#the way Steph was in college pre reboot

[weirdo-from-bonesborough]

Steph🤝Cass🤝Babs

Complex women aged down and simplified to fit the youthful Batgirl brand

[onceactresspdx]

Because I don't want to be THAT GUY in a comment section:

I got a response on a comment I made on a Fic, and yeah it's going to bug me.

I say this because how fans treat Tim and the Drake's annoys the hell out of me, The Drake's are very solidly just mediocre parents pre52. I didn't even mention the Drakes in my comment. I was talking about Jason and how his family is depicted for god's sake.

Abusive!Drakes is mostly fanon. Tim's mom is on a fundamental level pre 52 reboot not even really a character. Jack absolutely has moments of bad and/or abusive behavior, after he has had a traumatic brain injury and lost his entire fortune. But 90% of the pre-Janet's death Drake family is just two rich parents who are trying poorly to hide the inevitable divorce from their son, and are stressed enough that he occasionally ended up in the cross fire. Then the results of a man who woke up from a coma to find his wife dead and his son living with a billionaire Jack could not compete with in any way.

Sending a child to boarding school is not neglect. It is normal rich person behavior. All over the globe, rich people send their kids to boarding schools. I would even argue that sending your son away from a city who's number one cause of teenage death is murder, is actively protecting your kid. Kids who go to boarding school are measurably more likely to succeed in college, including poor kids who go to one. I say this as someone who was a scholarship kid to a rich person school.

In my years of reading DC comics, I would even argue that the Drakes are actually one of the few couples who aren't (for the most part) monstrously abusive to their kid. Bruce wasn't, then DC made him into one. Willis and Catherine where sometimes sympathetic but haven't been in years. Steph's parents are just Jason's but weirder. I could write a thesis on Cass's bio-family and it's relation to poverty and racism. Duke's whole family got fridged AND he ended up with a dozen bad poor foster families.

Like, the way DC comics and Batman comics in particular treat their rich parents vs the poor parents is stark. Obviously there a wealthy abusive parents in the comics. But most of the canonical poor parents are either not characters, or made into monsters that make an abusive!Bruce look better in comparison.

And for the poor families, the actual depiction of the abuse is more graphic, and has lasting consequences on the long term story, while Bruce hasn't had any one of them go full non contact outside of Batman Beyond. Oliver Queen is hit and miss (ha!) in terms of abuse depictions, as is any number of DC parents that you could use as an example. But the Drake's are not examples in canon by DC as abusive beyond what parents in the 80's and 90's would normally be.

[ectonurites]

I don't know if you'll know the answer to this, but with the recent outsiders story in urban legends seemingly having Duke to college and the way the batgirls are being handled...is the implication that Duke is older than Steph and Cass right now? :/

So… these are the exact sorts of problem that arise when writers refuse to actually nail down character age ranges!

I’m a bit behind on Urban Legends atm so I haven’t read the Duke story yet to really talk details on that, but the last age-related info we got about Steph & Cass was that whole debacle right around when Batgirls began where Cloonan and Conrad mistakenly said the girls were 13/14 in an interview, and then said they misspoke afterwards but didn’t really give a clearer confirmation.

Logistically, based on a lot of things (like their own previous stories just in post-reboot continuity, for Steph in particular- lets remember that for YJ 2019 Tim and Steph told everyone they were going to college before going to do the plot of that book, so yes she was old enough for college! And pre-reboot ofc she was already in college but it’s clear she was de-aged like Tim was with the n52 so that doesn’t still apply) they should be very late teens/early 20s at this point, in that ‘typical early college’ age range, but that’s not how they’re being portrayed in their main book. But we still don’t have solid numbers. So it gets us in these awkward situations!

[taggingtim]

Why I love Pre-Boot Tim Drake and why the Reboot has ruined him

I love Tim Drake.  He is my favorite comic book character of all time.  I’ve been really upset the past few days about what DC has been doing with him lately, and I thought it would be cathartic for me to write something up about it.  (No, this isn’t a rant about Tim being bi/gay; it’s a much larger problem than that. But I’ll get to that in a bit.) Bear with me for a bit of history, first.

When I was a kid I loved the Batman Animated Series.  I know this will lose me a lot of internet cred, but I always preferred the fourth season. In particular, I loved Tim Drake. He was fun and funny and I absolutely adored him.  I used to beg my mom to take me to the mall so I could buy issues of Gotham Adventures. For my birthday one year my parents got me a subscription to the comic, and I was blown away by the idea that I could have comics MAILED to my HOUSE.

Around middle school I started collecting Marvel comics, mostly X-men stuff.  I loved them, but when I started college I quit the hobby for financial reasons.

 Fast forward a few years, and I felt I was financially stable enough to start buying comics again. Rather than going back to Marvel, I decided to give Batman comics a chance.  I had no idea where to start, and when I found out my beloved Tim had his own comic series, I thought it was a perfect entry point into the Batman universe. I bought the complete series from a local comic shop and dove in.

 Tim’s Robin series was exactly what I was looking for in a comic.  He was very different from little Timmy Todd from BtAS, but I loved him. I built the rest of my comic collection around him, grabbing up every book that he was featured in, from Young Justice to Teen Titans to Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Red Robin, and many others.  I have random books from series like The Demon just because Tim was in them.

 So why did I like Tim so much?  What about this character made me so excited for more?  I found in Tim something that I had never seen in a comic book before: character growth.  Somehow, though he was written by many different authors over many different years, Tim managed to have a character arc that is consistent and makes sense. Sure, there were a few small bumps along the way, but on the whole Tim has always stayed true to his character, and he’s developed in a way that the big name characters, like Batman, never can.

 When we’re first introduced to Tim, he’s a young teen who has been neglected by his parents growing up. He’s smart, healthy, and strong, but he lacks so much self confidence and has little sense of self worth.  Tim notices Bruce’s increasing violence as he grieves for the loss of his son, and Tim knows he needs to step in and help.  Batman needs a Robin.

 For most characters, this would be the part where Tim put himself forward for the job.  But he doesn’t.  He seeks out Dick Grayson and begs him to come home instead.  It’s only when Batman and Nightwing are in danger and there is literally no one else to help that Tim steps up and dons the cape. And once he does, he’s constantly plagued by self-doubt, terrified he will screw up and leave Batman worse than ever before.

 From there, Tim undergoes intense training.  He never begs to be in the spotlight, doesn’t push to go out on the streets before he’s ready.  His goal is to help Bruce as much as possible.

 Here’s where I started to fall in love with him.  All that self-doubt, the constant need to be useful?  That’s exactly what you would expect to see from a child whose parents had ignored and neglected him.  He finally has a parental figure who sees him, who values him, and Tim does everything he can to make himself worthy in the hopes that Bruce will keep him around.

 This is the first example of character consistency that we see with Tim.  And it continues.  When his mom dies and his dad is put in a coma, you see Tim struggle to come to terms with losing the people he loves, but never had a relationship with.  Tim almost never mentions his mom after her death, because she just wasn’t present in his life.  When his dad recovers and decides to stick around, Tim struggles to build a relationship with him.  He’s plagued with guilt because he’s finally found the father figure he needed in Bruce, but he thinks that he’s supposed to feel that way for Jack.  It’s a running undercurrent in their relationship that creates distance between them for years.

 This is already so long, so I’m going to try to summarize a bit more.  We get to watch Tim grow up.  We see his awkward relationship with his first girlfriend, Ariana.  He doesn’t know how to treat her; he’s never had the opportunity to observe a healthy relationship.  But he tries so, so hard.  All of Tim’s relationships are awkward, because he’s never had a model of a good one. Steph is a great match for him, because she’s very vocal about what she wants and needs, and she isn’t afraid to call Tim out when he messes up, which is exactly what Tim needs.

 Big things happen to Tim. He’s stuck with Jean-Paul Valley, who slowly goes insane, leaving Tim to try to keep the city in one piece.  He’s infected with the Clench, a plague that sweeps over Gotham and kills everyone it touches, and barely escapes with his life. His girlfriend is sexually assaulted, leaving him to deal with the fallout.  His family moves out of Gotham, and he has to sneak back in during No Man’s Land to help.  His relationship with his dad has intense ups and downs, resulting in him being sent to boarding school, punished in a variety of ways, and generally caused a lot of trouble in his life.

 Then people start dying. Over the course of about a year in his life, Tim loses his girlfriend, his dad, a close friend, and his best friend, each of whom dies under tragic conditions.  Tim’s grief is intense, and he is understandably traumatized by the losses. We see fundamental changes in his character.  He changes his costume from something bright and cheerful to something darker that reflects his emotional state.  He’s more subdued, his adventures a little more serious.

 When Bruce first tries to adopt him, Tim literally creates an uncle and hires an actor to play him, just to avoid dealing with the situation.  Bruce has viewed Tim as a son for years, so to him the adoption is an obvious step.  For Tim, it feels like a betrayal of his father, and it takes a while before he’s ready to accept Bruce’s love, home, and a place in his family.  

 When Damian shows up on the scene, Tim really struggles with him, and not just because early Damian is a horrid brat who tries to kill Tim on multiple occasions.  Tim has always felt the need to earn his place with Bruce, and Damian constantly throws all of Tim’s biggest fears in his face—he’s not wanted or needed now that the “real” son is here, he’s not worthy of a place in the family, he’s not good enough.

 Tim tries to clone Conner, his best friend.  He’s lost so many people, and he’s desperate to get them back.  Conner was cloned to begin with and fully matured over a very short period of time; the technology clearly exists, so why can’t Tim use it to get his best friend back?  And if he can get Conner back, why not the others he’s lost?  He eventually gives up, but when he eventually gets access to a Lazarus Pit, he immediately wants to incorporate the waters into his process so he can revive his loved ones.  With Dick’s help, Tim eventually decides to let it go, but it’s such a poignant moment for the character.

 Then Bruce dies, and Dick takes Robin away.  Tim switches to the Red Robin persona as he travels the world, alone, trying to prove that he was right.  He has to deal with the trauma of losing another father, finds out that his girlfriend never died but let him hurt so much for so long.  His brother and the only close friend he has left both think his grief has overwhelmed his sense and that he’s gone crazy.  He’s utterly alone.

 The Red Robin series is such a great culmination for Tim.  He finds a place for himself as a hero, as a CEO.  He gets parts of his family back—Bruce, Steph, Bart, Conner.  He finally figures out who he wants to be and creates a place for himself.

 This overarching character development is what I love about Tim.  His many, many traumas impact his decisions, and you can clearly see how he changes over time as a result of them.  I didn’t even go into his development as a leader from his early fumbling with Young Justice to his strong leadership of the Teen Titans, or how his relationships with Conner, Bart, and Cassie develop so fluidly and realistically over the years.

 This is why I love Tim. Characters like Batman are static; nothing that happens to them will ever have a lasting impact, because in the end the character always returns to what they were.  Tim, on the other hand, has changed and developed A LOT since his initial appearance.  His growth has always been consistent and logical.

 When the reboot happened, all of that character growth was lost.  Tim was replaced with a jerk who betrayed his friends and cheated on his girlfriend.  DC has basically retconned all of this and tried to turn Tim back into who he was, but by taking away all of the things that have happened to him over the years, Tim has lost SO MUCH.

 I keep looking for my Tim in recent comics, and I just can’t find him.  It breaks my heart, because I love him so much, and it feels like he’s lost to me forever.  The most recent Young Justice comic series actually gave me hope; I felt like maybe, finally, someone was going to write Tim correctly.  He had his primary friendships back, his relationship with Steph was developing (even if they seem to have completely dropped all the development around Steph’s decision to let Tim think she was dead).  The actual book itself wasn’t fantastic, but it felt like they were headed in the right direction.

 Over the last few days, I read the Batman: Urban Legends books.  I actually read the Batman/Red Hood story first, which was fantastic.  I was really excited to read Tim’s story (though I already knew how it ended).  Jason’s character was handled so well, and he seemed to actually have some character development that will hopefully last.  I anticipated the same for Tim.

 But Tim’s story was awful. The plot was all over the place—kids are being kidnapped, so Tim has to join a pain cult to get them back?  He’s somehow helping Oracle with computer issues while simultaneously questioning witnesses?  He’s broken up with Steph, off camera, shortly after telling her how much he loves her, but Steph somehow thinks that they should have a caring relationship where Tim tells her what he’s feeling?  Bernard has somehow become a good enough fighter to stand side by side with Robin?  Tim STILL doesn’t have a code name?  Why is everyone suddenly hounding him about what he wants to do with his life?

 It’s just such a mess of a story.  If it didn’t end with Tim agreeing to go on a date with Bernard, no one would ever have even mentioned it.  There’s nothing particularly re-readable or enjoyable about it.

 I actually liked that they brought Bernard back. I really enjoyed him in the original Robin series. It’s been a while since I read that part of the series (I’m actually working my way back through it now).  I know Bernard always read as gay to me, yet somehow I felt like he was out of character in these books.

 And then, the climax of the story.  Tim is bi, or gay, or has at least agreed to go on a date with a boy.

 If this had happened in the pre-boot, when Tim was Red Robin and had an actual character arc, I honestly wouldn’t have had an issue with it.  I do think it would have needed a LOT more build up than it was given here.  Tim has always been a very introspective character, and we’ve been party to so much of his internal monologue over the years.  It seems very strange to me that such a huge thing just sneaks up on him out of nowhere when he’s never even thought about it before.

 But more than that, this story just feels like the final death blow for the Tim I loved.  The whole arc is about how Tim doesn’t know who he is or who he wants to be.  What will his hero name be?  Will he go to college?  What is he going to do with his life?  These are all great questions, and his answer to all of them is… date a boy?  

 Is this going to be his defining characteristic going forward?  From here will we just see Tim exploring and discovering his sexuality?  The Tim we have now doesn’t have a family, a team, a purpose, or even a code name.  Why was this the thing that DC decided to give us?  It feels like they wanted to make a gay Robin and decided it would be Tim because they didn’t know what else to do with him.

 It’s stupid, but I honestly feel like I’ve spent the past few days grieving the loss of a loved one. The Tim that DC is presenting now is just not the person that I knew.  Tim would never break up with Steph that abruptly for what he admits is no apparent reason.  He would never say “just call me Robin, since Damian’s out of town.”  Everything that I love about Tim seems to be gone, and in its place DC has given me a date with a boy.  

 Again, it’s not Tim being not-straight that I have an issue with.  I’ve never read the character that way, but it’s something I can live with. My issue is the way it was handled. Why not make Tim an actual person first, and then explore his sexuality?  Send him off to college!  He’s obviously thinking about it!  It’s the perfect opportunity to give him his own book.  He can move to a different city, choose a new name, and DC can introduce a whole new set of characters.  Figure out which parts of Tim’s backstory are still canon, and which have been dropped. Make him a person again, and then let him explore his sexuality.

 I know this post is all over the place, and I don’t have time right now to go back and edit it.  I just really needed an outlet for my frustration.  Right now it feels like there are so many people who are so excited about Tim being bi/gay, but they don’t know anything else about him.  I keep seeing people comment how DC has been “dropping hints for years!” with no evidence other than “he and Superboy were really close!”  I guess I’d just really like to have some dialogue with other people who are fans of Tim, rather than fans of Tim-as-bi/gay or fans of Tim-as-straight.

 Does anyone else feel this way?  I’d honestly like to have a dialogue about it with other long time fans.

[our-happygirl500-fan]

I think about the Young Justice comic that DC had plans for a lot because even just looking at the team and the cover I can already tell what the dynamics and maybe a few storylines would have been and it would have been so good!

There would have been three 'squads' within the team: First there would be Kara and Steph (Steph and Kara had become quite close before the reboot Kara helping out Steph multiple times in her Batgirl run and they even hung out in their civilian identities Steph showing Kara around her college campus, taking her to the movies and the two of them having pillow fights telling each other that they were each others BFF Kara for a brief time was Steph's super the same way that Clark is Bruce's or Kon is Tim's or Jon is Damian's).

Kara was stated that she would be the team leader most likely because she is the most respected of the heroes there having the 'S' and the immediate respect being a Super inspires. However in Kara and Steph's team ups Steph was often shown more tactical minded than Kara often coming up with the plans or what they needed to defeat whoever they were fighting while Kara had the abilities to actually do what Steph asked.

Typical Bat Super dynamic really.

So with Kara as the leader of the team Steph most likely would have been the teams strategist often giving advice and helping direct the team.

However I believe the major arc for Steph would have been actually ending up as team leader herself, (similar to how in the YJ cartoon Aqualad was leader before Robin took over), Steph is just as skilled as any Bat having trained with Babs, Bruce, Black Canary, Cass, Catwoman ect but the main obstacle for most of her hero career is that no one gave her respect, Steph has been a hero since she was 14 but she was a teen hero without a mentor or powers which was the reason for other heroes brushing her off. As Batgirl she was only just starting to get recognition for her skills and on this team I think Steph would have really established herself in the hero world especially since she rarely worked outside of Gotham.

Then there would be Miss Martian, Static, and Blue Beetle.

Miss Martian and Blue Beetle were both on the Teen Titans together so they have a pre existing dynamic and friendship (before MM left the Teen Titans after the fallout of the Titans of Tomorrow arc)

Static rarely left his own city yet teamed up with the Teen Titans a few times during which Miss Martian and him showed romantic interest with each other so if this comic had been made they would have probably ended up in a relationship together.

Blue Beetle and Static as the only 'guys' on the team the same age would have probably ended up in a close friendship.

Then there would be Damian and Irey as the two 'kids' of the team who would probably be forced together quite a bit.

  I have a feeling that Kara got Steph to join her team and when Dick heard that Steph was joining a team he made her take Damian along to teach him teamwork something he tried before by having Damian work with the Teen Titans but that generation of Teen Titans had a lot of a 'club' mentality and wouldn't accept any Robin who wasn't Tim Drake.

Irey might have ended up on the team similarly with Dick convincing Wally because he wants Damian to have friends closer to his age.

Irey and Damian's dynamic would have been mostly bickering (I am convinced that Damian would pull Irey’s pigtails at least once) but it would be really interesting to see them eventually move past that and become close friends. Especially considering Dick and Wally’s own friendship.

Especially when you consider that Damian didn't have much of a childhood due to the way he was raised and though Irey and Jai had parents who tried to give them as much of a childhood as possible they aged through most of their life until Irey stabilised the speedforce by breaking Jai's connection to it but Irey didn't 'grow up' in a normal sense that differentiates her from other kids which would have been really interesting to explore with Damian's own loss of childhood.

You could have also explored a bit on how Irey took the speed powers for herself leaving her brother powerless and while she did it to save his life maybe we could explore Jai missing his speed or Irey feeling guilty about it sometimes or maybe even Irey feeling jealous of Jai wishing she had the chance to be normal instead.

Lots of fun things to explore here.

There's also the fact that Steph would be closer with Damian and Irey than the rest of the team because 1. she's protective of Damian (and kids in general) and is trying to show Damian what a normal childhood is but 2. As mentioned before she's only started getting respect as a hero so while most heroes from her generation have been respected for years Steph has been fighting for just a chance to stand on that stage and only just got on around the same time Damian and Irey's generation have so she's sort of making a name for herself the same time they are making her more likely to respect them and treat them nicely than the rest of the team.

Steph as a super hero baby sitter is my biggest headcanon due to this as she's the one that respects the kids most. Steph and Static would also be the sort of level headed ones on the team since they rarely acted outside their own cities so they'd notice how bonkers things can get more than Kara or Jaime or Meg'an do.

Steph has also teamed up with Miss Martian before along with several other female heroes thanks to Kara's help and she also helped train Tracy 13 (Jaime's girlfriend) in hand to hand when Tim and Jaime brought them both to Titans Tower.

There's a lot of good story arcs and personal dynamics just waiting to happen by looking at this team and it's a huge shame that we never got to see them in action.

In conclusion:

[lysical-secondary]

You know speaking of Bab's and Cass, I was on DC forum and I saw that Tynion from TEC tweeted one of the things he wants to do most is re-establish Cass and Bab's relationship. Yeeaaah, I've been kind of griping about that erased bond and all but right now I'm partly thinking what's the point? Bab's was more influential then Bruce for Cass originally but now it's flipped. Bab's was also like a mother figure for Cass, but present Bab's feels like a teen herself. Unless she hands over Batgirl to -

2 to Cass or somehow gets written differently where Bab's feels more like herself as Oracle, how can they get re-established? Everything's way different now. Bab's is Batgirl, she's not Class's mentor (Bruce and Kate are) and she had nothing to do with bringing Cass into the batclan. Whatever dynamic they'll have will be totally different now. At least Dick and Damian's pre 52 core history has stayed intact enough for their relationship to stay the same.

Ha. Good luck to him because you’re right, there’s nothing there to support that relationship now. It’s gone. It was special and precious, but it’s gone. They didn’t bring Oracle back with Rebirth and frankly Batgirl Babs is kind of bland and while she’s supposed to be in her early 20s they draw her and make her act like she’s 16 or younger. 

They can say she’s as mature and respected in the family as they like, they’re not showing it, and Kate has definitely superseded Babs as the senior female character in the family. Just look at the names... It’s ridiculous because in Post-Crisis Babs was probably a contemporary of Kate, or even older depending on timelines. 

Honestly their entire set up for Batgirl in new 52/Rebirth was made for Steph, tbh. She had the attitude they want, she was at the correct place in her life, she was going to college, it’s so bizarre that they rebooted and shoehorned Babs into a role that really would’ve more naturally suited Steph. 

[ectonurites]

Thoughts on Batgirls #1?

Alright. Okay. So.

I think that if I were a new reader picking up this comic- someone who had very little familiarity with the characters, especially if I was a young girl maybe intimidated by the general comic scene (predominantly male, lots of over-sexualization of women when they do appear, etc), then I would have loved it. Like, 15 year old me would have been ALL over this. It's got a fun energy, the art is absolutely captivating and engaging, and I do feel like it gives you three distinctly different girls as the main characters, and right away the friendship between Steph & Cass is compelling.

Buuuuut as a long-time fan of all three of these characters, someone who knows how they have been and is very deeply aware of canon (both current and pre-reboot), I think the first issue was definitely a bit disappointing. I do also think there was a lot to live up to in terms of expectations and wants from fans- and there was no way they could have possibly done everything that these characters deserve off the bat. But even bearing some allowance for that in mind, it just tonally didn't really fit the characters all that well, even as they've more recently been depicted, ya know?

And honestly something... kinda startling but definitely informative about why things felt very Odd in the book was in this one interview the creative team (the co-writers and artist) gave where they uh...

AIPT: How old is Babs? Becky Cloonan: She’s in her early 20s. Michael Conrad: Like marginally older. She’s like, old enough to… BC: …old enough that it’s a little bit older. I think Steph and Cass are meant to be like 13 and 14, and our series. Is that what it is? MC: I think it might be a little bit older than that. We try and keep it vague. BC: When we came in, they’re like, Babs is like, out of college. She’s like, in her 20s. And these girls are definitely like in their mid-teens. Jorge Corona: I just had to check the other day because I was drawing a panel. I was like, “Wait, how old are these girls in this continuity?” I think they are like 17 and 16. Of that spectrum. (source)

Yeah. Babs was last before this book implied in the 28-35 range (during her most recent Batgirl run), and Steph & Cass based on everything that's been presented in this continuity should definitely be more in the later teens even if it's still vague. The fact that one of the co-writers had the idea of them being 13/14ish when that's like around the same/younger than when they were initially introduced in canon (Steph was already older than Tim when they met, him being 14 and thus her ~15, and Cass was introduced at 17) and would make them about Damian's age is just... yikes. That perspective informs a lot of the immaturity a lot of us feared from this book. So that just makes me... fearful that it's not gonna get all that much better on that front.

IDK. Overall I'm just having a lot of mixed feelings. On the one hand I'm just glad they're getting spotlight at all, but on the other I think a lot of us have wanted a book with these three for so long and the book we built up in our minds is just... very different from this thing we're getting, which is difficult to reconcile.

[ectonurites]

do u have any thoughts on the whole “tim is zapped to time prison” storyline? bc i feel like it could have been pretty interesting and a good way to bring back young justice/tim’s memories more immediately if it hadn’t been such a blatant attempt to just get tim out of storylines bc they had no ideas for his character

sorry lol u don’t have to respond i just kind of wish people talked about this storyline more? and the fact that tim lowkey became one of the only people in dc with knowledge of the other timelines (i think so at least) and nobody really addressed it?? like going into the next phase where people learn about other timelines after death metal.... tim should already know some of this stuff right?

YES YES YES OKAY LETS TALK ABOUT THIS this got incredibly long because I just have a lot to say (and i included screenshots) and i prob got a little off topic but. but lets get started anyways:

i haven’t read that particular storyline in a few months so i might be missing/misremembering some details here, but that whole ‘time prison + future tim’ thing was like. a really really interesting concept and the implications/impacts it has are a big part of why i liked tynion’s detective comics run as much as i did even with it’s flaws in characterization (such as treating tim like he was jimmy neutron boy genius and making steph..... be all ready to quit/breakaway from the team like that. the steph quitting characterization really started i think in batgirl convergence and unfortunately has haunted her since, even though pre reboot never giving up was like...... one of her defining traits. dc i hate you sometimes) 

i think that one of the biggest things that bothers me about the situation is how little we saw most of the other characters in the batfamily grieve (aside from steph and some with bruce, but again the way steph was portrayed just... hhhhhh. it very much reduced her to ‘tims girlfriend’ more than i’d have preferred) but otherwise like...as far as I can remember there was maybe one line in that monsters crossover thing where dick mentioned tim was gone, jason had a single line about avoiding the funeral in rhato, i dont think they showed any reaction from babs at all until after he was back, and the most for damian I recall is at the end of the 2014 teen titans run (#24) where he looks at... a case with the old red robin uniform Tim wasn’t even wearing anymore when he died? and that just bugs me. Instead of getting to see the actual funeral we get one flashback to it way after the fact once Bruce already knows Tim’s not actually dead

But at the time when they all DID think he was dead? the closest thing we see was in that same teen titans issue (#24) there’s a memorial-type ‘sharing stories’ thing after the funeral with tim’s titans friends but.... we don’t see something like that with his family. tim is a major presence in these peoples’ lives, they are his family, when he gets sent into time prison its even SAID how loved he apparently is

its just... idk. they all thought he was dead, and if they had put more emphasis on showing not just telling how that effected EVERYONE (not just steph) in the batfam, it might have felt a lot less like they were just putting tim away until there was a story idea for him. (like obviously I know they can’t make everyone’s stories revolve around Tim, but I’d have way preferred a detective comics issue of the funeral/memorial with the family than having there only be a teen titans one, I think it would have... held more relevance & meaning... but instead they just went right into that monster crossover story instead of lingering on this)

but then the Tim story itself once it does pick up way later, with titans tomorrow/future tim coming along having that whole “tell conner you’re sorry” “who’s conner?” exchange with current tim... that opens up A LOT of things to think about, and I think was pretty interestingly done if i’m remembering correctly. future tim recognizes the timelines are different, and ya know goes off to try to change things further ("whaddaya got there?” “a gun to kill batwoman” “NO!!!!”), theres lots of fighting etc etc the good guys win as we expect, but once that’s all settled tim’s left there with this whole. thought process

which ya know is the big indicator there’s weird timeline/reality fuckery going on (or also the read here can be that tim and kon are so connected across all space and time that their bond can transcend anything even timelines and realities and reboots... “and they were soulmates” “oh my god they were soulmates”) 

ANYWAYS lets not forget that tim isnt the only one who learns about this other timeline stuff during this whole situation!

Brother Eye has records of future tim’s timeline, and cass & steph see who they used to be! and as soon as steph finds out ‘holy shit i was ROBIN and BATGIRL?’ she also desperately wants to know more! which then a bit later leads into young justice 2019 where instead of going off to college like they told Bruce they were gonna, Steph and Tim go get the help of Zatanna to see what might be going on in their brains with these timelines and weird feelings (as we see in flashback form in yj 2019 #5)

and HOO BOY DOES SHE FIND THINGS! she gets in there and finds out that oh yeah, their brains had very much so been tampered with, and with her magic she undoes some of it, by unlocking memories, and Tim finally remembers Conner! (also in case u were wondering, that panel is specifically a callback to this one from yj 1998 #17 when Cissie quit the team)

one thing that I think is weird/interesting/idk if it gets... properly addressed even, was that Zatanna also poked around Steph’s brain too and she didn’t remember everything? Might have something to do even with how Tim had been in time prison, might have taken less work from Z to open things up because of that? Who knows

additionally i wanna call attention to how he said “That entire chapter of my life” which... leading into my next point a bit... strongly leads me to believe even though he’s remembering some things he definitely does not have ALL of his memories back (because theres a lot more than just the young justice ‘chapter’ of tim’s life that was drastically changed by the new 52 & rebirth) 

BUT moving on, i wanna bring up this part from later on (after they figured out that there was a crisis that caused things in the world to change, which is why their memories/brains were messed with) in issue #16

so yeah, I think it’s indicated even though Zatanna brought back some memories and opened up his brain a bit, there’s still many holes, and some things seem more like dreams rather than memories and he’s probably unable to tell which are which on his own to some extent. (also for reference the real thing that Tim thought was just a dream is... likely yj 1998 issue #1)

So based on the things i’ve brought up here (which are the things I remember off the top of my head, I could easily be accidentally leaving shit out LMAO i haven’t fully read through any of these books in at least 3 or more months now) I think it’s safe to assume that Tim definitely has a head start on getting back his memories before Death Metal happens, but that it was by no means a complete thing. So the after effects of Death Metal are probably just gonna... be a little less drastic for him vs most other people because it was already happening, but it’ll be kinda filling in the remaining gaps? 

And like you said he is absolutely one of the few people that already knew about about the timelines/the fact that these crises have happened and changed things, but pretty much all the other young justice characters are also aware that there was meddling in the timeline/that multiple timelines and alternate universes like this exist since they were all together as a group when it got explained (in like. yj 2019 #15 i believe is where most of the explaining happens) (and cass as well is aware of things to some extent because of her and steph’s interaction with Brother Eye) but the difference is that Zatanna didn’t go into everyone’s brains, so they aren’t dealing with the same memory things as Tim (and possibly Steph? because again Z DID go in her brain, she just wasn’t able to unlock all the same things as she did with Tim) 

but yeah in general i SO wish this was explored more, both in canon and in fanworks (fanworks tho... that can still happen >:3c). Memories hazily coming in for Tim while Kon and Bart are able to confirm or deny things, him dealing with conflicting memories and feelings about his past as they trickle in... like I think we’ll start to see these types of things moving forward across a lot of titles with Infinite Frontier (i BELIEVE dont quote me on this but I BELIEVE the person writing Damian’s upcoming solo had mentioned in an interview that the memories coming back of the other timeline aren’t going to be an all at once thing but will be more gradual for most characters) but the fact that it theoretically had already been happening for Tim for MONTHS and we only got that one crumb indicating it in #16 of it instead of any actual exploration makes me SAAAAAAD 

[ectonurites]

I firmly believe that Tim should be at least 18 now

Oh agreed. It would... make way more sense. 

The last time I recall Tim getting his age spoken on-panel was in Detective Comics #937 back at the start of Rebirth

and now technically he is talking about something he’d already begun work on previously, doing like a whole batman bullet train system under Gotham using some abandoned subway tunnels. So like you could if you were so bold interpret this as him saying he started this when he was 16 but isn’t necessarily still 16. But like, that is a stretch and more of a loose interpretation. So pretty much canon really still just wants us to believe he’s approximately 16.

But it would have made WAY more sense to just let him be around 17 or 18 for Rebirth so that it wouldn’t be playing into the weird Teen Super Genius™ characterization for him to have a ‘should i go to college now???’ plotline. Like, it’s still a prestigious school so it’d still be a high stakes thing! But making him be accepted into it at 16 to start next semester is just... stupid. Tim is smart but making him that smart is just... doesn’t feel like actual Tim. 

Also the fact that we see Steph having her own apartment that Tim stays at sometimes just like... what 16 year olds do that??? hello??? Like I know pre-reboot Steph was usually a little bit older than Tim, but I can’t remember if that’s the case here but still???? It just... would make more sense for them to be about 18. 

Also in general having one character stay the same age for a decade while you age up other characters around them that are in their life makes no sense. Damian AND Dick have both been confirmed to age by the time of Rebirth compared to New 52, why the hell has Tim not???? 

Anyways now that we’re in Infinite Frontier I’m hoping we maybe get the ‘Tim finally gets to age’ arc. He deserves it. 

[ectonurites]

Most of this conversation so far was more based on pre reboot Tim, and the plot you’re asking about there is from Tynion’s Rebirth Detective Comics run! So things characterization wise are definitely a bit different, especially because that run was coming in on the coattails of New 52 Tim who was not really... Tim (like LITERALLY. part of that version’s origin story included ‘Tim Drake’ being a witness protection alias name) and while this run started to bring him closer to who he was before (like fixing his backstory) he still wasn’t quite the same.

But still definitely worth bringing into the conversation:

He had been accepted to a college program he was really interested in and spent a lot of time struggling to decide whether he would put a pause on being a hero so he could go do school (i don’t think the intent was truly to never pick it up again though, I just skimmed through a bit bc i haven’t read the whole thing in a few months and came across the screenshot below) or just stay in Gotham.

He made the decision to go and then got in the time prison situation, and when he got back out and that all settled he changed his mind again. In the end of the run he & Steph told Bruce they were going off to the college but when they drove off they instead went to go see the Justice League and launch into the events of Young Justice 2019.

I don’t think (unless im super misremembering) this plot was about him giving it up for good and was more about how he just couldn’t be Red Robin in Gotham at the same time as being a student out of town, so he needed to pick one for right now and see where it went. And even if it were about fully quitting, the fact that he backtracked on it and ultimately did pick hero work over school I think still supports the ‘quitting for real isn’t something he’d be able to commit to’ idea.

in general tho Tim’s characterization in this arc was, while better than the new 52 version, still influenced by it (this was really still some uh. Timmy Neutron Boy Genius shit rather than the original ‘Tim’s very smart and really good at detective work but still a relatively normal dude’ version) this version of Tim was still way way WAY more tech/engineering focused than he used to be, so him pursuing that for school and possibly prioritizing it over hero work is like, consistent with how he was written within this book specifically but I personally think is not something pre reboot Tim would do. Pre reboot Tim multiple times put hero work ABOVE school, without hesitation. He didn’t really like school that much, he was a fine student when he wanted to be but it just was not his biggest priority (remember how he hired an actor to play a fake family member instead of letting bruce adopt him at first and a big part of why was so he could get that guy to take him out of school? and how he literally didn’t finish senior year of high school because of events during Red Robin and just went on to work at W.E. instead?)

So that story’s something to consider, but I think ultimately getting back to the point of my original post, even if he did try to quit because circumstances demanded it (family, school, etc), he wouldn’t be able to stay away for long/permanently. His strong sense of duty and need to do what he is capable of doing as a hero would drag him back in.

obviously people are allowed to like headcanon what they want but every time i see people say they think Tim is the most likely to stop being a vigilante and go back to civilian life i just want to wave this young justice panel around

and this one from years later after he had quit because of his dad and then returned to being a hero