#something about the way dean says this ..
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this is a controversial take but i don’t really think sexual wincest dynamic would be the same as the dynamics they have with girls. mostly because this interpretation tends to ignore canonical nuances that define sam and dean’s relationship, which includes dean’s extreme possessiveness, sam’s willing submissiveness with dean (especially when it comes to physical touch), the fact that dean is the only one with whom sam is able to be physically vulnerable in a way he can’t with anybody else, the fact that dean genuinely loves taking care of his little brother. it’s an essential part of their relationship, and it just makes sense for it to be part of their sexual dynamic too
#i’m not trying to say it’s definite canon bc we all have our own interpretations#but i do find it a bit weird that the fandom uses their scenes with girls as proof that dean is sub bottom or that sam is domtop#because samdean is way more complicated than sxual relationships they have with random girls like it’s not just about fucking#dean loves taking care of sam and he also needs to know that sam belongs to him at all times and sam loves being taken care of by dean#it’s something they need from each other and they don’t/can’t have that with anyone else#plus they’re canonically each other’s exceptions. dean might be subby with everyone except for his brother#and sam might be toppy with everyone except dean#also if you wanna compare ruby to dean then you gotta admit that sam let her softdom him <3#wincest#spn
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from day 1 i've said that paradigm is best served as a wip, and tomorrow that will REALLY be true. tomorrow's chapter will be about the point in the fic where shit really hits the fan. so if you've been wanting to read it in real time but also don't want to wait too long for updates... now's your chance! i really think (and hope and pray) that reading this in real time will be worth it ;)
link to fic || link to playlist
#destiel#destiel fic#apocalypse au#just a little plug since we're about 2/3 way through the fic#i think the payoff of seeing what happens and how dean and cas deal with it will be..... something#just saying
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i can't stop thinking about the first episode of season 6, when sam tries to convince dean to come with him, to come back to hunting. he says "it's just better with you around, that's all." it's an interesting line because sam is soulless, obviously. and even though he doesn't understand the details yet, he knows something's wrong with him.
"it's better with you around" he says, citing dean's compassion and care for others as the reason why. and how interesting is that? sam's working with plenty of other hunters who still have their souls—they're all more than capable of caring about the people they save. but sam needs dean specifically. he knows he's missing something, and he sees dean and recognizes that something in him. even cold and calculating and unrelentingly logical, sam recognizes that dean, alone, can "complete" him, give something back to him that he's supposed to have.
in episode 8 he tells dean he "needs his help." he doesn't elaborate; he never explains what he means by that. he has a whole family of hunters who'd be willing and able to help him, but still he needs dean. even without his soul, his hyperrational mind knows he needs him.
soulless sam isn't capable of caring about dean. but he doesn't need to care to know they need to be together, no matter what—to know dean is good for him, dean completes him, dean needs to be there for him.
it's like a sick reversal of season 1. sam drags dean back into this life because he can't keep going without him. because he needs him. because when you think about it logically, and sam has no other choice, there was never any other option for them.
#supernatural#wincest#i mean i'm absolutely looking at this through wincest-colored lenses but this isn't even a romantic observation#and i think that makes it so much worse#every time soulless sam gives an indication that he needs dean in his life even when he's incapable of caring about him. that's so fucked u#like what the fuck do you mean sam's dependence on dean isn't even irrational. that it's so normal to him that it's completely logical#to need him. that sam needs dean the way humans need air to breathe: an unalterable fact of nature and reality#'there are also things about it i remember that i... let's just say i think i should probably go back to being him'#What The Fuck Do You Mean By That Sammy#having a soul hurts but he should 'probably' go back to having one#he says in a conversation about how he knows he should care about dean but doesn't#like there's something inside him screaming for dean. and it's trapped and trying to claw its way out#he needs to care about dean no matter what the cost is. he needs to love him again#it's unnatural and wrong for him to exist without loving his brother. is that what you're saying. is that it#i just can't stop thinking about soulless sam. sorry. what's wrong with him seriously#besides not having a soul#.txt#sam#the winchester gospel#spn posting#6.01#6.08#spn6
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what is spn about if not humanising the monster (people who do objectively violent and wrongful Things) vs. villainising the humane (people who are labelled inherently wrong and sinful and therefore mistrusted and ostracised again and again . Regardless of what they do. they are not granted the grace of mistakes, or imperfections—they are held to a standard of ideality so strict it’s disturbingly cruel. Every thing they do Has to be about making up for what they are. The only way they r accepted is if they accept this rhetoric and use it to self-flagellate and overcompensate and beat themselves up again and again—)
#like of course sam was mad about benny . the unfairness and hypocrisy of dean’s actions are incredibly clear here#sam doesn’t understand why and how dean could trust a vampire when the same grace has never ever been extended to him BC of the rhetoric of#you are what you are are and not what you do#and you Believe that because your brother does . Except then he goes and does this and it doesn’t make any fucking sense . and you try to#understand but you’re just so angry . bc why wouldn’t you be?? why wouldn’t you be . the anger of course is misdirected because it’s not#actually benny he’s mad at but dean . He hasn’t even met benny and when he does#he accepts that dean was right but dean never accepts or admits to anything ever#and he never says what he means and he always assumes what sam means instead of considering/ trying to empathise w what he’sactually saying#and sam is right . He’s always right dean can only ever trust himself completely. there’s an axe over everyone else’s head ready to drop#when they do something he does not even slightly approve of#he’s always waiting for the other shoe to drop and it makes him into a mean bitter person#who hates everyone else because he hates himself but in a way that he’s convinced himself he’s doing more right than wrong so that makes up#for it#but he’s wrong. He’s wrong because intentions can never ever usurp actions and hurt#using powers that r Deemed inherently wrong to save people is Good actually . inherent badness/ sin doesn’t exist hope this helps !#sol.txt
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finally on s13 and jack is the best character in the whole world i love him so much i’ll protect him with my life. in other news i want to kill dean winchester
#also THEY FUCKING KILLED CROWLEY???????? WHAT#i’m not phased by anyone else cause i know they all come back#but. what the fuck#dean every two seconds to his brother who spent years thinking he was destined to be evil because of something about him he couldn’t change:#wow jack is literally evil and we should kill him. he’s LUCIFER’S KID.#sam who was lucifer’s vessel: 😐#Deans cognitive dissonance is literally astounding he just doesn’t think about that#and its completely understandable sam isn’t going to bring it up because like. every time he’s ever gone Hey dean maybe we like Shouldn’t#jump at killing people who might be evil :/ deans been like Sam what the fuck that’s so awful of you why would you even say that why are you#betraying me……….#or dean’d be like Yeah well you did like almost end the world by trusting that demon so🙄#or maybe he would actually listen! who knows! but sam doesn’t know either way#spn#supernatural#liveblogging spn#oliver talks
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ruthlessly deleting old 2021/2022 posts (not by me) from my dean studies tag like *click* un-incorporating that from my beliefs system! also the way SO many posts have me like ok uh-huh good aaand then say one completely wrong thing that loses me. it's so many posts.
#it's usually when they randomly drop some line of fanon. like saying dean has never admitted to being wrong in his life#or never expressed an emotion or been vulnerable or doesn't Talk About Feelings or is super duper RepressedTM#like i'm sorry. have you watched the show. oh and have you taken off the sammy POV goggles first?#bc this guy is always crying and being vulnerable and talking about his feelings. he is self-aware.#he may not always want to talk to sam abt things! but he sure does talk about things with other people#do i need to reblog the compilation posts AGAIN?#(also re: his sexualiy? AWARE. sorry i saw him flirt and be flustered by so many men. he knows how he feels.)#and then 'first time ever admitting to being wrong' this one came from a post abt dean's prayer in the trap#like i'm sorry but first of all. dean apologizes more than any other character on the show. there are hard numbers on this.#people have tracked this on spreadsheets. i think ilarual is one of them.#and often he is apologizing for things that aren't even his fault! but he still feels responsible for bc he's been made to feel that way#his whole life!!#other characters *cough samandcas *cough* apologizing Less doesn't mean they've Done less things wrong#it just means they're not owning up to it and brushing it under the rug. something both do frequently.#anyways. aside from apologies. dean also has no problem admitting he's wrong y'know when he's actually wrong#which is less often than you'd think bc he has pretty good instincts and intuition and often suspects things which turn out to be Right#but anyways. another thing abt the trap prayer is. i don't think cas Needed to be forgiven#i think dean was justified in feeling angry w cas over the circumstances leading to the Death of His Mother! totally normal grief response!#i think cas also understands dean to be someone who needs time to process and deal with his feelings (he says as much to jack)#however. despite me not think dean Needs to forgive cas. the thing is. with dean when it comes to cas the forgiveness is implicit#when he says /of course i forgive you/ and in the cut like /of course i wanted you to stay/ like. yes he was mad and dealing with grief#but also. yes cas was already forgiven even back then. he just needed Time to work through the feelings#anyways i think dean says he 'forgives' cas bc it's what CAS needed to hear to stop feeling guilty and dean gives him that closure#but i also think cas was already forgiven even in dean's anger. he wants him there always. i'd rather have you. we can fix this. etc etc#a lot of tags for a non-rebloggable post ajksdfs maybe i'll make these into a real post sometime#vic.txt#dean and feelings#so i can find this all again later
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first time i watched 'no exit' i was 100% in jo's corner like oh great it's sexist dean time . wheeee let's all watch her learn a lesson about hunting and he can be 'right' in a factual way but he'll be as obnoxious as possible about it the whole time . now i think what's happening here is that he has pretty much instantly samzoned her, as a college dropout from a hunting family who has a contentious relationship with her one surviving parent. EXCEPT that she's a five-foot-something twiggy barely-out-of-her-teens woman who has a crush on him and has never been on a serious hunt before, and he's dismissive/over-vigilant enough with the actual sam, a powerfully-built man with clairvoyant powers and over a decade of experience. bearing that in mind, his behavior towards jo is barely outside his normal realm of bossy and overbearing, and since he knows a little something about how sams will respond to direct orders, he still tells her mother she's not on the hunt with them so as to avoid the fallout until it's over. basically i think the whole dean thing, his most consistent characterization over the course of fifteen years, is his tendency to express even genuine protectiveness through the medium of 'bossy older sibling', and this makes him come off like the worst person on the planet. he frequently IS, but it's actually because of other things and has nothing to do with that habit in specific
#'you sound like my mother' 'oh that's a bad thing?' < dean thesis statement of the episode. yeah he sounds like that bc he is a mother jo#like. maybe because i was eighteen when i first watched it i was like he is being SO dismissive to her! she's grown! she's an adult!#but i'm nearly thirty now and alona tal is SO young in this episode . you could snap her like a twig#and she's like. i mean i have a twenty-one-year-old sister and the things i would and would not approve of her doing#based on my perception of her ability to not get hurt in the process. whoof#it's weird . not saying dean winchester can ever be valid but maybe for this one he's just correct in a rude way after all#and then he gets right into the other dean thesis: she has OPTIONS. why is she doing this when she could be doing literally#anything else. he never gets to the point where he considers he could just go do something else. that will never occur to him#but when it comes to sam-type people he assumes they should want the other options. and he is TERRIFIED of this with sam specifically#jo isnt his actual sister so she can and should explore the other options. but if sam does he thinks he'll never see him again#his evidence for this is that when sam went to college they didnt talk for four years. but he also never thinks#'we're better about communication now and if he went back to school we would definitely still talk'#because he assumes all things that have happened in the past will happen that way again. and he's in supernatural. so it's a fair assumptio#spn#q
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thinking about sam saying “you were the one who said don’t come back dad. you closed that door.” to john vs dean telling sam “if you walk out of that door, don’t you ever come back” i love it when they’re so unsubtle about samdean/samjohn parallels
#it’s interesting how dean’s john coding is off the charts every time sam tries to leave him or does something he can’t control#while sam is john-coded in a way that they both desire for revenge after the death of their loved-ones#also regarding samjohn…something something that part from john’s journal where he says how sam reminds him of mary….much to think about#wincest#samdean#sam winchester#dean winchester#john winchester
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I think Dean has had an Al Pacino era where he watched every movie that guy starred in he could get his hands on, which is the reason he saw Crusing. He has since blanked out what that one was about, funnily enough. Some detective thing? Al Pacino did a lot of those...
What do you think is Dean's favorite Al Pacino movie? I think it's Heat.
#I would say something about Dog Day Afternoon but thats specifically a movie that kind of does the depiction of the trans woman#in a really unpleasant way#so arguably Dean has blacked that one for different reasons#spn rewatch for your blacklist#I should actually watch Heat
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There's something interesting about how sam and dean's hell experiences are portrayed. Dean has just enough agency in hell to become the aggressor, while sam is only the victim and can only be the victim
#idk something about the way dean becomes a master torturer while sam becomes a master of being tortured#and this isnt to say dean deserved it or had it easy but there's just.. a Difference#idk i have thoughts about how this contributes to why i cant get my head around people viewing dean as the poor poor victim#and sam as the Horrible younger brother#and it's not the hell experiences themselves but how they're portrayed#there's a bit of a sense of 'sam deserved it sam asked for it'#while dean didnt#despite the fact that dean frankly did not need to make the deal#but sam /did/ need to be the one to beat the devil#and the way that dean post hell /becomes/ the aggressor#whereas sam post hell. doesnt do that#once again i just think its something interesting#and these are just half formed thoughts#and i dont like the interpretation that dean is weak for breaking in hell bc he's not#like this isnt to drag /dean/ but rather to highlight something in the difference of the writing#for each experience#lea speaks
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see what gets me about provenance is that sam is really scared of pursuing a relationship with sarah and other girls because he's afraid they're going to die. sam is cursed, the people he loves will die bloody, he doesn't want that, so he's staying away from people.
but this curse, textually, from sam's own mouth, can affect his family too:
so this isn't just limited to his romantic endeavors. anyone who's close to him, including his family, might die if they stick around him.
so what about dean??? he fits the criteria, but sam is still hanging onto him like a monkey on a vine. and what does this say about sam?
in some ways, i think there's a sense of hero-worship at play, like sam truly believes that dean can handle whatever comes his way and he'll be safe. there's a sense of protectiveness from sam throughout season 1, but dean carries himself in a way that is reassuring to sam. when he tells sam that he'll protect him, sam believes him without question, even if he's still worried. sam believes, or wants to believe, in dean's bravado.
which is interesting considering the episode faith, where sam very well could have blamed himself for dean getting hurt and almost dying (and maybe he did, and that was why he was so desperate to save him, no matter the cost—dean saw it as his time coming, but sam saw it as an unnatural death brought on by his curse, perhaps, and so he was willing to go to unnatural lengths to prevent it).
in other ways though, the context of the season makes me feel like above anything else the reason is that sam can't do this without dean, and he's willing to take the risk (and therefore handle the consequences himself, do whatever he has to do to keep dean safe from him). even in a story where sam has to choose between opposing forces that can't coexist—his revenge or dean, he can only pick one—dean is woven into every fiber of his quest for revenge. the revenge can't be pursued without dean, and dean is the opposition to sam's revenge, so sam never really had a choice to begin with: he was always going to pick dean.
i just love that even sam's greatest fears exempt dean—he wants dean there with him so badly that his no-relationships rule doesn't apply to him (and the same goes for dean, too, what a coincidence), and he accepts whatever risk there might be because he can't do this without him. dean is the exception, dean is sam's big brother, dean is the one person he can't lose even when he believes he's putting dean in danger just by driving around with him.
and dean doesn't even know any of this. he doesn't have a clue about the extent of sam's love or what sam is willing to risk to be with him, because sam never told him.
#liveblogging: supernatural#1.19#in some ways i want to say this isn't that deep and the evidence is somewhat conflicting so as to not lead to any particular conclusions#in other ways i want to say they wouldn't have confirmed sam blames himself for mary's death if it didn't mean something about dean#and in still other ways i want to say it IS that deep. even deeper actually and this REALLY means sam thinks dean is his girlfriend#so you know there are a lot of layers you can play with here#personally i'm partial to the girlfriend interpretation. but that's just me#spn1#.txt#every morning i wake up and write an essay about supernatural. this is a very dangerous habit to get into#spn posting
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About halfway through, I noticed that the whole arc of spn season 4 focuses on faith. This is the season in which angels and god are introduced in earnest, whereas before the topic of god was nodded to but didn’t factor into the plot in a critical way. Episode 1 Castiel has pulled Dean from actual hell. The questions of faith, doubt, free will, and god’s will are explored consequentially. We meet a fallen angel and learn that angels can’t feel or empathize or choose or doubt. We also explore what it means to have faith in humanity, either because of or in spite of god. And, most importantly, this is also the season in which the Winchester brothers lose their faith in each other.
Up through season 4 (at least) this really is the central theme and conflict of the show. By the end of s2, Sam had gained complete faith in Dean as his older brother, as his protector, essentially as his keeper. Dean’s faith in Sam is really better described as his complete and utter devotion to him. Their senses of self, purpose, destiny, and belonging depend on each other’s faith and devotion to each other. Sam rails against this throughout his life, but his seeking normalcy is really just seeking autonomy plus acceptance. It’s Dean’s acceptance that he needs. God and heaven and hell and humanity are contained between them.
When Dean sells his soul and goes to hell for Sam, he’s also (mostly unwillingly) abandoning Sam. He doesn’t realize that damning himself will in turn cause Sam’s downfall, that one can’t be right without the other. So when he comes back, he comes back to a brother he’s forsaken.
Dean’s devotion to Sam wavers in s4 when he fears that he’s not really Sam, just like Sam’s faith wavers when he starts to believe he doesn’t need Dean, that Dean is not capable of protecting him. He pulls away from his brother, his god. His fall from grace (drinking demon blood, starting the apocalypse) happens both because of his doubt and because of Dean’s failure to be present and love him unconditionally.
And there’s so much more going on but to me this is what makes their dynamic so compelling and also so batshit insane. Just to caveat, I have not watched season 5-15 at this point and I have no idea if this framework changes or holds up throughout the series. And I’m new here so idk if this has already been talked about quite a bit. I also don’t care because wincest is rotting my brain and if I don’t analyze this text it will eat me alive. I’m now rewatching the first 4 seasons that I blew through to get a better understanding of it because it feels like a good place to pause and go back. Anyway, tldr Dean’s religion is Sam and being the god/brother/home that Sam needs and Sam’s religion is belonging to Dean and being accepted and protected by him.
#wincest#sam and dean#something about these hoes makes me wanna write essays#I have so much more to say about this but I need to slow down or the post will go on forever#someone tell me how long I should expect to be obsessed with these two#like do you ever get to go back to the way things were or is this just life now#send help
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so sorry but it does throw me off when i see cas calling dean "baby"
#or babe. other pet names are eh but#i think he calls dean babe ONCE and dean is like excuse me what the fuck did you just say to me#it sounds wrong#and i think cas just does it bc he thinks that's how you're supposed to refer to the love of your life#i think he calls dean ''my love'' i think he says it in the same tone as ''you can't save everyone my friend''#i also think he says it in multiple languages#BUT also. just ''dean''#it's in the way he says it like nothing else could better express his love#DEAN calls cas babe though#not baby because that is the car and that's a hard boundary that cas set#dean you will not refer to me the same way you do your car#also at the beginning he was disgruntled. dean i am not an infant#but then it clicked that it wasn't another baby in a trenchcoat incident#dean also calls him lots of pet names that start off as jokes and stick :)#''good morning sunshine'' -> just sunshine as a pet name#angel as a joke that turns into something reverent and serious#honey when he's joking about being old men but maybe he WANTS to be an old man with cas#SWEETHEART. sweetheart is cute and cheesy and one of cas' favorites#also buddy (you are the love of my life) pal (please never leave me again) and man (you mean everything to me)
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they couldn't let cesar and jesse return bc they would've taken one look at dean and cas interacting and known they had it bad for each other
#and sam is just like. oblivious. bc i think that's funnier 😂#meanwhile dean and cas are pining away for each other like the beautiful dumbasses they are..#cesar says to cas all easy and patient and knowing: so how long have you been in love with dean?#and cas is surprised and scared and tries to deny it but overcompensates by saying he loves all of humanity#meanwhile jesse is talking to dean like: what do you mean you're not in love with him dude i have eyes. dean: ??!!#cas @ cesar: i love dean bc i love humanity i love them for all their faults and quirks and beauty.. *thinking about freckles + bowlegs*#dean @ jesse: you don't know what you're talkin bout man! jesse: oh so now you're going to get angry and defensive like that isn't#overcompensating and an obvious tell that i speak the truth. dean: yo-.. shutup!!#cas @ cesar: .. humanity really is quite remarkable and so worthy of love when you think about it. and affection. and praise..#dean @ jesse: --swayze always gets a pass!! jesse: oh so he's on your celebrity exception list? dean: yeh man of course he is.#jesse: mhm. even though he's a guy? dean: ... who HASN'T had gay thoughts!?!#cas @ cesar: humanity should really eat more vegetables and drink less alcohol and sleep more. but this life can be difficult#and habits are hard to change and i will be there to help in any way i can like making coffee just the way humanity secretly likes it..#dean: *frazzled and exhausted as jesse hands him a beer* --i prefer the classics: Say Anything. When Harry Met Sally. Princess Bride..#jesse: *nodding along as they chat about chick fliks* cas @ cesar: i help with humanity's laundry. i once found a pair of jeans#in humanity's room with the legs torn off. i thought something awful had happened during a hunt but humanity wouldn't be able to#regrow his legs without my angelic assistance.. unless humanity met another angel.. *white knuckles the chair in possessive jealousy*#dean: *getting teary as he talks about dory's story* sam: *walking in on cas cracking the chair + dean sobbing into his beer#but taking no notice bc his eyes are on the ipad in his hands* so get this--#destiel#crack#thoughts#😂😂😂😂😂
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thinking about how one of the last things john ever tells dean is an admittance that the way he treated him was fucked. & of course this destroys dean and makes it so much harder for him to come to terms w his death right after and with his childhood in general bc he’s spent his entire life chasing after johns approval. he’s spent his entire life telling himself that the way he was treated was okay and justified and that their childhood was good because he could handle it and he was strong enough and that was how it had to be. he’s worshipped john as a hero and seen nothing wrong with any of it. because he’s had to. his entire life is built around this idea there’s nothing else. he’s his dads perfect soldier and punching bag and wife-replacement and suddenly his dads gone & he said he’s sorry and that he shouldn’t have treated dean that way. what the hell is he supposed to do now.
#augh. i don’t know i haven’t seen enough of this show yet but.#thinking about that episode with the abused kid who has psychic powers like sams and sam sees himslef in the kid a lot#but is horrified by the extent of the abuse and keeps saying like. Dean i never thought i’d say this but you’re right dad was pretty good i#guess we were really lucky to have him. it could’ve turned out a very different way.#and deans just like. idk there’s something about his face. like he wants to agree cause this is what he’s always saying but he Cant.#because. well. sams thinking about this kid with circumstances so similar to him who ended up entirely victimised by his father and#thinking Wow i had something that kid didn’t. i had MY dad who was so much better after all (despite kicking me out of the house and#always refusing to support me but wtv)#but really the thing sam had was DEAN.#dean as sam’s protector and john’s golden child and the adult of the family. dean as the person#john winchester comes home to after a hunt the person who tells him it’s okay#dean playing the part of his dead mom and still shielding sammy from the worst of their father and as a result internalising that this was#fine.#what the hell is he going to do now that his fathers dead? after his fathers dead and wrong and theoretically morally weak and admitted hed#raised dean badly?#IDK!!! i’m sure excited to see him continue to break down though#(have just finished s2e2 for future me ref)#supernatural#<- Sorry guys i’m batshit obsessed.#father by the front bottoms dean song of all time#spn#oliver talks
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