undercat-overdog

[undercat-overdog]

Also, I know I'm replying super late so I hope you see this, but I'm really curious as to what else pops out at you about fandom takes, having just read the Silm, seeing things with fresh eyes and all.

I know you aren’t crazy about Feanor and his sons. But do you know why the color red is so often associated with them in fanfic and fanart? I just read the Silmarillion, and I don’t remember red being mentioned in particular with them. Is it more of a fandom thing, do you know?

It's a fandom thing, not a canon one. See this excellent post that goes over what we know.

I think it's associated with Feanor because his brothers do have house colors, so people think he should have them (natural), and we see red as the opposite of blue, so if Fingolfin is associated with blue, his rival should have red. Feanor also is associated with fire, which we associate with red even though most fire we see is actually yellow and orange. Also the association with blood lol. Tolkien himself uses it when describing the taking of the Oath: red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches.

So red is a natural enough choice.

That said! The proper take is that Feanor's house color is yellow, which is the dominant color in his sigil, a primary color that can stand in opposition to Fingolfin's blue, and is one of the colors of fire.

All that said, I'm not a huge fan of portraying the characters as always wearing their house color. How boring would that be, stuck with one color for eternity! One that's not even black! And while I don't like the guy, as a fellow redhead it feels cruel to curse Maedhros with an eternity of crimson shirts. Let him have some emerald green.

Thanks for the ask anon - I hope you enjoyed the Silm read too!

[undercat-overdog]

Will we see a conclusion to the monastery fic this year? I’m dying (pun not intended) to see what happens to Celebrimbor

I don't know haha. I'd like to get back into writing, so I hope so.

As for what happens next, some public use during prayers and then Fucwe finally fucks him.

[undercat-overdog]

With your Celebrimbor, how do you think the coup that resulted with Galadriel leaving Eregion came about? Or was it something other than a coup?

I've never sussed this out in my mind properly!

Some thoughts:

I do think it was a coup of sorts (I say of sorts because I don't think it involved the military or any violence or threat of violence but was purely political).

More people were involved than just Annatar and Celebrimbor. In the coup versions, it's always (or usually, I didn't check all references) the Mirdain as a whole. From UT: So great became [Sauron's] hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion.

As for how Sauron persuaded them? Well, there are true things he can point to: Galadriel's lust for power, for one. Maybe she was opposed to some of the Mirdain's research. (As an aside, if I were going for the latter bit, and I probably wouldn't, I wouldn't make it about the Rings. The Great Rings were forged in the 1500s according to the Appendix timeline and Galadriel left Eregion before then. But more than that, she's pretty pro-Three.) There's her and Annatar's antagonism too, and the Mirdain are pretty pro-Annatar at this point.

Now Celebrimbor's role in the coup... I go with something where he's not one of the ring(lol)leaders, maybe even half-heartedly opposes it when the Mirdain start talking about removing Galadriel and Celeborn (he's canonically friends with them) but ends up as the main public figure of it, by dint of his royal ancestry.

One thing to ponder... was the coup bad? We're not told what the broader populace of Eregion thinks, but there's no mention of any exodus or even people other than Celebrian and Amroth (in this telling, her child) leaving with Galadriel. If the majority of Eregion would rather she no longer rule them, well, Tolkien might be a monarchist but I'm not.

I think if I wrote it, I'd go with something like that. The majority of the population being more pro-Annatar than pro-Galadriel, in part because of Annatar doing some quiet fake news and propaganda but also playing on some real, preexisting things. Then Annatar, seeing that fertile ground (that he'd fertilized too), starts asking some of his jewelsmith colleagues some questions, like why does Galadriel have a right to rule, etc, which leads to them overthrowing her politically. Note that she and Celeborn weren't exiled or kicked out of the city; she left (for a country she then ruled) but Celeborn stayed.

(One potentially fascinating element: Eregion had a substantial Doriathrin component and I think I'd make the majority of them in particular be pro-Annatar. After all, they'd see the goodness and beauty and protection a Maia could bring to a country...)

On a personal level, I think Celebrimbor later repents of this and probably kneels in front of Galadriel and Celeborn to desperately beg their forgiveness. Which they give, maybe not immediately, and reconcile. (Leads to the question of when he does this. He seems to give Nenya to Galadriel before Sauron makes the One, after all.)

[undercat-overdog]

I know you aren’t crazy about Feanor and his sons. But do you know why the color red is so often associated with them in fanfic and fanart? I just read the Silmarillion, and I don’t remember red being mentioned in particular with them. Is it more of a fandom thing, do you know?

It's a fandom thing, not a canon one. See this excellent post that goes over what we know.

I think it's associated with Feanor because his brothers do have house colors, so people think he should have them (natural), and we see red as the opposite of blue, so if Fingolfin is associated with blue, his rival should have red. Feanor also is associated with fire, which we associate with red even though most fire we see is actually yellow and orange. Also the association with blood lol. Tolkien himself uses it when describing the taking of the Oath: red as blood shone their drawn swords in the glare of the torches.

So red is a natural enough choice.

That said! The proper take is that Feanor's house color is yellow, which is the dominant color in his sigil, a primary color that can stand in opposition to Fingolfin's blue, and is one of the colors of fire.

All that said, I'm not a huge fan of portraying the characters as always wearing their house color. How boring would that be, stuck with one color for eternity! One that's not even black! And while I don't like the guy, as a fellow redhead it feels cruel to curse Maedhros with an eternity of crimson shirts. Let him have some emerald green.

Thanks for the ask anon - I hope you enjoyed the Silm read too!

[undercat-overdog]

!!!!!

More from Shall these Bones Live by @undercat-overdog

+ one of my fav scenes with Sauron Being Horrible (again)

[undercat-overdog]

From @undercat-overdog ‘s silvergifting fic Shall these Bones Live

[undercat-overdog]

TOLKIEN 👏 HIMSELF 👏 REFERRED 👏 TO 👏 FEMALE ELVES 👏 AS 👏 WOMEN

Can 2025 maybe be the year we as a fandom finally stop using the term 'she-elf', which was invented for the Jackson movies and comes across as intentionally derogatory?

Tolkien himself referred to female elves as 'women' or 'elven-women' or similar.

[undercat-overdog]

What are some headcanons that you have for the Vanyar? I wish Tolkien wrote more about them; it’s hard for me to get a good feel of their culture compared to the Noldor, Teleri, and Sindar. You seem to know a lot about canon so I thought I’d ask about any thoughts you may have. (Yes I know headcanons are not canon, but there’s so comparatively little written about them)

Thanks for the question, anon!

Oh man, all my thoughts about the Vanyar are pure headcanon. And most of those thoughts are actually @kazaera's thoughts; I really love their take on the Vanyar and they are totally the person to ask.

One broad thought, courtesy of the aforementioned Kaz, is that while the Tatyar and Nelyar split up into different groups from the very beginning but the two groups that made it to Aman seemed to stay as one (well, two, one of each), the Vanyar stayed together from the decision to leave for Aman and throughout the great journey... and then (this is where it moves from canon to headcanon) split to live in many different places in Aman and develop different cultures (and different languages; I have a conlang of one in my head, broadly sketched out). So there are Vanyar that live in plains and ones that live in jungles and a few that live in Valmar, with divergent lifestyles and languages. I think they'd still consider themselves one people, even if the word for their people - Minyar in Quen(d)ya - is pronounced differently by different people.

One minor headcanon, which is entirely my own, is that the Vanyar have eyes without any grey in them, instead brilliant browns and blues and greens, etc, (whereas the Tatyar and Nelyar always have grey eyes, sometimes blue-grey or violet-grey or green-grey, but always some grey). This is based in how the Vanyar are the group with divergent looks while the Tatyar and Nelyar are said to resemble each other physically (Quendi and Eldar, in which what distinguishes the Noldor from the Sindar is the Treeboost the Aman-born Exiles got and the LIght in their eyes, but how otherwise you couldn't tell by their looks). But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a mention somewhere of a Vanya having grey eyes, because Jirt. They don't in my head though.

[undercat-overdog]

Are you going to continue your Rings of Power reviews?

Yeah, hopefully. I do mean to write one for the last four episodes, but tbh, a lot has slipped my mind.

But in short: I don't think they were good. Aipilosse said the last two in particular felt like a movie with half the scenes missing, which sums up how I feel. I do think this season was better than last season, though.

[undercat-overdog]

Third and fourth episodes worse than the first two. Thoughts in no particular order.

General note: I have seen people say that RoP needed more time to develop and that studio pressures to make it faster paced hurt the show. No, what RoP needed was less time and ideally fewer storylines. Desperately need an editor. This isn't a complaint about slow pacing. Slow pacing is fine. Inconsistent pacing, pacing that's alternatively slow and rushed, isn't fine.

Other general note: the show has a major problem with timelines, both in its internal narration and how it fits with Tolkien canon. There are a bunch of third age elements popping up (Kings of Men burying their dead in the Barrowdowns? What Kings of Men!), but there are internal problems too, especially the disconnect between Isildur and Numenor (was Isildur in suspended animation for the time it took for Elendil to go from Mordor to the coast and then for not-Brego to travel all that way back?) There's no sense of time or distance.

Things I liked:

The spider fight at the beginning was fun! Nonsensical but very fun. Loved the gleaming spider eggs.

I like the evil Istar and his evil minions, even if the main minion dude stole his mask from General Grievous. I'm also really into the desert setting! It's new and unique.

Some of the set design is very nice. Numenor's is so pretty and I liked Tom's house, especially the star map on the ceiling.

I hope they're going for a romance with Isildur and what's-her-name. It's shallow but cute. If we must have a dead mother, I like how it was drowning and not childbirth or illness, especially in Numenor (though why the angst, Isildur, isn't the sea is always right?) I was meh on a lot of that storyline, but Isildur's cute and so is his horsemance.

Things I didn't like or were neutral on:

A minor sin, but I cannot get over how bad makeup is and has consistently been from the beginning. This time it's Saubranatar and the blond elf OC: their foundation is not the same shade as their skin and goes horribly with the wigs (blond elf OC desperately needs some purple conditioner, very brassy). At least in Bombadil they finally found a character for whom blush overload is appropriate.

Reallllly not a fan of the prosthetics either, especially with the new hobbits.

Still hate the hobbit storyline and now I have more to hate with it, in Bombadil.

I kinda wonder if they've gone to the longer hair because of all the backlash to the short hair lol.

The hobbits are looking for the promised land of Suzat? First, wtf. Second, Westron the language will not exist for a couple thousand years!

Why is we're-not-saying-he's-Gandalf the only character who has been naked so far? More than once!

Is a shot of orc baby the reason people wrote articles about how rop added morally complexity and greyness? Lol.

The Numenorean storyline is incoherent and terminally stupid. I realize that last season didn't leave them a great foundation: still terminally stupid. Why didn't the eagle talk? I do think Pharazon in particular has potential, but he's way underdeveloped.

What the hell is Theo's vest thing? They've moved into a (ruined) settlement and have running water, they no longer need to muck farm! Also I would like if the evil helmet haired kid never comes back. Cannot express how little I care about him or his and Arondir's stepdad angst. He and Isildur sure are monster magnets though.

Speaking of monsters, it felt like an rpg where the DM kept rolling for random monster encounters. In two episodes, we got spiders, Sarlacc creature, Eagles, Ent and Entwife, angry person-eating tree, barrowwights, I'm sure I'm missing something. Just randomly take shit and throw it in, doesn't matter if it fits, fans like references! It's pandering filler that doesn't advance the storyline.

Can we stop it with the PJ movie callbacks? I'm resigned to never getting away from his aesthetics, but all the recreations of different shots. I guess they took the Barrowwight look from Pirates of the Caribbean and not PJ?

We know she's an Entwife and not an Ent because she has flowers.

Lmao that is so much metal to make Rings and the mithril lump is not big. Is it homeopathic mithril? And for a show named after Rings, they sure don't spend a lot of time on them.

I have very little good to say about Celebrimbor and that storyline but it's a character and place I'm deeply invested in so I'll leave that be. On a couple neutral notes, Charles Edwards' acting is better than last season (where I was very not impressed) and I'm curious what they'll do with Elrond's antipathy towards the Three, given that he'll later end up bearing one.

The end credits song at the end of episode 4 was hilariously incongruent.

[undercat-overdog]

Did your Celebrimbor suspect Annatar of maybe not being honest with his history or motivations before the Sauron reveal? Ie - not really an emissary or a Maia of Aule anymore?

So yes and no. He definitely comes to suspect that Annatar wasn't honest about his past, or at least that Annatar hadn't told him the whole story, and also that Annatar was working of his own motives and will, not those of Aule's.

That said, Celebrimbor wouldn't have a problem with Annatar saying less than positive things about the Valar or about Valinor, nor about him no longer following Aule. My Celebrimbor has a quite negative opinion about the Valar in general (comes by it from both his parents, including his Sindarin mother; especially her actually) and sees no reason whatsoever to consider them authorities or a group to obey. So Annatar being the equivalent of Radagast or Saruman - sent to Middle-earth by the Valar, decided to go his own way and pursue his own motives - is perfectly fine with Celebrimbor, would probably make him trust Annatar's motives even more - after all, Celebrimbor isn't impressed with the Valar's attitudes towards Middle-earth. Annatar may have intimated as much even.

It never crossed his mind that Annatar might have once served Morgoth.

[undercat-overdog]

You working on any new/old writing projects currently?

I haven't much been, no, a combination of being busy with other stuff and disenchanted with this fandom. I hope to get back into it though. I would like to finish up Bones and Fuck Monastery and I have a quarter-written porny AU of Bones to work on.

[undercat-overdog]

Ok, thoughts on the first two episodes, and just the first two - it was late the night I saw them and my cowatcher and I were not up for the third. And now fourth ig, haven't watched that either.

I didn't think it sucked and it was noticeably improved from last season. The dialogue is now full of bland platitudes instead of shit like rocks sinking and that is a huge improvement! Overall, it wasn't bad but I wouldn't watch it were it not tied to An Interest of mine (in fairness, I'm not hugely into television as a medium, so getting me to watch something is a high bar to begin with).

I thought it was interesting how much of a break they tried to make between this season and the last. Guess Amazon Studios wasn't happy with the response and ratings.

Things I liked:

The Sauron intro. I do have some mild complaints (I was confused about how much time passed and think it could have been indicated by directing. I also would have thought it cool had he gone off to become the ruler and ruling line of the Southern Kingdom or whatever, which fits his general style) but I quite liked it. Halbrand really grew on me. Like delightful ooze, which leads to what I genuinely adore:

Slimeron!!! Oily worm Sauron is calculated exactly to my interests and specific specifications, zero complaints, excellent, perfect.

Sauron made friends with a doggo! I appreciate him being tortured too, always nice.

Nice Cirdan. Still not the ideal, which is Steve Toussaint as Corlys in HotD and if I ever write Cirdan he's going to have a seahorse insignia or something, but nice. I liked him a lot. I appreciate that they remembered he bore Narya.

I am not immune to pretty green clothing

I like giving the dwarves singing as a thing. Overall, I think the Dwarf storyline is my favorite? We'll see what I think when Numenor rolls around, hopefully less CW this season.

Soundtrack is good! I thought the sound mixing was better than last season too, music appropriately placed in the mix.

Overall I didn't mind watching it.

Things I didn't:

the hobbit plotline remains The Worst. I guess now they're cribbing from the Sand People in Star Wars instead of PJ? (Credit to Aipilosse for that comparison.) I liked the evil istar but everything else makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

Why did Saubrand remained clothed during torture? This show manages to be even less horny than the books themselves, which says a lot.

The "Light of the Eldar" being a fucking glowing tree is so stupid. I said last season that the whole fading plot reminded me of a video game quest (derogatory) and I stand by that (fetch an item for an npc and the elves will join your cause! Guess "knife-ears" wasn't the only thing they took from dragonage). I did like that they had Gil-galad sing though, appropriately elfy and the actor has a good voice.

yeah i still fucking hate this portrayal of Celebrimbor.

they are so Wrong about the Three. In every single way. It's not what makes me actively not want to watch (Hobbits and Gandalf in a desert and wtf how is that biome a short walk from the woodlands they were in before?), but I hate it. Might go into detail in a later post.

the character they are calling Galadriel is not Galadriel. She's fine as a character, but not that character. I forget whether it was Visitor or Aipi who first said that she should have been Celebrian, which would have been so much better: I'd have been a huge fan of that.

this is a me thing, but I really hate Adar. That type of character might be catnip to some, but I'm allergic. Otoh, he now has nice hair, approve.

Too much blush.

Things I can't complain about yet but am not looking forward to:

Tom Bombadil. Why are his clothes so drab and muted? And teaching we're nott-saying-he's-Gandalf-but-he-is magic? That's not how Tom works! Do I know how Tom works? No I don't, but I do know it's not like that.

Things they better have more of:

Slimeron

Dogs

Do you plan to watch the second season of Rings of Power?

Probably! It's not must see TV for me, but I'll likely watch at least the first episode. Curiosity, mostly.

[undercat-overdog]

[undercat-overdog]

Do you like celebrimbor x narvi ship? Do u ship them ?

No particular feelings either way and no, respectively. Dwarves don't do it for me, sorry anon.

[undercat-overdog]

Do you plan to watch the second season of Rings of Power?

Probably! It's not must see TV for me, but I'll likely watch at least the first episode. Curiosity, mostly.

[undercat-overdog]

Your voice, between nerves and thorns

- Art by Nunzio Paci