#thats the thing like its misogyny

[tenderjock]

I’m with you, my love The lights shining through on you Yes, I’m with you, my love It’s the morning and just we two

[the-goldsmith]

You're absolutely right that making content out of spite is very much not a healthy mindset to have, and I appreciate that your original post was about encouraging creatives to do the things they want to do because they like them and not due to any outside pressure. I do think that's something that's always worth bringing up considering today's state of social media/fandom and how frustrating it can be.

Re: your other frustrations:

This now has much less to do with the original tweet and more my own personal projections/speculation.

I believe that while farcille is currently the top ship it will very likely soon be overtaken by an m/m ship, and its progression won't see the uptick that the m/m ships have seen.

The reason I feel this way is that dungeon meshi, before the anime came out, was a decently popular work among people who like yuri. This is obviously because it's easy to read farcille as romantic, and the story revolves in some way around them, so while Falin isn't actually around very often it makes for very good romantic subtext.

Now, unfortunately the number of people who like yuri is proportionally very small, they are used to not getting a lot of content, and are a fairly tightly-knit community. Meaning that once a New Lesbian Thing is discovered, most of the people who are likely to take an interest in it will do so right away. Additionally, himejoshi (getting tired of saying "people who like yuri" lol) are used to consuming manga over anime, since very few yuri anime adaptations get made.

So a good majority of people interested in farcille and willing to make content for it have likely already encountered it before the anime significantly heightened the manga's popularity, which is how we get farcille currently having the most fics out of any other ship on ao3.

Meanwhile, people who enjoy yaoi aren't exactly starved for content, so they can just organically come across new stories once they become popular.

This is all to say that I think farcille has already achieved somewhat close to peak popularity (proportionally to the size of the fandom), and while it will definitely get a bit of a boost once we get to the resurrection scene I don't think even that will be enough to garner much more attention.

On the other hand, labru/other m/m ships have only now started to get content because the larger animanga fandom has set its gaze on dunmeshi for the first time, and the larger animanga fandom tends to like yaoi.

So what I think will happen is that as the dunmeshi anime reaches the more interesting parts of the story and its popularity rises, the rate at which m/m content gets made will soon easily overtake the rate at which farcille content gets made, so the fact that it's still in the lead right now isn't necessarily reassuring. If anything, I'm so sure that this is what will happen that it only makes me dread the day it gets "dethroned" (dramatic choice of words but rest assured I'm not actually that invested in this situation).

As for the faults of the work itself, I agree that part of this phenomenon is to blame on the fact there's just not as many female characters, though one counterpoint I have is that the male characters who get the most spotlight in the story itself (Laios, Chilchuck, Senshi), don't exactly have "yaoiful" dynamics between them, and that's reflected on ao3. The two most popular yaoi ships are between Laios and a guy he has a very limited number of interactions with (significant interactions, but still), and two secondary characters who, again, have a few significant interactions but still not that many. Also, while every element in the story matters as it otherwise wouldn't have been included, these relationships are secondary aspects of the story. They inform the characters, but they're not necessarily integral.

Compare that to how farcille is very much a foundational aspect of the narrative, despite the fact that they also end up not getting to interact that often.

The way I see it there's comparatively a lot more meat on the farcille bone that will go largely unaddressed because fandom, as a rule, would rather focus on secondary dynamics so long as they involve men.

I don't want to make this a case of "my ship is better than yours" though, I really don't care about that, and I think I should add that a lot of my opinions on the matter are informed by similar dynamics in other fandoms and not dunmeshi's necessarily (the anime just came out so it's still a baby fandom in many ways), so this might actually play out differently from what I expect for all I know. Though I don't think it will, because so far it reads as another textbook case.

@the-goldsmith It is, though I didn't know it was a tweet until later, just that I saw people making posts about it in the tag.

And yeah, I don't really blame people for needing to vent about stuff, and I definitely think it's worth talking about fandom trends and how they can reflect misogyny, racism, etc. I do also think the form that this venting takes can slip into bullying sometimes, or just be more stressful than helpful for people involved.

The main reason I made that post was for writers and other fandom creative types. If writing from spite is a good motivator for someone then more power too them, but I'm intimately familiar with the feeling of wanting to "prove" something or change the tide of fandom by writing good enough or often enough about the thing I love. It is always an exhausting and demoralizing thought-spiral to get caught in for me, and truly I hope that the people frustrated by the ao3 stuff don't experience the same thing.

However, to soapbox a little... I also think the framing of the situation (in the original post/tweet/whatever) also is kind of disingenuous. Which isn't really the main point I was originally making but also I do find it frustrating. So I'm gonna talk a little about that too

THESE are the top relationship tags for dunmeshi on ao3:

Mar/Fal is still by far and away the most popular relationship. The reason there is more total M/M is because there are is a larger variety of M/M ships.

There are three major M/M pairings here with over 10 fics, as well as three categories of /Reader fics.

There is basically ONLY Mar/Fal for F/F content. Mar/Izu is the next closest, and most of those fics are pretty old, too. I don't think there will be a ton of focus on that category in the future, due to Izu's age and implied aroace orientation. Beyond that there are 4 Ki/Nam fics, as well as 2 Hien/Benchidori ones not in the screenshot.

And this also can be influenced by people not wanting to focus on female characters. Why isn't there more variety in pairs here? Well... to be honest, I think if we are going to talk about lack of content focused on women, we should also look at the source material.

Because like, don't get me wrong. I love dunmeshi. I think it does well by its female characters. But not THAT well. Marcille and Izutsumi are the only real main female characters. Even if we include Falin in this list, that's only three. Hell, let's even throw in Namari! Compared to Laios, Chilchuck, Senshi, Thistle, Kabru, Mithrun, and Shuro, that's barely over half as many major women as there are men in the story.

It's not an even playing field here, and I frankly think that sucks. I think it is a flaw of the story. And I don't think it gets talked about enough. If people are frustrated about misogyny, I wish they would dig into this too, and not just blame fans. And god, I know that gets touted a lot, the whole 'well it's not my fault that media focuses on men!' thing. I'm not saying that there's no biases in the fandom. But it is frustrating to see people talking about dunmeshi as if it's a super yuri/woman focused story when it just isn't. The lack of variety of female characters is the primary reason that total F/F content is less than M/M, and that problem DIRECTLY traces back to the canon.

[spitblaze]

gnc and butch women (cis AND trans) and transmascs are punished for performing masculinity past certain thresholds of arbitrary attractiveness because people that cishet society categorizes or clocks as 'women' are not supposed to perform masculinity. hope this helps 👍

[liauditore]

hey guys have any of you watched utena

been circling this AU in my head for awhile. I don't think I could give you a direct one to one casting list of utena to traffic smp but the themes and motifs are more important to me honestly. so.

essentially it's a play on how jimmy tends to be the "object of desire" of so many of his servermates (e.g. joel, scott, fwhip, sausage, martyn, so on) and in utena anthy is the "rose bride" and the students compete in duels to "win" her.

I imagine that in this timeline joel would be an ex-student council member who used to be a participant trying to win jimmy like everyone else and the start of the utena plotline is him realising he wants to break the system. The black uniform can even be like. Him being purposefully edgy and symbolic about going rogue. And his motive for "freeing" jimmy would be much more rooted in homophobia instead of feminism because it's joel.

there's alot more thoughts here but I'll leave it at that for now I am so so sleepy

[tabellae-rex-in-sui]

I'm new to Sade so sorry if this is a stupid question, but was Sade gay? I'm currently reading Justine and noticed the passionate, semi-romantic descriptions of m/m sex, which contrast with the crude descriptions of f/m sex. I've not read all of Sade's books, but the ones I have read also feature characters who're mostly disinterested in women, who give off self-insert vibes (e.g. Dolmancé). Am I reading too much into it? IDK but I was wondering if you could shed some light.

Happy deathday to Sade!! lol

Really all that can be said with certainty is that he definitely wasn't straight lol. Like anyone who died before modern queer theory, Sade's sexuality can be difficult to label with today's terminology. He was certainly attracted to both men and women, so for simplicity's sake I just say he was bisexual. But really, who knows...

Characters that he uses as self-inserts like Dolmancé in PitB or Bressac in Justine are pretty exclusively attracted to men. Like you said, there's multiple times in his writing where characters will praise m/m sex and show blatant disgust towards sex with women. But if you look at Sade's life, there's only one known* male sex partner and many women. There's also several women Sade was in love with throughout his life, but there exists no letters of him professing love to any man. Could this be because male victims were less likely to go to the police, therefore less known to us? because women were easier to pursue in public? because even he felt the pressure of societal norms? because he kept relations with men better hidden? because any such letters or records were selectively destroyed by a relative? Who knows! It could be some, all, or none of these things. It's really up to the interpretation of the reader. The misogyny, philosophical extremism, and very culturally different ideas about sex add so many different variables to Sade's sexuality.

To add further confusion: gender and sexuality were much more correlated in Sade's writing (and seemingly in the time period in general, I mean look at the bisexual Lord Hervey being referred to as "the third sex"), male characters who get sodimized call it them "becoming women", women who put on strap-ons "become men", even women who get sodimized are masculinized: Saint-Ange says she wants to be a "Ganymede" to Dolmancé. So sodomy seemed inherently gay to Sade, regardless of the sexes involved or what roles they played. Whereas today, that's definitely not the case. Beauvoir follows along with the sexuality-gender correlation and suggests that Sade felt more feminine than masculine and his written contempt for female genitalia was a product of his own gender frustrations. From what I've read, most modern historians tend to avoid labeling Sade with anything other than "sodomite" and "libertine" only using "bisexual" and "homosexual" to label certain actions he performed like "homosexual sex" "bisexual orgy" etc. This is when the word queer is godsent.

Tldr; He's too 18th century libertine for modern labels. Colloquially, I default to calling him bi, but we'll never really know. Maybe he would have preferred gay due to his preferences/philosophies. Who knows. Safest bet is to just call him queer.

*Should go without saying but, there were obviously more. Latour is just the only named one with recorded proof.

[ilynpilled]

i can fully understand the gripes with certain misogynistic tropes/writing issues that are present in the execution of some of cersei’s writing, but i will never understand the “she should have a redemption arc” or “she should be more likeable/less morally dark” perspective. that is not what her character is or has to be to make it great. wanting more female anti-heroes or “redemption arcs” with moral greyness and complexity of the level that asoiaf gives to primarily male characters is entirely understandable, but do some of you people even like cersei as a character, like at its core? like this is not about criticising the execution of certain things when it comes to this character, this is about taking issue with her as a villain fundamentally, which i just do not agree with at all

[timeisacephalopod]

The type of Christian who asks atheists how they don't like, murder people on the reg are so funny to me because they seem to think their religion makes them the Peak of Morality when statements like "if you don't believe in God how comes you don't do X thing" all but outright state they have no idea why shit like murder and rape is bad except that God doesn't like it lmao. Like way to admit you have no intrinsic sense of morality and need to be afraid of a higher power to be a decent person, but I promise if you're not a piece of shit it's actually very natural not to want to do heinous evil shit all the time potential punishment from a higher power or not 🤷🏻‍♀️🤷🏻‍♀️

[haewangsong]

About this whole situation

i feel like the least you can do

is to just... not say you're going to keep enjoying the game.

Enjoy the game, no one can hold you accountable for that, but the moment you're posting on social media about the fact you're going to just ignore everything and support or say that project moon did their best you're just harming the artist they unfairly fired. I know it's hard. I know how devastating it is but at least,

the best thing you can do if you cannot bring yourself to stop playing- is to stay silent.

Also just for some context: (it gets kind of long but long story short. PJ Moon did not make this choice to protect the artist, but they did it because it is the easiest thing.)

Korean women that are angry are angry because this has happened before- in 2016, a VA that wore a t-shirt that was associated with feminism went under attack to the same group of DC incels claiming she's a feminist and should be fired for that.

What the company did- was to fire her, creating a whole whirlpool of situation that got other women targeted and fired. I'm pretty sure the VA here in question got blacklisted from the gaming company.

There are sources revealing that from 2016 to 2020, over 14 women got fired because of similar accusation, and I'm not even sure it counts freelancers that were just silently put off to work.

The National Human Rights Commission of Korea, for fucks sake, has made a testament on 2020 in how the censorship on feminism happening in the gaming industry is a hate crime.

So what Project Moon did here was, it was to do the easiest and most inhumane choice possible, which was to fire a female artist over a similar controversy, bringing the nightmare-ish situation that happened in 2016 back all over again. In 2023. That's why people are disappointed. That's why Korean women feel threatened by this situation. Saying that this was all to protect Vellmori is an insult to her, and to the other female workers who wrongly loose their jobs over situations like these.

The hilarious thing over this whole situation? Every single company that has fired their workers like that has fumbled over themselves! The company and the game that fired the VA got ultimately labeled as a feminist game and lost its male customers too- because they had to keep firing people the moment incels didn't like them, until they couldn't. So incels are saying the game went down because of feminism. Another game? The representative is on fire because to no one's (except for the incels) surprise they fired all of the workers in the project because the game wasn't making any money anymore- making these fired workers reveal the fact that they've been mistreated, overworked, and abused over years. That is two example of many! But what about the games that did the extremely brave and difficult decision to just ignore the incels and go on with their game?

They're fine. They're okay. They had their lows just when the incels attacked, but Korean chauvinist pigs are just so childish that either they decide that it isn't fun to dox people anymore, or comfort themselves saying that oh well, they aren't that feminist after all or, well it's too fun so I don't care it's feminist! This are the pigs PJ Moon cave in. There are games that are boring as hell from smaller companies that survived and are still surviving because their customers are loyal, because the customers know that at least they won't fire their workers over stupid reasonings, the bare minimum!

So just- stop saying you're going to support the game- at least please don't for a while. I can't stop you from playing, but this is something PJ Moon has to take on themselves or this will create the same nightmare-ish situation that happened in 2016 all over again. Don't enable them. Stop giving them the message this is okay. Stop saying it was to support Vellmori, because ruining a young artist's career by telling her she's fired in a phone call after 11pm is not protection. It will never be.

[oceanwithouthermoon]

i am SICK and TIRED of seeing teruhashi slander in this fandom… she’s my beautiful princess with a disorder LEAVE HER ALONE 👿 GET A JOB OR SOMETHING YOU FREAKS 💯💯‼️‼️‼️

so true anon i forgot to answer a month ago<3

[bmpmp3]

sorry for art-class-critique-posting again but one thing thats been very fascinating to see from my classmates and especially from my professors is this like, usually implicit but occasional explicit assertion that a lot of the artistic techniques, styles, and practices i happen to do (such as quick, unblended brushstrokes, paint drips, etc) are inherently "masculine". i personally am secure and comfortable with myself as a gender nonconforming woman so it doesnt affect me one way or the other much but i also can't help but feel like.......... do you think maybe the reason you dont see as many young woman art students doing these techniques might be because they feel a bit insecure or uncomfortable having their womanhood called into question just because they were a little more aggressive with their brushstrokes? of course abstract expressionism and movements of its ilk where boys clubs (as were most artistic movements in the history of time) and theres a lot to unpack with that but i dont think leaning into the idea that women only paint neatly with careful paint blending and soft colours is the way to go about this.........

[spitblaze]

You know I probably would have figured out something was up with me genderwise sooner if people assigned female at birth were not conditioned from a young age to absolutely loathe their bodies in order to sell beauty products and diets and unattainable standards

[lettucedloophole]

im a little worried with mouthwashing becoming blorbo game that people are going to brush over the horrific misogyny in anya and jimmy's relationship. that anya was worried (and rightfully so given what happened) that jimmy would literally kill her. just worried they'll brush past that bc problematic man fun

[rainingmbappe]

The rise of "let people enjoy things" is single handedly the backbone of the rise of anti intellectualism

[al-luviec]

still haven't moved on from zane in this episode (aka I hit tag limit again and am unhappy about it)

[kindheartedgummybears]

you wanna know what??

I am

TIRED

of overmasculinized werewolves!!!!

I WANNA SEE A

WEREWOLF

WALKING AROUND IN A CVNTY LITTLE OUTFIT!!! WALKING THE STREETS!!!! DISEMBOWELING CREATURES!!!!

I WANNA SEE WEREWOLVES COVERED IN BLOOD AND GORE WHILE WEARING A SHORT SKIRT AND CROPTOP WITH HELLO KITTY ON IT!!!!

I WANNA SEE A WEREWOLF WALKING AROUND IN COTTAGE AND FAIRY AND PRINCESS CORE OUTFITS!!!!!! WITH A DEAD MANGLED RABBIT IN ITS MOUTH!!!!

AND MAKE THE WEREWOLF

D I S G U S T I N G ! ! !

[mephoj]

"EVERYONE ELSE is misogynistic i LOVE female characters!!" - guy who is constantly ignoring important parts of female characters arcs bc they cant stand not hating One character for one minute. guy who mostly only discusses female characters relationships with men while complaining the sapphic ships "just dont make sense :/"