#the hypocrisy uncle and nephew

[haytsun]

How do you think the Gaang would react if Iroh was forced to face a tribunal for his actions during the war, particularly his actions during the Siege of Ba Sing Se?

gonna see who is handling the tribunal, if it was the gaang:

since canon showing like they have knew what iroh did, i think they would help iroh to defends because he had suffer and doing good things this and that, and he have zuko the best “son” the fire lord helping him, some thing like kuvira‘s ending, which saying the iroh redemption last piece is done

but for me i wish iroh suffer the hate from those family who lost their son from the bbs war to broke the hypocrisy-ego he had build form his son death, the gaang have no right saying anything to help iroh when those family speech the pain and hate, even zuko the fire lord cant help with that, because the people still not even happy the traitor being fire lord even the backstab fire nation for a good reason, and the rest of the gaang idk what to think, they might just stand up for zuko, bcuz people are to many, the rage they cant stop, what they can do is using their title to deter at the meantime, they deley iroh tribunal until they think something out, azula in the alyssum just laugh around what they have done

personally i wish the gaang be like iroh should paid what he have done, its not their right to help people forgive him, zuko being my uncle had done everything, he help restore the peace blahblabla, its gonna be a huge argue, because zuko knew if he not defends his uncle his own hypocrisy-ego also hard to handle being a “good” person

[themulitipurposechannel]

Mikey and Cj shenanigans! :D

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And one of the many things future!Mikey wanted to be able to show Case one day..

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

Blood Purity and the ASOIAF Fandom

I find it very ironic how Targaryen antis scream about "blood purity" then turn around and support and play into blood purity themselves. Specifically I'm talking about Stark stans and stansas/jonsas.

The Starks canonically prefer to marry with Northern houses, in other words: other First Men. This tradition gives them a rather small gene pool, meaning that incest is pretty much a necessity for them to carry it on. Uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, and cousin weddings were all allowable, and cousin weddings were rather commonplace.

What all that means is that the Starks practice blood purity. Yes, it's different from how the Targaryens did it, but the only differences are that the Valyrians allowed brother-sister marriages and there are only two other Valyrian houses to marry. The Celtigars barely even count, due to how little Valyrian blood is left in them. Both the Starks and Targaryens did marry outside their preferred gene pools. However, that fact doesn't negate that they both practice blood purity.

Stark stans who condemn the Targaryens for marrying to preserve their Valyrian blood are hypocrites. The Starks prefer to marry other First Men and allow certain forms of close incest, if they had as few options as the Targaryens did, they would probably change their views on brother-sister marriages.

Stansas tend to follow the same patterns as Stark stans. They ignore Stark incest and talk about "super special Stark genes" in an almost cult-like fashion. Stansas will go on and on about how the Starks are very special and their (specifically Sansa's) blood is the key to saving the world. Now, there is magic blood in ASOIAF, and the Starks are the one of the families with this. However, the sheer hypocrisy of Stansas and Stark stans to embrace and cheer on this fact for the Starks while simultaneously despising the Targaryens for the same fact is interesting.

Jonsas, who are all stansas just to be clear, are probably the most hypocritical in this group. Jonsa shippers will espouse both anti-incest and anti-blood purity arguments, especially in regards to the Targaryens. However, at the same time, they will write posts about how the incest between Jon and Sansa wouldn't be wrong and how Stark blood is superior. Just like the Stark stans and stansas, they are unironically supporting Stark blood purity. All three of these groups will also write about how the Targaryen bloodline needs to be wiped out.

So basically: Stark stans, stansas, and jonsas all not only support Stark blood purity, but also the eradication of Valyrian blood in Westeros. The hypocrisy is riveting.

[targayrenss]

A Dance With Dragons (III) -Daemon Targaryen

pairing: Daemon Targaryen × Velaryon Oc

Content: Incest, Age-Gap,Angst

Author's Note: I haven't updated here in a while, this is my Christmas gift as an apology.

remember that English is not my first language

•••

When they entered the throne room all eyes fell on them.

Jocelyn and Daemon stood next to Rhaenys and Baela, the latter looking at them with anger while Rhaenys was happy to see his only legitimate granddaughter.

Jocelyn looked for her brothers and smiled at them to reassure them, especially Jacaerys since it was her legitimacy that would be questioned the most.

She was close to vomiting when she saw Otto Hightower so comfortable on her grandfather's throne.

Jocelyn was getting bored of her uncle playing the victim before the queen and her hand, listening to how she spoke badly about her mother and her brothers.

—Their children are bastards! My only legitimate nephew is Princess Jocelyn—Vaemond pointed to his brothers.

—And she—now they are addressing her mother—is a whore.

Gasps were heard throughout the room.

The king was going to remove Vaemond's tongue when Jocelyn ordered her husband to murder him.

—He can keep his tongue —Jocelyn approached her brothers.

—My daughter has one more announcement

The king's words puzzled everyone.

Rhaenyra walked to the center, ignoring the corpse of Vaemond Velaryon.

—He considered that my son Jacaerys is not suitable to rule Driftmark, my son Lucerys will do it better—Rhaenyra paused, staring into the eyes of her only daughter—That is why he wished to name my son, Jacaerys Velaryon as my successor.

Jocelyn felt her blood run cold, everyone began to whisper.

Alicent Hightower saw her with pity from her place next to her children.

Jocelyn stormed out with Daemon following her, she just asked her husband to murder her uncle for her and that's how he repaid her.

When they got to their rooms he was finally able to take everything out.

—How dare you? You are his heir, the only legitimate one among those bastards.

—She always knew, that I would not inherit the throne—tears of anger fell from her eyes—she always missed me for not being Harwin Strong's daughter, she now confirmed it before everyone!

—Everyone there knows who their legitimate heir is.

"She can't take my throne away from me." Jocelyn felt a pain in her stomach.

She moaned as she grabbed her belly.

"It's better not to think about that right now, my love." Daemon caressed her belly.

Jocelyn nodded knowing that she could put her son at risk.

•••

Both Jocelyn and Daemon wanted to skip dinner, but Viserys had insisted on everyone being together.

Jocelyn was sitting next to Aemond, next to her was Daemon.

Aemond seemed quite calm in her place, perhaps he didn't have a grudge towards her like he did towards her brothers.

Daemon continued to ignore her brother's children with Alicent Hightower, her husband couldn't stand the queen, much less his father.

Jocelyn and Daemon whispered to each other while Rhaenyra had her eyes on them.

Everyone stood up as the king entered and was placed between Alicent and Rhaenyra.

—How good it is to see you all tonight, together.

His grandfather looked like a corpse, he could swear that he had gotten worse in the few hours that had passed.

She felt the eternal dinner, she began to feel overwhelmed by the hypocrisy of the queen and her mother, toasting each other as if her stupid war had not ruined the entire family.

—I wanted to toast my son Jacerys—Rhaenyra looked at her for a few seconds before focusing on Jace—you will be a good king, as the conqueror once was.

Jocelyn felt the blow on her chest, she had earned the hatred of her mother without knowing the reason.

Viserys was the only one who raised her glass, not even Harwin supported his wife.

Aemond watched as her niece caressed her swollen stomach as she silently complained.

The prince stood up with his cup in hand—A final tribute, for the health of my nephews.

Alicent stared into her eyes, trying to warn her not to do anything foolish.

—Jace, Luke, and Joffrey, all of them attractive and strong like their father

Daemon laughed, hearing his uncle's approval he couldn't stop.

—Let's empty our glasses for these three strong young men.

"I dare you to say it again."

—Why? It was just a compliment, don't you consider yourself strong?

Aemond and Jacaerys began to fight, the silver-haired prince obviously having the upper hand.

No matter how angry he was, he wasn't going to let his brother get hurt—Daemon, do something!

How a good obedient husband approached them, helping Harwin Strong separate them.

The king began to cough heavily, being taken by his guards to be examined by the maesters.

Jocelyn left after the king, she was no longer in the mood for dinner.

—Jocelyn! Wait for me! — She turned around finding Luke.

"What's wrong, Luke?"

—Are you mad at me and Jace?

Jocelyn smiled tenderly. “No, sweet brother, she would never be angry with you.”

—But if you are with mother

Jocelyn was going to answer her truthfully but she didn't want to worry her brother like that.

—No, Luke, I'm not mad at anyone, maybe Uncle Vaemond but I don't think that matters right now.

Luke smiled. “Rest sister.”

Jocelyn wished her goodnight and went straight to her room.

Later, she was reading while she waited for her husband, the children were already asleep in the nursery.

The door opened revealing her mother.

-Jocelyn

—Mother, what are you doing here?

—Tomorrow morning we will return to Dragonstone, I wanted to say goodbye

—Why? You had so many years to name Jacaerys your heir, why now?

-Jocelyn…

-Answer!

—I never named you my heir!

"It's my birthright!" Jocelyn felt her tears sting her eyes. "I'm your firstborn."

Rhaenyra cried without knowing what to answer.

—Why do you do to me what the Hightowers want to do to you? Is it because I am not Harwin Strong's daughter?

—Your words are considered betrayal, daughter.

—Your actions are too, mother

Both women saw each other with tears streaming down their cheeks, Jocelyn Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen declaring war on each other.

[raspberry-arev]

Eighth House genetically engineered uncle/nephew duo! Silas was really just. Like that, huh. The self-importance, the hypocrisy, the inability to self reflect, the the the AUDACITY of this lily-white bitch! he is iconic tho. anyway, I'm super close to completing the set of portraits for all the houses in book 1!! Guess who's coming next hehehe

[francesminos-tt]

about toxic! joffron;

can we have a moment between lucemond x jacegon x joffron? + a joff+daeron moment with his nephews and them talking (maybe) about children?

There were certain facts about Joffrey that Daeron came to know after their marriage. One, Joffrey was an insufferable brat who liked to bite his bedmate. Two, Joffrey was a lazy ass who could spend a whole day in bed. Three, Joffrey was a fierce defender of his family and loved his Velaryon brothers with all his heart.

Daeron crossed his arms as he leaned against the cold stone wall and observed Joffrey interacting with his brothers. Joffrey was wrestling with his alpha brother Jacaerys, while his omega brother Lucerys acted as judge, accompanied by a jury of two boys, one brunette and one blonde. The sun was high in the sky, the air dry enough to set Daeron’s throat on fire, but the Velaryons paid no mind to the scorching sun and hot weather. They laughed loud, especially Joffrey, who seemed to enjoy the company of his brothers very much. It was odd, to some extent, to see Joffrey tackle someone to the ground without menace. The wrestling match went on, and finally Jacaerys came out as the winner by straddling Joffrey and tickling him. Joffrey actually giggled and put his arms up in surrender.

Daeron couldn’t help but feel a surge jealousy rising from his stomach. In Daeron’s opinion, all emotions came from the stomach. The subtle pain when he was upset, the butterflies when he was excited, the nausea when he was anxious, and the sudden clench when he was jealous.

Jacaerys offered a hand to Joffrey and they both got up from the dirty ground. They went back under the tree shades where Lucerys had laid out a small picnic blanket. It wasn’t proper royal behavior to have snacks on the ground, but none of the brothers cared.

Joffrey accepted a piece of cake from Lucerys and popped it into his mouth. Daeron had no idea Joffrey even ate cakes. They seldom ate together, and in the rare occasions they did share a meal, it always ended in curses and sex. Daeron remembered one time that he nearly drowned Joffrey in wine by pushing his husband’s head into a wine barrel because Joffrey insisted on letting that handsome bard perform for them. Daeron hated the man and the seductive glances he threw at Joffrey. After putting on a nasty show of nearly drowning his husband in wine, Daeron had to kill the bard to preserve the image of the King. Joffrey laughed at Daeron’s hypocrisy with wine dripping from his dark curls.

“They are adorable together, aren't they?” Someone came next to Daeron, a man in a red robe with a small toddler clinging to his side and another baby in his arms, “You might think a married alpha will stop being so childish, but alas.”

“I don’t think anything.” Daeron replied, not impressed by Aegon’s sudden appearance. He didn't turn his head to properly greet his brother, partly because he didn't want to deal with his nephew. Seven forbid. Daeron hated children.

“I am sure you are mesmerized by your carefree husband.” Aegon said, amusement in his tone, “Because if you are looking at my husband with these love-sick puppy eyes, I might have to intervene.”

“Do you think father is a good fighter, uncle Daeron?” The toddler spoke, as if in cue with his mother, his voice clear and crisp like a bell.

“It’s not about what I think.” Daeron replied in the gentlest tone he could manage, “It’s about you, Jaehaerys. If you consider your father to be a good fighter, a good fighter he is.”

Daeron’s words were a bit too rhetorical to a toddler, but the boy clapped his hands and replied in an excited tone nonetheless.

“I think he is! Father said that I would be a good fighter too!”

Childish, Daeron thought. But then again, could a child be accused of being childish?

“You have been watching them for quite a long time, brother.” Aegon rocked the baby in his arms gently, cooing and kissing the baby’s round nose, “Why don't you join them?”

Daeron could think of a least a dozen excuses for why he hadn't joined his nephews, but all words died down in front of Aegon’s knowing smile. Since when did Aegon become so smart? Daeron decided that he liked Aegon more when his brother was a pathetic drunk head.

Daeron hadn't joined the Velaryons because he didn't know how to act around Joffrey who seemed to have no intention of biting his cock off.

Daeron might be an awkward man who didn't know how to handle his husband, but clearly Aemond was not. The one-eyed prince walked briskly past Daeron and Aegon straight towards the three brunette brothers, without sparing them a single glance. Aemond greeted Lucerys by kissing his husband’s hand, earning a string of giggle from Lucerys and two eye-rolls from the omega’s brothers. It was strange to see Aemond showing affection in public, not to mention such affection was for the boy he was supposed to hate. Daeron felt somewhat betrayed, really, for he seemed to be the only one who had truly hated Rhaenyra’s sons.

Jacaerys waved at them, and Aegon gladly waved back. They acted like a pair of silly lovers, which irritated Daeron to no end.

“If you will excuse me, brother, I need to join my husband in his merry ways.”

Aegon walked to the picnic blankets as well and sat down next to Jacaerys. Jacaerys pecked him on the lips before bending down to kiss their infant daughter. The two married couples soon enveloped themselves into two loving bubbles, leaving Joffrey alone with Jacaerys and Aegon’s boy Jaehaerys. Joffrey looked briefly in Daeron’s direction, their eyes catching each other for a split second before Joffrey looked down again and started talking to an overexcited Jaehaerys.

Even though their eyes only met for a second, Daeron was sure he had caught the challenge in Joffrey’s eyes. Join me if you dare.

Daeron wasted no time walking into the shades and threw himself on the fluffy blanket next to Joffrey. Joffrey smiled triumphantly, his lips curling up so nicely that Daeron wanted to rip the smile off his face.

“Look who finally decided to join us.” Joffrey said dramatically, “Us peasants not entertaining enough for a prince like you, husband?”

“Careful,” Daeron retorted smoothly, “you have included my brothers in your peasants claim.”

Joffrey laughed as he threw a handful of walnuts at Daeron playfully. Perhaps it was the steaming weather, or the suffocating love in the air that made Joffrey choose nuts as ammunitions instead of actual daggers.

“Stop wasting food, Joff.” Jacaerys scolded absently.

“Jace is right. It’s bad influence.” Lucerys said from where he was lying on top of Aemond, “Cover your eyes, boys.”

“It’s too late, Luke. I have already poisoned your sons.” Joffrey laughed as he reached out to snatch a small walnut off Daeron’s crotch and throw it into his mouth.

Daeron had never heard Joffrey laugh so openly and kindly. He had never been in the receiving end of Joffrey’s playfulness. The feeling was new and strange, but Daeron found himself intrigued by it.

Joffrey was good with children, unlike Daeron. He was patient enough to play the silly game of hide and seek with three toddlers while the children’s parents were exchanging little kisses and confessions of love. The air was filled the sweet milk scent of the children and the subtle herbal freshness of Joffrey, a bizarre but delicate balance. In the hot summer sun, surrounded by his deep-in-love brothers and their respective husbands, watching Joffrey chasing around small children, Daeron allowed himself to admit that he was, indeed, mesmerized by Joffrey.

Later that night, when they were back in the privacy of their room, their limbs tangled together like messy threads, Daeron asked if Joffrey ever wanted children.

“I can knot you to Old Valyria and back.” Daeron said, grabbing Joffrey’s hip hard enough to leave a nasty bruise.

“Don't get ahead of yourself, uncle.” Joffrey panted, his eyes cloudy with lust, “Your knot won't cure my infertility.”

“You never know.” Daeron bent down, his teeth inches away from Joffrey’s throat.

“But I do know.” Joffrey launched his attack first by wrapping his legs around Daeron’s waist and used the flexibility and strength of his core to flip them around. Now he was the one in charge of their sex session.

“Because it was me who made sure that I could never bear your filthy Hightower child.”

[burningdreambanana]

Playing the Part: Uniforms, mirrors, and heirs - An analysis of Fabrizio and Tancredi’s relationship in the Leopard (1963) Part IV

This entry will be much shorter than the last, especially as the next one promises to be quite substantial.

Tancredi returns on a rainy day, accompanied by his friend Cavriaghi. Fabrizio is visibly delighted to see him. It is only once the initial excitement wears off that he notices something: both young men are now wearing blue uniforms, not the red shirts of the Garibaldian volunteers. He looks puzzled, then amused: “I don’t understand, last time I saw you, you were as red as lobsters?”  Tancredi replies, seemingly caught off guard: “What do you mean, uncle?”, Fabrizio, with a rather ironic tone, then says: “If I believe my eyes, the Garibaldians no longer wear red?” Tancredi brushes it off: “Still Garibaldi, Garibaldians?”, as if his uncle was just out of the loop with the new tendencies. Fabrizio looks quite amused. Tancredi then goes on to say that they were once Garibaldians, but it’s enough now, and that he and Cavriaghi are now, thank god, officers in the king’s regular army. He explains that when Garibaldi’s army was dissolved, they were given a choice: either stay home or join the king’s army, and they decided to join the “real” army, and that they could not have remained with the “others” (those who remained loyal to Garibaldi). Cavriaghi, with Tancredi’s assent, then speaks of Garibaldians, which they once were but seem to have never been in this moment, with contempt, implying they’re little more than bandits. Tancredi goes on to boast about his new privileges and status, clearly pleased with himself.

This exchange is a perfect encapsulation of Tancredi’s opportunism, hypocrisy, lack of morals, and adaptability. He got what he wanted from Garibaldi (not being swept up by the revolution, heroic credentials…) and then discarded this allegiance without a second thought when it no longer served him. It’s quite fascinating how seamless the switch is. If his uncle is the Leopard, perhaps Tancredi is the Chameleon. As Fabrizio said, he is a “man of his time”, following wherever the wind blows and changing allegiances as easily as costumes in a play, always ready to assume a new role. Though I do think there’s an argument to be made about Tancredi’s support for the monarchy ringing more true to his character than his Garibaldian phase, as I said in another analysis, so this could be interpreted as just him "going back to normal". Tancredi might have enjoyed the adventure, but in the end, he values money, prestige, and status more. 

Fabrizio, at least in this moment, seems supportive of this attitude, more amused than anything else. This illustrates his lack of illusion about the true character of his nephew: he sees him clearly for the amoral opportunist he is, and accepts it, finds it fitting even. It also serves as a contrast to the romantic elegy about Tancredi’s “finesse” and “distinction” he gave earlier in the movie: his vision of his nephew also comes in double, and both are reflections of different sides of Fabrizio. It also, once again, speaks to his own cynical outlook on life, which I really believe he taught his nephew. 

A bit later in the scene, they share a brief moment of complicity where they both examine the ring Tancredi bought for Angelica, and Fabrizio asks him if it was expensive, as it was his money after all. Tancredi reassures him and confesses that he didn’t spend all the money on the ring, and Fabrizio guesses that Tancredi spent the rest on a “goodbye gift” which, considering the tone and the laugh they share after, I believe meant a visit to a prostitute. And we saw at the beginning of the movie that Fabrizio himself visited prostitutes. It’s a rather trivial thing, but yet another instance of mirroring between the two, a moment of male indulgence and shared vices, so I had to mention it. 

A bit later, in a different scene, there is another instance of mirroring. 

Cavriaghi is lamenting that Concetta doesn’t love him, and that he will give up on pursuing her. Tancredi says to him: “Perhaps, it’s for the best. Concetta is Sicilian to the bone, she never left the island, what would she do in Milan, where she’d have to wait a month if she wanted to eat macaroni?”

This takes us back to the scene where Fabrizio explains to Father Pirrone why Concetta wouldn’t make a good wife for Tancredi. It’s way less blunt and negative, and done more in a humorous tone, but the substance is similar: Concetta is immobilized, bound to the old world, to Sicily. For Tancredi, as for Fabrizio, she is incapable of embracing the new Italy (represented by northern Italy, where the House of Savoy comes from). The phrase “Sicilian to the bone” even echoes Fabrizio’s later lament about Sicilians being incapable of change. There are so many echoes in the discourses of both characters, reinforcing the double narrative and showcasing the similarities in their worldviews. 

Also, once he and Angelica are alone, Tancredi confesses that he thinks Concetta is crazy for not wanting to marry Cavriaghi: “he’s handsome, he has a title, lands, what more does she want?”. This illustrates a very pragmatic and materialistic (and superficial) view of marriage, where love doesn’t seem important, which is essentially the same vision as his uncle's. Fabrizio would defend Tancredi’s marriage to Angelica in similar terms (well, except for the title part). 

Finally, I end this analysis with a thought for Francesco Paolo, Fabrizio’s son, who gets told the shut up by his father when he tells an unsavory tale, something Fabrizio didn’t do when Tancredi did his gross rape joke at the dinner earlier in the movie and again when Tancredi tells another unsavory tale moments later Francesco Paolo’s. Not only is the favoritism real, it also once again illustrates how little regards Fabrizio seem to have for his own children, especially in comparison to his fixation on his spiritual son. They are ignored, in the background. Some could complain about them being almost glorified extras in the movie (especially in comparison to the tv series), but considering the movie is almost entirely told from Fabrizio’s perspective, this marginalization, to me, feels intentional and fitting. This is how he sees them (indeed, it’s interesting to note that it’s in one of the rare scenes that are not told through Fabrizio’s perspective that Concetta finally gets her moment to shine). To him, they are static figures, tepid, incapable of adapting, of carrying the legacy forward, and therefore useless in sustaining his illusion of permanence. They are not his doubles, and they do not stir his romantic imagination. As such, they are insignificant, and what little affection he may express for them, for Concetta for example, it's one that doesn't come without a certain contempt.

[nero-neptune]

@chaoticgremelin tldr- his hypocrisy, cowardice, and audacity (too many words under the cut)

it's really all down to framing. who does the show consider “good” or “bad”, “irredeemable” or not, and why. it’s a kid’s show, i get that, fine, but i still had an issue with this (albeit not as fleshed-out) as a kid. far more imperialists (banished or not) are allowed this abundance of nuance (the whole fire nation, really), but certain characters who are victims of the fire nation and respond to said imperialism “badly” are just Evil or Crazy or Bad, full stop. (actually, as i write this, i think i have a problem with how the show depicts the earth kingdom compared to the other nations, but that’s a different conversation and something i'd have to think more about. something annoys me about it tho, but that could just be a Me problem).

ig my biggest gripe with iroh is less to do with him as a character (i mean, it does apply to him as a character too) and more to do with the way he’s Constantly put on such high pedestal, considered this paradigm of wisdom, when he’s a coward (and not for the reason he’s called a coward in the show). also a hypocrite. to me. and God Forbid anyone talk negatively about him. i think “leaves from the vine” was flawless PR.

a lot of my dislike probably stems back to his “no, she’s crazy and she needs to go down” line about azula, which bothered me years ago back when i really and truly didn’t even like azula. younger me was like “that was kinda mean” lol. and, sure, you could see that as “she’s on the side of the enemy and we need to treat her that way for the time being” or whatever, but it’s not like he ever genuinely reaches out to her, uncle to niece, any other time. iirc, he never in-show refers to azula with the word “niece”, only uses such familial terms for his nephew. this 50something year old man essentially writes off this 14 year old girl as some unapproachable problem child so unlike his poor, sweet, misunderstood zuko. man's always got his blinders on when it comes to azula. and i think the way he judges her in general is Massively hypocritical bc they’re So Damn Similar, it’s downright ridiculous. like to the point it annoys me (and I could accept it as a simple character flaw– maybe he sees himself in her and it repulses him– if not for the way the show frames him as practically saintly, pretty much Always in the right, something they double down on in LoK). both iroh and azula were the favorites of their fathers, both notably more powerful than their sibling. they’re both Very eccentric in a way that others find strange. they’re both good at lying, both skilled strategists, both very ambitious (at least iroh was until his son died). idk what iroh’s personality was like in his younger years (outside of joking about burning ba sing se to the ground), but i imagine he was just as fiercely loyal to the fire nation as azula was in the show. i bet he was a ruthless asshole back in his heyday (i regularly see people talk about how iroh was more-or-less always a good guy inside (and ozai was always mostly bad), but we don’t know that lol, we Do know he thought war was funny which is sooo azula-like). people can bring up how kind of a mentor he is Now (only took him a handful of decades), but laying siege to ba sing se for Six Hundred Days for the Glory of the Fire Nation (and i’m sure there was a high number of pointless fire nation soldier casualties) is arguably more of an azula thing than a zuko thing (remember why zuko got his scar). hell, azula’s the one who finally did what iroh failed to. they’re so damn alike.

if there’s Anyone who could possibly understand the pressure of being the Golden Child, all the royal expectations (maybe even do anything to avoid being treated like the black sheep sibling), it’s iroh. but even in the crossroads of destiny (i know, i know, that episode was about zuko), there’s a moment where azula Very briefly addresses iroh, but iroh 1) doesn’t address azula and 2) is all like “remember how much your sister sucks”. fair enough azula can be the worst, but she’s 14. iroh’s all “redemption this” and “redemption that”, you’d think he’d direct a Smidgen of that energy towards azula, like, Once (if anyone can get through to her, you’d think it’d be the old man giving advice to damn near everybody, and that old man is a lot like her). but nooo. and maybe he’s going about it in a “i wouldn’t have been receptive to my words in her shoes”, but he doesn’t even Try. lazy as hell, compared to how he never stops trying to help zuko.

(i actually think i started caring about azula more the more i've started to dislike iroh. literally Nobody is in her corner, not even the jolly old uncle and she’s 14 wtf)

as for him being a coward: i get that he was sad about his son dying. “leaves from the vine”, and all that. he has every right to grieve. however. where is his sense of personal responsibility? he finally recognizes the war as something Bad (now that it actually hurt him), but not to the point he felt enough conviction to Actually try to end the war prior to “uncle, do you realize what this means!!” (and even then, idk, i'd argue not until season 2). like bro was Chilling, drinking tea, Dragging His Feet, getting “spiritual” and shit. taking time to become more worldly in a world his nation is doing so much damage to. the war is out of sight and, thus, out of mind. it’s not like he’s Fully part of the fire nation royal family or anything. and if he was That bothered by ozai stealing the throne out from under him, was trying to take the throne back (royal people Love usurping) Too unbecoming? compared to the War? i think in book 3, he tells zuko that he doesn’t think he’d win in a fight against ozai (doubt.jpg). this man was the Dragon of the West. and even if a number of people in the fire nation thought he was weak for abandoning the siege and deferred to whatever ozai claimed azulon said on his deathbed re: the line of succession, is the unbearable shame of bad PR (fratricide) worse than the war that took your son?

like, he could’ve tried to pick up the pace by offering to be aang’s firebending teacher much earlier on (the gaang warmed up to him Long before they warmed up to zuko). but he didn’t do that either. he’d rather pass that responsibility onto his traumatized teenage nephew bc *shrugs*. sorry, zuko, you’ve gotta fight your crazy sister. nah, i can’t fight my crazy brother tho bc it’d make me look bad and i’d Totally lose and looking bad is worse than doing the right thing.

@foolhearteyes oddly enough, i have less of an issue with all his murder and imperialism (ok that sounds bad lol. yes, i have a problem with that In General, but i'm taking it at the level of severity that the show places on it. which...varies. it's weird. some things are inexcusable and other, equally bad things, are brushed over. and i'm sure other people have gone into this in a better way than i can, but anyway). i have more of an issue that the show goes “war (and murder and imperialism etc) is Bad. the people who do these things, however complicated and grey they are, were Wrong. heck, Some People are plain evil no matter what! does this apply to iroh? uhhhhhh......iroh’s the best! we all love iroh! we, the narrative, will never challenge him on Anything”

basically, i’m not even “anti-iroh”, but he’s one of the most annoying examples of an “untouchable” character. anyone who criticizes him (or criticizes the way the show writes him) is wrong and a hater who doesn’t think people can change (that’s an argument i see a lot, that anyone who dislikes iroh dislikes (off-screen!) character development, apparently). when, no, i just think it should be okay to say he’s Not All That, and that actions have consequences. and the ba sing se tea shop is still pretty fucked up i think!

also, beyond his hypocrisy and cowardice is his Audacity. it’s canon that the rough rhinos served under general iroh (during his Dragon of the West Era) and, up until they tried to capture iroh and zuko, iroh still spoke highly of them (ignore the atrocities). and later iroh (and, lbr, most people in the atla fandom) sees no issue with him having his little tea shop in a city he laid siege to for almost 2 years. but God Forbid jet freaks the fuck out over it. and what Really burns my ass is that iroh calls jet “confused” (for being angry and right, mind you) bc jet, whether iroh knows the specifics or not (and, honestly, i doubt he could be bothered learning), lost his home and his parents to the same rough rhinos (in canon). the very same rough rhinos that iroh had been buddy-buddy with and still spoke highly of (iroh was still fully Dragoning in the West at this time). compare this to the episode where katara confronts the solider who killed her mother. he acts ashamed of his actions (in a very pathetic way), but even if he didn’t – the show validates her anger and pain, and the audience sees where she’s coming from. she isn’t shown to be foolish or confused. compare this to jet’s confrontation with zuko and iroh. he’s painted as paranoid and a problem, behavior that is Still seen as a joke today. sure, he doesn’t directly confront the actual rough rhinos. yeah, he’s being kind of a dick about it. but his fear and anger towards them is just him being ~~CrAzY~~ and in the wrong (and all he knew about them were that they were firebenders in a place that was meant to safe from the fire nation, i can’t imagine how he’d react if he knew that was the actual Dragon of the West and the Fire Nation Prince). and then the show punishes him for this by killing him on-screen.

which goes back to my problem with the show’s framing of characters. who’s allowed nuance and understanding and who gets punished for reacting to oppression “wrong”? nevermind the fact iroh attacked that very city for well over a year, is likely responsible for the deaths of Who Knows how many ba sing se citizens, nothing in canon goes “that’s kinda fucked up” to that whole situation (except for jet, but both canon and the fandom put him in the wrong). and i do think it’s fucked up. but iroh’s Such a Great Guy and makes Great Tea and gives Great Advice, so we can ignore all that.

on that note- the older i get, the more i really dislike iroh

[lives4lovesworld]

This meta will highlight GRRM own bias and double standards when it comes to his (= the narrative's) judgement of Aerys II Targaryen, as well as the insincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty.

GRRM singles Aerys out in his cruelty and has it directly linked to his unstable mental state, which is quite ironic(?) if one i) actually consideres how normalized violence, collective punishment and arbitrariness in ASoIaF world is. Yet few and far between are actually mad, and even fewer dubbed as such, and ii) puts his in direct comparison to other characters, which are never condemned as much as Aerys (if at all) by the narrative. And the fandom naturally doubles down on GRRM hypocrisy (given how anti!Targaryen it is) and insists to exaggerate Aerys's madness in every sense to one up against Daenerys Stormborn.

Aerys is condemn for his preferred method of execution. The fandom even goes so far to write numerous metas arguing death-through-fire somehow is crueler, worser and morally more appaling than any other method, especially when it's a Targaryen monarch to use it. This absurdity as already been refuted a couple of times in the context of defending show!Daenerys burning large parts of her enemies in the field, instead of the having her men exclusively killing them in battle. But as always it falls on deaf ears, since this hypocritical fandom holds Targaryen (and only Targaryens) to modern standards, to the point where they are condemn for executing their enemies. PERIOD.

And Aerys is the biggest victim of this absurdity. Both within the fandom (since nobody cares for him, no one defends him in pointing out the double standards) and narrative (since Daenerys has, unlike what the fandom conjuncts out of thin air, never burned anyone but Mirri Maz Duur and is a rescuer above all so GRRM obviously does and can not condemn her for deeds she didn't commit).

For example, he and Stannis Baratheon have both burnt their hands for "bad counsel during the war". Qarlton Chelsted was burned for his objection against Aerys's plan to torch King's Landing and Alester Florent for the letter that offered Stannis's full surrender (x) to House Lannister, after his lethal demise at the Blackwater (x). Stannis's hand was even his kin (through marriage) and in killing him, he committed one of the gravest crimes in their world. Yet Stannis is neither condemn as "mad" for the execution nor for the kinslaying nor the style of said execution.

The only thing GRRM seems to condemn Stannis for are his reasons behind all of his "sacrifices"; which is to misuse the power of death for his own personal gain. Be it to murder Renly to avoid defeat, take a rival out and gain his army, for favorable winds for his expedition, put a stop to the blizzard or gain dragons/be Azor Ahai. Although all of Stannis's misfortunes in his failing campaign for the Iron Throne (his demise at the Blackwater, his inability to gain anyone's genuine support, House Karstark's betrayal and the blizzard) could be interpreted as narrative punishment, Stannis's reputation (as a righteous, capable man) within the narrative never suffers.

The fandom as well has no qualms how Stannis let his uncle be burned alive in order. Especially, those that refuse to accept that Stannis is in fact NOT Azor Ahai, do not even condemn for that. It's excused as "means to an end" or "products of his time". Another prime example of the fandom's blatant hypocrisy and double standards one might add; While members of House Targaryen are condemn for the use of magic, especially blood sacrifices, and Daenerys is even accuse of burning people alive and kinslaying without this being the case, Stannis is allowed to utilize (blood and dark) magic, (consider) murder and burn people as he pleases, (consider) kinslaying (nephew, brother uncle-in-law and in the future his own daughter) and still be proclaimed the Right Man to Rule™ and altruistic TKwC.

Somehow in the fandom's nonsensical moral belief system Aerys depriving sadistic pleasure in watching men burn makes it apparently morally more appaling than Stannis's religious frantic, megalomaniac reasoning ("for the greater good") behind his executions (and given the fact that he is in fact NOT Azor Ahai/The Chosen One one could argue all these sacrifice are completely in vain.)

Aerys's cruelty is not unique for the ASoIaF world. And more importantly, I would dare to say that most of his "atrocities" such as i) the annihilation of House Darklyns and Hollard ii) the maiming of Ilyan Payne iii) his execution of Brandon Stark, Rickard Stark and their escort and his call for Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon's heads and iv) him prohibiting Elia Martell and her children to leave King's Landing, would not be seen as one of a madman, if Aerys's mental decline would have NOT been as apparent.

i) Lord Deny seized his King, killed his escort and subjected Aerys to torture for about half a year and threatened to have him killed in hopes to get the desired charter for Duskendale granted, that had been denied.

This was unprovoked high treason and broke all the laws such as the sacred guest right, the king's peace and all vows to obey and defend the king. How exactly should a king have dealt with such an uprising and insult to his person and political power? Which ruler would have suffered such grand affront, without exerting harsh punishment? Which ruler could have even allowed himself to be merciful, if it meant he will be seen as a weak king, signaling to the rest of the realm that one can take the king captive and hold hostage and get away with it?

To put in perspective; Robert Baratheon brutally smashed Balon Greyjoy's rebellion, burnt their homes, broke their castles, raped and murder the common folk and lastly gave Balon's last son as hostage to Eddard Stark to secure Balon's submission (x) after his elder brothers were slain. House Reyne and House Tarbeck were both in debt to House Lannister. Soley to restore House Lannister's prestige, Tywin demanded immediate repayment from them, (hostages if it was not possible). Both houses refused. Despite Tytos Lannister settling the matter, Tywin deliberately provoked both houses by ordering their respective lords to answer to Casterly Rock for their crimes. When refused, Tywin (without the leave of his lordly father!) raised an army and started his war of annihilation. The ruins of these houses' castles were left as reminders of the fate that awaits those who scorn the power of Casterly Rock, and "The Rains of Castamere" was written as a tribute to the event. Stannis Baratheon considered torching and raiding Claw Isle as punishment for its Lord bending the knee in captivity and House Stark extinguished House Greystark when it rose in rebellion together with House Bolton.

None of these extreme violent acts are deemed as "[their] terrible revenge" nor are these men seen as mad, cruel or unfit. And mind you, no one of these men experienced captivity and torture on their own person.

When one such reported that the captain of the Hand's personal guard, a knight named Ser Ilyn Payne, had been heard boasting it was Lord Tywin who truly ruled the Seven Kingdoms, His Grace sent the Kingsguard to arrest the man and had his tongue ripped out with red-hot pincers. - TWoIaF; The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

ii) The maiming of Ilyan Payne is seen as way too extreme even for ASoIaF (only exclusively by the fandom) and as "Aerys being unable to hear the hard truth", despite a monarch (unfortunately) being well in his rights to teach his subject "respect", if he openly mocks his better, extreme violent punishment from a ruler being normalized as sign of strength and a warning to any potential rebels.

The crimes everything boils down to;

The full depth of King Aerys's madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they demanded redress for Rhaegar's wrongs. Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Aerys had them brutally slain, then followed these murders by demanding that Lord Jon Arryn execute his former wards, Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: Robert’s Rebellion

iii) While the inverse-annals are clearly baised, GRRM has made it clear that Aerys is responsible for the rebellion (x), and that his call to execute them all was another product of his cruelty and paranoia. Which omits any nuance the situation had such nuances as;

Brandon and Rickard were on their way again back to Riverrun for the impending wedding between him and Catelyn Tully, when word reached Brandon of Lyanna's supposed abduction by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Brandon, along with his squire Ethan Glover, Kyle Royce, Elbert Arryn, and Jeffory Mallister, rode to King's Landing immediately. Upon entering the Red Keep, Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die". Rhaegar was not present, however, and Brandon and his companions were arrested by King Aerys II Targaryen and charged with plotting Rhaegar's murder. - awoiaf.westeros.org; Aerys II Targaryen: Year of the False Spring 

A paramount lord and his heir barging into the royal court of a king (half of which would rather dethrone him and most did not see him as the ruler of the realm) and brazenly demand the crown prince's head BASED ON RUMORS alone in front of said court. For a supposed crime that stands in direct contrary to what is known of said heir (x, x, x).

While it's a well established fact that this fandom only intrest is to present House Stark as poor, oppressed, altruistic and wronged victims and House Targaryen as the evil warmongering lunatics, it is still mind blowing to see people glorify Brandon's stupidity as Protective Big Bro Thang™, talk how he should have escape the situation unscattered (because they believe the starks are the Main Characters™ and should have all the Syndromes (like plot armor) of one) and his execution being yet another uncalled atrocity of Aerys's madness, when Brandon literally has committed high treason through his rash actions. Even Catelyn call Brandon's action "rash" and his would-be father-in-law Hoster Tully called him a "gallant fool" for it.

A highborn father that would have politely ask them to lay out their complains (again) behind closed doors so he might calmly listen to these allegations and their wish to see his oldest one dead after the spectacle of their entrance, has yet to be named by obnoxious neutrals and "intellectuals" preaching such scenario as the solution to this fiasco.

Realistically speaking, what should Aerys have done with a paramount lord, his heir and their escort breaking the king's peace and threatening House Targaryen's power by demanding the Crown Prince's head? Insulted this gravely that they about to rise in rebellion with mighty allies. When it comes to this situation Aerys had been caught between a rock and a hard place;

He could have a) dismissed the accusations, let them go home and have the realm think of him as weak. Home to their seats, where hot headed Brandon would have likely raised the north in rebellion anyway and whose brother's foster brother Robert Baratheon would have likely joined him for his wounded pride. Risk the riverlands to stand with them as well for their siege lord's daughter Catelyn would have wed Brandon Stark. Possibly the Vale too, for Jon Arryn's beloved forster son's brother has raised in rebellion and his bride is Lord Tully's other daughter and Brandon Stark's sister in law. Or b) use this incident to dispose his 'disloyal son', so his chosen heir Viserys would have less threats in his ascend on the throne later on, yet simountanastly signaling the realm that one can demand a Targaryen prince's head based on rumors alone. Establishing a most dangerous precedent for the future of House Targaryen.

What might have salvage the situation without an all-out-war or an unacceptable, most dangerous precedent for House Targaryen('s might) would have been to dismiss the accusations. Instead of summoning the fathers of the escort and executing them all along with Rickard and Brandon, he should have send them to the Wall (which would have made Eddard Lord of Winterfell) and send for Benjen Stark as cupbearer or squire at the court (so he might functions as hostage over the North).

And even this might have not have worked for i) it would have been still a too mild punishment for conspiring to murder the Iron Throne' heir and ii) for they could have just refuse to take the black once at the Wall, return to Winterfell with the help of the Night Watch and call to war anyway (though House Tully and Arryn might have been more reluctant to join them in such a scenario)

Do these nuances make Rickard, Brandon and Co's execution less gruesome and the call for Eddard and Robert's death morally justified? No, but they show that they could have been committed by a sane sovereign too. But instead of being seen as actions of a madman they would have been seen as too-harsh (failed) precautions. (IMO Tywin and Stannis would act the same way in such a situation with the big difference that they would be cold and caculative, whereas Aerys had become aroused)

Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. - TWpIaF; The Fall of the Dragons; The End

iv) Same with iii) if one was to look at the political situation (especially before the rebellion) and analyze Aerys's actions without dismissing them all as one kf a deranged lunatic, this particular action was actually quite savvy.

Prior to the rebellion, the royal court had been devided into two parties; the king's and the prince's;

Chief amongst the Mad King's supporters were three lords of his small council: Qarlton Chelsted, master of coin, Lucerys Velaryon, master of ships, and Symond Staunton, master of laws. The eunuch Varys, master of whisperers, and Wisdom Rossart, grand master of the Guild of Alchemists, also enjoyed the king's trust. Prince Rhaegar's support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince's confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia's uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar's friends and allies in King's Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Essentially the Second Dance of Dragons was brewing;

To Grand Maester Pycelle and Lord Owen Merryweather, the King's Hand, fell the unenviable task of keeping peace between these factions, even as their rivalry grew ever more venomous. In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost. A similarly bloody conflict might await the Seven Kingdoms once again, he warned, unless some accord could be reached that would satisfy both Prince Rhaegar's supporters and the king's. - TWoIaF; The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring  

So contrary to the fandom's insistence of Aerys's reason behind his prohibition for Elia and the children to leave the capital being unreasonable paranoia or malice (or even godamn racism??), Aerys was smart. By ensuring that they were located in the capital, he gave the dornish forces a reason to defend it (essentially ensuring his survival) then had Elia and the children been safely in Sunspear or Dragonstone, they would have had no reason to continue to fight (and be slowly overrun) for the defense of King's Landing if the only one remaining there was the king that had disinherited Rhaegar's entire lineage and proclaimed Viserys his heir after Rhaegar death at the Trident (ergo putting an end to Dorne's hope to size the Iron Throne through a Martell-Queen Consort and later a half Martell-king).

Also contrary to the fandom's insistence on how Aerys's cruelty and paranoia breaks even Westeros's norm in taking hostages in war, even from his supposed allies and families (through marriages) is not unusual; the kings of the Winter are known to have taken child hostages to secure their subjects' submission, Quentyn had been given to Lord Yronwood as "blood debt" by Doran Martell. Theon had been taken hostage by Eddard Stark to ensure his father's submission. The Redwyne twins have been taken hostages by the Lannister court to ensure their father's loyalty (to lend them his fleet in their war). Where is the condemnation for them? Also contrary to the fandom's insistence highborn hostages, especially those who are considered family members are also not treated badly. They experience most of the privileges their birth and status grants them. Cases such Sansa in King's Landing and Jaime in Riverrun are the expection, not the rule.

But what is to expect from a fandom that lays the blame for Elia Martell and her children's gruesome murders on Aerys Targaryen (her father-in-law and their grandfather) and Rhaegar Targaryen (her by-then dead husband and their father) instead on the heads of the rebels like the liege lord of the men to commit the murders (Tywin Lannister) or the self-styled king (Robert Baratheon) who sanctioned these murders later (going so far as to making mentioned liege lord his father-in-law)?

Aerys II Targaryen has always been exclusively presented by the fandom as this horrendous sadistic monster without a heart. Every act of his a epitome of stupidity and cruelty with Aerys's madness as an inevitable by-product from coming from an incestuous union, despite this not supported being the text.

Aerys Targaryen was not born that way. His mental state in his later years was a product of the immense trauma he experienced throughout his entire life; from witnessing the death of his entire family when he was 15 years old, to being powerless as he and Rhaella were forced to suffer still births, miscarriages and dead babes in the cribs to his imprisonment and torture in Duskendale (x). The justified constant fear of being dethroned by his own son (x) and the feeling of never being deemed worthy or competent enough by others to the point where he not even seen as The King (x) likely only added to his instability and cruelty.

His paranoia, especially concerned Tywin Lannister and Rhaegar Targaryen, was also anything but irrational; Aerys was not in the wrong to mistrust Rhaegar as he later planned to dethrone him, which could only result in Aerys’s death should Rhaegar wish to ascend the throne as comfortable as possible. Nor for being wary of Tywin Lannister, who gambled with his life at Duskendale in hopes to get Rhaegar on the throne with his daughter as his queen. (x)

Aerys was not a fool to prevent Tywin from becoming Rhaegar’s father-in-law. Before the rebellion, they were the biggest threats to Aerys’s reign. Not only did he prevent an alliance between his two greastest threats, in giving Rhaegar Elia Martell to wife. The princess to the least densly populated kingdom (which is quite hated by the more "civilized" southern kingdoms such as the Dornish Marches, Reach and Stormlands for their blood feuds (x,x)) and with a small army, he also prevented Rhaegar from gaining exponentially more support had he married a noble daughter from a house with more wealth, resources and men (like Cersei Lannister)

And mind you (!) had Steffon Baratheon succeeded in finding a "maid of noble birth from an old Valyrian bloodline" in the Free Cities, Aerys would have given Rhaegar's a woman to wife that has absolutely no ties to any kingdom (which would have given him no political advantage beside whatever wealth her family would have had across the sea) and who would bee seen as 'foreign stranger', similar to Larra Rogar, Viserys II's wife.

Such a choice at the time was politically quite savvy: His supposed heir secured the succession without shifting the power balance too much by preventing Rhaegar from amassing even more support through an more politically advantageous match. That this choice later on backfired in the face of an external political threat (e.g. the rebellion) was unforeseeable and unfortunate.

Jaime's rise to a kingsguard was as well a less then perfect solution by Aerys for his (justified) fears; in appointing Jaime as kingsguard he had gained the most valuable hostage against any possible rebellion from Tywin Lannister, but he also had to endure Tywin's son day and night as shadow. Aerys seemed to have played by the motto "keep your friends close, but your foes closer" with Jaime as he had previously done with Tywin, whom he had refused to dismiss as Hand or accept his resignation (x, x) and suffered greatly from it (at first mentally, later with his life). (x)

As said, the reason why I wrote this meta was to showcase the imsincerity of the fandom's obsession and exaggeration of Aerys II's "madness" and cruelty, as well as to point the nuances that are often overlooked simply because Aerys was mad.

Afterall, how comes that Aerys's cruelty and madness is more empathized than anyone else's by the fandom? Where does the intrest and obsession for it as well as the need to deliberately twist Aerys's relatively peaceful reign (x, x) into one of terror unseen before come from?

Simple because Aerys's cruelty and madness must be given such great narrative and political importance, and his reign must be one of the darkest times yet, so when dany antis proceed to write their "metas" of how of Daenerys will be rejected by Westeros, never know home or love, become the-hidden-mad!queen-all-along™ and step into her father's foot steps by torching King's Landing and committing mass murder, have a "basis". The first one is even more ridiculous considering that Rhagear was beloved during his days, and is still, despite actually living under Aerys's roof till his 16th birthday, unlike Dany.

Nothing more, and one knows so because the same people won't predicted the same for their tool-character "Aegon VI" who is the Mad King's supposed grandson and son to Prince Rhaegar, whom most of them condemn just as harshly for whatever headcanon (pRophECy oBbsEsSed, vIsenYa) that has been treated as canon for too long. Not to mention that there is an abundance of characters whose fathers were horrible, yet there aren't daily posts on a character's utter mental decline based upon their father's flaws. (bioessentialism)

In conclusion and defense of Aerys II Targaryen; i) he is as much of a victim of tragedy and cruelty than he was an enabler, ii) his paranoia was not unreasonable iii) his cruelty is not at all unique for the medivial ASoIaF world nor in comparison to other characters. In fact neither his paranoia nor his cruelty makes him stand out in his madness, but rather his manic-depressive behavior iv) how his mental state does not render all of his decisions as one of a mad man.

I would also like to say that a forced abdication of Aerys decided by a Great Council with Rhaegar ascending the throne would have neither be the perfect solution as it is often presented. Had his abdication gone relatively smoothly (which would NOT have necessarily be the case (x)) it would shaken the laws and rules of Westeros to its core.

As the first Great Council had done it, it would have given the lords of the realm again the idea and power to decide who is to rule them. Which would have not be the positive, progressive, humanitarian step towards democracy as most mistake it but path a way of war and instability ambitious, vile lords would have misused for their own gain yet again.

If the first Great Council had established an iron precedent on the matter of succession, than such a second one (in which the lords could abdicate their rightful king because they are not content with him) would have path the way for any man to inherit his male relative's position if he manges to convince enough of his subjects to abdicate their current sovereign and put him as his heir (as son, brother, nephew, grandson etc...) through bribery and whatnot.

An era of chaos unseen would follow. Just imagine what the lords of the realm would have done with a king like Aegon V that would robb them some of their absolute power through his reforms. It would hollow out the crown of any power to protect and serve the small folk (be it through humanitarian reforms, against its lords or plan costly, necessary infrastructure)

The wars such as the Wot5K are a direct result of the illegitimacy of Robert's rebellion and how it had shaken Westeros's laws. Instead of the once rather cemented hereditary monarchy, Robert opened the door for Westeros to be wreaked by every sovereign that believes he can muster enough manpower to establish himself a self-styled King. (x)

IMO instead of gathering a Second Great Council, Rhaegar honestly should have just found a discreet way to have his father's poisoned. Although this would have been OCC for noble, valiant Rhaegar and quite harsh to expect from a son to do to his father (no matter their estranged relationship) it would the most practical decision.

[dirtytransmasc]

this was made solely because I'm crying about Wayne Munson, and I love me some angst. this isn't a happy ending, no I'm not sorry.

what if because the upside down is stuck in time, time has no effect on things from our world. meaning if Eddie's body is still down there, he wouldn't be affected by time.

Eddies uncle ends up joining the crew because he wants to know what really happened to his nephew, the crew can use an extra set of hands handling a literal fucking apocalypse, and when I'm Hawkins you are one wrong move from finding out life is a lie and it's being puppeteered by the government.

what if Wayne ends up in the upside down, and he finds Eddie's body, and because it hasn't been affected by time he just looks asleep, he hasn't started the decomp process, and Wayne is just destroyed by it.

Eddie is bruised and bloody, he's paler the normal, he looks socks and fragile and Wayne feels this instinct to protect him, to make it all better, but he knows he can't. he can't undo death, he can't nurse it away like the ruthless stomach bugs and viruses Eddie would pick up when he was still in school. he can't save his son, his little boy from death, like he did his father.

imagine Wayne Munson finally finding his boy, dead, and scooping him up. imagine him hugging him, sobbing, rocking his son like he used to do when he was little. pressing cold hands to his mouth in attempts to warm them and smoothing his hair way from his eyes.

mumbling "I've gotch'ya son, we're going home" as he carries him back towards the gate.

wayne would refuse to bury him as is, he's cleaned Eddie up many a time and he's not afraid of doing it now. imagine him cleaning Eddie's body and sobbing as he comes across each wound, each scar from his past. imagine him washing Eddie's hair (bonus, he borrows some of the good stuff from Steve since he was never able to afford it for Eddie), brushing out each lock with care. imagine him deciding what to dress him in, what he's willing to part with.

imagine Wayne having to help dig the grave himself, having to lower Eddie in, Eddie's wrapped in a blanket since they can't get a coffin at this point in time, having to give a rushed eulogy, making a cross out of scrap wood, eyes so filled with tears he cuts himself trying to carve Eddie's name into it.

imagine him sitting with Eddie for a good while, still caressing his scarred face, cause he can't pull himself away. he has to walk away when they start burying him, he can't watch his son be covered in dirt. Eddie was always claustrophobic and he couldn't imagine the fear he would feel being buried.

imagine him helping plant flowers at his grave, flowers deemed 'weeds' cause Eddie was so fond of them, claiming it was just another act of 'societies hypocrisy' deeming perfect good plants a nuisance because they 'didnt conform to hypocritical, nonsensical, idiotic standards' as Eddie put it.

imagine him sitting there night after night, smoking with his nephew, playing him the very guitar he taught Eddie on (Wayne introduced him to guitar on an acoustic, I will die on this hill, that's why he's so passionate about his music since it was always fueled by his real dad). playing the lullaby's he would play for Eddie when he was sick or having blights of nightmares. he plays his nephew to sleep every night.

I'm not crying, you're crying.

[tokoyamisstuff]

Scandal Ch. 5 - Loki x Reader

Summary: Loki returns to claim what is his - willing to kill everyone in his way.

Warnings: Angst.

Words: ~1800

I Story Masterlist I General Masterlist I

Taglist: @catlover092402152, @hi-there-x, @haloangel391, @misssilencewritewell, @babayaga67, @accioremuslupinn, @mochimommy2002, @just-someone-who-likes-to-write, @damalseer, @bethanystan, @loser-alert, @star017, @nina1800, @queenariesofnarnia, @n1fangirlsblog, @vengefulsokovian, @lunamoonbby, @freyagallileaevans, @emmojoy, @literate-lamb, @aninnai​, @justsomerandompersonintheworld​

A/N: Sweet little Feedback Anon, I took your suggestion. You know which one I mean if you see it. (:

Btw guys I have like 60+ Drafts I need to finish so pls be patient with me.

Word sure spreads fast among the folk of Asgard, about Odin’s shame and your innocence.

Since his lies had weakened the favor among his subjects, the Allfather was desperate to clean his name and reputation, ultimatively inviting you to come back.

But you declined, stating that this wasn’t your homeland anymore ever since they betrayed you to fullfill their selfish ambitions.

However, Asgard’s hypocrisy wasn’t the only reason you chose to stay on Midgard - you just knew that it would break your heart every day you’d spend on a place with so many memories connected to your deceased husband.

Earthlings, the people of S.H.I.E.L.D and especially Thor’s friends Jane and Erik Selvic had basically become like family to you. Even though they could never fill the void Loki had left in your heart, things being like this was more than you could wish for.

“Lady Y/N!” a familiar voice greeted you, yet his worried tone startled you. Thor was already standing in your room, practically kicking in your door as he was visibly upset.

Immediately, you put Liam into his crib and rushed to his side. “What’s the matter?!”

A strange mix of horror and excitement was stretched across his face, making your heart sink to your stomach.

Actually, you didn’t want to involve yourself with the Asgardians any further. All you ever wanted was for your child to be healthy and happy, no matter where this was possible.

But Thor was still your cherished brother-in-law, as well as a wonderful uncle, never ceasing to provide for you and Liam, even when everyone else had forsaken you.

Yet what he was about to tell you let your blood run cold: 

“Loki is back.”

Immediately, all the walls you had built up over those past months were crumbling as you collapsed to the floor, crying out of anger and relief.

“H-How? How is this even possible?! He’s dead! Loki died!”

“Pull yourself together, Lady Y/N!” Thor has always been a rather touchy-feely kind of person, in opposite to his raw and bulky appearance.

But right now, he wouldn’t dare to hug or console you, like he’d usually do. Instead, he was offering you a hand to help you get back up - which you wouldn’t be able to take just yet. “There’s no use in overthinking this! We need to hurry!”

“What do you even want me to do?” you wondered, because if your husband was really alive, you’d doubt him wanting to see you. “He’s changed...killed a lot of people before he disappeared. And still, I don’t wanna fight him. How can I be of any help at all?!?”

“We know he’s probably after you and the child” the God of Thunder stated coldly. “So you need to be transferred to a safe location.”

What can be more safe than a base of S.H.I.E.L.D? If only you knew he had already demolished a whole, giant outpost of them with ease...

“I’ll explain everything to you on the way.” “Let me quickly get the baby.”

“What, did you forget the name of your nephew already?” you chuckled awkwardly, but seeming to have struck a nerve.

Thor was only slowly approaching the crib in which your lovely baby was resting, staring at it with awe while his trembling hand caressed Liam’s cheek.

“Incredible...” he whispered mainly to himself,  as if this wasn’t the thousandth time he would lay eyes upon him. “He’s just like I remember him.”

Something was off.

Of course Thor had a spare key to your flat, but you had never heared him unlock it - he had just kind of appeared in the middle of the room. Could as well be that you had been to invested with something, or buried in thought to notice him, and yet...

“Wait” you stated, making him flinch away from the child and turn around. “My knees are still weak. Help me up first.”

With heavy steps, Thor would force himself away from the crib and towards you again, lending you another hand and easily pulling you up - just for you to point a sharp dagger to his throat.

“Lady Y/N, when did you summo-”

“Shut up!” you hissed, and the god held his hands into the air to assure his goodwill. "Drop the disguse. Now!”

The man let out an amused huff, a taint of green covering his body to revert it back to normal - revealing your husband.

His hair had become longer, and dark rings showed how devastating those past months went by for him. Yet still, he was unmistakingly your husband.

Yet a faint, mad spark in his eyes was what worried you the most.

Now he was holding a knife as well, both circling around the crib with a knife at each other’s throat, as if to dance with each other.

“So it’s really you, Loki?”

“The one and only” he declared, chest swelling with pride at his performance and completely ignoring your hostile undertone. “I missed you painfully, my sweetling.”

He looked to the side where your son was still sleeping soundly, regret clearly visible on his face. “Wha- what name did you give our child?”

“Liam it is.”

The smallest of smiles tugged on his lips, swallowing harshly to surpress the sobs wanting to break free. “Beautiful name. Very well chosen.”

Pain was stretching across your features, desperately trying for the dam of emotions to not break. The dagger in your hand vanished, rather choosing to reluctantly caress his cheek - to make sure this was really him, and not one of his illusions.

And it was really him, leaning into your touch with a content purr. “Yes, my love, just like tha-”

A loud noise drang to his ear, effectively cutting him off. He needed a second to understand that it was in fact you slapping him what caused the interruption.

“Dear, wait, I-” Another hit, this time it was your knee digging into his groin, making him gasp in pain.

With his current power, it would be a piece of cake to block you - yet he knew that after everything that had happened to you, and everything he had done...

...it was what he deserved. So he would allow you to let off some steam.

Yet much to his surprise, you were done already - now grabbing desperately on his cloak and pulling him in for a passionate kiss.

He immediately reciprocated, dropping his weapon as well to embrace you fully, lips mingling with each other over and over again.

Oh, how long had both of you craved for each other?

“Sorry” you panted as your lips finally parted, “Just needed to get that off my chest.”

“Do not apologize, my love” Loki declared, chin resting atop of your head, still no intention to let go off of you. “I deserve far worse than that.”

You looked up to him, the kiss having made something surface in his eyes: So solemn, and incredibly fragile, it made your heart ache.

“Wha- what happened to you? Where have you been all this time?”

Loki’s face contorted at the question, as if the thoughts in his mind were physically painful. But his mind was clouded, unable to make his proper memory resurfacing. “Places far beyond your imagination, dear. And I have learned many things.”

“I-I thought I had lost you...” you ultimatively began to sob, face dug into his chest.

“No” the god whispered softly, his gaze still unwavering. “You always have me. I promise.”

“What now?” you sniveled as he gently pet your head, just as back in good old times. “Where do we go?”

“What do you mean?” Loki’s features creased into a slight frown, “We stay here. There’s no need to leave or flee.”

“Bu-” you hesistantly took a few steps back, to take in his full reaction. “But you’re a wanted criminal, Loki! On Asgard as well as Midgard!”

His manner became more defensive again, glee radiating off of him. “Oh, my sweet, innocent Y/N...still the idealist, I see.”

“And you are still insufferable” you scoffed back, crossing your arms. “What do you mean?”

Actually, you dreaded the answer.

The man seemed to be thinking about many things at once, eyes narrowing before he finally took a hold of your hand, squeezing it ever so slightly when he saw that you were still wearing his ring - even after everything that had happened.

“Y/N, my love, those deaths were a necessary evil.” He tried to peck a quick kiss on your hand, but you pulled away at those words. “The only crime I feel guilty for is having left the love of my life. But don’t you worry, I’ll make up for it.”

He summoned a staff, glowing in the same blue as the tesseract - and much to your terror, his eyes started to adapt to them as well.

“I will create my own kingdom, Y/N! Here on Midgard, with you as my queen! This is what you deserve, my love! You and our child will have everything you desire and more!”

“This is madness, Loki!” It wasn’t the first time he had heared that.

People always treated him wrongly, afterwards wondering why he was trying to create felicity on his own. “Is it?” he croaked, “Is it madness for a person born to rule two kingdoms to create a home he never had?”

His plan did not merit awe or any such feelings he hoped you to have - the only person in the world he thought would understand him.

“Loki, what your parents have done to you is inexcusable, yet-”

“They’re not my parents!” he screamed enraged, eyes then widened in shock that he had raised his voice at you. “My apologies, I...”

“They have kept the truth from you so that you’d never feel different. You know you’re their son, and the Asgardians are your family. You must know that!”

“You speak like mother” he spat, and still Frigga’s words he could not shake off as easily as Odin’s. “There is no going back to that place, and Jotunheim I never had a connection with. You most likely heared that I tried to kill Laufey, yes?”

Nodding in silence, you nervously bit your lip. “Please...” Wrapping your arms around him and placing one ear at his sternum, you could clearly hear how his heart was fighting a war, struggling to decide.

“You can still stop whatever you were gonna do. We can start anew somewhere, lead a peaceful life with Liam. I don’t need wealth or power, and you clearly know any of this wouldn’t give you the satisfaction you’re searching for!”

“As always, you’re right” he grumbled deeply, already regretting what he was about to do. “But it’s not that easy, my naive little dove.”

“No~” With his hand on the back of your neck, he infused a powerful magic inside your body, slowly shutting down your nervous system completely. As careful as possible, he cradled you in his arms and slowly led you to the floor, then proceeding to take his heir.

“The only thing I need for myself is our little family - and I will avenge you by murdering anyone that did you wrong, or tries to separate us again.”

[thebluelemontree]

At what point in ACOK do you think Aeron Greyjoy came to the definitive conclusion that Theon had indeed become a “soft” greenlander and puppet of the Starks? Was it five seconds into their initial conversation in Lordsport, or later on in the book, in your opinion?

I think Aeron already held that assumption before Theon even arrived, and was continuously affirmed of it the longer he was in Theon's presence. When the Damphair comes to collect Theon from the pier, his nephew's "glorious" return is proclaimed by the captain of the Myraham, a trading vessel, thusly: "We're out of Oldtown," the captain called down, "bearing apples and oranges, wines from the Arbor, feathers from the Summer Isles. I have pepper, woven leathers, a bolt of Myrish lace, mirrors for milady, a pair of Oldtown woodharps sweet as any you ever heard." The gangplank descended with a creak and a thud. "And I've brought your heir back to you."

The Lordsport men gazed on Theon with blank, bovine eyes, and he realized that they did not know who he was. It made him angry. He pressed a golden dragon into the captain's palm. "Have your men bring my things." Without waiting for a reply, he strode down the gangplank. I'm fairly certain the blank stares are not because they didn't know who Theon was. They were just told. It's that Theon is unceremoniously listed with the cargo AFTER the premium goods get first billing. And then Theon pays the captain in gold. Like, actual money for being offloaded as such. Oof. I can't think of a more culturally discordant homecoming for an ironborn prince. It's made worse by the fact that Theon is almost entirely lacking in self-awareness of how disconnected he is from the people and place he hoped to be welcomed back to. As if that weren't enough, Aeron then sees the embarrassingly besotted captain's daughter throwing herself at Theon as they part ways. This is kinda funny since Theon briefly mused that he ought to claim her as a proper salt wife, like the ironborn of old, which honestly would have granted him a bit more respectability at this moment if he had. Don't get me wrong, traditional ironborn culture is pukeworthy. I think it's generally a good thing Theon sucks at it, but this is the way Aeron would probably see it. One gets the impression he raked his eyes over this sorry spectacle, whispered "oh for fuck's sake," and just walked off: He hurried after his uncle, who was already well down the pier. Theon caught him with a dozen long strides. "I had not looked for you, Uncle. After ten years, I thought perhaps my lord father and lady mother might come themselves, or send Dagmer with an honor guard."

"It is not for you to question the commands of the Lord Reaper of Pyke." The priest's manner was chilly, most unlike the man Theon remembered. Aeron Greyjoy had been the most amiable of his uncles, feckless and quick to laugh, fond of songs, ale, and women. It is said that what we despise in others is what we actually despise in ourselves. Aeron was once a lot more like Theon, even in earning Balon's displeasure with his antics. He even spent some time as a captive in Lannisport, holding pissing contests with his jailers to pass the time. Nope, no bonding with soft green landers there. Definitely no fraternizing with them as equals. No, siree. Rather than empathizing with Theon for his years kept abroad as a hostage as much as for his foolishness and vanity, Aeron is curt, cold, and lording his piety over his nephew for their entire encounter. The judgement cast on Theon was already well-established long ago in his identity as the Damphair -- he who looks down upon those who smile, joke, and have a lust for life. There's a fair bit of hypocrisy and self-loathing being projected here. Though he blesses Theon and bids him to recite the words of the Drowned God, he goes straight for the jugular the second Theon presses his claim to the Seastone Chair:

His uncle grunted. "You warn a servant of the Drowned God, boy? You have forgotten more than you know. And you are a great fool if you believe your lord father will ever hand these holy islands over to a Stark. Now be silent. The ride is long enough without your magpie chatterings." You know, someone could have accused Aeron of being Lannister once for finding some comraderie beneath the Rock and smiling a little too much through his imprisonment. Maybe they did between his return home and his later near-death experience. As Theon notes, his uncle stays silent when he makes a fond connection between Robb's direwolf and his sister's longboat. Then when Theon mentions he remembers him as the uncle who loved to drink and sing, Aeron responds with a lofty platitude that that guy is no more, and he's been transformed utterly into a godly man as if he's trying to put many miles between the two as possible. It feels like does not like being reminded unless there is an asterisk "he sucked and he's dead" attatched. As a full-blown zealot of the Old Way, no one could ever accuse Aeron of being a sorry excuse for an ironborn again. Theon's just a living, breathing reminder and his ineptitude touches a nerve. Thanks for the question.

[oldbookist]

the caesar problem

Happy Ides of March and it is a lovely night to talk about the Caesar motif in Les Misérables, don't you think?

Caesar is not really important in his own right despite being regularly name dropped, the important thing is what he represents (arguably like Shakespeare's.) In this case, abstractly, glorious despotism, or specifically, Napoleon.

It was not a new comparison, and certainly not inherently derogatory, as it was frequently espoused by Napoleon's supporters—including his nephew Napoleon III, who later wrote a biography of Caesar in which he explicitly compared the two. Napoleon himself wrote commentaries on Caesar's battles, comparing himself and defending Caesar's dictatorship.

So the Caesar-Napoleon image was well formed in the French consciousness when Hugo published Les Mis. And Hugo plays along with it, and you'll find that comparison made in the Waterloo chapters and during Marius's "discovery" of Bonapartism—and, as is best remembered, in his speech to Les Amis.

You all know it (and Combeferre's response) and I've written about it before here.

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Les Mis was published during the reign of Napoleon III while Hugo was in exile. He was in exile was for declaring the new Emperor a traitor to France, then published political pamphlets against him (one titled "Napoleon the Little") which were promptly banned, but smuggled into France.

Napoleon III himself was quite concerned with upholding his uncle's veneration in order to maintain the legitimacy of his own rule. So Combeferre and Marius's argument is not only about Napoleon's historical legacy, but highly relevant and provocative in the context the book was published.

This is only part of a broader dialogue about Caesar, though, partly narrated between Combeferre and Grantaire.

In fact Grantaire is the first to bring up Caesar in the chapter, as part of his first drunken ramble:

"Whom do you admire, the slain or the slayer, Caesar or Brutus? Generally men are in favor of the slayer. Long live Brutus, he has slain! There lies the virtue."

And again in "Preliminary Gaieties":

"Great accidents are the law; the order of things cannot do without them; and, judging from the apparition of comets, one would be tempted to think that Heaven itself finds actors needed for its performance. At the moment when one expects it the least, God placards a meteor on the wall of the firmament. Some queer star turns up, underlined by an enormous tail. And that causes the death of Caesar. Brutus deals him a blow with a knife, and God a blow with a comet. Crac, and behold an aurora borealis, behold a revolution, behold a great man; ’93 in big letters, Napoleon on guard, the comet of 1811 at the head of the poster."

In both cases he's being characteristically sarcastic, describing the inanity of these so-called great events, and as usual, the hypocrisy and wretchedness of the world.

On the other hand we have Combeferre, who is an interesting ideological objector here—first of all because he is the exact opposite of Grantaire with his utter belief in pure progress, but also because Combeferre is not necessarily the one you would expect to be a staunch defender of Caesar's assassination.

“Caesar,” said Combeferre, “fell justly. Cicero was severe towards Caesar, and he was right. That severity is not diatribe. When Zoïlus insults Homer, when Maevius insults Virgil, when Visé insults Molière, when Pope insults Shakespeare, when Frederic insults Voltaire, it is an old law of envy and hatred which is being carried out; genius attracts insult, great men are always more or less barked at. But Zoïlus and Cicero are two different persons. Cicero is an arbiter in thought, just as Brutus is an arbiter by the sword. For my own part, I blame that last justice, the blade; but, antiquity admitted it. Caesar, the violator of the Rubicon, conferring, as though they came from him, the dignities which emanated from the people, not rising at the entrance of the senate, committed the acts of a king and almost of a tyrant, regia ac pene tyrannica. He was a great man; so much the worse, or so much the better; the lesson is but the more exalted. His twenty-three wounds touch me less than the spitting in the face of Jesus Christ. Caesar is stabbed by the senators; Christ is cuffed by lackeys. One feels the God through the greater outrage.”

But there's his answer to Grantaire's first question. Combeferre, pacifist, lover of peaceful progress and frequently a mouthpiece for Hugo's own beliefs, thinks Caesar's assassination was justified. This lines up with a broader theme that starts all the way back with the Conventionist—that revolutions may be a necessary and justifiable part of progress, and that tyranny must not be tolerated despite the glories and greatness Marius points out, and despite the human costs of doing so. Combeferre himself is preparing to die on the barricade when he says this, so it feels like a justification for themselves and their actions.

And Combeferre gets the last word on this. Caesar isn't mentioned again in the book.

[golwenlothlindel]

Oh, Turgon absolutely has a bit of hypocrisy which only gets worse with time. In every other way he takes after the Vanyarin side of the family, except looks: and this is no exception. I do think that subconsciously he believes he is holier than others. I will once again remind everyone that Tuor, nephew of the human insane enough to argue with Morgoth to his face, called Turgon crazy. He's not angy crazy like Fëanor, he's just batshit insane in a cold calculating way.

But I think you're missing another factor here. The Helcaraxë. I don't think Turgon thought the Kinslaying was okay. But I do think he and the other inhabitants of Gondolin were desensetized to death. The way the Kinslaying is written about, it doesn't sound like elves had the death penalty. And Turgon isn't imposing this as a penalty for a crime. He's doing it in order to protect all of his people, because if word got out about the city they would all be toast. But yes, his reasoning is definitely fucked up. It's still switch the trolley to run over one guy instead of five. Where did he get that reasoning? From the Ice. From being forced to let Elenwë die to save Idril.

It specifically indicates that Turgon chose to save Idril, and isn't this the same calculation? Idril has yet to marry and produce a child. Saving her is saving all her potential children. It's trading one life for several lives. It's placing a finite value on a person's life, on a life that should be infinite. It's fucked up, but he's forced into that mindset by circumstances and then he gets stuck in it. Partly because he's being driven by forces outside his control. He's driven by the prophecy, as much as the Fëanorians are by the Oath (which honestly I think this has something to do with his reconcilliation with the Fëanorians at the Nirnaeth).

I think he also doesn't really view Eöl as kin, I think in his mind Aredhel's marriage wasn't legitimate perhaps because he knew she didn't want it. So I don't think he conceives of killing Eöl as kinslaying. In his mind, Eöl is the hypocrite for bitching about kinslaying and then turning to murder his child. Of course since Eöl was a cousin of Thingol, it would still be kinslaying even if he wasn't Aredhel's husband. But it's possible Turgon didn't know that. I think he would be 🙀 when Mandos points out his hypocrisy.

Also, when Gandalf tells Frodo "do not be so quick to deal out death in judgement for even the Wise cannot see all ends" he was definitely thinking about Maeglin. Maeglin was an adult, he was still responsible for his own bad choices, but he can get slack because of crazy dad and crazy uncle.

Eol’s fucking death man, it gets to me

It’s just… Maeglin spends his youth hearing two different stories about his mother’s people. On one hand, they’re the cleverest elves with the most beautiful cities and on the other they’re kinslayers and invaders

Emphasis on the kinslayers

And then Maeglin, Eol, and Aredhel converge on Gondolin, and it is a beautiful city, but they’re also given a choice: stay or die

And Eol chooses death.

He tries to choose so for his son, instead kills Aredhel (that notably being her choice), betrays part of what he so hated about the Noldor, and then they throw him off a fucking cliff

Christ. So here’s my question. Where did the Noldor get the idea for state-sanctioned murder?

For state-sanctioned kinslaying

Where/how/why does Turgon get the idea that this is okay based on previously established Elf morals on killing? Did he invent state-sanctioned executions?

Did Valinor have state-sanctioned murder, and this was considered acceptable because they become ‘jailcrows of Mandos’? Where do Elves get the concept for jails otherwise? I mean, I doubt this is the case, but otherwise this has some serious implications for Turgon’s character.

Because it means he saw the First Kinslaying (which his brother participated in) and decided: this is okay when I do it for a good cause.

Which is exactly what Feanor thought

He just adds bureaucracy and the veneer of civilization to it, decides this doesn’t /really/ count as ‘kinslaying’ and starts murdering anyone who stumbles on his city but doesn’t want to be imprisoned in it. That’s some fucking hypocrisy there, by Elf morals

And Maeglin, whose been told his whole life that his mothers people are murderers, upon entering Gondolin, has that immediately proven right

[finitefall]

Honestly I think people who criticize Jonerys for being incest are stupid because they didn’t know they were related when they met. That’s what creates the gut “ick” feeling most people have at the prospect of mating with relatives. We can’t read someone’s DNA to tell who’s a relative. Our brains identify relatives based on experience. Meanwhile they think Jon//sa is better because they’re less related when Jon and Sansa actually grew up together and would recognize each other as relatives. Personally I’m not a fan of Daemyra (not a fan of Rhae//nicent either though) but the argument kind of applies. Daemon rarely sees Rhaenyra as she grows up. Plus I think the “ick” instinct must just be broken in Targaryens since we have siblings who were raised together feeling attraction to each other, which rarely happens in real life. I don’t like Daemyra because of the age factor but that’s just my personal taste and I’m not going to go slamming it and sending anon hate 🥴

Thank you for this message, nonnie! It's very much appreciated after the last one.

I don't think it was went by a Jonsa shipper, but yes there's definitely a huge hypocrisy with Jonsa shippers who say Jonerys is disgusting because Dany is Jon's aunt by blood. If you're disgusted even by fictional incest, Jonerys should be the one you find the least disgusting since they didn't grew up together. Their real issue isn't incest though, they just hate Daenerys. You just have to see so many of them putting the "she's his aunt" argument against this ship at the same level as "she's barren" (which is a disgusting argument, thrown like an insult against a woman). Jonsa shippers (most of them) are really just in love with fanon Sansa and use book quotes from Jon's POV about Arya, pretending they're about Sansa.

I don't think shared blood will be an issue for book!Jon, by the way. And there's heavy Jonerys foreshadowing in the books, no matter if people like it or not. It's happening, get used to it.

Obviously, Rhaenyra and Daemon aren't disgusted since Targaryens had been marrying brother to sister for centuries. They don't come from the same culture and the law was changed for them (since it was against The Faith of the Seven). It's interesting though to note that it was only brother and sister, father and daughter, mother and son that are considered incest in Westeros. First cousins isn't considered as incest, uncle and niece or aunt and nephew can also happen by followers of the Old Gods (I do think that while it's not written, The Faith of the Seven protest against it? I'll need to check my ASOIAF History again!)

I'm not sure how old Rhaenyra and Daemon are supposed to be in HOTD, but they married when she was 23 and him 39. I think the age difference is supposed to be the same in the show? The age gap doesn't bother me, but it can bother many people. You could even not like Daemyra because them being uncle and niece does bother you even in fiction - as long as you don't go around hating on those who ship it and that's what matters.

I can totally understand someone who doesn't like an incestuous ship, what they need to understand is that me and plenty of other fans actually separate incest in fiction from incest in real life. Yes, I loved Cesare and Lucrezia in The Borgias even though they're brother and sister and I'm disgusted about this happening in reality at the same time. It's entirely possible, it's even the case of most people who love an incestuous ship. It's incredible to have to have to explain this.

[merakilyy]

Lan Qiren is Not a Completely Terrible Parent + Bonus Headcanon

Some disorganized thoughts on Lan Qiren!

A lot of my thoughts on Lan Qiren come from a bilibili article breaking down what it means be be righteous (雅正) in accordance to the Lan Sect’s motto. The article is in Chinese so I’ll just sum up some of the major ideas first:

***

~It fundamentally refutes the idea of Lan Wangji as the “black sheep” in the Lan Sect 

~It assumes Cloud Recesses has a highly collective intrasect environment. Children are raised not just by the parents, but by the entire Sect. 

~The Elders raised Wangji and saw him grew up and didn’t have the heart to hurt Wangji, even after he escaped with Wei Wuxian into the cave. Western fandom especially tends to see the elders as strict, conservative disciplinarians who are rigid in their beliefs to the point of hypocrisy. This meta refutes that. It’s unreasonable that Wangji, no matter how strong his cultivation, would be able to stand on his own against 33 seasoned cultivators. So, contrary to popular belief, the elders allowed Wangji to injure them so they would not have to harm a child of the Sect.

~Lan Sect rules are not about what is literally written, but the spirit of the rules. This also makes sense given that when you have 4000+ rules, some rules are bound to contradict one another. And, many rules are quite vague. Eg. “sneering for no reason is prohibited.” Where is the line that justifies sneering? There is none because the idea is not “don’t sneer for no reason,” the idea is “don’t be unnecessarily rude.” In many of the rules, there is room for interpretation and it is this process of interpretation that is valued over the literal inscription of the rules. 

~Basically, they are not good people because of the rules. They are good people because they are good people. The rules guide them to make good judgement, but good judgement does not comes from following the rules to a T.

~So the function of 雅正 (to be righteous) is internal, not performative.

~It is this internal clarity that makes Gusu Lan “innocent” (the word used is 纯真; 纯/chun = pure, clarity, genuine, practised and 真/zhen = true, real, genuine, clear)

~There is also a long history of Lans being deviant and rebellious. In CQL, there is Lan Yi who invents guqin battle techniques. They are also the only Clan to have been led by a female cultivator. Qingheng-jun clearly went against orthodoxy by marrying a murderer, but still remained in Cloud Recesses. We’re going to set aside consent here because is a total other separate conversation, but his punishment is self-imposed, not enforced by the Sect. So there are a lot of rules, but they aren’t pedantic. There is leeway, as seen in Lan Yi, but only within reason, as demonstrated by Qingheng-jun.

~Like his ancestors, Wangji also deviated from the straightforward path but his sect accepted his unrepentant love for Wei Wuxian in the end.

~In the end, Wangji gets what he wants: to live with Wei Wuxian in Cloud Recess. But he only gets this because the elders and Lan Qiren allow him to.

~To allow Wei Wuxian to exist in Cloud Recesses, the Lan Sect has to be more inclusive than we typically see them as.

~Despite everything, Lan Wangji still wants to return to Cloud Recesses because it is home to him.

~This is also my favourite explanation of Jingyi’s Jingyi-ness. Rather than Wangji (and possibly Xichen) singlehandedly creating a space for Jingyi, that space already existed. Jingyi isn’t as much of a black sheep as people portray him as because you don’t grow into a Jingyi if everyone is constantly yelling at you to follow rules. CQL Jingyi is plenty sassy, even in front of Lan Qiren, and Jingyi isn’t stupid! He was born and raised in Cloud Recesses, he knows when he is pushing several of the rules and he knows that he has the leeway to do so, and that Lan Qiren will not stop him (within reason).

~”Be righteous” is how the Lan motto is translated in English, but it’s….not exactly what it is in Chinese.

~In modern Chinese, it’s  雅正.  雅/ya = elegance, graceful and 正/zheng = positive, correct, straight, just. 

~Notice how the two parts of the motto contrast one another. Ya is outward, something that dictates how you act. Zheng is internal, determined by your actions and attitudes. Zheng is the foundation of Ya.

~As a related aside, the literary meaning of 雅正 is slightly different; it means to be correct and honest, and to welcome corrections to one’s shortcomings. The literary 雅 is to be proper。

~The meta ends with this beautiful line: 所谓的“雅正”，家族���出来，体雅是表象，心正才是更本。Now to ruin it in translation: “Each configuration of “righteousness,” as taught by the Sect, is outward physical elegance built on the foundation of a moral heart.”

~TLDR: Rebelliousness is a function of Gusu Lan, not an anomaly.

***

Onto some fun headcanons!

~Lan Qiren has personal issues with Wei Wuxian because of his mother, but he is more horrified by Wei Wuxian because Wei Wuxian has all this potential and then uses it to go down the heretial path?? Blaphemous. All that ability, all that work, only to throw it all away? Wei Wuxian is incredibly competent and Lan Qiren begrudgingly respects that competence. What he can’t stand is Wei Wuxian’s lackadaisical attitude towards his cultivation.

~In novel canon, Lan Qiren accepts Wangji and Wei Wuxian’s marriage. He definitely still has issues with Wei Wuxian for being a mass murderer, a demonic cultivator, for desecrating the dead, etc. Also for his general Wei Wuxian-ness. But Wei Wuxian is nothing is not incredibly competent and Lan Qiren eventually softens towards Wei Wuxian because of that competence. Once Wei Wuxian starts using that competence to be useful to the Sect and not just to be as annoying as possible, he gets Lan Qiren’s approval. 

~Secretly, of course. Lan Qiren would qi deviate before saying nice about Wei Wuxian to his face.

~I totally wrote a fic on Lan Qiren publicly defending Wei Wuxian heheh

~Cloud Recesses is only so big and Lan Qiren can’t avoid Wei Wuxian, even if he is never trying to seek him out. Plus, Wei Wuxian has this way of being in the most inconvenient place at the most inconvenient time.

~We all agree Wei Wuxian is a terrible cook. But, is he a bad cook because he adds too much spice, or he is a bad cook because he’s a bad cook? He did manage to cook congee for the ducklings in Yi Cheng without any fatalities. so I’m inclined to believe the former.

~Lan Qiren definitely thinks Wei Wuxian is a terrible cook, especially after hearing about how Wei Wuxian burned a hole in a pot.

~But Wei Wuxian is Wei Wuxian and even if he can’t be trusted with spices (or anything remotely resembling seasoning), he can make plain congee just fine....after some practice 

~Lan Qiren eats this congee and it’s a perfectly good congee. Ideal thickness, light taste, no spices, slides down the throat smoothly and pairs perfectly with his dried zhacai (pickled mustard; a super common Chinese side dish). He asks who made the congee, expecting it to be Sizhui. He chokes when he is told Wei Wuxian is the cook.

~Lan Qiren knows how to be a good parent in theory. He’s just terrible at putting it to practice.

~Jingyi’s parents, when he was still a terrible toddler wreaking havoc everywhere, went to Lan Qiren for desperate advice like “why is our child such a terrible Lan???”

~But Jingyi isn’t actually Lan Qiren’s kid so he actually gives good advice. “Give him a toy, he’ll tire himself out for his nap,” “Let him crawl around, just cover sharp objects and table corners,” and “give him a crushed peach as a reward for walking across the room”

~But he doesn’t know how to talk to Xichen or Wangji as family. He loves them both dearly – obviously he raised them, but they’re also good nephews!! Questionable taste in men aside, they are excellent nephews! He just doesn’t know how to talk to them outside of official sect business.

~Especially with Wangji, He kind of did declare Wangji’s husband a heretic, a traitor, was extra hard on Wei Wuxian as a student, Wangji for visiting Wei Wuxian. And there’s that whole discipline whip thing.

~Which, to be fair, did end up saving Wangji’s life. Raising his sword against Sect Elders and one’s own family is an act of treason punishable by execution. But Lan Qiren can’t just execute his own nephew….he has a heart, even if no one believes it

~33 discipline lashes from the discipline whip is very harsh and Lan Qiren won’t pretend otherwise. But he could gamble that Wangji’s core is strong enough to pull him through. Because the odds of a living, resentful Wangji is better than a dead Wangji.

~They never talk about this. There are a lot of things they don’t talk about.

~Even before, Lan Qiren isn’t a bad parent. He just has no idea how to put his ideas of parenting into practice. He knows what a good parent looks like, he just doesn’t know how to be one.

~So he hides behind the rules because the rules can’t go that wrong, right? Right???

~Lan Qiren is lowkey jealous of Wei Wuxian for knowing how to be affectionate. He definitely thinks Wei Wuxian is too open with his emotions, but he is envious that Wei Wuxian and Wangji are open to each other in a way that Lan Qiren never established with either nephew. They are loyal in the filial manner of juniors to their elders, but Lan Qiren isn’t exactly close to his nephews. 

~In his ongoing attempt to be a better uncle, he ends up getting advice from Wei Wuxian about emotions.

~It’s not like he can go to anyone else. And, well. That congee was really good.

~Turns out Wei Wuxian can brew the perfect pot of tea, too.

~Offensive. That Wei Wuxian is so competent and the least emotionally repressed person in all of Cloud Recesses.

~Eventually, Lan Qiren begins to understand why Wangji is so attached to Wei Wuxian, even if he still can’t stand to be in the same room as Wei Wuxian for longer than 15 minutes. 

~No matter how much he might no longer hate Wei Wuxian, he prefers their interactions in small doses and spaced out.

~But he does learn to bond with Wei Wuxian over cultivation theory. Annoyingly, Wei Wuxian is just too useful to continue to despise.