#thank you! i didn't know i had so many fingolfin thoughts

[searchingforserendipity25]

If you're still doing the character ask, please: Fingolfin

Character Ask Game 💚🤍🖤

I am always up for asks! Thank you @melestasflight, Fingolfin was very fun to tackle!

Give me a character and I will give you my thoughts on

Fingolfin

one aspect about them i love 

Leading several thousand people across a desolate wasteland after cutting ties with their deities is THE most insane thing anyone does in the Silmarillion. This is true, and every time I remember Araman is right there as an option it makes me insane. 

 He is the single most interesting leader in this whole book for that. I don’t think it can be overestimate what a feat of every kind of resources it is. The commitment it takes, the huge amount of - even social control you need to have, to keep so many people united to the same goal, when the goal means fighting another worse deity, and vengeance, and sublimating the grief of the many partings and direct religious trauma while surviving the Arctic and facing constant privation?

In a way it’s a good thing everyone is busy creating steel-strong community concepts while on the Ice, because otherwise it would be a gigantic nightmare to deal with that fallout. The fact that he maintains the Flight of the Noldor as a Chase of Morgoth, creating unity and a shared ideal to maintain - the fact that his host only splinters under Turgon’s direction? Insane. 

one aspect i wish more people understood about them

It is not even so much about Finwë, although of course it is also about Finwë. 

Being ambitious is not a crime! It is however a strong character trait, and a way to define one’s life when it’s very existence is a cause of philosophical debate. 

But politics, governing, those are Fingolfin’s true crafts, and Fëanor insisting on being always a step up on the dias and above him is maddening, and to a point feels like he is outright trying to stifle his calling on purpose.

Which he is, although perhaps not in a would-steal-your-forge-along- with-father’s-favoritism way. Not sure Fëanor cares to conceptualize leadership in such a crafting-equivalent way. 

This may be more suited to headcanons, but I do think the idea that a social role can have such a strong impetus, even spiritual value to someone is mostly Vanyar, and having no material evidence of work, doesn’t fit so well in the Noldor’s material culture point of view about singular purpose. 

one (or more) headcanon(s) i have about this character

Big tea drinker. Not much of a musician. Loves cool tones (Indis sorrows for the adorable emerald green and amethyst-bright onesies he refused to wear). Also a smith, as all Noldor princes are, but his interests are tied to infrastructures - steam-energy mostly, awfully boring stuff for most. Runs life according to a constantly updated list of priorities in his mind, that include meal times, coups, trips with each of their kids, divorce settlement negotiations with Anairë, etc. 

This made him the logistics genius the host in the Ice needed, and was in fact the kind of basilar confidence that led him to it - among other things, I'm sure he studied the journey to Valinor extensively. He knew it would be incredibly difficult in their circumstances, that many would not survive, that the loss would change them utterly; but he also knew it was not impossible, and therefore it ought to be made possible.

His confidence in himself in never entirely wrong, but sometimes misjudged; he knew exactly he would be able to land up to five wounds on Morgoth. The last two were a freestyle bonus :/

as well as

one character i love seeing them interact with

Fingon! Father and son, king and heir, bright flare of despair and the inheritor of hope - they are foils, they are parallels, and they are painfully, painfully aware of it. Would love to read a JSTOR article comparing their rules, up to the yearly tax reports. 

one character i wish they would interact with/interact with more

Lalwen (not a surprise!). The sort of loyalty involved is so interesting to me, but also the true that has to be based off true understanding and belief. They’re each other’s ride or die, and the idea of generally very magnificent and polis-minded Fingolfin being bffs with his irreverent younger sister is very amusing and fascinating.

(Also Turgon! Turgon and his disappearing act - well. He kind of commited treason, in a way? Treason-ish. It’s certainly a very pointed denial of Fingolfin’s direct authority, that’s for sure. Like. I crack up every time I think about this. Turgon must have been a nightmarish teenager, he’s very much like his father.)

one (or more) headcanon(s) i have that involve them and one other character

Had a hard time connecting with Finarfin. They enjoyed each other’s company, mostly! Had a very clear understanding of who the other one is, which was even about 60% correct. 

But the spark just isn’t there, and later on that’s something he grieves as much as Fëanor’s whole business. In part because idealized memories of Finarfin’s restful diplomacy are a succor in Beleriand, and in part because he has moments of clarity with some foresight, and sees Finarfin in a position of commander against Morgoth against his own. 

That’s part of his despair - he thinks the war against Morgoth will go so badly it will be taken up against the elves of Amanyar in their own terrain, that all the efforts of guarding and defending in defiance will be for nothing, and even fair Valinor will perish with only Indis’ son to defend the Noldor.

 This - is not correct. Finarfin fully takes the hosts of Valinor to Beleriand; but part of Morgoth’s power in battle is to take one’s worst fears and inflate them with the force of his own undeniable might. It gets him one dead Noldorin king, but also several painful scars, so really it’s a toss up on how well that works for him. 

[silvantransthranduiltrash]

Please give me more of the Míriel comes out of the halls, the moment Finwë dies. I’m on my knees begging you!

Have a delightful day.

i imagine that the moment Miriel comes out of the halls, she's simultaniously murderous, but also over whelmed, bc what tf is she supposed to do?

she's like the deadbeat mom (though she was dead so-)

i imagine she'd do 1 of two things

not mention her return to anyone and just... disappear into the background

in this scenario i imagine she makes her way to middle earth ( personally hc that Miriel doens't really like valinor at all). maybe she sneaks into fingolfin's host? i don't think he'd know all the elves that joined him soo.....

or maybe she's mor sensible and, because she's technically not been identified as a noldo (bc she wasn't there during the first massacre and she has silver hair, which is a more teleri like trait and no one suspects MIRIEL THERINDE to be out of the hall)

i don't think she reaches feanaro before he sails away with his host bc i imagine she takes a moment to get her barrings and figure out what she's going to do and then hear's about the massacre, and by the time she arrives she's too late.

like i said before, Miriel doesn't strike me as the kind of elf that's all that bothered by the incident, not because she's heartless but bc she's a cuivienen elf and bc she will always prioritize her family over anyone else.

2. the other thing i can see happening is her (begrudgingly) staying in valinor in order to take controll there. sure, it might not be the nicest move but she's the MOTHERFUCKING QUEEN OF THE NOLDO

YOU REALLY THINK FINWE BECAME KING ON HIS OWN AND SHE'S JUST THE WIFE?!? NO MA'AM.

if anyone has a claim on that throne it's her, thank you.

she's about to make her re-embodiment everyone's problem. (you can see where feanaro get's it from)

now, her taking over the remaining noldo does make things more difficult bc, again, feanaro does not have the best rep atm. but god damnit, no way she's loosing against the third son and fifth child that had no interest in leading.

plus, i refuse to believe that she didn't have her own supporters when she was still alive that stayed in valinor bc they're only gonna respect miriel therinde, or someone who also survived life at the lack, fuck you. they're not following some greenhorn warrior that's to big for his britches to their completely avoidable death, thank you. (sorry feanaro, but you were not made for middle earth. he's a lowkey rich kid that thought he could make it on his own (tbf, most valinor born noldo thought that, hence why they fucked up so many times))

of course in this scenarios, the moment Miriel catches wind of shit going tits up in Berilian, she mobelizes her army (bc Morgoth is out there, fuckers, and you're an idiot if you think that bitch isn't gonna go after valinor the moment he's got ME) and heads to Beriliand. she's got a score to settle with that MotherFucker.

[imakemywings]

You have some of the best takes on the events that happened in Silmarillion and I wanted to know your opinion/stance on something. Do you consider Fingolfin an 'usurper' when Feanor and Finwe left in exile? Because as someone new in the fandom (there's honestly a lot to unpack), so many interpretations/takes believe he was actually trying to usurp Feanor (*sighs* typical feanorian apologists/followers). I myself didn't see him as a usurper, I thought he was taking the initiative to become a leader because his father (I understand Finwe was well-loved more than Indis, but he pisses me off on so many levels, dude was so bad at being a dad, he should've never desire for more children if he's going to neglect them in the end) joined Feanor (eww favoritism) in exile and that left Tirion kingless. So why were people whining that he was a 'usurper'? I'll never get that.

Aw thank you, I'm glad you enjoy them! (*/ω＼*) This book really gets my brain whirring. There is definitely a lot to unpack, and my views on events and characters has absolutely changed in the last two years since I first read the book and have had more time to re-read it and reflect.

Fingolfin as a usuper is a fanon notion and it's not one I buy into. I think it goes hand-in-hand with the take that Feanor and Fingolfin are both equally responsible for the state of their relationship, which is not true. Feanor began this, Feanor escalated it, and Feanor was the first to bring weapons and deadly threats into it. Even if Fingolfin at times retaliated or started squabbles of his own, I still see Feanor as the primary instigator of their "rivalry," particularly considering it's noted that he also doesn't like Finarfin (it's just that he sees Fingolfin, as Indis' oldest son, as a greater threat, so Fingolfin gets more of his (negative) attention).

Going under a cut because as usual I rambled lol

However, I don't really agree that Finwe was a notably terrible father. I mean certainly you can read that into it, it's just not how I prefer to read it. Finwe made mistakes, as many parents in Silm did, but I don't think he didn't love his other children or that he obviously and outright preferred Feanor to the others, and I don't see any evidence that he neglected Indis' kids. I think he followed Feanor into exile because he felt very strongly Feanor had been wronged by the Valar and wanted to make a statement about it, and perhaps he felt he needed to be even more vocal in taking Feanor's side throughout his life because of what happened with Miriel (particularly given Feanor's tendency to view himself as the victim already). It is also relevant to note I think that they were most likely all adults when this happened, so it's not that he was abandoning minor children.

Was it irresponsible to leave Tirion kingless? Yeah, totally. Right after their crown prince was exiled for publicly threatening the life of his own family member? Bound to be a chaotic time in the city (relative to the past, not to things to come :')) Finwe is someone who I can see being a little myopic--he's not always good at seeing alternative perspectives once he's staked his own out and it causes him not to see the consequences that might come of his actions. But character flaws like this are what make them interesting to me, because it makes me curious how one as beloved as Finwe nevertheless ends up making several crucial mistakes that help set the stage for the rebellion of the Noldor.

As to Fingolfin, I think his willingness to forgive Feanor--and Feanor's tacit rejection, or at least failure to accept--says a lot about the state of their relationship. Now you could argue Fingolfin was just doing a PR move--even that he knew or suspected Feanor would not accept his forgiveness, which would make Feanor look completely unreasonable next to Fingolfin--but I tend to think he was genuine, because I think Tolkien would have said or hinted if he'd done it with an eye towards his own image.

First, when Feanor is first brought before the Valar for judgement for threatening Fingolfin's life, and it is revealed that he has been influenced by Melkor, there's this:

"...and Mandos said to him: '...for twelve years thou shalt leave Tirion where this threat was uttered...But after that time this matter shall be set in peace and held redressed, if others will release thee.' Then Fingolfin said in answer: 'I will release my brother.' But Feanor spoke no word in answer, standing silent before the Valar."

Even here, where Feanor is on trial for drawing a weapon on him--which has NEVER happened in Tirion--Fingolfin still refers to Feanor as his brother, and Feanor does not acknowledge it. Fingolfin, if he truly wanted to usurp Feanor, could have easily refused to release Feanor or make amends, and perhaps Feanor would have then been subject to longer banishment or other additional punishment. But he doesn't seem to hesitate to offer his release.

Then, the moment on Taniquetil when Manwe calls them all to the home of the Valar:

"Nevertheless he [Feanor] met Fingolfin before the throne of Manwe, and was reconciled, in word; and Fingolfin set at naught the unsheathing of the sword. For Fingolfin held forth his hand, saying: 'As I promised, I do now. I release thee, and remember no grievance.' Then Feanor took his hand in silence; but Fingolfin said: 'Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us.' 'I hear thee,' said Feanor. 'So be it.'"

This encounter follows a similar structure to the first: Fingolfin offers forgiveness, Feanor neither accepts nor openly rejects it. Once again, Fingolfin had his life threatened by Feanor's tantrums; he has every right here to be angry and withhold his forgiveness, but he doesn't. Not only does he release Feanor from the consequences of his actions, he really seems to be trying to heal the bond between them. Again, you can disbelieve that he's genuine here--but I read this as sincere, and I think Tolkien would've told us if it wasn't, or even if Fingolfin had ulterior motives in addition to wanting to heal this divide.

The only time during Feanor's life when Fingolfin really competes with him is during the Flight of the Noldor. Fingolfin leads the larger host of the Noldor to Alqualonde, but this occurs by choice of the Noldor, not because Fingolfin was trying to steal Feanor's following. He comes along only because he doesn't want to leave those who would follow Feanor to Feanor's whims, given how unreasonable and unpredictable he's been lately, and more of the Noldor are willing to follow Fingolfin than to follow Feanor. He could have also chosen to remain behind in Tirion, where he could have made a very easy claim on the throne--but he goes along, because he's convinced it's the right thing to do.

Part of the point of Feanor's mindset in Aman is that it was unfounded, until his own actions seem to give him confirmation he was right. If Fingolfin really had been gunning for his position, then Feanor was not paranoid, and his fears were not unfounded, and to me that undermines a central pillar of the pre-Darkening situation in Tirion, which is that Feanor was terrified of something that would never come, which Melkor took advantage of by making him believe it was coming. Feanor is afraid that Fingolfin will take his place--and by Feanor's own actions Fingolfin ends up ruling in Tirion. But Feanor doesn't see that connection in his madness--he sees only that what he feared has come to pass, even just temporarily.

"With him into banishment went his seven sons...Thither also came Finwe the King, because of the love he bore to Feanor; and Fingolfin ruled the Noldor in Tirion. Thus the lies of Melkor were made true in seeming, though Feanor by his own deeds had brought this thing to pass..."

A key phrase here is lies of Melkor. Melkor LIED when he told Feanor that Fingolfin wanted to take his place. He saw Feanor's fears and insecurities and found some lies that Feanor would be all too willing to believe, and made sure they were whispered into Feanor's ears, so that he would take them as truth.

All of this says to me that Fingolfin had no designs on the throne, that Feanor imagined or created their rivalry himself, and that Melkor simply took advantage of Feanor's irrational fears which he had never put to bed after his father's remarriage.

So to sum up this whole thing: No, I don't buy "Fingolfin the Usurper."

[undercat-overdog]

In “Dwell in Death’s Shadow” you have a Maedhros who is of the opinion that elves shouldn’t bring children into the world when they may experience extreme hardship. In canon, Aegnor was of the same opinion because of the war and so refused to marry Andreth, despite the fact that he loved her. Do you think that this type of opinion was more popular amongst the Noldor vs the Sindar and other non-Noldor elves? What is your opinion of Aegnor and Andreth? I always thought that it was sorta unfair that the one canon male-elf and female-human pairing in canon didn’t get their (sorta) happy ending of being together. Even though Aegnor was always likely to die in the first age anyways. I wonder if Aegnor was motivated by the fear of having mortal children in a land with an undefeated Morgoth.

Thanks for the ask, anon! Always love asks, and love procrastinating. Fair warning, I didn't actually reread the Athrabeth before answering; it's been a few months since I read it.

Link to the fic for the curious: it involves bb Celebrimbor eavesdropping on Maedhros, Curufin, and Mrs Curufin talking about his existence.

Do you think that this type of opinion was more popular amongst the Noldor vs the Sindar and other non-Noldor elves?

I think it was more common among the Exilic Noldor who had come from Aman, but both Aegnor and the Maedhros in the fic have an opinion about it that is unusual even in that group. We know there were lots of elves born in First Age Beleriand, many from Noldo/Sinda unions, and there wasn't an active war at the time either.

The time between the Aglareb and the Bragollach was mostly peaceful. It was a watchful peace, a frozen conflict, with the occasional skirmish, but a peace nonetheless. It's not 400 years of constant battles, and when Fingolfin proposes restarting active conflict and attacking Angband, and only Aegnor and Angrod are in favor; the sons of Feanor are the loudest in opposition. And: Thus the designs of Fingolfin came to naught, and the land had peace yet for a while.

Finrod in the Athrabeth does saythat "This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child", but his statement contradicts what we see in canon: there are weddings and children born during the Watchful Peace, the time that the Athrabeth takes place. But Finrod is explaining Aegnor's reasoning to Andreth and trying to bring her closure.

I think if I were writing the story now... I don't know how I would? In that I think my conception of Maedhros has changed and I'm not sure if he'd feel as strongly about not having children in Beleriand as he does there. (The Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed. But because the land was fair and their kingdoms wide, most of the Noldor were content with things as they were, trusting them to last)

I wonder if Aegnor was motivated by the fear of having mortal children in a land with an undefeated Morgoth.

Oh hmm, fear of mortal children in particular? I'm not sure, anon; interesting question! I do think that mortality is the default of half-elves (it's specifically Earendil, Elwing and their line that has the choice, and if Aegnor and Andreth had had children, they would have been mortal - certainly it was before the Valar considered the question).

I do think kids would have been a fear of Aegnor's. Or at least it would be reasonable to think it was a fear of his: we know "[Angrod and Aegnor] dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought."

I always thought that it was sorta unfair that the one canon male-elf and female-human pairing in canon didn’t get their (sorta) happy ending of being together.

It is unfair! Someone smarter than me - I don't remember where I saw it so unfortunately can't credit - pointed out how Aegnor and Andreth are both very entwined in their own culture and people, unlike the Big Three elf/human romances, where the human half of the pairing is separated from humanity (Aragorn the least so, but he was raised in an elven settlement). Whereas Andreth is not that, holding not just a culturally important role but being a keeper of her people's knowledge and history (she shows up a couple other places in the Legendarium disconnected from Aegnor, including as the author of a prophecy). Aegnor likewise does not detach himself from his people.

I wonder about Andreth's death. She would have been in her 90s at the Bragollach, so if she were still alive, she would have almost certainly died in it.

One interesting thing: iirc we don't actually know what Finrod advocated for with Aegnor. When he talks to Andreth about Aegnor's motivations, he's talking for his brother, not for what he felt himself. I'd be curious to see something that posited that Finrod thought Aegnor should pursue a relationship.

[actual-bill-potts]

hi! i just wanted to drop by and say, i think your last prompt fic rewired the chemistry in my brain. i've been rotating that interaction between finarfin and olwe in my mind for hours now. that's probably the best take i saw on them & and on why finarfin didn't return immediately after the first kinslaying. that was amazing and your writing is wonderful

also i'm in love with your "and all our towers cast down" fic, with your portrayal of finrod and his trauma, it's honestly fascinating

hope you're having a good day/night <3

omg tysm for this incredibly kind message!!!! it literally made my entire day. tbh i didn't expect much of a response to that ficlet bc it was such a struggle to write - Aegnor and Angrod are not characters I think about often and Alqualondë is so odd narratively to me bc it feels like it should be a major turning point for everyone but it kind of...isn't? So this was my best attempt at making it make sense in my own mind. I need to write a full meta post on the subject soon haha to put my thoughts in order. I'm so glad you liked it!! Though I don't really write about them much, Olwë and Finarfin are such interesting characters to me so I'm glad they came through properly.

And thank u so so much!! i have absolutely adored writing towers, it's so much fun to explore the character dynamics and really dive into leithian and make everyone's choices make more sense in my own brain. in my mind finrod's death is really what sealed the doom of nirnaeth, cuz politically fingon lost so much with finrod. so i am really looking forward to exploring the ramifications of his survival and how the events of tol-in-gaurhoth affected him. i really see his role in leithian as him finally snapping and being like I'm going to help this person I love no matter the cost. I've always headcanoned that a big part of the reason he went to middle earth was to support both the nolofinwions and his own people who loved feanor. and in middle-earth he's had to make the hard pragmatic choice so many times, between splitting from turgon pretty much forever, letting his brothers go to the front lines, sending balan's people to the front lines, constantly smoothing things over between the Fëanorions, the nolofinwions, the doriathrim, the bëorians, and the laiquendi, and at the point of leithian he's just seen so much of that work burst into flames around him and he basically pulls a fingolfin. he's like fuck what happens to me, fuck what happens to my kingdom: thingol is insane, two of my brothers are dead, pretty much all of balan's people that i worked so hard to help are dead except this one guy who is determined to go on a suicide mission. so im gonna help balan's descendant and no one can stop me.

But now he's survived and he's going to have to reckon with...all of that...with fingon who just lost his father to a similar impulse, and with orodreth, and with himself. and of course sauron's mind games didn't help him any. so he's in a pretty bad headspace right now and is going to have to deal with a lot of the losses he's just been shoving away and not looking at up until now.

Anyway sorry for the ramble! I'm just very passionate abt this project lol.

Also, I know you like Finarfin, and this ask made literally my whole entire day, so here's a Finarfin+Finrod snippet for you! I hope you enjoy <3

That morning, Arafinwë's eldest son does not so much walk into the dining room as swim. He is encased in layers upon layers of swishing fabric that billow before and after him, making it necessary to sway carefully to avoid tripping; his hair, loosed and straightened, falls nearly to his feet, and keeps tangling about his knees; and he looks inordinately proud of himself.

Arafinwë glances at Eärwen in bewilderment, wondering if wardrobe-related madness is a symptom among the Returned that he has forgotten about. She looks just as confused as he feels, if significantly more amused.

"Good morning, Finrod!" he says aloud. "Er - is there a special occasion?"

Finrod moves carefully to his chair, then sweeps his massive skirts behind him, swiftly moves the chair out, and sinks into it with a whoosh. He looks up cheerfully.

"Good morning, Atya, Ammë!" he says, beaming. "No special occasion - this is cultural. It is the latest in Vanyarin fashion!"

"Is it?" Arafinwë asks weakly. "It seems - difficult to move in."

"Oh, yes," Finrod responds, grinning even wider. The effect, in conjunction with the sparkling, billowing skirts and tangled hair, is nearly blinding. "That's the point, you see! It is intended to emulate the care with which the Valar must move, encased in the forms they take to walk among us. I thought the idea was fascinating. And the fabrics they use are so beautiful!"

"Ah - that is indeed interesting," Arafinwë responds, wondering who among his mother's people he will have to take aside later for a quick word on not telling Finrod about Vanyar fads. "Surely it is not intended to go out in...?"

"Oh, but of course it is!" Finrod says. "I plan to go out to market as soon as we are done breakfasting, to experience the full effect. Would you like to come? It could be quite interesting."

"Alas, your mother and I must hold court soon after breakfast, and cannot join," Arafinwë says without much regret.

"You must tell us about the experience, though!" Eärwen chimes in, sounding as if she is suppressing laughter.

"Ah, very well," Finrod says cheerfully; and after he has breakfasted he does indeed rise carefully - barely snatching his garment away from the remnants of jelly on his plate before it can be stained - and swim out of the room.

Eärwen and Arafinwë look at each other and burst into laughter.

"The skirts!" Eärwen gasps, "The folds! It will take him an hour to exit the palace!"

"Oh dear," Arafinwë says at last, wiping his eyes. "Oh dear. Was he like this before?"

"He was!" Eärwen exclaims. "Do you remember, he used to creep into your father's closet and try on his best robes? Then he would swan about the halls, trying not to trip."

"I had forgotten," Arafinwë admits, a smile curving his lips, "but you are quite right. He always did love beautiful clothing. I only hope that his pursuit of high Vanyarin fashion will not send him home with a broken collarbone."

"It is so good to have our son home," Eärwen says abruptly. "Our children gave me such joy. I had nearly forgotten."

Arafinwë reaches across the table to take her hand. "It is," he agrees. The image of Finrod leaving the room, having to angle his hips to fit through the door and bundling his hair about himself so as not to trip, floats across his mind and he chuckles again. "Do you remember when bustles were all the rage, and Artanis got caught on a turn of the stairway? She was furious."

Eärwen's laughter is a welcome peal, more light of heart than he had heard in years. "As I recall, it was Finrod who convinced her of their merits in the first place."

"She did not take his advice on fashion again, after that!" Arafinwë agrees. He cannot stop smiling as he begins to gather up the breakfast things and neaten his own robes. It feels as if his heart is singing within him: Our son is home. He is home. He is home!

[tanoraqui]

Hello! If you are still babysitting the printer or in the mood to answer questions about your OCs, then would you please tell me more about coolest person ever Rawen? Uh, let me think of some questions, answer any of these or just if you have something else you want to share about her. . . Can she cook? Favorite color? Tell me about a time she saved Maedhros’ life? What does she think of Elrond when she meets him in Aman?

I am not, thank god. But I still love to talk.

I don't know if Rawen can cook... She likes to fish, and can do some simple but fantastic things with fresh-caught fish and a handful of herbs over a campfire.

Her favorite color is maroon. This is convenient in the Second and Third Age, post-re-embodiment, when she wants to wear just enough red to visually communicate "I'm not a Fëanorian(TM) anymore, but I'm not not either."

She was the one who finally pulled Maedhros back from the battlefield in Dagor Bragollach, when he'd been holding the gates all but single-handedly for seven days and seven nights, and when the Enemy fell back, stalking around looking for more. He wasn't badly wounded; she already was, in fact; she had to pick her way through corpses and cinders while limping on a cut hamstring and coughing from dragonsmoke. But nobody else quite dared confront their lord in those terrible weeks, however much they feared he would collapse from exhaustion and/or burn himself to ashes from the inside out like his father.

(She never fully healed from those wounds, perhaps because she didn't rest them. She died in the Nirnaeth 18 years later.)

I've mostly thought about Rawen after her re-embodiment, when she basically appoints herself whip of the regrowing Fëanorian faction (mostly re-embodied elves like her who aren't as single-minded about this as they used to be but this is still where some combination of loyalties and ideals lie, younger elves with a thirst for rebellion). Rawen ideally wants a Person to follow, but lacking a sufficient Person she'll take up a Cause; her Cause now is Peace and Cooperation in Tirion (and Everywhere Else if Possible). Arafinwë is good for this - it's his cause, too - so, while even after the War of Wrath he's kinda placid as a king for her taste, she's happy to work with him and nominally serve him.

4,500~ years later, Rawen is comfortably accustomed to being a key political player in her own right, rather than as Maedhros's right hand. She and Fingolfin both, separately, go out for drinks with Arafinwë periodically and complain about the other. (Arafinwë thinks this is funny, and regards it as one of his key kingship duties for maintaining peace and cooperation among the Noldor. He's right.) The Fëanorian faction, as they're still called, has grown and changed far beyond what it used to be, but at its heart are still an assortment of former kinslayers, most of whom served at Himring. 500 years of constant exposure to focussed white flame can make a permanent impression on a fëa.

Like many, in the late Third Age when it's commonly rumored in Aman that most people still likely to Sail will be doing so as soon as this last Sauron issue is wrapped up, Rawen's attitude toward Elrond is eager curiosity with a readied but pending-judgement communist!Bugs Bunny "our child/lord" meme. Imagine you wake up after 1500-odd years being dead and the handful of friends/former employees who survived everything, or at least survived longer than you are like, "Yeah, so, we did...kill people...a bunch more people...we helped adopt some kids, though! They turned out great!" And then everyone else who Sails or re-embodies for the next 4500-odd years confirms that. If Elrond lives up to his reputation, Rawen is totally ready to add him to her short list of people for whom she'd throw her/the Fëanorian faction's political weight behind should they ever ask, for the sake of what could have been if only they'd been Good at the same time they were Great.

(The short list is, in rough order: Nerdanel, Celebrimbor, Celechwes, Fingon.)

Then, just a few years before Sauron's fall, Findis makes her own famous Oath (CFtN Ch.15), holding her own fëa for ransom of the release of Fëanor and all his sons from Mandos; and Manwë declares that the Eldar will decide her and their fate the Eldar overall decide, yes, we'll let them come back; and then when Elrond arrives, he brings Maglor...

Rawen is dealing with political fallout, and trying to anticipate the next political fallout, and trying to arrange the circumstances of the next political fallout, and trying to figure out how she feels about this - how she should feel about this, how she does feel about this...

Righteous Disappointment, is what she more or less concludes that she feels. That she will feel, when she meets Maedhros again. How could he. How could he. She'd believed in him...

No, Righteous Disappointment is how she wishes she could feel, but she's too honest with herself - she probably would've counseled the attack on Doriath, as a best hope (the Enemy would've done it if they hadn't!). She doesn't think she would've counseled the attack on Sirion, but she's talked with people who were there, what those late days were like with darkness spreading and bitter, angry desperation in every breath of air and sip of water. She remembers much the same from the not-days after the Darkening. She knows she wouldn't have turned away at Sirion, much less turned her coat.

She adopts Elrond almost offhand. There's a lot going on. Maglor is...ill, basically, half-mad from isolation and guilt. He hadn't been her lord, but she'd respected him for the earnest effort he put into their cause, so even if she's not sure how much she wants to still be affiliated with the literal House of Fëanor, rather than a consciously idealized concept of the House of Fëanor, she's glad to see him and does what she can to help him heal. Mostly he seems to heal by hanging around Eärendil, seemingly without intent to claim the Silmaril, which is... (ignites a hope in Rawen's chest which she hadn't realized it hurt to be without).

Rawen is pretty confident that her conflicted feelings, plus the distance of time, shake out to sympathetic neutrality re: the literal House of Fëanor. Well, re: Maedhros, and about half the others. She's more Unimpressed with Fëanor himself, and Celegorm and Curufin she'd frankly throw off a cliff for their little spectacle at Nargothrond. If Nargothrond had joined the Union of Maedhros in force, if Doriath had joined the Union in force...

What actually happens, when she meets Maedhros again, is that she bursts into tears and apologizes for losing Himring, which he'd left in her charge when he rode to what became the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. Funnily enough, this is roughly the same emotional sequence of events that happened in the various reunions of Fëanor's sons with their father.

After that initial burst of emotion, she does calm down, and... Okay, listen. She was going to rationally re-evaluate him. She does rationally re-evaluate him. She still mourns what the Noldor could've been when they were fierce and fire-led...but they are fierce and fire-led still, just tempered with long ages of peace rather than swift and savage intent. And Maedhros re-embodied is also tempered with long ages of peace and thought, the wisdom of utmost regret and slow, slow, still-incomplete self-forgiveness...

So, y'know, a few centuries later...when all the Oath-takers including Fëanor himself have returned and proven themselves capable of peacefully sharing a continent - and sometimes even family reunions! - with Gil-Estel...and nothing more dramatic has happened than the assembled line of Curufinwës blowing up the Alchemists' Quarter... Rawen teams up with Satarissë Finrodiel, Celechwes and Arafinwë himself to get Maedhros elected High King of the Noldor. The Fëanorians are back, baby!

(Maedhros was not consulted. To be fair, Arafinwë literally never is, either. For instance, his blissful vacation only lasts one term - but the point is made. Peace, cooperation and re-unification in Tirion, and maybe even everywhere else!)

[nin-varisse]

🔥🤔🔮 for the ask game!

Thank you so much for asking! Here we go:

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🔥

My Silm hot take is that Fingolfin isn't the hero people make him out to be. In my opinion, he's a hothead who is barely any better than Feanor, he's just better at hiding it. First of all, he willingly participated in the first kinslaying. He could have turned away, just like Finarfin did. Even if he really thought that the Teleri attacked first, he didn't need to kill them "in retaliation". Furthermore, he didn't need to cross the Helcaraxe, he risked and sacrificed all those lives just to follow a person who had wronged him. He could have stayed in Aman. Most importantly for me his last stand against Morgoth wasn't heroic at all. It was an act of pure desperation and even if it left Morgoth physically (and ig psychologically) scarred, it also left the Noldor with an inexperienced king without any particular desire to rule (love my boy Fingon but he clearly prefers being a hero over being a ruler). He got himself killed by being too rash just like Feanor.

Yea, I don't really like him.

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🤔

Oooh I have so many headcanons, you'll get my favourite one about Glorfindel! Glorfindel used to carve little figurines and dolls out of wood while being away on patrols and he gifted them to all the children of Gondolin making him super popular with them (uncle Glorfy). Elrond still has one of those wooden dolls hidden away in a drawer in Imladris that originally belonged to Eärendil.

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🔮

I never actually thought about this. I love mysteries and making up my own theories or discussing them with others, so I don't really know what I would ask the professor. I guess I would like to know exactly what magical/eldritch powers dragons have because Glaurung did erase Nienor's memories (because he knew her name?) and I wonder why that is and what else they could do. Also what exactly is Goldberry? I always wondered if she's a kind of Maia.

Wait, scratch that, what I actually want to ask the professor is: WHY DID YOU CALL THE NOLDOR GNOMES?!

Everyone reading, please feel free to ask any other questions from the silm ask game!

[ramoth13]

Hi, I saw your post about giving the Amazon LOTR show a chance. Wondering what your thoughts were on the showrunners saying they're trying to write "the novel that Tolkien never wrote"? Because to me that makes them seem extremely arrogant. IMO it's not possible to separate Amazon from the directors of TROP, because the whole thing is Bezos' brainchild- he hired the showrunners to make the show for him. It's not like he just happens to be financing it. Just my two cents, wonder what you think.

Mae g'ovannen, mellon nin!

Hey! Thanks for the comment, I sincerely appreciate it. We need more friendly discussion in places like this.

So, I think that quote is something that should be given context, because without context it does sound bad. The thing is, Tolkien never wrote the story of the Numenorians and the forging of the rings. But not because he didn't want to. When he originally set out to write the Lord of the Rings, he wanted to publish The Lord of the Rings AND a version of what we now know is The Silmarillion, side by side. However, the publishers took one glance at his ultra unwieldy, freaky history book and said absolutely not. He never got to tell that story, but not because he didn't want to. Christopher T, on the other hand, goes through the writings and publishes (posthumously) a highly edited and revised version, but again, this is the history book we all know and love but not what the Professor would have done (he was constantly changing things and making huge edits until his death).

Now that's not to say the book isn't a masterpiece, I wrote my master's thesis on it and I will absolutely say it's my favorite book in the world, but that doesn't change the fact that Chistopher had to heavily edit and change what was written to make the coherent story we know. The Professor simply left too many loose ends and changes without revisions to earlier sections (hence the 12 volumes of The Histories of Middle-Earth).

Tolkien's lifelong dream was to use the Silmarillion as a roadmap to write the novels of the stories we read about in that book of history, which is where Christopher got the materials to "finish" The Fall of Gondolin, The Lay of Luthian, and The Children of Hurin. But one novel that is conspicuously absent from that trio is the story of Numenor and the forging of the rings.

Thus, when they say that they are making "the novel that Tolkien never wrote" they mean that this is supposed to be a down to earth telling of the Numenorian story and the story of the forging of the rings, like Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit books. However, I don't think they mean that they are going to do something that the professor was incapable of doing, rather they are trying to do what he was unable to. He had so many stories started and left undone (one wonders at what he could have written given time). I would have loved to read his version of the Fall of Fingolfin, but alas...

As for Bezos's brainchild, I think there are two things to consider. First, the Tolkien estate sold the rights to this story (with extremely heavy constrictions/demands on what could and could not be done with the story) for an insane sum of money. The most, in fact, for any TV show ever made. The fact is, the way it was set up, there were very few people in the world who could have even attempted to make this show. Considering the price tag, only one of a few dozen could even try. If it wasn't Amazon, it would have been one of the other mega-studios, and other studios did have the chance to outbid Amazon in the purchase. Now someone might say "No one should have made this into a TV show at all" which is an argument I understand, but not one I have much to say on. And the second thing to consider is that the Tolkien estate could have said no (and has, many, many times before).

Now, money does not automatically equal a good show and there are many things that could go wrong, I'll grant you. But the one thing this show has going for it is that this story (more than all of the previous Tolkien adaptations that came before it, Peter Jackson's movies included) is heavily controlled by Tolkienian elements (the Tolkien estate has the power to veto any script elements, it's in the contract, then there are the scholars on deck as mentioned, etc.). Though Tom Shippey left the project because of a breach of contract involving an NDA fairly recently, I know he spent much time with the project and had a hand in many of the elements we will see. He's an incredible Tolkien scholar and just one of a few on board.

Bezos, with all of the money in the world (almost literally), cannot control the story and that gives me hope.

With that hope in mind, I recently read an article that many Tolkien scholars and fans (including The Tolkien Professor himself, Corey Olsen) were able to view a small portion of the show and I'll let you see what they said for yourself here,

All of that to say, I'm not saying this show will be good, I have no idea, in truth. But I think (and hope, oh how I hope) that there are enough people working on the show that realize these stories will not be taken lightly by the fans and longtime middle-earth enthusiasts and therefore, will do all that they can to do it right.

But again, it's all about hope. As one famous poet once said, "hope is the thing with feathers"

Here's to hoping it flies high above the Shadows of Mordor and the smoke rising from the dungeons and forges Angband.

Ná Elbereth veria le, ná elenath dín síla erin rád o chuil lín.

~ ramoth13

[undercat-overdog]

Fanyarenna for the snippets thing!

Thank you for the ask!

~

“Why haven't you gone to Eressea?” Celebrían asked.

Celebrimbor shrugged. “I reside mostly with my grandparents to the north of Alqualonde along the coast; many of Círdan's folk settled there. It's... easier, to be among my old family. It took a while to readjust to life, for the soul must learn a new body, and I haven't been back all that long. I wouldn't mind seeing Eressea, but I do think it would be kindest not to show my face in Alqualonde, not yet.”

“Why not?” she said, before she realized what he meant.

“I didn't say myself, I said my face. I have learned here that I am made in the very image of Feanor. I had known I had his look, but it never struck home till I met my father's mother. She cried to see me, before realizing I was neither Feanor nor Curufin, but the grandson she'd never met. Indis is lovely and Finarfin as kind as anything, but how could either look at my face and not see the man who held a sword to Fingolfin's neck?”

Celebrían frowned. “You look like you, not like him. Or he has your face – did you tell your grandmother that?”

He kicked at her playfully. “Chronology doesn't work that way, 'Rían – I thought you understood time's arrow; will we need to teach you numbers again, too? But... it is strange for me. Feanor was either a mythical figure, at once someone I wanted to surpass and avoid becoming, or just the name of my father's father, as Galadhon is but a name to you.”

He sighed. “In Lindon after the War” – for Celebrimbor, like all who had lived through the sinking of Beleriand, there was only one War – “none of that mattered, who you were and what you had done. Oh, people still knew, still cared – there were plenty of tensions, even hatreds – but more important still was the resolve and joy that bound us together, those who stayed in Middle-earth: it was always we, Sinda and Noldo alike, we who chose those shores, and they who left. I was no longer Curufin Feanorion's son, but Master Celebrimbor, scientist and smith, not a dispossessed prince. Here I'm either a name in the genealogy of the fell House of Feanor or the fool who was taken in by Morgoth's lieutenant.”

He looked at her sharply. “It's the same for you, no?” She nodded and he went on, “Here you're Artanis the Rebel's tortured daughter, not Celebrían daughter of Celeborn, botanist and cartographer and glasswright, not a daughter only but a wife and a mother and a friend.”

Celebrían twisted her face in agreement. “If it helps, if someone mentions 'Curufinwe', I think of you first. And then I pretend to be confused and ask why they speak of my friend like that. 'What do you mean?' I say, 'the Curufinwe I know swore no Oath.’”

He laughed at her. “Liar! Did you even know my mother-name before you started looking over Ost-in-Edhil's formal correspondence? Still, how I would love to see that! Maybe we should do more of that: gossip about Círdan and Gil-Galad and Oropher and look at people strangely when they don't know whom we're talking about - and don't be afraid to confuse me either: you knew them all much longer than I did.”

“Oh, there are fewer people that you don't know than you might think – Oropher did die, yes, and Amdír too, but Thranduil is ruling Mirkwood now, or was when I left – oh, I do suppose that is one thing you don't know, that the Greenwood is slowly being corrupted...” - he made a dismayed noise at that - “and yes, Thranduil is still fond of his wine, even more so as King than he was as Prince! Hmm. There are the Istari, the wizards the Valar sent, though I only know two of them well, and another two not at all. Various Durins, of course, and many others of the Hadhodrim. Oh, and Glorfindel of Gondolin has returned from the dead, but that's it – aside, of course, from my children, and trust me! You've heard plenty about them!”

“And the Edain I suppose,” she added as an afterthought, “though in truth I only gave them my attention because Elrond does. Finrod wants to know all about them, and seems vaguely bothered that I don't share his fascination, although since he has made me converse with him in both Adûnaic and Westron, which he knows mostly through books, he shouldn't complain – don't let on that you know any Mannish tongues or you'll never hear him speak Sindarin again! But I rather like your plan. Next dinner party we go to, I shall fill you in on everything Ereinion did that irked Father and Morgoth take those who look askance!”