#the fact that I don't really like Stede and that he continues to be The Worst may be coloring things.

[death-rebirth-senshi]

Whatever I'm done talking about this but just know I stand with Izzy Hands now and forever.

[ladyluscinia]

What Exactly Did David Jenkins Say?

Look, I'm still staunchly of the opinion that Word of God statements and creator interviews are overvalued in fandom, especially when they get pulled out mostly as gotchas without then continuing to analyze whether or not the show canon is successful at getting across that same message. Death of the Author is good, actually, and we should remember that. But they are worth looking at in the context of evaluating intent vs execution, and for future speculation - just, like, please with less of the whole mile high pedestal idolizing and backlash cycles.

But if overvalued "Word of God" is annoying, then overvalued "supposed creator statements that have gone through three rounds of telephone and any given blogger has only heard about a quarter of them, which they'll use confidently anyway" is worse. So, since I'd already looked up interviews for various reasons...

Here is a fairly comprehensive list of interviews David Jenkins has given and statements he's made during them, presented without commentary (save curating which statements get highlighted). All provided with links. I definitely missed some, so if you have any that you want to add, please do - though if you could trim off any commentary and save it for tags / your own post with a link that would be cool.

Also, again, just because he said it doesn't make it incontrovertible canon that only a blind person wouldn't understand. Some of these even arguably contradict each other. The creator's intent doesn't always translate to what the show is doing, nor do you even have to think it was a good idea.

(Listed in chronological order from oldest to newest - post contains spoilers below the cut)

Pre-S1

Gizmodo - Feb 22, 2022 - with Cheryl Eddy (io9) - Link

Why this story - Really, it was the enigma of Stede that drew him in. "I think actual pirate stuff is fine, but it's not necessarily my cup of tea. And I think Taika [Waititi] felt similarly. But hearing about this guy and reading about him and seeing that, you know, he left his family, then he met Blackbeard, they hit it off, and we don't know any of the details in between. So filling those blanks in, and having a very human story, and then being able to do it with the pirate genre, that was like, 'Oh, this would be cool.'"

Post 1x01 - 1x03

Polygon - March 5, 2022 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

About Stede running off to sea - "Stede thought he could outrun his baggage, and you can't outrun your baggage."

About S1 - "I don't think there was enough improv on set! We had an insane schedule, with a huge amount of plot. We were budgeted and designed as a one-hour show, but with a half-hour production schedule, which means we really had to chase these episodes to get them shot. And then there are certain emotional beats that we really needed. So trying to find places to find the fun was hard."

Mashable - Mar 5, 2022 - with Belen Edwards - Link

About the show concept - "It was Jenkins' wife who first told him about Stede's adventures; she thought it would make a good TV show."

On casting Rhys Darby - "Stede did a terrible thing to his family. If you cast it wrong, he's a very hard character to get behind," Jenkins said. "Very quickly, the only person I thought of for this was Rhys [Darby]. He has this childlike quality that's endearing."

About the story - "Seeing them discover a need for each other that neither anticipated and charting how that relationship goes is the meat of the story." + "If you're on this ship, you're running from something, and you're running to something that you can't be on land"

Mentions of matelotage - "In fact, one of Jenkins's favorite pirate facts that he learned while working on Our Flag Means Death was the term matelotage, which was a civil union between same-sex pirates. "The more you look at it," he explained, "the more you write to the fact that this is a queer-positive world.""

Discussing piracy careers - "Something else that astounded Jenkins about pirates was "just how fast it all moved — their lives were quite short," he said. "Your career [in piracy] wasn't very long.""

Post 1x09 - 1x10

Decider - Mar 24, 2022 - with Kayla Cobb - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

Pitch for the show - "That was in the pitch," series creator David Jenkins told Decider. "That was the reason, to make them fall in love with each other."

About the romance - "The main thing to me was to side-step coming out," Jenkins continued. "I just want a romance. I want a Titanic romance between these two people. We don't have to do the coming out story and then the non-binary story for Jim [Vico Ortiz]."

About S2 and the show - "The show is the relationship," Jenkins said. "So, we end in a place where there is this breakup. What happens after a breakup between these two people who, one’s realized he's in love and the other one is hurt in a way that he's never been hurt before? What does that do to each of them in an action, pirate world with them trying to find each other again? So again, I really love those rom-com beats."

Collider - Mar 24, 2022 - with Carly Lane - Link

On making it a romcom - "It's the only reason to make the show. If you didn't do that, it would just be weird. I mean, you're using the rom-com beats. You're using these like they're together. And it's funny because so we're so habituated to be like bromance, bromance, bromance, and it's such a simple move to put them together."

Discusses focusing on romance - "I guess I really... I get kind of bored. How much pirate can you do? They're going to rob stuff. They're going to steal ships. There's only so many pirate stories you can do. So if you're going to do a workplace story, I mean, you're essentially having this... You'd have this same amount of relationships in Grey's Anatomy in the ER. So it's standard. It's the most standard. We're making a soap opera on a pirate ship, and to use those soap opera beats... I like it, and I like the flavor in a comedy when you have something that's played genuinely up against very ridiculous things."

Discusses history and kissing scene

Discusses importance of going home to Mary - "Yeah, that was the problem for me in the story. I knew that I wanted to have the end where he goes home, because you need to give Mary her day in court. I just wanted to know from Mary's perspective what happened and then to see that, yeah, they're friends."

Is Lucius dead? - "You got to wait."

EW.com - Mar 25, 2022 - with Devan Coggan - Link

David Jenkins, Taika Waititi, and Rhys Darby interview

Pitch for the show - "To me, [Stede and Blackbeard's relationship] is the reason to make the show," Jenkins explains. "When Taika and I were first talking about it, he was like, 'Oh yeah, that's the show.' I first started reading about Stede and how he befriended Blackbeard and we don't know why. Very quickly, it was like, 'Oh, it's a romance.'"

Polygon - Mar 25, 2022 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discusses 3-season intent - "I think three seasons is good. I think we could do it in three."

Discusses acts within S1 - "To me, when you see him get stabbed, and the blood runs through his fingers, it’s like 'Oh, no, the clown got stabbed! And not comedy-stabbed, he got stabbed stabbed!' That to me is cool. And then having Blackbeard find him as the end of what would be the first act of our story felt good to me."

Discusses kiss scene filming and the national moment around gay rights

What to focus on a rewatch - "I think Con O'Neill does such a great job. He's such a complex character, and it's such a tortured relationship. And that's a love story too, between him and Blackbeard. It's a very dysfunctional story, but it's fun to watch. Watch that maybe, on a rewatch, looking where their relationship ultimately goes."

TV Insider - Mar 25, 2022 - with Meaghan Darwish - Link

Discusses show pitch - "When I was pitching [the show] to people, I'd be like, 'Okay, so it's about Stede and Blackbeard, and then they hit it off and then they fall in love.' And then people are like, 'Okay, cool,' Jenkins shares. "And then they really fall in love, and become intimately involved."

Discusses historical inspiration

Discusses S2 direction - "But when [Stede] goes to find [Blackbeard], he's gone and his crew's been abandoned. And so watching them try to negotiate that, that's a good rom-com beat," he adds.

The Verge - Apr 15, 2022 - with Charles Pulliam-Moore - Link

Discusses being surprised by queerbaiting legacy - "...part of me knew that, yes, Stede and Ed's romance was going to be real. But one part of me felt like, 'We're going to do this story, and they're going to kiss, and maybe that's not even going to be that big a deal. Maybe it'll just be a blip.'"

Discusses writing romance - "I'd never written a romance before this one, but I think with Ed and Stede, the question's always 'what's the need for each other?'"

Discusses falling in love and Stede's accidental seduction - "It made sense to have that love be almost like a teenage version of falling in love — one with all these intense and conflicting feelings. They're middle-aged, but Stede's young. Ed's young. Emotionally, they're like 16, and they've both got a lot to learn."

Discusses Con O'Neill as Izzy - "He plays an exhausted quality that's really lovely because this character could just be generically evil, and the way Con plays, it is like, he's credible. I believe that he can do some damage if he wanted to. My favorite thing I've seen about the show is somebody saying that Con's playing the only human with a bunch of Muppets. It does feel like that a bit where he's like Charles Grodin in The Great Muppet Caper."

On Izzy being in love with Blackbeard - "I think Izzy's deeply in love with Blackbeard, and it's a very dysfunctional kind of love, and he's like the jilted spouse who's losing his man to fucking Stede Bonnet, and he can't believe this is happening."

Discusses masculinity and piracy as an escape from that

Discusses diversity and trauma based stories - "And the consensus in that very diverse room was that we wanted to show that isn't just wallowing in trauma. We don't have to do a coming out scene or focusing on the trauma of it — not to say that those stories aren’t valid."

Gizmodo - Jun 20, 2022 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Musing on fandom response to the show - "I'm wondering if the fact that because the queerness of this show isn't gaslighting the audience, and isn't a function of wanting to do something, but not being able to produce the results because of network standards. I think we just happened to be in this lucky spot where the show is actually queer… and I do think that people are responding to that."

Comparing fanfiction to writing - "And Con O'Neill's audition was one of those things I would go back to. I would watch that and be like… Oh, right, that's the show. And in a way, you're writing fanfiction for a certain actor and character because you want them to do something, and you're like–" at this point, it must be said, Jenkins let out a maniacal little giggle. He’s just as thrilled to show off Con O'Neill's ability to seem both deeply exhausted and menacing as the rest of the fandom. "And you [as the writer] you're like… And then Izzy does this now."

EW.com - Dec 13, 2022 - with Devan Coggan - Link

Discusses The Chain sequence - "I had initially wanted that end sequence to be like the FBI raid in a mob movie, where the feds come in, and they've got boxes of stuff, and everyone's running, and someone makes a dash for it," Jenkins explains. "So, it's like a mob movie or FBI raid story, and then it's also a story of Stede's lover coming back."

Pre-S2

Collider - Oct 2, 2023 - with Carly Lane - Link

Discusses fan reaction to S1 - "I thought that they'd kiss, and people would be like, 'Oh, cool, cool!' I kind of thought people would know a little bit more [about] where we were going, but then in hindsight, no, people have been hurt and burned on so many other shows and then made to feel silly."

Discusses starting S2 dark - "One of these characters is very, very damaged and has never made himself vulnerable in this way before, and I don't think [he] would react very well to having his heart broken in this way. I don't think it would be cute, and I don't think it would be funny. I think it would be scary as hell to watch a very damaged guy that we've established in Ed, who killed his dad and thinks he's not capable of being loved, deal with rejection and see that Stede really hurt him."

Discusses adding more female characters

Discusses S2 needle drops including "This Woman's Work"

Discusses 3-season arc

Post 2x01 - 2x03

Mashable - Oct 5, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

Discusses fandom response to S1

About the canon gay relationship - "To watch the explosion of enthusiasm around [the kiss] was disorienting, almost," Jenkins said. "I thought people would react to it, but I didn't think the reaction would be that big. And then it was moving, because I didn't realize that this audience felt so unserved in general, as far as storylines go."

Insider - Oct 5, 2023 - with Ayomikun Adekaiyero - Link

Tease on leaning into the Stede / Ed / Izzy love triangle - "I think Izzy, in a certain way, got the worst deal in the first season," the showrunner tells Insider. "He gets jilted and then he still is in spurned spouse territory at the beginning of the second season."

Discusses Izzy's arc - "What is that relationship about? And I think by the end of the season it kind of becomes a little unexpected of who they are to each other and what they mean to each other," he teases

Discusses addition of Zheng - "He likens Zheng's way of pirating to a successful tech startup, compared with the garage sale vibe Stede had going on the Revenge."

Discusses introducing Hornigold - "I thought Hornigold was the most obvious because he was the person who made Blackbeard what he is. And Blackbeard has a father complex, so it's natural that he's going to bring his former captain back," the show creator said. "It's a struggle with him because he and dad figures don't historically do well."

Discusses importance of the mermaid scene

Inverse - Oct 5, 2023 - with Hoai-Tran Bui - Link

Reveals he didn't commit to the romance until shooting 1x06 - "Jenkins always intended his pirate comedy to end with a romance, but he'd envisioned it as an unrequited love. "It was going to be about Stede learning what love is, and Ed making himself vulnerable and getting burned," Jenkins says of his original pitch. But Darby and Waititi's choices in the scene, which they played without diffusing the tenderness with a joke, made him wonder if they could take the show in a new direction."

Discusses mermaid Stede idea from S1 - "We talked about Stede as a mermaid very early on in the writers' room," Jenkins says. "At some point, yeah, I want to see Rhys Darby as a merman." + "They wanted us to come up with a Season 2 pitch during Season 1. And that was one of the ideas we hit on, and I can't quite remember how we got there, but it was us asking, what is a pirate world? Are there mermaids? Is there magic in this show? With pirate stuff, I don’t know that I want there to be magic, but there was a way where it was something really beautiful about a mer-person, and I like the idea that their coming together would have a mythic size to it."

Discusses historical divergence

Discusses matelotage and pirates as weird outsiders

TV Guide - Oct 5, 2023 - with Allison Piccuro - Link

About the shipping culture - "It's the meat of the show, so it's great to have people bought into the central romance. If it were a bromance that we were trying to make look like a romance, that would suck."

Discusses playlists he makes

Discusses opening dream sequence - "I just like that it started with something badass. Stede, Blackbeard, and Izzy are on an arc together. Whether they're in stories together or not, their ultimate arc is together. I think, by the end of this season, the last episode, that first scene will be gratifying. I won't say why, but their fates are tied together."

Discusses Kraken arc - "But I think the thing that's good about this show is that it can go to really sweet comedy land, but I want there to be, like, if someone loses a body part, for instance, they lose a body part. To do justice to the fact that this guy is a killer and a monster, and dealing with heartache that he doesn't know how to deal with, I think you really need to go there."

Discusses Izzy in S2 - "I mean, he's jilted. He had a partnership with Blackbeard, and he knows he can't live up to this person that Blackbeard fell in love with... Who is that guy? What are his hobbies? What does it look like when he's not totally subsumed with his boss's love affair with somebody, and heartbroken?"

On S2 reunion - "The second season is them being a little bit more mature... It's the thing where you're in your 20s or 30s and you're like, "Well, should we move in together?" They have to make up some time because neither of them have been in a functional relationship before."

About genre of pirate stories - "...is a show about multiple relationships. That's what I want to see when I see this show. I don't want to see a bunch of pirate things that I've seen in other things, I'll just go watch another thing if I want to see that. That's not really my thing. I like the genre, but it's a very hard genre to budge. I want to see relationships in a pirate world."

Discusses the A Star is Born aspect of seeking fame / retiring

Mashable - Oct 7, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

About the mermaid scene - "You need something expressive for when they come back together," Jenkins said. "Their reunion moment has to feel big and mythical. This is not a world where mermaids actually exist, but their love for each other has that size that you can get [a mermaid] in there somewhere."

About Kate Bush - "I love Kate Bush, and I love that song, and I know Taika loves that song," Jenkins explained of the choice. "So I wanted to find a place for that song somewhere in the second season."

Polygon - Oct 9, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson & more - Link

Compares S2 and "Golden Age of Piracy" stuff to Westerns, lists 5 he was thinking of - "Every Western that’s good is that story," Jenkins says. "'This way of life we made is coming to an end. It can't last. It's a blip in time. We created this thing because we need it to exist. We're outlaws, and we need a culture that suits us, but it's running out of time.'"

Gizmodo - Oct 9, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Short tease on leaning into the love triangle

About Stede, Edward, and Izzy - "I think the three of them are on an arc together that's pretty inseparable," Jenkins said in an interview with io9. "And to watch Izzy try to process what's happened [in season one]… to watch him kind of grow and figure out what's his own story, if he can separate himself from this kind of toxic relationship, is interesting to me and I think gives him a lot of room for growth."

Post 2x04 - 2x05

IndieWire - Oct 12, 2023 - with Sarah Shachat - Link

Discusses directing and show creation

"The limitations of the show also naturally push it back towards moments with the ensemble and plot problems that it would frankly be irresponsible to tackle if you had a giant budget and a fully working ship-of-the-line to sail and then blow to bits. "That's the fun of the show to us, I think. If you open this up and you're like, unlimited budget, that would be terrible because I think you can get seduced," Jenkins said. "[It could be like,] 'Oh man, it's all leading up to a climatic battle on the sea.' And those things are great. But that’s not this show.""

"The nice thing about that, though, is you get to be the lo-fi show that’s like, 'Hey, we’re making The Muppets.'"

PopSugar - Oct 12, 2023 - with Victoria Edel - Link

About S2 Stede - "I like the idea that he learns and grows and he doesn't just stay a bumbling captain. He might be ridiculous, but he is getting better at it."

Discusses genre challenges - "How do you have a show that's a romance show but it's also a workplace show and they're criminals?"

Discusses Edward's redemption - "But Blackbeard still has to come back and apologize and be part of the community again, and give his little press conference. It was fun for us to look at that in the context of piracy, where they all do terrible things to each other. But even by their standards, what Blackbeard did was a bit much."

Discusses Izzy in S2 - "When Izzy shoots Blackbeard and they all mutiny on him, that's Izzy breaking up with Blackbeard. And they're both having their own journey in the wake of it, and Izzy's having his own redemption arc. He's trying to figure out, "Who am I if I'm not Blackbeard's first mate? Who am I outside of this relationship?"" + "If Stede's Spongebob, he's Squidward. I don't know what that makes Blackbeard. But there's a real pathos to Squidward."

Discusses trauma-based narratives - "As a diverse room in terms of sexuality, socio-economic background, and race, we thought, "Wouldn't it be nice to have a non-trauma-based story for these characters who don't get that historically?""

Variety - Oct 13, 2023 - with Hunter Ingram - Link

Discusses three act structure and making Stede work for a relationship - "The way I like to look at a season is in threes. The end of the first act is when they find each other, and this is the beginning of the second act. They've found each other, but they are pissed. Stede thought it was going to be [Kate Bush's] “This Woman's Work,” but, in reality, it is this headbutt –– literally."

Discusses the central romance - "It was always part of the pitch... that is the reason to make the show. The pirate genre is fun, but I wasn’t dying to make a pirate show. Taika wasn’t dying to make a pirate show. But the thing that was interesting to me was that Stede finds love, and he finds it with Blackbeard."

Discusses 2x04 plot - "This episode is based on a very, very thumbnail sketch of "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?." Anne and Mary are Martha and George, and they are Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton."

Discusses adding historical pirates

Discusses Buttons exit - "I just love the idea of him turning into a bird: I love the idea of Buttons somehow being the one character that is able to figure that out."

Discusses Izzy and the crew's trauma plot - "We liked the idea that there is something about trauma and getting past that trauma, even on a pirate ship. They have been through two very different ways of living and they have to get used to each other again. But it's also a family that was separated, and becoming one family again is painful."

Discusses bringing characters back - "We could bring Calico Jack back, who, if you remember, was hit by a cannonball last season. Anyone who is that fun to play with and wants to keep playing, you always find a way to bring them back."

Polygon - Oct 14, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discusses 3-season arc and how keeping them apart with some plot device was never in the cards - "at the end of the first season, they're 14-year-olds, emotionally. In this season, it's more like they’re in their late 20s."

Discussing New Zealand production and ensemble cast writing - "It's pretty organic, because as we're going through and tracking everybody's journey for the season, we're watching the thing that holds us together — what stage of Stede and Blackbeard's relationship are we in? Because the overarching arc is, are these guys going to learn how to settle into a relationship?"

"The second season is more overtly about romance, and more a relationship story."

Energizing aspect of fan reaction

S3 is about "love is work"

Gizmodo - Oct 16, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

About the story - "I want to see them become a functional couple or fail to become a functional couple," Jenkins said. "Those are the most interesting parts of the show."

Discusses fandom engagement - "...ultimately the writers are also "the fans in the room." He goes on to say that, "We're fans of the world. We're writing fanfic about our own characters, our own worlds… It's paid fanfic, but it's fanfic." He gives another example: "If you're writing a season of Succession, you're writing fanfic Succession. You're just getting paid to do it. We, as writers–" it's clear that he's not just talking about the writers in the writers room, "become fans of the world and we all have things we want to see these characters do. What we do is not that different."

Discusses the A Star is Born aspect of seeking fame / retiring

Discusses Zheng Yi Sao

Villains of the series - There are a lot of new villains this season, but, Jenkins says, ultimately, "the antagonist on this show is normalcy… These pirates have a way of life that they're not finding in normal life. They've found a way to live and support each other and be there for each other. And that's always threatened by these larger, tyrannical forces that want to shut them down."

Post 2x06 - 2x07

Mashable - Oct 19, 2023 - with Belen Edwards - Link

Discussing drag performance in 2x06

"It is nice to see with Izzy's arc, where he finally breaks through whatever he's been doing to himself. He lets himself have that moment, which I just love. It resonates for Izzy, and I think it resonates for Con. Just personally, it made me feel good to see how it turned out."

Consequence - Oct 19, 2023 - with Liz Shannon Miller - Link

Discusses intent for romance - "...telling a love story in a serialized medium like television has its perils, largely because it's tough to know how much you can draw out any unresolved tension. "I think we take it episode by episode and we try to not piss people off in taking too long and doing double beats and triple beats," Jenkins says. "You can only do Will They or Won’t They for so long. Then you have to deepen it.""

Discusses pirate setting - "The emphasis on relationships also fits into the show's high-seas setting, which Jenkins finds similar to post-apocalyptic narratives. "It is a little bit like you're doing Mad Max, except there's relationships," he says. "Stuff's shitty, so you gotta try to find some joy. Of course, people are going to have a need for each other in these extreme circumstances, and I like the idea of these characters finding some level of a healthy relationship in these extreme circumstances.""

Discusses Jim x Archie

Discusses 3-season arc

Polygon - Oct 21, 2023 - with Tasha Robinson - Link

Discussing gender and power dynamics in Jackie x Swede / Zheng x Oluwande / Blackbeard x Stede + A Star is Born aspect

Jim not being jealous of Oluwande - "I think that relationship was always seen in the room as a friend relationship that got romantic."

About adding a villain - "I think a lot of the internal forces in Our Flag are the villains." + "I think this is a story about the age of piracy coming to an end. This way of life is coming to an end. And every Western that's good is that story: This way of life we made is coming to an end, and it can't last. […] I think every story about outlaws is about trying to preserve a way of life against normative forces that are kind of fascistic."

Historical accuracy - "The balance of the show is 90% ignoring history, and then 10%, bring it in, whenever we're like, Ah, gotta move the story forward! Remember, the English are out there, and they're really bad!"

Post 2x08

AV Club - Oct 26, 2023 - with Saloni Gajjar - Link

Killing Izzy was always the plan - "We wanted to show the depth of that character. Izzy is one of my favorites. He's like middle management who is in a sort of love triangle [in season one]."

Discusses how they really wanted the happy ending for S2 - "I think with season one's end, it was a gamble to leave it the way it was. Everybody stomached through it. Now if it turned out they didn't want us to make more, I just didn't want to have another story where the same-sex love story ends in tragedy, unrequited love, or if one or both of them are being punished."

Discusses S2 progressing the 3-season romance - "They’re a couple who is like in their late twenties right now as opposed to being teens at the end of season one." + "It was an interesting tension of, which one gives up their dream? A lot of times in relationships questions can come up, like who is going to give up on their dream to take care of the kids? Obviously, no one wants to, but someone ends up giving up more than they want to at some point. What's wonderful about a mature romance, and what I'd want to see more of in season three, is Ed and Stede making these tough decisions." + progressing past the getting together point

Discusses parallels, Republic of Pirates, and Zheng Yi Sao

Short bit about fan response

Collider - Oct 26, 2023 - with Carly Lane - Link

Discusses Ed leaving fishing - "I like that he had a little prima donna moment where he thought he could go and be a simple man, and then it's revealed that he really isn't a simple man; he's a complicated, fussy, moody guy. No, he's not gonna be able to catch fish for a living. For him to be told that, "At your heart, you're a pirate. You have to go back and do it," he doesn't want that to be true, but it was true."

Discusses Izzy's speech to Ricky - "I wanted to give Izzy a proper eulogy for himself. He gives a eulogy for himself, but it felt true writing it."

Discusses Izzy's death scene - "In a way, it's very much for Ed, that speech. The "we were Blackbeard" is claiming that he is also Blackbeard, that Blackbeard is not just Ed’s creation, and I like that for him, too, because he's worked so hard for that — and then just to say, "You can give it up." There can never be a Blackbeard again as far as Izzy's concerned because he's dying, and they did that together."

Discusses Republic of Pirates / music parallels from premier to finale

Discusses finale wedding - "We knew we wanted a matelotage in the season, which is the real term they had for marrying crew members. And yeah, they've always been in relief to Stede and Ed, and they're a little bit ahead of Stede and Ed in how much they can talk about things. So to have a bunch of family things in the season, like a funeral and a wedding, and have the parents kind of watch the kids sail away, felt right, and all of those things seem to work well together and build on each other."

Discusses retirement ending - "That will-they-or-won't-they is interesting to a point, but the real meat of it is always like, "Can they make the relationship, and can they do better than Anne and Mary?""

"Frenchie's in charge of the Revenge" + teases Stede struggling to give it up

EW.com - Oct 26, 2023 - with Devan Coggan - Link

Discusses Izzy's death and telling Con - "It feels like the logical end of Izzy's arc. It's heartbreaking to me because he's my favorite." + "I told him in the middle of shooting because I didn't want him to find out at the table read, obviously. I also didn't want it to leak. He was lovely about it."

Discusses Izzy's final arc - "You know, I didn't expect him to become kind of a father figure to Ed. I think we hit on that while we were breaking the [final] episode. He's in such a weird position: He's like a jilted lover, and then he's a middle manager who has to work for a terrible boss. He gets thrown away, and then he comes back. He really develops, and he becomes a part of this family. I think the biggest surprise was the extent that he was a mentor to Ed. They were both Blackbeard. They both made Blackbeard happen."

Discusses the happy ending intent - "With this season starting so dark, I kind of wanted to reward them for the work that they've done and the character growth that they've had. I wanted to leave them in a place where they're really going to try and make this work. I don't think it's going to be easy for them, necessarily. They're both still immature."

Discusses the wedding - "We knew we wanted a matelotage in the second season, and pretty quickly we landed on Lucius and Black Pete. It seems like they were ready for that. We made up a ceremony and everything, where they call each other mateys, and it was just fun to make our own version of a pirate wedding ceremony."

Discusses potential S3 and Frenchie's Revenge - "But it felt like a good place to end the second season. It felt like a contrast to the first season. If it turns out we don't make any more, I'm comfortable with that being a resting place."

Variety - Oct 26, 2023 - with Hunter Ingram - Link

S3 endpoint - "I love things in threes," he says. "That first act, second act, third act structure is so satisfying when it is done well, and you don't overstay your welcome. I think this world of the show is a big world, and if the third season is successful, we could go on in a different way. But I think for the story of Stede and Ed, that is a three-season story."

Discusses the draw of a "Golden Age" and it's ending

Talks about father figure Izzy and wanting a real sense of loss - "There is a nice parallel to have Ed treat him so badly at the beginning of the season and then come all the way around to where Izzy is this sort of father figure he doesn’t want to lose — because Ed usually kills his father figures."

Gizmodo - Oct 26, 2023 - with Linda Codega (io9) - Link

Teasing future Izzy - "Jenkins looked slightly sad himself, saying that "Ghosts exist in this world." I told him not to make promises he couldn't keep."

"Jenkins said that he doesn't see Izzy as a pure antagonist in season one because on some level… Izzy was right in his hesitations about Stede."

Discussing Con O'Neill & Rhys Darby acting

Jenkins confirms the season was always 8 episodes due to budget cuts

About S2 finale vs S3 - "The first season ends on such a downer, so it made sense to end the second season in a kinder spot." + "I think there's plenty of story left for season three, but I think that it was important to end this as if it was the end of the show, and on upbeat note and avoid the kind of "kill your gays" trope. I don't want to see Stede and Ed punished for giving it a go. I want to see them really say, 'yeah, we’re going to we're going to try to have a relationship'."

Teases S3 revenge against Ricky and going to the Americas

Vanity Fair - Oct 26, 2023 - with Sarah Catherall - Link

About the ending - "It's bittersweet. There's death and there's the rebirth of Stede and Blackbeard's relationship; there's a funeral, there's a wedding, and the idea that this family is going to keep fighting even as they lose members. And then it's about belonging to something." + "A lot of times, with this narrative of characters, same-sex relationships end on a dour, downbeat note, where one of them dies and it's unrequited or it's unrealized; something horrible happens and they're punished in a way. So it was important to leave it open and a lot more show to go, but also leave it in a place where it's happy."

Discusses Izzy as a mentor / father figure - "We felt like Izzy's story had reached its conclusion, where we put him through enough. And then there was the realization that he is kind of a mentor to Blackbeard and that he is kind of a father figure to Blackbeard." + "And it's also a pirate show, so he's got to die."

Discusses filming challenges - "It's a big show; it's basically a one-hour show that we're doing on a half-hour budget."

Discusses adding Zheng Yi Sao

Is the show a queer romance? - "For this show, it's important to me just to write a really bold-bodied romantic show that happens to be between two characters of the same sex. I think that the story beats don't matter, because if you've been in love and you've been hurt and you met someone you love—hopefully we all know what those feelings are."

Blackbeard's arc in S2 - "...the second season is about Blackbeard's midlife crisis. And then when they both have their midlife crises, they can open a B&B together." + "I don't think Stede and Blackbeard are ready to be married. They're emotionally saying: 'Let's give this a go.'"

Discusses historical piracy as "counterculture" that's been straightwashed and whitewashed

Did he feel responsibility to the fan community? - "As opposed to responsibility, it feels more like relief—that people feel seen and they feel good about it and they liked what we did. And so it feels like, Okay, somebody's out there and wants the show. The makeup of the writers room looks a lot like the makeup of the fan base. So as long as we're true to our stories in the writers room, I think we just feel excited that there's somebody waiting on the other end to enjoy it."

Paste Magazine - Oct 26, 2023 - with Tara Bennett - Link

Discusses whether fandom expectations felt weighty - "I think particularly for this season, that "bury your gays" thing… I didn't want to end on a downbeat for Ed and Stede. We did that in the first season. I like that there's a lot of different flavors. It's even a little melancholy because the Republic of Pirates got blown up. But there's still more good things."

Discusses production and plotting - "I wanted to start at the Republic of Pirates this season and end at the Republic of Pirates. And I knew I wanted the Republic of Pirates to be destroyed, ultimately. Within that, we are making a one-hour show on a half hour budget, on a half hour schedule."

Discusses planning the ending - "In terms of ending this season, it all felt right just in talking through it when we were in the room. It felt pretty intuitive. When you get to the third act of the story, things kind of settle in. There's gonna be a funeral. We always knew we wanted a wedding at the end of the second season. And I knew that I wanted Stede and Ed to start an inn together. So once you have those beats, it's kind of locked in."

Discusses Izzy's arc - "It's kind of a strange arc in that I knew we were going to put him through all these things, and I knew he would ultimately die. But I think him becoming a father figure to Ed in the last episode didn't really dawn on us until we were breaking the last episode. Asking what would this man say to Ed at the end because they've been together through everything? He went from a troubled and downtrodden employee to a jilted lover to a discarded employee, to someone that is just trying to find his footing again—no pun intended—to actually becoming this guy's parental figure on some level. And he's one person who kind of raised Ed right, because Blackbeard usually kills his parental figures. So, it felt right and it felt like that's how the mentor dies. The mentor in a story usually dies in the second act and then our hero has to go on and try to do it without them. It felt like the right journey for Izzy and a gratifying one for Con."

On leaving open for S3 - "I don't think it was a very hard thing to do. I think it was more that I felt a responsibility to leave Ed and Stede in a good place, at least for now. It's not gonna go well. They're not going to run a business well. Ed's too much of a talker. Stede can't focus. It's gonna be challenging."

Vulture - Oct 28, 2023 - with Sophie Brookover - Link

Discussing Izzy as a "father figure" and his S2 send-off being a priority

Meaning of piracy - "...what our pirates stand for is a life of belonging to something larger than they are in the face of a crushing, slightly fascist normalcy."

Re: Con O'Neill & Izzy's death - "I had to tell him about halfway through the season"

Third season about the work of a relationship between still damaged main characters

Discusses middles as about change and transitions, and wanting characters to change instead of reset, have them experience permanent consequences

About the final scene - "...Ed and Stede as the parents kind of watching the kids take the ship. Frenchie's the captain now..."

Objective of the crew - "...have had terrible things happen to them at the hands of colonial forces, so they want some payback. Party, plunder, and payback — the three P's."

Metro Weekly - Nov 1, 2023 - with Randy Shulman - Link

Discusses historical premise of S1 and easing into the romance

Discusses S2 genre - "In the second season, it was great because we know it's a romance and we can lead with that. It's a workplace show essentially. I wanted it to be more in the vein of early episodes of Grey's Anatomy or something where there are all these relationships on those shows. That's what you’re following — relationships and friendships that are taking place in a hospital, procedural. That's Grey's Anatomy. This is less procedural for the pirate stuff — and you need the pirate stuff."

Discusses not being into pirates - "But I'm like you. I'm not a big pirate person. In general, it's a big creaky genre that's hard to budge" + "Pirates of the Caribbean, those movies are great. That's not necessarily what I hunger to see, but in that genre, it's great. You're not going to beat that, especially on something that's lower budget. We've seen a lot of this stuff, so it's fun to take it then and don't do any of that stuff."

Discusses adapting historical piracy - "You don't want to see them punch down. You don't want to see them do terrible things to people who don't deserve it, which is not what they really did. So, in the show's world, I think piracy is like a stand-in for something. I think it's a stand-in for being an iconoclast and an outsider and queer in some ways and just different." + "Yeah, I mean, the British are there to be Stormtroopers, or Nazis in an Indiana Jones movie. I mean, they're in there to die essentially."

Discusses diversity staffing

Discusses performative masculinity

Discusses Izzy's death, happy endings, and openness to S3

[sixstepsaway]

I don't get why people want to pretend Ed wasn't abusive. Why do people insist on making everything into binaries? Yes, Ed has been a victim of abuse. Yes, he has been abusive. Both things can be true. I love him because I think he's in interesting and I understand where his pain is coming from (even if I think S2 was a missed opportunity in terms of character development). But anyway, thank you for writing about this because maybe some folks genuinely don't recognize abusive trends.

I think it has a lot to do with the fandom culture of only being allowed to like "wholesome" ships.

Look at it this way: when season 1 was airing, Ed and Stede were, in fact, very wholesome. Sure, they had some moments of lesser wholesomeness, but overall they were pretty wholesome and sweet and gentle. They were sweet and finding love in middle age and it was adorable. They had a general stamp of fandom approval that they were, in fact, Wholesome And Good To Ship™.

If you look at other fandoms, you'll see a lot of times there's the Good And Acceptable Ship and then there's the Bad Ship (or ships) and the Bad Ship is always slapped with the "oh that's actually incest!" label when they've, idk, grown up together, or "oh it's abusive!" because one of them one time made a bad joke or something, or "power dynamics!" because one is 27 and one is 25 or one is short and the other is tall or whatever, and yeah sometimes the Bad Ship is actually toxic or whatever (which is not a reason to not ship and enjoy it!), but they're put in neat little boxes: Good and Bad.

And for a lot of people, those boxes keep them safe. Last year, someone who was an Izzy Hands fan got doxxed because...? They liked Izzy Hands and shipped him with... I don't know actually. Ed? Stede? It doesn't matter, all I know is they got doxxed.

The side of fandom that thinks you should only ship the Good Ship are toxic and downright dangerous. It's happened again and again in numerous fandoms and just keeps happening.

So when at the end of s1, Ed turned around and cut Izzy's toe off and fed it to him, I think a lot of people panicked because shit, now Ed was Bad too, and if he's Bad then you can't like him or relate to him or ship him with the Good guy of Stede, so what the fuck do you do?

Obvious answer: Blame Izzy. Izzy's already classed as Bad, so put all the responsibility on Izzy for Ed's darkness and then it's safe to ship Ed and Stede again and no one can call you an abuse apologist or whatever for liking them together.

(To be clear: Shipping says nothing about your real morality. This is very clear for many reasons, one of which is... spend thirty seconds watching fans of the Wholesome Ships dox people and abuse people online lol)

So they spent all this time saying Ed was just scared and lashing out, and now s2 has come along and Ed is... well, abusive, canonically.

And for most of us, that doesn't really matter. We can still enjoy Ed and Stede or Ed and Izzy, we can throw ourselves into fanworks and enjoy the show for the things we like, and we can critique the things we have issues with (my problem is not Ed being written as dark and twisty and having a villain arc, my problem is the show writing it badly, exploring it badly, and then handwaving it, because it's shitty writing) and still really enjoy the vibes we got from the show.

But for people who are scared because they spent all this time saying Izzy fans should kill themselves for liking an abuser, well... now they have a choice: either admit Ed is an abuser and admit that liking a character doesn't dictate your irl morality, nor does it say anything about you aside from what you enjoy in fiction, or excuse away his actions, insist he's just a lil meow meow and continue feeling safe in their little bubble.

In a lot of ways I can't blame people for wanting to duck and cover from it. I mean, look at the shit people get for liking characters who aren't perfect, or talking about the imperfections of characters, or just enjoying complex narratives!

But what genuinely concerns me isn't anything to do with the fiction really, it's when people look at Ed's behavior in 2x01 and 2x02 and go, "Nah he's fine," because oh, honey, no, you are making yourself so vulnerable to real life abuse. That is what worries me, which is why I answered that one ask saying Ed wasn't abusive, it felt important to point out why he is.

Anyway, that's what I think is happening here. I think people are just scared that if they admit their fave has multitudes and isn't a perfect character who never does any wrong, they'll get doxxed and abused and harassed online.

I get that.

[ofmdsalt]

i do think it’s funny that the gentlebeardies who proclaim their love for the revenge crew don’t actually talk that much about or create content for the revenge crew. they don’t give a shit about the “boatful of queer poc that Izzy sold out” (LMFAO) unless they can use the crew’s diversity as some kind of moral gotcha. they care about GB because that’s the only thing that matters about the show in their eyes. and it’s so fucking unoriginal!!! just endless regurgitated post about “omg they’re soooo in love~~ and isn’t it great that love conquered all their problems~~!” it’s unoriginal derivative dreck unless they have to invent new ways to lie about how izzy deserves the death penalty.

oh anon you get me

you have no idea how much i hate the diversity of the crew being used as a literal weapon in this fandom when it comes to demonizing izzy and washing Ed and Stede of any of their wrong doings.

im frustrated by the use of the crew in season 2 only because it was so painfully obvious to me that the budget cuts really affected the ensemble. the way the Swede and Buttons were written out of the show felt rushed and like it came out of nowhere, especially as those two characters, felt the 'least' developed out of the rest of them. so giving them both this long winded set up to be written out was too clunky for me.

i miss when Frenchie was singing and strumming along on his lute. i miss when Jim was Jim, because lbr that was Vico in s2. it just felt like Jim wasn't there anymore. i can't say what happened in the writer's room at that time or what sort of material Vico was given or if it skewed more to improve, but a lot of what was established for the characters in s1 was missing for me.

the rhetoric of this being the Ed&Stede show i think did more harm than good. the assertion that the other characters are only here in service of Ed and Stede's development reduces the sense of scale and scope and also agency these characters have.

a lot of the foundational aspects of GB as a ship i think falls a bit too much into fan service. people talk about how revolutionary and groundbreaking the ship is as a cis gay couple on screen. as if it hasn't been seen before. like i didn't get the wow moment of Stede in the mermaid costume as other fans did. Stede's dream at the beginning of season 2 with him killing Izzy and then colliding with Ed in this romantic gesture of love and passion on the beach is straight up fantasy for Stede, but i think fans took the idea of Stede literally killing Izzy a bit too seriously because that is Stede's fantasy. he wanted his reunion with Ed to be simple and understandable. that it was all Izzy's fault when the reality of the situation was so much messier and complicated. like David and the writers were literally telling us that Izzy is not the enemy here because this moment on the beach was pure fantasy. and fantasies can be dangerous

and then the fans said that Izzy deserved it, should have had his second leg shot and amputated, that he deserved to die, that he's still a nuisance even in death despite the fact that he's dead. that is both a master manipulator but also a cringe fail loser incapable of doing anything right. and it's like. okay. you don't seem to understand this character either.

like a lot of the problems in this fandom have existed before and will continue to exist in other iterations. every fandom has its ship wars. every fandom has long ass call out posts about characters they don't like. but let's not pretend this is anything revolutionary

what i've noticed is that this fandom will reach a burnout period and it's probably already upon us. the constant need to be like 'we're trending!!' when all algorithms are dog shit and glitchy as hell doesn't mean anything. plus the fact that there are only two seasons, less BTS content to go around, it's all coming from the same overdrawn well and eventually it will come up empty.

it's okay to step back. it's okay to leave a fandom for a bit and come back to it years down the road. it's okay. but all of this is exhausting

[ellaenchanting]

Hypnovember 2023 Master Post.

This year was my 5th Hypnovember! To be honest, it felt particularly hard-fought since I had a lot of life stuff happening in the background this month. (Nothing traumatic, don't worry.) Still, I managed to write about 10,803 words, record almost 50 minutes of audio, and pay tribute to a lovely friend. I'm likely not doing daily prompts next year but I'm glad I ran this marathon one more time. 5 years is a respectable amount of time to do anything so- I'm proud of myself.

Everything I wrote/created is below! Use these icons to find what looks interesting to you:

Icons- 📰- story 🔊- audio ✅-recommendation list ⭐-Ella's favorites 😍- romantic 🌈- queer 😴- regular ole’ hypnosis 🛀- brainwashing and/or hypnotist in a tub 👻- spooky ❓- bad or reeeally questionable consent  👨‍🔬 -science! 🤪 -crackfic #-#sceneideas 😭-feeeels  🦄 -mythological creatures   🔥 -explicitly sexy  🔁 switchy switches 😵‍ -intelligence play  🫥-amnesia 🏴‍☠️- Our Flag Means Death fanfic ☕- comfort 🤏-tiny fic 💌-poem 🚫- denial or teasing 🪞-autobiographical or contains autobiographical elements 🧲 old timey mesmerism

Day 1: Dazed 🔊⭐😴

File description: One Take Wonder induction designed to remind you that going into trance isn't difficult at all.

It's OK.

Just drift.

Day 2: Brain Drain M/m(/m) 📰 😴 🌈😍 🔁🏴‍☠️☕

Choice quote: "Izzy grinned too, feeling oddly proud to be trusted with this quiet moment. He and Ed had never been conventional. Maybe it was OK that Ed and Stede weren't either."

Day 3: Coils (Author/you) 📰 😴 🤏☕

Choice quote: "When I say 'my words coil around you', it IMPLIES control but what it really gives is permission. "

Day 4: Denial 🔊😴🔥🚫

File description: "Denial. That's it. That's all the description you get."

Fun fact: Unless you want spoilers- then head over here

Day 5: Maid (The author/you) 📰 🤏🛀

Choice Quote: "What if you could clean your home and clean your mind at the same time? "

Day 6: Soul Contract (Being/supplicant) 📰 🤏🦄🤪

Choice quote: "So- you say you'll give me your free will?"

Fun fact: This is secretly Good Omens fanfic about Aziraphale (with the serial numbers filed off).

Day 7: Repetition is Hypnotic 🔊👨‍🔬

File description: "Repetition is Hypnotic- what it says on the tin"

Day 8: Addicted (M/f) 📰 ⭐❓😭🛀🪞

Choice quote: "It felt like being owned. It felt like love. Then just as surely as the flood started- it stopped."

Fun fact: This was NOT a fun story to write, partially because it dug up some of my and my friends' worst experiences. I'm glad it's been helpful for some people who have been in some really bad situations, though- I'm hope I did you all justice. You (and we all) deserve so much more than this.

Day 9: Erased (?/f) 💌🛀

Choice quote: "That had all been/Erased"

Day 10: Confidence (F/f) 📰😴🌈🫥❓😍🤪🧲

Choice quote: "'No,' interrupted the young mesmerist. 'I mean- I know this is quite unusual but- I find myself quite fond of you, Harriet.'

Day 11: Attitude Adjustment/IQ Reduced (M/f) 📰⭐😴😍😵‍#🔥

Choice quote: "'That's good, honey,' he encouraged. 'You don't need to think right now. I've got all your bigger thoughts for safekeeping.'"

Day 12: Hyperfocus (The author/you) 📰😴🤏👨‍🔬

Choice quote: "I know you can focus, but can you HYPERfocus?"

Day 13: Smile (Being/f) 📰🤏👻🦄

Choice quote: "It made her smile."

Day 14: Impossibly Deep (Person/person) 📰🤏❓🛀🫥#

Choice quote: "'Not possible to be this deep, isn't that right?'

'Mmmm not possible. Too deep.'"

Day 15: Shatter 🔊👨‍🔬🛀

File description: Just a quick loopable file with a nice "shatter" mantra

Day 16: Sex Obsessed ✅🌈

Fun fact: Recommendation list of my favorite content from my friend @sex-obsessed-lesbian

Day 17: Corrupted (M/f) 📰⭐🤏❓🔥#

Choice quote: "'I can give you what you want," he said, silkily. "All the submission. All the pleasure. Everything you've been dreaming of...All you need to give me in return,' he continued, 'is your 'no'".

Day 18: Pet 🔊☕😴

File description: I'm a bit sick so- did some nice self hypnosis around the idea of being pet.

Day 19: Elevator (F/f) 📰😴🔁#

Choice quote: "Have you ever ridden the Tower of Terror at Disney World?" Ivy asked.

Day 20: Transformation 🪞⭐

Choice quote: "She didn't know that something could be both campy playacting and extremely real at the same time-the feelings, the bonding, the lingering effects-all of it."

Day 21: Forget 🔊🤪🫥👨‍🔬

File description: "Similar to the style of Samsung's website that helps you forget TV series you've watched, this file is designed to help you forget all of my Hypnovember content for this year- so you can experience it again for the first time!"

Day 22: Hypnotic Hands (F/f) 📰😴#🌈

Choice quote: "But mistress could make anything hypnotic. And today she had made HER hands hypnotic too."

Day 23: ...And Back Down 💌😴😭

Choice quote: "...And back down"

Day 24: Ready to Play (F/m) 📰😴#🪞🛀🚫

Choice quote: "The slight curve of her lip indicated she had something in mind but- had it started?"

Day 25: At Peace (Being/f) 📰🤏👻🦄

Choice quote: "It was useless to fight against it- although in the beginning she had tried."

Day 26: Shadows (F/f) 📰🌈🚫🛀

Choice quote: "Those shadows of her former self were still there- they helped make her who she was now. Who she was now, though, was happy."

Day 27: Shiny (F/m)📰🤏#😴🛀

Choice quote: "The leather boots weren't 'shiny, shiny' like in the song, but it didn't matter. "

Day 28: Workout (F/f) 📰⭐🛀🚫🔥🌈#

Choice quote: "'I'm going to challenge you a bit today, ok?' she says. 'Are you ready for that?'"

Day 29: Wholesome (The author/you) 📰⭐😂😴☕🪞

Choice quote: "It means something to us, and thus it has meaning"

Day 30: You Win (F/nb)📰😂😍😴☕

Choice quote: "'Hmph,' they responded, grumpily. 'I know what you're doing.'"

I'm entirely a hobbyist content creator and work primarily for feedback and belly rubs. :) (I do take tips on Ko-fi though if you're feeling generous!) If you liked anything I made this month, I'd be really really delighted to hear about it. Hell, I'm delighted to hear constructive criticism as well- anything to know this isn't all going to into a void somewhere. Reblogs are also very much appreciated.

That being said- here are a few people in particular I want to thank for your encouragement, your inspiration, your cheerleading, or just generally for helping get me through the month- @thekinkycocktailclub @mentat101posts @jam-and-stuff @linnybeenaughty @sex-obsessed-lesbian @theleeallure @tennfan2 @spiralturquoise @daja-the-hypnokitten @misscammiedawn @royb8772 @hypno-potion @hypno-sandwich @wellgnawed @redriotwest @egur19 @mozart32 @mys-oleander @sleepwithgiggli @telephonetrance @dommestic @subbypuppy (I know I'm leaving a bunch of people off so- I apologize if I am and know I still appreciate you a lot.)

Extra special shoutout to @emptyofbrains2 who has not only given me lots of great feedback but has also written a lot of her own great stuff this past month. Check out her Tumblr if you haven't already!

Stay tuned to this space for- whatever it is the future holds. :) I'm excited- I hope you are too.

Thanks y'all :)

[diamondcitydarlin]

i think probably the worst part of the whole thing is that I just don't really care anymore, the investment I had at the end of season 1 just straight up no longer exists. no, it's not just bc a blorbo got killed off (and there's a lot of reasons to be angry about that), it's mainly bc most of the characters at this point feel like hollow shells of who they were a season ago, including the stede x ed pairing as a whole (which I really just don't care about anymore at all, sorry). and no it's not bc 'Izzy got all the development and there was no time for anyone else' like of course there was time for everyone else, provided that they hadn't opened the season on all those characters making 180 character changes with no real explanation, provided they hadn't overloaded the damn season with nonsense that goes nowhere. JimxOlu was my OTP after StedexEd in season one, both of them were some of my faves, and not only did neither of them even really resemble who they were in s1, their relationship which was of such great importance in the former just suddenly...is something else now. Not people in love, but 'friends who have fucked once lol' and are wingmen for each other now because...??? Oh but Jim's dating Archie who...*checks notes* was in a Snake Cult? I think? That's about all we get on her, apart from the fact that she likes making out with Jim I guess. And I guess Zheng can't just be a powerful woman character that exists in this narrative without a romance of her own, so let's just toss her together with Olu and never explore or explain that with any kind of depth. Jim has neither trust issues anymore nor do they have ANY interest or investment in their revenge scheme or the Siete Gallos (REMEMBER THAT PLOTLINE?? REMEMBER?? APPARENTLY THE WRITERS DON'T) they're just kind of goofy all the time now for no reason. Olu's leadership arc? His being a confidant to Stede? Where the fuck did any of that go? Are they all a polycule or are they all just separate couple friends? IDK WHO CARES THIS IS HOW IT IS NOW I GUESS. Like, why am I supposed to care about any of that? It doesn't even feel like the characters I watched before.

And StedexEd. Jfc there's so much to say that other people have said better but the constant bringing up of conflicts, breakups, and then immediately resolving those issues with heartfelt reunions/kissing as if that's supposed to be sufficient got really old for me after awhile. The lack of explaining how their 'whim-prone' romance to this point was bad, the lack of explaining how they reconcile their different goals was also bad, but oh they can just go RUN AN INN NOW! Yay happily ever after! ????? "Ed, you've got family" which he immediately leaves to go try another life path he's probably going to suck at and hate WOW so romance. Like either figure it out or break up for good, it just makes them an obnoxious toxic couple who never seem to communicate or bother to try but are supposed to be the one we love the most and are rooting for. And that sucks, because I loved them once! GARBAGE!

There's only so much blame one can put on external factors for this. I worked in production once, I edited scripts and was a go-between for notes and writers, and this is the exact kind of thing I would've felt compelled to point out; we only have x amount of time and x amount of episodes to properly tell these stories, we know this, so maybe lets be realistic about what we can fit in here and do justice and what we can't. Maybe let's not just throw every fucking thing we think of at the wall to see what sticks while completely ignoring/retconning character traits and stories we set up in season 1. But nah, that's what happened!

Like, what is there to watch for at this point if s3 gets greenlit? I fail to find anything that I'd care about seeing continued, even the peripheral characters like Frenchie and Wee John and Roach, whom I also loved before and still do but barely did anything, so I guess I can tune in to watch them do more of nothing? Idk man it sucks when it's not just 'wow that was bad I hope next season is better' but instead 'wow that was so boring and incohesive I have no more interest or emotional investment in this to continue'

[sophiasoelberg]

So the symbolism with clothes is INSANE in OFMD.

By Season 2 Episode 6, they're both becoming what the other was. Ed no longer wants to be a pirate because it brought out the brutal, cold blooded part in him that he's been bored of long before he met Stede. But which was a necessity for him to survive, to protect his mother from his father.

Then he met Stede, who was a gentleman, doing and being something Ed has always wanted to be, which is softness. Like the soft, fine fabrics Ed likes, but never really allowed himself to have, only carried the piece of red silk his mother has given him when he was a boy.

Ed only let go of that red silk when him and Stede were apart, because Ed gave up on his newly discovered soft side. He became the Kraken, all hard edges and black leather.

Also, before he let go of the softness with the red silk, he wore Stede's fuchsia robe, which represented the colour entering Stede's life, and by Ed wearing it, he wore Stede's essence, what comforted him as he missed Stede very much. He missed the colour from his life.

Fast forward, in Season 2 after Stede had his first kill, after Ned literally said that if he does it, Stede will become a Real Pirate, Stede looks for comfort with Ed by making love to him. Stede as a pirate who was always scared of the brutality and coldness of masculinity that his father represented to him, I believe.

Yet being a pirate, an infamous one at that, as Stede finds himself suddenly to be, is what he had dreamed about. Which must be conflicting as heck, too. Being something you yearned for, and being accepted for it, which you're not used to, but then that very thing you wanted is also uncomfortable because of the inherent brutality it carries with itself. (Piracy)

Anyway, when Episode 7 starts, Ed throws his leathers into the sea. His things that represent Blackbeard. He gets rid of it after he became intimate with Stede, having taken off Blackbeard, (=his leathers) LITERALLY. This time he's wearing Stede's robe but it's the same dark blue colour as Stede's new "pirate shirt".

Blue is obviously one of Stede's favourite colours, which would symbolise his love for the sea— and Ed wears that. He wears Stede on himself on that Morning After. Ed is trying to find what he can become after he gives up his Blackbeard identity, and what he knows is that he likes fishing and most importantly, loves Stede. He finds comfort in Stede, like Stede does in Ed.

One more interesting thing, since I'm diving into the topic of symbolism with clothes is the fact that there was a huge emphasis on the scene in which Buttons turned into a seagull.

Buttons said: "The sea is my love. To love the sea as she must be loved, requires change."

And Ed: "Buttons, people don't change, not into birds or otherwise." (Just when Ed and Stede's theme starts to play very softly)

But Buttons changes, and Ed is AMAZED by it, and then goes on his own journey to change his ways. So that he can love Stede in a healthy way.

Buttons leaves his clothes behind, and in Episode 7, Ed wears them as he's trying to figure out who he wants to be instead of Blackbeard and instead of a pirate. For me, him wearing Buttons' clothes then means that Edward is finally truly (docked too) ready for change.

But it also means that Buttons is a character who's LITERALLY IN LOVE WITH THE SEA. And in the beginning of Season 2, Stede wore Buttons' cravat. And then Ed wears the rest of Buttons' clothes. Showing that Ed and Stede love the sea.

As of right now, by Episode 7, what they need now, Ed and Stede, is to find a middle ground where both can be who they truly are and continue to balance each other out that way. For Ed to find peace, softness and comfort, (and a fucking INN, give that man what he wants, for whoever's sake—) and for Stede to be who he aspired to be, a pirate, but to also regain his gentleness, because that's a core part of him. That's why Ed loves him.

[kaelyx-zac01]

Okay, I love the second season as much as the next guy. But, I'm still waiting for Stede's development: for his trauma and pain to come up. And I know it will come up, I trust in OFMD show runners on that account. But yeah, as much as we would all love for Blackbeard and Stede to be together, there's just so much unresolved with Stede's character that definitely needs to be dealt with before he and Ed could be in any relationship.

I mean, with Ed, at least we get the gravy basket. He's able to realize that the heart of his self-destructive behavior is his self-hatred and the belief that he's unlovable. At least, we see him trying to work things out about himself and resolve that on his own.

But with Stede? Not so much. His strife and insecurities are very much left in the dark. He was literally burdened by guilt the entire first season. The mix of Chauncey's last words and Mary being happier without him literally hammers the fact that he is unneeded -- a burden to others and a presence who destroys everything he touches. And he's afraid that it's the same with Blackbeard. No wonder he's so frustrated with himself that he doesn't blame anyone else but himself for Ed's "death". Or that he doesn't feel very much like a captain. He still believes that he has to be this masculine ideal to be so.

And yet, Stede remains very much a great leader. Despite his issues, he continues to look out for his crew, even if it meant banishing the man he loves. He gives advice to Lucius. He doesn't lash at his crew, despite them literally murdering Ed. He considers the consent of the crew first before bringing Blackbeard again on board. Not to mention, the literal positive impact Stede has on the crew in general. Because of his influence, they're able to create a safe space for each other. His advice in addressing conflict, of talking things through, echo from the mouth of Izzy Hands himself. And don't even get me started on Stede's impact on Ed -- he literally brings the man from the dead.

It seems the entire crew reflects how much positive things Stede has brought to their life. Of his worth as a person. And yet Stede still doesn't see that. To him, he's a shit captain and person, especially with what he did to Ed. And thus, he tries so much to make amends, it tears at my heart, god.

So, yeah I just want the crew to validate Stede. He tries so hard to be a positive, comforting presence to everyone. But, no one AT ALL has sat with Stede to assure him that he's seen -- that he is worthy as he is. And I really hope we get that -- especially if it's Ed. Gosh, that would triumph all the "You wear fine things well" scenes for me

[fluidfox123]

Izzy Hands is a complex, dynamic, and well-rounded character. The fandom's depiction of making him a flat, simple, all-villain and all-hero character–when it isn't silly-haha and having fun (obviously because me too, girlie, me too)–but as a genuine, serious perspective of his character and his place in the show is something that I would like to point out. 

So, obviously, some of this fandom has strong ass opinions about Izzy Hands, and I have seen so many takes on him, especially with the release of the first season 2 episodes. Now, for those of you who don't know (for any new fans), Izzy Hands is the first mate to Blackbeard's crew and frequently, in season 1, was uptight, persuading Edward Teach to do things he didn't really want to do (Kill Stede Bonnet, act a certain way around the crew, not show weakness, act on another side to him that was present on the Revenge, etc.) 

This has caused a lot of fandom splitting on opinions about him, especially his toxicity to vulnerability when Ed was heartbroken over Stede leaving, Ed and Izzy having more than a captain and first mate relationship, his actions towards the crew, and so on other unpleasant things he's done. This has caused fandom to view him as homophobic (at times internalized), masochistic, an abuser, and villainized. Other parts of the fandom see him as a victim of societal symbolism, a scorned lover (going through a divorce), a one-sided lover, and an actual hero for not only the progression of the story but Ed and Stede's relationship.

A lot of the fandom is insanely split on this, so split I've seen entire arguments about it and people pulling some unbelievable shit over some lil guy in a comedy-emotionally-symbolic pirate show, so I am here to say, very loudly and clearly: Izzy Hands ain't no villain or hero, no abuser or victim. I am here to say he is fucking BOTH simultaneously and that he isn't more of one or the fucking other. He has two hands, and both hold the complex nature of humanity as the beautifully well-rounded character he is. 

To get the ugliest explanation out of the way, the idea of an abuser being a victim and a victim being an abuser is something that, I believe, is something that has to be considered when speaking of Izzy Hands, especially concerning Edward Teach. Like, practically ESSENTIAL, if you want to dive into the meat of their relationship. And I don't just mean that as in, like, "Izzy Hands fucked over Edward emotionally to the point of mentally breaking him and then got physically abused in return by the man he mentally broke with his idiocy," BUT ALSO through the lens of "Edward AND Izzy have spent long years in a hell they can't escape in the line of work they have been forced to stay in, even by those who are supposed to be by their side/society, and in turn twisted the dagger into the stomach of those who placed it on them." 

Now, to clarify, in similar terms, Izzy Hands–someone who is affected by the view of what piracy is supposed to be by literally everyone outside of the Revenge and Blackbeard's ship, as shown in season 1–has abused Edward emotionally, brought upon him ideas that harm him and tear that man apart to the point of feeding into his suicide ideations that have been present from the very beginning. At the same time, Edward has internalized those views and reflected them upon the one who hurt him and others. Izzy Hands and Edward Teach are victims of an idea of what is "right" for them to do, be, and believe, and CONTINUE that cycle by feeding it into the other.

Now, this show isn't the real world, no matter how much you want it to be, so pointing out who is more or not problematic is like looking at a lineup of Hannibal Lecter from multiple types of media and trying to decide who did cannibalism and murder the nicest. They're PIRATES; they KILL people. The fact is that this show uses death and fighting as something that is not serious, goofy even, and injury to the main characters as EMOTIONAL, SYMBOLIC storytelling. Edward getting verbally abused by Izzy Hands daily and Edward choking the man out and taking away his toes and then his fucking leg is on the same level as the storytelling and NOT about one being evil and one being a poor baby. It is simple: they are fucked up guys who hurt one another despite caring for one another. You can find REFLECTIONS of real life in OFMD, but that does not make it real life and should not be treated as such. 

To the "But people don't deserve abuse! You're being an abuser apologist by saying Izzy deserved it!" "Izzy hands brought this on himself and deserves all the physical, emotional, and mental pain, and I hope he dies." I bring you: Izzy is an abuser; the consequences of that abuse broke a man who, in turn, broke him with abuse. It is a cycle, an unhealthy relationship on both sides. No one deserved it, but it happened (is happening even), and what matters is how the show decides to address it. And liking and supporting the prevalence of it on screen to dive into this kind of relationship is not fucking evil. It does not make someone good or bad to explore harsh topics, see them on screen, and enjoy and want MORE of them. 

They are pirates who have been around captains who force-fed crew mates live crabs that ripped through a stomach, watched people burn alive without a second glance, killed their fathers, and threatened each other with guns and weapons on a daily fuckin' basis. This isn't that far-fetched that this would have happened. It doesn't matter who is redeemable; it's about criminals who are fucked up in falling in love and working through issues. And the mere fucked up but REALISTIC SYMBOLISM AND STORYTELLING of Ed and Izzy's relationship brings so much to not only season 1 but their characters and what this means for them in the past and future. In my opinion, it is masterful to see such characters like this on-screen who DO care for each other but can never love each other like they want. Because that's another thing: they truly love each other, and if you want to get deeper into that part of it, I recommend this post I made. 

In summary, this man is the abuser and the abused, and those who refuse to see this are missing the entire part of his character and Ed and Izzy's relationship.

To get to the other point, Izzy is, yes, an abuser and a victim, but at the same time is a fictional being deserving and capable of change, just like every character in the show who is part of the main cast (he is not Big Jack Horner from Puss in Boots, now THAT is an irredeemable character in media done RIGHT). 

People look at Izzy Hands being an asshole and make him a flat-ass villain who is homophobic JUST because he treats the queers on The Revenge like shit and is not deserving of getting the arc he is getting because he wasn't the most pleasant guy in the room is the equivalent of people who took one look at all Izzy's done and thinks Izzy has never done anything wrong in his entire life, everything Izzy has done is justified because he's changed in season 2. And just like I said before, this doesn't apply to the fandom inside jokes. No, when I state these things, it's about people who take it SERIOUSLY. Look at Izzy and GENUINELY THINK IN A VERY REAL, VERY "I WILL FIGHT YOU TO THE DEATH" OPINION ABOUT HIM BEING A VILLIAN OR HERO. Which isn't at all right. He is not at all one or the other; he is just a little guy who plays both roles in-story and out-of-story ways.

He is more than capable of changing, and this is shown in season 1 when he apologized for snapping at Blackbeard over his stress of trying to make sure they survive day to day; he knew he was hurting Edward but was, in fact, doing it to ensure Edward's safety despite how misconstrued it was and still is in season 2 (based on his conversation with Stede in the Captain's Quarters). He is not only protected by the trauma crew on the Revenge but protects them IN RETURN from things that happened off-screen, and those who do not think the end of season 1 Izzy and the beginning of season 2 Izzy match up or are not the same character have missed much context from his past appearances before season 2. And that applies to people who ignore either part of his character, the good or bad.

People who are not redeemable do not apologize for their actions. They do not verbalize and tell people they know they're doing things wrong. These are all signs of a character capable of being self-aware if they choose to. We have seen Izzy Hands choose it between seasons. Just because it wasn't on screen with a neon sign pointing to it doesn't mean it isn't happening and DIDN'T happen. Izzy's reaction to Fang asking what happened to his toe in the library scene isn't how we first interpreted it; it matches the beginning of an abusive cycle we see later. It is a nervous laugh, the settling of something, joy, delight, and fear. Because Izzy was PUT in his place from an idea that Izzy placed in Ed's head. But we know Edward has never been this far gone, so when he continued to be punished, it was no longer a sign of his Blackbeard; that delight vanished and turned to horror and regret and him owning up to his actions. 

Izzy states he and the rest of the crew are WORRIED about him. He cares, and because he doesn't care healthily and cutely doesn't mean he doesn't care because care isn't always pretty and good; it doesn't have to be righteous and morally right. (This applies to Edward and people hating him for his treatment of the crew and Izzy. Everything I have said applies to him as well, just as much. Despite everything, the crew cares about him, but that doesn't mean everything is good and dandy either; it is COMPLEX.) 

Izzy Hands quite LITERALLY has only followed Pirate Protocol this entire time that Edward has followed for years alongside him, and to call him evil and irredeemable is to call Edward the same thing, and to call them both monsters is to miss the entire fuckin point of this show and it's story-telling. 

This is not about what is right and wrong in the lens of real life for every little detail; it is about the right and wrong of love, relationships, and societal expectations upon outsiders and people who don't follow what is expected of them. It is about how each person interprets it and has fun with it, and to make it a battleground is so fuckin sad. I am so sorry you think you must do that and make everything censored and pure when we finally get a show that doesn't queerbait, demonize individuals who usually are, is anti-racist/colonist and doesn't shit on neurodivergent folks.

And last but not least, allow Izzy to be interpreted by fandom as fandom wishes. It's about having fun, so have fun with him while RESPECTING his character and your fellow fans! See him as a masochist? Don't equalize his abuse and victim moments as masochism because abuse does not equal masochism in any form. See him as an antagonist? Hell, yeah, give the bad sides of him some love! See him as a protagonist? Awesome, feed into those positive points! But in no fuckin world is there a reason to attack one another over this little fictional man who is literally nothing like his real counterpart. In summary, everyone's opinion is valid, and if you don't like something, don't interact, and not everything that makes you uncomfortable is evil. 

[tonsoffuckinsequins]

Ofmd s2 thoughts that only matter to me:

The mermaid scene was one of my favorites. If there was a "The Chain" scene in this season, to me this was it. The music choice was beautiful, appropriate, and memorable. The line of "I know you have a little life in you yet, I know you have a lot of strength left" in Kate Bush's "This Woman's Work" fit the moment really well. Ed has things he needs to live for and accomplish, not the least of which is his love for Stede and growing past their miscommunication and shared self esteem issues.

However, it's sad to see that moment exist in the same season that has Izzy Hands saying "I want to go" and then dying from a wound that, for all intents and purposes for the rest of the show and characters, is 100% survivable. Izzy ALSO had just made a lot of self discovery, and his you don't even really get to see. He ALSO had a lot of things to accomplish still in his arc and growth. He ALSO "had a little life in [him] yet", and his capability to go on without living under Blackbeard would have been essential to the progress for BOTH characters.

The strength of "The Chain" as a moment and as a song choice stands out in the series because the song ties in thematically. "If you don't love me now, you will never love me again" . Ed comes back to Stede to find that he's thrilled to receive him. Stede does love him then, even if Ed feels like he just showed him some of his worst tendencies. This sets the stage for the telling of their love story, and why it makes sense that Ed is absolutely gutted at the perceived reversal of this acceptance when Stede leaves. Additionally, it could be argued that the same line works for Ed/Izzy, as Izzy's betrayal indicates that their relationship, if it ever existed even in a fucked up way, is really over. Izzy DIDN'T love him then, and never will again, at least not in the same way. Their relationship is irrevocably damaged, even if circumstances cause it to continue.

So to have "I know you have a little life in you yet, I know you have a lot of strength left" disregarded thematically is a poor choice for a show that was able to effectively utilize symbolism, music choices, and very selective dialogue and framing to tell a powerful story in a short runtime in s1. It actually could have been a strong moment in a season that ostensibly is about transformation/transmogrification if Izzy had ALSO been able to live, grow, and change. The fact that Stede is transformed into a mermaid during this scene only enhances that theme for the season, as does Buttons' transformation into a bird. Izzy was already on his way with the unicorn leg, his relationship with Blackbeard/Ed needed to change, too, just as much as Ed's internal struggle with Blackbeard (which by the end was also weak, but that's another post).

Perhaps the transmogrified Buttons landing on Izzy's grave is meant to indicate that his transformation is over and complete, but this is contradictory to the reliance on lyrics and music as a means to support the storytelling that occurred in s1 so would be weaker overall. "I know you have a little life in you yet" is contradictory to an arc that completed growth with death.

Basically, the elements to the same strong storytelling that existed in s1 were there, just not utilized effectively, which is disappointing to see.

[uselessheretic]

sorry if this is out of left field, but i’ve been thinking abt it for a while…i would consider myself a passive izzy enjoyer and i am not at all an “izzy loved the toe cutting” person, /however/, I feel like you (the general you, not you specifically) can’t deny that he was happy about it after the fact? like the next day the “blackbeard is himself again” line he is definitely jazzed abt that and part of the demonstration that blackbeard is himself is the toe mutilation

also i’ve been wanting to ask more active izzy lovers/supporters, again i enjoy the man and am interested to see where his story goes but i will never ever forgive him for what he did to ed when he was trying to heal, is that something izzy stans don’t think about? don’t care about? take it as a given that everyone agrees was fucked up it so it just never gets brought up? sorry i’m not trying to put you in any specific group if you don’t want to be or assume where you stand but i enjoy reading your meta so was interested if you had any thoughts about it

i feel like a lot of it is up to interpretation! there's not generally one opinion held on things, and i've seen different ways people have read those scenes.

i know that i've seen quite a few people challenge the idea that izzy is "happy" when he does his "blackbeard is himself again" but it's really just how you read it. when you look at how he smiles there, it feels kinda? off?? forced. honestly, i don't think he's actually glad about it, but i also don't think izzy is aware that he's not. i feel like a lot of his emotions ep10 is very mixed up and muddy where he's largely acting from an emotional place while not even knowing what that place is. whether he's actually glad in the moment is something you can read multiple ways imo, but i do feel like even if read as "he's happy this happened" most izzy people would still be like "but that's not gonna last." what izzy thinks he wants isn't in line with what he actually wants, and i expect that to come to a head in s2 as izzy's forced to address the actual root of his issues surrounding ed.

as for the being cruel to ed when ed's sad, again, i just think that's up to the fan. one place izzy stans defs differ is that the majority of them don't view whatever ed was doing as healing. i think it's a mixed bag personally, where ed's first reaction to heartbreak of doing things like reaching out to lucius is good! but it's not perfect where he really comes off like the drunk girl crying in the bathroom when singing his song to the crew. it's definitely better than the fucking kraken though lol but even with ed's song you can see how his interpretation of lucius' "let go and be born again" goes a bit over his head and straight back into suicide ideation. the talent show and the crew's agreement towards it feels kinda like damage control, and another continuation of ed being avoidant to his actual issues. he never actually mentions stede during this time and the first time his name comes up is with izzy who's being an absolute cunt, but it evokes a strong reaction from ed. i don't think ed would be happy if anybody mentioned stede.

in general though, i feel like it is kinda taken as a given that izzy's actions were fucked up, but that it's not on the same level as the way people in fandom talk about it. izzy was being purposefully cruel. he was trying to hurt ed. there can be some reasoning behind it, about whether ed's behavior is threatening their lives or that izzy's acting out from feeling abandoned yadda yadda yadda, but it doesn't excuse it anymore so than it excuses ed's actions in retaliation.

the show is about imperfect people where characters like stede and ed in another show would be straight up villains. stede's literally a deadbeat dad who abandoned his family. if this story was from alma's pov we'd want him dead. ed made fang kill his dog! that on its own is almost always considered an irredeemable offense that automatically excludes a character from redemption, but it doesn't in ofmd. izzy's actions are bad, but they're no worse than stede or ed's. i feel like fans just take it as another continuation of how fucked up ed and izzy's relationship is where you can see the way that they escalate throughout the season dragging each other down deeper.

there's no need to justify it or defend it because why would there be? he fucked up and was a dick. for a lot of izzy stans, that doesn't exclude him from sympathy though. it's just adding flavor to the everything bagel of their cringefail marriage.

[starbramble]

Saw the finale and while narratively I don't have a problem with anything that happened, I do think that the pacing and what they chose to show/focus on was ?????????

unfocused spoilery rambles under the cut

Standard caveat of this is all just my opinion ymmv and all that,

- reunion was really cute but then we dont see Ed and Stede talk about Piracy vs Retirement or any of their issues at all???

- I mean the pacing of Izzy's arc has been wild to me anyway this season but it feels weird for him to get *both* character development and a tragic death?? and the timing/pacing of it felt really rushed. (for context Character death in stories doesnt tend to bother me as long as it serves a purpose, but the themes of this felt a bit all over the place for me. I also completely understand why people would find his death increadibly upsetting)

- Izzy's speeches were nice but didn't neccessarily feel like they lined up with what we've seen on the show for me tbh (also love ed but lol at the idea that the crew like him more than izzy this season)

-in general S1 izzy and S2 izzy feel like different characters to me and it feels like this death scene was written for S1 izzy not S2 izzy if that makes sense?

- Good for Jackie getting to poison everyone but neither stede, ed or zheng really having much interaction with Ricky at the end felt like a missed oppourtunity. though I suppose that could work with the fact that there was not meant to be an external villlain this season, but then the characters internal problems were kind of brushed over anyway???

- honestly love Zheng and Stedes interaction though, his bumbling managing to keep her alive juuussttt long enough for her to get out of her depression moment and do all the work herself 😂 he truly is most useful as a little pirate mascot.

Tinhat theory here but it kind of felt like maybe this season was originally going to end with Ed and Stede split up again but the writers/ showrunner didn't want to risk not getting renewed and leaving them in a bad place?

Double tin hat theory - Izzy is chilling in the gravybasket with buttons and will show up next season as a ghost/dream/hallucination (or hell just straight up come back, I mean if Ed can do it after being beaten to death 😂 )

good for lucius and pete :)

Glad Auntie is alive but RIP to every other Chinese pirate I guess, also all of Jackie's other husbands????? ( also lol at the long continuing narrative condition of having a side character who has objectively lost a lot more people comfort a main character over another main characters death (star wars im looking at you))

Anyway just my ramblings after having first seen the episode would love to hear other peoples thoughts.

[jellybeanium124]

I don't know who you were talking about so I could be wrong, but I think that those "people who talk about Ed stans like they're a problem" most likely are not referring to all the people who like/love Ed but specifically to those you talk about in the post that in order to discredit Izzy at all costs they only see him as someone who exists to further Ed and Stede's character development. Apart from that, this way to see "non protagonist" characters sadden me… If they weren't also important why do Jenkins spent time on Jim's story, on Lucius and the others? Just to fill and make the episodes longer?? D:

I disagree with people who think "ed stans" are a problem in the fandom, especially when people think they're an equivalent problem to the canyon. no they're not. there is at least one guy on """my side""" of things that I find really annoying, and I've definitely seen takes from other people out in the open (aka not in the canyon) that I don't like. but you cannot call the issues equal.

first of all, I've never seen "ed stans" the way izzy people talk about them. granted, I don't go into the tags. I can't say I've seen everything. but like, if you have 2 groups, and the 2 groups don't like each other, they tend to exaggerate and make up shit about the other group to continue the antagonizing relationship. ngl I've seen it on """my side""" too. I have seen some canyon takes first-hand. I'll occasionally scroll down their blogs out of curiosity. there's varying levels of canyon-ness. and people on """my side""" have sometimes exaggerated things or made it out to be that everyone in the canyon thinks this versus it just being one dumb fuck's take. we see the canyon as a monolith but it really isn't, same way we aren't a monolith. anyways, long story short, you cannot call these two groups equally bad because of the canyon's obvious racism problem. this was just a long-winded way of getting to the fact that izzy stans and the canyon have a racism problem.

I'm not saying """my side""" is perfect, nor am I the person to discuss that in depth because I am not a person of color. I'm just saying that the canyon is continuing to perpetuate racist tropes in fic and art after literal years of fans of color discussing how these things are racist. stede and/or izzy having to teach ed how to bathe/take care of his hair immediately comes to mind, for example. writing ed as uniquely violent, and responding to feeling threatened with gratuitous violence instead of hiding and curling up into a ball. continuing to reference slavery in their fics.

why don't "ed stans" talk about how ed did bad shit more? because the canyon won't shut the fuck up about it! I think having a frank and productive discussion surrounding ed's actions in 2x01-2x02, as well as a bit of 1x10 is impossible in any sort of public space, and could only happen in a private discord server. I don't think there's anyone who seriously believes ed did nothing he had to apologize for. he did do horrible things. he did have to earn the crew's trust back. the show did really, really rush through it due to The Shortening. but we don't talk about it because we're too busy trying to counter canyon takes.

I do agree with you on that last bit. I am not inclined to view any sentient character in any story merely as a plot device for the protagonist(s). it's just not a method of literary analysis that I particularly jive with. symbolism is cool, and obviously it should be discussed, but at the end of the day, I view characters as people within their own universe, not objects within their own universe, regardless of their importance to the narrative. take jack, for example. one of the most plot-devicey characters in the show. but I still prefer to, and find it more interesting to, see him as a person within the world of the show rather, than a plot device puppet. my point with the post was I see people arguing that izzy's side-characterness makes him less of a person inside the world of the show than stede and ed, but never ever apply that line of thinking to any other side character, and I find it reactionary and hypocritical. now, if you view all the side characters as plot devices, then you're being consistent, and while I don't agree with you, I don't particularly care, and I think that's fine.

[naranjapetrificada]

trying to find ways to make a canonically gay character seem creepy or predatory in a narrative that is not subtle about when a character is suppose to be seen as scary or abusive is actually pretty homophobic. You really should do some self reflection and work on yourself.

Answering this anon is probably a waste of time but my impulse control is low this evening so:

I literally reblogged the post in question elaborating on the fact that I was talking about the situation, not the character, and that the problem with Izzy's arc for some people is that the narrative keeps putting him in situations that don't emotionally land because there's something missing that could have sold it better.

I don't love or hate your little guy because I don't personalize him the way y'all do. He exists to me as a storytelling tool, not a person. I wasn't calling Izzy creepy because I wasn't even thinking about it that zoomed in, I was talking about the way the situation might strike people (like it did me) as uncomfortable because the narrative hadn't convinced me yet.

Maybe it convinced you and if so, great. But in the absence of more development (mostly due to not having time) the emotional alchemy of the scene didn't work for me. And there's so much about that scene (the lighting, the distance between Stede and Ed, the acting choices, etc) that's actually meant to be uncomfortable upon reflection, even before Izzy showed up.

I continue to be perplexed by Izzy enjoyers who don't seem to mind the jankiness of his arc, but I don't suppose I'll ever understand. If my favorite character had an arc that looked like this I would have a lot of the same questions I do now though.

[izzyspussy]

Happy new year Jack! I'm extremely glad that we became friends and I hope we can continue to be insane and also the most galaxy brained fuckers on this site in 2023.

Question: any spare ed/stede/jack/izzy thoughts? ~ cris

UWU!!!!!!!! I am glad we became friends also and I'm looking forward to season 2 in part specifically so that you and I can Make Posts.

My main thought about this is "God I wish that Jack was me",

[slight undertones of abuse. i GUESS.]

Hot take but among these four, Jack is the only one who isn't certifiably nuts. He's just drunk and an asshole and has some feelings he's pretending he doesn't, but other than that he's completely sane. However. Being a drunk asshole with buried feelings, he absolutely relishes in the other three's various insanities.

He doesn't really get jealous. He occasionally gets ornery and behaves in a "if I can't have it no one can" manner, but that only applies when he in fact does not have it. On the other hand he thinks it's extremely funny when the other three do get jealous, and so he often orchestrates scenarios that will send them into possessive conniptions.

He especially likes making Ed jealous, because Ed is the most volatile, and also because usually getting Ed jealous results in Izzy having some problems lmfaooooo. If ever there were sister wives that actually acted like siblings, it's Jack and Izzy. Jack is constantly getting Izzy in trouble on purpose and playing the equivalent of "I'm not touching youuuuu" in every context possible. Having Jack in the relationship results in an exponential increase of Ed shouting, "I DON'T CARE WHO STARTED IT." (It was Jack. Jack started it.)

Jack also has a lot of fun making Stede jealous, because Stede is unpredictable - or at least unpredictable to Jack, so far. Also it's totally thrilling to get Stede to be possessive over Ed specifically, because Stede is the only one who can get Ed "in trouble" the way Ed gets Izzy. (Jack can make Ed feel bad, and he can top him to high fucking heaven, but it's not the same.)

Of course, Jack also loves to make Izzy jealous just because he loves to see Izzy get upset aksjflkasfkks. He particularly likes to make Izzy jealous over him, because Izzy hates that he gives a shit about Jack. It's also really fun because since once Ed has literally any emotional vulnerability in a situation whatsoever he's extremely easy to manipulate, and Stede is so self-centered and oblivious, neither of them almost ever realize that Jack instigated whatever. But (not often, but sometimes) Izzy does, and he always tries to get Jack back. But first of all, as I said Jack doesn't really get jealous. And secondly, Izzy comically sucks at it lmfao. (And more often than not, Izzy's attempts to make Jack jealous will actually end up making Ed or Stede jealous, so basically he did Jack's work for him alskfjh RIP.)

On the extraordinarily rare occasion that Izzy (or Ed, though Jack can't get this way with Stede because Stede's aura of prissiness is impregnable) does manage to make Jack jealous, Jack gets even more unhinged than Ed. Full on NOT safe, NOT sane, BARELY consensual type shit. After Ed comes back from being the kraken, making Jack jealous is the only way Izzy can get scared sexually/domestically anymore because actual healthy play doesn't do it for him. (In a modern AU, he'd be the type of guy who is bored by horror movies and finds rollercoasters pleasant enough, but one of those you pay a guy to fake kidnap somebody things would be a great anniversary gift for him laskfks.) Anyway so half of the flogging scars on Izzy's back are from working in service and/or the Navy, and the other half are from Jack. (To be clear, Ed has whipped him before, but he never left any scars. Not that way, anyway.)

Dovetailing away from jealousy a little bit, the only one of the three of them that can manipulate Jack is Stede. Jack is always fully aware Stede is manipulating him when Stede does it, and Stede knows Jack knows, but Stede has so much pent up rage he'd never consider taking out on Ed and is scared of overdoing it with Izzy, and he's so good at that Massive Aggression, and Jack is so into a) power and b) an immoral bastard that he lets it work anyway. And also sometimes he just wants to see what Stede is going to do. And I think it's fair to say Jack canonically does not have much of a self preservation instinct, or at least not one that outweighs his bullshit. So if the only way to find out what the worst thing Stede will do is to suffer it himself, Jack will gladly take it.

Dovetailing back into jealousy, one such time Stede did this was like. Ed, Stede, and Izzy all have permanent marks on each other from each of the others. Jack only has permanent marks from Ed, from back before Ed and Izzy even met, and it's only a few stupid little not particularly significant tattoos and one (1) bite mark that scarred. (And maybe those burns are technically Ed's fault, but Ed doesn't want credit for them in such a bad way that even Jack won't attribute them to him out loud, though he does often think of them that way and likes it.)

So anyway Stede is like well Jack you have to let Izzy and I hurt you real bad some way that will last forever or you aren't really a part of this relationship. And Jack is like you fucking rat bastard that's so obvious. And Stede is like I know and you're going to do it anyway, or you aren't really a part of this relationship. All steel-eyed and snooty and shit. And Jack is like well damn when you put it that way.

So Stede either cuts Jack up a little bit or brands him, and then Izzy is expected to do the same and he's thrilled with this but also the entire time his heart is pounding and he's like Is This Allowed. Is This Allowed. Is This Allowed. Honestly, harkening back to the last ask I answered from you, Izzy probably cuts Jack even if Stede branded him, and it completely goes to his head and he loses all capability of higher thought and just starts drinking Jack's blood like a freak, and Jack laughs at him but lets him do it, and Stede pets Izzy's hair and gives Jack a smug look over his head that is also a threat(/promise).

Anyway. This got away from me a little bit. I may be horny.

[chocolatepot]

Anon, it really doesn't matter if you write something and it gets jossed. It happens. It happens all the time.

Before the second season of Our Flag Means Death came out, we were all (hyperbolic) writing fics about Ed and Stede reuniting, since they ended the season separated. None of us were right about how it would happen. The fics are still good, still worth reading, because their quality wasn't predicated on their predictions - and they were especially good when canon was still open there and we had no idea what would happen! And nobody has gone back to nitpick. In fact, people continue to read my older fics and to leave kudos and nice comments on them.

Also, even if a character gets a redemption arc, they still did whatever it was that they did earlier. It would be totally unreasonable for people to expect them to be retroactively redeemed in fic. To use OFMD as an example again, I used Izzy Hands as anything from "kind of a dick" to "full-blown villain" over the past year. New canon in October had him learn to be a better person. If I write fic set during s1 or an AU that parallels s1, he's still going to be a dick and still going to work against Ed and Stede.

With your point about writing a ship you might come to dislike ... That seems a bit like the sunk cost fallacy? If you put in the time to write a fic that you like for a ship that you like, that's the cost. It doesn't mean you have to continue to put emotional effort into the ship or the fic for it. The fic is done and gone. You could apply the logic of "what if I don't like X afterward, even though I enjoyed it at the time?" to soooo many things and it's not worthwhile.

i've usually been in fandoms where the series (or movie, whatever media) has been over for a while, but my current fandom is still ongoing. i'm nervous about writing fanfic for this fandom, since the canon isn't "solid" yet. good characters could turn out terrible, scenes can change entire perceptions and perspectives, stuff like that makes me nervous about writing fic. i don't want to villainize a character that turns out to get a redemption arc, i don't want to write a ship fic about a ship i might end up hating later. idk if i'm explaining this right. essentially, writing fic about a fandom with an ongoing canon makes me nervous, but i want to write for this fandom. what do i do?

Remember that posting a work to AO3 comes with a built in date stamp. It'll be clear to anyone reading the story a year from now or two years from now that you wrote it at a certain point in canon.

If you enjoy writing canon compliant fics, you can even add a tag like "post-ep for s02e04" or "missing moment from s01e12" or whatever it might be. You could provide that content in an author's note or your summary instead, if you prefer.

A lot of fic is written while canon is still up in the air and people are used to things changing. If you write for a ship you end up hating, you can always delete the fic later or orphan it if you want folks to still have access to it but remove your own name. You can villainize a character in one story and proclaim them heroic in another. Unless you put your work into a series, there's no need for every story you write to follow on from each other. Each one can be an independent world all on its own.

And that raises another point: write AUs. You don't have to stick to canon compliant works if that stresses you out. An AU can be as simple as "everything is the same, but these characters met before canon started" and as complex as "these people are now aliens living on a different planet".

Will there be people who point out canon inconsistencies when they read your fic years later? Sure. It's happened to me. But at the same time, they were reading my fic years later. That's a compliment in and of itself.

What do the rest of you think? Have you had to deal with these worries before? How did you manage it?