#the rings of power rant

[galstelperion]

It needs to be said...

Elves with distinct and diverse appearances are always going to be 100x better than the long-haired, white, skinny, androgynous look copy/pasted everywhere.

I genuinely do not believe anyone who calls this "ugly" because it's simply not. Everything from the costuming to the jewelry and casting is carefully thought out and executed perfectly.

[neyafromfrance95]

the real most delusional saurondriel shipper is sauron bc why was this mf all smug and smirking when he revealed he was sauron and then got pissed when galadriel didn't accept his marriage proposal? what did he expect? she was crying throwing up screaming about how much she hates sauron for killing her daddybrother throughout their entire time together. bro had the self-insert shipping goggles on.

[southernmotherofdragons]

My best friend and I have a podcast and right now we are covering The Rings of Power.

I am so disappointed at the amount of negativity I am receiving from “Tolkien Scholars” who think that women don’t have the right to speak on anything Tolkien unless we can speak fluent elvish and have the Simarilion memorized.

Tolkien wasn’t written for you to gatekeep and leave rude, entitled comments about. Our podcast name is “Girls Nerd Out” and that seems to enrage them even more.

And I’ve read the Simarillion.

[cottoncandiescupcakes]

I'll be honest to TROP haters that say it changed too much of the material I mean YES you are right but so did Peter Jackson

I mean Arwen's fate being tied to the ring? Arwen saving Frodo instead of Glorfindel, a very important elf who actually slayed a Balrog, who wasn't in the movie at all. Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and Old Man Willow also weren't in it

Also Tolkien would not be happy with Gimli's fairly undignified treatment at times and also, Legolas' 'orc counter',

Legolas would never happily kill he'd do it to save his friends and for Middle Earth obviously but he's not going around treating killing orcs like a kind of action game having fun doing it

Also for some reason he made Thranduil almost a kind of villainous character though he does redeem himself(and looks fabulous doing it) and I do love this character but it's not very accurate to Tolkien's thoughts on this character which was literally just a typical elf king who mistrusted dwarves and rightfully imprisoned a bunch of dwarves sneaking into his woods

Other things Peter Jackson did he made Denethor WAY more evil than in the books. In the books he's basically a broken, grieving very old man who has lost it versus a 50-60 or something year old man just ranting and raving on everyone going crazy

Another thing Peter Jackson did was make the evil characters like Saruman and Grima way more obviously evil than the book ones so you could instantly tell they were evil, which, the point was they decieved people. That Grima decieves no one lol.

So he changed a LOT of things about the characters, for example Aragorn looks like, you know he's going to be heroic from the start just because of Viggo's bearing but he's meant to be almost unattractive and scary looking at first, then slowly becomes like a king and noble and handsome looking. Like, Pippin literally says he looks foul LMAO I am serious. Boromir is meant to be the perfect gallant hero looking one who almost falls to temptation where Aragorn is meant to look very rough but have a noble heart, they are like foils

I love those movies but he also did change a lot but especially, PJ's work glorifies war too much for Tolkien's standpoint, not always but there are scenes he's making it too action-y while other scenes, like Boromir and Theoden's deaths, are perfect

Also BOTH these works make the elves too serious, like, the books have the elves singing, playing tricks and carrying harps and flutes around and acting more like Medieval fairy ring style elves at times along with being more serious also, they had both sides to them while adaptations just make them very dignified

I know Gil-Galad misses his harp guys HE WAS ALREADY SINGING. Free him

[dinosaurswant2rule]

The trouble with Galadriel and Sauron (what the show won't admit)

Before I get hate, I fully love these two as a couple, I ship them so hard as Sauron and Galadriel and Halbrand/Galadriel (although I would have loved it if Halbrand was just a "dude" with a tragic past not the source of evil incarnate)

Anyway my rant/analysis

I've read a lot of META analysis about TROP/Galadriel / her mistakes/not spotting Sauron for what he is etc / the mistakes blah blah blah

And while it's also fascinating, my big issue with the show and to a certain extent the analysis around her is that and I'm going to say this SUPER LOUD

SAURON IS RIGHT (in a way that doesn't for Celebrimbor or any of the other character he interacts with)

Yes Sauron absolutely manipulates Galadriel and she refuses to acknowledge a whole series of things.

But, for Galadriel, everything he says to her on the raft is absolutely true in a way that's not really true for anyone else.

Galadriel IS cast out by the elves for wanting more soldiers, for hunting an enemy that they think is gone even though she is TADA right as well. Sauron is not dead (Gil Galad grhhh) They don't listen to the commander whose hunted him for decades and led them across the battle field, they just say go away crazy cat lady - we'll just ship you off to Valinor.

And it just annoys me so much, that it's never really acknowledged EVER in the second series that she actually has a point

Sauron WAS NOT DEAD

That they put her directly in the path of someone when she is angry/damaged/still mourning a brother she lost a long time ago

And when they find out she is right, they have GALL to blame her for it utterly

Elrond AND Gil Galad both lay the blame entirely on her shoulders, no one ever really openly says, sorry Gal we put you in a super awkward position where you could have been open to Sauron's manipulation, that's on us and sorry for not believing you first time around.

Elrond - twat that he is (although I love him) sorta says sorry in between make out kisses at the last possible second, but it would have been nice for him to actually acknowledge it that Auntie Galadriel actually had a point.

He also has the nerve to say that she had the darkness calling to her/ that basically she was just an idiot falling for Sauron's tricks / is possibly corrupted herself

And Gil Galad never admits it either - still vaguely regarding her a sparkly flea he can't quite swat

And that she's somehow created another problem he's got to fix

While I totally admit that it's partly her fault, I just don't think the show is written as desperately fair to Galadriel and the second series suffers a lot from it.

After building her as the angry/damaged/virtually invincible soldier in the first series, the second series determinedly knocks her down a peg or two and the men folk take over (this is not helped by the fact that she no female relationships in the series) even though t hey are partly to blame for this mess.

I guess it frustrates me that the writing /the way the cast describe it - they tend to just go with the Galadriel made a horrible mistake and look at the consequences / she really did want what Sauron offered line

Anyway, back to Sauron, HE IS RIGHT, she is dumped by the elves and he is the only one who vaguely sees her as AN EQUAL, he actually finds her determination and obsession APPEALING rather than a turn off.

And it's seen as this monstrous thing, he's saying, but it's not really because he's being absolutely true

I SEE YOU AS AN EQUAL, AS MY MATCH (romantic or otherwise)

LET'S WORK TOGETHER

BECAUSE YOU'RE AMAZING

It's hardly a shock that Galadriel found this appealing because literally no man in her immediate world has ever really acknowledged in this way before and by the end of the series, he stills wants her!

(and in my opinion even after the roundhouse kick to the face)

(this might be one of the reasons her connection is so deep with him)

Celembrimbor on other hand, Sauron plays on his vanity/his desperation/his loneliness? as well as his basic good nature, but he doesn't really ever hit the nail on the head in terms of his situation (cause frankly Brimby is living a decent life)

Sorry this always bugs me when I watch it/read it

Just had to ran this out, much love to the TROP fandom and HALADRIEL and SAURONDIEL too, you're all amazing

Elsa out x

[meldelen]

So earlier today I saw this post on Instagram musing about Sauron in The Rings of Power, labelling him as a tragic antihero, with a chance to be redeemed/saved but definitely doomed, and that making him quite attractive as character to the viewer public.

I was thinking about it and I don't really think this fits nor Sauron as character in Tolkien's original lore, but neither in The Rings of Power. Sauron is not an antihero. The way I see it - and I accept I might be wrong - an antihero is a character that has some redeeming qualities, someone who acknowledges that has done evil - which Sauron does - and might repent or not, but unlike Sauron they're not driven by malice, they do not actively seek to cause harm even if they will do at some point, and maybe they will act to repay/compensate the evil done in the past - whether is recent or not - or try to do so, even if it implies the cost of their own life. Morally grey characters, if you want, but with cracks of light in their grey armor.

If you're familiar with Game of Thrones, which is rich in these kind of morally grey characters, I see, for example, Theon Greyjoy or Jaime Lannister as examples of antiheroes. I also want to see an antihero in Raistlin Majere - if you're familiar with Dragonlance - even if he has done so much more evil than the other examples. But the more I try to apply it to Sauron, the less it convinces me.

Maybe Halbrand could've been that antihero they're seeking, if Halbrand had been real. If he had wanted to take the redeeming path he claimed to have when Galadriel was still open to him.

But there's no Halbrand. There's only Sauron. And you can see all his choices as Halbrand, even if claimed to try to find his peace, are poor choices, because he's driven by selfishness: letting Diarmid die and getting the Kingfisher heraldry instead of helping him, abandoning the castaways in the raft to save his own skin, stealing the guild crest instead of earning it, and over all, faking a Southlander king's identity even if reluctant at the beginning. Now, if Halbrand was real, for how much pain he might have caused in the past, this doesn't look like a redeeming path. This doesn't look like antihero, or someone who can be redeemed/saved. Neither is he doomed. Because these are his personal choices, and he could do differently, only he just doesn't want to.

As Annatar, he shows more clearly what he is: a villain, a pure chaotic evil being. The Rings of Power works wonderfully showing he's incredibly complex, and cunning, and clever; not one-dimensional, not the typical mwahahaha villain he was hinted in Peter Jackson's movies because the narrative didn't allow him to be expanded further, but a villain, nevertheless. He does evil, he causes pain, and he does it for his agenda, because he wants it this way, even if he believes otherwise.

The discourse about wanting to heal Middle Earth, creating perfect peace and rejecting Morgoth's sadism and cruelty is just the discourse of a narcissist that believes his own lies and thinks he can do better. Celebrimbor tells him: "You're truly the Great Deceiver. You can even deceive yourself." He really believes in his own bullshit. He thinks he can do better, if only everyone else bend to his will and do what he says when he says so.

Shipping is fun and nice but if you watch season 2 with attention it's horrifying to see what Sauron really is throughout his actions, even if wrapped in the fairest of forms. His cruelty, brutality and outright Machiavellian way with which he manipulates and punishes are painful to watch, specially in the case of Celebrimbor, whom he also admired as a craftsman. The repugnant and sadist way in which he tortures and brutalizes Galadriel with Morgoth's crown because she has rejected him again was the foulest allegory of rape I've ever seen, in an universe where you'll never get sexual scenes, while loyal to Tolkien's lore. He claims not wanting to hurt her, but moments later, he enjoys her agony. And the way he excuses and absolves himself of all his sins because he wants to heal Middle Earth - save, and rule, he sees no difference - and because he was brutalized by Morgoth is also painful to watch.

Tolkien wrote - more or less - that he had served/suffered so much under Morgoth's grip that he fell easily back into evil, for he didn't want to see anymore other way of doing things. He could've done differently, but the exit to his labyrinth was to throw himself at the feet of Manwë and the other Valar and be judged, accepting whatever punishment went to him. But he didn't, for he's unmeasurably proud and would not suffer such humiliation. Beautiful how the show puts in Halbrand's mouth the words "and I knew if ever I was to be forgiven that I had to heal everything that I helped ruin", nice excuse to not go to bow to the Valar. I like to think he's also terrified of the idea he might be cast into the void where Morgoth is now, and be reunited with his former torturer. He made no secret about how much Morgoth still haunts him. But all this sadness and suffering absolve him of his present sins? Of course not. But he thinks they do.

In the end what we have is a cruel, prideful, sadistic, vain and narcissistic villain who has convinced himself that the world will be better when he rules it, and in his mind the order he wants is the suppression of Middle-Earth's people's free will. That doesn't mean he could not have good feelings; as I said, he felt respect and admiration for Celebrimbor, he rejoices at the beauty and peace in Númenor and Eregion - which he'll later destroy - and whatever he feels for Galadriel is genuine as well - it is moving to see how easily he admits and displays his feelings -, but that works as long as they respond to his wishes. When this turns differently, he starts breaking his toys, even if with Galadriel he takes a great amount of patience.

But these genuine feelings are not redeeming qualities. Neither is he doomed, as I said before, he could walk away from this path, he just doesn't want to. He thinks he's the good guy, compared with the monstrosity Morgoth was, he only will use whatever means he needs to meet his ends. And there is not love - the way we understand it, a selfless act of self-delivering - in anything he does, neither towards Galadriel who gets a special treatment in comparison to other characters - Mirdania for example - because unlike the latter, Galadriel means something to him, he sees someone with a similar pride, a similar ambition. What he fails to see is that Galadriel is not driven by evil and malice, because he's unable to recognize that evil and malice in himself.

So, in the end, not antihero, but villain. The worst kind, refusing to see that the real illness of Middle-Earth is himself. As Galadriel very well puts in, "You want to heal Middle-Earth? Heal yourself."

We know he won't listen, and that does not make him tragic either, for tragedy is something uncontrolled, left for the fates, and he is conscious of every step he takes, even if when something fails he lets himself get taken in a wave of rage and despair, as the pathetic being he really is.

The real tragic antihero here has always been Adar. At least him, for much pain and destruction he might have caused serving in Morgoth's/Sauron's armies, wanted something better for his Uruk, and was able to put his pride aside for a different outcome, even if it was too late for him. Now that's a redeeming quality.

[celedrielarchive]

pity those who only watched the trilogy and based their impression of Galadriel and Celeborn solely on it. In the wider legendarium they have several versions of their meeting and story and all of them are extremely romantic and beautiful.

I love them falling in love in Doriath, and Galadriel leaving everything and everyone behind and staying there and even in Middle-earth first and foremost to be with him, and him later leaving everyone and everything he knows behind to travel with her.

I adore the version where they met in Valinor too, i think this one would make for an amazing on-screen adaptation. Elvendom in Valinor is in a crisis and falling apart, Galadriel of the Noldor is ready to push back against Feanorians, and suddenly she comes across a Telerin prince Celeborn who shares her convictions wholeheartedly. They fall in love and become a team, fighting together, then deciding to leave for Middle-earth together. Celeborn builds her a boat and they both sail to Middle-earth not caring for anything they left behind, or if the Valar would disapprove of their departure. And again, since then they are a team, a united front, and a constant for each other amidst the ever-changing world around them, “fighting the long defeat” together.

Can’t wait for Rings of Power to bring this beautiful dynamic to life on screen once Celeborn makes his debut at last!

[mvashnic]

All caught up, it's so good...! Elrond study.

[self-destructinganimal]

I will never understand people dunking on Elrond being responsible for allowing Sauron to rise back to power because he should have *checks notes* pushed Isildur into Mt. Doom to destroy the ring.

You all do realize that you don't commit evil to defeat evil right? What makes him better than Sauron at that point?

Not even getting into the fact that a) they didn't know the ring had so much power they were just worried about the possibility (Elrond and Cirdan) and b) Isildur is basically a dear friend to Elrond - they've fought together and had their king and father die at Sauron's hands, you don't kill your friends because they don't follow your advice, you try to continue to guide them. Which is what Elrond did and the tragedy is that Isildur was concerned and was traveling to seek Elrond's council over the ring when he was killed and the ring lost.

And then guess what, it was Elrond's love for Isildur's line and his care and guidance of them which led to Aragorn being able to fulfill his own destiny and play his part in the final defeat of Sauron so miss me with this "he ShoUlD hAvE PuShEd hIM!"

[troublesomesnitch]

Book Sauron vs. Movie Sauron

(and why people complain about Rings of Power's portrayal of the character. In my opinion). Nerd rant I guess.

I think a big reason why a some viewers are unhappy with RoP Sauron is that there is a big discrepancy between Sauron in the books, and Sauron in the Peter Jackson trilogy. And most people have probably only seen the movies (which is fine, I am not a book purist and I have personally only read 1.5 of the books, and tbh I found them pretty boring.)

But anyway:

In the films, Sauron is an entity. He can’t take physical form. He is evil incarnate, a nameless fear, a flaming eye etc. Whereas in the books, Sauron is way more of a person and actual character.

We only hear stuff about him from other people, but he does have a physical form. Sauron personally tortured Gollum, and Gollum was later able to describe his appearance to Gandalf, saying that he was missing some fingers on one hand from when Isildur defeated him. We also learn from Eomer that Sauron had approached Rohan wanting to buy horses from them. Rohan refused, so Sauron just stole the horses instead - but his initial intention was to buy the animals fair and square, with normal human currency. At a "great price" according to Eomer.

Recently I also read that Sauron had apparently become somewhat fond of Shelob and jokingly referred to her as his cat lmao. That is mentioned in the Shelob chapter in The Two Towers. Just little things like that make a huge difference. I cannot imagine movie!Sauron making jokes like that.

Mordor is also different book to movie. In the books, there are some farmlands in the Southern parts of Mordor, which makes sense because orcs do need food obviously. Return of The King says this:

"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Nurnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges.”

In Tolkien’s own illustrations, Mordor also looks a little bit more normal.

All that to say: if your idea of Sauron is an evil-incarnate entity who has no physical form and only talks in raspy, wheezing Black Speech, then yes, it is probably very grating to see Charlie Vickers running around with hair bows and pretty little ringlets falling in his face, being sarcastic, flirting with elf-maidens etc. But I personally don't think there is anything inherently un-Tolkien about it. Despite Tolkien's vocal dislike of allegory, Sauron is a pretty obvious allegory for the devil/Lucifer - he is quite literally a fallen angel taking on various forms to tempt and charm people into doing his bidding. I think the true evil-incarnate character is Morgoth. Sauron is more likely to weight his options and try for a diplomatic solution before throwing all his resources into waging war on people.

[loulialy]

Elrond: You see, the name Galadriel actually means "to have the sheer gall"!! Appropriate, isn't it?

Gil-galad: ...

[galstelperion]

The strangest Tolkien fandom history rewrite I've seen lately from people who make hating the show their entire personality is this shift in pretending that The Hobbit films were just as lauded as the original trilogy.

[capspotatoes]

renaming lotr and rop to ‘if people listened to elrond we wouldn’t be in this shit’

[roprot]

I'm a little confused by some people expecting realistic outcomes and wear and tear out of RoP — and then calling it lazy writing and cheap props. GoT was formative and introduced a lot of people into the genre, creating a standard for big-budget fantasy TV. But that show, and HotD, are basically gritty faux period dramas with fantasy elements. Over-the-top things come across as silly since we've been taught the rules of the story. Characters die like we might. Things rarely turn out well. No, a Galadriel in Westeros would have no reason to jump off a ship. Two major characters wouldn't meet in the middle of the ocean. An expedition force would not arrive in the nick of time to save a no-name village if we hadn't seen them trudge in mud for at least half a season and lose a quarter of their men to mutiny and fever. ...but RoP is set in Middle-earth.

To me, Tolkien has always been far gentler, far more mythical. Unlikely things happen for a reason. Heroes overcome great danger. People believe lies and make decisions based on vibes. Even with horror elements and death, there are songs and poems and hope.

(And yes, elves and humans wear clean clothes given the option. (And Míriel's 'printed armor' is a fancy fabric in the style of her armor THINK, MAN, THINK. (Though I do not like their make-up in general.)))

Picking RoP apart as if it was meant to be hyper-realistic drama for a strictly Western audience — by which I mean, kind of understated — is a bummer move. By failing to understand the tone you do yourself and the show a major disservice.

[remusjohnslupin]

I forgot to make a post about this last week (or maybe I needed time to process what I saw), but addressing my fellow Tolkien fans out there: Did anyone else feel the urge to scoop their own eyes out with a spoon after the whole 'sympathetic and misunderstood orcs who just want to stay with their families and don't want to go to war' debacle?

Misunderstood orcs. Misunderstood. Orcs. Who don't want to go to war. ORCS. They actually showed an orc baby being held by its orc parent.

Once again... ORCS.

I am so glad Christopher Tolkien died in 2020.

[ghostofashina]

months after rings of power season two, i have to be honest. they tried so hard to appease the so called hardcore fanboys by erasing, sidelining, killing non-white characters they shot themselves in the foot.

this is will be a long rant, but mind you: i do not hate nor am i an anti-rop. quite the contrary: i loved the show. and especially because i loved it, i am TRULY disapppointed with what they did this season.

first things first, what the actual fuck did they do to arondir? and please, do not blame it on bronwyn's actress leaving the tv show. let's face it as it is: incompetence from writers.

they had a whole vengeance arc right in front of their faces. they had all that ent-wives scene that would've worked wonders with a vengeance arc. and they chose to do nothing with it.

they sidelined arondir to the point he was basically a babysit to isildur and his new girlfriend — fine, he felt responsible for theo, but theo himself was also wasted. you only had arondir coming to scenes to show up some cool tricks and gone for the entire season.

where's the weight of his loss? where's the impact of this loss on his character? there's nothing. nothing. the character is empty. they did no justice for a character who spent the entire season fighting to protect people he lost!!!!

and yeah, what about his entire arc with adar, the main antagonisty and biggest conflict? oh yeah, they gave it to galadriel. :D

i am sorry but that ""alliance"" between adar and galadriel meant nothing to me, it spoke nothing to me, because that wasn't her arc. it was arondir's. if we wanted to bring adar close to the main cause in defeating sauron, arondir was the best choice. he faced adar as an equal, he earned his admiration, they've built an entire connection throughout season one and you want me to care about his union to galadriel?

and yes, their union would've worked better with arondir between them. because unlike galadriel, he had the nuance to see adar as an equal since the start even when they were enemies.

and it's so fucked up that the whole conflict they settled up since season one meant NOTHING. like, if you were not gonna make the whole forgiviness thing REAL, than at least make the vengeance real. they faced each other ONCE in the entire season and it's so fucked up, so rushed, arondir is deadly injured in one second and the next he's totally fine, as if nothing happened.

where does it make justice to that character? where is the justice to his development? you take his whole arc and give it to another character, and now you can't even give him a proper ending to his conflict? you can't even build a decent continuity?

i could make a whole other dissertation of how adar also felt flat because his arc was attached to galadriel that way, with no weight with the development of their connection. and how that betrayal was not only rushed, but it showed how galadriel wasn't made for that union — she had zero fucks to give about him in the end.

and i'm not gonna even bring valandil to the conversation, because he is another non-white character that they just discarded at the first opportunity. they acted as if valandil always knew isildur was alive, for the amount of no fucks he seemed to give. once again, no weight for the loss those characters faced.

this is so awful i feel like the first season with all its problems is still better than the second season with all its glory. and not only that, but as someone who truly enjoyed that show, it killed my entire hype and joy in watching it. i'll give another chance when season three arrives. but i'll not trust it. i don't think they'll do it any more justice.