#still a kinslaying

[eri-pl]

I hate how I can't Tumblr properly. Anyway:

Well, I do take offense TBH beccause Melian didn't try or plan to get Thingol to fall in love with her, they just fell both, because ... well, because that's how romance in Tolkien works, I guess.

Both from what I remember from the text, and logic (the Ainur are forbidden to force the minds of the Children, so if they do they fall and Melian doesn't start looking creepy and emanating darkness) Melian and Thingol was (just like B&L) "fate struck them both in the heads" and not "one of them struck the other one in the head", and while I'm not a fan of how Tolkien describes falling in love, please do not claim that it was something Melian willingly did with her magic to Thingol.

Edit: I reread the text in the Silm and argh, why is Tolkien so poetic. Thingol hears Melian singing and he is "enchanted" but I really don't believe Tolkien meant it as Melian magicking him on purpose. Because later he runs to her and takes her hand and now she is enchanted and fallen in love. so she was not in love before. Thingol fell in love first. So why on earth would Melian magic him into it? She may have summonned him with her song out of curiosity, it may have had the unexpected effect of him falling in love, but it's not something she knew, or expected, or planned.

OK, tbh in the archaic view... they did elope, and Melian was the more powerful party, so you may call it that word if you really want to.

You can say Melian stole Thingol from his people, to whom he had responsibilities. The fact that Thingol was enthusiastic about said theft and initiated it, does not change it. ;)

But it really breaks the logic of the Silm if we assume it was anyhow non consensual.

And she didn't imprison Thingol in the forest. they just both lost track of time.

You know I don't hate Eöl, or Maeglin, or Celegorm. I am trying to be unbiased. Still, I think the text reads as:

Melian is innocent

Eöl is coercing, but not outright rape-y, and Aredhel falls in love with him, though she is manipulated into it (by isolation).

Maeglin is unclear, may have been ok-just-unnerving until his capture by Morgoth, and after being talked to by Morgoth we can blame it in large part on Morgoth's corruption and insanity. Or may be interpreted as worse.

Celegorm in the Silm, as I was shown earlier, may be just assuming that Lúthien will fall for him if given enough time. And he still does have a special place in by heart because he was your blorbo at one point.

And it's not that I like Melian so much. You know, whom else I like? Morgoth. And he did very clearly try to rape someone at least twice. And I have no problem admitting that. OK, I don't remember if Arien is mentioned in the Silm or other text, but even in the Silm only, with Luthien, it's clear what his approach is. And I am trying to stick to the Silm here. Anyway he is a rapist. By intent.

I'm not saying you must like Melian or Lúthien or that everything they did was perfect, but I don't think a forced or manipulated marriage is compatibile with the text.

feel like the silm fandom doesn't talk enough about the fact that Turgon enacted the first state sanctioned execution (whether it was deserved is irrelevant, it's just wild that he went for that as a choice to me) among the elves or the fact that the response of the people of Nargothrond to Curufin's speech about not following Beren and Finrod to get the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown was to "with stealth and ambush, with wizardry and venomed dart, pursue all strangers, forgetting the bonds of kinship" thus falling "from the valour and freedom of the elves of old, and their land was darkened".

some interesting choices happening in Nargothrond and Gondolin for sure.

[wilwarin-wilwa]

a relationship that i don’t contemplate enough is the one between Maedhros and Manwe

does Maedhros feel indebted to Manwe for saving him? or does he hate him for keeping him alive when he had begged to die? when he looks at Eonwe, does he remember that debt? does he relive that moment—Fingon’s desperate prayer and the immediate, unexpected swoop of the eagle?

and why does Manwe interfere to save Maedhros in the first place? is it for Fingon’s sake or out of pity for Maedhros? is it because he sees something in him—some kind of virtue or potential? does Manwe ever regret giving Maedhros a second chance?

[sesamenom]

@general-illyrin @tar-thelien @who-needs-words I think you all mentioned being interested in the reverse gondolin au - is anyone interested in helping with wrangling the timelines, especially the second age stuff? Here's the current outline:

(Edit: anyone feel free to help out if you're interested!)

YT 14365 - Birth of Lomion

YT 14373/FA 1 - Death of Argon

FA

2 - Aredhel adopts Lomion

300 - Birth of Idril

316 - Turgon & Idril kidnapped by Eol

400 - Turgon & Idril rescued. Death of Eol

465 - Finrod more-peacefully passes throne to orodreth while on Quest. Everyone except beren still dies

472 - Nirnaeth. Turgon named High King of the Noldor.

476 - Turgon abdicates official title. Aredhel named High King of the Noldor.

496 - Tuor comes to Gondolin

502 - Wedding of Idril and Tuor

503 - Births of Earendil and Elwing. Idril begins to have foresight dreams about the Fall.

506 - Second Kinslaying. C^3 dead, celebrimbor stays in gondolin. Aredhel denounces the oath/kinslaying and disowns C^3

Elwing survives & is found by Oropher & Thranduil // Galadriel & Celeborn. oropher, thranduil, oropher's wife, and thranduil's then-gf // galadriel & celeborn take Elwing to Gondolin as refugees. The Silmaril is left hidden in the woods of melian's domain.

507 - Elwing comes to Gondolin.

509 - Idril captured by Morgoth. Idril reveals the location of Gondolin in exchange for an Oath to not harm her family (Turgon, Tuor, and Earendil). Idril rescued.

510 - Gondolin prepares for war with Morgoth.

513-522 - Siege of Gondolin. Deaths of Duilin and Rog. Gothmog slain by Aredhel the Huntress. First use of the Three Rings by Lomion and Celebrimbor in defense of Gondolin. House of the Hammer of Wrath destroyed.

523 - Maedhros believes a Silmaril is with Elwing at Gondolin.

525 - Earendil weds Elwing. Lomion weds ???. Adoption of Gil-Galad

532 - Births of Elrond and Elros.

538 - Third Kinslaying at Gondolin. Death of Amras. Elrond and Elros kidnapped by Maglor. Deaths of Elwing and Turgon. Second use of the Three Rings by Lomion and Celebrimbor. Deaths of Maedhros and Aredhel. Lomion named King of Gondolin and High King of the Noldor. Deaths of Salgant, Penlod, and Tuor. Earendil named Lord of the House of the Wing.

540-549 - War declared between Gondolin and the Feanorians of Himring over the Third Kinslaying and kidnapping of Princes Elrond and Elros.

549 - Elrond and Elros recovered. Feanorians and Gondolin severely weakened. Celebrimbor // Gil-Galad declared heir to the High Kingship.

552-554 - Second Siege & Fall of Gondolin. Third use of the Three Rings by Lomion and Celebrimbor. Deaths of Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Egalmoth, and Turgon. Idril and Celebrimbor lead survivors through the Secret Way.

555 - Gondolithlim refugees arrive at Sirion.

556 - Idril departs for Valinor.

558 - Earendil searches for Valinor.

560 - Havens of Sirion destroyed by Morgoth. Gondolithlim/Doriathrim survivors scattered. Elrond and Elros rescued (as adults) by Maglor.

572 - Morgoth controls Beleriand. Earendil and reembodied Elwing come to Valinor and rally the Host.

575-617 - War of Wrath

618 - Maglor claims the Silmaril from Eonwe's camp and casts himself into the Sea. Death of Maglor.

620 - End of the First Age.

SA

1 - Founding of the Grey Havens and Lindon under High King Lomion

2 - Elros becomes the first King of Numenor

c. 500 - Sauron returns to Middle-Earth in the East.

650 - Eregion is founded

1000 - Galadriel is given Vilya; Lomion wields Nenya

1170 - Annatar comes to Lindon and Lomion turns him away. Lomion warns Celebrimbor of Eregion of his suspicions.

1200 - Annatar comes to Eregion. Celebrimbor takes him in to monitor.

1250 - Celebrimbor creates the Seven; Lomion creates the Nine.

1410 - Annatar is kicked out of Eregion.

1600 - The One Ring is forged. Sauron remains in hiding.

1610 - Sauron begins to gather and prepare armies in the East.

1673 - War of the Elves and Sauron begins.

1675 - Sauron invades Eriador.

1677 - Fall of Ost-in-Edhil. Celebrimbor and Lomion remain at the House of the Mirdain. Death of Celebrimbor in battle // Fourth use of the Three in battle. Sauron does not learn of the Seven. Founding of Imladris.

1678 - Sauron defeated by the Numenoreans and the Elves of Lindon.

1679 - Sauron flees to Mordor. First White Council held.

3147 - Civil war in Numenor.

3225 - Ar-Pharazon seizes the Sceptre.

3228 - Elrond claims the Sceptre. Ar-Pharazon disowned. Tar-Miriel named Ruling Queen.

3232 - Sauron taken to Numenor as a prisoner.

3274 - Elrond kicks Sauron out of Numenor and outlaws the morgoth cult.

3310 - Morgoth cult publicly reappears.

3319 - Downfall of Numenor. Tar-Miriel leads a greater force of the Faithful away.

(green // blue means two main options, red means i need to think about it more)

The main details I'm figuring out right now are

does Celebrimbor still die at Eregion - I don't think he's getting captured/tortured, but he could still die in the battle. On the other hand, he could probably survive by using Narya & Lomion using Nenya, but that would definitely have repercussions further down the line

how does Idril's deal work - I'm currently thinking of Idril exchanging the location of Gondolin for her family's guaranteed safety, because it seems in character for Reverse Idril? But on the other hand, even if I limit it to immediate family at the time of the oath (tuor, turgon, earendil) then idk where turgon dies? Maybe Maglor can kill him but that seems kind of random

where and how does Turgon die

how does Prince Elrond's character even work

how does Numenor still fall when factoring in Prince Elrond - I'm thinking that the morgoth death cult gained enough traction during the time sauron was there that even after Elrond kicks him out, the cult still sticks around and reemerges later? The Fall still happens, but they never go to attack valinor and there's a good deal more Faithful (maybe 40-60%?)

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

News of Dior’s Silmaril passed further than the sons of Feanor. Morgoth too heard, Morgoth too planned an attack. He prepared forces to storm Doriath. The kinslayers got there first. When orcs arrived at Menegroth, it was already deserted. Had it been otherwise there would have been no survivors.

[feanorianethicsdepartment]

you just know there’s some elven supremacist assholes out there who think the problem with the third kinslaying is that the fëanorians killed Elves, Specifically, and if they’d massacred a human refugee camp for the silmaril it wouldn’t even be worth remarking on

[queerofthedagger]

the fact that there are ten entire years between the breaking of the siege and beren turning up in nargothrond. ten whole years with celegorm and curufin in nargothrond. like, i don't even mean this (only) in a curufinrod way (although i do also mean that. can we talk about that. ten years !!) it really is just insane to me that they just hung out there for an entire decade before it all went to shit. i'm not a 'the oath straight-up forces you to do things' truther, and ten years are perhaps not the same to an elf as they are to us but still. ten years. that's a long time to coexist, to have your people mingle, to live in the court of a king who is one of those annoying arafinweans, to have two feanorians under your roof. just, the minutae of the every-day-life of that is beyond fascinating to me on so many levels, and we know so little about it - celegorm and curufin helping with/running patrols, acting in some capacity as advisors, gaining power among both people - while there must have been so much. man

[imfromthemiddlekingdom]

Okay this might be controversial but I do not believe anyone but Feanor and his sons have ANY claim to the Silmarils. This is coming from a person who’s family jewels have been stolen by colonizers and then sold on the market and when we asked for them back showing proof how it belonged to us, the buyer said no because, “I now own it since I paid for it from the money my daddy gave me”.

My family were landlords in feudal China. My great grandfather was a member of the Qing court and my family has done terrible things in history to those we viewed as “beneath us”. Yet the jewel that was an heirloom that got stolen when the eight nation alliance sacked Beijing still belonged to us. Not the person who stole it and then went on to sell it, and definitely not the person who bought it.

I remember when the sale of the necklace made the news and my grandmother broke down crying because she knew it. The same exact necklace sat upon the neck of the portrait of her grandfather in her house. My mother wrote to the new ‘owner’ asking if they’ll return it or if they’ll allow her to buy it off him since it belonged to us, and that person, who was Chinese as well, who knew also the pain of colonization, said no. All because in his eyes he paid for it through legitimate means therefore he owned it.

That piece of jewelry isn’t all that expensive bar the historical value of it since it was given to my ancestors by Qianlong but it was a religious piece as well as a sentimental one. It hold value do to its history not because of any value it holds as it was made from otherwise common materials. But still my family held to traditions, especially religious ones.

But if that piece of jewelry contained a piece of my ancestors soul within them I would definitely be more feral in my hatred towards those who kept it from us. There’s so few mementos left from my ancestors as we sold most of it to support the revolution in the early 20th century and the rest were lost during the middle of the century and those that we kept we coveted. But if any of the rest of the jade and gold I still hold were stolen from me and we’re known to contain a piece of my ancestors soul I would stop at nothing to get it back.

No one but Feanor and his direct descendants have ANY claim to the Silmarils. Just as no one but those who hold claim to stolen Jewish artworks hold any claim to them and none hold any claim to the stolen Buddhist statutes taken from my country but the temple the colonizers took it from. The kinslaying’s were objectively horrible. They were objectively wrong and the sons of Feanor should be punished because of their actions yet Varda had no right to judge who was more worthy of a gem she had no hand in creating. She had no right to declare that the Sins of Feanor were unholy and unworthy due to their deeds that came about due to her and her husbands unwillingness to do anything about her once suitor and his brother.

Thingol had no right in claiming the Silmarils as his own, Luthien stealing a stolen artifact does not make it hers by right. Just because the British stole the 12 zodiac heads does it make them there’s? Just because the person who now owns the dragon head bought it in an auction now ‘owns’ it because they paid out of pocket for it does it now make it there’s? Dior had no right to the jewel, nor did Elwing or E��rendil. The only argument you might make to make Elwings claim stronger is for the Silmaril to be a reparation for Doriath. But even then you have to weigh the cost that Doriath cost staying out of the war and the lives lost due to them raising the griddle and not aiding any of the Sindar that lived out of it.

Even if you believe that the Sons of Feanor had no right to the Silmarils than it should’ve gone to Feanors wife. The Valar had no right to declare any creation of the Children theirs. Havana’s two trees may have provided the light that was contained within the three jewels but would you consider the light that is caught in film the property of the sun? Can you claim that 静夜思-李白 (Quiet Night Thoughts - Li Bai) belongs to the moon goddess since she inspired his poem and her beauty is now held within his poem? Or that the Song of Songs belong to Solomon because it is also known as the Song of Solomon?

The Valar lost all ‘right’ they had to the gems Varda blessed when they decided that the Noldors rebellion hurt their pride and they would not do anything to aid them. And Thingol Dior and Luthein never had any right to them in the first place, just because you stole something that was stolen doesn’t make it yours(!!!!). The only one in that whole line that can claim any right to the gems are Elwing and even that is debatable due to how many people died due to Doriaths inactions.

It’s mainly white people I see defending that the gems no longer belong to Feanors kin and I don’t have to wonder about why that is. When most white people wouldn’t even admit to the fact that their museums would be empty without stolen Chinese artifacts or stolen artifacts. Most of the white people I see simping for Thingol and defending his actions and Diors actions and Beren’s actions have never had their homes ravaged by outside forces and have had their belongings stolen from them. They will never understand the hatred you’d feel when seeing your ancestors work displayed in glass when your family grieves because those should’ve been burned with them instead of being on display. The Silmarils do not belong to anyone but Feanors Kin and all of the Valar should literally die because they are egotistical assholes who only want to be worshipped and when they mess up they blame everyone but themselves.

[sakasakiii]

Hi!

I just wanted to say that I love your art very much. It is so pretty. It motivates me to keep on drawing.

Also- are you okay? How are you?

HELLO NONNIE!!! sorry for taking SO long to reply to this, but thank you sm for ur concern and for taking the time to send such a kind message 🥺 I'm doing fine! like i explained in my comeback post a few days ago, i've just been really busy hahahah.... which has been somewhat of a pattern in 2022-23? man. idk how i managed to do 2 posts a week regularly for all of 2021 but take me back to those peaceful days huhuhu 🥴 all in all, i'm alright dw!!

im absolutely honoured to hear that you've been inspired by my art!! it's very humbling to know u've taken the time to get such meaningful things out of the.... whatever it is ive been making HAAHAHA 🙇‍♀️🙇‍♀️ THANK YOUUU and i hope you keep creating!! nothing would make me happier than to see you continue pursuing ur art and i hope to see it one day for myself 🤞 HOHOOO??

i received a few more check-in asks from some other nonnies, so i'll follow up with them here ❤️ thank you to everyone who sent in things!! ur all too nice aughhh

ill throw in a lil post-angband sketch w/ amras n mae, bc i was in a mood to draw some cosy comfort things 🤗 (surviving) redheads gotta stick together !!

[deadqueernoldor]

Thinking thoughts about those from Cuivienen and how they later treated the Valar, especially after Cuivienen was destroyed.

I imagine a foundation of sorrow and a layer of betrayal and pettiness. They had promised safety. And how did it turn out? Kin of Tata and Tatie their first leaders, slain in Valinor by the Dark Hunter from which the Valar promised protection in Valinor.

And then, the War of Wrath comes and with it the destruction of Cuivienen.

If any of those were re-embodied in Aman, I wonder if they make it a point to always turn their back to Valar and Maiar. I wonder if they only speak in the tongue they had first devised all those millennia ago and spoke in Cuivienen before time and different kindreds changed the tongue, not Sindarin or Quenya from the Great Journey's time or later. I wonder if they sing songs in their ancient tongue, songs about the beauty and unsullied health of Cuivienen every time any of the Ainur are near.

I wonder if the Valar feel any shame when those who they once looked upon in wonder and love gaze back at them with indifference or disgust.

[heireign]

WHAT TAROT CARD ARE YOU ?

JUSTICE — what would you do to ensure justice? you know full well i don’t speak of lofty ideals and courts and magistrates, dearest. what would you do to those that hurt you? if I dropped them in your lap, what would you do? what kind of pain could you possibly inflict upon them? you are right to do so. you are right to want to do so. ignore the screaming, dearest, you are the hand of justice now, and they hurt you. do not look too closely at their faces, dearest. you are within your rights. you spell out your own rights, now. are you happy about it? are you certain that this is the right person you hold by the hair? does your anger hurt less now?

tagged by: @nonpareil

tagging: @lenfear , @wulfmaed , @oflorien , @belayadeath , @sanctamater , @lcerys , and @zalarys

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

On Finrod’s battle with Sauron

There’s an interpretation of this scene that the battle of songs showed Finrod’s pride and hubris, and that he lost because of it, but that doesn’t make sense to me.

For one thing, Finrod only fought Sauron to protect Beren and their companions. It’s not like he sought out a duel with him or had a misplaced belief that he would win, the way Sauron sought out a duel with Huan. I’m sure Finrod didn’t think he would win. He sang a song of resisting.

If anything, Finrod’s decision to go on the quest with Beren shows his humility, because he doesn’t see himself as more important than the Edain, and he considers keeping his word to Barahir to be more important than his own safety.

Finrod’s loss to Sauron doesn’t reflect his pride; it reflects the fact that Sauron is a Maia and is far more powerful. And I think there’s something else going on.

He chanted a song of wizardry, Of piercing, opening, of treachery, Revealing, uncovering, betraying. Then sudden Felagund there swaying, Sang in answer a song of staying, Resisting, battling against power, Of secrets kept, strength like a tower, And trust unbroken, freedom, escape; Of changing and of shifting shape, Of snares eluded, broken traps, The prison opening, the chain that snaps. Backwards and forwards swayed their song. Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong The chanting swelled, Felagund fought, And all the magic and might he brought Of Elvenesse into his words. Softly in the gloom they heard the birds Singing afar in Nargothrond, The sighing of the Sea beyond, Beyond the western world, on sand, On sand of pearls in Elvenland. Then the gloom gathered; darkness growing In Valinor, the red blood flowing Beside the Sea, where the Noldor slew The Foamriders, and stealing drew Their white ships with their white sails From lamplit havens. The wind wails, The wolf howls. The ravens flee. The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea. The captives sad in Angband mourn. Thunder rumbles, the fires burn— And Finrod fell before the throne.

It’s worth pausing for a moment just to say that I think this is one of Tolkien’s most beautiful and powerful poems. The imagery is amazing. It gives me chills every time. I love how you can hear what he’s describing, like the birds softly singing, and the repetition of ‘the sighing of the sea beyond, beyond the western world, on sand, on sand of pearls in Elvenland…’ And then the way he uses color—the red blood, the white ships—just makes it even more intense. The alliteration! The rhyming! The increasingly short sentences, and the crescendo of the last line! It’s literally INCREDIBLE.

I think it’s worth analyzing the imagery of the Kinslaying and why it seemingly allows Sauron to win—it appears that Finrod draws on the ‘magic and might’ of Nargothrond and Valinor, and then Sauron turns it on him by singing about Alqualondë—but my impression from this is not that Finrod is too proud.

Sauron was never able to learn their identities (‘secrets kept’), none of the companions betrayed each other (‘trust unbroken’), Finrod broke his chains (‘the chain that snaps’), the fortress is destroyed (‘the prison opening’), and Beren is rescued by Lúthien (‘freedom, escape’).

What if it was Finrod’s song of power that later allowed him to break his chains and save Beren from the wolf? What if Finrod actually shaped reality with his song of power?

Yes, Sauron defeated him, that was almost inevitable. But Finrod’s song still achieved something, even after it was over. I think Finrod knew he couldn’t win. I think winning wasn’t his objective. Protecting Beren was.

[sesamenom]

apologies for the lack of art lately, i just got new glasses and am still adjusting :(

in the meantime, anyone have thoughts about lomion and tyelpe's relationship in the reverse gondolin au?

[riding-with-the-wild-hunt]

gnawing like a dog with a bone on celegorm being forever sort of jealous that fingon kinslayed for maedhros and aredhel didn’t for him.. knowing that he should be grateful that she’s free and never being able to let go of the fact that she wouldn’t kill for him. being glad and impressed that she stuck to her principles while also resenting her for standing aside when fingon didn’t. never quite shaking the feeling that it was disloyalty but also not wanting her to follow him without resistance but also wanting her to be his attack dog and heel when he says so

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

A considerable motivator for Sirion was actually the deaths of the middle brothers— who would’ve wanted to pursue the Silmaril further. Yes, there was the oath, but also the fear that their brother’s had died in vain.

[brynnmclean]

One day I'm going to do a meta post pulling from all the info we get about Celeborn just to show how not boring he is and that there is actually a fair amount of character to him that we're able to extrapolate from Tolkien's texts (including notes). Like. Sorry to everyone who thinks he's a non-entity, imo you're not paying attention. 😂

[ladystoneboobs]

wrt valonqar speculation, if the valonqar is allowed to be someone else's unrelated younger sibling, let's stretch that to use the "but maester aemon said gender doesn't matter in hv" clause to mean the valonqar is not even restricted to being a younger brother either. that makes just as much sense as noting the prophecy says the valonqar, not your valonqar. what if cersei is killed by someone else's sister who keeps a lannister vendetta list? no, i don't mean arya stark, dummies. i mean her undead mother, lady stoneheart!

but catelyn was an eldest child, not anyone's younger sibling you say? wrong! "Her two older brothers had both died in infancy", meaning she was actually a younger, thirdborn child. if the valonqar is not restricted to cersei's own brothers, and could be younger siblings in general, why not count someone who was a younger sister only to two dead brothers she never knew? of all the non-lannister younger siblings, did anyone else specifically dream of strangling cersei? ("dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black." compare that to the valonqar prophecy of "the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you." why else would grrm ever repeat the unique phrasing of "white throat" in such a way? obviously it has to mean something!) and the chapter where cat speaks of her dreams of choking cersei (Catelyn V, aCoK) comes right before her chapter revealing the existence of two dead elder brothers (Catelyn VI, aCoK). that can't be a coincidence, people! grrm wants us to connect those two facts in the back of our minds, so when the true valonqar is revealed it will be shocking but make perfect sense in retrospect to those few of us who have been paying attention.

c'mon now, folks! who has a higher lannister threat level: the former lannister dog who killed his brothers' goons only in self-defense and became a lamed dog; the knight of flowers who has only ever killed baratheon soldiers, his own men included; some child whose little hands probably can't strangle anyone; or the spirit of vengeange hunting down all frey- and lannister-affiliated enemies, who had cersei lannister near the top of her hit list before her death? i rest my case. accept no other non-lannister valonqar substitutions.