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dykedvonte · 1 month ago

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You ever just see a Mouthwashing take that makes you want to bang your head into a wall? I literally just saw someone claim Curly couldn't have been emotionally abused by Jimmy before the crash because he was in a higher position of power than Jimmy.

-Shrimp Anon

The mouthwashing fandom has shown me that people genuinely do believe that certain types of abuse are not as detrimental as other types especially when they deem those immune/resistant, ergo, believing one is objectively worse no matter how it affects the person nor the intersections of power, history and dynamics at play.

Get ready cause this is a yap session:

Cause like it's heavily implied that Curly and Jimmy's friendship was toxic and abusive, pointedly in the direction of how Jimmy uses Curly's belief/comfort in him. Curly wasn't forced to enable Jimmy but he was emotional and mentally on edge around him in almost every scene in some way. Mental and emotional abuse are not contingent on what positions you have at work. Yeah, he's Jimmy's boss but he was Jimmy's friend first and it's like getting into Psych discussion to talk about how social power tends to overshadow any perceived organizational power in the human mind. People are concerned about their jobs ofc but they tend to hang onto and put more value/investment into their personal relationships, hence why there tends to be laws and restrictions around mixing the two.

I always see the sentiments that "Curly is a grown ass man", "Curly is bigger than Jimmy", "Curly is Jimmy's boss", "He just needed a backbone" as criticisms of Curly and while I do agree that on the surface level all of these to be true and viable ways Curly could've taken more control of the situation, I often look at the parallels of Anya and Curly as victims of Jimmy pre/post crash.

The way Jimmy talks to Anya post crash is how he talked to Curly in the pre-crash segments. It's hard to pin-point mainly because we know he hates and wants nothing to do with Anya compared to his contrary but similarly handled obsessions with Curly. It's a weird sort of "honey-moon" effect of abuse Jimmy does in terms of emotional and mental victimization. He is always horrid to Anya, always talking down or questioning her abilities and thoughts in a situation, this of course includes the harassment and assault. However, he has a moment of attempted gentleness/conditioning when he question her about the mouthwash when she's contemplating drinking it at the table. The key difference is he has no personal investment in Jimmy outside wanting nothing to do with him, meaning there is no sort of romanticized version of him that he can condition her off of. He knows this, hence, why he always reverts to trying to make her to scared to oppose him.

This sort of give and take of "kindness" doesn't work on her because she knows he is just doing it to take more from her than whatever he could possibly give but it reflects even the "softer" scenes between him and Curly where he always rewords or rephrases Curly's sentiments and concerns to sound more shallow. He is feigning a deeper understanding by reworking Curly's emotions into something bad and needing to be hidden. Everything is laced with envy and resentment, an outburst just around the corner, I mean he even slams the table in the birthday party scene, a tactic in emotional manipulation to set the victim on edge and cloud their ability to respond. Even if Curly knows Jimmy won't get physical in that moment, the physical actions is intended to make him back down in the confrontation in case it does. This is something that is just not person specific. It ingrains itself into how you interact with the world and life and it shows in major and minor ways with Curly.

Post-crash, the abusive nature is more in tandem to the physical victimization Anya went through and the stripping of voice and autonomy we see take place. Like the parasite in HFIM, Jimmy speaks for Curly most of the time and puts words in his mouth, similarly to how he takes Anya's plans as his own. He very commonly, with the both of them mind you, supplements the worst aspects of himself into them; pettiness, selfishness, lack of understanding... And tries to cover himself with their best qualities; kindness, planning, initiative, etc...

These parallel are just to say that positional power has little to do with if a person can be abused and how it can even be flipped to further the abuse. There is no doubt that Curly could've picked up on Jimmy's envy of his position hence another reason he never confronted him as a Captain but as a friend as doing so would immediately put Jimmy in a space to be confrontational/combative.

I think the disdain some people have when they talk about the heavily implied if not implicitly stated emotional/mental abuse Curly experienced being Jimmy's friend is when treating it as an excuse to why he didn't do more. I can understand that completely because it is not an excuse to why he didn't do more but is a very real reason people in his position in these scenarios can experience whether in the context of a work or social environment. However, I also think the way people talk about it really does demonstrate a bigger problem when talking about abuse when somehow who is/was abused is either part of the issue or enabled it.

Harkening back to the sentiments about Curly's inaction regarding Jimmy, I think the exact phrases I used/have seen show how there is an inherent belief that it is easier to overpower the effects of emotional/mental abuse that go in tandem with the perception of Curly as someone who should be able to. There is not an age you suddenly stop being susceptible to abuse nor a set point or low where you realize how it has affected you. You don't suddenly know to stand up or put a face on to face your abuser nor admit that you inadvertently enabled them to subjugate someone else to the same treatment. Maybe it's my psych brain but their is this growing belief that direct action is somehow easy or always the best method with the game shows you instances where it is not always the case. In real life that rings true too. He should have done more, but it's not impossible to see why he struggled to find a way or didn't even if it makes us mad.

It's not easy to suddenly gain a "back-bone". You don't immediately want to resort to aggression, especially if it mirrors the type you were a victim to. You don't want to believe you allowed yourself to be treated this bad, let it get that bad or allowed something bad to happen to someone else. It is easy to be in denial, to retreat to your thoughts or make excuses to avoid the painful truth. It's frustrating but in a way we know is relatable. It why we both hate and love Curly for it. We know we'd be better, we think we'd be better, we like to think we wouldn't falter in the same ways but it's always easier to say that from the outside looking in. It's easy to see what he was doing wrong because we are seeing it, not him, but the game really does make you picture what you would do if this was your raw reality and it's why this debate about Curly seems so never ending/contradictory. We can all say what we'd do but bottom line is that's much different when you're in the moment with all the emotions and human feelings attached.

I personally think Mouthwashing tackles the themes of rape culture, enabling, toxic masculinity, types of abuse and patriarchy in ways that are meant to deconstruct the typical straightforward views we mostly have of these concepts and how little subtilities of them are just as, if not more, detrimental than the overt/obvious parts. The game deals with the idea of little details and bigger picture in a way to show that sometimes the bigger picture is not the issue but the little details that make it up. It's why I have a personal dislike of depictions of Jimmy as the typical horrible person who would of course do something like this because the game is about noticing the little warning signs, the foreshadowing and foresight.

It's why I dislike the typical discussion of "bro code" and "boys will be boys" for the game because the game makes a point to avoid the standard depictions of such. It is about the type of men who still enable despite not condoning, agreeing or even perpetuating harmful beliefs because they can't see the little details or the ways it seeps into their everyday. The severity is not obvious to them as it was not obvious to Curly, Swansea or even Daisuke the way it was to a woman like Anya. There are little details about Jimmy that should ring alarms but if you are too naive like Daisuke, too distant like Swansea or too conditioned like Curly, they are just off markers.

There is 100% more constructive/concise ways to say "Curly was a victim of Jimmy's abuse on an emotional and mental aspect that clouded his judgements and perceptions in the scenario" while also critiquing on the side of "Curly still had a responsibility to protect Anya as a crew mate and Captain that he failed to do due to biases and stigma's he failed to surpass" without the weird condemnation people give him about should've knowing better than to let himself be manipulated by a person he considered a close, if not family/best-friend and had his own reasons to trust initially. Also stop being weird about victims of abuse in general with this fandom, like sorry not everyone has a like social epiphany the moment someone's nasty to them. People are treating it like you immediately know when you are in a toxic relationship immediately or comprehend when a person is actively dangerous and either it's your fault for not knowing how to leave/cut them off or you deserve it. Like the hypocrisy of people believing how certain fans treat the story reflect their irl views but not their own is crazy.

End statement is: I honestly don't even know man, I've been writing this too long and just like no man on that ship was perfect or really helped Anya when it mattered and I feel like pitting them against each other in discussion on who did the least or most or how it was justified sucks cause in the end Anya always did the most and best thing for herself.

#i also think it is because mouthwashing is first and foremost a game about rape culture and the patriarchy especially in work spaces #regarding women and centering conversation around Curly a man rubs people wrong because it does overshadow that commentary #but it still mixes other topics into its initial theming and message on how abuse conditions you to accept certain things that are harmful #and how getting used to a culture/enviornment does not mean you are happy healthy or most importantly safe in it. I personally like to #explore those aspects where it mixes all the themes so we can discuss the ways you have to watch out for things because there is a differen #in the idea Curly enabled Jimmy just because they were bros and because he was an example of another man afraid to step out from what #is a still oppressive system that does try to punish those who act against it even if they fall in the category of those who would benefit #from it as Jimmy and PE 100% represent that sort of misogynistic system where men that would be “good” are altered until they follow line #in a way both on the personal and professional level as PE is the corporate lock out and Jimmy represents the social and its just the issue #that the discussion of it sounds like “in defense of men” when I am more so trying to discuss how it is much deeper than men being scared t #upset other men but complacency is rewarded by not becoming another person subjugated hence as all the moments Curly does try to do #something we can tie it back to how Jimmy reacts and a possible penality from PE where we now need to address the ways to combat those #two concepts so we dont get cases like Curly or Daisuke or Swansea where male avoidance of the issue is considered neutral or even good.#i think most of this boils down the perfect victim mentality to where if someone who underwent or is being abused is not a perfect example #or accpetible type than their abuse can not be considered a valid or substantial reason for effects on their behavior compounded with the #fact that Anya's abuse at the hands of Jimmy is a systematic issue that Curly is a part of even if unwillingly and was more physically #violating and topical cause sometimes i have to remind myself that all media is still critiqued through the lens of the culture it came out #in cause i do think about what if this game came out inlike 2014 like the conversations would be sooooooo different could you imagine it?#but back the before statement Curly isn't perfect but I feel like boiling it down if hes a good person or man is not the point of the game #but more so good people can still be part of the problem and the idea of condemning a person for one act creates a false sense of #rightouesness and justice that does not aid the victim and in fact aids the abusers in escaping blame for their mulitple behaviors as we se #how the men on the ship tend to blame Jimmy for just one act against them including himself while there is a plethora of things Anya is #concerned about with Jimmy #and its not that Curly just made one mistake with Jimmy but more so we consider his actions more damning because he didn't stop Jimmy #instead of focusing on the fact Jimmy did what he did regardless of Curly and the consequence because we already know he's bad n maladjuste #which is problem in the conversation where the individuals are blamed but the system and perputrator are overlooked in a sense of acceptiab #complacency as we know how they are and the lack of tangibility to personally affect them on a larger scale like I should just make a post #on like cutting out the face when it comes it confronting systems of oppression rather than tag talking but just ask me to clarify if #you want that like im jus trying to say we avoid talking about Jimmy and PE so much cause it is obvious what they do wrong that we make #the initial and inherent problem out to be one aspect someone in this case Curly does and the the constraints they use to force actions

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batsplat · 3 months ago

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welcome back casey stoner !

https://www.tumblr.com/verdemint/761549873456775168/same-interview-they-asked-him-how-does-he-deal

(link)

asjddkh SEE this is what I'm talking about!! something about those incredibly neurotic ducati champions, eh. in the post linked above, pecco's talking about how he deals with media pressure... which, yeah, pecco and casey really do share a fair bit of competitive dna there - from the insistence that it doesn't affect them whatsoever to how they do in fact get extremely pissy whenever they feel misrepresented by the media. very sensitive to that kind of thing, those two are... but at the same time they're also both their own harshest critics. from casey's autobiography (all quickly nabbed from this post, which ofc expands on casey's perfectionism):

I got a lot of criticism over the years for being honest because I always felt I could do better. Even if I won the race, if I had made mistakes it was important for me to admit them and address them for next time instead of congratulating myself for being the best on that particular day.

and:

Whatever challenges I take on now I am still driven by the same quest to improve - I can’t change who I am. As a personality trait this is both a good thing and a bad thing. I like that part of me but it would be nice to not be like that sometimes, to enjoy something without being obsessed with getting better at it. I am sure you can go through life a lot happier if you don’t analyse everything.

versus pecco:

The strength that I've proved in various situations comes from the fact that I am extremely critical of myself, and so it only takes a little bit for me to put myself down even more.

like yeah I suppose that's one way of looking at it - nobody else can get to you if you're already tearing into yourself. it's a motivational process that's very much built on negativity, right, on the need to live up to their own exacting standards. both pride themselves for their ability to put failures behind them quickly - to be able to immediately bounce back because they tell themselves they only care about doing better in the next race. plus, there's that interesting dynamic where both are like... pretty big on this idea they're not making excuses for themselves, committed to honestly assessing themselves and all that,, BUT also have reputations for being whiny to the press... because people for whatever reason end up thinking they're constantly blaming everything but themselves for their shortcomings. again, very prone to feeling misunderstood!! neither of them are necessarily terrible communicators - but there's a certain reluctance there (obviously more so from casey) to even play that game at all. mix in a learned wariness because they feel like they've been burned before.... that whole pecco episode last year where he said one reason for the increased injury rate is probably because the field is tighter now (which, yes! seems logical!) ,,, and then some unholy combination of clumsy phrasing, media framing and an ungenerous fan response ended up translating that to pecco saying he wanted satellite bikes to be slower again... gave me real casey vibes lol. casey had a fair few of those episodes himself - though at least the news cycle and social media fandom weren't quite as bad back then. in a lot of ways he'd struggle even more nowadays

also,, you do have to mention - they both end up defining themselves against valentino specifically when it comes to their public personas. casey might be the rival and pecco the mentee, but both of them have been clear that they do not desire to be the next valentino rossi. kinda what I said here, right

idk, obviously pecco had a heads-up a little earlier than casey did that sensibly communicating to the media WAS going to be a big part of the job. but there's still a wariness there, an unwillingness to be something they're not, knowing that they'd be miserable trying to match valentino's particular brand of flamboyance... it is key that it is a choice they're making. they just don't want that for themselves, never have. there's only ever so much outreach they're willing to do

also this

“Stoner and Bagnaia are two different riders, but they have the same mental attitude,” Tardozzi told AS. “I think Pecco is still growing. He already took a big leap by winning the championship, but the biggest jump in his head has been done this year, after the two falls in Argentina and Austin. “He is an intelligent boy and has spoken a lot with the team, and what happened has made him take another step to make him even more of a champion. Now he has the right mentality. Pecco will become one of the greats. Right now it is showing that he is growing, as I told you before."

'resilience' is I think a word I associate quite strongly with both of them. they take their fair share of punches, do tend to get called mentally fragile a lot - but in truth there's a steel there that serves them well. did talk a little bit about the similarities of their motivational processes here too:

and

and one other thing I've been thinking about is that this... y'know, use of spite, of self-criticism, of how annoyed they get at others' criticisms - for both of them, it is also paired with a determined refusal to countenance they could be mentally affected by anything. with casey in particular, it's a bit of an overcorrection in response to how often he was described as mentally weak; it's understandable you might get extremely sensitive about the whole thing, if you weren't already. a lot of it is also stubbornness... a bone-deep contrarianism that immediately makes them push back if somebody suggests they might struggle for any reason related to psychology. where this really jumps out is how they talk about their rivals. obviously, nobody is going to say that their opponent's mind games work on them because that'd be deeply stupid to admit - but there is something about pecco's firm insistence marc's mind games don't have a hope of working on him that is really reminiscent of how casey has talked about valentino. it's that dynamic of ,, well, they're not wrong in that they're stronger than people give them credit for, but obviously they are also. like. extremely defensive, past the point of necessarily being reasonable. sometimes, what your rival does will affect you. that's kinda how rivalries work lol. but both of them are very committed to this narrative that their working process is super self-directed. casey's whole thing about how he's never gotten obsessed with rivals, pecco's 'we work in silence' schtick... it comes back round to the relationship with the media, right, where they have a natural inclination towards framing that as an oppositional dynamic - and automatically chafe against any narratives that might be externally imposed on them. actually, you see, rivals don't affect their performance at all, they don't need to constantly slobber to the press to hype up their performances, they'll do their talking on-track... but the unspoken truth there is that all of those things do matter, they are paying a lot of attention - and in the end, 'proving a point' to someone becomes a central part of the motivational process. they hear all the criticisms, they seethe in 'silence' (often involves a fair bit of public complaining but let's allow it), and then they determinedly show how all their critics were fools and losers. rinse and repeat

anyway yeah apparently that's part of the ducati magic - a dash of neuroticism, a heavy dose of self-flagellation, inject a desire for authenticity that might at times read as whiny, stir in the makings of a persecution complex and top it off with a sprinkling of spite. probably not the easiest type of guy to handle, but clearly there's something to the formula. a compelling approach to be sure

#there was a time span where pecco was actively receiving advice from both casey and valentino. fascinating to me #odd co-parenting situation if u think about it. wonder if pecco ever told valentino what casey was telling him #canonically this IS actually also around the time in which valentino and casey were messaging each other #casey not the step dad but the dad who stepped up. in my heart his advice made all the differnece #//#brr brr #batsplat responds #current tag #heretic tag #my two cents is that motivating yourself like that is mostly fine #there's specific flavours that instinctively make me uncomfortable like this trend of athletes referencing social media hate inspiring them #but idk man some people are just geared towards negative-oriented motivation. u gotta do what u gotta do #maybe i just think that because i'm the exact same when competing lol

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