#the only people that matter to them are each other (and criston and then later alys)

[navree]

those takes you and anon mentioned are even more disappointing knowing they come from Alicent stans lol.

i’m only watching this show for Team Green, including Otto. give me a family tragedy that only comes with one so utterly devoted to each other. who love each other completely. reminds me of this gif set featuring Nell’s quote from Hill House - spoilers for character deaths and CW for suicide and blood:

https://at.tumblr.com/alicent-criston/when-we-die-we-turn-into-stories-and-every-time/cvfwingluyrr

I've seen that gifset before, it literally makes me wanna curl up and die, I feel so sad for them all the time D:

The story of the Greens really shines when you realize that this is a family that loves each other dearly and will do anything for each other. The most important people in their lives are their family, and they will drop everything for them. Aegon and Aemond will lie directly to the king's face for their mother and Aegon for Aemond, Aemond will travel everywhere and offer himself up as a bargaining chip for the sake of Aegon's crown, Aegon will try to defend his mother from a dragon only for her to try and defend him, Helaena will try to warn her mother of imminent danger, Aemond'll start a fight for Aegon's honor and Aegon will full on BODY anyone who tries to touch Aemond. Even with Otto, it's clear that he adores Alicent, he's just bad at showing it and his actions strained their relationship and hurt her, and he's clear a kind grandfather to Helaena.

They love each other, and the choices they make are largely motivated by that love, and it can have horrible unintended consequences, though they'll always love each other. I've been open that I want Aegon to give Aemond a grief-induced beatdown that Aemond doesn't fight back after Blood and Cheese, but I also want the entire family to rally around each other in that as well, to ultimately grow closer by closing the ranks.

[selkiewife]

I think the people who wonder "Why couldn't Rhaenyra just have Laenor’s kids!??" really need to watch the wedding episode again because what the HELL. Like did you see what happened at their wedding? Did you see how all of their plans to have a functional marriage where they "do their duty" was smashed to literal pieces? Do you see Laenor's face as he is saying his vows? He has just lost the love of his life in the most brutal way imaginable. Joffrey was literally BEATEN TO DEATH. You tell me that you would be willing to try to have babies with someone after that happened to you. Forget about that night- ALL nights for a LONG LONG time. Do you seriously expect these traumatized people to start trying to have a baby, really? His new wife's lover just brutally murdered the love of his life. (I am not casting blame on Rhaenyra here) but let's be real for a minute. The fact that they were able to achieve the beautiful queer family they did is a godsdamn miracle after the trauma they suffered at the very beginning of their relationship.

I know Rhaenyra said that they did try later but that it was too upsetting for both of them to continue trying. I do think that if Joffrey had (again) NOT BEEN BRUTALLY MURDERED they could have possibly managed to get Rhaenyra pregnant with Laenor's child. But (again) they were both dealing with immense trauma after Joffrey was BRUTALLY MURDERED. I know that we all get wrapped up in the world of Westeros where this kind of thing is always happening at weddings. But this is not something people just "get over" you know?

I do think that putting the time jump after this episode was a little bit too much for the audience. Like... it's possible to fill in the blanks with what happened. But it basically asks us all to write fanfic to fill in the blanks. During the rewatch I REALLY tried to figure out how the hell Criston Cole got away with this- even with the protection of the Queen. I think it hinges on the fact that Viserys collapses at the end of the private wedding ceremony. So I think that while Viserys was incapacitated, Alicent was his regent while he was recovering and took that opportunity to use her power to save Criston. A story could have been spun that Joffrey was trying to attack Rhaenyra out of... jealousy maybe?? And that Criston was only trying to protect the heir? And then perhaps Corlys and Rhaenys were reluctant to endanger their son more with rumors about his sexuality so they wanted this swept under the rug as quickly as possible and so they didn't seek justice for Joffrey?

I think that Rhaenyra was probably guilt stricken over everything that happened and felt very isolated. She’d lost Criston, her new husband was traumatized because of her plan that went so disastrously wrong, she’d lost Alicent for good, her father was sick, SHE was traumatized… and I can imagine Harwin was there for her. We see him saving her at the wedding. I can imagine a scene where they run into each other later and he asks her how she is doing after everything. And then she opens up to him and seeks comfort in him.

And the result is that she is seen as “stupid” and “not playing the game” correctly after this horrific event. But ironically, even if she had managed to force her traumatized husband to give her heirs (which would have been abusive), or if she was cunning enough in her own traumatized state to pick someone who looked more like Laenor to be her lover, it still wouldn’t have mattered:

OTTO: It wouldn't matter if she were Jaehaerys himself born again. Rhaenyra is a woman. ~HOUSE OF THE DRAGON, Episode 3, "Second of His Name"

[edum123]

Sorry it took so long my original draft got deleted somehow and I had to rewrite the entire post. But without further ado here is another list of reason to prove Rhaenyra is unworthy as heir and future queen to the throne from episode 5. This part one there will be a part two later

With Rhaenyra getting Otto fired this leaves him on a position to talk to his daughter and stress the importance of Aegon being heir. • For people to understand Otto is the only person who talks to Alicent no one else really talks to her since becoming queen. Which means that Alicent is very close to her father and is devastated to know that he is leaving. Otto tells Alicent the hard truth in order for Rhaenyra to rule she will have to kill Alicent’s children in order to not have her claim come into question. He also tells her that Rhaenyra is lying and Alicent wanted to believe it but Rhaenyra lied to protect herself and that Rhaenyra is untrustworthy. We finally see Alicent start to think and process this information. This shows that Rhaenyra underestimates the father daughter bond that Alicent has with Otto. That with Rhaenyra doing this she is starting a chain of events that will come back to haunt her. This also shows that Rhaenyra can’t think ahead of what might happen and just assumes that she can do what she wants with no consequences.

The arrangement that Laenor and Rhaenyra make. • This is a terrible idea because they both are heirs to high ranking positions and they have other family members who could fill that role. With this arrangement they are opening themselves to gossip and damage to their reputations and image if cheating happens on Rhaenyra’s part then any children she has will be open to ridicule that they aren’t legitimate. Not to mention they are opening that families to mockery and being made fun of. Not to mention if she can’t honor a vow made in front of the gods this does not boost well to the future or her integrity as person. This deal is going to backfire on them and put their family and names in danger. This shows that Rhaenyra can’t think about future consequences only about what I like in the present. This arrangement was to unite the family bloodlines and secure the succession they care more about themselves then the future and stability of the realm.

How Rhaenyra handled the situation with Criston Cole. • This shows that Rhaenyra doesn’t understand and know how to read the people around her. Ser Criston was asking her to runaway with him because if he broke his vows he hoped it was for love that they have for each other. Criston then came to the realization that Rhaenyra used him for her pleasure and hopes to continue this in the future. Criston comes to realize in that moment that he was used and abused by Rhaenyra for her own pleasure and she will never think about anyone but herself. This shows that Rhaenyra thinks people should love and adore her no matter what that she doesn’t think about people having feelings and that if you hurt them enough they can lash out. Rhaenyra used him for her own pleasure but can’t understand that Criston does not get the same privileges that Rhaenyra has that she is asking him to risk his life for her own needs with no feelings or promise of a future together. This shows that Rhaenyra can’t think that these peoples have feelings and emotions and if you hurt them enough they will leave you.

Alicent finding out the truth of that night. • It first started with Otto telling her the truth it was in the back of her mind. Then Larys Strong who is in the garden that Rhaenyra swore on her dead mother that nothing happened asked if Rhaenyra was alright because she got some tea from the maester. Alicent then comes to realize that Rhaenyra might have lied to her or at the very least Viserys didn’t believe Rhaenyra. Then when Viserys come back from Driftmark he faints Alicent realizes that her father spoke the truth that the kings health is very bad. So Alicent decides to ask Criston Cole who guarded her door because he would know the truth. Criston Cole then tells her that he slept with Rhaenyra and that she have mercy for him if she found it in her heart. Alicent who now knows the truth that Rhaenyra took advantage of her lied to her got her father kicked out of the castle that her husband knew the truth and lied to protect Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra took advantage of Alicent and now Alicent knows that Rhaenyra words, honor, and her swearing on her mother’s grave means nothing. Alicent realizes that there is nothing honorable about Rhaenyra and that Rhaenyra will do anything to get what she wants. Rhaenyra in this moment lost her biggest ally because Rhaenyra has none from her attitude from before. Rhaenyra lied and never thought the truth would come out and that she would face consequences. This shows that once again Rhaenyra can not think into the future the repercussions her actions have. To be continued in part two for episode 5….

[fearthhereaper]

Some episode 5 thoughts (if there are any):

I like the idea of parading a dragon as a cover for smuggling Aegon back in the Keep. (people mourning the dragon that killed hundred+ of them I do not. But TG can't have shit so...)

Baela passing her inheritance because....reasons. (reasons being we're so afraid of giving anyone in TB conflicting feelings about anything happening in their lives)

The Small Council scenes were so good. The men talking over Rhaenyra, disrespecting her because to them it doesn't matter that she's their better, their queen, she's just a woman at the end of the day. I think it was really well done and her frustration with it was so genuine I enjoyed it.

The same thing for Green Council. Them choosing Aemond over Alicent. Larys letting the final decision be Criston's knowing it will cause a divide in their personal relationship. The way the camera shows her being disappointed and overwhelmed when Aemond starts making plans and, once again, men talking only to each other uncaring for her opinion on anything.

Sunfyre can't actually be dead...right? I hope they're saying that just to later reveal it and have it be a shock to the audience but I don't trust these writers with anything so I'll just assume they killed him fr fr. But Criston did say "was dying" which means "not dead" ig

I know some are upset with Criston choosing Aemond over Alicent but you can tell that what he saw truly disturbed him and that he doesn't wish it upon Alicent. Sure, she doesn't need his protection in that sense but he is, imo, coming from a good place. And he's probably petrified of what Aemond is capable of doing as well.

I liked Jace's scenes a lot as well. He wants to fight, to prove himself, he has this burden of being a bastard and hiding in a castle won't do anything to help him gain favor. He is sick of being coddled by his mother because it only puts him in more danger, makes him be seen as weak, makes him unprepared for what is coming.

Aegon waking up. "Mommy" (I have nothing to say I am sobbing)

The disrespect of giving Jeyne Arryn two baby dragons and being like "you didn't specify the size!1!1!1!" targaryen arrogance exceeds generations

And I don't even want to think about them still pushing the "death by dragon fire is the honorable targ death" narrative because it's so stupid it makes me want to split my head open

MVP storyline one again being Daemon's. Thank you Alys, thank you Harrenhal, you never disappoint. Daemon calling himself King, saying Rhaenyra can join HIM, they can rule as "KING and Queen", bending the knee to HIM, calling himself Viserys's heir even after all those years... excellent 10/10

Brackens refusing to follow him because even if he planned to treat them "kindly" after they bent the knee his methods of getting them to do it won't work. It's so good, so realistic. (mommy fucking scene....wtf was that, it's not even the incest that bothers me, it's just the fact that if daemon wanted to fuck one member of his immediate family it would be viserys)

Alys and Daemon have so much chemistry, and I don't mean that in sexual sense as much as I mean it in a sense that their scenes feel so natural, comfortable (even if what's happening is psychological torture) They've given me more married vibes in an episode than Daemyra had in two seasons

[bbygirl-aemond]

some thoughts on rhaena vs aemond in relation to vhagar

hello all i know that i am clearly an aemond apologist, but i wanted to give a more nuanced and unbiased take on the idea of him "stealing" vhagar from rhaena. namely, i wanted to argue that rhaena was always meant to bond with morning, and that to have her bond with vhagar would erase a great deal of her character's significance.

the show sets up some interesting parallels between rhaena and aemond, in that both are explicitly shown to be shunned and/or bullied because of their lack of a dragon. if the adults hadn't fucked up all of the children, i genuinely think the two could have empathized with each other about this, and maybe even have been friends. of course, we didn't get that, so we'll never know.

so we have two targaryens, both a similar age, and both the only dragonless members of their families. and we have vhagar, the largest, most powerful dragon of the world, freshly available for claiming.

how, and why, is it important that aemond ends up with vhagar, while rhaena does not? because rhaena WANTED vhagar, while aemond NEEDED her.

rhaena has a sense of safety and protection that aemond never had. she knows that she has powerful grandparents, and a powerful father, who are not only able but willing to protect her. so a dragon is not a matter of life and death for her.

it IS for aemond. alicent and criston care about him, but both are in very limited positions of power compared to people like daemon, corlys, and viserys. it's deeper than him being bullied; it's everything he's been taught by alicent and otto about the danger he and his family are in; a paranoia that is later proven when viserys prioritizes rhaenyra's reputation over aemond's physical safety, and literally threatens to cut out his tongue if he says bastard again. aemond needs vhagar in order to protect himself and his family, because no one else will. and he is so desperate that he stakes his LIFE on this.

so vhagar is claimed by aemond, and not rhaena.

and rhaena is young, and grieving her mother, and so the opportunity is not important to her in that moment. but even in the years beyond laena's funeral, rhaena does not claim any of the several riderless dragons on dragonstone, where she is living. vermithor, and especially seasmoke, would have both been very viable options. but she did not claim them.

i feel like this points to the fact that rhaena was not MEANT to claim a dragon, during all of those years. she already had a dragon: it had simply not yet hatched. and also that she was never going to be the type of person to claim an already-grown dragon; rather, one who needed to grow along with her hatchling.

and once the dance of dragons was done, with almost all of the dragons and targaryens extinct, rhaena and her little dragon are suddenly EVERYTHING. together, they are the emblem of hope, and of healing, for their house and their family. they survive, where so many of our other beloved characters did not, in order to serve as this symbol: of the future.

rhaena was always meant to bond with morning. and if morning had hatched any earlier, they both very well might have fought and perished in the dance of dragons. and i think the fact that they survive, together, is incredibly meaningful. please don't take that away from rhaena, y'all.

[hello-nichya-here]

Why was Rhaenyra so quick to jump into bed with Daemon both after saying she didn't want to get married and the again shortly after the death of Harry Strong, whom she supposedly loved?

First let's look at the reason why Rhaenyra didn't want to get married: her mother spent years in lots of physical and mental anguish, having one miscarriage/stillbirth after another, and eventually dying while giving birth to the king's long awaited male heir - who died a few hours later, so her sacrifice was all for nothing. People were then immediately trying to covince the king to pick a girl of their families as his new queen, like her mother didn't matter at all.

Obviously this soured Rhaenyra on the idea of marriage, because she feared ending up in the same situation as her mother. The fact that plenty of people were expecting marriage to be her "cosolation prize" so she'd step aside and let Aegon be king obviously didn't help.

And in the middle of all this chaos there's Daemon, her evil uncle. The one that is always making bedroom eyes at her and brought her a necklace of valiryan steel just because. The one person she's always speaking High Valiryan to, as it is the show's way of making clear to us that their connection to each other is different than the one they have with other people.

The one who was giving her emotional support when she had give the order to burn her mother's body. The one who, yes, stole the egg that was meant for her brother, yet the second she calls his bluff and tells him to stop being petty and kill her already so he can be king like he wants to, he immediately drops the act and gives her the egg back, no fighting, no conditions, no "you owe me", no nothing.

The one she felt comfortable enough explaining her trauma about her mother's death to, and to whom she was asking about whether marriage and love always had to be mutually exclusive.

That same Daemon took her to a brothel, explicitly to offer her just a forbidden affair, pleasure for pleasure's sake. He was someone she trusted and was attracted to, AND he was not her husband, therefore didn't get to demand heirs from her as that would be scandal - her own father even gave her moontea later to make sure she would not be pregnant.

But Viserys was, of course, not happy about this mess, so he picked a husband for Rhaenyra and she'd have no choice but to obey - and then in comes Daemon again, letting her know he is now widowed and still VERY into her.

Sure, Rhaenyra is willing to "do her duty" with her husband Laenor - but she also said that once that was done they'd both fuck whoever they wanted, and now here is Daemon, possibly giving her a way out of even that.

We gotta remember that, sometimes, Rhaenyra can be a lot like her uncle. She just wants what she wants when she wants it. She was flirting with both Criston Cole AND Daemon for the first half of the season, and when Daemon didn't go all the way with her, she turned to the "second best."

At that moment, on her wedding night, she does not want her VERY-soon-to-be-husband, she wants Daemon - and since Viserys won't accept her being "dishonored" again, the only that can happen is for them to elope, so she proposes exactly that (after rejecting Criston's offer to run away, because fleeing with him did not include a possible path to being queen).

Rhaenyra has mixed feelings about marriage and kids, but it's clear that thinks Daemon could be her "exception."

Things don't work out as she hoped they would, so they go their separate ways. She falls in love with Harwin and has his children - his BASTARD children, aka she's still in control, because their affair is a secret so if she ever felt like her life was in danger of the pregnancies, she could end them and not have her husband, her lover or her father demand her to risk her life for the sake of the kid, as that kid could mean exposing their (already poorly kept) secret.

Then Harwin is murdered and pretty much everyone knows of their affair, and Rhaenyra is at a super vulnerable position - and once again, in comes Daemon, widowed yet again, clearly still interested in his niece, and still perfectly capable and willing to strengthen her claim to the throne if they join forces to reign together.

OF COURSE she jumped his bones immediately. By her own admission, she believes that her life went all wrong because she didn't marry him years prior. Sure, in episode 10 we see she might not be as safe with him as she thought she would be, but she had no way of knowing that.

Everytime Rhaenyra runs to her uncle's arms, she had very good reasons to do so - and, like I said, she just wanted him, and he full on encouraged her to just take whatever she wanted because she's a Targaryen and not letting the world burn just so they can get what they want is weakness.

[sisyphusmile]

Hi, I saw those posts about Jaehaera... I fully support you and suggest you don't bother arguing with that particular individual. This is not the first time their posts are like that.

They hardly ever back up their claims with sources, because often, they have nothing. It's just a projection of what they would want to see or happen. That person has already lied about several other stuff and gets irrationaly angry when someone calls them out on it.

They claimed to have "show insider casting info" which "confirms Daeron will be Alicent and Criston's son" but then were unable to source it - saying they heard it on a live podcast which was later deleted. Red flag of red flags.

Then put forth another made-up story that Alicent and Criston were a thing even before Rhaenyra met him at the tourney, or that they possibly started their affair there. And that later on him killing Joffrey and injuring Harwin was Alicent's way if showing Rhaenyra that "Cole is on the Queen's side", because the Princess was "getting too thirsty and wanted to make the Queen jealous". What the actual f, there's not even an indication of this, in any book of any edition. Their delusion is overwhelming.

They say they've seen it in "the original" publishing of the books, previous editions (which you apparently can't find anywhere anymore, because the person thinks HBO took it off the shelves and burned it or smth lmfao)... and once HBO releases new season with nothing from the crap stuff they "predicted", they will try to make it as "woke writers changed canon and GRRM surely disapproves."

But it's actually a smart strategy to make something up like this. Repeat a lie often and, in time, it will no longer appear as a lie. That's how the usual fake news spread. Right now, they will influence their followers and make them believe certain storylines they themselves have build up in their head, even though their only credibility is the confidence they have in the claims. Once enough people start believing and repeating it, it might as well be the truth. Because it will appear credible to those who don't know where this lie started.

It's a disgusting behaviour and kudos to you for even standing up to that person, because they are chronic liars. I think they do it for attention, makes them feel important and once they get more people believing their interpretation, they feel validated. Or they might have a really bad memory, perhaps due to some medical condition...

This is not really an ask, I just wanted to share this with you. Have a nice day/night, wherever you are!

Hi Nonnie! It's very heart-warming to see the words from you! Firstly, I don't take anything he said personally to Jaehaera. She's already a tragic character there's no need to stand against her in any circumstance. What I'm arguing against is fake info, twisted truth for someone's selfish interest. They'd like to mislead anyone just for their own favour. So I agree with everything you said about that OP. In my language, we call that kind of person "xees gui", meaning he has no pee. Keeping saying what he said but was too hollow and cowardly inside to prove it so he could not pee out a single drop. And don't worry abt me! Someone has to point out the mistakes with proof slapping his face. Otherwise, he will keep fooling other people. Moreover, I already show him tons of pictured proof for canon claim but he could show none. It does not matter if he recognizes it anymore. The pictures are there, the resources are there for anyone to search out the truth. I have already done my part. What a "xees gui" person said means nothing to me anymore. He ran out of words to argue against each of my proofs. So besides keep repeating "You are wrong" without any evidence, he first called me a "bitch", then insulted me for being a third-language user of English instead. See what level of person he is.

Last but not least, you said they like to use "the original" publishing of the books, previous editions, and forgotten interviews or podcasts as excuses for lacking of evidence. THEY ARE WRONG. They underestimated the book fandom of asoiaf since the AGOT was published. Here's a link to "So spake Martin". An official archive run by Elio and Linda collecting all GRRM's interviews, podcasts, and any changes to old editions since 1990. And it's still updating. There are a lot of old versions of narratives different from the published books in this archive. But there's not a single version the same as the "xees gui" person said. If they dare name any of their lies with a date. Using this source would immediately slap them.

I already finished my part, the rest is for those who with brains to figure out who's the liar. Again thank you for such kind and wise words! You are an Angel! Lots of love!

❤️❤️❤️

[horizon-verizon]

After watching episodes 6-10 of season 1, here are some more major changes:

In Fire and Blood, Alicent was not with Viserys moments or hours before he died.

She purposely left Viserys' body to rot as to hide his death and convene the small council herself.

the same council was obviously more in Alicent's hand than the other way around, as she and Otto were the ones who "asked" for them all to "consider" the matter of the succession.and apposed the pressure. Criston, dealing with Beesbury, sealed the deal.

Rhaenys was never at King's Landing when Aegon was crowned and never burst through the floor to escape.

At the family dinner, Viserys ordered the greens and the blacks to wear each others' colors and the women kissed each other on the cheeks in shows of amity. But it was clearly just that--a show. There was no forgiveness, apology, nor a moment of harmon and good feeling. If anything it would have been a scene with as much tension as the betrothal feast in episode 5, but worse in a way because the hate has settled.

There is no evidence of Rhaenyra proposing a marriage between Jacaerys and Helaena. That definitely would have been mentioned with what Gyldayn and his sources design to tell us.

Just to reiterate: Daemon agreed with Rhaenyra to not use the dragons (only as a last resort). He opted for sending ravens to various lords to gather banners and test their loyalty/oath faithfulness. He was never condescending towards Rhaenyra's desire to not use the dragons and he actually expressed concern over the lives of his stepsons when he talked about how Valyrian dragonriders could and did kill each other. These two were rather in accord with each other. There was no undermining of Rhaenyra's authority with him screaming about how they should kill all the greens immediately.

Maris Baratheon mocked Aemond for not going after Lucerys but it was to get back at him for rejecting her for her prettier sister as a wife in negotiating with Borros. Basically she calls him ball-less and that she was glad she didn't have to marry such a coward. This ignites Aemond's pride and anger so he feels he must prove his "bravery" and then goes after Lucerys. (The language and framing here in the book makes Maris the one more to blame for angering Aemond, but Aemond was a big boy here.)

Aemond definitely wanted to kill Lucerys by how things with Borros' went and how he and his brothers always hated the Velaryon boys even before he lost his eye. And he hated them specifically because they were people who "took" what he thought was rightfully his or his brothers, which basically still means "his".

*speaking of which, the show makes it seem that Aemond was the only one being bullied. But if this is a court where the V boys are thought of as bastards-hiding-in-plain-sight, then wouldn't they be the ones getting the most mistreatment and dismissal, even straight up bullying from their trueborn uncles more than the other way around? And wouldn't they retaliate repeatedly or occasionally in response?*

Aegon never antagonizes or bullies Aemond: like I said above, he was rather with Aemond hating the Velaryon boys. No evidence of bullying from him.

Viserys says that he expects or hopes that Aemond can claim a dragon while they visited Dragonstone, which aggravates Aemond enough to try to claim Vhagar and dismiss the notion of getting hatchling.

Aemond is described as "fierce" since he as a child, before he lost his eye. With an entire court of nobles see him grow up, his later actions against Alys, the Strongs, and the entire riverlands, his misogynist words towards Rhaenyra before he razes the riverlands to the ground, and how Lucerys' death happened, it's easy to put the pieces together and see that he has been rageful and violent for most of his life; and Alicent encouraging him to see Rhaenyra and her sons as undeserving has made them all inferior in his eyes. Thus undeserving of understanding or compassion or respect. At least it is to me and how tragedy narration works.

The first person to demand corporal punishment is Alicent, who demanded for Lucerys' eye as punishment. It is after this that Rhaenyra calls for Aemond's "sharp" questioning for his calling Lucerys a bastard. Yet the show has Rhaenyra call for Aemond's harm before Alicent's call for child harming. (While either way Rhaenyra was clearly trying to protect herself and her sons, in the book Alicent is the one calling for an unfair punishment first and Rhaneyra is the one responding to that. It doesn't make Rhaenyra good or morally clear, but it does tell us that Alicent was the aggressor there, not a perfect victim. And this makes it clearer that Alicent was willing to use her Queen Consort privilege and authority more than Show!Alicent does.)

I am aware that a televised adaptation of a book or book series doesn’t and can’t be 100% faithful to the original source(s). 

However, it’s still frustrating to see show writers and producers make huge changes in themes and characterizations and then do not make it clear to audiences that what they created is majorly different from the canon. Or that they are making a series that is not trying to be the objective truth of the events, revealing the mysteries the original canon document set up for us to ponder.

As just pure soap opera-leaning entertainment, the show does more than others, but it still lacks a lot of even soap opera potential because of those time jumps disallowing us from seeing the development of the contention between Alicent and Rhaenyra, Rhaneyra and Viserys, Viserys and Daemon, Daemon and Laena and his daughters, Rhaneyra and Otto, Criston and Otto, Criston and Harwin, Harwin and Larys, Larys’s and Lyonel, Alicent and Otto, and so much more. 

Where are the scenes showing specific quarrels that build into the hate and strife in inter/intra-familal/political factions? 

If Aegon (II) is such a pitiable person, why don’t we get more tension and confrontations or suppressions between him and Alicent apart from that one scene to show such? Things like this are missing. And we know that Aegon and Rhaenyra will come to blows at one point, yet we have never seen an interaction between them besides that one smirk he threw and her repressed acknowledgment in episode 8. Huh? Am i supposed to care or feel any hate here?

So far, every character has the promise of complexity and the assumption, but very little of the showing vs telling.

And with all the critical changes of undeniable facts of the canon Dance of the Dragons from Fire and Blood, I still think it’s odd that House of the Dragon is treated as if its portrayal is revealing any definitive “truths” hidden in Fire and Blood about the relationships we saw on screen. 

For me, House of the Dragon is more a fanfiction of the reimagining type (as opposed to an AU, where the other choice(s) made toward an original situation go toward another option) that George R.R. Martin thought should be televised while he works on The Winds of Winter, despite going on record not liking fanfiction. A total “reimagining” as opposed to an AU because the two female leads do not act like humans, just representations of “women who have no agency because all they want is peace and it’s the men’s fault that they will go to war”. Meanwhile, if we go back in real humans history women constantly wages wars (even when they were doing it in the stead of their sons, they still were the ones who decided war was necessary) for power, money, etc.

While Mushroom, Orwyle, Runiciter, and Septon Eustace all are the main major and named sources for the more intimate events of the Dance of the Dragons there are still many core, undeniable truths recorded about the Dance:

Rhaenyra–by court account, in the eyes of the nobles at court, and by peasant public knowledge–was known as the “Realm’s Delight” for her beauty, charm, and precociousness from the age of 7. While Viserys could have emphasized this, it had to have come from Rhaenyra’s disposition itself for other nobles in court to believe in her “delightfulness” so strongly. It’s also possible Viserys saw how people already felt and treated Rhaenyra, felt that himself or used it to create more attention and regard for her. But that’s the rub. We don’t get any answer towards that because it’s ignored. And where is the “show” of that adoration from courtiers/peasants or whomever for this moniker? We only get the mention of that moniker (a “telling”, not a “showing”) in episode 4 in that play she sees with Daemon at night.

Alicent was 18 years old when she married Viserys while Rhaenyra was 9. From the get go, they were never peers of age. Rhaenyra was technically Alicent’s superior as both a royal and later as the heir. Going by canon custom, Alicent (the Queen Consort, not the ruling Queen/Queen regnant or Queen Regent) still isn’t supposed to be as powerful as to adjourn council meetings, or start them. Alicent was even the one to read to Jaehaerys and make sure he was as comfortable as he could be before he died, and she die this at 15. She only got to call the council after Viserys’ death because Viserys, the king, was dead.

Daemon was in the Stepstones fighting to maintain the control he gained after the first incident at King’s Landing with Rhaenyra, during the banishment Viserys commanded. His first wife, Rhea Royce, died during a hunt near the Vale after knocking her head, trying to get up a few days later, and then passing out. So concerning whether or not he is responsible for her death is more up in the air than the shows makes it. If they wanted to keep the Daemon-kills-Rhea bit, then they should have gone with the assassin sent to kill her method (like Larys). Have it be a servant poisoning her horse’s feed and making it go mad or something.

Daemon never gets Rhea Royce’s properties after she dies. Despite that comment in HotD’s 5th episode being the only thing shown, and not Daemon actually trying to do as he said and the consequences of that.

Mysaria does get pregnant with Daemon’s child but loses it after Viserys banishes Daemon. She actually goes back to Lys for a time by Viserys’ order. There would have been too much importance placed on the miscarriage for it to have been mistold or fake and sex workers still could and did often get pregnant. Also, there is generally not much a women could do to utterly prevent pregnancy forever if she is already fertile, and even if there was, Mysaria was not likely rich enough to get such a service. Daemon, as a man of such a society and going by his actions on F&B, is more likely to want to keep the child. In the book, he got the egg knowing she was pregnant. No lemme don’t play with their children because tie children are their main chance at getting their feudal legacy.

Daemon and Laena do go back to Driftmark for Laena to give birth to her their newest child for her and the child’s own safety.

Viserys doesn’t die from literal flesh rot. He has a gradual “decay” in the metaphorical sense, since he dies of complications gradual and much weight again until he dies in his sleep. He doesn’t get hurt by the swords in the Iron Throne until much later and Rhaenyra’s own maester, Gerardys, is credited for saving his entire arm/life by cutting off two of his fingers. Viserys had already been having trouble with gout, shortnes of breath, and chest tightness. Not as cool, flashy, or poetic but both common for rich and powerful people who didn’t exercise often and indicative of his lifetime of feasting. (I think that this condition was exacerbated by the stress of his daughter, second wife and other kids constantly fighting, Daemon’s refusals to obey properly, as well as the continuous questioning Rhaenyra’s fidelity/heir status.) The show gives literal rot for more apparent drama and to generate more empathy towards this character. The shots and angles of his entrances in episode 8 also do this. (Meanwhile, not enough is given to Joffrey Monmouth, Laenor, Laena, and the shots for Laenor/Joffrey in episode 5 especially lacked in comparison to Viserys. But I digress.)

Viserys never made a deal with Corlys over who of Rhaenyra’s kids by Laenor will inherit what, nor what their last names will be. Rhaenyra is the one who demands Corlys name Lucerys as his heir when he lay in bed sick (so that it can be settled in case he dies), and she was the one who told Daemon to kill Vaemond for naming her three sons bastards/her unfaithful and being thus treasonous herself. Viserys, after hearing Vaemond’s other relatives protest against this action, ruled to cut out their tongues for mentioning the “lie” again after he already ruled for it to never be brought up again, on pain of the same penalty.

Joffrey Lonmouth dies when Criston kills him at Rhaenyra and Laenor’s wedding tourney. Criston does this after Rhaenyra refuses to give Criston her favor, going into a rage.

Criston also beats up Harwin in the same tourney, winning the match between them.

Alicent enlists Criston after he kills Joffrey.

Laenor dies by Qarl Correy in a town near Driftmark. In public. Many different witnesses to that murder are assured.

Harwin and Lyonel were still alive when Aemond claimed Vhagar. 

Joffrey Velaryon (3), Rhaenyra’s kid, was the one Aemond (10) saw before he even touched Vhagar. Aemond pushed Joffrey aside and then climbed Vhagar. It was Joffrey’s cry that alerted his brothers: Jace (6) and Luke (5). (This was also told by Aemond himself.) Baela and Rhaena were never there.

Viserys “punishes” Rhaenyra and her family by ordering her to stay in Dragonstone as he and his other kids by Alicent, with Alicent, leave. The purpose was to separate and distill tension rather than punish.

Alicent never loses control and attacks neither Rhaenyra nor Lucerys.

Rhaenys and Meleys weren’t in King’s Landing when Aegon (II) was crowned, since the matter of the Driftmark claim was never brought before the Greens in King’s Landing in the first place. Rhaenyra and Daemon did what they did.

Rhaenys and another two Lords wanted to use the dragons and go after Aegon, while Corlys protested what he said was destructive futility (ruining the place you want to rule). Rhaenyra doesn’t want to use the dragons so that her sons do not risk themselves; Daemon actually agrees with Rhaenyra to not to use the dragons in the first black council after Aegon II is crowned.  Daemon wanted to send out messages to all the lords to gather under Rhaenyra and use the dragons as a last resort.

Jaehaerys was never actually at the Great Council that decides in favor of Viserys.

And so much more…

The show looks more like a shallower puppet shadow of the canon tale more than a televised portrayal of the canon. All the characters feels like one dimensional representations of a conflict between just Alicent and Rhaenyra, who themselves have the same pressures of their positions from Fire and Blood, yet are not acting as if they have desires for power of their own–apart from obeying Viserys and Otto for validation. (This could have been one layer instead of the only or one of just two). Their personalities are too wrapped in that desire. And in Rhaenyra’s case, the prophecy her father places the burden of.

That’s the other thing. It is clear in Fire and Blood that Viserys has much culpability and the book doesn’t try to redeem his poor choices or explain them as him trying to do his duty and leave him as the suffering “savior’ like how the 8th paide over emphasizes.

There is not "yeah, BUT” sentiment even suggestive for his character’s inability to create real harmony and understanding amongst his kids. He wanted peace but didn’t do the real work for it or couldn’t. He also left much of the real governing to his council members, letting them reason out what decisions he would make. And since, again, he was not rotting away like in the show, he was almost always healthy enough (in comparison)– despite his chest tightness and gout–to actually be the former or think more independently.

He was a king that preferred throwing many parties, feasts, and tourneys both when he had Aemma and after when married to Alicent. He enjoyed his luxuries when he could and often did, especially to offset the already listed challenges to his authority and his responsibility towards maintaining the Targ dynasty.

[sweetestpopcorn]

Hiiii! Do you also think maybe Daemon and Rhaenyra were based off of Richard III rumored relationship with Elizabeth of York? Age difference is the same along with maligned uncle vs first born daughter beloved by the kingdom, GRRM does mix and match a lot, while the Dance is clearly the Anarchy and thr WOTFK is War of the Roses I can’t help notice the similarities

Hi there!

No, I absolutely do not think there is anything in common between Richard III and Elizabeth and Daemon and Rhaenyra. The Dance is based on the Civil War between Queen Matilda/Maud and her cousin Stephen, not on the Wars of the Roses. That would be the current ASOIAF timeline.

But to elaborate on this, at the time they were alive there was no evidence of any romance going on between Richard III and Elizabeth of York. The only evidence that we have presently comes from a letter some centuries later in which apparently Elizabeth expressed a desire to wed her uncle Richard, but there is suspicion and some evidence that the contents of the letters were changed.

What we do know was that actually Richard III was looking into an alliance with Portugal. He wanted to marry his niece Elizabeth with the future Manuel of Portugal and in turn wanted to marry Princess Joana of Portugal himself.

It has been suggested that any rumour of him wanting to marry Elizabeth was actually made up by his enemies to make him look bad and tarnish his reputation. After his wife Anne died, he even sent Elizabeth away from court and to Sheriff Hutton castle while he negotiated this alliance with Portugal.

Elizabeth later went on to marry Henry VII uniting the two fighting Houses of York and Lancaster.

Here's a very good article on the whole Richard III and Elizabeth of York thing:

Comparing them now to Daemon and Rhaenyra, Daemon was never king or heir, only ever prince. Rhaenyra was enamoured with him since she was a child, but later the two were parted for roughly 7 years. Around this time, Rhaenyra was named heir (when she was 8 years of age) and Daemon was away conquering the Stepstones. She was set on becoming the queen one day and he got further and further from that possibility with every new kid Alicent gave Viserys.

Daemon returns to court around the time Rhaenyra is 14 going on 15 and by both sources of Fire and Blood the two of them engage in a romantic affair, displaying every behaviour of two people who are interested in each other with Daemon doing everything plus to court Rhaenyra. The thing the two sources differ on is:

- how far their physical affair went (i.e., Septon Eustace says all the way and points Ser Arryk Cargyll as the person who discovered it seeing them abed; Mushroom maintains bases 1, 2, and 3 and names himself as the person who told the king what was going on);

-what Rhaenyra's feelings were on the matter (i.e., Septon Eustace says she loved Daemon and wanted to marry him; Mushroom says she wanted Criston and was using Daemon but Daemon was getting to bases 1, 2, and 3 to get her to be given to him in marriage -> during the Dance though, Mushroom describes Daemon as "Rhaenyra's beloved consort" *rolling my eyes*);

Then Daemon get's sent away (again) and two years go by. Rhaenyra eventually marries Laenor, he marries Laena, the two meet again, Laena dies, Rhaenyra comforts Daemon, Laenor dies, Daemon comforts Rhaenyra, she get's pregnant and they marry, fast forward she's Queen and he's her Prince Consort.

I see nothing in common between them and Elizabeth and Richard besides them being uncle and niece.

I know Emma Frost and Philippa Gregory (big sigh) have tried to push a very different narrative but the thing is there is just no evidence for what they suggest. I think they would be quite good in asoiaf adaptations though since clearly they like incest.

The closest characters in history I know to Daemon and Rhaenyra would actually be two portuguese queens named Maria I and Maria II. Maria I married her uncle Pedro and had quite a happy marriage with him. She was said to have lost her mind due to grief from losing a lot of children and her husband.

This is them:

Then we have Maria II. She was the daughter of King Pedro IV, and Pedro had quite the ambitious brother named Prince Miguel. Miguel always wanted to be king, and he was quite ruthless. Pedro eventually betrothed Maria II to Miguel (while Maria was still a child). They came to Portugal and Pedro stayed in Brazil. Once in Portugal Miguel gave a big old "F_ck you" to Pedro and decided to take the crown for himself and started a civil war with his brother. He never did marry Maria II though.

There is actually a very good Brazilian soap opera called "Quinto dos Infernos" that covers this time period. I think you can find it on Youtube but unless you can speak Portuguese I don't think you will understand it XD funny enough though Pedro was the ladies' man, not his brother Miguel.

This was the actor playing King Pedro (you're welcome everyone XD and yes there are so many hot Brazilian actors, y'all don't know what you're missing out on XD)

His brother Miguel:

Boy would George have a field day with Portuguese history... our first king went to war against his mother... and her lover 😂 King Alfonso IV almost went to war with his father and then his son Pedro went to war with him. #familydrama

But yeah... nothing in common from where I am standing.

All the best to you and follow me for more photos of the actor that played Pedro IV X'D

[navree]

Visenya + Maegor are Alicent + Aegon 2.0 ? If Aegon the Uncrowned was older and had better supporters could there be the first Dance much earlier?

I'm never one to smack down headcanons, especially when everything surrounding the Conquerors and the sons of the dragon and those generations are incredibly open to interpretation due to the lack of concrete information we have on interpersonal dynamics, but I don't personally see them as proto Alicent and Aegon. For one, it does depend on which version of Alicent and Aegon someone's thinking of, just because the show versions of their characters are vastly different from their book versions (Alicent in particular is incredibly different even though I love both versions of her, and Aegon in the book is significantly more well adjusted than our wet eyed king as portrayed by TGC). For two, the relationships do seem to be incredibly different. One of the things, to me at least, that shaped Visenya and Maegor's relationship is the isolation. Yes, Viserys doesn't seem to have been very involved in the upbringing of Alicent's children in the book, and we know in the show that he was the deadbeat dad to end all deadbeat dads, but Aegon and Helaena and Aemond and Daeron still had other people in their support systems. In both versions of the story, they had Otto and they had Criston Cole and they also had each other. Maegor is his mother's only child, raised primarily at her side, in a time where she was not involved at court and was keeping to herself on Dragonstone, which passed down to her son keeping to himself as well, and he doesn't seem to have interacted with any kids his age beyond just beating them in swordfights and unseating them in tourneys. He canonically wasn't close with Aenys when they were kids, and he did not grow up with his father, their relationship likely confined to whenever Aegon spent time at Dragonstone, which was rare given how he and Visenya had already pulled away from each other and lived separate lives at that time. Maegor and Visenya appear to have only had each other, which I think can be found in Maegor's later life, particularly in his search for wives and the way the one he was the most attached to, Tyana, is the most like Visenya (not entirely dissimilar to the way that Henry VIII kept looking for wives that closely emulated his mother, Elizabeth of York). So Visenya championing Maegor's cause as a contender for the throne, and Maegor's willingness to go along with it, comes from a much different motivation. It's Visenya looking out for, at this point, the only person that really matters to her, and putting her blood and her only love over everything else. Alicent's motivations, while they do contain a similarity (Alicent in both versions is also clearly motivated by love for her children) with Visenya's, are a lot more varied, based on things like her own issues with Rhaenyra and the law of the land and concerns about the fate of her children during a Rhaenyra monarchy that Visenya wouldn't have had for Maegor if Aegon the Uncrowned had been able to take the throne. There's also the fact that Maegor and Visenya and Alicent and Aegon are all incredibly different people, and as such would obviously have vastly different interpersonal dynamics based on who they are, even if there are some surface levels similarity of "monarch who wasn't thought of as the successor by the previous king takes throne, has mom who's on his side about it".

As for whether a Dance-esque situation could have arisen if Aegon the Uncrowned were older and had better supporters, I don't think that would have happened either. For one thing, Aegon was sixteen/seventeen and legally an adult according to all Westerosi societal customs during this time, so age wouldn't have mattered that much (and Aegon II was also pretty young when he took the throne, 22 in the book and 19 or 20 at maximum in the show) in the grand scheme of things. But there are a lot of much more complex factors at play. One of the reasons why the Dance was so contentious and such a disaster for the realm at large was because of how muddied the waters were. There really wasn't a "wrong" side to support, both because Rhaenyra and Aegon had competing legal claims with their own individual merits and also because birthright monarchy is a scam and the only right side would have been the creation of democracy, but I digress. There were a lot of factors at play making things complicated when everyone started picking sides that just didn't really exist in Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned's struggles. You can't really call anyone in the Dance a usurper, for instance. But what Maegor did is very clear usurpation. He was pretty far down the line of succession, no matter which way it was cut. If the Targaryens wanted to follow absolute primogeniture, then during Aenys's reign he would have been behind Aegon and Aerea and Rhaella and Viserys and Jaehaerys and Alysanne. If the Targaryens wanted to just go with male dominant primogeniture, then he still would have been behind Aegon and Viserys and Jaehaerys. He was well down the line and there was a plethora of heirs ahead of him with a more direct claim. Unlike Aegon, who is relying on the legal precedent of male inheritance that's been the law in Westeros for quite some time, Maegor didn't have that loophole. He literally just took a crown that he was not entitled to in any legal way, simply because he had the biggest dragon and he wanted it. And that's the key thing here. Because the thing is, none of the rest of it matters. Even if Aegon was older, if that were a factor, or even if he had more loyalists, it wouldn't have mattered. What made the Dance as drawn out as it was compared to other Targaryen dynastic disputes, like Maegor and Aegon the Uncrowned, was that the Targaryens involved were evenly matched when it came to firepower. Each side in the Dance has a wide variety of dragons under their commands of varying power (the Blacks have more, but a lot of them are young, whereas the Greens have less but they're all pretty well disciplined and old and therefore more powerful) that keeps everyone on their toes. There's a reason why the Dance kind of effectively ends after the Blacks lose nearly all of their dragons; with Sunfyre as the oldest and most powerful dragon left in active combat (Rhaena's is way too small and Nettles had already vanished with Sheepstealer) the Black claimant, Rhaenyra, does not have anything to fight him and Aegon with, and as we know, it ends badly for her. And what doomed Aegon the Uncrowned in his fight against Maegor was dragon firepower. Aegon could have had all the allies and ground support he wanted, and maybe it would have made life harder for Maegor, but Quicksilver cannot square up with Balerion. In a straight fight, Quicksilver loses, which is exactly what happens. And even if Aegon had more support, it still would have pretty quickly dissipated after Balerion full on eradicates him and Quicksilver below God's Eye.

The Dance overall was just a very different set of circumstances that can't really be applied to other eras of Targaryen history and other dynamics and other squabbles, that's what makes it so unique and so interesting.

[diaryofanobsessivefangirl]

Masterlist of Ships Subtropes

Dynamic tropes

Puppy love

Romance between children.

Examples: Gendry x Arya, Arnold x Helga, Mike x Eleven, Shaoran x Sakura

Childhood Acquaintance

They meet when they were children, regardless of the frequency or how close they were. They may have been raised together, may have saw each other every now and then, or even just once.

Used to be Friends

Examples: Petyr x Catelyn; Erik x Christine; Mina x Lucy

Used to be Lovers

Couples that were officially together (At least had sex) before everything went to hell. Ships that only flirted, such as Anna/David (The Guest) and Jackson/Lisa (Red Eye) are not included.

Examples: Athos x Milady; Tom x Elizabeth (The Blacklist); Dolores x William

Love Makes You Evil

A character who was originally good but did things for love that turn him to the dark side.

Examples: Anakin, Petyr Baelish and Claude Frollo

Love Makes You Crazy

A character driven to the brick of sanity because of love.

Example: Claude Frollo from Notre Dame de Paris and Ram from Princess Daisy

Not So Different After All

Opposites/rivals/enemies that actually have many hidden similarities. They are canonically each other’s shadow and are compared as two sides of the same coin.

Example: Anne x Vincent, Steerpike x Fuchsia, Kylo x Rey, Jackson x Lisa

Love Beyond Death

Meeting in the after-life, meeting reincarnation or person coming back from the dead.

Example: Catherine x Heathcliff, Petyr x Catelyn, Dracula x Mina, Naraku x Kikyo

Dragging You to the Gutter with Me

A villain turns a heroine into a brutal lonely broken thing only he can understand what it’s like to be, and still she won’t come to him. So what keeps them together is also what keeps them apart. Read more.

Example: Naraku and Kikyo; Alina and Darkling; Petyr and Catelyn; Dolores and William

In Love with the Mark

A man who works for some really big, bad guys. He may or not believe in their ideology; that is not the point. He is there for the money and he prides himself of his professionalism. For some reason, this organization working on the shadows have “business” to deal with this ordinary everyday woman. So he is hired to stalk, threaten, or even kill her. Turns out, Stalking is Love, and he develops feelings for his target. That doesn’t stop him from keeping up with the job, thought. He had to be undercover to get closer, so cases of Used to be Lovers/Friends are probably included. You will likely hear from a character In Love With the Mark the quote “It wasn’t personal.”

Example: Jack/Angela; Jackson/Lisa; Vincent/Anne; Tom/Lizzie (Jacob/Masha); Skye/Ward

The Queen and her Champion

Woman occupies traditionally feminine roles of power and the man is an example of masculinity for others. She uses clever words, social understanding and schemes. He is her sword and her armor, but nothing more. Because of their different stances, he is bound to be close to her he protects, but never with her.

Examples: Maly and Alina; Zelda and Link; Lancelot and Guinevere; Rhaenyra Targaryen and Criston Cole; Daenerys and Ser Jorah; Every Elizabeth Tudor romance, Queen Anne and Aramis; Lucrezia and Cesare; Cersei and Jaime.

Art Inspires Love

When character A realizes or falls (more) in love with character B after watching him dance, sing, or doing something artistic.

Examples: Frollo/Esmeralda, Christine/Erik, Hap/Prairie, Isaura/Leôncio, Anne/Vincent, Sandor/Sansa and Babydoll/Blue Jones.

Supernatural Connection

The characters have a psychic or physical connection. Maybe they can communicate through telepathy or can feel each other’s presence and emotions when they are nearby. There might be a spell connecting their hearts in a way one can only die when the other one does. Maybe they are twins. Whatever the reason, these characters are bonded in a way no one else could be.

Examples: Kylo x Rey, Nuada x Nuala, Darkling x Alina and Cersei x Jaime.

The Frollo Effect

A guy falls in love with a girl he is suppose to reject, repulse or dehumanize, and fights against it. By trying to suppress it, her converts love into hatred against her and himself, and probably punishes both hoping it will make the feeling go away. It does not work and the guy starts doing things he never thought he was capable of in order to deal with this unbearable need. He is usually proud, rational and very in control of himself until she comes along. Her initial dismissal as a suitor commonly starts out as social expectation - in which the characters are from divergent social segments and ideologically separated -, but it’s always a expectation the guy has over himself, regardless if anyone else imposes this on him.

Examples: Esmeralda x Frollo (Gypsy and priest), Amon x Helen (Jew and nazi), Isaura x Leôncio (Slave and master), Daisy x Ram (Sister and brother), William x Dolores (Host and guest) and Hap x Prairie (Subject and scientist)

Bonding undercover

When the bad guy pretends to be a normal person long enough to befriend the good girl and make her fall in love with him. This is usually how tragically two-sided vxh happens, because she gets to know his other side before the bad one gets in the way, but they can still have a happy ending because it also establishes they could have the base for a healthy relationship if only he could abandon his malicious quest. This only happens when the girl develops deeply romantic feelings for him; if it's only a crush or devilish attraction (Red Eye, The OA and Agents of SHIELD) than it doesn't count. She must be sobbing on the floor when this is done. May also involve an amnesia period in which the antagonist approaches the hero as an old friend or a lover.

Examples: Steerpike and Fuchsia, Christine and Erik, Kiara and Kovu, Elizabeth and Tom, Dracula and Vanessa

Generation Parallel

A love story doesn’t end up well. Years later another generation repeats the first one in a slightly different manner. Most of the time, the parallel between the two affairs means the characters from the first one have the chance to develop as we wished they would, and that their love might have grown roots under a different field. Sometimes it just means shit happens no matter the circumstances, and that people will make the same mistakes of their elderlies despite that they should have known better by now. If we are talking about the first generation’s offspring (Incest not necessarily included), it might mean their love is on their DNA and they would fall over and over again under different names and places. In any case, this trope is the romantic side of History Repeats Itself.

Very common theme in incest, because their birth requires a previous affair between their parents, but it only counts if it is a story on its own, full of ups and downs, and people talk about it. If it’s not mentioned or important to the plot, there is no point in calling it Generation Parallel.

Examples: Jaime and Cersei (Joana and Tywin), Arya and Gendry/Jon (Lyanna and Robert/Rhaegar), Catherine and Hareton (Cathy and Heathcliff), Abby and Henry (Wakefield and Sarah), Rey and Kylo (Padme and Anakin), Isaura and Leôncio (Almeida and Juliana), Leonardo e Marina (Pilar e Murilo).

Roaring Rampage of Romance

Love that starts a war and the main plot. Characters that destroy cities and galaxies because Love Made Them Evil, because they are trying to be with whom they love or to secure their safety and happiness. It might be on purpose, in which they have foreseen the consequences but choose to take them anyway as a means to an end, or it was accidental. There may be decades of conflict and the count of a hundred corpses, or maybe a famous massacre with a handful dead extras. Maybe a murderer is hunting down everyone on an Island so that he can be alone with his beloved. Anyway, innocent people that had nothing to do with them nor interfered with the couple’s happiness will suffer the collateral damage.

Common trope among royalty, since marrying or bearing the children of someone you were not supposed to could have disastrous consequences to the State, still people would do it for love.

If the character is causing the rampage in search for something else, like power, and to secure his beloved is an incidental bonus, it isn’t considered Roaring Rampage of Romance, unless he is doing it because Love Has Made Him Evil. Alina/Darkling and Nuada/Nuala, for instance, don’t fit this category.

Examples: Penny Dreadful, Inuyasha, ASoIaF (Rhaegar x Lyanna, Jaime x Cersei, Petyr x Catelyn), Harper’s Island, Westworld, Notre Dame de Paris, Wuthering Heights, The Phantom of the Opera, Bram Stroker’s Dracula, Apollo and Cassandra, Star Wars (Anakin and Padmé)

Taboo Tropes

Incest

Self-explanatory. Cousins will not be considered incest in here. I’m brazilian.

Subtrope: Decadent Aristocrats

Ho Yay

Homosexual couples

Age gap

Ships with age gap between then, 10 years at least. Supernatural/immortal beings won’t be taken into account unless the other part is a child or coming of age.

Wife Husbandry

A man adopts or temporarily takes care of a little girl. She may or not develop a precocious crush on him. Little girl grows up into a extraordinary and desirable woman. She had him on a pedestal all these years and has been saving herself for him. Man is distressed bc he can’t reconcile the image of the child he cherished as a father and the provoking woman she turned out to be. He mostly resists her advances, but they work that out by the end.

Example: Older!Mathilda/Leon AU, Nancy/Hartigan (Sin City), Veronica/William (Final Girl)

Development Tropes

End game ship

Is not everyday an OTP becomes end game

AU ship

A.k.a. “Canon? Who needs canon?” ships. OTPs that had a lot of potential but were ruined by canon. So either I ignore the end they were given, either some parts in the middle. Unlike Not Canon ships, these were meant to be romantically involved, but the way it was executed ruined it.

Secondary Interest ship

That One Scene ships are the ones with nothing shippable except for one or two scenes. Sometimes is not even canon and are more anti-recs than anything, but it’s still about villain x heroine, so it’s relevant to this blog.

Not canon

Word of God stayed silent and, according to my best judgment, the subtext was not enough. If something sexual or romantic happens between the characters but isn’t based on desire, such as the villain seducing the heroine for his advantage, it’s not canon.

Example: Scream (Billy/Sidney), Kim Possible (Kim/Shego), Mulan (Mulan x Shan Yu), World Without End (Carys x Edward), Sky High (Layla x Warren), Star Wars (Obi-Wan x Padmé), Richard III (Anne x Richard), Tesis (Angela x Bosco)

[romancevsreality-blog]

bachelor in paradise, season four, episodes five and six: oh, someone on this show has a real job?

When I remember that this show is in its fourth season I’m kind of shocked. Season four seems to be in its own universe. It doesn’t seem real - perhaps because in my mind, this show was cancelled for a bit - but this season doesn’t fit in with the glorious tackiness of the first three seasons of Fuck Island: The Worst Is Yet To Come. We don’t have an obvious villain, we don’t have a couple to root for, we don’t even have any real comedy that isn’t shoehorned in. It just feels like we’re watching hidden footage of a horrible college Spring Break with a frat and sorority house. It’s lost its initial spark primarily because these people all associate with each other off camera too, so it’s not like they can’t try something later on. There’s no excitement or intrigue. It’s just another reality show intended to be a “peek into another world”.

I miss back when they were strangers who thought people were hot because of what they saw on TV.

Back at the villa, the guys are still in control this week - Taylor & Derek are set, Jasmine & Matt, Kristina/Dean/Danielle are having their own thing, and Jack and Alexis might have a thing. Alexis definitely isn’t into Jack the way Jack is into Alexis, and I’m okay with that. Jack might not be, but Alexis and I are okay with that. There’s a weird scene where Alexis blindfolds Jack and tries to feed him gross things, and Jack actually gets upset when Alexis tries to feed him a gross crab they found. They all try to play it off like he’s being a party pooper but he’s pissed.

Jasmine remains obnoxiously aggressive, asking Matt for massages and talking about choking him. I want her to calm down. Meanwhile, Christen arrives, and I still cannot understand how a Ch spelling = K in pronounciation. YOUR NAME IS KRISTEN OR IT’S CHRISTINE BUT YOU CANNOT HAVE BOTH. It’s so obnoxious to see, so I’m just going to go with any variation of Kristin/Kristine/Christine I feel at that moment.

The Amanda Mitchell Standard of Dislikability on Christen: Someone whose name is spelled like a dumbass.

We’re supposed to remember Christen as being a virgin, and somewhere Ashley Iaconetti is crying because someone is trying to come for her crown and she can’t lose Jared and her virgin status (but not her virginity) in the same year. No, sir. Jasmine is determined to establish herself as Queen of Paradise and basically tells Christine that all the guys are amazing except Matt. Don’t talk to Matt. Christen declares she’s going to take Matt on a date because that’s who she’s interested in. She also uses AAVE when making fun of Jasmine, my least favorite white-girl trait.

At this point Kristen’s makeup is so smeared she looked like she was shot with the Simpsons makeup gun1 and she’s been in paradise three hours tops. Matt comes over to talk to Cristin, interruping JACKSTONE’s time with her. Qistin tells him that Jasmine pissed on his leg already and Matt’s like, “uh, I ain’t attached to shit.” Kristain tells him he’s very attractive and Matt gets openly flustered like he hasn’t been told that before.

Sorry, Matt. You’re a hot dude.

Kristyn asks Matt on her date. He says yes, even though Jasmine thinks he’s going to say no. Whoops? Matt’s certain that he’s going to give his rose to Jasmine, but he wants to keep his options open. Matt asks Jasmine how she’d feel if he went on this date, and Jasmine entirely rejects the notion that he’s entertaining the idea. Jasmine’s trying to be the cool black girl and passive aggressively is like “have fun, have a GOOD TIME. I’m not MAD. It’s not like she’s going to get his rose, she’s so stupid, stupid Kristine.”

All the girls are like “Wait, you’re not mad?” And Jasmine keeps being really passive aggressive and ranting about it. “She’s wasting her time, they’re not going to have fun.” That passive aggression turns into actual aggression when Jasmine decides that no, she’s going to confront Christian because she’s convinced Kristien lied to her and said she wouldn’t ask Matt out on a date. Jasmine accuses her of being a snake and being slimy because Kristan knew about Jasmine and Matt and has all along - even during the filming break - and she went ahead and did it anyway.

What Jasmine fails to realize is that Matt is the one who told Criston that he wasn’t fully committed to anyone. If Matt had confirmed what Jasmine had said, the situation wouldn’t be like this2. Jasmine doesn’t want to recoginize what’s become glaringly obvious - Matt ain’t into you, girl. Sorry. Jasmine can only describe Christyn as “slimy” and Raven and Taylor talk to Krysten about how she really did nothing wrong.

And she didn’t.

CHRYSTINE AND MATT LITERALLY GO TO A BANANA STAND on their date and I scream. Arrested Development references abound. Meanwhile, back at the villa, we learn The Tale of Scallop Fingers.

Scallop Fingers originated in Ben’s season when Chrysten was in a van with a bunch of girls and got a to-go container of scallops. Scallops are smelly as hell and no one gets them to-go. I don’t know why this story made me nauseated, but here we are. I think this entire season has made me want to barf. Anyway, Kristan was eating the scallops with her fingers at at some point slapped her hand in laughter on Alexis’s shoulder. It’s as bizarre as the “he looked at me while eating a banana” story from this season of The Bachelorette. It’s so obvious the girls regard Christan like they do Lacey - they find her annoying.

I mean, I do too, I’m tired of the “My Personality Is Being a Virgin” trope being played out constantly on reality TV. A lot of her behavior is eye roll-inducing, but so is Jasmine’s. They’re both terrible.

Jasmine is literally so drunk at the villa she can’t stop talking about what a slimy snake Kristinn is. I wouldn’t be shocked if someone found her hunching like Gollum under a tree muttering to herself about Matt and Khristyn and how shitty their date would be. Everyone at the house thinks its going to be a massive shitshow when they come back because Jasmine’s been drinking tequila, and tequila makes me mean, so I can only imagine what it brings out in Jasmine.

As soon as Matt returns from his date, Jasmine tries to climb him. Literally. I’m not joking. He’s not into it but she’s so drunk it kind of doesn’t matter. She dismisses herself and Matt and Krustyn go have drinks and eat shrimp. Uh, that doesn’t hlep the Scallop Fingers thing, Kristan. She walks down with literally shrimp in her hands hugging Sarah and Amanda. COME ON. REALLY.

Someone decided that having My Ex-Boyfriend Wells being the narrator this season wasn’t annoying enough, so they decided to give him a puppet. I’m so glad I broke up with him.

Meanwhile, Jasmine has found out that Matt and Kirsten made out in the ocean and Jasmine rightfully flips out. Everyone - including Dean and Kristina - are like, “Girl, you done fucked up now.” Why are they all afraid of her?

Oh, wait. She’s one of two WOC on this entire island so they need to portray her as aggressive and scary, this is The Bachelor.

Anyway, Jasmine finds out that Matt and Kirstyan are making out in his bedroom and she goes down to have a nice cockblocking session. Or so he thinks - they’re not in the room togeher, she’s upstairs eating tacos.

Meanwhile, Robb(ie) is still DTF with Amanda Never-Shoulders, but she’s too focused on keeping shirts off of her sensitive shoulders to be anything more than friends with him. He’s put some glow sticks in the hot tub because all he wants to do is kiss her face. Amanda pretty much doesn’t know know to tell him she doesn’t want to date him, she just likes him as a person3 and so she ducks his kiss when he tries to kiss her. He claims that’s “mixed signals” and I’m concerned about what a regular signal would be for Robb(ie). This is how rape culture starts.

Blah blah blah, love triangles with Sarah/Adam/Raven and Kristina/Dean/Danielle. Tl;dr: no one feels safe and the dudes want to have their cake and eat it too.

Meanwhile, Taylor and Derek have fallen madly for each other. They’re literally making out under a canopy and they’re trying to work out how things would be post-Paradise. When Taylor mentions that Derek is the type to shut down instead of talking about what’s going on in his life. He flatly says “Fuck you” to her when she mentions this, and she’s not okay with that. Taylor shuts down and immediately is like, “Well, I don’t know if I can do this anymore.”

Uh. I get it. I hate that I get it, I get it.

Taylor’s been in emotionally abusive relationships before, so she shuts down when she sees that behavior recurring. I can understand that - I have a whole bucket of triggers and behaviors I have to explain - but Taylor goes about it in a really roundabout way. She basically flips out and decides they have to break up. It bleeds into the next day, and it just seems like... she just might need a break. A nap, if you will.

Going into the rose ceremony no one has any type of clue what’s going on.

Adam and Dean are both leading on women and telling them what they want to hear, which makes me hate them both.

Diggy has barely spoken to Lacey since Dominique made her way on the scene, and Lacey’s reaction is so OTT I don’t understand it. She tells him she’s upset that he went on a date with Dominique right after their date, and without checking in with Lacey. She spent one afternoon with him and she’s talking about feeling disrespected and disappointed. He’s not ya boyfriend, Lacey. You can’t tell him he’s not the person you thought you knew because you barely knew him. Diggy tells her he’s giving his rose to Dominique.

I don’t feel bad for her.

Taylor and Derek finally make up. She wants him to be able to process his feelings out loud instead of in his brain. He apologizes, and things are Gucci4.

Meanwhile, Khrystin (who can’t walk in her sandals on the sand) and Matt sit around and talk. Matt didn’t know what he expected in Paradise, but it wasn’t... this. Matt tells Khristine that there’s no way that she’s getting his rose tonight, unfortunately. Jasmine hates Rose Ceremonies because she’s anxious for what’s to come. Matt’s happy he came to Paradise buuuuut... he’s going home. He’s leaving Paradise. Jasmine cries.

Oh no. What to do?

Literally we get 5 minutes of Jasmine and Kristeen crying. And then the two of them jumping on JACKSTONE because he’s the only one with a free rose as of that moment.

And then...

Enter Daniel, AKA Candy Lambz.

Oh, god.

End Act One.

Enter Act Two.

Y’all I get that we’re supposed to be surprised, but Daniel, whose body literally looks like a bunch of grapes, is the apple in your bag of Halloween candy kind of surprise. It’s okay, but it’s not like, I dunno, a bottle of vodka or something.5 Basically, now that Daniel’s there, all the girls without roses get thirsty. Daniel literally calls the leftover girls “scraps” and Lacey swoons.

Why is it unsurprising that Lacey is super into dudes who treat her like shit? Of course she likes the guy who behaves as if being mean and “honest” is actually “super funny”. It’s also such a trait for mediocre white men. Lacey calls him “witty and smart” and I barf. Come ON, Lacey.

The Amanda Mitchell Standard of Dislikability on Daniel: “Colin Kaepernick should be in jail!”

Both Kryistyn and Jasmine are going after Daniel’s rose and he’s so aware of it. Both of them whine about Matt to him, but Jasmine even moreso. She claims she was “dumped” which is hysterical.

The rose ceremony starts:

Daniel gives his rose to Lacey.

Jack gives his rose to Cryistin.

Matt comes back!!!!! He literally seems miserable. He came back to give Jasmine his rose becuase she deserves it, not because he’s coming back for her. She accepts his rose with the happiness of a petulant child.

Derek gives his rose to Taylor.

Robb(ie) gives his rose to Amanda.

Diggy gives his rose to Dominique.

Adam gives his rose to Raven.

Dean gives his rose to Kristina.

Ben Z. gives his rose to Danielle.

Sarah and Alexis are going home, and... well. I don’t care.

The next day, some Mexican Wrestlers come in and wake everyone in the house up in order to deliver Candy Lambz a date card. Lacey’s sure af that Daniel’s date card is for her, but he wants to play the scene for a bit. His conversation with Krsysitidfsdin immediately shifts into virgin territory, Jasmine can’t stop talking about Matt. Of course he’s into Kristina but she’s too much of a goddess for him and he’s just... Candy Lambz.

But he decides to go on a date with Lacey. Good for her.

The next day, Jonathan/The Tickle Monster/Buster Bluth arrives. He says the word “tickle” so many times within a 3 minute span I’m concerned it might be an actual fetish and not his “schtick”. He’s wearing a shirt with palm trees on it and I don’t hate it, but he still looks like a mannequin version of Andrew Garfield. All the girls say he’s better looking in person and oh, yeah, he’s a doctor. Let’s not forget that tiny detail.

The Amanda Mitchell Standard of Dislikability on Jonathan: FUCKING TICKLING GOD I HATE TICKLING IT’S THE GOD DAMN WORST

He sits down with Chrysteyn and they hit it off right away - they kiss pretty much straight away and he gives her his date card.

Meanwhile, Lacey and Daniel’s date is luchador wrestling, which I guess is a way to get Daniel shirtless, something I don’t understand why anyone would want to see. Back at the villa, Dean remains the worst. Basically where he’s at is that he likes Kristina, but he wants to bang Danielle. He’s not that crass about it, but that’s the general sentiment. Dean and Kristina slept together the night before, Kristina is all in, and Dean’s just... the worst. He’s been distancing himself from Kristina because he doesn’t know how he feels.

It’s totally fine to be unsure, but Dean’s constantly asking Kristina to be patient until he gets to fuck Danielle is different. He’s not unsure about anything - if he doesn’t do it, he knows he’s missing out on someone who really fucking likes him. He likes how much Kristina likes him, but clearly he likes Danielle more. Kristina is nothing more to him than his backup in case it doesn’t work out. She’s his safety school.

Dean is a weenie. Deanie Weenie Bugle Boy From Company B, he is.

But also: KRISTINA GET YOUR FUCKING SHIT TOGETHER. Dean will keep sleeping with you if you keep sleeping with him! He’s not going to come over and console you when you’re watching him and Danielle play chicken in the pool! He wants to make out with her and bang her a lot while he bangs you still! He’s not a good guy. He’s a bad guy who’s convinced himself he’s a good guy, and that’s even worse.

Krystyn and Buster Bluth sit down to dinner, and it’s so obvious that Chrysten is only interested in him because he’s so successful6. Jonathan has a shirt on with flamingos and I... kind of dig Jonathan’s style. He’s got good beach looks.

Who the fuck keeps giving Wells puppets? Stop it. I know this is his Bachelor audition but god damn it just STOP.

They finally show people eating on this show, and of course, it’s Kriston eating scallops. I hate this franchise. For some reason the show wants us to care about Qryisten and her love life and how she’s now in a love triangle with Buster Bluth and JACKSTONE.

Meanwhile, Dean remains a fuckboy who cannot keep his hands off of Danielle in front of Kristina. Kristina cries to Robb(ie) about feeling disrespected and she literally says the orphange she grew up in is preferable to Paradise.

That’s ice cold, Kristina.

Next Week: Kristina and Raven are getting INTO IT. Krysten finds out about “Scallop Fingers”. Jaimi arrives and of course they assume she’s going to be interested in both boys and girls because she’s bisexual. And ugh, the twins. God, why?!

Random Assessments from the Desk of Amanda:

I’m also disappointed that Chris Harrison isn’t in a robe drinking a mimosa in the opening credits.

The girls from Nick’s season are the fucking worst. I’m sorry.

I’m embarrassed for Jasmine.

WHY IS NO ONE GOING AFTER BEN Z

Matt is the person Dean’s trying to be but Dean wants to be on TV more.

Also, I refuse to believe Jasmine is 26. She’s in her 30s. She has to be.

I just realized that Wells totally thinks he’s Seth Cohen from The OC and it’s definitely his most unlikeable trait.

Has anyone else noticed that Kristina only talks to her guy friends about her Dean issues? I have a feeling it’s because her other friends are tired of hearing about it.

I’ll talk about our new Bachelor in tomorrow’s installment!

 ↩︎

Jasmine has a poor idea of what makes “good television”. She says, “YOU WANT GOOD TELEVISION, ABC? I’LL GIVE YOU GOOD TELEVISION!” and then storms in and... eh. It’s not great. ↩︎

Why? He’s literally human hair gel. ↩︎

That is, tacky and overrated. ↩︎

I had a strange childhood. ↩︎

I also love that Kristyn came in with sleek, flat-ironed hair and gave up on that shit right quick. ↩︎