#the conversation between them and Laudna was the only one I felt good about

[definitely-not-a-wasp]

I think I’ve put a finger on what upset me so much about e78, and it’s that after a week of people talking about how Ashton is going to come back surrounded by friends and realize that they’re only alive because their friends love them, nearly every conversation in that episode that I listened to (and I admit that I was in and out of this episode) gave the impression that Bell’s Hells love for Ashton is very conditional, and cemented that it’s possible to hold love over Ashton’s head like a threat, whether Hells mean to or not. And I know that a lot of people managed to find good things in those conversations, and some of what they said were necessary to say, but I cannot get over how much of it boiled down to “you’re bad and selfish because your passive suicide attempt hurt us” and “if you slip again you need to leave”. And that isn’t love.

[sourslip]

I'm still reeling from that reveal/scene (like most of us, apparently) so bear with the chewing-on-glass scatterbrain but I think the surprise has actually made me appreciate Laura's RP choices even more

going into that scene set up my expectations for some comforting, maybe some discussion of what Laudna was going through post-party split, but overall I was expecting - at most - some cute and friendly intimacy reaffirming they are Very Good Friends

AND THEN ITS LAURA BAILEY WITH THE CHAIR!!!

"Can I kiss you?" felt like it came on so fast without any specific queues (like what we've seen in previous romances where one or both PCs will name their desires in conversation with someone else before acting on it) but it also made perfect sense in retrospect

ever since Laudna came back, Imogen has been sitting on something, always seeming to hold back some burning comments here and there. she was also insistent that Laudna would get to choose everything going forward, and part of that I think meant Laudna having the freedom to think on a response to any question of further intimacy without even a chance of Imogen overhearing. Laudna could have the freedom to wonder if she did want to get in touch with "that part of her mind", to think about how painful, scary, or awkward that might be after decades of being shut off to it.

Laudna has some pretty intense self-image and self-worth issues to work through, but she's also had 2 years of Imogen in her head able to pick up on her wants without having to ever voice them and, ultimately, without having to accept that she does have her own wants independent of the people around her. Laudna seems to have only just started to get in touch with her anger, and that kind of repressed emotion that comes out in the healing process is one of the less intentional ones! Girl hasn't felt safe enough to actually think about her wants, let alone try communicating them!

Imogen and Laudna reconnected after their time apart and discovered that they - as Marisha pointed out in 4SD - have grown into different people, and that resulted in the tension of the first moments in the scene where they kind of made quasi-small talk. They were figuring out how to connect with each other again but, rather than return to their old dynamics (that kept them stagnant), Imogen set them up to try exploring something new and maybe a little healthier with communication going forward.

I think Imogen has been working towards this for a while, and while the circlet was the last "thing" she needed to help force them to communicate better, having the time apart gave them an opportunity to try something new.

Imogen has held a lot back before because she's too tuned into other peoples thoughts, and Laudna held off exploring her own wants and desires for too many reasons - but she is starting to get more in touch with her self-interested emotions. So they've both been tip-toeing towards a change for a while, but change like that can sometimes be like getting into cold water; at a certain point you just have to commit and jump in the rest of the way.

So to me, not only was Imogen trying to give Laudna the freedom to make her decision without an audience (the talk about the circlet), but she also made the most of the new distance between them to push them both towards a change, one that challenged both of them to be more honest with themselves, each other, and about what they want from their relationship.

Laura Ultimate-Romancer Bailey everyone

[utilitycaster]

Do you think that Laura and Marisha are deliberately making their relationship somewhat toxic and unsustainable or do you think they see the relationship as healthy? It is just so different from all of the other relationships they have been a part of and not really in a good way. Would love to get your perspective on it if you have one

I am honestly unsure. I would like to say it's deliberate. Prior to it becoming canon, in fact, I, and a lot of other people who were less than enthused by Imogen and Laudna's romance and weren't entirely sold from the start, made the case that we expected they would be talking to each other and would put together a compelling story, not the dull fluff so common in fanon. While whether it's compelling is a subjective judgment, we know for a fact they didn't talk to each other. We know for a fact Marisha was surprised by the question of "Can I kiss you," and Laura was surprised by the answer. We know from a 4SD not long after (4SD #16, Kiss and Tell) that several episodes later they still hadn't talked. We know that Marisha perceives Laudna as holding Imogen back (and that Laudna perceives herself as doing so) from the Rose City Q&A. We know that from 4SD #20 (Episode Twenty) that Laura doesn't like conflict in narrative and Marisha does, and that Laura was thrown by Laudna's regression following Ashton's attempt to absorb the shard (4SD #19, Shard Candy).

I don't know if it's deliberate or not; I don't have any extra insight that isn't public knowledge any fan can easily access. But man, it doesn't feel like these are two actors on the same page about what's going on.

I've touched on this before but mostly in tags or whisper posts but I've always felt ill at ease with a number of for lack of a better term "fandom-approved opinions" and one of the ones that has baffled me the most is this idea that Marisha and Laura have exceptional chemistry. I watched Campaign 1 knowing the endgame ships but deliberately avoiding the fandom, and Vex and Keyleth did not even once occur to me as a thing. I watched the first year of Campaign 2 without a ton of fandom interaction because I was avoiding additional C1 spoilers and it seemed crystal clear that the obvious ship was Beau and Yasha; it felt like Beau and Jester only even had enough potential for me to multiship it as my general "whomever Jester picks" for like, 30 episodes. And yet people - people who didn't even ship either of the above ships and in some cases disliked them- would just say "oh man I can't wait until we get to a campaign where we can finally explore Marisha and Laura's incredible chemistry!" and it's like. I feel like I'm the kid in the Emperor's New Clothes on this! I understand that chemistry is to an extent a matter of taste and subjectivity, but it just increasingly feels like people looked at two campaigns of tables where Ashley was frequently absent and said "well, if I want an F/F ship that's between two of the women in the cast, I guess this is what I have to work with" and repeated to themselves that a flat pamplemousse La Croix was a Piña Colada until they started to believe it. I mean if someone wants to explain it to me in good faith I suppose be my guest and I will try to take it in, but it feels like people just treat this as incontrovertible fact and if you doubt it they're like "don't you have eyes" and it's like, well, pretend I don't. Explain like I'm eyeless and five because I have never understood this. They both have more chemistry with every single other cast member; it's not all romantic but man, I didn't even buy Laudna and Imogen as platonic best friends of two years. I have never had this problem with any other pre-existing character relationships Marisha and Laura have played, platonic or otherwise. It's literally just them. I just never feel like they're quite on the same page.

Back to the relationship between Imogen and Laudna onscreen, this was easily the best conversation since the start of the gnarlrock fight, and it is my hope it doesn't fizzle out the way that did. You can't keep kissing Laudna whenever she fears she's lost forever to Delilah, Imogen. Or you can, but that won't fix the problem. Again: are you disgusted? Do you feel betrayed? If you're not, why did you say that? If you are, how will you move past it? Do you want to be with someone who never feels like they're good enough for you? Laudna, do you want to be with someone who, no matter what they say, you feel you're holding back?

Early in the campaign, my feeling was that of our current situation, switched - Imogen felt her powers were a burden and a curse and Laudna kept referring to them and to her glowingly. It's just...ships passing in the night, no pun intended here. I hope it's on purpose and whatever comes from it is a good story - and either a tragedy or a happy story could be a good one. But I have a nagging sensation that Laudna wants out but is afraid to say no, and Imogen is afraid to let go, and I honestly don't know if the actors have realized this impasse and how the characters might resolve it, one way or another, besides the insufficient bandaid of a kiss whenever the conversation gets too uncomfortable.

[elzorton]

Some thoughts about Otohan Thull, the impact of chance on storytelling structures and themes in ttrpgs, and the catharsis of fulfilling story beats.

BIG SPOILERS FOR C3E91 OF CRITICAL ROLE UNDER THE CUT

You have been warned.

Hang with me here cause for the first half it could sound like i’m whining but i promise that this isn’t a negative or critical post. (also, i’m a little sleep deprived so if i’m not making sense just ignore me oops)

Okay, so a thing for me when it comes to ttrpgs compared with, let’s call it ”traditional” mediums of storytelling such as books or movies, is that the randomness that comes with dice rolls, chance and improv can sometimes leave certain story beats feeling… unfulfilled? Chance can lead to things getting resolved in a way that doesn’t feel impactful - or at least not as impactful as it could’ve been.

The death of grand villains such as Otohan Thull is a very good example of this. We expect villains to meet their demise dramatically, and thematically. As i was watching the latest episode, i found myself hoping that Laudna, Imogen or Orym would get the hdywtdt on Otohan. They are the ones who personally have been hurt by her the most, and therefore ”should” (according to my brain that is used to certain story structures ) get the final blow. If the story was told through a traditional storytelling medium, these are very likely scenarios. I’m not saying that it definitely would’ve happened like that, but I’m saying that however it would’ve happened, it would’ve been in a thematically impactful way.

In ttrpgs however, the thematically impactful death of a major villain isn’t guaranteed. The fact that some things aren’t gonna get resolved in the most fulfilling ways is something that we just have to accept. And i DO accept that - but it doesn’t stop the moments where it happens from feeling… incomplete.

WITH ALL THAT BEING SAID - here comes the part where it will stop sounding like i’m about to be whiny about the way it played out.

The outcome of this episode, the death of Otohan, DID feel fulfilling and impactful. It WAS impactful - and thematically relevant. Just not in the way that I expected. Which is exactly what I wish to experience around storytelling.

FCG’s sacrifice is heartbreaking and beautiful. It left me devastated and thankful. Otohan Thull has been so masterfully set up as a villain throughout the campaign. For their death to feel fulfilling, it kind of NEEDED to happen in a grand and impactful way. To me, she DESERVED a memorable death. The most obvious ways that could’ve come true is if Laudna, Imogen or Orym would’ve killed them. Laudna, she would kill the person who murdered her and further her spiral downward into Delilah’s embrace. Imogen and Orym, they would’ve gotten revenge on the person killing the people they loved the most.

Of course, those scenarios aren’t the only thematically fulfilling ways Otohan Thull could’ve died. What transpired this episode is absolutely, 100% meaningful and fulfilling. It just fulfilled another story beat then the ones I expected.

I have already seen a lot of posts highlighting 4SD discussions, previous conversations between characters and the growth of FCG as a character preceding this episode, where among other things FCG’s tendencies to want to sacrifice themselves, their journey towards the Changebringer and her philosophy of choosing your own path, and their growth towards viewing themselves as a living being with a soul. Therefor, I don’t feel the need to go into details of why their death felt thematically in line. We knew they were a ”ticking time bomb”. We knew they wanted to keep their friends safe with any means necessary.

What this means for the death of Otohan, is that it happened in a way that is bittersweet, cathartic and simultaneously expected and unexpected. THAT, is everything you could wish for in the death of a major villain. Otohan Thull has been one of my absolute favorite villains in all three campaigns. She has been brutal, involved and has kept the characters looking over their shoulders in fear everywhere they go. They deserved a grand death. They deserved something impactful, thematically relevant and unforgettable.

Otohan’s death will forever be etched into my brain. As Brennan said so beautifully: ”Why do we tell stories? To try to make sense of a world that can be terrifying and enormous”. This made sense. It was still terrifying. But it made sense. It was fulfilling.

TL;DR, ttrpgs don’t guarantee that major villains will meet their ends in thematically fulfilling ways. In this case, it WAS fulfilling and impactful. Just not in the way I, personally, expected.

[revvethasmythh]

For the critical role ask meme: 15 and 30.

Or, if you want to be spicy: 5 and 11. 👀

Or any combination of the above :)

15: Favorite one-on-one conversation (can be between two PCs, or a PC and NPC).

Caleb and Fjord in episode 62, Domestic Respite. That has been my favorite conversation since I first heard it and it still is. Caleb's "We can remake ourselves into something better" is, to me, the thesis of what the Mighty Nein campaign is about. That is The Ultimate conversation for me.

I do want to shout out Beau and Caleb's one-on-one in episode 57 though, too, because I do genuinely love that conversation and how it so viscerally feels like a turning point in their relationship and the campaign as a whole. Also Beau saying "You don't have to thank me for my time like you're a social worker" and then giving Caleb just a really long awkward hug lives in my head rent free

30: What is your favorite theory or headcanon that has absolutely no bearing on the plot and isn't important at all, but which is completely compliant with canon?

Okay as far as I am aware, this is canon compliant and if it's not don't tell me let me live in it, but it's "Eshteross is Fjord's dad." I have tethered myself to that theory. I am it's cheerleader. The only one who can take this from me is Matt

5: Meta you would write if you did not fear people would be SUPER weird about it. This is also an invitation to write that meta and block the haters.

Oh boy. there's quite a few honestly. But first that comes to mind is an expansion of that very brief (not maintagged) post I made exploring why Imogen has frustrated me as a character and despite wanting to like her, I really just find myself unable to connect with her. In conjunction with this, I think there is something to be said about Imogen and Laudna's relationship holding each other back from developing more. Something about the way they always reach for each feels like a stagnation of their developments that just leaves me wishing we could see them interact with more members of the group more often or to, honestly, see their codependency come up as a topic/be addressed in canon or sever more than it has to date.

It's like you know that conversation Nott and Caleb had in c2e46: Caleb said, "lately, I've gotten a little wrapped up in the group. I've forgotten about us. I've forgotten." And that's an interesting character beat! It'd be something different from the same homogeneity that their relationship has been dawdling in. The rock fight is the most interesting thing that's happened between them and that didn't even get all that heated or really change anything! Like not to abandon all attempts at maintaining a formal discussion on the topic, but I am emotionally poking their relationship with a stick saying "do something already"

okay. that felt good to get out. now ANOTHER THING

Honestly, I feel like a very long meta could be written about the way that fandom had pigeonholed Veth a "Mother" that doesn't actually leave room for her to be a person. I have seen so many people boil down her character to nothing more than a "mom," as if that's a character trait and not just something that she is. Like, yeah, she IS a mom. But "mom" isn't a personality and I don't know why the fandom treats it like one, and then goes so far as to continually behave like Veth is not just Luc's mom but Caleb's too, which she has not only repeatedly said she is NOT, but has openly and canonically admitted to having romantic/sexual attraction to him to the point where I'm like.......what do you think mothers are like? And that's not even about shipping. Shipping goggles are off, friends. That's about ignoring canon and vital character details that contribute to Veth's overall character arc that are willfully forgotten. And man, does that grind my gears.

Okay that's probably enough salt (this got long, sorry) and I can't think of anything off the top of my head for 11, but if something comes up I might add it.

Thanks for the questions!!

Weirdly specific ask meme!

[unicyclehippo]

ok hello i am writing the SHORTEST little conversations for critical role again i am trying to write again ur welcome. anyway i call this one “i’m gay for hot mean women” feat. laudna & delilah

Laudna watched the closeness between Imogen and Fresh and felt something terrible rise in her gut. 

 ‘She’s leaving you behind.’ 

 Laudna hissed at the intruder. No one appeared to have noticed the incursion—no, there, Orym looking back. She waved cheerily, which seemed to soothe his concern. When his eyes refocused forward, Laudna let Snail fall a little behind the group. Drew the hood of her cloak up and over her head. 

‘What do you want?’ 

‘You’ve been chatty,’ Delilah murmured. ‘I wanted to remind you of our arrangement, dear. Not to say anything…untoward.’ 

‘I haven’t.’ 

Delilah hummed. Laudna could feel her, poking about in her mind; cold fingers dragged over memories, plucked them like books from shelves of her mind. She regarded Orym—Delilah the Orym of her memory, Laudna the tense shoulders of her friend riding in the rain—and clicked her tongue. ‘You should count yourself lucky, by the way.’ Humour twined a chilling tendril through her tone. Nothing amused Delilah quite like a joke at someone else’s expense. Better, someone else’s demise. ‘After all, not everyone gets such a generous last meal.’ 

Laudna tilted her head, smacked it hard in an effort to dislodge Delilah but she stayed. Bitch. With a disappointed sniff, and a crack of bone as she corrected the angle of her head, Laudna said, ‘The potatoes were undercooked.’ 

Delilah laughed, throaty and rich. To Laudna’s dismay, she heard herself laugh the same way. 

On the road ahead, Imogen turned back.

‘Don’t worry. I’m sure the staff paid for that misstep in full. You could say they had a taste of my husbands displeasure.’ 

Laudna gagged. A vampire joke? Tacky. ‘You’re really not as funny as you think you are.’ 

‘And you are really too disrespectful for someone who owes me their life,’ she hissed. Quick as a striking snake, she shifted back to that arch tone, all dark humour and the rising pleasure that came from causing pain. Laudna braced. After all, she was the only one present. ‘In fact, I think you should thank me.’ 

Laudna growled, deep in her throat. ‘No.’ 

Delilah spoke again, with none of the gentleness of a joke. ‘I said,’ she hissed, and took Laudna’s heart in the palm of her hand. Strung her nerves around cold fingers. ‘Thank me.’ 

Laudna shivered. Twitched. She fought it but how to fight? They shared a mind, a body. She was fighting only herself. Her jaw moved under Delilah’s direction. ‘Thank you.’ 

‘Thank you, my Lady.’ 

A grey hall. A fine dinner. Her parents, her future, her life. Ended for a warning. A joke. A treat, a trick, meant to disturb. Lives ended on a whim. 

‘Thank you,’ Laudna rasped. ‘My Lady.’ 

It did not seem to bother Delilah that the words were hollow, mechanical. That she was making Laudna speak them. Perhaps that was because she could feel Laudna’s rising horror, feel the way she struggled against the strings like a rat in a trap, as it occurred to her what else Delilah could make her do. Delilah loosed the strings. Laudna fell - arms, ungainly, back to the reins; head, dropped, chin to chest. She held herself very still against the urge to shiver, tremble. 

Cold fingers stroked the back of her neck, as one would scratch at the neck of a faithful hound. ‘There. Good girl. Don’t make me warn you again, please.’

Laudna expected Delilah to leave, her point well and truly made. But instead, she lingered. 

‘I lied before. About why I’m here. I thought we could have a little chat, dead woman to dead woman, about the future. What you can do for me. What we can do for each other.’

‘I don’t want anything from you.’

‘We both know that isn’t true. Why, only the other night, talking about your past, you seemed so...ill at ease. There’s so much you don’t know. About yourself, about these powers I’ve granted you.’

‘I know enough.’

‘How could you possibly? The fact is you don’t know anything! You admitted it! Those troublesome little blank spots. Holes in your memory? You don’t know what happened between my guards taking you to the dungeon and waking up on that tree and that worries you, doesn’t it? It’s like -’ Delilah hummed thoughtfully. Stroked the shell of her ear. Despite the cuff, Laudna felt the touch on skin and scar. ‘It’s like a piece of you is missing,’ she murmured. ‘But you have an inkling, don’t you? Memories don’t go missing for no reason. You want to know what could possibly have been so bad that you remember all those other terrible things but not that. You want to know what else I did to you. You’ve been thinking about it a lot, ever since your dear heart came back from the library. What’s the word she used? Ah yes. Experiments.’

‘I don’t believe you!’ Laudna snapped. There was no doubt she was talking loud enough to draw attention, enough for the others to hear and witness, but her surroundings were just blackness as she closed her eyes tight, attention drawn ever inwards. 

‘Believe me? Darling, these are your thoughts, not mine.’

‘That’s not true. You’re lying again -’

‘You haven’t gone nearly mad enough to make me up in that broken head of yours and you know it. Besides, your girl would be able to hear me if I were another one of your voices, wouldn’t she?’

That was a question that had confounded them both. Two years they had wandered, searching for explanations, and had found nothing. It was something that unsettled Laudna as much as it frustrated Imogen. 

‘She’s an interesting one, your girl. Being able to peel open minds like that... I can see why she would interest you. At first you hoped she could answer your questions. And then you fell in love. It happens to the best of us,’ Delilah said, tone inviting her to laugh alone. Laudna didn’t. She felt paralysed, pain and fear coursing through her. Delilah sighed. ‘Oh dear. I’ve overwhelmed you. You must be so confused,’ she cooed. Curled a string of Laudna’s hair about her finger and tugged, sharp, sending a painful twinge through to her scalp. ‘All those questions you must have. What happened to me?’ she asked in a trembling mockery of Laudna. ‘What have I become? What did you do to me? Why am I like this?’ Delilah paused. The air grew cold, still. When she continued, her voice was a coiling hiss, wrapping itself around her. Her promises, another noose for Laudna’s neck. ‘How do I make it sstop?’

Laudna swallowed. An old curiosity, that question. Passing. One that she had not shared with Imogen. 

‘I can answer all your questions, darling. You need only ask.’

The thought of Imogen sent a flash of lightning through her brain, a jolt - enough to cut through the numb cold. ‘And you’ll share your knowledge for free, of course.’

Delilah laughed. 'No, of course not. Not when I know you could beg me for it and make any kind of promise I'd like.' 

'That won't happen.' 

'Are you so certain?' Delilah asked. Cold fingers touched to Laudna's chin, turned her to face and focus on Imogen--so worried, so close. 'I can help you, Laudna. I can answer all your questions. Grant you powers beyond your wildest dreams. Grant you forgotten knowledge to help your girl. You may not believe me, darling, but I'd rather help you than hurt you. But if you won't ask, and if you won't help me, if you struggle too hard, if you try to fight me,' she said with a dangerous snarl, 'well. Hurting you won't be a problem.'

[fia-bonkginya]

alone outside the warehouse, watching bertrand and imogen run off, dorian takes a moment to reflect. later, alone in his room, still feeling the aches of a long day, orym does the same. (critical role c3e3 missing scenes)

(link in the reblogs to part 1 of this, or to where you can read all my dorym missing scenes on ao3!)

Dorian waited until Bertrand and Imogen were out of sight before leaning against the wall of the warehouse with a sigh. He didn’t know if he had made the right choice, letting them leave, but he couldn’t... he couldn’t walk away, not with Orym still inside. That was the plan, that Orym would sneak in and the rest of them would be there, ready to help, because he was alone.

But even waiting here, what good was he?

He couldn’t communicate with Orym, the way Imogen and Laudna could. If something went wrong, he wouldn’t know. Something could be going wrong, right now, and he wouldn’t know.

“Stop it,” Dorian muttered to himself, rubbing a hand down his face. “You’re spiraling.” 

This was, maybe, becoming a problem. Dorian could admit that he cared about Orym, more, even, than he cared about Fearne and Dariax and Opal, and he was trying to avoid thinking about what that meant. But he also knew, he knew, that it was going to make him stupid. 

Was already making him stupid.

Dorian sighed again, staring off into the distance. If something happened to Bertrand, or to Imogen, would it be his fault for not going with them? If he had known that something would happen, would he even have made a different choice?

He didn’t think so, and that scared him too, a little. He had told Fy’ra, once, that he would do anything for his friends, and he knew that he would do twice that for Orym.

Their conversation from a few hours earlier still rang in his head, too- Orym had asked Dorian to be there for him, to be ready to pick him up when Orym fell, and Dorian had no intention of failing him.

Even if it meant leaving the others behind.

~~

Orym couldn’t sleep.

He was exhausted, a bone-deep tiredness that only came from a long day of hard work and hard fighting, and it felt like every inch of his body hurt. Those creatures- the shade creepers, Esteross had called them- had had some kind of poison in their attacks, and the aftereffects felt like they were still coursing through Orym’s veins.

But still, there he lay, staring at the ceiling, alone in the room he hadn’t paid for, more than an hour after saying goodnight to Dorian and Bertrand.

Part of him wanted to find Dorian, to find Fearne, to push open their doors, to say, I don’t know how to sleep on my own anymore, I don’t think. I don’t know how it happened, but somewhere along the way, I got used to it, to seeing all of you there whenever I opened my eyes, to feeling Fearne’s warmth against my back, to hearing Dariax snore, to feeling Opal’s cold feet press against my legs, to hearing Dorian play us all to sleep. I don’t know how to be alone anymore, and that scares me, but right now, I just want to sleep. 

Another part of him, a smaller part, one that he kept buried deep in his chest, wanted to open Dorian’s door, to curl up beside him, to whisper, You are the most important person in my life right now, did you know that? And you keep coming after me, and I don’t know what to do about that. I don’t know how to tell you how much it scares me, caring for you. I don’t know how to tell you about the ways that caring for people has hurt me in the past, and I don’t know how to tell you that I want to love you anyway.

But he wasn’t going to do any of that, couldn’t afford to do any of that. They had a job to do here, and while things had changed over the past 48 hours, that was still the same. They were here on a mission, to accomplish a task, and Orym couldn’t let anything get in the way of that, wouldn’t let anything get in the way of that. 

It was hard, though, when Dorian acted the way he did, rushing into danger after him, saying things like no debts between us with that look on his face, the one that was just a little too sincere. But that was just... that was just the way Dorian was. Orym had to believe that that was just the way Dorian was.

“Stay on task,” Orym whispered to himself, curling into a ball on the too-small bed in the too-quiet room, and he tried again to sleep.

[utilitycaster]

So I've felt a little bit like I'm struggling a bit to see for myself where you and others are recognizing Imogen's self-centeredness. Like, it makes sense for it to be there once it's pointed out to me, but she has a lot of moments where she DOES consider whether or not she or the party are potentially bringing harm to other people or animals—so it wasn't difficult for me to come away from her character, at a surface level, thinking that her biggest flaw is being a cynic and not letting people in, and I think between fanon and judging her by past Laura PCs, I have some trouble getting a read on her. What are you taking into consideration as you observe her character and her choices, and how much do you think Laura's leaning into those things intentionally?

So I do think that I probably cover her selfish moments more than I cover her on the whole, both because I find those moments a particularly interesting part of her character and in reaction to the bad fanon of her as a long-suffering victim deprived of choices. I should also note that I don't think she's a black hole of self absorption, so much as she tends to perhaps not consider that multiple options all have a chance of hurting people in a way I find insensitive.

Perhaps an overarching theme is the psychic powers in that I think she is so used to picking up people's thoughts that she doesn't realize the power imbalance this grants. Like...I think she sometimes forgets that a conversation needs to be a two-way street and is not solely her reading thoughts, but an opportunity for others to get information about her and hear her feelings, and also for her to express that curiosity about others. Which is a weird take on self-centeredness! I think most people think of self-centeredness as someone who only talks about themselves, and Imogen is not that. But at the same time...a good example is when she sees her father, who is pretty clearly desperately lonely and isolated and has been abandoned by both his wife and daughter due to them having powers well beyond what he understands. I don't think she picks up on all the visual cues, and while she could read what he's thinking, I think she forgets the impact of a simple "how are you?" or the responsibilities of both people to engage with conversation. Like...yes, you can understand someone's upset by reading their mind, but what about talking it through? What about the benefits the other person gains by having to put things into words? That's often lost in Imogen's interactions.

When she's focused on getting information, all the niceties fall away, and if she doesn't want the information she doesn't have that sense of give and take that would obligate most people to still carry on a conversation. (I suspect this is also why the two arguments she's had with Laudna have both fizzled out so unsatisfyingly; you have someone who will rapidly cover up any unhappiness and someone who - in my interpretation anyway - doesn't take that into consideration.)

The conversation leading up to the solstice is also a big one; I think again that the underlying motivation isn't ill-intentioned, per se, when she talks about whether the Vanguard might be right. I think that comes from, as I've said, an idea of hypocrisy of words vs. thoughts not matching, whereas most of us would think of hypocrisy as a mismatch of word and action. I don't think she intends to hurt people here. But at the same time it's immensely hurtful to bring this up to someone like Orym, who has lost his husband and his father figure and nearly his own life, or to Laudna, who could have been permanently killed by Otohan. It's not that it's not a valid line of discussion even though ideologically I'm opposed; it's that I don't think she has that sense of tact here. Which is also understandable, in that 18-year-old Imogen was never spared people's thoughts about her, but that doesn't mean it's not selfish. And it stands out because, again, I feel that people who talk to Imogen are not granted that opportunity to talk through their thoughts and use her as a sounding board, but she (again - possibly unwittingly) expects others to be available as one for her. Sort of to your point - I think she often thinks about whether the party is going to hurt people but I don't think she thinks about whether she, Imogen, is going to say something immensely hurtful to a party member.

I also find that she's just...not terribly pragmatic, and I'll admit that this is just a strong personal preference on my part in that I find adherence to pure ideology without a clear plan to be selfish at worst, though just extremely annoying at best. It feels she shoots down or criticizes a lot of plans with no better idea in mind (this happened a bunch in Uthodurn/Molaesmyr so this might be recency bias) and that always in real life makes me go "ok so if you're the one with the good ideas, have one." The "what about people who don't follow the gods" line after Deanna and FCG had direct visions really made me go "girl this is not about you;" it's not that it's not a valid question but for real, girl this is not about you and I don't know, what about them? Figure it out yourself.

Writing it out I think that this is honestly not that different from what you might call cynicism. I think Imogen just...doesn't always get that people are in fact more than their collections of thoughts, and hasn't put in the effort to really get a sense of how non-psychics might interact with the world.

As for intentionality: I have to admit I'm not sure how much is an intentional analysis of how a psychic might behave. I think the view of hypocrisy is on purpose, but I don't know if the conflict avoidance with Laudna is motivated by that or by something else. I also wonder, but am not sure, if some of the subtle changes with Imogen after getting the circlet are her adjusting to not reading people's thoughts. Like, that puts the interaction with Deanna killing the goat in a new light, because that's an interaction where I don't fault Imogen, and I think it works well as her being like "TRULY WHY THE FUCK DID YOU DO THAT I CAN'T READ YOUR MIND." But Laura's played it close to the vest on 4SD and I have some again kind of personal...maybe not biases, but definitely hunches and doubts regarding backstory for Imogen, and I don't know how much she's thought it out.

And finally, also through writing this out, I do think some of what I say is again a personal reaction to not just fanon but the very "this person is RIGHT and this person is WRONG" nature a lot of fanon, especially surrounding Imogen, has taken. I think if there were a fandom environment in which (for example) it was more common for people to say "Oh, it looks like Relvin is someone who tried hard but was limited by his own knowledge, and his attempt to protect Imogen by keeping her in the dark about Liliana made things worse, and Imogen in turn saw his distance and increased it, and these are two people who love each other but have hurt each other pretty badly and don't want to deal with it because for a long time they were all the other had, and frankly Imogen is still all Relvin has" instead of projecting their personal daddy issues onto it in the service of the stripped of choice innocent but all-powerful failgirl narrative, I'd have a more measured response myself. "Insensitive in a way that quite likely is unintentional but often comes off as all take and no give, particularly in her one-on-one interactions with others" is probably a better way to put it, and I think that her cynicism is part of why she's like this.

[utilitycaster]

While you're fielding Imogen/Laudna questions/sharing opinions: My biggest issue with them/their relationship so far, and you've talked about it a bit in the past is less "I need them to kiss/I ship them romantically" and more "you two say you're best friends, but are y'all sure you're even friends?" Like. Outside of The Rock Incident I can't think of any meaningful conversations or even just 1-on-1 moments Imogen and Laudna have had together. I don't need them to be a romantic relationship, but man, when it seems like there's deeper platonic relationship between FCG & Imogen and a better chemistry between Luadna & Ashton, I gotta ask: does the narrative even support them being best friends at this point??

Hey anon,

In my opinion? It does! I don't think it's necessarily the most healthy friend relationship, and I don't know if they'll end the campaign as either romantic partners or best friends, but I do think that they still think of each other that way as of now.

Here's the thing we know about Imogen and Laudna: prior to meeting each other, they were both incredibly lonely, and had been for quite some time. Imogen feels that Laudna saved her life, and as we don't know the details I've seen this interpreted - validly - as a commentary not on a literal fight or anything like that, but on Imogen's mental state prior to meeting Laudna.

For what it's worth: there are two people who used to be in my life who I became friends with, or became much closer to, when I was in the midst of a depressive episode. I am, as the past tense indicates, not close to them anymore. The thing is, when one is feeling hopeless and desperate and incredibly alone, you are probably going to want things that are not necessarily good for you in happier and healthier times, and so, the person who pushes you to go out when you should, but your brain is saying "no, everyone hates you" is sometimes a person who doesn't realize that they need to respect your boundaries once you're doing better. The person who likes that they get to pick all the activities might not take kindly to you when you start to assert your own preferences. And, as always, misery loves company, and if you become less miserable...the company may not care for you as much.

Obviously the above is my personal experience, and I think given that both Imogen and Laudna were suffering at the time, it's not an exact equivalent, but I do think it's fair to say that a friendship formed because you were all that the other had might not be one where you set healthy boundaries or felt like you could express yourself honestly.

And so, the fact that suddenly, upon joining Bells Hells, Imogen has found FCG, who can relate in part with her empathic powers and who actually has suggested tangible steps she can take, rather than reassurances Imogen might not actually feel, is relevant; as is the fact that Ashton is not someone Laudna feels like she has to protect and who can relate very much to being physically changed in a potentially off-putting way in a way that Imogen cannot. (For that matter, Orym and Chetney have asked Imogen some of the tough questions Laudna cannot while asking for nothing in return, and Fearne shares Laudna's exuberance for life in a way Imogen doesn't). Now that they have others, it means they need to actually think about their relationship as something other than the only lifeline.

They're also not the same people they were at the start. I talked about this a little here, but Laudna just got some meaningful closure regarding her death in Whitestone due to Percy's apology, and Delilah seems to at least be quiet, and she knows how far Bells Hells would go to save her. Imogen meanwhile still doesn't have a ton of answers, has even more things to worry about regarding her powers, and her mother still being alive means some of her metaphorical wounds have been opened anew. They quite possibly have some really messy, ugly feelings and don't know how to talk through them because their relationship rested on "you're all I've got" and so they've been playing it far too safe for over two years.

I still think Imogen and Laudna are incredibly important to each other, and I think Imogen's grief over Laudna was incredibly real, but it does feel like there might be a natural drifting apart for all of the above reasons. Imogen may still dream of baking cookies with Laudna, but that's one moment, not a lasting basis of a deep friendship or romantic relationship, and I wonder if they might be realizing that now that they have other options, there are things they prefer about those other options. Which is a good thing! Like, consider Caleb and Veth, or Fjord and Jester, both of whom started and ended the campaign very close but who were more distant from each other for a time in the middle. This is really why I liked the gnarlrock fight and was disappointed that they didn't ultimately address anything; a good honest blowout fight might help them understand where they are and know each other better, but I think instead we're getting a slow, quiet, deepening rift, and yeah, eventually, best friends might not be the right term for them. But they were best friends for a long time, even if the circumstances were complicated, and that's still worth remembering and acknowledging. (For what it's worth, a quiet, deepening rift is a really interesting development too and I'd enjoy seeing that played out, since it's very true to life.)