#sophitz neg

[another-trans-nerd]

This post is discussing why Mileven is unhealthy. Don’t like? Don’t interact.

Funky fresh reminder that mike referred to el as a superhero while max referred to her as someone with superpowers…..

Hmmm 🤔 almost as if mike only sees her as what she does while max sees her as her while still appreciating her for what she can do

And yet milkvan still is viewed as “healthy”?

To compare it to the book series keeper of the lost cities (spoilers ahead), it kinda reminds me of part of Sophie’s arc in the last book.

Essentially, she finally is officially dating the boy she’s liked for years (his name is fitz) but something is…off. When they do their telepathic bond excersises, she sees exactly how he views her in his mind: perfect. He sees her as completely perfect. While a lot of other protagonists might swoon, it just makes Sophie uncomfortable. Why? Because she’s not perfect. She’s made shitloads of mistakes. She’s almost started wars, she’s tripped a bunch, she’s been tricked, lied to, kidnapped, been impulsive, and more. She is complex and flawed and struggling, AKA she is a real person. Fitz doesn’t see her flaws, and therefore does not accept them. It makes Sophie wonder if he’ll still want her when he does accept them. It’s also been showcased in the books that fitz is shocked and enraged when Sophie does mess up, as if she’s not a sixteen year old with the world on her shoulders. He only sees her as the good she’s done and some imaginary picture perfect happy girl, so when things go wrong he lashes out.

This dynamic is later confirmed when Sophie looks at some drawings via her other love interest, keefe. The art is beautiful and really realistic. More so it’s real. He doesn’t filter out any of Sophie’s appearance, like her posture and scars. He recognized the societally dubbed imperfections but doesn’t think she’s any less beautiful. The way he roots for her shows that he sees her for what she is: a capable and powerful person, but still a goofy and clumsy teen. He sees her, all of her, and still loves her fiercely. That’s what Sophie needed, that’s what makes her feel truly loved. Keefe knows of every scar, every mistake, and every problem Sophie has ever had, and he adores her even harder. So Sophie chose him (for now, the series isn’t over).

(I’m not being anti-sophitz, I think it’s a perfectly fine ship (though I don’t ship it myself), but it was fairly toxic the last book, with Fitz’s expectations and neither really being ready for a relationship)

My point is that milkvan is not healthy in the way mike sees el, and she knows it. She’s got darkness in her that mike never acknowledges or talks to her about. He sees her just for her special parts, like her powers, looking past the fact that she has killed people (they deserve it obvi, but like bro you should prob at least talk about the time she exploded like ten peoples brains). Max knows that el has powers, but encourages el to use them how she wants to for once, instead of self defense or for someone else. Max helps her claim ownership of her powers, making them a part of her not just who she is. She’s clearly trying to move past the mentality of doing everything for other people (mike) but goes back to it when it becomes clearer that mike sees her just for her powers.

El deserves to be selfish and have fun. The happiest we see her is when she is doing so. Mike never seems to accept that.

Mike is seemingly only like this with el, and only when they’re actively dating. He doesn’t pressure his other friends like this.

Mileven is an unhealthy relationship.

The duffers show us it’s unhealthy by comparing it to healthier relationships like elmax and how different they are.

Mike and El had a healthier relationship when it was platonic, and they will again when they (hopefully) break up next season.

El is caught in the same trap she’s been in since br*nner wired it into her brain. She equates her self worth with what she can do for others, and what the current presence in her life wants from her. It’s not her fault, it’s a result of her trauma.

Which is why she needs to be without a partner or major male presence in her life for a while. To learn to love herself regardless of what she can do for others, and without the influence of anyone else.

TLDR: milkvan needs to break up Jesus Christ

[bookwyrminspiration]

quil fee free to answer this in private i'm just curious but what the FUCK is going on in the kotlc fandom because i'm looking through the tags and either i've blocked exactly the right ppl or it's all a lot of wind for nothing?? i'm confused and nosy

Ah yeah, looking through the tag isn't a great sample of what I was commenting on, because it's more an ongoing thing the past few months.

Essentially, keepblr has gotten a recent influx of people, which as always, means an adjustment period. This one is just taking its sweet time to work out, which is going a little rougher because some keefe/fitz and love triangle drama has started to seep into the fandom along with it. it's exacerbated in part by confession blogs and unraveled's existence

There's just been consistent things popping up like clockwork every time it feels like we get past another. There's ongoing keefe/fitz arguments, sokeefe/sophitz arguments, keefe taking over the narrative, some spamming, disagreement about ship names (which is quite ridiculous in my opinion. so much so im not even gonna bother anymore), a few convos about race here and there, etc.

Just an overall trend towards negativity that's been going on for a while. And at first its like yeah, bumps in the road, it happens. but it's been long enough i'm a little like. are we seriously still on this. we are NOT letting this be our new normal this SUCKS. you know?

[spaceagebachelormann]

hi i’m stealing this from @solutopia <3

she did colours! but i’m associating my moots with artists instead for funsies!

also i couldnt put all of y’all cause some of u i haven’t spoken to enough to have a proper opinion :( but if u wanna be in part 2 js start sending me asks and i’ll be able to quickly make observations abt u!

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @juneberrie — LIZ!!! my silly pookie <3 ur so so silly and u make me feel like i can talk abt my interests without being judged or made fun of which is something my friends growing up didn’t give me, ilysm and ur artist is laufey

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @isitoversnowtvs — JAS!!! my wife <3 ur such a cutie and even if our music tastes are different i still thinks urs is really cool and unique and i love it and u sm ! ur artist is taylor swift

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @cannibalizedyke — MERE!!! my favourite frankenstein girlie <3 ur so bad at roblox /aff. but that’s okay cause ur really sweet and i love bothering u out of nowhere and u kinda remind me of lizzie hearts. ur artist is marina

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @renqiisnce — DAL!!! pookie bear ilysm. ur music taste is actually amazing and ur opinions are always so right. i’m mailing u peter criss. ur artist is kiss.

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @cau-lee-flower215 — LEE!!! ajsjejendjsndn u always have the best and silliest thoughts and ur so cool and ily <3 it genuinely makes me so happy everytime we talk ur so creative! ur artist is elton john

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @lunarluvbot — CHERRY!!! ugh you /j. ur so silly and match my energy perfectly and ur so fun to talk to and u let me rant abt peter pevensie for hours at a time. ur artist is madonna

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @lunarfleur — MICK!!! i love u. ur such a nice and genuine person and so fun and interesting to talk to and i wish we were closer </3 but ilysm and ur artist is elvis presley

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @madwickedawesome — JUNO!!! my absolute favourite person to bother. ur so fucking funny and i love playing roblox with u and u shoukd dm me on discord more often. ur artist is mischa bachinski debussy.

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @sluggmuffin SLUG!!! RAHHHH u have the best fulton thoughts (so does lee and mick) ajakaksjajsj. ur such a cutie patootie and we should become super bsfs do u have discord. ur artist is the beatles

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @solutopia — SOLANA!!! we dtm but ur so sweet and ur themes are always so gorgeous. ur such a beautiful person even if i don’t know what u look like and i have a lot of respect for u! ur artist is beabadoobee

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @presidentroarie — AUTUMN!!! my first mutual on tumblr! i love u sm and even when people don’t agree with u on sophitz ur so accepting of it and don’t judge them <3 i’m so glad we’re friends and i love u! ur artist is bob dylan

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @inkluvs — IVY!!! ur so pretty omg? and ur so sweet and ur fics and headcanons are amazing and even though we don’t talk a lot when we do it’s so silly and i’ll be giggling <3 ur artist is julie london!

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @faerieroyal — DOLLY!!! the only person who understands my love for adam and mr hyde,, literally my older sibling figure. ur so sweet and supportive and i feel so comfortable around u!! ur artist is ella fitzgerald

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @orangelovesyou ORANGE!!! my favourite ricky artist <3 such a silly and kinda babies me a little but i don’t mind!! so nice and silly and fun to talk to <3 ur artist is lady gaga

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @homeofhyperfixations — PERSE!!! i havent talked to u in so long :( but ur so creative and so nice and i love hearing about ur ocs and their lore and love interests it’s so interesting <3 ur artist is alice in chains

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @luckynature — BELLA!!! ur so funny omg? we should talk more pookie <3 i barely know u but u remind me a lot of ocean for some reason? also tammy? idk why !! also ur artist is weezer

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @moonlarked — AUR!!! my favourite hamlet lover! all ur hamlet thoughts and opinions are always so right and cause of u i now actually understand a lot more of hamlet then i did before <3 ur artist is type o negative

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @shefollowedthestars — NOVA!!! guys nova is the sweetest person to walk this earth. everytime we talk i live in fear of someone hurting ur sweet soul in anyway because u absolutely don’t deserve that. i heavily associate u with calm vintage music so ur artist is skeeter davis

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @doyouknowwhoyouare13 — NYX!!! ur so funny ily! i kinda forgot all of our interactions cause my memory is absolute shit but i always start giggling when thinking of u cause i remember u being really funny <3 ur artist is falling in reverse

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @starstruckwillows — JESSIE!!! omg i also need to talk to u alot more? ur so cutie patootie! one of my most favourite moot writers on this app /srs. ur artist is beyoncé

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @janesociety — JANE!!! pookie u always have rlly pretty themes and i love it! ur also super super nice and amazing and fun to be around! ur artist is the smiths

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @herrscherofsentence — JADE!!! ur hyperfixations are so cool! and i love all of ur names sm and the asks u send me always make me start giggling to myself cause they’re so funny! ur artist is tv girl

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @larsgoingtomars — SOPHIE!!! i genuinely love ur shifting stories so so much. and i absolutely love talking about bowie with u and u make me feel like i can talk to u about anything without being judged which i adore! ur artist is metallica

˚₊· ͟͟͞͞➳❥ @sp1rit-realm — HANNAH!!! i’m ngl i used to be scared to talk to u cause u seemed rlly cool,, but i’m glad i did cause that one james thought u sent me still has me twirling my hair over him. ur artist is guns n roses

[crescentpaws]

💛: What is a popular ship you just can't get behind, and why?

🖤: Which character is not as morally good as everyone else seems to think?

💖: What is your biggest unpopular opinion about the series?

1: sokeefe 😭 i’m sorryyy but i just don’t really like keefe and i don’t think he’s a good match for sophie. if he develops as a character more and stops betraying sophie’s trust then MAYBE i’ll reconsider

also don’t really understand the recent hype around solinh and lava cake….. personally i just don’t see any chemistry between them and i think they’re definitely better off as friends

2. hmmm maybe dex? 💀 he’s not a pure innocent cinnamon roll y’all he can be a real dick sometimes. and he would definitely kill someone.

also oralie…. some of the stuff she did (or DIDN’T do) was a bit fucked up if you take everything into consideration

3. probably that. i don’t like keefe. LMAO. and not for reasons like “i ship sophitz” or “he’s a bad person” or “he should just get over his trauma,” but because i simply find him annoying 👍 like. that is the worst thing a character can be in my opinion because it actually affects me in a negative way 😭 i’m sure if i was in the kotlc universe we would end up being friends but reading about him is just. ughhh (also some keefe stans get on my nerves SO much. which isn’t fair to hold against him but too bad)

also almost everything that happened in stellarlune felt unnecessary and so much more actual plot stuff could’ve happened if a lot of it was cut down. we did not need all of that.

[softmoonlightmelody]

in general, i take a more neutral to negative stance on sokeefe, for several reasons.

first off, i haven't read stellarlune yet, so that might change my mind. i'm not against spoilers so i do know stuff.

okay, so sokeefe feels really unhealthy to me. sophie cannot rely on keefe, and her relying on keefe is really important! at the same time, you cannot tell me keefe has a healthy vision of who sophie is.

sophitz is also okay for me. it's definitely healthier (and better!) than sokeefe to me, but it doesn't satisfy the ship itch, so...

anyway, onto problems with sokeefe.

(technically stellarlune spoilers i've picked up)

sokeefe is relatively... interesting. they're not at a space or at a place where they can be a realistic healthy couple.

plus, i don't think keefe is ready at all for any romantic relationship. sophie is undoubtedly not ready. didn't she break up with fitz like a month ago?

i know fitz's feeling don't matter but imagine you and a girl break up, right? and then your best friend/former best friend (neither of your know which it is) starts dating her like a month later. idk about timelines but there's something about this that just feels... insensitive? wrong? both.

idk, neither sophie or keefe is ready for sokeefe, and even so, it feels really disrespectful to fitz too. yes, i know he doesn't really matter, but at the same time you have to take a step back and think about other people's reactions to your relationship.

[sophitz]

Is it true another sophitz blog blocked you

Yes but I don’t think it’s personal as we’ve never spoken. I learned from one of their mutuals that they liberally block anyone who is loudly critical of KOTLC, which I am. And I understand not everyone wants that kind of negativity in their fandom experience. But I sometimes come across their posts and wish I could reblog them!

[everliving-everblaze]

Writing so much Sophie and Fitz has finally brought me to the realization of why Shannon Messenger needed a Keefe so desperately after writing a draft without him. Do you know how PAINFUL it is to have Fitz say something arrogant with a grin, and to have Sophie blush in response, and to NOT have a Keefe to go “you two stop right now or I will clobber you”?

man. SOMEONE has to take this dude down a peg. PLEASE he’s nearly unbearable when everyone just accepts his nonsense

[enbies-and-felonies]

HOLY FUCKING SHIT

[keeperseries]

weird how sophie got together with fitz as if she could be in a more emotionally intimate relationship than the one she has with keefe

[makushiin]

So I picked up on kotlc during quarantine after some reccomendations on Pinterest and I’m usually the type to want to know a bit more about each character individually so

Here are basically the things I like noticing about our favorite moonlark, Sophie Foster!!

Although she said that she much now prefers working as a team and with other people, her secretive works-alone side has shown no sign of ever actually dissapearing in the series so far.

Although she is normally optimistic towards her friends, in most of her inner monologues (esp in the first books) she is actually extremely pessimistic.

(Most noticeably) She has now developed a sarcastic sassy personality as a self-defense mechanism as pointed out by Cassius (I aint calling him a lord f*ck him)

(Idk if this is noticeable) I think in the whole group she has these sub-groups of people and depending on the sub-groups, the more or less they know or are personally involved in the events happening and yes I am including Team Valiant in these so called sub-groups

(Most noticeably) She plans, overthinks, and theorizes on a daily basis and when that happens, she tends to tune out everyone and everything around her to the point where the others are probably very annoyed by that (as seen from Dex and Amy)

“Fuck it” *continues to try very hard*

Actually feels very detached from the Lost Cities, as mentioned in Unlocked. Not sure if that would be plot-related in the future but is interesting to know

Even though her life is more on the Lost Cities I’m gonna mention some human things lol

Was actually bullied her entire life, both from skipping so many grades and from Amy

Prefers to live more in the world of movies, music, comic books, and books rather than people

(This is a bit more of a stretch and I mean a huge stretch) I think she has the ability to be manipulative if she needs/wants but is not intentional but again as I said a stretch

(Another stretch) Might have PTSD from her time in France and the shadowflux attack

(ThE OnE ThIng EvErYonE PrActiCaLlY KnOws AbOuT Her) Has insomnia

When someone compliments her she doesn’t believe it

Constantly second-guesses herself

As said by Keefe, she thinks everyone has a bad thought about her because even the closest people to her have said not-so-kind things and it wouldn’t be a stretch that others would have similar thoughts and as an instinct assumes there’s a negative thought and opinion about her always.

Final Note: One thing I notice about her more often than not that I also think is kinda a stretch is that she has more of an identity loss, it’s like she’s sort of at a lost on who “Sophie Foster” really is. In the latest books, she uses her Moonlark title as her motivation to win over the Neverseen but to me it’s also like she’s degrading herself like she’s overprotective, kind, smart, feisty, incredibly determined and trustworthy. It is no joke she will sacrifice her life for her friends in a heartbeat. But I think she believes that as the moonlark with her multiple abilities, she could win this without seeing that all the qualities that also make her Sophie Foster has gotten her this far as well

This is also one of the reasons why I don’t normally join the shipping war between Sophitz and Sokeefe because I want her to know who she is first, to achieve the sense of normalcy she’s been wanting since Day 1, to know who she really is aside from being the leader of Team Valiant, the leader of the Keeper group, the experiment of the Black Swan and all that.

I also think this is a stretch because obviously her friends, basically everyone has contributed in helping her achieve the normal she has now and her identity as Sophie but it’s been one of my first observations (Its almost a guess at this point) since the first book and I thought it’d be okay to point it out.

I usually have more and might do other characters soon but I like doing these kinds of stuff and I really love Sophie so yeah thanks if any of you actually see this lol are there other things about Sophie that’s more or less hidden but is also kinda obvious?

[bookwyrminspiration]

quil, any thoughts on the debate over manipulative fitz and his narcissistic tendencies in his relationship with sophie? (in the notes of the post from @/sophitz from 5 days ago)

Hi, Nonsie. I'll share a few thoughts, but I have absolutely zero desire to get wrapped into active discourse/arguments about this. This is non-exhaustive since I can't address every possible point/consideration in one post, but it covers more the heart of it I think.

I may or may not answer any follow-ups/reblogs about this, unsure yet. I really hope my answering this does not put it on a pedestal from which it catches fire, so everyone be cool please

I think it's ridiculous, unfounded, and frustrating. The original term used and debated was "narcissistic pervert." From what I can tell, that term originated with Paul-Claude Racamier in the 1980s-90s, and the only academic source I could find/access on the topic was his "On narcissistic perversion", which was a synthesis published in 2017 of a 1985 and 1991 paper + lecture. I can't link this because I could only access it through my uni, and I can't find basically any trustworthy sources (or any more recent sources) talking about it outside of him--at least in English. There may be other papers/professionals in untranslated French

From that, I'm highly skeptical of any use of the term colloquially, especially since it involves narcissism, which has an extremely misunderstood, negatively biased rep currently. Practically the only things you find when looking into perverted narcissism are informal blogs perpetuating stigma (e.g.: "If you’ve been in contact with a narcissistic pervert, remember that if he’s chosen you, it’s because you represent to him what he’ll never be able to be: a whole person!" <- real quote)

When reading Racamier's paper, I kept Fitz in mind--and specifically Fitz with Sophie, as that was a distinction made in the argument. That Fitz has perverted narcissist tendencies when it comes to Sophie specifically. I don't find that, based on my reading, to be true.

A few features of narcissistic perversion Racamier notes are (verbatim): it is vital to them not to owe anything to anyone, the inability to apologize and the rejection of remorse, the inability to express thanks, subjects impose a heavy burden on anyone who comes close to and concerns himself or herself with them, expresses his (narcissistic) perversion by his enjoyment of asserting himself at the expense of others, etc.

I don't find any of these traits to be true to Fitz, with Sophie or otherwise. Not wanting to be in others' debt is normal, and I can't think of an instance he reacted to the idea disproportionately (I suppose directly after Alden broke could count, but one instance does not a narcissist make), he's demonstrated a clear ability to apologize/be remorseful sincerely (including with Sophie specifically), to express genuine gratitude, doesn't consciously or intentionally impose on those close to him (it isn't his fault if others don't communicate any burden they experience so he can alter his actions, e.g. the stress of matching), and doesn't enjoy tearing others down around him to lift himself up (unless in a joke environment).

The paper goes on to talk about predation on a specific object (in this case Sophie). This object is "bearable only if it is dominated, ill‐treated, and sadistically attacked – and above all mastered." I find none of these words to be accurate to Fitz and Sophie's relationship--he does not dominate or master her, nor does he want to. He does struggle with being so rapidly unseated as the best, and wants to be someone others look to and trust, someone capable. But an instance of understandable jealousy that he doesn't want to feel/give in to (evidenced during the Inquisition as he fought the feeling) does not make him a narcissist. He simultaneously enthusiastically supports and compliments Sophie's prowess.

I know I referenced this one specific paper near entirely, but it appears to be the only thing to reference. And I am not a professional in any regard. This is my understanding of the term based on Racamier's explanation, which I've referenced against Fitz. The behaviors and mindset associated with narcissistic perversion (summarized as "the predominant need to assert, and the pleasure of asserting, oneself at someone else's expense") do not widely align with Fitz's (as a whole or just with Sophie)--and the instances in which they do aren't demonstrative of a pattern on which a claim like this can hold ground. I wish I could find the exact quote from another source I was looking at, but it's essentially: there are traits/tendencies of disorders in everyone, what makes them disordered is when they're abnormally extreme.

This is longer than I intended it to be so I'll try to wrap this up. This is in direct response to the idea of Fitz as a narcissistic pervert, which is what the discourse in the post you referenced discussed/started from. This doesn't talk about NPD or every point referenced by the individuals discoursing, as this isn't intending to respond to them. I am not an expert.

Based on my understanding and limited research, I think it inaccurate and callous. I think it misrepresents Fitz's actions and motivations, and while I am biased, I think this holds outside of my bias.

[bookwyrminspiration]

why is legacy your least favourite of the series now? (btw I haven’t reread kotlc in forever all I remember is that Tam is gone and Keefe is having a Bad Time)

I think what happened is that upon rereading the other 2 I disliked, I realized their faults weren't as bad as I'd remembered, and Legacy just has very little to draw me in, and everything else is not to my taste. I'd been denying it for a while I think, trying to stay positive, but in being honest with myself this last reread it just really bothers and upsets me at times. I can try to articulate it, but there's a lot of layers that even I don't understand to my reaction, so heads up

(nothing against anyone who enjoys legacy!! i'm simply not one of you. this is your warning that this is a more critical/less positive post and perspective on legacy. if you don't want to see that, don't look)

Sophie's relationships are an inevitable part of the story the way it's written; it becomes very prevalent here, and none of it's positive, it's just more conflict--and not even satisfying conflict, to me. I'm queer in a way that doesn't involve romance and attraction, and I could not care less about Sophie's drama. And I know people talk about the importance of connecting to stories about people with experiences you don't have, but I don't think this is one of them. I've read fantasy stories with conflicted romance before, and even though I'm very attached to these characters...I just don't care for how Shannon's doing it.

I won't deny that part of it is frustration and anger knowing how some people take what happened in Legacy to further unfairly demonize Fitz (who is one of my top 2 characters)--and that part of that will be done in a "see how toxic Fitz is? Keefe is so perfect for her instead" kinda way. Which bothers me because it ignores so much about so many characters, not just Fitz. And I know they are entitled to their thoughts and interactions as much as I am, and I try not to let it get to me too much (curating my own experience and all that), but I can't deny that I'm at least aware of it. And that that knowledge negatively impacts my reading experience when I become more conscious of it. at least at the moment

And I suppose it also just makes it obvious the disconnect between me and the story. I can brush past Sophie's crush musings and brief flustered moments. But an entire book where a significant conflict is her failing relationship and searching for her parents to try and fix said relationship? It's like a whole book of "hey! here's something really important to most people!! that isn't to you! remember how different you are?" To be clear, I don't mind being different, I quite like the kind of queer I am. I don't want to change it.

It's more like a...well now I have to put up with and trudge through this tiresome stereotypical shit in a series I really like, too? I poke a lot of fun, but Keeper is genuinely a really important and prevalent series in my life, even though its not my favorite. And it's like...here, too?

I'm not opposed to relationships in fiction, there are several I quite enjoy and they can have very important places and purposes! Keeper just isn't one of them that really speaks to me--at least in canon. I don't like how sophitz was written, I don't like how Sophie's been characterizing Fitz and Keefe, I don't like her reaction to and focus on her match status even though I understand it from a character perspective. Their relationships just haven't been the compelling kind to me

I could try and link all this to like, poor writing or inconsistent characterization or catering to fans and things like that. I could probably come up with a polished argument if I tried, make it technical and about a bunch of mistakes made but at the end of the day? it's really just not to my taste. I just don't like it, even though I can logically understand why most things happened, how they were in character and contribute to their development. I just don't like what happened. I don't like how romance focused it was and how relationships panned out. I'm disappointed sophitz ended how it did, how the characters behaved in their relationships, how Sophie reacted to her match status, her inability to pull herself together for a while, how sidelined Tam's kidnapping felt, how some people will demonize Fitz, etc.

I read keeper for entertainment, and there just was nothing for me. I do what I can to appreciate its place in the series, and to acknowledge when it is true to the characters, including in ways I can't connect to. But this isn't a series I read for self betterment or learning or anything, it's for fun and none of what happened was fun for me (meaning fun in like a satisfying entertainment way including heartbreak and tragedies and horrors, not that it has to be silly and light hearted)

That was probably more than you were expecting; it was more than i was expecting! But it's such a visceral reaction that it's hard to identify and translate, and I'm sure there's more to it I haven't uncovered. in fact as I was writing this the process helped me think through more of my reaction, so thanks for the opportunity :)

[bookwyrminspiration]

i think my views on the kotlc characters have changed a lot as i've gotten older- like when i was younger, around 11 or so, I was a lot more opinionated (and hate-y) towards some of the characters, particularly Keefe, because I saw these Cool Older Teenagers and assumed that they should be able to deal with these things rationally- and then when I was like 14 and around the age of the characters, I had calmed down a little bit and still saw the characters as annoying, but they had their reasons for not being perfect

and now i'm older than that, and my only view is "these kids are so traumatized and they do make mistakes but my GOD, it's because they have no support system whatsoever, I can't really hate these kids, because they're literal children! they are kids, give them a break"

you phrased this so well I am in awe, nonsie! there's this progression of opinions you form on the characters as you go that's shaped by how mature you are at the time. that's not to say 11/12 years old are inherently immature, but just three or four years can make a huge difference this early on in life, and someone who is 16/17 is going to have a very different perspective. it almost feels like middle grade years are the formative years where you shift from being the child who just reads and enjoys it all, to realizing that there's actually outside influence and implications of these worlds. it's like you take off these rose colored glasses you weren't intentionally wearing and suddenly everything actually has a lot more to it than you thought

i can distinctly remember when I first started reading the series (I would've been like...ten) I was actually annoyed with the worldbuilding...because it was exactly what I wanted to write in my own story, and I didn't want to accidentally plagiarize. I literally couldn't think of a more perfect world than keeper, and I loved all the characters and just went along with everything that was written because it was fun and didn't think any more of it. And while I personally didn't have a lot of strong opinions, it was really easy to just hear one thing and go with it. There was actually another girl at my school who read the series who was strongly sophitz, and there wasn't any reasoning behind her argument other than that's just what it should be. So I think reading the story at that age makes it really easy to fall into the "exuberant child who doesn't understand all the nuances of fandom and social media just talking loud" stereotype--you know, like with the all caps screaming about ships and hating characters with no meaning behind what they're saying? I know I've done some of that in the past (and it is incredibly embarrassing to think about, ngl), so please don't think I'm trying to shame or demonize these kinds of people. It's just an observation that people like that are almost always young and grow out of it.

and then when I moved away from that, I mostly kept quite and saw them as my peers, which made it a lot easier to see them as annoying but be less vocal about it. and I think I also separated myself from the story a little more and realized that not everything negative people saw with the story meant that I was a bad person for enjoying it. because I do enjoy keeper! as much shit as I talk and problems that I have with it, at the end of the day I talk about it because keeper means something to me. Being Sophie's age (which ranges from like 11-14 in human years, I think), and especially on the older side, was like a transition into being more critical and aware of the series. I'd read more things since then and just had more experiences, so I no longer idolized the world Shannon had built, but I didn't become more critical of it other than the occasional "hey logically how would this work?" thing. I'd read stories with more complicated plots and more sophisticated word choice, so now keeper and its characters weren't this huge inspiration, though I did still follow along with what a lot of other people said.

but, just like you, now I'm older than Sophie and more in the middle of the friend group. and it's just "oh fuck these characters need help." like the ramifications of all these experiences is going to be serious, and also I'm not as invested in certain characters or things I want as I was when I was ten. I'm not desperate for a pairing or for something specific to happen, I'm just curiously observing how things happen. I don't think I can hate any of the characters (Mr. Forkle and Oralie I do hate, but I also appreciate that I hate them and their contribution to the story even if it is almost entirely in nuance). I genuinely think I could say something positive that I legitimately appreciate about any of the characters in keeper, or something that makes them interesting to me. Ah. I think that's it. The characters are interesting to me now as opposed to just being a vessel to get the story someplace. Their mistakes are no longer annoying but realistic and develop their character, and I like seeing what happens to the story instead of being upset something went wrong. I don't idolize the characters anymore, I guess is a way I could phrase that.

because they really don't have an effective support system, and they really don't know what they're doing. and they're dealing with things no one their age should have to and it's going to have an impact. and I think I'm now more welcoming of that impact and the ramifications as opposed to putting the whole world on some pedestal where I can't recognize it's faults without being personally attacked.

at least, that's how things have gone for me. it may be different for others and that's fine!! just some of the things you described felt similar to my own experiences in fandom and how my perception of the story as a whole changed. and it's really interesting to look back and see how you've changed in regards to the story!!

note: a lot of this was me talking about my own experience, but that's my attempt to show I understand you. not trying to just make it about me !!

[everliving-everblaze]

Toxic Fans: When To Interact—and When Not To

by a seasoned Sophitz shipper

So. We’ve all been there. We’re coasting along, and someone pops out of nowhere with their character, ship, or even personal, hate. What should you do?

Step 1: Evaluate whether you want to interact.

This one is pretty simple. If you aren’t feeling up to it, block them or ignore them, and move on with your life.

Step 2: Evaluate if interacting may be beneficial.

Okay. I’ve done a lot of this over the years, so I know the warning signs.

When you definitely shouldn’t interact

When fans are talking in all-caps and/or saying things like “eww,” I find the most powerful statement is simply walking away from the conversation. Refuse to talk to fans who won’t respect you. Even saying things like “I’m not willing to talk to you if you insult my ship” can just add fuel to the fire in these cases. Fans that are showing signs of immaturity will probably backlash with things like “I wasn’t!” and make themselves the victim.

Second, you shouldn’t interact if you feel “surrounded.” If there’s a possibility that they will respond badly, and there are other fans around that agree with their position, don’t put yourself in that situation. Just walk away.

Third, they’ve insulted your character,* that speaks for itself. If you feel safe doing so, you can say something like "____ hurt my feelings, so I will be unfollowing the thread [or some similar action].” Often toxic fans are just young, so a simple expression of feeling will speak to them—without you doing so. After you say that, don’t let them drag you back into the conversation. You set a boundary saying you wouldn’t discuss further. Don’t. Even if they message you saying that they’re crying because they’re so upset they hurt your feelings. (Did you catch that making themselves the victim?) They’ll get over it, and maybe they’ll do better.

*This absolutely applies to statements like “People who ship ___ are toxic.” If you are one of them, it’s best to let them know that you are one of those people and walk away.

Finally, if they’ve posted a long argument against something you ship or a character you like—scroll on by. They’re looking for someone to argue with. If they’ve posted something about why they ship what they ship or like a character, without bringing in opposing views, you can consider replying if you want to. But that’s a different situation from what we’re talking about here. People who post those aren’t necessarily toxic.

Step 3: Interacting

So, you're going to give it a shot. How do you do it?

If I feel up to it, I’ll usually just reply to with something simple like, “Hey, ____  that you said perpetuates the problem of ____. Would you be willing to fix that?” It’s a direct yes-or-no question that doesn’t let them bounce around answering—and if they do, stop talking to them. You can’t fix it all.

Example 1: A fan says “Fitz should die.” I respond with, “Hey, I understand you feeling that way, but that statement is harmful. People who love Fitz and relate to him (like myself) exist, and whether or not you meant it, they will interpret the statement as applying to themselves. Would you be willing to edit that out?” I’ve successfully humanized “the enemy,” even gently letting them know that I fall into the category, and they are likely to at least consider my words.

Example 2: A fan says “Fitz has anger issues.” I respond with, “So fans who have anger issues have spoken out before saying that he doesn’t. His anger is a normal reaction to the situations he is put in. Saying that he does makes things more difficult for them because it downplays their struggles. (Anger issues involve an improper working of the brain, which Fitz has not been seen to have.) Further, that statement makes it seem like anger is an unhealthy reaction in general, which it isn’t, and which the idea of harms people whose reaction to negative situations isn’t “I’m sad.” Actually, anger for people without anger issues is known to be a secondary emotion, meaning it only erupts when someone has other underlying emotions about something. I think that really says a lot about Fitz and the layers of his character. Would you be willing to edit “anger issues” out of your message?” Now, that’s a bit long, but I’m trying to be conversational and not blame them here—notice how I didn’t use “you” except in my final question.

I hope this is helpful!