#slowly exploring how I want to go about drawing the batfam

[bloomeng]

batman and his merry band of robins

[scorchedhearth]

If you could fukky control and write about Jason as character what would you do?

oh thank you for indulging me :] i suffer from cant shut up disease so i had to put a cut there

ok so, first of all, i don't really follow what he's up to nowadays, i've read a couple of issues here and there but mostly it bores me so i dont have the fine details of continuity, no idea how to tie my hypothetical changes with what's currently going on

what i'd want to do is give him back the crime boss persona. not like he was in utrh, not entirely, but give him an attitude, set of values and principles that isn't the regular approach vigilantes have of investigating crimes and acting as aftermath. that's what's most interesting to me about red hood, that he takes proactive actions and has this 'control to prevent' attitude, there's a lot to be done with a 'good' guy doing something pretty much all of the heroes look down upon, things to explore and question and measure, and im not just talking about the 'to kill or not to kill' problem, but also 'is it ok to break in and beat people as a vigilante? where do you draw the line of what's admitted or not for a vigilante to do just because they've got good intentions even if legally it is a crime? you can leak drug deals information to the police but cannot do them yourself to manipulate the results as you want? what's moral, what's accepted as good and bad actions?' and all that jazz

first and foremost in the plot of this hypothetical run i'd be given, i'd have him give up the crowbars (fucking stupid choice imo), pick up guns again and stop running around doing patrol like every single other gotham vigilante do, there's spoiler to keep an eye on the narrow if he's worried about his home neighborhood. what i want for him is to do a lot of investigation and research and planning like he does pre-utrh, spending time making up complicated plans and then striking and unfolding it piece by piece with extreme meticulousness, showcasing his many skills (yes, fighting skills but also people skills like manipulation or reading people, making bombs, traps, poisons, using politics and all those things he learned)

i'd have him turn away from the batfam, at this point they've reached a status quo of as good relations as they'll get, by now jason has run dry his fantasy of good family attitudes and settled for what he'll get, stop trying to reach for their attention (admitting he's no longer 19 but in his 20s now). but, and that could be the new conflict, this new indifference could be a point of contention for bruce, who cannot use his desire for recognition as a way to weigh in jason's decisions. basically, emancipation from the daddy issues for my boy <3

for the story itself, im half temped to put black mask against, first because their interactions were amazing in utrh, and second because i think black mask having red hood sicced on himself twice is hilarious, man getting his office blown up by the same rogue vigilante twice, more news at 8. i would want something a lot more grounded, not magic or science fiction, just jason going up against gotham's mafia and slowly mowing them all down, getting his fingers into all the corrupted pies of gotham officials and pulling strings to his satisfaction. there would be lots of political plot points i think, jason growing bored of them to rely on his own methods, the slow gears of how crime actually works in real life

and! on a personal life note, have him bond with other people, not in his personal life because i still want him messed up and refusing genuine human relationships, but on a general human level. actually show why he's doing this, show the drug users getting compassion from the operation he's setting up, show him watching over the kids needing help, dismantling cover-up for abusers, etc. show that despite what he lets on, jason actually cares about other people and that's why he's doing this, to make gotham safe and protect victims and innocent people

the book ends with jason as this new gotham kingpin that even batman can't take down (and batman genuinely tries to, he just can't because jason is competent, he was trained right), thus putting a new status quo for following writers to stick to in the coming years, and maybe then we'd get stories that are deeper than just 'oh is killing good or bad? what does my dad want me to do because i don't have a personal moral anymore'

[bigskydreaming]

Something I don’t think I’ve ever seen explored but that could be a possibly interesting subversion of the common conception that Dick is Bruce’s favorite, even according to his other children:

What if the things they viewed as favoritism were really just overcompensation? For instance, when Dick and Bruce started being presences in each other’s lives again after Tim became Robin, it was a gradual thing, they only slowly kind of got used to being around each other again over time. As I’ve often said in the past, my big gripe about this, and why I so intensely dislike all of that being framed as Tim being a catalyst for reuniting them, is its precisely BECAUSE of how it all played out that way, that Bruce....never actually needed to apologize or make amends to Dick or even ASK for him to come back....which compounded the fact that he’d never really ever gotten around to doing all of that because of the conflict between them for other reasons before Jason’s death happened.

And I do think a lot of that has to do with Bruce’s tendencies towards self-flagellation, though this doesn’t excuse it. I honestly do believe that it’d be perfectly in character if the reason Bruce never apologized for all that even then was because he didn’t think what he’d done WAS forgivable, so it felt....false to him, to try and ask for forgiveness. What this fails to consider though, is that apologizing, making amends, TRYING to make up for what you did to the other person.....its not about WHETHER or not they forgive you, or think they can.

Its simply about acknowledging wrong and harm done, and saying....you’re sorry. You regret it. You know it was a mistake and that you can’t take it back, but you just want them to know you’re....not unaware of the harm you caused.

After that, yeah, the ball is in their court, but if you never actually put that out there, how are they ever supposed to truly KNOW that you know that? Believe that?

How can people ever be asked or expected to grant forgiveness when its so commonly depicted as though for the people who hurt them, even just ASKING for it is harder than it must be for the people who WERE hurt to GRANT it?

But Bruce is very much someone who believes that actions speak louder than words, so I could see someone taking the angle that he tries to EXPRESS his regret to Dick in other ways, through various actions and behaviors with or around him.....which could be construed to others in the family as displays of favoritism....

Because they’d have no way or any reason to think of them as attempts at amends or expressions of regret, like they would, say, if any of those similar behaviors were exhibited around Jason - whether they were accepted by Jason or brushed off. Point being, they would GET that this was what it was with Jason, because they’re all aware Jason is angry at Bruce for very specific things, with most of them being aware what MOST of those things are (definitely not counting the ending of UTRH). 

(And just pointing out here again for emphasis since its not like I tack it on as a qualifier in all my posts, but I honestly hate how frequently various parts of fandom decide one character or another is Bruce’s favorite or worse, that this is OKAY, like its not a fundamental problem if he definitively has a favorite. Of course that creates divides in a family. To me, ideally, a healthy Batfam has no favorites, they just have members of the family who are more favorite to them in SOME ways than in others. 

For instance, I also dislike the idea that Damian is Dick’s favorite, but I don’t think the closeness of their relationship is threatened or mitigated by acknowledging that the bonds between Dick and his other siblings are just as strong, just in different ways. That its ‘special’ with Damian in a way it isn’t with the others because of how close they got that year Dick practically raised him, that makes the nature of their relationship different. But its equally ‘special’ with Jason, because Jason was Dick’s FIRST brother, they were each other’s first family beyond just parental figures, there’s a significance to that which doesn’t just go away, and still neither of those undervalues the fact that Tim and Dick spent years being close as the only two brothers, who had only each other and Bruce, and Bruce sometimes being emotionally or even physically unavailable to turn to making it that much more necessary for them to turn to each other, essentially, between Jason’s death and return and even after Cass became a presence in their lives, due to her usually going to Babs for the kinds of things Dick and Tim would work through together, and then of course Cass is Dick’s only sister which puts her in another category altogether, not better or worse, its simply that Cass is neither Dick’s brother nor was she ever a Robin so they have a relationship that for example, whatever else it consists of, will never be defined or threatened by any of the issues that have plagued the family when it comes to the Robin succession. And Duke and Dick’s dynamic of course is still basically just whatever the hell you individually decide it to be because hahahaha what if you wrote them interacting for more than like, one issue only, DC HMMM?

Point being - FUCK family favorites. The whole idea is stupid and toxic and IMO fundamentally incompatible with an actual healthy, functional Batfamily, so it kinda blows my mind when I see people UPHOLDING the idea of this character being so and so’s favorite or everyone knows Dick is Bruce’s favorite and Jason is Alfred’s favorite and Damian is Dick’s favorite....no. Why. Stop that. They can all be special to each other in entirely different ways for entirely different reasons. Family is not a zero sum game. And none of this means that there aren’t some of them who just GET ALONG better than they do with the others at sometimes, or like these two just tend to have more fun with each other, or this is who this one usually goes to when this happens, etc. There’s nothing wrong with that, that’s good, it just means.....things are different between different members of the family. That doesn’t have to equal FAVORITES though. Favorite to share this particular activity with? Sure. OVERALL though? Miss me).

ANYWAY.

Detour aside and circling back to my point.....say for instance the other kids see Bruce appear to be making an effort with Jason, singling him out for praise or acknowledgment....its not hard for them to imagine reasons WHY Bruce might be doing that, which don’t automatically equate to an insecure conviction that Bruce just loves Jason more than them and he’s his favorite....because there are other explanations, other reasons why Bruce might feel a need to act differently with Jason than he does with the rest of them, things unique to their dynamic. Similarly, say for instance Bruce is written making a particular effort with Damian to acknowledge him - there’s lots more angles to spin it as than just favoritism, they had a very rocky start everyone in the family is aware of, so its more likely to just read as like....Bruce making more of an effort where its already understandable to everyone else that an effort is merited. 

And Bruce HAS admittedly at different times been written as very clearly making an effort and being a good father to his kids, like, the capacity has always been there of course. But there were ‘good times’ with Bruce and Jason, with Bruce and Dick, with Bruce and Tim, etc, etc. So when the effort being seen comes paired with an understandable or apparent GAP the others are aware of.....the effort is easily seen as nothing more than BRIDGING the already existant gap, rather than....advancing that one particular child AHEAD of the others.

So much of the conflict between Bruce and Dick during Jason’s time as Robin stemmed from the fact that.....there was a huge, existing gap between Bruce and Dick even BEFORE Bruce took Jason in....and there was no effort made by Bruce during that time to bridge that gap. And then Bruce took Jason in, adopted him, made him Robin....STILL while making no attempt to reach out to Dick, make amends, bridge the gap he was steadily INCREASING between both boys and their respective relationships with him....so y’know, its kinda hard NOT to see or at least understandably imagine favoritism from Dick’s POV there....

BUT, its also easy to imagine why from the other kids’ perspectives, Dick might be Bruce’s favorite or the one he’s closest with, and its not because he’s perfect or the original or anything like that, but rather just....time.

Quite simply, Dick is the one kid Bruce spent the most time with, before any of the others joined the family. He spent a good eight years growing up in the manor, Bruce’s only family other than Alfred. Its quite easy and understandable to imagine from the perspective of the ones who came later, this would translate into more closeness, more ease and familiarity, even more respect, more love......because that thing that they each have with Bruce to some degree, that makes them family, the time spent with him, the comfort or praise they’ve received from him, purely in an empirical sense, in terms of rough numbers if nothing else, Dick has had more of it. Bruce has given more of it. 

Of course they’re resentful or assume they can’t measure up, in light of that. How can the mere two or three years some of them have had as Bruce’s family compete with the eight Dick had and that’s even just before any of the others came along at all.

So they look at Bruce making an effort with Dick, the way he doesn’t always do with them, they see Bruce making a point to acknowledge Dick or praise him or express he’s putting his faith in him - all the things they’re all eager to hear - and the easiest and most obvious conclusion to draw when asking themselves “why is he like that with Dick, but not with me, or at least never as much”....is that its because of that essential element Dick and Bruce’s relationship has that none of the others do.....time.

The problem is, of course.....they don’t have the whole perspective, and they’re drawing conclusions without paying proper consideration to all the possible alternatives.

Because yes, Bruce and Dick’s relationship has had more time to encompass so many of the good moments and the positives between them......but the reverse is equally true. Its had that much more time to encompass the bad moments and the negatives in their relationship as well. And this is part of the narrative trap created when not focusing on or even just acknowledging the downs of Dick and Bruce’s relationship, specifically where the burden of responsibility is on Bruce.....because it sets up a quandary - “Bruce often behaves differently with Dick than he does with his other children” - but only allows certain interpretations to be read in as possible explanations for this. 

So the second you lock in the take that Bruce’s relationship with Dick has never really HAD any low moments because Dick wasn’t fired, they weren’t estranged for years (though cough cough, what’s your explanation for Bruce’s absence from major defining stories of Dick’s at the time where he really could have used some comfort or support from Bruce, like the Church of Blood or Titans Hunt BUT I DIGRESS), and NTT #55 certainly didn’t happen, then its like.....you’ve reduced the intricacies of their dynamic and past history down to only its fundamental positives, and as such are only really showcasing Bruce being more positive than not with Dick while layering in the impression that this is the way its always been.....

And not only are you giving cause to the other children looking at this dynamic and seeing only one possible explanation - whether or not its just because they’ve spent more time together, Dick is Bruce’s favorite and always will be - you’re also creating the inevitability that Dick pretty much MUST be written as equally positive towards Bruce at all times - aka appearing as the loyal footsoldier his siblings often accuse him of being, particularly when they’re having their own conflicts with Bruce and Dick is defending him - OR if you write Dick as behaving negatively towards Bruce or making complaints of his own against Bruce....who in the eyes of all the others, clearly already favors Dick more than them as is.....it makes Dick look like a spoiled, ungrateful asshole who can’t even appreciate the fact that Bruce already loves and respects him more than he does any of them, like nothing will ever be good enough for him.

Basically, as is a fairly common theme for me, lol, my point is that I think a lot of the more negative and two-dimensional portrayals of Dick in fandom come not even from writers innately or initially seeing HIM that way....but rather are just a symptom of the corners many often write themselves into simply by REFUSING to write other characters in certain negative ways....without paying consideration to the ripple effects this would have on the dynamic between both characters overall. And then more readers and fans internalize these negative and two-dimensional portrayals of Dick and add them or have them feed into their own predispositions towards any of the other characters aside from him, and it kinda creates and perpetuates this whole self-sustaining cycle, where Dick so often becomes the ‘bad guy’ in family conflicts purely because writers won’t LET anyone ELSE ever be even just more responsible for a conflict with him.

But the second you put back even just ONE of the elements often cut out from Bruce and Dick’s relationship in support of Bruce, whether its firing Dick, not trying to make amends with him the whole time Jason lived with Bruce, the scene between them after Jason’s death......

Suddenly, you’ve got another explanation for why Bruce might be making MORE of an effort with Dick at times, to show he appreciates him, loves him, is proud of him.....because Bruce fucked up, and he doesn’t know how to fix it. And this is his awkward way of trying to show and not tell, because he doesn’t think the telling is ever going to be good enough, and its not even that Dick’s too petty or spiteful to ever accept Bruce’s apology, its that because its never taken the form of an ACTUAL apology, an ACTUAL acknowledgment of wrongdoing and an attempt to make amends.....its more likely Dick not seeing it for what it is on Bruce’s part is just Dick not wanting to set himself up for more disappointment, figuring he might be reading more into it than is actually there just because he WANTS to believe its an apology of some sort, he WANTS to forgive Bruce and get back at least some of what they lost over the years.

And meanwhile, from all the other kids’ perspectives, they see Bruce clearly making SOME kind of an effort with Dick that he doesn’t always make with them, and that when he does, usually its paired with something in their mind that makes it read as “oh that’s why he’s behaving this way” rather than “oh, clearly, this is proof I am The Favored One,”...BUT having access to only parts of the picture and no clue about a lot of the rest, working off of limited evidence, there’s no real way for them TO draw the correct conclusion....that this is Bruce trying to make RIGHT something that went WRONG.....not Bruce just lavishing Dick with praise and respect and recognition any of them would kill for and he seems to get for no reason....other than the obvious one....Dick’s the first, the original, the one who has a decade headstart on all of us in Bruce’s eyes and who we thus will never be able to catch up to so why try, hey, we should totally just, stab Caesar.

[afni-fics]

Elder Scrolls DC - A Reluctant Dragonborn - Chapter 14: Not of This World (Part 1)

Elder Scrolls DC - A Reluctant Dragonborn - Chapter 14: Not of This World (Part 1) by C_R_Scott Chapters: 14/? Fandom: Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, Red Robin (Comics), DCU (Comics) Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence Characters: Tim Drake, Lucien Flavius Additional Tags: Crossover, Crossovers & Fandom Fusions, Skyrim/DCU crossover, Reluctant Dovahkiin | Dragonborn, Not Beta Read, Alternate Universe - Skyrim Fusion, Modded Skyrim, Skyrim Spoilers, Tim Drake is Dragonborn | Dovahkiin, Batfamily-centric (DCU), Tim Drake-centric

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Summary:

After completing their exploration of Bleak Falls Barrow, Tim and Lucien rest for the night. While resting, the pair finally begin to speak with one another.

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Several hours after completing their excursion into Bleak Falls Barrow, Lucien Flavius was sitting by a crackling fire within an abandoned stone shelter that he and Timothy had found tucked away at the base of the mountain the Barrow rested atop of. It was a fortunate thing they had found the shelter as, when they emerged from the ruins, the sun had mostly dipped below the horizon and the skies were threatening to release a downpour. There wasn't enough time to return to Riverwood before the coming storm, and while Timothy had the sense to carry camping supplies to set up a tent for the night, it was questionable if they'd be able to get it set up before the rain really started coming down. Spotting the stone shelter was stroke of luck and allowed the pair of them just enough time to gather enough wood to start a campfire so they could keep warm through the night. 

Lucien had most of the contents of his backpack spread out before him as he was completing a catalog in his journal of all the artifacts he had been able to collect. Though it was fairly late in the evening, he was no stranger to late night research, and he really wanted to take stock of all he had learned over the course of this adventurous day while everything was still fresh on his mind. 

But then, the scholar paused as his eyes flitted over to where Timothy laid fast asleep on his bedroll beneath his fur cloak for a blanket. "Timothy Drake-Wayne," Lucien said to himself as he studied Tim's face in the fire light. He watched the younger man as he slept and thought about everything that had spoken about earlier that evening. 

***

The fire had finally roared to full life with a careful application of a well aimed fire spell, and while Lucien was grateful for its warmth and light, he could tell Timothy seemed uneasy with it. His gaze seemed haunted as he stared at the flames eagerly consuming the logs of woods. Lucien was confused for a moment, but then he remembered the young man's awful wounds.

"He was burned by the same dragon that destroyed Helgen," Lucien mused silently as he watched Tim shake himself out of his thoughts and began to  pull out some dried meat and fruit. "What must it have been like to be in that place while that creature was burning it to the ground around him? Why was he even in Helgen in the first place? He's clearly not a Nord... Still don't know where he's from."

Tim was in the process of offering Lucien some of his food to share when the young man paused and gave him an odd look.

"Hm?" Lucien asked.

"You're doing it again."

"Doing what again?"

Tim frowned. "Looking at me like I'm a puzzle you're trying to solve."

Lucien gave him a small guilty smile. "I suppose I am." He reached into is own bag and pulled out a few items of food as well, some bread and cheese, and offered a portion to Tim as well.

Tim sighed as he took just a piece of bread and just stared at it for a long moment. 

"Timothy," Lucien started. "In the Barrow I promised you I would listen to your story with an open mind, and I know you said you would tell me after getting out of that place. However, if you're not ready to speak of it yet, I understand." He tried to give the young man a reassuring expression. "I'm going to theorize surviving Helgen was quite an ordeal, especially with the injuries you suffered. If you need more time to process everything before you can share anything with me... Well... While I admit I am quite curious about you, I do know the value of being patient." Lucien smiled kindly. "And if it helps, perhaps you would like to know more about me first? After all, I'm a perfect stranger to you as well. It's only fair, right?"

That seemed to put Tim a little more at ease. A tension that had been in his expression relaxed and he released a breath that he had been holding with a small nod. "I'd like that."

***

So while they ate another small meal, Lucien told Timothy a little more about himself. He described where he was from in Cyrodiil and told him about both his mother and father. He explained how he came to Skyrim in the first place, at the invitation of an old family friend who'd started a museum up in the capitol city of Solitude, and about all the things he was looking forward to investigating and exploring Skyrim, from more Nordic ruins to Dwemer architecture as well as hunting down several rare historic artifacts that were rumored to be hidden region.

Tim listened to it all with great interest, though at points it was clear he seemed to not quite understand some of what was said, and that the lack of his own knowledge seemed to frustrate him. Finally, he seemed to reach some breaking point within himself. 

"Lucien... Do you have a map of the world?"

"The world?" Lucien was a little confused. He reached into his bag though. "I have a map of Tamriel." He pulled it out and spread it out on the floor of their shelter, using a few stones to hold the corners of the map to keep it from folding back in on itself. 

Tim leaned in and studied the map curiously. Lucien watched, intrigued, as the younger man reached out and traced parts of the map with his fingertips. There was something odd about his companion's expression as he looked at the map. Something about the way the man's blue eyes roamed the entire span of the document, as if searching for something he just couldn't find...

Then a flash of insight struck Lucien. 

"Timothy?" he started cautiously. "Does nothing on that map look familiar to you?"

Tim didn't answer immediately. His expression was guarded as he kept his eyes on the map, refusing to raise them to Lucien. Then he closed his eyes and slowly shook his head.

Despite the heat from the roaring campfire, Lucien felt an chill run through him. "Then... Where on Nirn do you come from, if not from Tamriel?" The scholar's mind was racing with possibilities. Tim was so fair-skinned the native homeland of the dark-skinned Redguards, Yokuda, was not a likely option. Atmora, once the northern homeland of the ancient Nords, was a frozen and barren wasteland now. Nothing and no one lived there in recent memory as far as Lucien could recall. Pyandonea seemed unlikely as they were home mostly to elves, not human beings. Perhaps he was from Akavir, though rumor says only serpent men live there now? 

All of Lucien's theories came to a screeching halt in his mind as Tim finally looked at him, a confused expression on his face. "Nirn? Is that another continent, or is that the name of the entire world?"

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Warning: This is being pantsed more than plotted, and this is not beta read. We'll see where this journey takes us. Mostly I'm just doing this for my own amusement.

Note1: If you have any questions about the playthrough and Tim's feelings/experiences that aren't described in the chapters, please ask me in the comments. I'll do my best to answer your questions as best I can.

Note2: Map source images: https://www.imperial-library.info/content/maps-tamriel

I included two maps. This first is one that I think would be like what Lucien would carry around on his travels. (I really wish I had the skill to draw my own maps). The second map is one showing the approximate locations of the other continents Lucien was musing on before Tim dropped his little bombshell.

As I write this part of Tim and Lucien's interactions, I'm starting to feel out how the world of Nirn might be connected to DCU Earth Tim comes from, at least in the back of my mind.

#elder scrolls dc#fanfiction#tim drake#skyrim fanfiction#batfam fanfic#red robin#batfam#crossover#lucien flavius#wip#afewnovelideas