#the riverlands podcast

[theriverlandspodcast]

Hey everybody-- Wanna hear a story about an axe murderer and the sympathetic hangman?!

[izuku]

i know they've got a podcast going

[chicagobeerpass]

Chicago Beer Pass: Rocktober

Welcome to the Chicago Beer Pass: Your ticket to all the great beer events happening in and around Chicago.

On this episode of Chicago Beer Pass, Brad Chmielewski and Nik White are still on their Oktoberfest journey, and this time, they have cans from Riverland Brewing. As they knock back a couple of tasty fall Oktoberfests, Brad shares his recent journey through the suburbs. Over the weekend, Brad checked out Riverlands, Obscurity Brewing, Fox Republic, and a stop at Yorktoberfest. There is so much happening around town this month that the guys are getting a bit behind on episodes as they try to squeeze in every ounce of nice weather they can.

Having issues listening to the audio? Try the MP3 (89.2 MB) or subscribe to the podcast on Spotify

[storycityapp]

Join us this Fri 7pm MST/ Sat 1pm AEDT for Adventure Hour where we live read/argue/laugh our way through a choose your adventure with its creators. Will our first mission as a secret extraterrestrial agent end in victory or flames with creator Rebecca Dawson? Tune in to find out at the link in the bio. #adventure #livestream #twitch #podcast #rpg #tabletoproleplay #chooseyouradventure #adventurehour #storycity #barmera #southaustralia #riverland https://www.instagram.com/p/CovHkgByTnC/?igshid=NGJjMDIxMWI=

[visenyaism]

can’t stop thinking about the meninist podcast episode with alys as a guest. aemond twirling his hair and making heart eye at her while he tells her how smart she is (for a girl/bastard/Strong). criston is wondering what kind of spell she cast on him but really he’s just a horny 20 year old guy who discovered milfs for the first time

leaked alys rivers guest ep script:

criston: my prince this woman is clearly not only baseborn and unvirtuous, but also some kind of sorceress.

alys: a witch? I’m cultivating my dark feminine energy. the targaryens literally used it to conquer westeros, it is a powerful force that lesser men like the andals feared too.

aemond: yeah criston how do you not know about dark feminine energy it’s literally sooo important

alys: they called visenya targaryen a witch too and what was she?

aemond: a conqueror.

alys: a conqueror. good boy. anyways listeners you can use the code MUCHANDMORE at your village apothecary for 30% off my prenatal vitamin supplements make sure to stock up before us burning the riverlands makes supplies difficult to come by

criston: wait what

[horizon-verizon]

The ASOIAF fandom discourse online is dominated by bitter incels and male supremacists who were infuriated that Stannis, the character they projected onto got a (GRRM confirmed canon) villainous ending so they’ve tried to manipulate and dominate discourse around Stannis and Daenerys for years. I’m happy to see the tide to turn in our favor and Daenerys’ fans critiquing and pushing back against their laughable essays and podcasts.

Anyone with a brain and reading comprehension skills can clearly see that Stannis, FAegon and Euron Greyjoy are foils to Daenerys’s hero’s journey, the “lies she must slay”, anyone who says otherwise is a side character/NPC stan, a contrarian or misogynist.

It's so interesting that Dany is the "slayer of lies" in such a big way, it really gets into an inevitable intersection of philosophy and politics. I wrote a anti-Euron Greyjoy post HERE,

So I won't get into why Euron is a "liar" and a "Father" of lies both the normal way and a sort of spiritual way where he's looking to just exploit magic, belief systems like the Seven, and people through magic to dominate others and realize a dream of being a "god". And because he's supposedly inspiring and charming and seemingly devoted to his crew, he also seems to inspire a lot of blind loyalty.

So he often reminds me of a wannabe cult leader, megalomaniac as he is. It parallels the horror of the Greyjoys' invasion of the Riverlands pre-Conquest, which brings up some interesting queries of Dany re-represented by her ancestor Aegon I (who though not altruistic seeming, maybe) burning down Harrenhal to a less-maintain husk of itself, even thought still "inhabitable." The ironborn, specifically Harren Hoare and his ancestors later, also drove several people many people (esp lower classed) to death to build their castle (as Maegor did the Keep)...

Anyway, FAegon is probably not only not Rhaegar & Elia's son and thus not a claimant, the people who have raised him up (possible Blackfyre supporters) have constructed lies around him to try to control the future throne that way. A simulation of autonomy.

Finally, Stannis doesn't believe in the religion he's using for his own ends, but he does see the results of its very real magic. And as as a TikToker named HallowedHArpy notes, he not only doesn't believe in this god that Melisandre worships and is suing Stannis for to spread the religion, she herself was a real slave and is still a sort of "slave" to the priests' construction of the faith of R'hollor. She is an agent of this spread of religious lies about the Azor Ahai and she will go through a crisis where she realizes it was Dany all along. Which will be painful...as fire is both a cleanser and inflicts pain that can "shock" a thing out of it current state.

Those men & every Dany anti/doubter prefer to think of this fantasy series as purely political...too bad for them.

[mr-culper]

I completely understand why Aemond laid his head on Sylvi's lap. I would do that too. He simply needs to pour out his heart to someone to make himself feel better. Don't we all do the same? He needs someone outside the family, someone who is clever enough to give a good counsel, someone who understands that one deals with a very vindictive person so God forbid to betray him, and someone who is merciful enough to be kind and gentle from beginning to end. That's a mix of things that only money could buy. In fact, Aemond paid Sylvi for being rubbed his back.

People in this line of work are usually very knowledgeable about life. Maybe Sylvi is not a person of great scholarship – according to her, she is from among the smallfolk – but what she said Aemond, he would never read in any book. There are things that you cannot read in books. This calls for, as it says in the Proverbs of Solomon, to apply thine ears to the words of knowledge. Maybe that’s what he’s doing.

But why did Aemond choose Sylvi instead of someone else? She has many women in her brothel. She has men, too, for that matter. One of my versions is that Aemond comes to Sylvi precisely because she is a madam: there is no one above her; she is the last level of authority in that place. If it were some simple worker in the brothel, then everything Aemond said would still reach the madam, but this way he communicates with her direct.

There's one fact that must be kept in mind: Aemond would absolutely not disclose any military or strategic information that could be sold to his enemies. He is far too clever and astute to screw up so epically. And in any case, he came to pour out his soul, not to discuss a plan to attack Rook's Rest or gain control of Riverlands.

I think Sylvi knows that Aemond knows that she has no chance in this regard. She can't sell what he tells her, and they both know it. I suppose, it was one of the reasons he has chosen her. She has solid experience, she understands life, she understands him, she can't sell what he tells her, and she steer clear of his business. She doesn't put pressure on him. If Sylvi takes the liberty to admonish Aemond One Eye against losing his temper again, she does it very carefully. Perhaps, he likes that. Her businesslike approach.

That's an excerpt from the new episode of the Tea & Rum podcast about Aemond's first brothel scene.

To find more episodes go to Boosty.

[morewinepod]

And don’t miss my chat with Candi about the penultimate episode of House of the Dragon Season 2. We talk new dragon riders and Riverland developments. Candi will be back soon for a Season 2 wrap up.

[kitewithfish]

Wednesday Reading Meme for June 14 2023

What I’ve Read A Bride for the Prizefighter by Alice Coldbreath – This Victorian working class romance was rather charming – I got the rec from Reformed Rake, a podcast by a Tiktoker who blogs about Romance novels of many eras. I found the main character really convincing, smart, and kind – when Mina’s father dies, she meets her estranged half-brother who arranges a marriage for her to HIS estranged half-brother, William Nye, the son of his father’s mistress who became a prize fighter and runs an pub. It felt like the descriptions of Mina’s life in the pub and her connections to the staff working there were very natural – Mina is a ‘lady’ in the sense of having an innate sense of decency and the value of other human beings, and Nye has a backbone of kindness to him that comes thru his rough demeanor. I felt like this had, as the Reformed Rake podcast noted, some genre connections to the Gothic, which was right up my alley. Very good romance, you can really see WHY these people like each other.

Love for Sale bypoisonivory - (https://archiveofourown.org/works/29789145) – Roy Harper, Arsenal, is between jobs and ends up hooking up with Jason Todd, who just happens to have an apartment to lend him – it’s just a business deal. Right? This story is a bit of a soft sugar daddy vibe, it works for me, despite being rather a departure from how I think about Jason Todd.

What I’m Reading: The King in Yellow 25% -static – The next story up for me would be In the Court of the Dragon The Count of Monte Cristo – 9%

Babel – Xing Book Club – 53% - I was just thinking about how much the first part of this novel reminds me of Naomi Novik's Scholomance series, in that it feels like someone taking the challenge of Hogwarts seriously - what does it mean to be brought into a magical community from the outside? What are the real impacts of magic on the world? What are the economies of how magic works? And who does this world consider expendable? We have just gotten to the point where Babel's students are going to be forced to confront those questions outside of England as adults who have been raised to serve the powers of the Empire of Britain. It's brutal and great.

Kristeva Powers of Horror -back in the swing of things! Chapter 2 for the end of the month.

The Witch King - Martha Wells - p80 - Solid introduction, feels akin to Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation in some details but its also very much its own thing 

What I’ll Read Next Book Club is going to need to pick some more books soon but until then I have a breather.

Library books: The last unicorn by Peter S. Beagle The way home : two novellas from the world of The last unicorn by Peter S. Beagle.

Unnatural magic by C.M. Waggoner. For the wolf by Hannah Whitten. Horror: a very short introduction by Darryl Jones.

The spear cuts through water bySimon Jimenez. Helpmeet by Naben Ruthnum.

The artist's reality : philosophies of art by Mark Rothko ; edited and with an introduction by Christopher Rothko. Into the Riverland by Nghi Vo Fun home : a family tragicomic by Alison Bechdel.

Owned and need to read: California Bones, Raven Song by IA Ashcroft, Kraken's Sacrifice by Katee Robert, Even Though I Know the End by CL Polk, At The Feet of the Sun by Victoria Goddard, Tamryn Eradani's Enchanting Encounters Books 2 and 3, Like Real People Do by EL Massey, Tom Stoppard, Invention of love, Smoke Gets in Your Eyes by Caitlin Doughty, "You Just Need to Lose Weight" and Other Myths about Fatness by Aubrey Gordon, Alisha Rai Partners in Crime, the Right Swipe

[cinaed]

February 2023 Monthly Media

* = Rewatch/reread

Anime/Cartoons

Bob's Burgers 13.12-13.13

The Legend of Vox Machina 2.07-2.12

Books

Fate's Edge by Ilona Andrews

Magic Tides by Ilona Andrews

Mirror Kingdoms: The Best of Peter S.Beagle by Peter S. Beagle

How to Sell a Haunted House by Grady Hendrix

When the Angels Left the Old Country by Sacha Lamb

Cultish: the Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell

Lavender House by Lev AC Rosen

The Mighty Nein: The Nine Eyes of Lucien by Madeleine Roux

Into the Riverlands by Nghi Vo 

Manga/Comics

 Herding Cats : a Sarah's Scribbles collection by Sarah Andersen

Oddball : a Sarah's Scribbles collection by Sarah Andersen

Oglaf (ongoing webcomic)

Order of the Stick (ongoing webcomic)

Wilde Life (ongoing webcomic)

Podcasts

Dungeons and Daddies

Not Another D&D Podcast

Worlds Beyond Number

TV Shows/Web Series

Abbott Elementary 2.14-2.16

Cook versus Con 2.11-3.04

Critical Role 3.47-3.49

Dimension 20: Neverafter 10-13

Ghosts CBS 2.13-2.15

Hell's Kitchen 21.14-21.16

Leverage: Redemption 2.13

Miss Marple 1.01-2.04

Next Level Chef 2.01-2.02

Poirot 8.01-13.05

Video Games

80 Days

[warsofasoiaf]

Indeed. I’ve written much about this. @racefortheironthrone and I did a podcast with History of Westeros and Radio Westeros. Just to touch on some of the shorter sections

The Vale: The territory of the Vale would mean that the famed Knights of the Vale likely see a significant amount of dismounted fighting in the narrow mountain passes. So I would see that these knights would be quite skilled at fighting both mounted and dismounted, as befits the strategic situation.

The Riverlands: We see a strong outrider and archery tradition, so I’d imagine that the Riverlands has a deft hand in light cavalry and forest ambush, using bows and ambush techniques to hit invading armies and blind outriders to harry an invading force before they can force a decisive battle at a river crossing. 

The Westerlands: The Westerlands has the money and metallurgy to invest in good armor, if there’s any cataphractoi in Westeros, they’d be found in the Westerlands. My guess is that the irregulars are not just raiders but potential skirmishers and potential disposable assets. 

The Stormlands: The Stormlands has violent weather, a variety of terrain features, and a dearth of manpower when compared to the Reach, so I envision that Stormlander soldiers make up for it in quality and flexibility, mastering different terrain and using the most suitable equipment for the task at hand: bows and maces for knights, swords for lightly-armored infantry, and so on.

Dorne: What is written is already fine, but also remember, javelins, javelins, javelins. Dorne likely uses javelins on horse as well as for skirmishes and ambushes, very similar to the Almogavars. 

-SLAL

Hey Maester Steven, sorry if you've already answered this and I just can't find it, but what would you sqy are the specialities of each region of Westeros when it comes to war? I have a general idea from the top of my head (like the Riverlands exceling in guerrilla warfare) but wanted to hear your thoughts in full.

I think I've talked about this here, but I'm happy to go into more detail. When it comes to regional specialties of warfare, in some cases it's easier to identify trends than others, but I'll try my best. (I'm also going to tag in @warsofasoiaf, because I'm pretty sure we've talked about it this quite a bit over the years.)

Keep in mind that we're talking about minor variations in Westerosi armies that all tend to have a mix of knights, infantrymen, and archers working together in a late medieval paradigm of warfare heavily based on the Wars of the Roses.

The North:

The North's speciality doesn't seem to be a particular kind of military unit, but rather a kind of unique elan: when we consider the campaigns of Roddy the Ruin (the Fishfeed, the Butcher's Ball, First Tumbleton, and Robb Stark (Whispering Wood, the Battle of the Camps, Oxcross), one of the common trends is that Northern armies often employ a strategy of unexpected reckless charges that rely on aggression and shock to panic the enemy.

Usually, this leads to an emphasis on Northern cavalry as the core of the Northern army, but we also see Northern infantry do the same thing at the Battle of the Green Fork. There are some tactical differences - Roddy tended to favor frontal assaults at the risk of heavy casualties, while Robb Stark favored the use of maneuver and ambush.

Here, I think the North's ferocious if somewhat ill-disciplined approach is evocative of the Highland charge and the way it absolutely devastated much larger, European-trained professional armies until the Battle of Culloden, when changes in bayonet technology and a shift in bayonet tactics to solve the problem of the Highland targe.

The Vale:

We haven't seen the army of the Vale in operation, so we can't really talk about a specialty. However, it's worth noting that repeatedly in the text, the Vale's army is referred to as "the knights of the Vale," so that fits with their general tendency to cultural traditionalism.

The Ironborn:

Essentially equivalent to historical Vikingers, they're very good at naval warfare, marine operations, and ambushes on relatively undefended targets. They make up for the generally smaller size of their ships through the use of misdirection and distraction.

On land, they fight in (somewhat outdated) infantry shieldwalls and are heavily hampered by their total lack of cavalry, and their relative lack of archers. Moreover, they have no experience of fighting cavalry and tend to break in the face of a cavalry charge. They're pretty poor fighters on land, to be honest.

The Riverlands:

As we see both in the Dance of the Dragons and the War of Five Kings, the Riverlands has a historic tendency of constantly being invaded by all its many neighbors. While they often come out on the losing end, they tend to be more successful when they eschew conventional medieval tactics and instead focus on guerilla warfare or defensive setpiece battles that emphasize the use of rivers as natural barriers.

The Westerlands:

Because they have the most money - which is quite reminiscent of the Burgundians - the Lannisters can field multiple large armies with lots of extremely well-trained and equipped soldiers: their melee infantry aren't spearmen but well-armored men-at-arms and well-disciplined pikemen, they have a lot of knights. However, Tywin also has a tendency to use various less-disciplined fighters - the mountain clans, free riders, and some very questionable choices in mercenary companies - as expendable raiders.

The Reach:

As the most populous region in Westeros, the Reach has the advantage of massive numbers - it's full army is 100,000 strong - which gives it the option of attacking from all directions in force, essentially have the luxury of not having to choose where to spend its resources.

Moreover, the Reach is known for its knights - although as noted in my coverage of ACOK, there's something very weird going on with the numbers of the Reach's cavalry, because it seems like it only has 20,000 knights, which seems rather low.

The Stormlands:

The Stormlands are known for their marcher lords, whose men are the best longbowmen in Westeros. They're also known for their castles, so I imagine the Storrmlands are particularly good at defensive siegecraft.

Dorne:

See here. The Dornish have their own entirely different tradition of warfare that bears almost no resemblance to the rest of Westeros, it's a mix of phalanx warfare, horse archers, and jinete light cavalry.

[theriverlandspodcast]

[fedonciadale]

If these people aren't interested in literary analysis, why are they in the fandom of a literary work? Parallels drawn between characters aren't stan activity, it isn't transformative work, it's a matter of literary analysis! I don't personally like Lyanna, she's a non-character in canon, and all fanon interpretations are too much of a mix of NLOG and MPDG for my taste. But I'm not gonna deny there are parallels between her and Sansa's story theme-wise just because I don't like the girl. Sansa fandom is the most Ned-critical fandom. We don't say she's like Ned because we loooove Ned and hate Catelyn or anything. It's just canon. Her and Ned being alike in temperament and how they deal with their trauma isn't a matter of discussion. (Also their blind trust to people that doesn't deserve in AGOT.) Lmao Ned-Sansa isn't even a new thing, it didn't even originate within our fandom iirc, general fandom, neutral bloggers, podcasters, "BNF"s etc have all noted that, because it exists in the text. Jenny is a Riverlander girl who is also descendant of First Men, connected to Ghost of High Heart and via her song to Catelyn. Who else are we gonna draw parallels to? Daenerys? I don't like Alysanne either, Fire & Blood break that illusion of Jae and Aly being Good King & Queen. I know Sansa will be a much better queen than her. But there are some parallels there too.

And none of these has to mean anything, they don't have to lead anywhere. We certainly don't expect Sansa to die in birthing bed trapped in a tower. People point out out these things because they are just there, within the text. What I'm wondering is why this anon and others like them are so threatened by these? If they don't exist according to them, then they turned out to be silly little headcanons, what's the harm in them. Unless of course they see it they know it they just don't like it, and think if no one mentions it, it'll go away. Just because they decided to close their eyes to canon and prefer to drown in their fanon and headcanons doesn't mean we're gonna pander to their delusions.

Remember they got mad at AU fics where Sansa fights or where she has a connection to Nymeria I guess it was something like that, FICS no one claims to be canon. They are that confused about what's canon, what's fanon, what's literary analysis, theorizing and what's creative writing. And then they dare to lecture us 🙄 They are a whole circus 🤡🤡😂

I have the suspicion that they set up a prayer circle, and actually believe that coming into our ask boxes again and again will have a weird effect on GRRM and TWOW.

It’s their superstitions. They actually think they’ll ward off being disappointed by TWOW by repeatedly ‘cursing’ the inboxes of Jonsas.

I don’t have another explanation, because it is as you said. The parallels are there. Nothing will make them suddenly drop out of already published texts.

[jonsameta]

Hi, me again!

jesuiscommejesuis: Haha, I’m on that GoT grind and probably won’t stop until the premiere 😂. I trust your opinion so unfortunately you have to endure another ask from me. Anyway…I think that most of us have considered the possibility of Jonsa not being canon. (RIP me if that happens). But my question isn’t about whether Jonsa will be or won’t be (I’ve come to terms with the fact that GoT will end how GRRM always intended it to end) it’s about what that possibility means for all of the evidence, clues, foreshadowing, etc that we’ve gathered. In your opinion will Jonsa not happening render those clues and meta meaningless and we were all crazy after all? Or do they take on a new meaning and point us in a new direction? Idk if that even makes sense. Maybe I’m just afraid that Jonsa wont happen and I’m afraid for no other reason other than that I will have looked and sounded insane to all of my GoT friends and had nothing to show for it. Also do you know of any interviews or blog posts from GRRM possibly supporting Jonsa? Same for D&D? Or any other people on or working with the show? Thank you so much!! 💙

—-

Hi there, 

The thing about theories is they’re like Shrodinger’s cat. If you try to be objective, you have to entertain the possibility that it won’t happen, but it can’t completely be false until proven otherwise. That said, some theories are more probable than others because there’s material within the text that thematically undoes something. This is because a story’s themes (which differs depending on the adaptation but it can’t be completely divorced from the original source either) define its boundaries because they essentially make up “the heart of the story”, not the plot. They give the main characters a moral dilemma that drives their journeys. Considering the themes of the story - both bookwise and showwise - Jonsa is very probable because it answers a lot of long standing character arcs that go beyond these characters and provides a bookend that Jon/Dany cannot considering R+L=J. 

I think anything in this story has to be considered according to the politics - even the fantasy part because the personal is political. With such a spread out story only the themes and the morality dilemmas of politics that the smallest moment can have is what holds it all together. And I think the strongest argument for the probability of Jonsa comes from a structural level of gauging the politics. 

Jon’s parentage is a political game changer and the way it’s been built up it cannot just be for personal angst - especially when the element of his parentage revealing him to have a higher claim than Dany is brought up. It doesn’t just affect him or his relationship with Dany. It affects Westeros and Dany’s own longstanding goal.

Jon may not want to be king, but Dany is walking in as a very unpopular figure into the North and the way she has gone about her campaign hasn’t improved her reputation and only worsened it. And Jon himself will lose popularity after having 1) bent the knee to a Targaryen, 2) consorting with a Targaryen and 3) being a secret Targaryen. 

Dany doesn’t realise that although Jon claims to have pledged his allegiance to her, it doesn’t mean the North has fallen into her hands. He’s only lost their faith from this move so no Targaryen by themselves could claim the North. Not to mention the Vale and Riverlands are more allied to Sansa than they are to Jon. To regain faith, he’d have to separate himself from Dany and the Targaryen identity a bit and yet he would need a political statement that only a marriage alliance to Stark could give if he were to remain in power. There’s also the pesky issue of how unknowingly Sansa and the Starks have more allies than Dany (or Jon without the Starks) does as everyone comes into Winterfell. So Sansa’s constant label as “key to the North” and the importance of marriage alliances becomes very important here. He can’t become king or even gain the faith of the people (back) without Sansa. So in that case, the whole notion of the Pact of Ice and Fire being fulfilled through Dany and Jon falls apart because Jon will be seen as an outsider. @thelawyerthatwaspromised has even written a post with infographics to make it easier to understand. It’s like R+L=J resets the chessboard. Ironically, what the audience thought Jon/Dany’s union would do politically is far more possible through Jon/Sansa. 

As it makes sense as a political match, the possibility of it happening and impacting the narrative increases a lot more. The original outline also matters here because clearly the pseudo-incest tag didn’t stop the author. However, as the characters haven’t interacted in real time in the books and aren’t close, there’s not much people have asked him about it nor has GRRM has said about it unless you count his vague reply once (”I won’t say more than I’ve already said in the books”). I’d say there’s more to be gauged from what he has to say about other ships that fandom roots for, that isn’t as positive as they make it out to be - whether Jon/rya, San/San, San/rion or Jon/Dany. It’s not obvious because he hardly shuts down possibilities but there’s reading between the lines. It becomes more obvious through a process of elimination. It’s also because Jon/Sansa as a ship tramples over so many ships that fandoms have banked on that people are inclined to dismiss it rather than re-evaluate the pre-existing ships. 

On the show, people have been coy too but there’s more content to gauge as the characters have already reunited and their dynamic has become pretty pivotal to the story. Where D&D shut down Dany and Yara ever happening, in the same panel they evaded a question about Jon and Sansa being developed as a romantic relationship. Aiden Gil/lian commented on how Jon’s parentage opens up possibilities for Jon and Sansa’s relationship romantically at the end of season 6. Sophie was asked about it post season 6 and she said it was possible because it’s GOT and they’re cousins. Also, there’s Liam Cunnin/gham who once liked a Jonsa fanvideo lol and he barely has any likes. Sophie has said it’s possible, even as she joked about how it would be embarrassing to film an intimate scene. Kit has somehow avoided all questioning, but he has some pretty interesting reactions regarding Jon and Sansa’s relationship - either in the words he chooses (”She twists him like no one else”) or how over the top his reaction to Sansa is when he talks about how annoying she is to the point where he’s flushed and red and laughing while saying “I’ve gotten really animated now that Sansa has come into the story”. Bryan Cogman has a lot to say regarding this dynamic too, that he even wrote Jon leaving Ghost behind to watch over Sansa when he left for Dragonstone. 

What helps regarding the show is that it’s not just the actors or the political sense, but the camerawork and visual framing that makes their scenes very confusing because they’re shot as a romantic couple about to happen, as @trinuviel has explored in her series “All is Subtext”.  This notion that it was “framed” or “shot” that way was echoed by multiple reviewers and podcasts through season 6 and even into the beginning of season 7. 

A huge part of this was because it very subtly visually paralleled more positive romantic ships on the show like Ned/Cat, Jaime/Brienne, Robb/Talisa, Sam/Gilly, Missandei/Greyworm and even Jon/Ygritte to some extent. This is over a course of 7 episodes under 5 different directors. One of the most telling scenes for me was when they did two back to back parallels to Ned/Cat and Jaime/Brienne after Jon chokeholds Littlefinger over Sansa and they go on to give a Jaime/Brienne-esque goodbye. The same director Mark Mylod directed both the season 6 Jaime/Brienne and season 7 Jon/Sansa goodbye. Bryan Cogman even confirmed that the Littlefinger chokehold was meant to parallel Ned doing the same over Cat. 

But in my opinion, what weirdly cemented it was how Jon/Dany contrasted Jon/Sansa’s dynamic and framing. There were a lot of structural decisions made that undercut the Jon/Dany “romance” and made Jon/Sansa look more compatible and romantic, which is something I explored in my “Undoing Romance” series. Again, this is looking beyond the actors. The biggest tell for me was that they never got a first kiss so romantic tension was never released but just dissipated over plot exposition. Moreover, how is it that Jon and Sansa have more parallels with romantic ships than Jon/Dany do? Why do Jon/Sansa have more Robb/Talisa framing through season 6 than Jon/Dany through season 7 if that’s what’s happening? Why was there no passionate first kiss like theirs? We just skipped to the sex in between a montage that told us how related they are. 

Why didn’t Jon look back at Dany when Jorah did, while he looked back at Sansa? Why does Jon react more violently to Sansa’s suitors than to Jorah? Why are these characters caught in triangle with interlopers, who pose a political threat but are also interested in one romantically? Why is this dynamic given so much importance where there’s tension but also there’s emotional vulnerability that pours out contrasting Jon/Sansa’s and Sansa and Arya’s season 6 and season 7 battlements scenes respectively. Why did they reveal R+L=J at the end of season 6 - the season in which people questioned what the hell was happening in the Jon/Sansa dynamic and a whole season before Jon met Dany. Both season finales also teased conflict because of political claims that change because of R+L=J. Where his parentage reveal, relieves Jon/Sansa of the direct incest factor because it biologically distances them, it makes Jon and Dany biologically more related - especially because she’s heavily inbred herself. 

So it is a situation of “will they/won’t they?” but even more subtly because the cast and crew always skips past discussing it and with Jon/Dany happening people take it as accidental chemistry. There’s no heavy dismissal from the TPTB though when there could’ve been or laughing at it like Tormund and Brienne, which is totally for laughs and a show ship. What they do keep saying is that this relationship is key to watch and you have to wonder: why is it so important? To me it’s not about the actors chemistry or singular scenes. It’s about the story’s intrinsic narrative structure and the camera framing that makes the visual subtext convey more than the text does. 

The show frames Jon and Sansa’s relationship is odd because we know they weren’t close and Arya was his favorite and yet they take up quite an important part in each other’s arc at this point, where they both want to trust each other completely but don’t and yet their vulnerability comes out most around each other in these last two seasons. They’re being built up more slowly than Jon/Dany and more subtly so while people expect a full blown romance, I expect something more subtle, more quiet and thus emotionally rewarding for these characters individual and collective arcs. If it happens, D&D are building it up as a plot twist/game changer because it’s related to politics. But it’s not to say there can’t be emotional catharsis too because these characters have a lot of issues that they answer pretty well. 

Hope that answers your questions. 

- lostlittlesatellites

[boiledleatheraudiohour]

BLAH 93 | A Song of Ice, Fire and Water, with Sean T. Collins

Ice and fire, snow and sand, Stark and Targaryen, Others/wights and dragons--that's the dominant binary for the series, obviously. However, water is also a key "element" for the setting in general and the books in particular.

The Iron Islands, the Riverlands, Dorne, and the Stormlands are all characterized by their relationship to water. House Greyjoy and House Velaryon and (though less prominently) House Redwyne derive their power from the water. The Rhoynar remain a water-based culture, centuries removed from the Rhoyne. The Rhoyne itself was the locus of an entirely unique form of magic, with water wizards and their giant turtles, and the Bridge sequence shows some of that magic is there still.

The smoking seas around Valyria are, apparently, truly full of horrible creatures. Back in the day there were the Deep Ones and remnants of their culture remain to this day, both in that oily black stone architecture and in the legends of the squishers and the merlings. The Drowned God and krakens look set to play a major role courtesy of Euron Greyjoy's fleet.

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[agameoftragedy]

re Bran vs Euron

I’m back again with vague musings following the Not A Cast podcast (@poorquentyn @bryndenbfishasoiaf) that became publically available yesterday, regarding Bran IV.

The guys and their guest were talking about why Bran isn’t going the way Euron is and they mostly focused on the family members and support system Bran has around him, where Euron (probably) didn’t have that in the same way. I don’t disagree with that as a possible factor, but I think there are much greater factors at play that tend to be cultural, and even personal to Bran and Euron as individuals.

Behind the cut because I go on for a while:

So first to caveat that we don’t know a great deal about Euron’s childhood. His father Quellon seems to have been less Old Way Ironborn-ish than his sons turned out (marrying a Piper, etc), though that doesn’t guarantee he was a better father (in my mind the Balon-Quellon relationship may have been similar to the Tywin-Tytos relationship). So a lot of this will involve extrapolation.

But I think an important thing about Bran is that he wants to be a (Kingsguard) knight, with the innocent view of what that means. I’m sure Bran would happily have the fame and prestige, but it’s also the great deeds and protecting people. This is partly cultural on the mainland - it’s a dream for many boys to become knights, but as a Northerner it’s less automatic and I think it’s indicative of Bran’s personality. He wants to help and protect people and be Good.

We don’t know for certain what Euron wanted to be when he grew up, but I suspect the cultural influence is different on the Iron Islands. With the way Balon (and Victarion) turned out, I think this generation of Greyjoy boys was well subjected to the tales of the great reavers and the Good Old Days when they controlled the Riverlands, etc, etc. There’s a good chance - if Euron idolised anybody - that it would have been some great reaver and this would fit as a lesser version of what he has become.

In some ways knights on the mainland and reavers on the islands are analogous in terms of fighting for their systems, but there’s obviously the crucial difference: knights are supposed to protect and defend. Reavers go out and attack, stealing from other peoples and taking thralls. This mindset also has the implication that the Ironborn > everyone else. This is what Euron may have been idolising as a child even before Bloodraven got to him.

So then (presumably from what we know) each of the boys suffer a malady to be having Bloodraven-y dreams, but these seem to vary quite a bit. Euron has no obvious physical disability (nor that anyone ever mentions as a historical thing), except possibly whatever’s going on with his eye, and even if he were blind in that eye he still seems to have good vision in his other. Bran, on the other hand is clearly physically handicapped through the loss of his lower body - at present he can’t look after himself even on a fairly basic level.

Naturally these present very different psychological effects and potential narratives to the boys. Bran struggles with the loss of his dreams, being ‘broken’, being considered lesser by some people. Being able to fly (as he understands it) is an alternative to his prior dreams that have been snatched from him, and possibly even to where the books are up to he might trade all his special abilities to have things be back the way they were, with him able to walk and become a knight. I think Bran would just consider himself different to most people.

But for Euron... if he was ill it may have taken him some time to recover, but coming back to (close to) normal and maybe being able to fly, etc? I think Euron considers himself to be superhuman. His culture may have already taught him that ironborn are better than others and can take what they want, but he is not just ironborn but has powers above and beyond any ironborn we’ve heard of - he’s better than (almost) everyone. He’s above everybody else’s rules - why take thralls when you can take slaves? Why take risks when you can cut their tongues out? Why only warg animals when you can warg people?

Going back to the Starks, I think Bran also benefits from being the son of Eddard Stark. As we know from Arya’s POV in AGOT, Ned would invite all kinds of people including smallfolk from around Winterfell to dine with them - Ned shows his children that everyone, including smallfolk, are people. People with lives, knowledge and experience, who you should treat well. Bran has wound up warging Hodor already, of course, but it was in desperate circumstances when it was somewhat necessary for their safety. I am sure temptation will remain given his physical condition, but I think it is largely down to culture, Ned’s influence and Bran’s own good nature that he will not go anywhere near so far as Euron (and Varamyr Sixskins).

We don’t know if Quellon or anybody else made a true attempt to reform Euron, if perhaps he started out with socio-/psychopathic tendencies. Quellon might have technically been a good man and well intentioned father in a Tytos Lannister vein, but undermined by their own culture‘s admiration of violence and ironborn superiority (and his presumed obliviousness to abuse between his children).

Honestly, there’s not much about Euron that speaks to me of potential neglect or familial problems whereby otherwise he could have been kept on the straight and narrow. Perhaps with his eye he always felt different/special, and perhaps he got some teasing or different treatment for it. Maybe if he demonstrated himself to be a warg he might have been shunned, but that’s a) not a rumour put around about him and b) it didn’t seem to occur to anyone that it might have been used against the brothers he killed, so I doubt it. I just don’t really see insecurity in him as he appears in AFFC that suggests he was good but somebody failed him so he took a dark turn.

Perhaps in a different culture with greater taboos against the kind of monstrous actions ironborn reavers do on the reg, maybe Euron might not have gone (so) bad. I’m sure there are Westerosi fathers who might have tried to beat it out of him (to dubious effect, possibly just making themselves his first victims).

But I really think in this case it’s just that some people should not be allowed special powers and cannot be trusted with them. The only failure was that Bloodraven did not recognise that Euron was one such case. But then that may have spoken to his desperation, if he knew how soon the Others are coming...