#sophocles philoctetes

[katerinaaqu]

Odysseus: You can say whatever you want about me!

Neo: It was so unfair! He didn't deserve the armor

Odysseus: *remembering how he persuaded Agamemnon to give Aias a burial*

Odysseus: ...that was low blow son!

[katerinaaqu]

Hahahaha I have to say I agree haha Homer overly qualifies Odysseus hahaha some people need attention too 😆 🤣

But jokes aside I think it is valid. And what is more is the styles of the two characters. Despite the fact that Odysseus is said to be one of the best archers given how the task he casually performs in the Odyssey is being deemed "impossible" but by n large his weapon of choice, ironically, is the spear. His skill in spear is being praised repeatedly and in most scenes of the Iliad we see Odysseus as a spear holder or a swordsman rather than an archer. Even in his hunt of the Parnassus boar Odysseus uses a spear rather than a bow and arrows.

Teucer is being seen fighting exclusively with his bow and arrows. What is more he has developed a great tecnique to collaborate with his brother Ajax and shoots arrows from behind his shield. Being much more flexible not to mention that he has to peak through the shield once and shoot fast before ducking back down which means he has an excellent eye and body coordination.

That drives me to the conclusion that even if one can praise the skill Odysseus has in archery maybe one can say he has much greater arm and shoulder power making him better at drawing a heavier bow, he seems to be more of a stationary archer compared to Teucer. His task at Odyssey is completed while seated down on a stool while aiming carefully to achieve the task while controlling his heavy bow. Of course he cannot be fully stationary given how ancient bow tecniques always involve movement (see for example in hunting) but Odysseus never showed his technique so intensely in battle field while running and fighting as Teucer has. Even when he had to kill the suitors and he used his bow at first he was basically standing in the middle of the room releasing arrows to all directions till Telemachus brings him an armor and a sword. Ironically Odysseus seems to fight more with close ranged weapons than with a bow despite the fact that he is a magnificent archer.

Teucer seems more flexible in his archery and he has used it in warfare too under harsh conditions that require speed precision and coordination. We do not know his full draw power as we know on Odysseus but in the battlefield sometimes it is not the point. Teucer has killed more opponents in warfare with his bow than Odysseus

Now would Odysseus come on top in an archery match where they sit stationary and aim at targets? Perhaps who knows? Would he win on who can draw a heavy bow? Most likely. But I agree I believe putting them all together Teucer is objectively better archer than Odysseus exactly because of his tecnique development and use. And I absolutely agree. In Philoctetes he absolutely wasn't seeming humble. Even if one could say he would try to appear humble just for the sakes of it it doesn't seem so in here at all indeed. He seems to be totally appreciative of Teucer's talent.

reasons why i think teucer was the bestest greek archer at troy

philoctetes only ever shoots with heracles' magic bow and arrows that can't miss. there's no indication that philoctetes himself is a skilled archer

when odysseus taunts philoctetes (in the philoctetes) he says they have great archers of their own to replace him, and he mentions teucer BEFORE he suggests himself (and odysseus is at his meanest so he's NOT acting humble)

odysseus is the greatest orator, the greatest schemer, an amazing carpenter and swordsman and sailor and wrestler and discus thrower and, yes, archer. also he has athena in his corner to make him fast and strong and buff and beautiful. LET MY BOY TEUCER BE GOOD AT HIS ONE THING 😭

[eleancrvances]

my uni staged philoctetes and one of the best choices was to have odysseus walk in with a cigarette through the entrance directly beneath the "no smoking" sign

[mythosphere]

Just finished rereading Sophocles' Philoctetes and all I remember is Odysseus giving Neoptolemus a crash course in Lying

[riseandfallofsecunit]

Binary Mind

[achillesisnotcomingdown]

When I was reading Philoctetes I thought of something.

What if, when it was decided to bring Neoptolemus to Troy, Odysseus immediately decided that he will be the father figure this boy is lacking. And he takes his duty very seriously!

The problem is, this feeling is totally one sided.

Ody tries so hard, and Neo thinks that (at best) he's weird or (at worst) a total loser.

He actually prefers/look up to Diomedes, or even Philoctetes, over Odysseus

[the-goddess-of-annoying]

neoptolemus: hey why are you screaming is it because of that agonizing injury you were telling me about

philoctetes: ...no

[classicsstudentsunion]

JORGE!!!! ALLUDE TO THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE HORRORS OF THE TROJAN WAR MORE OFTEN AND MY LIFE!!! IS YOURS!!!!!!!!

[clementinestra]

TROY'S LAST NIGHTMARE

coming out as a neoptolemus truther rip hate this guy holding him in my arms and also setting him on fire. but like lovingly.

something genuinely makes me crazy about how sophocles wrote him in philoctetes vs how he turns out in the trojan war/aeneid. what made him Like That! ive been trying to crack him open like a walnut for the last two years give or take and i think im. getting somewhere? part of a bigger project i have in mind with this guy (said with the distinct intention of putting him through a few cycles in the washer-dryer and seeing what happens).

for now though here's a first pass at some armor and creepy blue eyes. someone get him fucking brown contacts or something please god

[dr-dendritic-trees]

So I have just read Philoctetes...

And I think in some way Telemachus and Neoptolemus have the same basic adolescence and its just entirely a bunch of adults shouting at them "why aren't you your father!" while they sit there like "I never even met that guy! Cut me some slack!"

It makes me sad.

[katerinaaqu]

Wait did Odysseus really get like insulted as sisyphus' bastard son is like he related to that guy who tried tricking death twice

Yes it appears so. In many plays like Sophocles or Eurypedes, characters who dislike him or wish to offend him seem to be calling him "Son of Sisyphus" and het the chorus always chants him as "Son of Laertes" which I find it interesting so it seems to me more like a rumor or an insult for him rather than his real heritage.

As I answred to another amazing ask by @autumn0689 in the past here It is a very interesting subject. So forgive me for the length!

For starters Odysseus is being insulted as a bastard, an illegitimate son. As I answered to the amazing ask by @leynaeithnea about illegitimate children here being illegitimate was a source of shame on its own. I mean even nowadays to call someone "You bastard!" is an insult. Back then it ran even deeper because being an insult of one's heritage (since they believed nobility runs in blood especially the Athenian writers that imposed this). Odysseus is technically a king to mention that as a king he is not legitimate son is like saying he has no right to his position; that he is not even supposed to be there; that he is not worth of it. They also indirectly insult his family as well; Laertes has no legitimate son, his wife was disloyal to him and had a child with another man and Laertes chose to take that child as his own. Calling Odysseus "bastard of Sisyphus" is basically an insult to his entire famiy (thus me making Odysseus go mad at Philoctetes in my random story here

And as I answered to the previous ask it all melts down to who is Sisyphus; a sinner, someone who cheated on the gods twice, someone that as you said cheated on death himself and now he is being punished eternally. Sisyphus was in a way used as the embodiment of human arrogance, shame and example for punishment. They basically call Odysseus the bastard son of the most sinful man. That was to insult him by the way Odysseus too often uses indirect methods to achieve his goals. They basically say "the apple fell under the apple tree". Odysseus cannot be the spawn of a possible Argonaut. He must be the child of a sinful person given how he is not the ideal warrior for his time. Indirectly or not they were saying that Odysseus was the embodiment of trickery, of human arrogance and of someone that will mock even the gods to achieve his goals (ironically that is not the case at least with Homeric hero as we know he was one of the most pious to the gods among his peers -praised by Zeus himself- despite him being known for his great hubris to Poseidon) Another thing him being accused as son of Sisyphus does is to diminish his godly line. Anticlea, his mother, is the grandaughter of Hermes in many sources. Once again Odysseus cannot be possibly sharing his bloodline with the gods! He must be the spawn of something sinful! Thus again the insult.

So far the worst mention of it I have heard was in "Philoctetes", where Philoctetes is so furious at Odysseus that not only does he say he is the illegitimate son of Sisyphus but he takes it a step further and insinuates that Sisyphus sold Odysseus to Laertes. So not only does he call Odysseus the illegitimate spawn of a sinner and a result of adultery but he also says that Odysseus is not worth more than the average slave, given how Laertes buys him from his father for money. But again what intrigues me is that the choir around still calls him "Son of Laertes". Even when Menelaus calls him "son of Sisyphus" in "Iphigeneia en Aulis" the choir still calls him "Son of Laeretes". So it seems more like a rumor or an insult among his peers rather than an actual irrefutable fact.

Hahaha I have come to the conclusion that at this point "Son of Sisyphus" means "son of a bitch" really! XD

For Odysseus himself being called basically a "cockroach that refuses to die" might as well be almost like a compliment and in many cases he has spoken as if he doesn't care for other people hating him (for example in Philoctetes he mentions how he can be literally anything the situation calls for) but I have to be honest by the ideals of his time I do not think he would like it. That would imply not only that his blood is impure but also that he is not equal to the others, that he is not worth to be at their presence and let's face it no one likes the prostect of their own family being dragged to the mud. Odysseus himself doesn't seem always affected by talk on the surface (in Philoctetes he even gives permission to Neoptolemous to do so in order to persuade Philoctetes to trust him) but judging by his reactions quite often when insulted, he explodes. So he is not entirely immune to insults. In fact it was one of these insults that made him explode his anger to Polyphemus and comit his blasphemy to Poseidon (and yes I have written something on that too! Hehehe)

Sorry if this was too long! I hope it helps!

[ilions-end]

first thing to wallop me in sophocles' philoctetes is what neoptolemus chooses to say to philoctetes after odysseus has instructed him to lie and say odysseus is their common enemy

ESPECIALLY because odysseus was like "don't worry, you can talk WHATEVER shit you want about me to win his trust, it's all fair game" and neoptolemus is well aware odysseus is hidden nearby and can overhear the conversation

he goes straight into how unfair it was that achillles' weapons went to odysseus!

OUGH. OUGH!! after ajax, sophocles?? and IS neoptolemus lying about his resentment and being a good little soldier, or isn't he? BAM the dramatic tension straight out the gate

[generouskittentidalwave]

What happened with Philoctetes being abandoned was used as a plot device for his character and future events and that's why I never use it to judge Odysseus's character. There, I said it.

The reason I say this? Is because back then the greeks came to an agreement that Philoctetes was left on the island of Lemnos after getting a snake bite, and that Odysseus convinced them to leave him behind.

However, despite all the research, I can never find exactly why Odysseus decided to leave him behind. Some imply that he didn't like all the cries from Philoctetes festering wound and left him behind, in others it's implied that he was forced to leave him behind by the others, others imply that it was a plan in order to find a way to get him back eventually, others imply that Odysseus saw him as a lost cause, that he would weigh them down, etc.. It seems like no one could agree on one thing or a reason why, just that it happened and that was basically it. They weren't really focused on giving Odysseus an in depth reasoning, just that he decided to leave Lemnos behind and that story would be a suprise tool that would help them later.

We may never know Odysseus's true thought process or reasonings as to why, as it is all left to be implied and seeing as there are many versions of Odysseus throughout both greek and modern history combined with the fact that there wasn't a universally agreed upon reasoning for it, I never use it to judge Odysseus's character as it feels impossible to do so.

For me personally, if I had to take an educated guess on his thought process seeing as we don't really know what it was, Odysseus doesn't seem like the kind of guy to just go- "hah, rotting foot? Must be a skill issue lmao" before then just dipping but I don't think he would just blindly be like "Nuuuh my friendo, my bestie has an ouchy we can't leave him behind like this!" Either. Odysseus's is a very complicated man, but was neither saint nor monster either, rather being the inbetween, and that was shown a lot in stories. So I wholeheartedly feel like it probably was the same situation with what happened with the other situations like Iphigenia, Troilus, Polyxena, etc.. where the man either offhandely makes the suggestion or does the hard decisions himself for reasons either known or unknown.

That's atleast my thoughts on it, I know everyone has there own thoughts on it as well ^^ and I could be wrong but please don't beat me over the head if I am ^^", that's just what I think about it all

[catilinas]

legxorcism

[majestativa]

And Echo, who can Be seen far off, her Mouth never closed, sends Back to his sharp cries Her only answer.

— Sophocles, Selected Poems: Odes and Fragments, on Philoctetes, transl by Reginald Gibbons, (2008)

[odysseusisadick]

at the end of philoctetes (sophocles) odysseus tries one last time to take philoctetes to troy since the other try did not work and he just lunged at him and philoctetes literally just raised his bow at him and odysseus was instantly like "okay bye" fled and did not appear on stage again like nice going you fought in many battles before but ok