undercat-overdog

[undercat-overdog]

TOLKIEN 👏 HIMSELF 👏 REFERRED 👏 TO 👏 FEMALE ELVES 👏 AS 👏 WOMEN

Can 2025 maybe be the year we as a fandom finally stop using the term 'she-elf', which was invented for the Jackson movies and comes across as intentionally derogatory?

Tolkien himself referred to female elves as 'women' or 'elven-women' or similar.

[undercat-overdog]

What are some headcanons that you have for the Vanyar? I wish Tolkien wrote more about them; it’s hard for me to get a good feel of their culture compared to the Noldor, Teleri, and Sindar. You seem to know a lot about canon so I thought I’d ask about any thoughts you may have. (Yes I know headcanons are not canon, but there’s so comparatively little written about them)

Thanks for the question, anon!

Oh man, all my thoughts about the Vanyar are pure headcanon. And most of those thoughts are actually @kazaera's thoughts; I really love their take on the Vanyar and they are totally the person to ask.

One broad thought, courtesy of the aforementioned Kaz, is that while the Tatyar and Nelyar split up into different groups from the very beginning but the two groups that made it to Aman seemed to stay as one (well, two, one of each), the Vanyar stayed together from the decision to leave for Aman and throughout the great journey... and then (this is where it moves from canon to headcanon) split to live in many different places in Aman and develop different cultures (and different languages; I have a conlang of one in my head, broadly sketched out). So there are Vanyar that live in plains and ones that live in jungles and a few that live in Valmar, with divergent lifestyles and languages. I think they'd still consider themselves one people, even if the word for their people - Minyar in Quen(d)ya - is pronounced differently by different people.

One minor headcanon, which is entirely my own, is that the Vanyar have eyes without any grey in them, instead brilliant browns and blues and greens, etc, (whereas the Tatyar and Nelyar always have grey eyes, sometimes blue-grey or violet-grey or green-grey, but always some grey). This is based in how the Vanyar are the group with divergent looks while the Tatyar and Nelyar are said to resemble each other physically (Quendi and Eldar, in which what distinguishes the Noldor from the Sindar is the Treeboost the Aman-born Exiles got and the LIght in their eyes, but how otherwise you couldn't tell by their looks). But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a mention somewhere of a Vanya having grey eyes, because Jirt. They don't in my head though.

[undercat-overdog]

Are you going to continue your Rings of Power reviews?

Yeah, hopefully. I do mean to write one for the last four episodes, but tbh, a lot has slipped my mind.

But in short: I don't think they were good. Aipilosse said the last two in particular felt like a movie with half the scenes missing, which sums up how I feel. I do think this season was better than last season, though.

[undercat-overdog]

Third and fourth episodes worse than the first two. Thoughts in no particular order.

General note: I have seen people say that RoP needed more time to develop and that studio pressures to make it faster paced hurt the show. No, what RoP needed was less time and ideally fewer storylines. Desperately need an editor. And no, this isn't a complaint about slow pacing. Its problem there is that pacing is inconsistent.

Other general note: the show has a major problem with timelines, both in its internal narration and how it fits with Tolkien canon. There are a bunch of third age elements popping up (Kings of Men burying their dead in the Barrowdowns? What Kings of Men!), but there are internal problems too, especially the disconnect between Isildur and Numenor (was Isildur in suspended animation for the time it took for Elendil to go from Mordor to the coast and then for not-Brego to travel all that way back?) There's no sense of time or distance.

Things I liked:

The spider fight at the beginning was fun! Nonsensical but very fun. Loved the gleaming spider eggs.

I like the evil Istar and his evil minions, even if the main minion dude stole his mask from General Grievous. I'm also really into the desert setting! It's new and unique.

Some of the set design is very nice. Numenor's is so pretty and I liked Tom's house, especially the star map on the ceiling.

I hope they're going for a romance with Isildur and what's-her-name. It's shallow but cute. If we must have a dead mother, I like how it was drowning and not childbirth or illness, especially in Numenor (though why the angst, Isildur, isn't the sea is always right?) I was meh on a lot of that storyline, but Isildur's cute and so is his horsemance.

Things I didn't like or were neutral on:

A minor sin, but I cannot get over how bad makeup is and has consistently been from the beginning. This time it's Saubranatar and the blond elf OC: their foundation is not the same shade as their skin and goes horribly with the wigs (blond elf OC desperately needs some purple conditioner, very brassy). At least in Bombadil they finally found a character for whom blush overload is appropriate.

Reallllly not a fan of the prosthetics either, especially with the new hobbits.

Still hate the hobbit storyline and now I have more to hate with it, in Bombadil.

I kinda wonder if they've gone to the longer hair because of all the backlash to the short hair lol.

The hobbits are looking for the promised land of Suzat? First, wtf. Second, Westron the language will not exist for a couple thousand years!

Why is we're-not-saying-he's-Gandalf the only character who has been naked so far? More than once!

Is a shot of orc baby the reason people wrote articles about how rop added morally complexity and greyness? Lol.

The Numenorean storyline is incoherent and terminally stupid. I realize that last season didn't leave them a great foundation: still terminally stupid. Why didn't the eagle talk? I do think Pharazon in particular has potential, but he's way underdeveloped.

What the hell is Theo's vest thing? They've moved into a (ruined) settlement and have running water, they no longer need to muck farm! Also I would like if the evil helmet haired kid never comes back. Cannot express how little I care about him or his and Arondir's stepdad angst. He and Isildur sure are monster magnets though.

Speaking of monsters, it felt like an rpg where the DM kept rolling for random monster encounters. In two episodes, we got spiders, Sarlacc creature, Eagles, Ent and Entwife, angry person-eating tree, barrowwights, I'm sure I'm missing something. Just randomly take shit and throw it in, doesn't matter if it fits, fans like references! It's pandering filler that doesn't advance the storyline.

Can we stop it with the PJ movie callbacks? I'm resigned to never getting away from his aesthetics, but all the recreations of different shots. I guess they took the Barrowwight look from Pirates of the Caribbean and not PJ?

We know she's an Entwife and not an Ent because she has flowers.

Lmao that is so much metal to make Rings and the mithril lump is not big. Is it homeopathic mithril? And for a show named after Rings, they sure don't spend a lot of time on them.

I have very little good to say about Celebrimbor and that storyline but it's a character and place I'm deeply invested in so I'll leave that be. On a couple neutral notes, Charles Edwards' acting is better than last season (where I was very not impressed) and I'm curious what they'll do with Elrond's antipathy towards the Three, given that he'll later end up bearing one.

The end credits song at the end of episode 4 was hilariously incongruent.

[undercat-overdog]

Did your Celebrimbor suspect Annatar of maybe not being honest with his history or motivations before the Sauron reveal? Ie - not really an emissary or a Maia of Aule anymore?

So yes and no. He definitely comes to suspect that Annatar wasn't honest about his past, or at least that Annatar hadn't told him the whole story, and also that Annatar was working of his own motives and will, not those of Aule's.

That said, Celebrimbor wouldn't have a problem with Annatar saying less than positive things about the Valar or about Valinor, nor about him no longer following Aule. My Celebrimbor has a quite negative opinion about the Valar in general (comes by it from both his parents, including his Sindarin mother; especially her actually) and sees no reason whatsoever to consider them authorities or a group to obey. So Annatar being the equivalent of Radagast or Saruman - sent to Middle-earth by the Valar, decided to go his own way and pursue his own motives - is perfectly fine with Celebrimbor, would probably make him trust Annatar's motives even more - after all, Celebrimbor isn't impressed with the Valar's attitudes towards Middle-earth. Annatar may have intimated as much even.

It never crossed his mind that Annatar might have once served Morgoth.

[undercat-overdog]

You working on any new/old writing projects currently?

I haven't much been, no, a combination of being busy with other stuff and disenchanted with this fandom. I hope to get back into it though. I would like to finish up Bones and Fuck Monastery and I have a quarter-written porny AU of Bones to work on.

[undercat-overdog]

Ok, thoughts on the first two episodes, and just the first two - it was late the night I saw them and my cowatcher and I were not up for the third. And now fourth ig, haven't watched that either.

I didn't think it sucked and it was noticeably improved from last season. The dialogue is now full of bland platitudes instead of shit like rocks sinking and that is a huge improvement! Overall, it wasn't bad but I wouldn't watch it were it not tied to An Interest of mine (in fairness, I'm not hugely into television as a medium, so getting me to watch something is a high bar to begin with).

I thought it was interesting how much of a break they tried to make between this season and the last. Guess Amazon Studios wasn't happy with the response and ratings.

Things I liked:

The Sauron intro. I do have some mild complaints (I was confused about how much time passed and think it could have been indicated by directing. I also would have thought it cool had he gone off to become the ruler and ruling line of the Southern Kingdom or whatever, which fits his general style) but I quite liked it. Halbrand really grew on me. Like delightful ooze, which leads to what I genuinely adore:

Slimeron!!! Oily worm Sauron is calculated exactly to my interests and specific specifications, zero complaints, excellent, perfect.

Sauron made friends with a doggo! I appreciate him being tortured too, always nice.

Nice Cirdan. Still not the ideal, which is Steve Toussaint as Corlys in HotD and if I ever write Cirdan he's going to have a seahorse insignia or something, but nice. I liked him a lot. I appreciate that they remembered he bore Narya.

I am not immune to pretty green clothing

I like giving the dwarves singing as a thing. Overall, I think the Dwarf storyline is my favorite? We'll see what I think when Numenor rolls around, hopefully less CW this season.

Soundtrack is good! I thought the sound mixing was better than last season too, music appropriately placed in the mix.

Overall I didn't mind watching it.

Things I didn't:

the hobbit plotline remains The Worst. I guess now they're cribbing from the Sand People in Star Wars instead of PJ? (Credit to Aipilosse for that comparison.) I liked the evil istar but everything else makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

Why did Saubrand remained clothed during torture? This show manages to be even less horny than the books themselves, which says a lot.

The "Light of the Eldar" being a fucking glowing tree is so stupid. I said last season that the whole fading plot reminded me of a video game quest (derogatory) and I stand by that (fetch an item for an npc and the elves will join your cause! Guess "knife-ears" wasn't the only thing they took from dragonage). I did like that they had Gil-galad sing though, appropriately elfy and the actor has a good voice.

yeah i still fucking hate this portrayal of Celebrimbor.

they are so Wrong about the Three. In every single way. It's not what makes me actively not want to watch (Hobbits and Gandalf in a desert and wtf how is that biome a short walk from the woodlands they were in before?), but I hate it. Might go into detail in a later post.

the character they are calling Galadriel is not Galadriel. She's fine as a character, but not that character. I forget whether it was Visitor or Aipi who first said that she should have been Celebrian, which would have been so much better: I'd have been a huge fan of that.

this is a me thing, but I really hate Adar. That type of character might be catnip to some, but I'm allergic. Otoh, he now has nice hair, approve.

Too much blush.

Things I can't complain about yet but am not looking forward to:

Tom Bombadil. Why are his clothes so drab and muted? And teaching we're nott-saying-he's-Gandalf-but-he-is magic? That's not how Tom works! Do I know how Tom works? No I don't, but I do know it's not like that.

Things they better have more of:

Slimeron

Dogs

Do you plan to watch the second season of Rings of Power?

Probably! It's not must see TV for me, but I'll likely watch at least the first episode. Curiosity, mostly.

[undercat-overdog]

[undercat-overdog]

Do you like celebrimbor x narvi ship? Do u ship them ?

No particular feelings either way and no, respectively. Dwarves don't do it for me, sorry anon.

[undercat-overdog]

Do you plan to watch the second season of Rings of Power?

Probably! It's not must see TV for me, but I'll likely watch at least the first episode. Curiosity, mostly.

[undercat-overdog]

So I was reading some of your older answers to questions about your fics when I became curious about something. Let’s pretend that there’s an AU where a more corruptible version of ‘Bones’ Celebrimbor accepts Sauron’s proposal to marry and rule with him. What would happen to Sauron if Celebrimbor were to die? (Let’s say in battle fighting for Sauron) Comparing it to Melian’s reaction to leave everything behind after Thingol’s death.

Hey anon! Thank you for the ask, and sorry for my delay in replying.

You know, I was thinking about it a while back and I definitely think there's a tack Sauron could have used that could have led to Celebrimbor's darker side coming through. I thought a bit a while back about how to do that and mostly they wouldn't work as an AU from that particular point in Bones (things like insidious mind control using the One, C being captured and through a mix of stockholm syndrome and wanting to make S's rule less horrible comes to participate - if you're curious about such AUs, simaetha on ao3 has some fantastic fic), but had Sauron framed it as less "let's rule the world together" and more "Gil-galad's not ambitious enough, you are, those less knowledgeable and skilled and smart as us 'wander here untaught', we need to raise them up, even if not all of them like it at first, etc." Basically the appeal he made to the Elves of Eregion in the Silm but upping the imperialism. Because Celebrimbor is prideful and is ambitious and does have a sense of superiority, and I definitely think it could be appealed to more.

Of course, Sauron didn't think he needed to hide his eventual plans, though he certainly planned to keep hiding his rather unique biography. He is also hiding his current extra-Eregion activities - he is at this point (c. SA 1200-1500) occasionally traveling around working on his evil empire. I like to imagine he sent back regular letters to Celebrimbor talking about how lovesick he is all the cool, definitely not evil-empire-related stuff he's seeing. Probably some rock samples or pressed flowers. He is being dishonest and deceiving Celebrimbor about a lot of stuff, but he is for the first time open and honest about his true goal in the proposal scene.

Anyways! In the scenario you propose, Sauron would react very, very poorly to Celebrimbor's death. Many people would die horribly. However he felt about Celebrimbor at the time - and I think he would probably end up respecting him less and Celebrimbor becoming somewhat less important in his life, thought certainly still very important - Celebrimbor is his and it is unacceptable that someone (else) hurt him. And elf soulbond! (I do love elf soulbonds.) I think it would cause a lot of pain to Sauron. Emotionally of course, he would be incredibly distraught and bereft, but metaphysically too.

To go to Melian's reaction, there's the interesting question of how she returned to Valinor. She is shapelocked, due to "begetting", but I find it logistically unlikely for her to have left Beleriand physically; I imagine she shed her form, which implies to me some sort of metaphysical change? She is no longer capable of being tied to Thingol physically (maybe a little desperate necro, but Thingol's no longer in that body). Likewise, in a situation where S loses his elf husband, I imagine it would create some sort of 'wound', if you will (and that Melian experienced that). Different in scale and effect than the loss of the One in canon, certainly not permanently incapacitating, but not too different in quality. A part of Sauron was wretched away, leaving a gaping, bleeding wound.

Many people would end up dying, horribly. But Sauron certainly isn't going to Valinor, as Melian did. I imagine the timeline and plot here would draw closer to canon. If the One wasn't already made (and I'm uncertain if a married Sauron could make the One as it is: his soul isn't just his own anymore, there's another soul that's intertwined with it*), I don't know if Sauron would make it, because I'm not sure there's the same incentive as there is in canon, but maybe something like it. But certainly going full on dark lord, Sauron the Great, King of the Earth, as he called himself in canon.**

*as a general rule I prefer 'soul' in writing, but yes, technically eala and fea and the two are different. Sauron has no "true" physical form and is whole without a fana, but Celebrimbor or any other elf are only whole when his fea and hroa/soul and body are together. But for the terms of a marriage bond, they function more or less interchangeably.

**what name he ended up using here is also open to debate. "Sauron the Great" is a title he did use canonically, but does anyone know he is Sauron/Gorthaur in this AU? Maybe not, aside from some Orcs! He's probably going by Annatar in this AU and he might end up keeping it. Well, as one of his names: I imagine he had many in different local languages.

(Also, please don't worry, your asks made me very happy to receive!)

[undercat-overdog]

Do you think angbang is better as they stayed together until the very end while in silvergifting, sauron painfully murdered celebrimbor?

Personal murder is very sexy, anon.

I don't actually think angbang stayed together till the very end. I mean, I also don't think angbang was a thing that happened, but I don't think that Sauron returned to Morgoth after the whole Luthien incident, for reasons I talked about in a previous ask.

But. I entirely reject the underlying assumptions of the question.

Neither ship is "better" than the other. No ship is better or worse than any other ship. I like some ships and dislike others, but that's personal taste, not objective ranking. Loyalty kink is a major turn-off for me but other people are super into it; likewise I enjoy some vivisection but for others it's a very strong do not want. And that's fine. De gustibus non est disputandum, and all. Taste isn't a matter of right or wrong, or moral or immoral, or better or worse.

[undercat-overdog]

My toxic trait is that I'm not terribly impressed by "doomed by the narrative." Everyone's doomed by the narrative it came free with your fucking narrative

[undercat-overdog]

Do you think out of all the people in silmarillon, sauron got to live his best life as he actually almost succeeded in doing whatever he wanted and was even enjoying watching his enemies fall to ruin?

Thank you for the ask, anon, I always love them 💙

And lol! There weren't many people in the Silm who got to lead their best life, were there...

But I don't, actually. One thing that comes up in a lot of places is all the negative emotions that he experiences. You could argue that something like black anger can be grimly satisfying - and it can be - but fear is also one of the main emotions. It doesn't pop up all the time, but it's a common one. In LotR, he's said to be afraid of his enemies' plans.

I talk about fear with him less than I might in meta because. Hmm. Because I think it doesn't come from deep personal insecurities? He's not afraid all of the time and when he is it's often very rational. Like he's right to be very scared when Luthien beats him. He's right to be afraid of the Numenoreans, because their army genuinely can beat his (canonically why he surrenders to Pharazon; it wasn't his preferred choice but the better ones - diplomacy that let him stay ruling in Middle-earth and/or militarily defeating the Numenoreans - weren't possible). And yeah, he's right to be afraid of Gandalf too (he doesn't understand Gandalf nor what Gandalf will do, which makes him more dangerous).

Fear and rage and bitterness and anger that others are living well are there, and those emotions generally aren't fun to experience. Then there's his longing for the Ring.

Which isn't to say he's not confident (if anything, his self-esteem is far too high). He came very, very close to winning the War of the Rings.

And, well, he did lose. Multiple times. Loser 🥰

But I do think he had fun too! He definitely enjoys himself from time to time and watching his enemies fall to ruin was likely enjoyable. I headcanon his emotional state as quite mercurial, and amusement is definitely part of that.

Haha maybe "living his best life (thwarted)" is how to describe S.

[undercat-overdog]

There is more to Tolkien's work than his Catholicism.

I think there's a general tendency in many areas of fandom - fandom broadly, I'm also think academic work and reddit; this post isn't aimed at tumblr fandom specifically. in fact probably a bit more aimed at reddit but there was no precipitating incident that's leading me to write this. Anyways, a general tendency to over-weight the influence of Christianity in his work? Especially when it comes to finding allegories (Andreth talking about her people's beliefs in the Athrabeth is the only thing I think that is one, and Tolkien in his notes talked about how it was too Christian and wanted to change it), but more generally too. And sometimes I think Catholicism is brought into the text in ways that really aren't there. Idk.

Also... I think there is a way that him himself as a creator is. Hmm. I don't want to say under-discussed because it's not. But his work is more than the sum of his influences?

[undercat-overdog]

@tobermoriansass tagged me for a tidbit tuesday, sharing a bit of writing: thank you! 💙

I've been trying to get back into writing, working on Shall these Bones Live, a porny AU outtake for the same that's not not vore-adjacent, and the occasional passage in the unhappy ending, so:

“I love you,” Celebrimbor cried. “I love you, I love you—”

Sauron looked at him, eyes brighter than the sun. But even as he opened his mouth, even as Celebrimbor reached out desperately, he was swallowed by the darkness.

It engulfed him, but there was a flash of gold light, so bright Celebrimbor’s eyes burned, and the hole in reality imploded; it fell in on itself, or was pulled into itself, till it was the size of a grain of sand, then with a loud painful sound and a wave of pressure that threw Celebrimbor back, it was nothing.

Annatar was gone.

Tagging @lulukeskywalker, @yavieriel, and @herenortherenearnorfar if you want - but please no pressure! 💙

[undercat-overdog]

I don't know what I'm doing anymore lol. Getting back into paleo stuff. Tiktaalik feelings. I plan on making this into a small edition of 2 color screen prints on paper, so follow along to get notified for that! Photoshop // ~ 8 hours

Instagram // X // Bluesky