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marikn · 2 years ago

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Let’s talk about Byler, shall we?

More specifically, I want to talk about my predictions for s5 based on various tidbits I’ve heard about the duffers and their inspiration, and trends in past media.

This is going to be pretty long but just stick with me, I promise it gets good.

(EDIT) This theory is not a happy one and has been upsetting people.

I talk exclusively about my doubts here. If anyone would like to see it, I can make another post about my byler hopes :)

Anyway can someone tell me how to insert a cut

1. Destiel syndrome

Byler reminds me an awful lot of destiel. I never finished watching supernatural, but I definitely heard about what they did in the finale, and I think it’s likely that byler would end up in a similar situation.

I fear making them obviously canon would result in a lot of controversy. I think it’s much more likely that we’d get a scene similar to destiel’s confession, where the “I love you” can be interpreted a couple different ways.

Since Mike and Will often speak in a sort of code, I’m willing to bet Will’s confession will be encoded, and therefore entirely implicit (this ensures that the general audience can interpret it as Will talking about platonic or familial love instead), and Mike will be left stunned/speechless/unable to respond in some way before Will leaves, most likely to go straight to his death (like Castiel).

2. I don’t think we are going to get a byler kiss

As much as I would love to see it, I genuinely don’t think it will happen. There are a couple reasons as to why I think this, mainly having to do with the “bury your gays” trope.

I think Stranger Things has too wide of an audience for a kiss to happen, and I think the duffers know this. Typically, explicit romantic interactions in same-sex couples are avoided (unless the intended audience is the lgbtq community) because straight people don’t want to see that. No matter how beautifully a love story might be written, there are people who will claim they forced it for representation, people who will say it ruined the show, and people who will outright cover their eyes in disgust (I’m not exaggerating— I live with people who do this). It’s too much of a risk, especially with how popular the show has gotten.

All in all, there are too many “normal” people who watch st, and an on-screen queer kiss between two main characters would prompt too much backlash.

3. Star Wars parallels

The duffers have said they’ll be drawing inspiration for season 5 from Return of the Jedi. As it is, we can already see some parallels between the Star Wars characters and the stranger things characters (max in a coma/han in carbonite, el lifting nina/Luke lifting the ship). Assuming that Henry/Vecna/001 is meant to be Palpatine, I see two logical options for Darth Vader’s parallel.

One: Eddie. This ties into the kas!eddie theory a bit, but Vader’s origin began with Anakin’s defeat. Obi-wan battled Anakin and left him for dead on a remote planet, and he would have died if not for Palpatine and the suit he’d made for him. Palpatine remade Anakin entirely and gave him an all new identity— which could be a possibility between 001 and Eddie, now that we know the numbers have the ability to revive (el reviving max’s body in the finale).

Two: Will. This is the more likely option. In Star Wars, Palpatine poisoned Anakin’s mind by using his own fear against him (Anakin was seeing visions of his wife Padme dying, and was desperately searching for a way to save her). Palpatine took Anakin’s weakness and applied the necessary manipulation to mold him into a tool.

Much like Anakin’s “death” at the hands of Obi-wan, we can assume that Will Byers “died” in 1983 when he disappeared. When he came back, his mind was compromised, which allowed the mindflayer to take control of him. Much like Anakin, Will would (in theory) be willing to do whatever it takes to keep his loved ones safe, which will lead to his downfall (villain arc not included).

If they were to parallel Will and Vader like this, they would turn Will onto the path of the tragic hero archetype. At the end of Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader turns on Palpatine in order to save Luke, sacrificing his own life in the process. Remember when I said Will would confess to Mike right before walking into his doom?

4. Every ending has a beginning

Will Byers is going to die.

This show started with Will, and it will end with Will. Most likely, he will sacrifice himself for the sake of his friends and family. Once he does, I can see us getting a shot of Mike holding his body (probably similar to Richie and Eddie from IT) and only then will we get a glimpse of how Mike really feels about Will.

Will’s sacrifice will either destroy Vecna, or give El the upper hand so that she can kill him herself (this is, after all, her unfinished business). However it plays out, I have low expectations of Will actually making it through. The duffers seems to have been foreshadowing this, too.

Will has never had a happy childhood. Even before the Upside Down, he had Lonnie and the bullies weighing him down. He’s been doomed since the start; all throughout the show, he can’t seem to catch a break. He alone is linked to the upside down— to Vecna. We even see the two of them heavily paralleled through Vecna’s backstory (being “sensitive” children, not getting along with other kids, drawing the mindflayer). He’s been put through so much, time and time again, and it all reads very similarly to Harry Potter’s “pig for slaughter” storyline.

Like Harry with Voldemort, Will was marked and linked to Vencna when he was taken into the upside down. From then on, he’s been able to feel Vecna’s presence in his mind and in Hawkins whenever he’s active, the same way Harry can feel Voldemort’s presence through his scar. They have a permanent connection, whether they like it or not, and the only way to break it is for one of them to die. Obviously, since this is the final season, they will find a way to defeat Vecna. I will not be surprised, however, if that way requires Will to die somehow.

Only this time, there won’t be a way for him to come back.

(insert genius and well-crafted conclusion here) Basically: it’s not looking good for byler.

#mike wheeler #will byers #save Will Byers #stranger things 4 #stranger things #stranger things spoiler #stranger things theory #stranger things 5 #stranger things 5 theory #st vecna

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lol-jackles · 3 years ago

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ive been in all sorts of shipping fandoms from sterek to WangXian. And there are always a few persons who think the actors are secretly dating in real life or secretly lgbtq but the delusional hysteria in the destiel/cockles corner takes the cake. I just assumed that the majority of them are young and gullible but damn even back when I was 17 and shipping J2 I didn't actually BELIEVE they were together together. these idiots need to get off the internet for a year or two.

3 ingredients went into Destiel/Cockles' delusional hysteria:

The longevity of the show kept the hope up that this season will be the season their ship will become canon even right up to the finale (because bibros got their finale in 15x19)

During the show's record-breaking longevity Misha was feeding their hope that the ship can and will become canon

Kink shame over their fetish

It's the main reason why they can't stop crying over the finale two years later because they spend over a DECADE emotionally invested, not to mention the ungodly amount of money they spent that most of them couldn't afford to spend because they still need a "win" to show for all their DECADE worth of commitment.

Cockle ship happened because sane Destiel shippers knew they weren’t even getting Destiel subtext on the show (they don’t subscribe to “bi-color secret message bullshit) so they went after Cockles and trying to prove Jensen and Misha are friends/besties/lovers. Because they noticed that non-shippers were siding with Wincest shippers because Jared and Jensen have a weird close friendship in real life. That’s why they are so desperate to somehow prove Jensen/Misha’s friendship is real or even are secret lovers because then they can say they see Destiel because of their friendship/lovers, not because of the show that doesn’t give them text or subtext for their fetish ship.

From there Cockle tinhatters produced conspiracies like Catholic rabbits. Here, let me show you how the Cockle tinhatters’ mind operates:

-For the one hour that Jensen was talking about Jared he was really talking about Misha because he looked down for 5 seconds and that is code for Misha because he has 5 letters in his name.

-Jensen uprooted and dragged his family halfway across the country to live less than a mile from Jared because he’s totally in love with Misha but instead he’s going to stalk Jared to cover up his feelings.

-Whenever Misha looks tired (which, to be honest is all the time), it means he’s missing Jensen. When ever Misha strokes Jared’s hair (which, to be honest we all want to do), it means he’s thinking of Jensen.

-A bug landed on Misha. The bug was identified as Delusionex Hilarius and has blue and green stripes. Obvious case of color coding for Cockles.

#destiel #anti destiel #cockle #anti cockle

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happyduckierevived · 3 months ago

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*laughter and shuffling stack of imaginary papers that make up an imaginary essay concerning this subject

Yes, and no. Here is why:

Supernatural is very long. It ran from 2005–2020. The style, fashion, and writing of the earlier-mid seasons are definitely 2000s/early 2010s. So it can be dated or nostalgic depending on how you look at it.

Supernatural is tv. It’s not a film, it’s not a contained limited series story. It is an ongoing thing that has lots of filler episodes (season 7 is kind of joked about as the filler season), different arcs, character development and un—development (for plot reasons), characters that come and go, etc. If you’re looking for a linear story with a satisfying beginning middle and end with little to no filler, Supernatural is not that. It’s got a sort of monster of the week structure that leads into a larger plot, but as the show progresses, the monster of the week and larger plot intersect less and less/often not at all. It’s a fun show, but it is not a full on epic. If you’re fine with that, and can accept that’s it’s a soap opera-esque show but with monsters—you’ll probably like watching most of Supernatural. (Watching a few seasons to finish with a good ending is also great way to enjoy the show.)

How women are written. It gets better in later seasons, but in the beginning it is a lot of one-episode female characters who are objectified and/or fit into tropes. It just feels weird. It’s not appalling or cancelable, considering the time. I don’t exactly remember the earlier parts of Supernatural where this was the most present—so forgive me if my language is wrong or if I am making over generalizations over a few scenes with multiple seasons. I am going off of memory for this, and Supernatural is long. Okay, back to the subject….Not all of the women on Supernatural are written poorly, and there are great characters that are female. A few 1 or 2 episode characters, a few characters who are temporarily in the main group, awesome side characters, a villain or two, etc.

4. The fandom is…interesting. The lines between actors and characters is blurred for some, and this leads to some very choice works. (Not trying to shame anyone—but personally, I can’t unsee some of these things and I really do not agree with them)

Okay partial Spoilers Beyond This Point—they aren’t plot specific, but if you wanted to go into Supernatural completely blind, this is your chance to go do that.

5. Destiel- In season 4, a character named Castiel appears. Yada, yada, yada, the rest of the show, yada, yada, subtle/not so subtle queerness, yada, yada, yada, him and one of the main characters are both queer coded. Based off different factors, it seems that the two characters share romantic feelings for each other. Then, in season 15, we get to that meme where it’s a guy saying “I love you” and then another guy staring at him with text inserted that informs people on tumblr about local events/news. That’s between Castiel and Dean, aka Destiel. Now, what’s important to understand is that Dean does not say it back to Castiel. He says “don’t do this” because Castiel is going to go sacrifice himself to save someone/something/the world, idk, etc. After this confession Castile dies, we never get verbal confirmation that Dean reciprocated those feelings and loved him back (I think. I haven’t gotten here in the show yet but I’m 99.99% sure). Nor do we ever get a kiss or any explicitly romantic things or statements within the show to tell us that they are gay for each other. Now I’m sure you’re wondering why this one queer-bating ship matters, but stay with me here. Destiel is a big part of this fandom. There’s all sorts of things about the Spanish dub (where Dean says I love you back to Cas before sacrifices himself—it was in the script), the actors of Dean and Cas and how they feel about Destiel, the actor for Dean not feeling like “I love you” was the best line for his character to say in that situation, people shipping the actors and characters as one (which is weird because the actors both have wives and children, I’m pretty sure), and probably more. But there are also people who just like this ship and are normal about it. Generally though, it’s a pretty messy part of the fandom. Some people hate Destiel with a burning passion, some people have lives, some people like it or love it as a ship, and others…go off the deep end.

6. Death. I’ll keep this final one short and sweet. Main characters (and sometimes others) die and come back to life all the time in Supernatural. It is joked about in the show, in the fandom, and who knows where else. Death sometimes is a one time thing, but for the main two characters (Dean and Sam—who you meet on the first episode) death is more of a temporary annoyance than an extremely serious, high buildup affair (of course there are exceptions to this, but the amount of time people die and come back in Supernatural is truly not something to be underestimated).

And that’s all I can think of. I personally like Supernatural and Destiel, so that is my bias. I think Supernatural can be something good to have on in the background, watch with a friend, or binge (it has its moments). There’s definitely some weird stuff in and around the show—but I would say most of it is pretty avoidable. There is also a huge fandom full of really talented people who make great art, fan fiction, point out beautiful shots from the show, and more.

Hope this helped!

feel like this is a good question to ask tumblr

but uhhh

is supernatural any good?

#supernatural #spn #rant post #destiel #dean winchester #spanish dub #tv shows

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casgirl · 4 years ago

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god like. we’re never gonna get another gay character like cas ever again and we’re never gonna get a gay love story like destiel ever again. like queerbaiting isnt what it used to be and now it means like movies promising a gay character then it being some random background guy, like its not creating homoerotic moments and gay coding main characters who like HAVE nuance and ARE interesting. like even big ships today don’t pack nearly as big of a punch as like what everyone was doing in like 2008-2014. queerbait is a dying art.

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hellolimitless · 4 years ago

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Why queerbaiting is happening in tv show

The term Queerbaiting blew up since the last decade. It’s replacing coded representation from the 20th century which was when laws were prohibiting lgbtq representation and productions could only gives hint at a potential same sex relationship. There are multiple definitions of queerbaiting but what I am talking about here is showing sexual ambiguity between two characters whether it’s flirting, some sort of attraction or other people mistaken them as a couple and never denied by the pairing but the couple never came to fruition. It’s not the same as shipping a non-canon pairing as basically every character can be shippable with other characters even with the ones they barely interacted with. It’s really the consistent interaction that look similar to how characters behave when they are attracted to someone.

Reason 1 : have the cake and eat it too

I also call it the Albus Dumbledore method which is basically trying to please lgbtq people and straight ally by giving something queer but not showing anything because of the risk of losing a conservative audience or receive backlash. One exemple we can give is with the character Dumbledore on the Harry Potter saga where nothing about his sexuality was hinted neither on the movies or the books and it’s the author that revealed it to fans after the last book was published in 2007. People let it pass for the Harry Potter saga as it was a different time but it received criticism when the crimes of Grindelwald showed only a former platonic relationship between Grindelwald and Dumbledore when the author during the press tour described their relationship as « a passionate love affair ».

Reason 2 : Queer characters can never be the leads

Most of the pairing known for its queerbaiting are the leads of their respective show (Destiel, Sherlock and Watson, Merlin and Arthur and many more). When we look at all the canon gay couple, they are either recurring characters or main characters part of an ensemble full of straight. Unless the movie or the show is about the coming out story and center around the lgbtq experience (Love Simon/Victor, Pose, Alex Strangelove), the queer characters will always only be the sidekick on the side and the spotlight will be on the straight characters/couple. Of course they are some exceptions where the main is queer and the plot of the show has nothing to do with their sexuality (the politician and the magician) the problem is those shows are not mainstream as they are either on a small cable channel or not popular with the general public which can be the reason why they were able to put the main character as queer as they have a lesser reach to the audience.

Reason 3 : the refusal of the show/actors

The persistence of the fans always reach the ears of the showrunners/producers/actors and it always end in denial, saying how they never meant to hint at anything romantic and the pairing are going to stay platonic. It’s definitely a refusal from them to canonised the convoited pairing as ton of straight couple got put together when it was not in the plan but just fans liking the ship is enough to make them canon. Even Joey and Rachel of Friends got a storyline at the end of the show and they make little to no sense. It can be the higher up refusing because they already have enough lgbtq representation (and we all know that they have a certain limit while straight are unlimited) or the fear of losing viewers by introducing a new gay storyline. But something never talked about it’s the actors refusing to be paired in a gay relationship, we know from other actors playing queer roles that during the casting search the roles are detailed, the actors have to know it’s a gay character and have no problem with same sex intimacy. While fans demand might sometimes be approved by the creators, the actors has to accept the new relationship when they signed for a straight role and unfortunately there are still a lot of actors not wanting to play a gay role. My personal opinion but I suspect it’s what happened for Destiel and Buddy, the showrunners of supernatural literally said they took months to talk to Jensen ackles about the confession scene because they feared his reaction and said the scene could only go on if he gave his consent and nothing happened in this scene beside a man crying about an unrequited love and dying the next second. For buddy, we all know 9-1-1 is an lgbtq friendly show with multiple queer characters so yes it can be because there are enough lgbtq representation for them,like I said, but I think it’s coming from the actors and now that they are estranged to each other’s, it’s never going to happen.

But now let’s look like at what happen when a straight character become queer or a pairing shipped by fans become canon :

Eve and villanelle (killing Eve)

Actually they got criticised and accused of queerbaiting for the portrayal of the relationship during the two first seasons. But in season 3, they decided to make them kiss and the kiss got well received which show once again that there is nothing risky with having two leads being queer.Notice that they are the only couple from an American show in the list.

Christian and Oliver (Verbotene liebe)

The show verbotene liebe is a soap opera from 1995 to 2015. The character Oliver Sabel ( Purple shirt) was introduced in 1999 and left in 2002 and then came back in 2007. The character Christian Mann came in 2006 and was established as straight only paired with women while Oliver was Bi but more attracted to men. When Oliver came back, the head writer decided to pair the two together and this storyline proved to be a gold mine for the show as they received a huge international following with their cut on YouTube having millions of views and are considered a supercouple.

Aris and Temo ( El corazon nunca se equivoca/ Mi marido tiene mas familia)

The character Aris (middle) appeared in Mi marido tiene familia as a straight character and Temo (left) character came in the second season called Mi marido tiene mas familia, Temo was written as gay since his introduction but he was meant to be paired with Diego (right). The fans liked Aris and Temo better together as Temo had a crush on Aris that the pairing changed and what did they got : an extreme international attention, got noticed by Ricky Martin, became the first ever gay couple to have a telenovela, with 2 millions of viewers in average, won awards and had sold out concert.

It was proved multiple times that a gay couple brings attention to the show and not the contrary as certain Hollywood specialist want to make it believe. Shows has absolutely nothing to lose and in contrary, they gain recognition and help thousand of people all around the world with their representation. But unfortunately Queerbaiting do not stop and the disappointment of fans continue to be bigger.

#queerbaiting #queer community #lgbtq #gay representation #lgbtq representation #destiel #johnlock #evan buckley #killing eve #aristemo #chrolli #gay couple #lgbtq community #media #tv show #buddy

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samisadeangirl · 1 year ago

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THIS. If you have to use words like interpret, subtext, coding, off-screen, etc. in your justification, then what you're talking about is a headcanon. There's nothing wrong with that--we all have headcanons about various things--but it doesn't make your opinion a textual part of the show. Canon is purely what happens onscreen, i.e. what the characters actually say or do, and everything else is nothing more than fanon. Which again isn't a bad thing by any means--unless you start to confuse the two.

For example, it's canon that Dean is straight because onscreen he has said multiple times he's interested in women or not interested in men (as have Jensen, Kripke, and other cast/crew) and has only had romantic or sexual interactions with woman. Any "subtext"* or "interpretation" that he's bisexual is purely headcanon because it's not based on what is shown on the screen (and needs to be careful that it's not based on homophobic and toxic masculinity-based stereotypes).

It's also canon that Dean considers Castiel as no more than a friend or adoptive family since onscreen Dean treats Castiel at best no different than his other friends--he's sometimes happy to see Cas but doesn't seek out his company, he doesn't go to extreme measures to save Cas, and he mourns Cas' death(s) briefly before moving on--and at worse is dismissive and annoyed around Cas, insults him, and has no problem abandoning him in dangerous situations (usually to save SAM). Plus it's unavoidably canon that Dean ALWAYS puts Sam first before everyone else, including Castiel. Once again, any "subtext"* or "interpretation" that Dean is attracted to or in love with the angel is purely headcanon because it's not supported by what happens onscreen.

Likewise, it's canon that Castiel loves Dean because he said so onscreen. However, "interpreting" that love as romantic is only a headcanon because his speech in 15.18 Despair only references familial and altruistic love, and his actions onscreen over the course of 12 seasons show that Cas is only attracted to women (when he feels attraction at all) and that his relationship with Dean is at most platonic and is often antagonistic--Cas too only seeks Dean out when one of them needs help and is often impatient and annoyed with him, and he's repeatedly lied to, gas-lit, threatened, abandoned, assaulted, and betrayed Dean.

Like what OP wrote above, this is not meant to say that you shouldn't ship Destiel or depict Dean as bi in fan content (regardless of ship) or whatever else. If interpreting subtext to create these headcanons makes you happy, then you do you, Boo. Just keep in mind that these fantasies are simply that, and don't let yourself get worked up or worse attack other fans, cast, or crew over them.

*Before anyone tries to argue, subtext on TV shows, movies, etc. does NOT work the way certain shippers desperately want it to. Subtext is meant to support the main narrative of the show and is meant to be obvious enough that the general audience can notice and understand. A good example of actual subtext is a flashback to Sam and Dean's childhood that parallels or reveals something about what's happening in the present. However, subtext is NOT meant to tell an entirely separate story from the main narrative or meant be so "subtle" that only a small number of obsessed fans see it. Thus for example, no show ever would present a character as straight in the main narrative but use "subtext" to claim the character is actually queer--once again, that's purely fanon.

Anti-destiel Wank (sorry but I have to)

If you hardcore ship Destiel, please just scroll on by. Please.

Ok, I’m gonna get myself in trouble, I’m sure, but I gotta get this off my chest…

Keep reading

#fan discussion #shipping issues #canon vs fanon #learn the difference #this isn't rocket science #dean is straight #dean is not in love with castiel #castiel loves dean as a brother #that is canon #everything else is fanon

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dotthings · 4 years ago

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I’d understand people yelling about “bury your gays” if that happened in the series finale but there are 2 eps left to go on SPN, Cas has already gone to The Empty and come back twice, all the main characters have died and came back multiple times, the author of 15.18 already wrote 2 major parallel precedents of what is Cas’s likely next trajectory is (maybe an overlap of points in Rowena’s arc and Kaia’s both). Cas didn’t go out passively or just to make Dean suffer, he went to The Empty by his own choice, fulfilling his own arc, it wasn’t a stray bullet, and the story isn’t over and his story isn’t over. Until the final credits roll of SPN I think it’s sensible to hold off judging until then. Also people removing 15.18 from all context to hurl vitriol, or concern trolling, some of whom don’t even go here, don’t know the show at all, some of whom are very bitter shippers with a grudge against the show, and some of whom are outright anti-destiel from spn fandom with a years long hate fixation against an LGBT ship that just went out of closet fully confirmed canon after years of subtext and queer coding, need to check themselves.

#mildew #destiel

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inthememetime · 3 years ago

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Do they text? Gandalf + The Company (and bonus Dís & Tauriel)

Thorin: Yes, but only when he's in a happy or normal mood. When upset, he calls or it's complete silence. He prefers texting to calling in general.

Dwalin: No. In fact, every time someone texts him, he just calls them or physically goes out to find them and talk face to face.

Oin: Yes, he does. He didn't when texting first came out, but due to his hearing loss, he finds it really useful.

Gloin: He is in 5 group chats right now, and spamming all of them with pictures of his children's sporting events, family vacations, and baby pictures.

Bifur: Not really. He uses a Nokia flip phone from the 90s. When he does text, he amazes literally everyone by how fast he can do it on that little thing.

Bofur: Yes, but there are so many autocorrect mistakes that nobody can understand him half the time.

Bombur: He thinks texting is too impersonal, and prefers to call or meet face to face. He will happily make an exception for sending pictures of food.

Balin: Yes. Especially when dealing with work, because he's a fan of CYA, and texts are, legally speaking, written and can be used in a court of law. Everyone is always surprised due to his age.

Dori: V e r y s l o w l y. W I t h l o t s o f e r e r s. C a n y o u j u s t c a l l m e ?

Ori: Yes! He loves to text because he's a little quiet and shy over the phone or face to face.

Nori: No, and he doesn't for the same reason Balin does. The only times he texts are answering texts from Ori or when he needs an alibi.

Fíli: All the time. To friends, family, pretty girls, pretty boys, pretty people in general. He's also the main one Thorin calls over to translate Bofur's autocorrects. He also texts people back to back one word by word until they respond if he feels like being a jerk.

Kíli: Yes, and outside of family, it tends to be strange conversations. Fíli is pretty sure dinosaurs are code for something in his and Tauriel's convos, but he is a paleontology major and she's a biology major, so maybe not? And why is he talking about ships and cannons so much? Thorin does not ask him to translate txt spch because once, Kíli told him LOL meant Lots of Love, and then he got a lot of angry calls from relatives when his grandfather finally kicked the bucket passed away.

(Dinosaurs are not code, but ice cream flavors are! He doesn't even eat ice cream, he's lactose intolerant.)

Tauriel: Pretty much exclusively to Dís, Kíli, Fíli, or Legolas. And she is a Forensic Pathology major, thank you very much Fíli! 50% of her convos are school or fic and fanart related with Kíli, the other half is for everyone else. She likes to send him pictures of half completed fanart and make him guess what it will be.

Bilbo: Usually, yeah. He's bad about getting distracted and forgetting he had a text though thanks to ADHD, so it's best to call him if you need something ASAP.

Gandalf: This man has to keep up with so many people. He's in 12 group chats, regrets all of them, and yet still asks for gossip.

Dís: Yes. She is also the only one who does understand Kíli's texts about ships and canons. They have a long running bet on how many Destiel, Johnlock, Tasertricks, and Matt/Foggy references they can make before anyone picks up on it.

This is also the reason Kíli has two AO3 accounts. He posts the cute, family friendly ones on the account his mom know about, and his...less family friendly ones on the other.

#modern au #the hobbit #texting headcannons #thorin #and his company #kili is a fanfic author and you can't stop me

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curioussubjects · 4 years ago

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come be a season 12 truther with me; or what if dean and cas got together offscreen

Originally, I wrote this post to celebrate “Galaxy Brain” airing as Berens & Glynn gave us “The Future.” It’s been a while since that episode aired, and some things have changed about this meta. As such, there are multiple versions of this post floating around, so make sure to go back to the source for the most up to date version. For all intents and purposes, this post functions as a meta manifesto not unlike shipping manifestos from days of LJ past. In keeping with that tradition, this post is a close reading of Dabb Era Destiel in which I argue that by using narrative gaps, queer coding, and romance tropes, Dean and Cas are shown to be in an established relationship. Although beyond the scope of this post, it’s worth pointing out that keeping Destiel mostly off screen was a way for the creatives to bypass network censorship while still remaining true to the characters.

This post is divided into three sections. Section I focuses on giving an overview of why earlier seasons of Supernatural aren’t as compelling as season 12 as a turning point for Dean and Cas’s relationship. That said, special consideration is given to 09.06 “Heaven Can’t Wait” as a potential rest stop in our journey due to it’s significantly placed narrative gap as well as themes in the episode. However, this post isn’t going to examine season 9 trutherism in depth, though it does coexist with and allow for it. Section II analyses season 12 and proposes a timeline and justification for the shifting Destiel dynamic. Finally, Section III will offer an analysis of how Dean and Cas’s relationship has changed dramatically from previous seasons in a way that is most like the shift from a “will they or won’t they” pairing to an established one.

Before I move to Section I, I’d like to note something this post takes for granted: Dean and Cas are the main romantic subplot of Supernatural, and, in fact, their relationship is elevated to main plot for both characters in season 15. This post won’t argue about the canonicity of Dean and Cas’s feelings for each other, therefore, and so won’t spend time looking at many Destiel defining moments. I’d also like to make clear that this post also takes for granted that Destiel is being intentionally developed by the writers starting with Carver’s Era, and more so in Dabb’s.

I. Why Seasons 4 through 11 May Not be It

The tl;dr. here is that while there are many moments throughout these seasons that Dean and Cas could potentially get together, none of those moments are ideal for a bunch of reasons that can be summed up as really bad timing. I also think the narrative is actively pushing them towards a moment that works. We get plenty of stepping stones, especially once we hit seasons 8 through 11 (and 11 most of all).

Seasons 4 & 5:

I know there’s been a lot of get together fics over the years set in this time period, but I just don’t see it. Do I see them being intrigued and drawn to each other? Yes. Do I think either Cas or Dean would act on it? Nope. I’m not arguing anything re: Dean’s feelings, but with everything going at the time I find it hard to believe he’d pursue anything with his angel friend. Most importantly here, though, is that during this time Cas was still very alien and other. There was too much angel in him, and while he obviously came to care about Dean (and Sam) very much, I just can’t see him navigating the realm of human relationships. That said, seeing human!Cas in “The End” is the first we see of potential developments for how Cas could behave without his angelness interfering. Being human changes Cas a lot, beyond even his experience existing among humans, though that of course matters too. This development will be important later /wink.

Seasons 6 & 7:

Before anything else let me just recognize that if we could see some sexual tension in seasons 4 & 5, these two seasons come with our first taste of romantic tension. The pining! Also note the difference between season 4 Cas and season 6 Cas in terms of behaviour. He is much less the angel we saw in that barn in “Lazarus Rising.” In season 6, we have a Cas making misguided decisions guided entirely by his emotions – namely, not wanting to involve Dean with the war in heaven – which is peak human, honestly. Put a pin on how sad Dean is in both seasons with Cas’s absence. Finally, put a pin on this being our first moment of Cas doing things on his own to spare Dean and it not ending well (soulless!Sam, Cas “dying” after Leviathan) because this is *the* hurdle in their relationship (along with Dean’s lashing out and self-worth issues). With all this said, the marked distance between Dean and Cas in these seasons negates the possibility of them entering into any kind of relationship. Much like seasons 4 and 5, there’s too much going on.

Season 8:

Ah, yes, the summer of purgatory. If you thought we had pining before…! I think we’re all very clear on season 8 being a turning point for the show, not only because new showrunner, but we also get the bunker. TFW now has an HQ, which pretty soon becomes home. Yes, Baby will always be home, but the bunker becomes the *unmovable* safe haven that Baby couldn’t be. The bunker is a place to coalesce, and for all the amazing things Baby is, she is not that. The acquisition of the bunker marks a shift in the psychology of the show: with the stable home space we can start to imagine domesticity, a place to come home to, the stuff of ordinary living. Most of all, the bunker is emblematic of security, of safety –keep this in mind, as we go forward.

This season also continues to see Cas go down the path of independently solving his problems instead of asking for help from Sam and Dean (his family in a way heaven never was) – note that the better together issue is at play in different ways with Sam and Dean also, but I digress. I also want to point out disastrous instance #2 of Cas’s insistence on figuring it out on his own: he loses his grace, and the angels fall. As for Dean, season 8’s focus for him has much to do with Sam, and them coming face to face with their issues with codependency, which hit catastrophic levels with the gates of hell and Gadreel plots.

So despite all the deliciously angsty get together purgatory fics and spec, there’s too much distance between Dean and Cas on Cas’s part due to his guilt over betraying the Winchesters in s6 plus slaughtering angels plus unleashing Leviathan. We do see Dean being more emotionally open with Cas and continue to voicing his wish that Cas would just stay with him and Sam, and let them help. It’s clear as day how much Dean cares. The timing is still bad, though.

Before moving on to next season, let’s take a moment to appreciate that this is the season Dean admits being kinda done with one night stands because “always with the adios.” Remember the bunker as a sign of stability? Yeah. I wouldn’t say Dean is craving a relationship, exactly, but I think we can see that he does want something more (ahem also I’m nodding to Cas refusing to stay put just cause).

Seasons 9 & 10:

The most important thing to happen between this two seasons is Cas’s stint as a human for an extended period of time. There’s been plenty of spec and meta written over the years about the effects of being human on Cas’s grace (a proto-soul now maybe?). What we can say for sure, regardless, is that Cas is much more humanized once he becomes an angel again. The understanding he gets from being human doesn’t go away once he regains his angel powers. You’ll notice that while we still see some of season 4’s characterization, Cas is not the same as he was – he is alien to angels now and is more intelligible to humans. Additionally, in an interesting reversal from previous seasons, we now get to see the depth of Cas’s feelings for Dean (thanks, Metatron) as well as seeing him be more open emotionally, while Dean does most of the pushing away (first because of Gadreel, then because of the Mark of Cain). In short, the timing is still bad as Dean and Cas are largely kept apart both physically and emotionally.

9.06 Heaven Can’t Wait

This episode is my white whale, friends. While I’ve come to fully subscribe to the idea that something did happen between Dean and Cas during the fanfic gap, I don’t actually think it’s feasible that it marked the start of a relationship -- be it sexual or romantic. My reasoning here is quite simple: the timing is bad. Were it not for external events (Cas regaining his Grace and Dean taking on the MoC), the course would have likely differed. Furthermore, Dean’s guilt over making Cas leave the bunker as well as Cas’s own hurt and self-loathing pose a significant and as yet insurmountable obstacle, which is easily seen with how Dean and Cas’s character trajectories go separate ways.

YMMV on what exactly happened between them in that Motel, but something definitely did. Perhaps one day I’ll have a proper s9 trutherism post to link to here for more details (likely won’t be written by me, though).

10.16 Paint It Black

From the point Dean gets the MoC until the end of season 10, anything between him and Cas is quite impossible due to distancing, to say the least. Again, yes, the fic is really good, but alas. One of the reasons I’m bringing up this episode in particular is because of the confession scene. One, it’s a rare bit of explicit emotional honesty from Dean, and two, it tells me that while he and Cas may be well aware of the Thing™ between them, it’s still uncharted waters. It’s scary, and murky, and they’re unsure how to navigated it or if they should even try. Makes sense, too, there’s been A LOT going on since s6. Anyway, he’s the full confession:

You know, the life I live, the work I do…I pretty much just figured that that was all there was to me, you know? Tear around and jam the key in the ignition and haul ass until I ran out of gas. I guess I just thought sooner or later, I’d go out the same way that I live – pedal to the metal, and that would be it. […] Now, um… recent events, uh… make me think I might be closer to that than I really thought. And…I don’t know. I mean, you know, there’s – there’s things, there’s…people, feelings that I-I-I want to experience differently than I have before, or maybe even for the first time. […] Yeah, I’m just starting to think that… maybe there’s more to it all than I thought.

Can I just say, first, that this confession keeps me up at night because we never actually see anything done with it explicitly? I mean, obviously, I think we do in fact see the effects of this confession in the show, otherwise I wouldn’t be writing this behemoth, but still, like. Damn. Ok, so, remember when I brought up that thing in season 7 about Dean being kinda done with hook-ups? Here’s where that led us. We’re seeing a Dean here who wants more than what he has convinced himself he gets to have. He wants more than dying bloody. And when he talks about wanting to experience people and feelings differently, well, that says a lot not just on the queer coding front or the romantic front. I mean, jfc, Dean is accepting the idea that he can have more in life than just hunt until he drops, and he’s specifically talking about experiences at the interpersonal level.

Do you ever see a character having an epiphany and find yourself wanting to cry because this is it right here. Dean is just blatantly admitting he wants more and maybe he can make himself be open to that (!!!), which all culminates in season 11, so…

Season 11:

The pining is still here, but it’s worse now since it’s the whole plot? It’s been *checks calendar* 5 years of this. How are any of us still kicking I don’t know. Your slow burns could never. Cool worth noting points: Cas says yes to Lucifer (bad decision #2.5, lots of mitigating effects_I don’t actually hold it against him that much but Dean is another story & not entirely rational at this point); for the first time since the early days, Dean and Cas are on equal grounds: they’ve both fucked up a lot and have hurt each other. The issues this season are outside their dynamic. Amara and Lucifer here serve as externalizing forces for Dean and Cas’s problems: Cas checks out with Lucifer because he thinks it’s the only way he can help, Dean is caught up in the turmoil of Amara, the emblem of absence and avoidance of struggle. We do get something like an affirmation from the two of them to each other via Dean calling Cas his brother (and I want y’all to consider the historical queering of that statement, and Cas’s “I could go with you.” It feels like we’re headed to them being on the same page. By the end of the season, though, it feels like we’re getting a clean slate: Mary is back, nobody died, no end-of-the-world in sight, no interpersonal crisis. We’re also getting a new showrunner, so. No wonder. We’re gearing up for something, but I’m getting ahead of myself. What this season does that is super important is that it sets up the stage for the possibility of an actual relationship between Dean and Cas, something that has, up until this point, been pretty much impossible.

11.04 Baby

Y’all know what I’m about to quote here, right? That conversation between Dean and Sam about having something with someone who understands the life. Here we still have Dean reverting to the idea that it’s impossible, which is a direct contrast to the openness in 10.16. It’s understandable, though, considering there’s been little reason to think anything like that would be possible (see all the mess and poor timing from seasons past). The quote in question, though, marks a continuing development regarding the issues Dean is struggling with this season:

DEAN: Piper? That’s awesome. Heather. One-night wonders, man. Shoot, we’re lucky we still get that at all. SAM: Really? You don’t … Ever want something more? DEAN: I’m sorry, have you met us? We’re batting a whopping zero in domestic life, man. Goose eggs. SAM: You don’t ever think about something? Not marriage or whatever. But … Something? You know, with a hunter? Somebody who understands the life?

We wouldn’t be talking about this stuff all these years after Sam and Dean had a serious relationship if it wasn’t important, right? Also who else do we meet this season? That’s right! Eileen! And doesn’t that hit different with season 15 hindsight? And who does Dean have that understands the life? Whose stories have been intricately connected to his? Right now, this is all conjecture. A pipe dream Sam is revisiting, and Dean is skeptical about. Except, well. Look at what we get in “Into the Mystic” and “The Chitters.”

11.11 Into The Mystic

I’m bringing up this episode as a cross reference to “Paint It Black” as well as to complement the talk from “Baby,” and to show, again, that, for all the closeness between Dean and Cas, there’s still a marked distance they haven’t yet bridged. There’s still truths they haven’t told each other. Thanks Mildred for the delicious exposition:

Darlin’…If there’s one thing I’ve learned in all my years on the road, it’s when somebody’s pining for somebody else. […] Oh, don’t try and hide it now. Follow your heart. Remember?

11.19 The Chitters

And here we see some validation to Sam’s imagining of a possible future with someone else. We actually see hunters who not only are married, but they both make it out alive. Jesse and Cesar get their happy ending. They make the dream come true. And the reality of it important not just for Dean to see, but Sam too.

Dean: [with realization] Oh, so … [points back and forth to Jesse and Cesar] Cesar: Yeah. Dean: Okay, that’s… Cesar puts his beer bottle on the table and looks at Dean, while Jesse is being silent. Dean: What’s it like, settling down with a hunter? Cesar: Smelly, dirty. [turns to Jesse] Twice the worrying about getting ganked.

I’d like to point out, too, that the fear of getting ganked is thematic when it comes to the tension between Dean and Cas. More on this when we hit s13.

Alright, now, having said that, let’s take a look at season 12. Bear in mind, this is the official start of Dabb’s era, even if he kinda began taking over in season 11, and the change in vibes is obvious. In fact, 12 jumped out at me as a turning point, in hindsight, after getting smacked by the domesticity of seasons 13 and 14.

II. Why Season 12

[Out of date section. Update coming soon when spoons. After significant debate, I’ve altered the definitive start of Dean and Cas’s friend-with-benefits-with-mutual-pining relationship to between 12.02 and 12.03. I briefly explained why here, and yes it’s a shitpost--still true tho.]

Finally, the promise land, y’all. Getting right to it: what s11 was for Dean in terms of setting up the relationship stage, s12 was for Cas. In its initial beats, any way. That is, until the Kelly debacle, this was the longest Cas has been around the bunker and with the exception of seasons 13 and 14, it’s one of the first times we get to see how Cas might actually fit into the bunker-as-home. Things seem remarkably chill. Of course, we’ll notice that there’s still a lot of baggage hanging around because despite Dean and Cas being in a more stable place, they haven’t actually dealt with their interpersonal problems. I didn’t single out directly this episode, but do keep in mind Cas’s declaration in 12.09 First Blood as far as how much the Winchesters matter to Cas & how we also see Dean and Cas be particularly singled out with them seating together in the backseat of the Impala. What we also see this season is Cas trying to prove he is worthy of this family, his family. He’s not fighting for heaven or to right some grievous wrong (a la s8). No, this season he’s fighting to spare the Winchester, to bring them a win. To bring Dean a win. The major disconnect is that Dean (and Sam & Mary) already sees Cas that way, he doesn’t think Cas has anything to prove. And just maybe, Cas starts believing that too – or, at least, believing it enough.

12.10 Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets

This episode, oh my god, the goodness. In the wake of 12.09 we have Dean and Cas in a tiff because Cas mistake #3 (killing Billie and “cosmic consequences”), this is a pattern. Twice the worry of getting ganked, etc etc. But where this episode really shines is through the contrast between Ishim’s obsession with Lily and Cas & Dean’s mutual affection for each other. Ishim sees no difference here and, to him, Cas’s feelings for Dean are a human weakness. Returning to my point about human!Cas, this episode underscores that Cas’s increasing humanity is what puts him in the place where he can want what Dean wants instead of either being too alien to get it (see s4 & 5) or unable to experience it properly (Ishim).

12.12 Stuck in the Middle (With You)

Cas’s trajectory culminates here with the whole I love you (@ Dean), I love all of you (@ Winchesters). Let’s note too that Cas is dying here, in a way that is much more human than going up in light. This declaration of different types of love is entirely human. It’s also a definitive step wrt to Cas and Dean’s relationship because of what happens in 12.19. This. is. it. Oh, and, of course, let’s not forget to point to Dean’s face when Cas says that “I love you,” and how terrified he is that Cas is dying. Might make one rethink some things, hm?

12.19 The Future

This episode is simply hella suspicious, and all the kudos to Berens and Glynn for writing it. It’ll haunt me forever. Consider watching it again and just questioning everything. So. Weird things:

1. Dean’s reaction to Cas no getting in touch as opposed to Sam’s. Dean is pissed, which is Dean-speak for worried out of his mind. Sam is very worried, too, and puzzled, but he’s mostly expressing his relief that Cas is back. But Cas has gone awol before, but this time Dean is much more worked up about it; Sam takes note of this, too. Now, let’s imagine that maybe the events of 12.12 led to something happening between Dean and Cas. Then Cas decided to leave to find a lead on Kelly, but eventually Cas decides to work with Heaven and goes radio silent. For days. Having taken a chance, and something having happened between them, how would Dean react to Cas just going poof and not contacting him – despite Dean having called Cas multiple times.

2. Cas knows about the Colt. Ok, nothing off there. But when he goes to Dean’s room to talk, right after Dean leaves we see Cas looking around briefly. Like he know Dean would keep it in there. Maybe Cas had looked other places already. Who knows. What we do know is that eventually he does find the Colt not only in Dean’s room, but under Dean’s pillow. Sam didn’t even know the Colt wasn’t in the safe. So how did Cas know?

3.“He came into my room and he played me.” So, this quote right there, makes it seem like some seduction for personal gain, right? But can you see Cas actually doing that if they hadn’t gone there previously? For Dean not to suspect anything and go with it? There’s plenty of plausible deniability here, but the gaps in time in the narrative make me question what is there in those spaces. The scene where Cas tried to give Dean the mixtape back doesn’t read like “playing,” so it’s about a different interaction. Hm. Hmmm.

4. Dean and Cas’s brief conversation in Dean’s room is clearly Dean just wanting Cas to stay, so they can work (and be) together – because they’re better that way. Which, yeah, truth, but also ow.

5.And most importantly: When did Dean give Cas that mixtape??? How did that happen?

Sequence of events: Cas tells Dean he loves him – Dean is clearly shook by it – Dean gives Cas a mixtape (romantic gesture, often a declaration of feelings; in true Dean speak too lolsobs) – Cas goes awol - Dean acts like he got ghosted by his new bf -?????- Cas somehow knows the Colt is under Dean’s pillow – "He went into my room and he played me."

What am I supposed to do with that, hm? Like. Y’all realize they probably had some emotionally constipated getting together moment, right? Something that Dean clearly initially thought meant things were gonna change, now. Something that Cas couldn’t allow to happen until he could give Dean a win. Y’all are seeing this, yeah? I’m not saying they slept together and were full of feelings, except that’s kind of what I’m saying. But YMMV, there are other possibilities beyond sex. The full of feelings isn’t up for debate, though, even if the whole thing is informed by ridiculous amounts of miscommunication.

III. Seasons 13 through 15 As Established Relationship

Regardless of what happened in season 12, exactly, I can’t shake the feeling that something did happen, and something did change. My reasoning here is actually really simple: in comparison to previous seasons, Dean and Cas’s dynamic shifts significantly come season 13. I know some folks have been disappointed with some of season 13 and then season 14 for having dialed back on the destiel side of things. And, hey, maybe there’s truth to that in terms of backstage stuff, but I also want to point out that...well, the dialing back isn’t quite dialing back is it? Let’s look at 13 a little more closely:

Season 13:

So I said the deancas dynamic changed, right? I also think that change caught us unaware because the pivotal turning point that would cue us in never happened on screen as well as being subsumed by Cas’s death and Jack’s birth. But if I ask you about deancas in season 13 what would come to mind? Grief arc? Brokebacknatural? How domestic Dean and Cas are? There’s just something easy about their relationship after Cas returns from the Empty. The tension we’d grown so familiar with over the years is gone. Actually, it feels like we skipped the getting together bit of their relationship and went straight to established relationship and parenting. Some of the most peak married deancas moments we see circulating? Season 13, (and 12.10). It’s a lot, and it’s different, and it’s amazing.

13.01-13.05

Dean’s grief mini-arc. He was acting like a widower. Here’s me vaguely gesturing towards the mapping of Jonh, Mary, Dean, and Sam onto Dean, Cas, Sam, and Jack. And the reunion? I can’t help but be giddy at the song choice: “it’s never too late to start all over again.” To. Start. All. Over. Again. I’m just saying.

13.06 Tombstone & 13.16 Scoobynatural

I’m not going at length about these episodes, I just want to point out that they reveal that Dean and Cas have a whole thing going on off screen: they watch movies together, Cas knows about Dean being an angry sleeper, Cas seems to have been aware of the Dean-cave before Sam was. It’s little things like this that are examples of the narrative gaps surrounding Dean and Cas that have cropped up over the years. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to wonder what else could be hiding there. And when did the movie nights alluded in “Tombstone” happen? Maybe in season 12 when Cas in hanging around the bunker? The same period when Dean and Cas seem to be coalescing into something safer and more stable? Something that we never see come to a head because plot happens and Cas dies? Something that is immediately taken back up once Cas is alive again?

Season 14:

Overall, this season is more of what we got during 13, but it had two high notes I wanted to single out before ending this already too long post.

14.15 Peace of Mind

Look me in the eye and tell me Dean and Cas talking in the kitchen about Jack doesn’t read like husbands talking about their child. Look me in the eye and tell me Cas just texting Dean to gossip about Sam isn’t couple-y as hell.

14.18-14.20

Ah, yes, the divorce arc. Awful. Terrible. The culmination of Dean’s problem in all this: he lashes out, he pushes Cas away, his anger is alienating. Cue all of us suffering. But while Dean is clearly in the wrong in how the deals with his feelings, let’s not pretend some of his anger doesn’t come from a long established, and unaddressed, rift between him and Cas, which had its last traumatic turn when Cas died in s12. Dean isn’t being rational here: he saw Cas doing something on his own, and he saw that his mother is dead. What else could happen? Why won’t Cas just trust they can work as a team? What if Cas died again? And why should Cas put up with Dean’s behavior without knowing the cause? How can any relationship work this way? But notice how caught in the middle Sam was during all this. Notice how Jack is running off and acting out. The whole family is falling apart. Divorce arc, indeed.

Season 15:

But what about what we’re building up in 15? That seems like it could be a getting together plot, too, right? Well, yeah. It could very well be. But I’d argue the tension we’re seeing isn’t a will-they-or-won’t-they because they already have. We’re are watching a getting back together plot! The tension is, instead, will-they-or -won’t-they use their words to talk about the baggage that has kept them from truly being confident about their relationship. That’s the crucial step in their togetherness that they’re still missing, which is also the bedrock of the divorce arc that spanned twelve fucking episodes -- y’all, that’s half a season.

And technically? We’re not even done with yet because Cas never let Dean finish his prayer/confession in purgatory. What’s more, Cas hasn’t grappled with his role in the breakdown of their relationship, either: that he keeps going off on his own and getting hurt (and getting other people hurt), and Dean has to deal with the fallout. The deep emotional understanding, the truly being on the same page is what we’re on the edge of our seats for. We’re waiting to see what else Dean had to say, and what will happen when Cas’s deal with the Empty comes to light.

Finally, could we still have this plot without Dean and Cas having gotten together off screen? Sure, but I think the stakes are higher if they already did have something between them. If they actually have an established romantic relationship going on. Something real and tangible and as of yet much too fragile.

"...you asked what about all this is real. We are."

#destiel #deancas #supernatural #spn #spn meta #this thing is gargantuan yikes #anyway enjoy? let's chat #my writing #this thing is half meta half my adhd unleashed

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wif-san · 1 year ago

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She doesn’t go looking for posts to bash, y’all stick your posts in the Supernatural tag (and/or Sam and/or Dean tags), making it fair game for EVERYONE in the Spn fandom as those are general tags.

We don’t deny any characters their sexuality, that’s y’all, ignoring blatant statements made in canon and by everyone who actually has a say in the character of Dean Winchester. Also ignoring that there’s no good reason for Dean not to just fuck guys if he actually wanted to fuck guys: John’s been dead since the season 2 premiere, Dean’s certainly hedonistic enough, and he’s had multiple, MULTIPLE catalysts if he needed that extra push. Also, as far as the CW goes, as a network, they have no control over what happens in the shows they air, they only get to set the ground rules on what level of visual and verbal graphic-ness they air on their network, and even IF the CW had control of what happened in the shows they broadcast (again, they don’t), the CW has been one of the, if not THE MOST queer-friendly network on TV, as documented by GLADD. In addition, if either main character had actual canon queer-coding, it was Sam.

It’s not necessary, nor an actual requirement for a character’s canon sexuality to be compliant with your ship in order to ship it.

Firstly, it’s tagged so anyone who wants to can avoid it, and secondly, it’s not about an opposing ship, it’s about certain d3stiel shippers acting like flaming bags of shit over a fictional TV show (as opposed to normal d3stiel fans who just do their thing in their corner and are the reason why Nancy and others of us have a “most destiel fans are cool” type tag)

Firstly, if you’re going to be doing the equivalent of looking at a story about vampires and then CLAIMING that the story IS ABOUT mermaids (particularly when there isn’t a mermaid in sight), yeah normal people are going to look at you like you’re delusional, and they’re going to make comments about it too(as opposed to just a personal reading of canon, which people are generally happy to ignore if the reading doesn’t suit their tastes). Secondly, if (most) everything you claim to like isn’t canon, and (most) everything you claim to dislike is canon, and you either pointedly ignore or disregard the main theme of the entire show, of course people are going to at least question whether you are actually a fan of the actual show/canon (and rightfully so). Thirdly, when so many of you proudly proclaim to have either skipped seasons 1-3 or every episode without Castiel in it, on top of proclaiming characters to be something they are very clearly demonstrably not, people are going to rightfully question just how much you actually know about the characters/show.

D3stiel has ZERO basis in canon beyond friendship (and even that’s generous post season 6), and was unrequited at best, as although you can READ Castiel’s confession as romantic, factually it was ambiguous AF (I love you vs I’m IN love WITH you).

Dean had MORE THAN ENOUGH time to process Castiel’s confession, between the years he spent domestically living with Sam and who knows how much time in heaven, Dean could have absolutely made some sort of statement (I.e. asking Bobby about Castiel casually after Bobby mentioned him helping Jack with the new heaven), even without being too obvious, and yet he effectively shrugged Castiel off after Chuck was defeated.

The show was never ABOUT found family, yes it included some found family members, but they were never the point as Sam and Dean would absolutely sacrifice any of their found family, and any of their blood family for that matter (parents included) to save each other (I.e. Dean tossing Castiel out and sacrificing him to save Sam when Ezekiel/Gadreel threatened to let Sam die otherwise), in other words, although they care about those that are family to them, Sam and Dean were, are, and always will be paramount to each other, as in their own words there’s “family” and then there’s “each other”, also “you and me against the world”.

#destiehellers #it will forever suck to be them #no really what show are they watching?

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twelvedaysinaugust · 3 years ago

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I'm not sure if you follow the supernatural fandom but one of their stars, Misha Collins, accidentally insinuated he was bi at a fan convention over the weekend and then later had to tweet to clarify that he is in fact straight. And I mean there's a whole drama about that and a lot of the people in that fandom ship him with his male costar Jensen Ackles. It's called "cockles" and it's quite famous in that world. And Misha has a poetry book where he wrote about the time he kissed a guy and honestly before he "came out", a lot of us were pretty sure he was bi. Sorry for the huge rant. He was also married to his wife for a long time until a couple of years ago.

But anyway my main point, I got to thinking about how wrong I was about perceiving his sexuality even with "proof" like that poem or certain stories of the past where he alluded to being attracted to men. And obviously sexuality is fluid and can mean whatever the person wants but he did "come out" as straight yesterday and I kind of had to sit back and say to myself "what if I'm wrong about Louis too"

And quite frankly I'm a little conflicted right now because on one hand, I'm suddenly starting to think of how invalidating it might be to constantly call someone queer if they aren't but at the same time I have to think about why I feel that way you know? I mean even if we ignore all past evidence and Louis' intimate knowledge of queer history and certain choices he's made in the past, I keep coming back to these last few months. Particularly, the colorized pride flags. I feel like out of everything, that was the moment that I keep coming to whenever I feel myself wavering these days. That was a very deliberate choice that was meant to stand out. And outside the baiting theory, which I very much don't agree with, I'm not sure what the purpose of that if it wasn't queer coding?

Idk I'm just concerned sometimes that I might be reading things wrong because I've seen Misha's tweet where he said he was straight and I went back to Louis' tweet where he said he was straight and I just can never understand why I believed Misha but it's taking me so long to see that Louis is probably straight and this whole thing was just one big conspiracy that's gone on for too long.

I'm sorry for the long ask. I just feel like it's important to look outside our own perspectives sometimes, especially when it's about something as important as closeting and "pushing" a sexuality on to a public figure.

I'm familiar with Supernatural, Destiel, Cockles, and the situation that unfolded over the weekend. The questions you're asking resonate with me, 100%. I don't really have any answers, but I'll share some similar questions I have, even if they might be unpopular.

I'm always concerned that I'm reading Louis incorrectly. I understand why his fanbase believes as they do. But if Louis felt the need to deny the rainbow Apple t-shirt's (potential) LGBTQ+ connection, he could have merely said he was representing the original Apple logo and left it at that. No one was expecting him to "come out" as straight or define his sexuality - nor was the article suggesting that he was anything more than an ally. Unlike Harry, Louis has labeled himself as straight. Even if he's not, it still feels unethical for fans (myself included) to speculate or claim that he's queer. People are what they say they are.

Regardless of what is going on with Larry right now, you could never convince me that Larry wasn't real in some capacity, for some period of time. But Louis always denied Larry heavily when Harry did not. I know this is taboo to say, but sometimes I wonder if Louis didn't reciprocate Harry's feelings to the same degree. It makes me wonder if Harry was more of an exception and Louis does see himself as a straight man.

But then, why does Louis seem to know so much about queer culture and history? Why does his music resonate with so many queer fans? Even if he was questioning his sexuality for a period of time, why is he making a lot of not-so-straight choices on tour? Interacting with the Larry signs and paraphernalia, yes. But colorizing the flags in the IGTV video? Given what his fanbase believes?

What about female hookup stories? Why are there so many stories about Louis turning down female advances? Because he was being faithful (to Eleanor or Harry, take your pick)? Because he’s not into women at all? Possibly. But he had a child with a girl on the LA club scene. We saw pictures of him getting into cars with women (but whether he actually slept with them is another matter). And people will deny this, but Louis made out with Briana - very publicly - while they were clubbing. But even during spring 2015, why did the groupies (who knew of Briana but did not think highly of her) doubt that Louis got her pregnant (iirc)? Why did they never mention Louis as someone who would sleep with groupies and said that if a girl claimed to have slept with Harry you knew she was lying? I find all of this very hard to make sense of from either a Larrie or an Anti perspective.

Certainly, bisexuality and pansexuality are very real. But why are there virtually no male hookup stories? (Maybe Aiden Grimshaw during X-Factor? Maybe?) Because Louis has been in a monogamous relationship with Harry for the last 12 years? Possibly. I know that's what most Larries believe. Perhaps Louis is especially discreet. I think that's a possibility, too. I have no desire to know the specifics - it's none of my business. I don’t discount the possibility of Louis having a male partner who is not Harry. That’s what I presumed for a long time, even though there’s very little direct evidence for it. But the way Louis is interacting with Larry signs on tour is making me rethink that.

I will never understand. And the thought of being so wrong - for so long - feels almost unbearable. What would that mean for Louis, Eleanor, Briana, Freddie, and their families? (Honestly, what does it mean for Louis, Eleanor, Briana, Freddie, and their families even if we’re right?) And what would it mean for the queer fans who saw Louis as a kindred spirit? Honestly, when I think too much about it I feel nauseous. Neither angle makes complete sense. But I feel like there are very real consequences associated with being wrong about babygate, Larry, and Louis' queerness.

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