#since I attempted the Undertale genocide route

[number-1-kuaidul-fanboy]

Making a vow right now: unless he redeems himself somehow in the coming days of the event, I refuse to ever play as Revolver.

[sariels-world-ella]

Can we see more characters from UTY if they were in Sw!Fallenswap? (I think you're Ceroba design and AU's lore is very cool btw)

Sure and thanks! I'll even expand on each of them, though none of it is 100% canon to Sw!Fallenswap, and thought up quickly as they aren't canon.

I couldn't settle on a Azimuth Dalv design but I did make a pacifist route Starlo design, he reminds me of a power ranger for some reason? (It's probably the mask.)

I had to do some math to get it to fit in the Timeline, get everyone's ages and get Martlet's life expectancy and to get Dalv's persumed age by finding the life expectancy of a Fox Anthropomorphic (there is an equation I use to find life expectancies of all the Anthropomorphic races) to see if it lines up in the timeline for Kanako's grandparents to be alive in 1013, as that is the most notable year in the timeline where Anthropomorphics did kill a bunch of Undeads matching Fallen!Dalv's description on why he has beef with the Ketsukanes (though Dalv never mentioned a year). The life expectancy number came out to be 950, then by adding Ceroba's age of 39 (assuming either Ceroba or Chujin's parent(s) had their child near the end of their lifespan) minusing it by 1985, got me 996 which did check out timeline wise.

Character notes:

Clover Notes: Clover doesn't change much from their UTY appearance, changes are they are much more verbal, Clover can save and load, doesn't have Flowey/Temmie because Temmie wasn't made animate until the 90s and they carry around a Polaroid Camera (which was very popular in the 80s), which there are certain spots that you can take a picture of giving you the Achievement "Picture Perfect" and doing them all gives you the achievement "Photographer's Eye"

Clover will become a Myling with the other souls and kill Ultra Temmie in Chara's non-canon neutral ending still. Clover is one of the 11 characters known to be from Gen X.

Unlike Genocide UTY Clover, Genocide Fallen!Clover does die still, due to Sans ripping Clover's heart out and eating it before Clover was able to shoot Toriel, meaning the Clover’s Genocide Route in Sw!Fallenswap could technically be canon if it wasn't directly stated Sans only killed Patience, Bravery, and Perseverance.

The fact Sans was able to sneak up on Clover implies he was expecting Clover to show up, even though Clover managed to enter the castle undetected, so it's likely Dalv conversed with Sans beforehand.

Since Temmie didn't exist yet when Clover was alive, you can wait for Asgore to drop a rope for you gaining the Achievement “Patience is Virtue”, which will cause you to skip the Martlet fight and proceed like normal Undertale except you have to sneak out of ruins which is difficult but worth it as you also skip most of Snowdin as well, because Papyrus saves you from Sans and teleports Clover away,  Papyrus gives you a medallion and tells Clover to show it to Dalv and say “Papyrus sent you” which can skip the Dalv fight (if you so wish) which will get you straight to the portion of attempting to travel to Hotland, the medallion can actually also be used to instantly spare MOST random encounter enemies which will give you the achievement “VIP”

If you don't wait for Asgore to drop the rope the playthrough plays similarly to UTY, but without Flowey or Temmie, if you do a genocide route Dalv won't shapeshift into a wolf and swim you down the river, instead The Boatman (Wingding Gaster) does, but Clover still ends up falling off the dam, but instead of Sans causing a wave from striking a bone wall into the water, Wingding purposely knocks you off the dam knowing what you did.

Either way, you wash up on a Dunes’ shore on 1 HP, which makes the medallion very useful to have if you waited for Asgore to return and got the medallion from Papyrus as it can instantly spare most enemies, so you won't get killed by them before you reach a save point.

Martlet Notes: She's a hermit that lived in the ruins before they were abandoned, she met Chujin before and due to her age she is old enough to have met the Integrity soul who fell down in 1936. She likes jigsaw and logic puzzles, as well as reading textbooks.

She's the only known character from the Cavalier Generation. Her personality seems to be a blend of her original personality and Dalv's

Dalv notes:

Dalv (or Sir Alucard by Ceroba and Officer Alucard by Starlo) His personality is similar to his original and Martlet's, the most notable difference between his personality and UTY!Dalv’s personality is that Fallen!Dalv has much more of a spine when it comes to advocating for himself and speaking his mind, he is much more willing to stand his ground and overall is much more brave, he is also much more willing to use profanity, albeit not in English, usually in Romanian or Monstarian when speaking to another Monster (adult monster that is, as he doesn't swear at children).

Judging by the fact he is stationed in Snowdin but doesn't wear the Snowdin Guard Armor, means he was either off duty when he ran into Clover or not apart of the Snowdin police force, but he is also not wearing a deltarune so being off duty is more likely.

He has beef with The Ketsukanes due to Kanako's Grandparents role in the 1013 Mass Undead Racial Cleansing, but doesn't have that same resentment towards Kanako as she tried to right the wrongs. Judging by the fact Dalv mentioned having parents and a younger sibling, it means Dalv is either a traditional variant (parents are the Elden Variant) as Elden Variants are naturally spawned, or Ancient variant if his parents were Ancestral Undead (once Elves)

Dalv is seen to shapeshift into a bat and a wolf before, bat when trying to escape with Clover and when they dropped over a waterfall and a wolf when swimming in the river with Clover on his back to try to get to Hotland.

As a Vampire, like all Undeads, he does have telekinesis and teleportation, so in his fight Blue Soul Mode is used for some attacks. Instead of Puzzles in Snowdin, he sets up riddles due to his love of storytelling.

It’s implied Dalv likely conversed with Sans before the Azimuth Dalv fight due to the fact Sans was able to ambush Clover before Clover could kill Toriel, which isn't unlikely as they are both on the royal guard and Dalv seems to be on a first name basis with Sans as Dalv said “Sans, you're a tâmpit!" instead of “Sir Gaster, you're a tâmpit!” (tâmpit which in this case means "asshole" in Romanian) when Sans causes Dalv and Clover to get washed over the dam, this is notable because Royal Guards only refer to each other by first name if A.) They don't have one (which Sans does, it's “Gaster”) or B.) They are on frequent speaking terms outside of the Royal Guard, this means Dalv and Sans must converse frequently outside of guard duty to know each other's first names.

Genocide phases:

Dalv is in his normal form, and his fight is a harder version of his pacifist/neutral fight

When Dalv gets low on HP he injects something (either DETERMINATION or SPITE) into himself, which turns him into Azimuth Dalv

Once killed Dalv's Shade spawns, like all Shades in Sw!Fallenswap, it has high attack and defense but only one HP, meaning you have to do all the shots perfectly with the wild revolver to actually kill him, any mistake won't be enough damage to get through the Shade's Defense.

He seems to inject himself with either DETERMINATION or SPITE at the end of Genocide, due to the fact in that scenario DETERMINATION will turn a monster into a Draugr and races in the Undead Monster Type will not have that reaction to DETERMINATION but neither would SPITE as it creates a Shade after dying and doesn't put them into a temporary state, so it's unknown what caused that reaction, but it's still likely SPITE instead which explains why Dalv was able to handle it so easily and not melt as SPITE destroys light mana in a Monster’s soul while DETERMINATION melts it, but since Undead Souls have Dark Mana instead, SPITE doesn't harm their soul. It also explains why phase 3 Dalv is a Shade. It is also more likely to be SPITE instead of DETERMINATION, as that would be easier to acquire, only way Dalv would get his hands on DETERMINATION is if he extracted it from Undyne, though he does know her, Undyne would likely try to stop Clover herself. The way Dalv could get his hands on SPITE would be extracting it from Sans or another Undead, though Dalv did call Sans an asshole and Sans did cause a massive wave which caused Dalv and Clover to get washed over the dam and fall into the Dunes area in a Pacifist and neutral run, Sans would likely be willing to extract SPITE from himself to give to Dalv, and not go and fight Clover instead like Undyne would, as he is more likely to stay at New Home to defend Toriel which Sans does successfully in Clover's genocide run as he does very graphically and violently kill Clover.

Starlo Notes: he seems to work with Ceroba in some way, despite not being in the royal guard, he is either a part of the boomer generation or Silent generation in the case Starlo is a year older than Ceroba. Like his original counterpart, he had a crush on Ceroba and knew her since childhood, though unlike his UTY!Counterpart as he doesn't have this North Star Persona, he is more open about his nerdy side and seems to be rather intelligent when figuring out how to defeat the robots in Steamworks. Since Starlo has no attachment to Kanako's robots, killing Axis or Guardener will not abort the pacifist route, he's just relieved you made it out okay.

His personality is similar to UTY, but his temperament seems much more like UTY!Ceroba, he injected Chujin with the serum made from the Kindness Soul, because Chujin tricked Starlo into injecting Kanako's concoction into Chujin thinking it as harmless leaving Starlo into believing he accidentally killed Chujin, but he never told Ceroba this. Starlo also only tries to kill Clover as a mercy-kill-last-resort type thing because if Clover makes it to Toriel, Toriel will burn Clover alive resulting in a painful death, if Clover isn't handed over to Toriel, Clover will die of heart failure due to vitamin D deficiency, and if Clover somehow manages to kill Toriel the underground will possibly go into anarchy, so Starlo attempts to kill Clover in Pacifist route realizing these 3 outcomes.

Ceroba notes: Ceroba (or Sherif Ketsukane by Dalv) is an abrasive personality, and unlike UTY!Starlo she is affiliated with the Royal Guard, as Sherif and Dune's Police Chief are the same occupation in the Dunes region of the Underground, and unlike UTY!Starlo but like UTY!Ceroba, she has an antagonistic role. Ceroba will lash out at Clover if you kill Starlo, but Dalv will call her out as a hypocrite, as she was willing to condone murder of other people's loved ones, causing a short  altercation between the two, which Dalv does end up over powering Ceroba pushing her off the edge, which she survives after being found by some other royal guards.

Kanako Notes: Kanako was an intern, to whomever J.A River's Successor and Undyne's predecessor was and got cryogenically frozen, due to Undyne being non observant and the true lab access keycard being lost, it's unlikely Kanako will ever be found.

Kanako got her internship at 14 years old by submitting her idea of Steamworks to be a backup power supply if the core ever breaks, the robots were made in collaboration with a younger Undyne who was also an intern between 16-18 years old at the time.

Kanako wanted to make amends with Dalv Alucard as her ancestors killed his family during a massacre and wishes to right that wrong, which makes Kanako the only Ketsukane that Dalv doesn't have beef with.

Chujin notes: Very little is known about Chujin other than he tricked Starlo into administering the serum and that Chujin was a stay-at-home parent, we also know he's not a boss monster like he was in UTY, as Boss Monster is a specific race of Monster and not category. We also know like Ceroba and  unlike Kanako, he is unwilling to try to make amends for his ancestors wrongdoings in the 1013 Mass Undead Racial Cleansing, as implied by what Kanako said to Dalv, further supported by Ceroba's predisposition of hating Dalv. We can assume he had a lot of faith in Kanako's abilities as he was willing to try her concoction on himself, which ended his life and due to Undyne not being the Royal Scientist yet, he wasn't used in Undyne's experiments and died in hospice.

[yall-hate-kids-tourney]

Round 5 (main finals): Chara Dreemurr (Undertale) vs. Amane Momose (MILGRAM)

Propaganda below the cut

Chara Dreemurr (?):

They were constantly blamed for killing all of monster kind in the no mercy route, despite players choosing to go that route. People ignored that they sacrificed themselves to attempt to free the monsters from the underground.

----

everyone wants to blame their own actions (genocide route) on chara, who is a literal child. i don’t know how to tell you this but you are the one playing the game. it’s about YOUR CHOICES. chara is there is punish you for that, you killed the only family that ever loved them! how could they not be upset at that! also if you don’t mind, here’s a good video essay on the subject 

Amane Momose (12):

Amane was voted guilty in the first trial so that she would acknowledge her guilt. It backfired, and now she’s considered a threat. Well, everyone is a threat, but nobody’s threat level has been as heavily discussed and debated as hers. Consider the next prisoner in line, Mikoto. He’s objectively more dangerous and cannot be restrained. He beat up the guard in trial 1, and he was able to hold his own when the other guilty prisoners were attacked. But a good incentive to forgive him is so that he will calm down. You know what? That’s a good incentive to forgive Amane too! But she *can* be restrained, so a good portion of the discussion went into how she should be voted guilty so she *will* be restrained and not a threat. Since her vote was a near 50/50, of course a good chunk of the voters expressed dissatisfaction with her forgiven verdict. Some are already planning to vote her guilty for trial 3, calling her a “lost cause”. She hasn’t even done any concrete harm yet. Hold the pitchforks until she actually causes harm, please? And what if she *was* voted guilty in trial 2? We’ve been warned that she will continue to deny our judgement. A second guilty verdict won’t make her better either, and then what? She’d be called a “lost cause” as well. There is no winning with her.

----

Where do I even start? So first of all she’s an cult child who was physically and mentally abused and tortured by her parents and then (presumably) murdered her mother after her mother killed a cat that she took care of.

Now everyone in Milgram is a murderer but when Amane came and her MV showed her murder and circumstance in an admittedly highly fictionalized depiction of it the audience decided to…repeat the cycle of abuse!

She was voted guilty for the main reason of “teaching her” and helping her “realize that she was abused.” I would like to note that this tough love approach is something her parents utilized against her. “We are only doing this to help you.”

So the audience replicates Amane’s abusers and repeats the cycle of abuse and that’s pretty shitty but it isn’t exactly “Fuck Em Kids” level.

And then Trial 2 happened. Cause Amane is bitter and angry and horrifically traumatized so she acts aggressive and hostile. Especially towards another prisoner.

Now, again, everyone here is a fucking murderer (of atleast could be constructed as one) These people being able to Harm is a core concept of this series.

Yet for some reason it feels like people treat Amane as a “delusional creepy kid who wants to kill people” which completly takes away the nuance of her character. She does have the capacity to harm! Everyone here does! She’s not Uniquly Dangerous! She just has a Reason to be Dangerous. A Reason we GAVE HER by REPEATING THE CYCLE OF ABUSE.

In short: In a series full of Murderers I’m honestly a bit pissed that the 12 year old abuse victim is the one who’s treated like the guy from American Pyscho.

----

TL;DR: "We metavoted this abused, indoctrinated child guilty in trial 1, but it didn't work. Now she is a threat to three grown adults: one who is fully free and two whom she has been shown to get along with. Please metavote her guilty again so she will be restrained and unable to attack them, even though that means subjecting her to further psychological torture." Amane Momose is the youngest of ten murderers, prisoners of Milgram who are to be judged innocent (forgiven) or guilty (unforgiven). In the first interrogation (voice drama), she said that what she did was in line with her religion's doctrines. If we judged her the "wrong way", she said she will just deny the verdict. Combining the voice drama and music video, you could piece together that she was raised in a cult and abused, even though she is cheerful and downplays her pain. She never shows *who* she killed, only *why* she did. After the first day of her vote, she was 81% innocent, but this wouldn't last the whole three months. Many people voted her guilty so she would "see her sins", part of the practice commonly known as "metavoting". Her innocent percentage rapidly decreased, and she hit guilty in the last 15 days, finishing at 51% guilty. At the end of the first trial, Jackalope (who is something like a host) went over all the prisoners' verdicts and commented on the general reasoning. When he got to Amane, he *laughed* at the audience for voting that way to make her realize her sins. Trial 2 rolled around, and it was revealed that Amane's victim was her abuser. On day one, she was at 74% innocent. Seems like a cut-and-dry case now, right? Well... in the intermission, two of the prisoners (Fuuta and Mahiru) were badly beaten up and became reliant on the care of Shidou, a doctor. Amane became hostile to Shidou because what he was doing was against her beliefs. She visited all three of them on their birthdays to convince them to change their ways. She seems to be especially close to Fuuta, who is now murmuring about salvation. Guilty prisoners are psychologically tortured, forced to listen to voices that reject their beliefs. Fuuta and Mahiru both say that the mental strain is worse than their physical injuries. But Amane, who also looks worse for wear, was thrown under the bus because she isn't injured and is considered a physical threat to them (never mind that she gets along with them). She's considered a threat to Shidou, a grown man who is twice her size and fully free, while she is partially restricted by the long sleeves in her trial 2 uniform. She might indoctrinate Fuuta even though, in a prison of ten people and one guard, she's the only voice of her cult. Fortunately, she got a break. Her vote was falling at a similar rate to the first trial. But this time, it stabilized at 51% innocent, 12 days before the end of her vote. But there's no way this is over.

[slightlytoastedbagel]

what if there was like. an undertale/isat crossover AU

I am going to take this as a "Frisk ends up in ISAT/Siffrin ends up in Undertale".

(ISAT spoilers up to Act 6 including the secret).

So, Frisk in ISAT. First of all, Frisk is a child so the party isn't going to let them fight. Not that Frisk really wants to fight anyway, they're happy taking snack duty with Bonnie. If Siffrin is still around I can definitely see Frisk as not knowing what is going on but wanting to comfort Siffrin anyway but in the way they pour water on Undyne at Hotland. Frisk has a candy in their pocket and every loop they give it to Siff on the third floor sort of thing. They do this even if they are also looping Frisk is just like that. Now, if Frisk is the one looping and Siffrin isn't there that would be... fun. Especially if Loop is still as they are in canon. They would be wondering what this Small Child came from and what their deal is. They weren't here before. Frisk doesn't know either they fell down a hole and ended up here. A fun little bonus would be Chara also coming along to narrate. Chara and Loop would be fun.

Now. Siffrin in Undertale. He is not having a good time. Let's just say they're aware of the resets and take them as loops for this. In the first few he remains neutral, they're used to fighting on the road but only fights when he can't get away per Toriel's request (let's say that maybe Siff is too used to his old combat rules... maybe they wouldn't think to spare Toriel at a certain point. At least the first time but then Papyrus spares HIM and that's when they realise. That could even be when reset 1 happens because Siffrin just can't go on knowing this). Then after countless attempts at this is when the genocide route comes into play. Genocide route Siffrin is Siffrin at his worse and the underground knows (so sort of like Act 5). Yes Siffrin struggles at Sans and they probably view the guy as similar to the King by the end as the guy he NEEDS to defeat because why else would it be this hard. Then Chara appears and the world is erased and he's back. At that point Siffrin is too tired and that's when it finally clicks that sparing everything is how the game is played down here. Idk, Siffrin is very stubborn when it comes to things, they're certain that when the adventure ends everything ends for example, they view fighting as a way to survival since they don't really remember anything else. Of course if he is going through this with Frisk it's definitely different because he has to look after a child they don't want them to see all that unless absolutely necessary. Also they keep getting upset whenever he even mentions fighting. Pacifist route probably happens first try in that case.

Oh also there's a lot to say about Siffrin and Flowey/Asriel. For Siffrin to go through all of that only to be met with a kid who basically echoes how he feels about their family (don't leave me I won't let you leave me). Yeah. Especially if this is an universe where ISAT still happens and then Siff goes to the underground. He gets it. Also Siffrin interacting with Chara would be great it would be like of Loop commentated on every single thing Siff did all of the time but instead of a star it's this ghost child that started following them when he fell down here.

[sbtorms]

Y'all know how Sunsetter is, like... my Underswap take of sorts? Well, I've recently been working on ideas for an Underfell take of sorts as well, with my own little twists.

Well, it's... kinda an Underfell take. Just a bit different in... a lot of ways.

I made up the name as I'm typing this, because I didn't have a name beforehand.

RED HAZE: Tale Of The Fallen

(or just "Red Haze")

This take has a lot of differences from the usual interpretation, including changing appearances... more than just details and clothing.

(Do note that the main cast would have different names from their Undertale counterparts. But since I can't think of any ideas for now, and also to prevent confusion, I'm just using the original names.)

Unlike in Undertale, there is no barrier keeping monsterkind from going to the surface. Hell, there isn't a mountain at all. Instead, monsterkind resides in a magically imbued forest, with only one way to leave, while entering gets one endlessly lost.

Asgore simply is biding his time, getting the souls of seven humans, to become godlike, and to wipe out humanity. No monster tries to go after Asgore, or even question his methods. Some act this way out of fear of what he could do, others that are for him and for his plan, and then the few that don't care either way.

The "routes" are named somewhat differently from what people usually call Undertale's

Path of Solace - ("Pacifist" Route) Path of Choices - ("Neutral" Routes) Path of Exploit - ("Genocide" Route)

“* You brush aside the agony.”

- this take's replacement for being "filled with determination"

AGONY is a haze that leaks from broken souls, with more of it depending how much negative energy one has when they die. It mentally and physically affects those who breathe it in. Naturally, it opposes the power of Determination, as that power does to it, destroying each other until one remains or there's nothing left. But, with enough focus, perhaps one could use both as one. Such a concept would be a focus of the Path of Exploit, specifically regarding both Undyne and Frisk.

Time for the cast!

Frisk and Chara

Admittedly, I didn't think much besides design-wise for these goobers. It's probably just that Frisk is more tired than usual and Chara was used as a sacrifice to the monsters in a failed attempt at a peace offering by humanity, actually got sick instead of it being planned, and yada-yada Asriel soul absorption and death. ...okay, maybe I thought a little for Chara. But not too much for Frisk.

The shirt patterns here are probably obviously Yumi Nikki inspired, despite the fact that I know nothing about the game itself besides some characters, lol.

The Dreemurrs (Toriel, Asgore, and Asriel)

Similar to canon Underfell, Toriel is what started this entire take concept to begin with. The idea stemmed from "what if the dreemurr family had biblically accurate angel imagery (eyes and wheels) instead of devil imagery (goats, fire, trident, y'know)?" And then I added "black sheep" into that, so that's what I ended up with.

Toriel is very fearful of humans, instead of a caretaker, running away and attacking when cornered. She uses what power she has to keep herself alone, not wanting to be emotionally tied and hurt again. (She's my favorite in the cast :3)

Asgore has been particularly affected by the AGONY of the many fallen children that died by his hand, becoming almost a tyrant, with only some of his original personality fading in and out.

Asriel is... actually not too different from canon Asriel, considering he died before everything really kicked off.

Flowey is a small mass/hivemind of bundled flowers, tied together like a "rat king". Each flower has only small snippets of past memories as Asriel, as well its own "personality", splitting Undertale Flowey’s personality into six pieces. They try to help Frisk get through the area, due to how unsafe it is. Whether they have their own goals remains to be seen.

The Blooks are shadow spirits instead of simple ghosts.

Napstablook is somewhat the same as in Undertale, other than the visual changes. Though, due to the circumstances, they’d have a bit more of an issue with their emotional state, bottling up their feelings, usually until such bursts when they can’t take it anymore.

Mettaton possesses many types of machinery, instead of just his singular body. In a way, this is due to the fact that he cannot decide on a single one.

The Ruins Dummy ghost is instead possessing a box and works as how items travel between boxes throughout the areas.

Maddie (aka "Mad Dummy" or "Mad Mew Mew" in Undertale, Maddie is sorta just a fandom nickname i think) basically acts like canon, but also a Mimic in a way, also possessing a box.

There would also be a secret boss fight against both Mettaton and Maddie, replacing Undertale's "Mad Mew Mew" one, with one where the two are trying to share the same body. The goal is to get the two to get along and work together… or just straight up destroy the body.

The Skelebros are instead lost spirits, seemingly of their original counterparts in some way...

Papyrus's goal is the same as his original, but instead in hopes of finally passing on, instead of joining a "Royal Guard". In reality, he knows he's never gonna pass on, but is in constant denial of such.

Sans, however, seems to have accepted and adapted to his “life”, and just wants to follow after his brother with whatever happens to him. He also likes dark humor, because of course he does.

The "Royal Guard" replacement is instead a cult that Undyne leads (and used to be led by Gerson), with a focus on a so-called prophecy, and using AGONY for what they see as a good thing. While they seem to be against King Asgore, it's more or less that they want him back to how he was before everything happened.

Undyne is a hooded guide throughout Waterfall (or whatever it'd be called in the take). She'd still be a fishlike monster, perhaps siren-like or anglerfish-like... or both. She protects the harmless from a gang of young monsters, led by Monster Kid.

Alphys is still the Royal Scientist, but also some form of background security in a way. She has an abundance of hidden cameras all throughout the Underground. She uses her vision across the areas for many reasons. Blackmail, catching traitors in the act, sometimes just... watching. Some monsters, especially many in the cult, have become evasive enough to miraculously avoid her gaze.

Her appearance is a bit more more based on that one beta design by Tuyoki.

[narukaminigga]

finished undertale yellow. the writing was really really not undertale and more like a pale imitation of it with weird less progressive ideas that undertale pushed. there’s like this misogynistic / orientalist japanese styled character or whatever named ceroba who kind of just doesn’t really fit into the wild western vibe that pervades the story and its kind of like whoever made this character really REALLY wanted to insert whatever weeb stuff in there. no i don’t think kimonos are cultural appropriation leave me alone.

flowey himself in this story is a fine companion because he is very involved in undertale’s story as a companion but he’s that kind of companion that acts as a dickweed edgelord who doesnt really see the value in the friendships whatsoever so he waits to steal all da power, so i think it was a strange choice for them to make flowey do the whole betrayal thing because the story relies on you understanding flowey is doing faux sympathies but even then in the og game flowey’s facade drops extremely quickly and just antagonizes you after u get hit / avoid the bullets. but then undertale yellow’s pacifist route suddenly has flowey never throw a temper tantrum—he just lets it go—and that’s it and i think its dumb because undertale yellow shouldnt even have a pacifist or genocide route. the genocide only happens if the player chooses to in the og game and undertale yellow just puts both routes in there. i personally think the neutral route is the only route, because you still end up in a rock and a hard place; asgore will get you and flowey’s temper tantrum asshole behavior is impossible to escape or whatever.

the big issue here with undertale yellow is that it just narratively does not fit in with the OG undertale. yeah i understand it’s thematic; the underground changes depending on the individual soul color. it is what it is, but none of these characters ever show up . theres no wild west world. theres like, nothing, and i felt sad leaving the game because well, this is a fanmade prequel attempting to depict events that dont need depicting. undertale doesn’t need you to speculate on how the others met their fates—they just didn’t have enough determination to make it through. they had flaws in their souls that made it impossible to reach victory, and the circumstances were not in their favor. but yours are, and that means frisk (you) gets out in a happy ending (or not). its why undertale yellows routes cant *work*; there is no incentive for doing either because they’re both wish fulfillment. the real routes the one where flowey gets hopped up on fent and starts tweaking cus u aren’t playing by his rules. the og game’s neutral route is a sense that it is not the end, because you just have to make a second attempt at befriending everyone, including the 13 yo flower nerd edgelord, who simply runs away from his problems. its why the game opens up more possibilities at friendship and its why undertale yellow emulating this doesn’t really make sense, since it has a beginning and end and sets up frisk landing.

i also am not a fan of most of the oc characters (martlet or whoever need to get smited) but thats just whiny me

hope that made some sense.

[funnycreatortimetravel]

So if you Homura in the role of Frisk in UT, how do you think she'd get along with most of the cast and what sort of ending do you think she'd get first time around?

That's a really interesting thought piece! Considering Homura's character, I really feel like she'd be attached to Toriel the most for obvious reasons.

Flowey would probably die the second he tries some shit, considering he's just a more cruel Incubators and Homura had no problem killing him. I also see her listening to Flowey with a huge grain of salt once she realizes killing him is pointless just to get a better understanding of determination powers and the world of Undertale, but largely, she'd view Flowey as a crueler version of Kyubey and would either kill him or threaten him into telling her what she wants to know. She wouldn't take any crap from him. I also feel like, in a weird, disconnected way, she finds herself almost understanding Flowey once she realizes the truth about him and his past.

Toriel is an honest, motherly person, just like Mami, but unlike Mami, Toriel is more of an adult, so it would allow Homura to have a parent in her life.

I also feel like she'd like Papyrus after realizing that he's not a threat. Like, once she realizes that Papyrus has neither bark nor bite, she'd treat him like an annoying albeit endearing brother.

In terms of Sans, I feel like she would never allow herself to be fully comfortable with him. I don't think Homura is big on humor, no matter the iteration, so his puns and pranks wouldn't be charming to him, only seen as mildly annoying. Then once she finds out he has unexplained powers + science knowledge? She would sure feel somewhat uneasy.

Alphys and Homura would be a mix of awkwardness and also feeling a sort of kinship as Homura used to be as timid and nervous as Alphys. Though she may also see her as a bit...much given her interests. I'd say Homura is fine with Alphys in small doses and would, at worse, find her too insecure to be incredibly close with.

Undyne and Homura would likely butt heads in the beginning given that Undyne is very fiery and impatient whereas Homura is mostly logical and will try to compromise. The main issue, of course, is that Undyne, unlike Kyoko who while acting like her, is way easier to convince, Undyne is very hard to compromise with once she has her heart set. I see Homura either killing or seriously injuring Undyne during her neutral boss battle once she realizes that Undyne only wants to kill her.

As for Mettaton and Muffet, she'd likely just find them conceited and annoying obstacles, and once they'd calm down after she beat them, she'd probably want to ignore them/avoid them.

Asgore, Homura would likely sense that he doesn't want to do this and would either try to compromise or kill him without any malice just to leave. Knowing Homura, she'd attempt to be logical and get Asgore to come to his senses. I see their fight going one of two ways, Homura either killing him and Asgore being fine with it, or Asgore coming to his senses once he realizes Homura is right.

Overall, I see Homura doing a neutral run her first time. She would probably kill Flowey the second he pulls his BS, but I don't see her ever killing Toriel on accident since she knows that Toriel only wants the best for her. She'd probably kill a few monsters in the Ruins out of self-defense purely, but for the more pathetic ones like the bugs and some of the less sentient frogs, she'd ignore/spare them.

She'd instantly be taken aback by Sans, not fully trusting him, but not being hostile either. She wouldn't avoid him, but she'd be firm around him because she doesn't know what he's fully capable of, jokes and pranks aside. I also doubt that she'd ever fight Sans since the only way to is via the genocide route, and I don't see Homura ever doing it even out of pure curiosity. She's not the type to enjoy killing, even out of just wanting to know additional information.

For Papyrus, I also don't see her killing or injuring him. She'd probably find his boss fight mildly annoying/a small obstacle, but once she realizes that he's mostly harmless and his battle is quite easy, she'd just defeat him and ignore him for the rest of the run without a second thought.

She might kill a few more monsters in Snowdin, particularly the more aggressive ones out of self defense, but she'd leave most of them alive and would just avoid them.

Once she gets to Waterfall, I see her learning to just ignore the smaller monsters from now on. She'd also find the Temmies annoying, but helpful in small doses.

Once she runs into Undyne, her first reaction would be to avoid her until it's impossible, then she would try to compromise and reason with her, and then once she realizes that it's impossible, she would injury her just enough to get her off her back without any regrets. Homura would view Undyne as someone who does what needs to be done, but too stubborn for her own good. She likely wouldn't like Undyne their first encounter.

Once she gets to Hotland, she'd ignore the guards and would only kill the really aggressive monsters found later.

For Muffet, she'd likely tell her that she never killed any spiders, and depending on if Muffet believed her, she could end the battle peacefully. However, if Muffet doesn't, I could see Homura attempting to calm her down and only doing a bit of damage until Muffet comes to realization herself.

I also think that she wouldn't have any qualms about injuring Mettaton considering he's only hurting her for views and not out of a noble pursuit like Undyne. She wouldn't even entertain his little game and would just go straight to trying to convince him that she isn't a threat, but once that proved futile, she'd trash his robot body and wouldn't feel bad afterward since she knew he was a ghost.

I think once Alphys reveals that it was her behind Mettaton's antics, Homura would initially be a little angry, but after some time, she'd forgive her or at least wouldn't be mad anymore once she hears that Alphys only wanted Homura to think she was cool and didn't intend for her to be hurt.

Like I said for Asgore, she'd understand why he did what he did, but she would still defend herself and Asgore would understand. She would end up killing him/having him killed by Flowey since she's doing the neutral route.

She'd find the Flowey boss fight jarring at first, but she would quickly learn there's a method to his madness and dispose of him.

She'd likely end up getting either the Undyne Queen ending or the Papyrus king ending, but once Sans calls her and Flowey tells her she could get a better ending, she'd likely do a Pacifist route and would befriend Asriel once she understands what he went through.

In terms of closeness, she'd likely remain the closest to Toriel and Asriel, and the furtherest from Undyne and Mettaton. Sans she'd be mostly neutral about and Papyrus she'd find mildly annoying but ultimately harmless.

However, during the Pacifist ending, she'd probably choose to go her own way rather than stay with Toriel.

[queen-of-scissors]

@bk-4-trash-fire gave me an idea, i was thinking about writing the cult of the lamb au but...

What about Undertale?

İf you dont know or didnt pay attention to it, the player is known as the "anomaly". So naturally they won't realise you as their creator (unless its a character who knows that their world is a game COUGHCOUGHgasterCOUGHCOUGH)

Now lets all take a second to realise that... Genocide route is a thing.

How would characters react if they saw the worse of you? And your powers?

----------------------------

Story under the cut!

GOD OF CREATİON AND DESTRUCTİON

Featuring: Venti (other characters coming soon)

----------------------

A celebration was happening on all across tevat.

For you.

You created them. Gave them life, loved them and even made them stronger than they could ever imagine, and all it took was to pray to you.

You could just leave it at there, you could just see Tevat as a game and nothing more, they would be happy with just being your puppet, yet you gave them more than that.

You visited them, just to meet them and love them personally. You could do that to any other world but you choose to stay with them.

They could do any celebration to you everyday, but this wasnt the reason for their happiness today.

You chose some of your acolytes for them to visit some of the other worlds you created.

The others were jealous. What did THEY do to deserve it that they didn't do?

But they were happy nontheless, they get to be closer to you by knowing your worlds. No one in other worlds didnt get a chance like THAT before!!

Not knowing that they simply asked. And you were like "sure why not?"

__________________

VENTİ THE BARD

He stared at you dreamily as you (attempted) to play an ensturment that you never played before.

Angel's share was loud as usual. That's spesificly because you were wearing a disguise, so no one would think they are disturbing their god and try to keep it down. Only Diluc, who is working today to keep an extra eye on you as the bard and you sat and drink the night away knew who you realy were.

The insturment was given to you by another bard, you seemed like a friendly face so they knew they could trust you with an insturment while they use the restroom. Even said "feel free to try playing it! Who knows maybe you will like it?"

Your brows were furrowed and your head was tilted to the side as you are trying to find the correct note for the song. Everytime you find one your eyes go wide, shining, then you try the next note.

His toughts were cut short as you raise your head, "i think i did it! İt took a while but i finaly did it!"

"Congratulations! İ knew you could! What is the song about?"

"There was this one... World... İ visited it as a relaxation. And the moment i heard of this soundtra- uhh song, i fell in love with it!"

"Ah, İ know the feeling of falling in love with a song! Didn't know you were romantic like that~" he teased.

"Haha, well there is alot that you don't know about me yet"

"İ want to know! Can you tell me more about it?'

"Hmm... How about... We go there together?"

"!!!" He almost fell from his chair, Diluc looked at you in disbelief "your highness, are you sure that you want to go with... Him?"

"H-hey now what does that supposed to mean!"

"İ simply think they might rather go with someone who is more respectful towards them and their world."

"Well jokes on you!" He got up from his chair and hold your hand "they choose me! That means im respectful enough!"

He turned back to Diluc, grinning "and maybe they preffer someone thats not emotionless all the time?"

And before Diluc or you can say anything, he drags you away from the Angel's share.

"Lets go now!"

"Where???"

"The world you were talking about silly! Where else?"

"Now? İ mean we could but, maybe we should let others know since-"

"But you are free today, and who knows when we will be able to spend time like this again?"

You tought about it for a second. He is right, you don't know when you will be free from your duties again, especially with him? This might be a fun opportunity to have fun!

But the world he was talking about was...

He slowly let go of your hand "uhh, but if you don't want to, thats fine! We can do something else!"

"İ was just thinking, its been a while since i visited that world, i never personally visited it either."

You crossed your arms "im not sure what i did in that world last time. So it might not be what you think."

"Thats fine! İ always wanted to travel anyway" he beamed. "Hehehe, imagine Morax's face when he asks where we were!" You also laugh. Maybe this will turn out fun!

---------------

Short, yellow flowers that grew on the bottom of the pit is the first think both of you saw as your visions slowly get used to the dark.

İt was quiet, the air was suprisingly clear for a cave under the ground. You saw Venti, who is trying to commit everything to his memory, he leans down to touch the flowers, they were soft, and smells like sweetflowers in Tevat.

"Shall we?" You said, pointing at the dark corridor.

He gets up and was on your side in an instant.

"Lets go!"

After both of you go through the gate you realise two things.

One, flowey was nowhere to be seen. And two,

"İts *cough* realy hard to breath in here!" Venti said "is it because we are underground?"

You stoped breathing for a moment as the realisation sinks in.

"Lets head back" you said, half panicking.

"What? Why? We just came here?"

You never tought about it. İf genshin was a real world, then so is undertale. And in this world you...

"İts empty, l-lets come back another time!

You imprisoned them in this hell and tortured them, over and over again. Just for your entertainment.

"Theres nothing to see here, would you like to go to anywhere else? Theres a world about music?"

"Woah, whats gotten into you? You seem upset, Are you ok?"

You started to panic, you killed those monsters. They didn't do anything but be nice to you and you killed them.

You learned that the games you downloaded were real when you got isekaid into genshin. You never tought about the other worlds and what you might caused to others.

What if he learned that? The god of freedom seeing what you had done to the monsters here, would he think of you as the monster?

Would he hate you?

"Hey, don't be upset! We can leave! We don't have to stay!"

"Y-yeah lets leave-"

Theres a sudden noise coming from across the Hall.

"Hey! What are you! Are you humans?!" You saw froggit with an armour, from asgore's castle.

"A talking frog?" He looked down.

"You are under arrest! As a member of the Royal guards, i won't let the underground go through another horrible dissaster!"

"Hey now, Don't you realise who are you talking with-"

But before he could say it, the fight menu is opened. Everything went black. And your souls have

You peaked at your LV, 90. Just as you feared it would be.

Venti brings his weapon out, waiting for your order. You mentioned him to put it away, and clicked on the MERCY menu. You intent to run away. You dont want to remember it, you don't want to kill anyone again.

Of course, being LV 90, you dont have the option to run away anymore. You desperatly pressed ACT instead, and chose the friendliest option that might get both of you out of here.

---------------------------------------------------------

You told FROGGİT "We don't want to fight. We are just kids that need help"

---------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------

FROGGİT didn't understand what you said but pitied you anyway.

---------------------------------------------------------

"Are those white bugs-"

"Get down!!"

You try to drag him away from the attacks, having memorised all of them, but it was harder in Real life and with an unexperianced person with you.

When you failed to dodge on of the attacks and it hit Venti in the arm. His pained voice makes you panic even more.

İt was even harder to concentrate this time, what will happen if you get caught? Will they bring you to...

Suddenly your toughts were stoped byba sudden pain on your side.

"Y/N!!!"

Once the attacks came to an end, he checked you for injuries, ignoring his, only to realise you aren't phisicaly hurt.

You check back to the game window.

---------------------------------------------------------

FROGGİT seems like it doesn't want to fight you anymore.

---------------------------------------------------------

You never clicked MERCY that fast in your entire gaming life in undertale.

Froggit looked at you, "you are right, even though a human did that to us, not all humans could be as bad as them!" He turned back and walked towards the ruins. "Come, i will guide you to a safe area."

...not all humans could be as bad as them...

"What was that about?! Are you ok??"

"İm fine Venti. Here, eat this."

"What is this?"

"Just candy"

"Dear, as much as i love candies and want to experiance the world, are you sure its the time..?"

"We don't need Medical attention in this world. Eating is enough."

"Are you sure?"

"İm sorry who created this world here?"

"Oh, hehe, right!"

You both eat in silence. Slowly getting used to the dust in the air made your skin crawl, as if you accept everything you have done. You want to leave, and delete this game for good. But that would mean killing them once again.

"İm sorry" he broke the silence "you didn't want to be here but i forced you to."

"İt's not your fault."

He smiled sadly "You don't have to lie to make me feel better, your highness."

"No, realy, its not your fault. İ...."

The silence grew once again. What could you even say? You know he also killed people but yours was diffrent, more horrifying. Even if he didn't hate you, his wiews of you would change forever.

"Also why didn't you let me kill it?" He asked.

"What?! Why would you?'

"İt attacked us! İt attacked YOU!"

"İ know but its just a frog"

"İt was a monster, not a normal frog!"

You looked at him "so thats how you can easily harm a hilichurl, because they are monsters?'

"...This is not our topic."

"... You are right." Why are you saying this? This is exactly what you did in this world "im sorry.."

"Are you realy ok?"

Well, there was no point in denying. "...no im not"

"Do you want to talk about it?"

"....."

You hear froggit hop through again "whats taking you so long? Lets go it isn't safe!"

"We will stay here." Venti said, still on his guard.

"Look, i know you guys are humans and never saw monsters and all, but we will be the least of your worries if you meet them."

"Who is that human anyway?"

You shiver.

"There has been another human that fell down here, not so long ago. İ didnt get to meet them but i Heard that they have a scary aura around them. Some monsters say that they smell like... Dust..."

"Dust?"

"Humans and monsters are diffrent, humans stay the same when they die but for monsters, we turn to dust."

"...is this why its... Hard to breath?"

"Yeah but thats not the scariest of them all! Wanna hear a story?"

"No we don't." You said harshly, but it didn't come out as intimidating as you hoped it would.

"Of course you do :D" froggit sais

"Everyone who fought them died exept for one person!"

Oh no you didn't beat sans yet...

"And they even said that human has SOOO much determination, that they get reborn when they die!"

"Gets reborn... After they die?"

İt was one of your powers.

İt won't take long untill he puts two and two together. You need to shut it up NOW.

your words didn't frighten froggit before, but your stare certainly has.

"Uhhhh anyway, you guys come with me when you are ready!" And with that froggit flees.

......

"...your Grace?"

"....."

"Was that human... Your vessel?"

".....They are."

"Oh. Thats why you..."

"Can we go now please?"

He can tell that you don't want to talk about it, especially now. So he just followed you, without a word.

______________

You are greeted by the sound of busy Mondstadt streets. İt was a beautifull day today. Perfect weather for a nice walk, but after THAT encounter, you couldn't bring yourself to even move from where you arrived.

"..such a nice weather! Would you like to join me for a walk?" Venti asked hesitantly. "İf... You want to talk about it, ill listen."

"....you know you don't owe me anything, just because i created this..."

"..game?" He added, smiling. "İ know. İm not doing it because i owe you."

"But after what you heard, why would you.."

"Lets go! We can talk about it when no one hears us."

"Where are we going?"

"İ too have my regrets you know. İts impossible to live a life without having those. So of all people, i know that this doesn't make you a bad person.

İ am reminded of my past mistakes everytime i go to windrise, so.. why not talk about it there?"

____________________________________________

HHHHHHH THE ENDİNG WAS ADORABLE HELP

yeah im deffinetly doing other characters. But ima start with my favorites

Also i have other stories that im working on and they're on the way!

Hope you like it

[darkmarxsoul]

Narrachara Theory is False: An Attempted Debunk of As Much Evidence As I Could

~CONTENTS~

Disclaimers

Genocide Route Narration Issues | My Narrator/Chara Interpretation

Systemic Issues with Narrachara

Responding to Weak Evidence for Narrachara: References to Chara | Similarities to Chara | In-Story Flashbacks

Responding to Strong Evidence for Narrachara: Snowdrake's Mom | Game Over Flashbacks | Flowey in True Pacifist Ending

Chara's Speech in the Genocide Ending

Conclusion

1) DISCLAIMERS

This post is only an attempt at debunking the popular "Narrachara Theory". It is not meant to make any statements on whether Chara is good or evil, or morally responsible for any aspects of the Genocide Route.

It's my intention to tackle this issue in a respectful, inoffensive, and kind way towards any Narrachara supporters. I believe you are wrong, and will say so, but want to be nice about it. Feel free to engage in the comments, but please also be considerate of my feelings. I have had a number of discussions about this that were not great, so I don't want to repeat those mistakes or to argue my stance poorly.

2) GENOCIDE ROUTE NARRATION ISSUES | MY NARRATOR/CHARA INTERPRETATION

It is common for Narrachara supporters to point to the Genocide Route as evidence of Chara being the narrator "overall", particularly instances where the narrator speaks in the first person and tells you they are Chara/whatever you named them. The issue with this is that there is an obvious  difference between the way the narrator sometimes speaks in the Genocide Route (in the first person and bluntly), and how they speak at all other times (in the second person and with some whimsy/dry humour). This contrast is intentional, to create a feeling of shock, suspense, or dread in the Genocide Route only. While people have tried to interpret this as evidence for Chara being the only narrator, I have my own interpretation:

I believe that Chara is in Frisk's soul as soon as Frisk falls into the Underground, but is asleep from the start of the game. In normal routes, Chara remains asleep and the narrator is a non-person/generic entity. In the Genocide Route, emptying the Ruins wakes up Chara. The narrator, after that point, is still the generic narrator, but Chara can "speak over" the narrator at points of their choosing. Meaning, the Genocide Route has two narrators: the generic narrator, and Chara.

Looking at the Genocide Route's narrator alone, my interpretation is possible, meaning Chara's lines in the Genocide narration cannot automatically support Narrachara. I will expand on why I think my interpretation is likely.

3) SYSTEMIC ISSUES WITH NARRACHARA

Narrachara Theory holds that Chara is the narrator for all of Undertale, in every route. Since Chara is an actual character in the game, this would mean that the narrator is:

a single, defined character,

with a concrete personality,

who has coherent emotions and psychological states,

who sees the world through a particular point of view (through "their own eyes"),

who knows what they know, and doesn't know what they don't know, and

who would undergo consistent character development in response to events they experience.

I believe the narrator is a generic non-person. This means, by contrast, the narrator would be:

not a defined character, but a "language-based tool" for the game to use to describe itself,

who has a flexible or arbitrary personality that is tailored to every individual context,

who has no emotions and psyche, and can act however it wants for greatest effect,

who can see everything in the game and portray it selectively,

who knows everything, and can feign ignorance if it suits it, and

will never undergo character development regardless of events in the game.

It's obviously a lot easier to be a generic narrator than a defined narrator, so in order to argue the narrator is defined, the narrator has to behave in a defined, non-random way. If the narrator does not behave like a consistent person, then they either aren't a consistent person or the author is a bad writer. As such, there are three major issues with Narrachara Theory:

i) The narrator's knowledge and POV is random.

Sometimes the narrator doesn't know things and has to learn them by player investigation (with the water sausages in Home); sometimes they don't know things and learn them through automatic investigation (Alphys's cameras, and the snow dodecahedron in Snowdin Forest); and sometimes they know information automatically with no investigation (that Alphys's box is a bed). Additionally, the narrator is able to literally read minds (it knows that Papyrus is thinking about your date, that Undyne thinks about her friends, that Woshua feels disgust at its wounds, etc.) without investigation or inference.

It isn't impossible that Chara, as the narrator, has special knowledge or powers. But if the narrator were supposed to be a single character, the most basic way to communicate this is to treat them like a person with a consistent knowledge set and point of view. Since this isn't the case, Chara being the narrator would require us to treat Chara's traits as very loose and ill-defined, which is not great for people who want to take Chara seriously as a character. It would also require us to assume Toby simply did not care about representing Chara with much effort to consistency of POV, which isn't a good view of Toby as a writer. A generic narrator lacks this problem.

ii) The narrator is actually pretty consistent between the normal and Genocide Routes, which implies they don't undergo character development.

A major idea behind Narrachara is the idea that Chara is a neutral or misguided kid at the start of the game, and you "corrupt" them through your killing to make them violent. As such, the instances of blunt, aggressive, or violent language from the narrator in Genocide would constitute negative character development—Chara becoming more evil.

However, something I didn't notice until I recently replayed Undertale like two weeks ago is, the narration between normal and Genocide routes is actually very consistent. A lot of it is exactly the same between routes, including a lot of the normal humour. One that stuck out to me was, the narration for Alphys's bed box is exactly the same, which strikes me as a particularly humorous or ironic line. The narration also describes you as "stopping to smell the flowers" when you interact with the cactus in Hotland, which is a deliberately lighthearted or silly line in the context.

If the narrator were intended to be a single character who becomes "corrupted" over the course of the route, I would expect EVERY line in the Genocide Route to be altered to be humorless, blunt, or sinister—bonus points if early lines seemed uncertain or noncommittal. This is not the case, however; only certain lines are altered to be that way, and it's done that way to create a feeling of dread through contrast with normal lines. As well, Chara is immediately committed to the Genocide Route as soon as they exhibit changes, with no sense of escalation.

If Narrachara were true, we would have to either accept that Chara does not fundamentally change between normal and Genocide routes and just chooses to act sinister on purpose for no reason (which is bad for people who want to argue Chara gets corrupted); or, that Chara's personality is just fundamentally random and inconsistent, which is bad for people who want to take them seriously or view Toby as a good writer.

The more likely option in this case is my "generic-narrator-that-Chara-talks-over" interpretation, which allows the normal narrator to remain unchanged between routes. It also makes the Genocide Route's tension more "earned", because it shows that there is a second, more malevolent force that is exerting control over a more approachable first narrator.

iii) The game as a whole treats Chara's possession as uniquely significant in the Genocide Route.

In the Genocide Route, Chara's possessing Frisk and being the narrator sometimes is obvious. They speak in first person, announce themselves to be Chara, claim ownership over things in New Home, express personal interests, and refuse to look at things they don't care about. This route is also the only route wherein anybody (Flowey and Chara) discusses the particulars of how Chara is able to possess Frisk, and is the only route wherein Chara physically manifests as their own individual. Chara is also able to overpower the player in this route, if we choose to not erase the world.

In normal routes, the narrator never breaks second person, and Chara doesn't get anywhere close to this level of focus or control. If Chara were meant to be the narrator for every route, I wouldn't anticipate the attention on Chara to be this skewed to only the Genocide Route. This is also bad for Narrachara believers, typically, because it implies Chara has a special level of "development" in Genocide that they don't get in True Pacifist. This makes Chara's development uneven and inconsistent between the routes, implying they may be naturally inclined to killing. Alternatively, it may imply that killing is a better route to power and independence than mercy, which is...a VERY strange moral for Undertale to imply, to say the least.

Overall, these are massive problems with Narrachara Theory. On their own, I feel they defeat the theory, and random incidental evidence cannot just be piled on to fix these problems. If Narrachara is supposed to be true, it's pretty poorly written. But I will address common evidence I see for Narrachara below.

4) RESPONDING TO WEAK EVIDENCE FOR NARRACHARA

"Weak" evidence is evidence that can either be easily clarified, or which doesn't on its own suggest Chara is the narrator.

Narrator References to Chara

The narrator makes several references to Chara throughout the story, including making a reference at Chara's bed, referencing two kids playing in a muddy flower garden or eating pie when joking with Woshua, and others. People argue that the narrator making references to Chara implies the narrator is Chara. If the above big issues didn't exist, I would agree, but they do, so …

A generic narrator is plenty able to make references to characters, including Chara. Doing this creates a sense of unity for the player, acts as references to the lore the player can appreciate, and ultimately makes the narrative experience richer and more interesting. Because a generic narrator can do whatever it wants to make the player's experience the best it can be, a generic narrator has tons of reason to make these references. They are cool. Additionally, since Frisk fell into a flower pile at the start of the game, and was gifted a pie, many of these examples are relevant for Frisk. Chara does not to be involved at all for these references to be made.

Ultimately, this type of evidence is weak. They'd be interesting details if the narrator seemed to be Chara, but as-is they seem to be funny nods to the lore and little else.

Narrator Similarities to Chara

Some have argued the narrator has similarities to Chara's personality or interests. In particular, the narrator (or Frisk) gives water sausages and cacti particular notice, and Chara is argued to be interested in botany due to their connection with golden flowers.

Aside from the fact that Chara is shown to only be interested in golden flowers, and not plants in general, this also has a problem of consistency. The narrator displays no interest in other plants, such as refusing to refer to Mettaton's ficuses as ficuses even after you learn what they are from an NPC. It also doesn't remark how novel it is that Alphys is turning some kind of plant into ice cream. If Chara were meant to concretely be into botany, I would expect more effort on one of Chara's only supposed character interests.

The narrator also displays interest in things like snow poffs and snowballs, literal garbage, and dogs and dog food, none of which Chara is associated with. It's much more likely that the narrator focuses on whatever it needs to in order to make jokes in-context, and any similarities you can draw to Chara are coincidences. Ultimately nothing that a generic narrator wouldn't do. Chara doesn't need to be involved for these references to be made.

In-Story Flashbacks

Specifically, the flashbacks to Asriel when Frisk falls into the dump, during the Asriel fight in True Pacifist, and the optional one in the bed in Home. These are (understandably) argued to be Chara's memories, and used as evidence that Chara and Frisk are always connected. This is a misunderstanding, though.

For the dump flashback, this occurs when Frisk falls onto a bed of golden flowers. Based on True Lab entries 8, 10, and 21, we can surmise that the flowers grew here after Alphys dumped the flowers and seeds from her failed experiments. Since the flashback occurred in a situation connected to Flowey, and therefore Asriel, we can surmise this flashback is of Asriel, not Chara. You could argue that this would be a vaguely-defined connection to Flowey, and it is, but it's not like this game doesn't have other instances where magic and game mechanics are treated very loosely.

Similarly, the flashback in the True Pacifist finale occurs after Frisk reaches out to Asriel's soul to "save" him, while Asriel is God and trying to erase Frisk's memories. We can even more safely read the memories as from Asriel, not Chara. I have heard interpretations that Frisk is trying to "save" Chara here, or that Chara is trying to help Frisk save Asriel, but no matter how much I think about this scene I can find literally nothing whatsoever to indicate such a thing. It seems like a baseless presumption from nothing and totally unnecessary.

Finally, you can also experience an optional flashback in Home when you sleep in the bed Toriel left for you. Given this is the only bed in the room, and it's also on the same side of the room as Asriel's bed in New Home, we can surmise this was Asriel's bed before Chara fell into the Underground and they moved to New Home. Since we know Flowey stayed with Toriel for a time before the game's events, we can even predict that he slept in his old bed and left traces of himself there. This is potentially the weakest response of the three in this section, but 1) I don't think it's insignificant that every flashback except for the Game Over ones (which I talk about below) has something to do with Asriel and not Chara, and 2) this single missable scene doesn't do very much to ground Narrachara.

5) RESPONDING TO STRONG EVIDENCE FOR NARRACHARA

"Strong" evidence is either evidence that requires more effort to clarify, or which has significant ambiguity that doesn't allow for easy in-universe analysis by either Narrachara supporters or myself.

Snowdrake's Mom

You can choose to Laugh or Heckle at Snowdrake's mom in the True Lab, which is a reference to being able to do both of these things at Snowdrake in Snowdin Forest. If you do either of these things, the narrator will describe Frisk as laughing at her misery or mocking how pathetic she is, before saying "… what? You didn't say/do that?" Narrachara supporters take this instance as evidence that the narrator is personally reacting to Snowdrake's mom, in a way distinct from Frisk, which implies the narrator is their own character with their own feelings.

However, we should pay more close attention to how the narrator actually behaves and what Frisk can do. In Undertale, Frisk doesn't ever exhibit the ability to disobey the narrator—if we command Frisk to do something, Frisk does what they're told. With Deltarune this is even more apparent, since it makes a huge character deal out of Kris needing to abuse loopholes to work around our commands, or rip out their soul in dramatic fashion to make their own choices.

As well, the narrator is still speaking in second person, which (if we assume Frisk disobeys the narrator) would imply they're trying to get Frisk to react in a particular way rather than describing their own feelings. In the Genocide Route, Chara either speaks in the first person, or completely avoids using pronouns at all, because they speak about themselves rather than Frisk. So, they are worded very differently.

As such, since Frisk cannot normally disobey the narrator, it seems to me that if the narrator truly described Frisk as mocking or laughing at Snowdrake's mom, they just would. So if the narration says "… what? You didn't do/say that?", this would indicate to me that the narrator made the intentional decision to backpedal on their first command.

Why would they do this? Well, if the narrator is a generic narrator, it has the ability to do literally whatever it wants to create whatever effect is intended by the game in the circumstance. It doesn't have to obey any specific kind of dialogue or character actions, because it doesn't have feelings or a personality. By writing the "ACT" description in this way, it creates the feeling of chaos, uncertainty, franticness, and distress. This would imply that Frisk doesn't know how to handle the situation, and this is how the narrator is choosing to portray that. This also falls in line with the chaotic, random style of narration to be found across all of the amalgamate battles, so it gives the True Lab a consistent tone.

If Narrachara Theory were true, we would need to accept that Chara made the conscious decision to give Frisk contradictory commands for some reason. Not only does this completely run against "their" style for the rest of True Pacifist, it also is the exact opposite of their shown personality in the Genocide Route, which is blunt and minimalistic. The Undertale alarm clock app also implies Chara, before they died, filled their water glass to the brim because it was "the most efficient way" to do it, further implying they are no-nonsense and direct. It also does not seem to me that, given Chara's experiences, they would have a unique emotional or psychological response to Snowdrake's mom that they have to nothing else in the game.

Again, this scene doesn't "fit in" with the vision of the narrator as a consistent and predictable character, because it is so different than anything else in the game.

Game Over Flashbacks

When you die, the game displays the "Game Over" notice and gives you a flashback of Asgore speaking to a dying Chara.

This is one of the few instances of evidence that isn't very easily discountable and actually does imply at first blush that Chara is somehow involved in all Game Overs. I'll detail the main issue with this, though:

This occurs in the Game Over screen, so at this point the game has broken its fourth wall and is treating itself very clearly as a video game. So, there is room to interpret this scene in a "meta" fashion which isn't held to the same logic as in-universe "soul mechanics" or "possession mechanics". Because the game is "being a video game", this scene could easily be read as the game deciding to show us, the player, information intentionally to deceive us (regarding Frisk's identity), and not because anything particular is happening "in the world". I'll explain this a bit more in the next section.

This might not be satisfying to people, who want to keep away from "meta" discussions. But there are problems with not accepting this "meta" logic. Let's assume this is happening "in the world". How does that work? When we die, Frisk's soul shatters and is destroyed, and then the Game Over sequence happens. If Frisk no longer has a soul, they don't exist, meaning they can't be experiencing the flashback. Chara says they need Frisk's soul to exist, so if Frisk's soul is gone, Chara is also gone, meaning Chara can't be seeing the flashback either. Flowey didn't have a soul, but he had Determination directly injected into his body, which Frisk didn't have, so we can't use Flowey as an analogue here. So who is seeing the flashback? How is it happening? There's no way to explain this literally.

You may then say, "Well Frisk's soul doesn't literally explode, we know human souls persist after death. This is just a video game representation to show the player they lost." And you are probably right. But if we can use "meta" logic for that, we can also use "meta" logic for the scene as I describe.

For firmer in-universe justification, we also know that the golden flower seeds cling to whatever they touch, and Frisk falls into a pile of golden flowers at the very start of the game, so it is arguable that Frisk always has a bit of Flowey’s essence on them at all times. This could establish that all “Game Over” flashbacks originate from Flowey/Asriel the same way as the three more specific flashbacks do that I discussed above.

Overall, it's not an air-tight response, but this scene introduces so much confusion and ambiguity that we can't feasibly take it as hard proof for Narrachara. It breaks the logic of the game world and can't be read according to consistent in-universe rules. It's very "loose".

Flowey in the True Pacifist Ending

After the True Pacifist credits, when you boot the game back up, Flowey appears and talks to "Chara" about how they are a threat to the characters' happiness and asks them to not reset the game, to allow Frisk to live their life. Narrachara supporters take this as hard proof that Chara is present in the True Pacifist Route. But let's examine the issues with that as we did the Game Over screen.

Firstly, this scene is inconsistent with Flowey's understanding of events in the True Pacifist Route. Flowey realizing that Frisk is not Chara was a pretty major character development for him. Additionally, Flowey also had the ability to reset even though he wasn't controlled by a player and connected by narration; so, according to in-universe logic, Flowey should have thought that Frisk had the power to reset, not "Chara", meaning they should be urging Frisk to not reset and live their life. Taking this scene literally would actually be an instance of inconsistent writing.

In fact, I would even go so far as to say interpreting Flowey as talking to Chara invalidates his character development from the True Pacifist ending. It would mean he was essentially wrong to conclude that Frisk is not Chara, since Chara would have been there the whole time, so him talking to Chara through Frisk would have been valid. Flowey letting go of Chara and accepting his flawed perceptions of them is the culmination of his character arc.

So...why is this scene happening?

Where does this scene take place? It occurs in a black void. Other black voids are in the game, such as the battle screen, but remember that this scene occurs after you first boot up the game, before you are brought to the select screen to load your save (which is an in-universe power). So at this point, you aren't "in the world" of Undertale, you are clearly looking at a "meta" space even beyond other "meta" representations like the combat screen, or Flowey's conversations with Chara in the Genocide Route. So, Flowey's actions and words here are not necessarily representative of Flowey "in the game", and aren't bound by the rules of the story.

So, why does this scene happen? It is obvious we are meant to name Chara our own name. Undertale riffs on a lot of RPG tropes, one of which being the player-named self-insert character you're supposed to project onto. Undertale subverts that by revealing your player character is their own character and you were "wrong" to assume they were a representation of you. Naming Chara after yourself also adds a ton of weight and tension to scenes where people refer to the Fallen Human by your name. It also makes your menu screen and stats feel more like they belong to you, which ties into the Genocide Route's message of raising your stats just because you like the feeling—something Chara attributes to the player.

Sure, "Chara" is referred as the "true name" of the Fallen Human, but it is obvious that Chara is short for "character", which is a generic moniker given to a character who isn't meant to have their own name. If Chara were meant to be named Chara, they would be named Chara and we wouldn't have the ability to make it not so. It's an Easter egg.

So, in this scene, Flowey is clearly intended to be talking to the player, to tell us as the player to not reset the game and "ruin" the "lives" of these characters. It is a full-circle completion of the themes of responsibility, and of bonding with the experiences of fictional characters. It also ties into Flowey's character backstory of growing existentially bored with life and treating everybody as just lines of dialogue. He is meant to parallel us, the players of the game, and it's meant to make us feel unique and heavy things about Undertale. The game is simply most impactful and meaningful when viewed through this lens. The game does use the same name that you give Chara, but this strikes me as out of necessity, to keep these themes hidden until the very end, rather than for any literal in-universe meaning.

This also factors into the previous point about the Game Over screen. Naming Chara after ourselves gives us the illusion Asgore is talking to us, which makes us more likely to imprint upon Frisk and feel they aren't their own person. This makes the plot twist in the end of True Pacifist more impactful.

Either way, this scene with Flowey has the same issues of being confusing and ambiguous. It is clearly written in a "loose" fashion that doesn't hold itself to the strict logic of what Flowey should know and believe at this point given his experiences. So it is not very conclusive evidence that Chara is present in this scene, or that Flowey is even talking to Chara instead of literally to us, the player.

And, crucially, two isolated incidents don't strike me as strong enough to outweigh the fact that the narrator simply is not written in a way that suggests they are a concrete character. It would be bad writing to have a poorly written narrator support its entire "concrete character" status with only two events. Particularly when those incidents have their own interpretation issues.

6) CHARA'S SPEECH IN THE GENOCIDE ENDING

With all the above in mind, let's look at the final big thing people look at as evidence for Narrachara Theory. Chara's speech is below, in full, written in normal sentence structure:

"Greetings. I am <Name>. Thank you. Your power awakened me from death. My "human soul" … my "determination"—they were not mine, but YOURS. At first, I was so confused—our plan had failed, hadn't it? Why was I brought back to life? … you. With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation: power. Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong. HP; ATK; DEF; GOLD; EXP; LV. Every time a number increases—that feeling—that's me: "<Name>". Now—now, we have reached the absolute. There is nothing left for us here. Let us erase this world, and move on to the next."

Narrachara believers draw the conclusion from this speech that "our" Determination is what brings Chara back to life, and since "we" possess Determination from the very start of the game in all routes, Chara is present from moment one in all routes. But let's pick apart this dialogue into sentences:

"Greetings. (end) I am <Name>. (end) Thank you. (end) Your power awakened me from death. (end) My 'human soul' … my 'determination'—they were not mine, but YOURS. (end) At first, I was so confused—our plan had failed, hadn't it? (end) Why was I brought back to life? (end) … you. (end) With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation: power. (end) Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong. (end) HP; ATK; DEF; GOLD; EXP; LV. (end) Every time a number increases—that feeling—that's me: '<Name>'. (end) Now—now, we have reached the absolute. (end) There is nothing left for us here. (end) Let us erase this world, and move on to the next. (end)"

Importantly, the sentence "Your power awakened me from death" is separate from "My 'human soul' … my 'determination'—they were not mine, but YOURS." There is room to interpret Chara as making two separate claims here:

That our "power" awakened them from death, with "power" being undefined in this sentence.

That their soul and Determination are ours, not theirs.

There are four main reasons why I think we should interpret Chara as referring to "power" as separate from Determination:

Chara defines "power" later on in their speech: "Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong. HP; ATK; DEF; GOLD; EXP; LV. Every time a number increases—that feeling—that's me: '<Name>'." It seems clear Chara meant something entirely different from Determination when they said "power", since Determination has nothing to do with killing, even if Chara thinks so.

Chara also isn't aware of how Determination works, seemingly, because Determination is derived from souls, and the soul they have is actually Frisk's, not ours. We are the player, interacting with the Undertale video game through a computer. We control Frisk's soul, and we use Frisk's Determination (which exists in-universe) to reset the universe. (Chara also spells "determination" with a lowercase "d" which implies they're using the generic term and not talking about the soul power but this is a dumb argument so I'm not gonna take it seriously).

Chara only manifests physically in the Genocide Route, meaning there needs to be something unique to the Genocide Route that explains this. Given the Genocide Route is defined by the pursuit of power (or high stats), the clear interpretation of this speech is to communicate that we invoked Chara by murdering everything. It is consistent with the events of the whole Genocide Route.

Given all the above issues with Narrachara, to interpret Chara's speech structurally in the way that specifically supports Narrachara Theory seems dishonest and self-serving.

Overall, interpreting this speech to "prove" that Chara was brought back with our Determination seems like faulty reading to me. If anything, an honest reading in-context seems to support my interpretation—that Chara relies on Frisk's soul and Determination to exist, but was woken up by our killing.

7) CONCLUSION

In conclusion, a comprehensive review of the narrator's behaviours, the poor quality and weight of much of the evidence, and the contradictory and "loose" writing of the strong evidence, seems to suggest that Narrachara Theory is false. My interpretation of the narrator—that they are a generic narrator that Chara "talks over" at points in the Genocide Route only—seems like the strongest interpretation.

To be clear, it seems as though Chara "went into" Frisk's soul at the start of the game, when they landed in the Underground, but that Chara was asleep originally and remains inactive in Neutral and True Pacifist Routes. Only in the Genocide Route does it seem that Chara wakes up to make their presence felt. This has a lot of implications, but the most obvious one is it means we cannot use the Neutral and True Pacifist Routes as examples of Chara's personality, values, behaviour, or moral standing.

And, if you happen to still be committed to the idea that Narrachara is true, at the very least the amount of evidence and rationale for Narrachara being false should make you feel less comfortable with just assuming everybody should believe Narrachara, or that anybody you speak to in the fandom will automatically be a Narrachara believer. The evidence is far from uncontroversial, and there is a lot of reason to believe Narrachara Theory is false. It is not a slam-dunk theory by any stretch.

Also, I hope I didn't come off as offensive in writing this. The last thing I want is to make people feel like I am being rude. This is all just the result of me replaying Undertale recently, and having many thoughts on this very fascinating character.

Have a nice day.

[randomsloredrops]

Random's Lore Drops - Flowey, the Psycho.

Obligatory 2:30 AM post (please help I'm an insomniac I think), so here's lore drop on the flower that nobody really mischaracterizes. That's right, IT'S...

Flowey the Fucker- I mean, Flowey the Flower. Yes, I went out of my way to find a sprite by toby fox that wasn't the exact same, so uh... bow-wearing Flowey lmao. Anywho, Spoiler warnings, so don't stay if you haven't played the hit game Undertale by Robert Fucking Fox. Or, at least, I think Fucking is his middle name. It'd be funny as shi- Oh yeah, I'm writing. ANYWAYS, Flowey the Flower is the antagonist and literally the final boss for two of the main endings (but one of them isn't actually Flowey). Or, well, "two", not including the fact that there are, like, fifty neutral endings with the same boss. Now, if you don't know much about him, he's a psychopathic, sadistic talking golden flower with no SOUL. Literally, he is SOUL-less, and so, he is soulless. That's basically his whole premise. His backstory is (SPOILER-FUCKING-WARNING) that he is Asriel Dreemurr, son of Toriel and Asgore Dreemurr, resurrected after his demise, but this time as a sentient flower due to a DT experiment gone wrong. As Flowey the Flower, his whole shtick is to be as deceiving as possible, acting as a fake tutorial in an attempt to kill you at the start of the game, using you so you can reveal the SOULs as you fight Asgore and weaken him to kill him, using you as bait in order to bring all of the major characters together so he can capture all of them and absorb their SOULs, along with the human SOULs, and finish you off, shattering Asgore's SOUL at the end of a genocide route in order to prevent you from leaving the Underground (since, knowing us, we'd just wipe out all of mankind), and also... well, that's all I can remember, really. Within the genocide route, he almost immediately mistakes you for Chara right after informing Toriel about her cars extended warranty that she couldn't pay since she was in the Ruins and thus sending the IRS after her, while it only takes a whole pacifist route for him to refer to you as such, as he usually just goes and refers to the player as "you" or, in the most Flowey way possible, "IDIOT" in the neutral route. He IS capable of feeling emotions, such as annoyance and anger, boredom, it's just so muted that he's almost emotionless, and due to this, has CANONICALLY murdered the ENTIRETY OF THE FUCKING UNDERGROUND MULTIPLE TIMES OVER, (and somehow people say Asgore is worse for killing only 6 human kids, when, in theory, Flowey has killed many more monster children) ranging from the most random Monsters ever, and despiseable Monsters, like Jerry, or Icecap, to Monsters like Toriel, who is, theoretically, as he is Asriel Dreemurr, but as emotionless flower, HIS OWN GODDAMN MOTHER. His whole reason as for why he wants the human SOULs in a Neutral route is to "become GOD", and in the Pacifist route, he just wants to do everything all over again, from the beginning, back when he and Chara were still alive. Because remember, in Pacifist, he STILL mistakes you for Chara until after you win against him. ...Oh, and remember, UTY isn't actually canon, so canon Flowey (as in Undertale canon, not UTY canon) doesn't know who the fuck Clover is. That's about it.

[charasgenociderun]

Fallout New Vegas.

“True Genocide Run.”

Rules:

The Mojave WILL Go Empty. (And So Will The DLC Locations.) Kill every single N.P.C in every area, the Mojave is a big place. So, I will be uploading a map of it on here for you to use as a guide.

Manipulation, Is Key. (The order of which locations you eradicate is irrelevant, do faction quests or not. It’s up to you.) While I say this, I should note: Goodsprings will fall first.

Every Vessel Is Different. (Experiment with different builds, there is no “right” way to go about it. Everyone has their own preferred play style.

Wipe The Slate Clean. (Completing Lonesome Road and launching the nukes at both N.C.R and Legion is required.)

Vegas, Belongs To No-one. (Since you will be killing everyone, the only person who you can side with is Yes Man. During the Mojave’s Final Stand, you need to destroy Hoover Dam. Rendering it unusable is key to ending any future attempts by N.C.R and Legion to try and settle on the Mojave Graveyard.)

My Brain? I Hardly Know Her. (The benefits of the Heartless, Brainless and Spineless perks are vital to ensuring that you are strong enough to fight.)

Chara, The True Name. (Since we are following in the footsteps of Undertale’s Genocide Run. Having your vessel be named Chara is a fun way to channel that inner demonic power.)

Never Let Go. (Dead Money is notoriously difficult, so I recommend going to Old World Blues first, acquiring the necessary perks recommended. Here’s some tips: Kill your compatriots in the Madre. Do it however you want, my preferred method is a cosmic knife to the throat.)

Survivors, In A Dying Land. (Randomly generated N.P.Cs will be a recurring presence, especially around Camp McCarran. So, be prepared if you’re doing double takes around that area.)

Link to an interactive map of the Mojave:

That does it!

Oh, and the most important thing is that you have fun, try new things. Thats why I made this run to begin with.

[iwontusethis255]

FUCK YOU, IMA POST THREE UNDERTALE AUS IN ONE POST, BITCHES

FIRST ONE, MADE IN LIKE 2020

ENSOULED

PREMISE: after a genocide route flowey goes to asgore and tells him about the human. asgore understands that this flower knows more than him, and entrusts him to give the human souls to whoever he deems fit. thus, this au. after defeating asgore, he gives both his human and monster soul to flowey so he can go to the surface and escape, but flowey goes to the surface and takes down 6 more humans becoming his hyperdeath form. however, the human is stronger, they were able to defeat 6 Ensouled Monsters, what's one more gonna do?

NEXT ONE, MADE IN LIKE 2021/22 I THINK

FLIPTALE

PREMISE: 3 years after the Monsters were trapped underground. W. D. Gaster, the Royal Scientist, under the nose of his lab assistant, Alphys, made a breakthrough. The Power of Dog. It far exceeds the power of a human soul. The power of 6 monster dogs, is stronger than that of 7 human souls. With this information, Gaster performed experiments on the monster dogs, eventually removing their souls entirely, replacing them with determination to keep them alive. The queen, Undyne, was not aware of how Gaster had obtained these souls, but what she did know was that the barrier was near breakage. However, the canines, missing their soul and having only determination, had grown into horrid abominations. Alphys had encountered one, and in his quite literal blind rage, he blamed her for their fate. Alphys, stricken with horror and grief, fled to the Ruins. Meanwhile, one dog monster was able to escape the laboratory before they could lose their soul with the help of their lover. They both knew the dog was not going to survive if they stayed in the underground, so the lover gave their life for the dog monster to cross the barrier for a better life on the surface. Papyrus Gaster, the new royal scientist, had attempted to recreate his fathers work after he had retired, in order to find a way to reverse it and fix the dog experiments. He added determination to a soulless object, a mushroom from the barrier, to see its effects on it. One day, the mushroom disappeared. The lover was reincarnated as that mushroom and, stricken with grief for the love of their death, they had made friends with Asgore and Toriel, under the new name Ragel, while they were at Nick’s Nice Cream Parlor. In the meantime, 8 humans had fallen into the underground, and since the fact human souls could open the barrier was lost the times, they were drafted as royal guards by the captain, Sans, (who was only put in power because Papyrus begged the queen to make him) and lead by Asriel. Papyrus, eager to help someone in need, created a body for a ghost named Madra, now Madroid, who soon became a celebrity in thee underground, even having a resort, multiple tv shows, and a restaurant chain. Meanwhile, Ragel was in grief. It had been so long, Ragel had even forgot everything about their long lost love but their face. The dog monster, in disguise on the surface, falls into the underground on an annual walk to their lovers grave

THIRD ONE, MADE LIKE A WEEK AGO?

UNNAMED THING

PREMISE: so i was thinking about how many undertale aus had sans as the literal only character. so i had the idea to make an au where each member of the cast was from a different au. But i decided to make the Frisk be from an au made by me. so introducing Corpse Flower! in a neutral fight (bc pacifist and genocide are too common) frisk (with charas ghost) was fighting flowey (with the 6 souls) and losing. however, in some way (idk yet) they fused. my current ideas are that the 6 souls forced omega flowey to help and then somehow that happened, or flowey having souls caused him to regret?? iunno ill keep it vauge until i figure it out. anyway this aus pretty foggy rn but ill keep yall updated. oh also kris from deltarune is in the main cast for an unexplained reason

[jacquelinemerritt]

The Philosophy of Undertale

Originally posted December 1st, 2015

Fortuna, Will to Power, and DETERMINATION

So, if you haven’t played Undertale, this is part of the article where I join the hype train and tell you that you should. It’s a fun and relatively short role playing game that’s fantastically written, and it’s also one of the funniest games I’ve ever played. The greatness of Undertale goes beyond humor though; it also serves as a critique of the Machiavellian notion of conquering Fortuna and the Nietzchean Ubermensch.

Spoiler Alert: This article spoils all three of the three possible endings of the game, so if you haven’t played through them yet, you should probably do that first.

Now, before we dive into Undertale, let me refresh your memory on what that philosophical jargon means. In his writing, Machiavelli attempts to dismantle the ancient understanding of Fortuna, or the idea that humankind’s best efforts will always be limited by our circumstances. Machiavelli didn’t believe that Fortuna was something that people had to accept, and so he argued for the conquering of Fortuna through force, with The Prince being a guide for how a ruler is to overcome Fortuna.

At the core of Nietzchean philosophy is the concept of the “Ubermensch,” or the “Overman.” The Ubermensch is a man who exerts his will to power over all those around him, dominating them so that they serve his purposes. Nietzsche came up with the Ubermensch in response to Modernism’s failure to prove the existence of an objective morality, and conceptually, the Ubermensch represents the idea that in the absence of objective morality, all that matters is how much stronger one person’s “will to power” is compared to another’s (or to paraphrase Plato, justice becomes the advantage of the stronger).

Getting back to Undertale, Machiavelli’s concept of Fortuna is represented through the concept of DETERMINATION, which your character is filled with anytime they visit a save point in the game. You discover at the end of the Genocide route that DETERMINATION is what allows you to reset your timeline to your last save, and you have a conversation with Flowey, who used to be able to reset time in this way before your character came along. This ability to reset time is the ultimate method of conquering Fortuna, but the game shows the negative consequences of this ability when it tells us Flowey’s story.

Flowey was a flower injected with DETERMINATION by Alphys, the royal scientist, and it came to life after being injected. This flower contained part of Asriel’s soul, a monster who was the prince of the underground, and he was brought back to life as a sentient flower. Flowey was rejected by his mother and father, Toriel and Asgore, and his isolation led him into a deep depression, causing him to commit suicide.

But as Flowey neared the brink of death, he realized that he didn’t want to die, and then he reappeared back at the beginning of his life as a flower. He then realized that he could reset his own timeline by bringing himself to the brink of death, and after a while, he began to use his ability to manipulate people. His ability to completely conquer Fortuna led him to a state of moral depravity, and he lost the ability to see people as anything but tools for his personal gain.

The Nietzschean Ubermensch is also shown through DETERMINATION, as the ultimate realization of the Overman’s potential. Nietzsche’s Ubermensch was able to overcome most human limitations through his will to power, but even he couldn’t overcome death. DETERMINATION allows your character to persist beyond even death, and when combined with your character’s domination over the lives of the monsters on the Genocide route, your character becomes an Ubermensch beyond what Nietzsche could have believed possible.

Of course, this is not without its costs; at the end of the genocide route, it is revealed that your character has been playing into the schemes of another since the beginning. Their name is Chara, and ever since they died in the underground, they have been plotting their revenge. By going through the underground and killing every single monster, you help realize their scheme, and after destroying the underground, they are released.

Chara then confronts you with a question: do you want to destroy the entire world? Of course, if you tell Chara that you don’t want to destroy the world, they will reveal that you have long since forfeited that option. The only choice Chara leaves for you is the option to reset your timeline, and proceed through the underground once more, as Chara respects the strange sentimentality you hold towards the world. (Interestingly, even Chara, the embodiment of destruction, suggests that you take a different path, as it might be better for you).

DETERMINATION, and its associated will to power beyond death, has other negative effects as well, which are seen in the True Lab along the Pacifist route. In the true lab, you discover that Alphys has been performing experiments with DETERMINATION, injecting it into monsters so that they might persist beyond death as well.

In the lab, you see that DETERMINATION is actively harmful to a monsters being, causing them to physically melt, with some melting together to become Amalgamates. The monsters, who throughout the game are shown to be very kind and nonviolent, cannot exist alongside DETERMINATION, and in this way, Undertale makes its final critique of Nietzschean morality: the will to power is actively destructive towards kindness, generosity, and goodness, and it is impossible for these things to exist within Nietzsche’s amoral framework.

*Flowey/Asriel is able to survive containing DETERMINATION because of Asriel’s soul bonding with the flower that was injected. The flower’s physical form is stronger than a monster’s body, and so DETERMINATION will not destroy it.

[yall-hate-kids-tourney]

Grand Finals: Chara Dreemurr (Undertale) vs. Amane Momose (MILGRAM)

Propaganda below the cut

Chara Dreemurr (?):

They were constantly blamed for killing all of monster kind in the no mercy route, despite players choosing to go that route. People ignored that they sacrificed themselves to attempt to free the monsters from the underground.

----

everyone wants to blame their own actions (genocide route) on chara, who is a literal child. i don’t know how to tell you this but you are the one playing the game. it’s about YOUR CHOICES. chara is there is punish you for that, you killed the only family that ever loved them! how could they not be upset at that! also if you don’t mind, here’s a good video essay on the subject 

Amane Momose (12):

Amane was voted guilty in the first trial so that she would acknowledge her guilt. It backfired, and now she’s considered a threat. Well, everyone is a threat, but nobody’s threat level has been as heavily discussed and debated as hers. Consider the next prisoner in line, Mikoto. He’s objectively more dangerous and cannot be restrained. He beat up the guard in trial 1, and he was able to hold his own when the other guilty prisoners were attacked. But a good incentive to forgive him is so that he will calm down. You know what? That’s a good incentive to forgive Amane too! But she *can* be restrained, so a good portion of the discussion went into how she should be voted guilty so she *will* be restrained and not a threat. Since her vote was a near 50/50, of course a good chunk of the voters expressed dissatisfaction with her forgiven verdict. Some are already planning to vote her guilty for trial 3, calling her a “lost cause”. She hasn’t even done any concrete harm yet. Hold the pitchforks until she actually causes harm, please? And what if she *was* voted guilty in trial 2? We’ve been warned that she will continue to deny our judgement. A second guilty verdict won’t make her better either, and then what? She’d be called a “lost cause” as well. There is no winning with her.

----

Where do I even start? So first of all she’s an cult child who was physically and mentally abused and tortured by her parents and then (presumably) murdered her mother after her mother killed a cat that she took care of.

Now everyone in Milgram is a murderer but when Amane came and her MV showed her murder and circumstance in an admittedly highly fictionalized depiction of it the audience decided to…repeat the cycle of abuse!

She was voted guilty for the main reason of “teaching her” and helping her “realize that she was abused.” I would like to note that this tough love approach is something her parents utilized against her. “We are only doing this to help you.”

So the audience replicates Amane’s abusers and repeats the cycle of abuse and that’s pretty shitty but it isn’t exactly “Fuck Em Kids” level.

And then Trial 2 happened. Cause Amane is bitter and angry and horrifically traumatized so she acts aggressive and hostile. Especially towards another prisoner.

Now, again, everyone here is a fucking murderer (of atleast could be constructed as one) These people being able to Harm is a core concept of this series.

Yet for some reason it feels like people treat Amane as a “delusional creepy kid who wants to kill people” which completly takes away the nuance of her character. She does have the capacity to harm! Everyone here does! She’s not Uniquly Dangerous! She just has a Reason to be Dangerous. A Reason we GAVE HER by REPEATING THE CYCLE OF ABUSE.

In short: In a series full of Murderers I’m honestly a bit pissed that the 12 year old abuse victim is the one who’s treated like the guy from American Pyscho.

----

TL;DR: "We metavoted this abused, indoctrinated child guilty in trial 1, but it didn't work. Now she is a threat to three grown adults: one who is fully free and two whom she has been shown to get along with. Please metavote her guilty again so she will be restrained and unable to attack them, even though that means subjecting her to further psychological torture." Amane Momose is the youngest of ten murderers, prisoners of Milgram who are to be judged innocent (forgiven) or guilty (unforgiven). In the first interrogation (voice drama), she said that what she did was in line with her religion's doctrines. If we judged her the "wrong way", she said she will just deny the verdict. Combining the voice drama and music video, you could piece together that she was raised in a cult and abused, even though she is cheerful and downplays her pain. She never shows *who* she killed, only *why* she did. After the first day of her vote, she was 81% innocent, but this wouldn't last the whole three months. Many people voted her guilty so she would "see her sins", part of the practice commonly known as "metavoting". Her innocent percentage rapidly decreased, and she hit guilty in the last 15 days, finishing at 51% guilty. At the end of the first trial, Jackalope (who is something like a host) went over all the prisoners' verdicts and commented on the general reasoning. When he got to Amane, he *laughed* at the audience for voting that way to make her realize her sins. Trial 2 rolled around, and it was revealed that Amane's victim was her abuser. On day one, she was at 74% innocent. Seems like a cut-and-dry case now, right? Well... in the intermission, two of the prisoners (Fuuta and Mahiru) were badly beaten up and became reliant on the care of Shidou, a doctor. Amane became hostile to Shidou because what he was doing was against her beliefs. She visited all three of them on their birthdays to convince them to change their ways. She seems to be especially close to Fuuta, who is now murmuring about salvation. Guilty prisoners are psychologically tortured, forced to listen to voices that reject their beliefs. Fuuta and Mahiru both say that the mental strain is worse than their physical injuries. But Amane, who also looks worse for wear, was thrown under the bus because she isn't injured and is considered a physical threat to them (never mind that she gets along with them). She's considered a threat to Shidou, a grown man who is twice her size and fully free, while she is partially restricted by the long sleeves in her trial 2 uniform. She might indoctrinate Fuuta even though, in a prison of ten people and one guard, she's the only voice of her cult. Fortunately, she got a break. Her vote was falling at a similar rate to the first trial. But this time, it stabilized at 51% innocent, 12 days before the end of her vote. But there's no way this is over.

[fianceart]

┆˹ 🍃 ˼┆◌ Hello hello! I introduce myself, I'm fiance mizu and I'm here to talk to you about my project, an Au based on undertale! •🫐 ▸

-*comic in progress*-

Fanart made by a Twitter artist!

✨ ━━━━━Who is saved sans?━━━━━ ✨

╰┈➤ Saved sans is the guardian and protector of promises, he is in charge of taking care of them and that nothing bad affects the progress of fulfilling them, giving advice head-on, oh in your head, being as if you were giving it to yourself

╰┈➤ where do you live? he dwells and lives in Promisetale! an Au "destroyed" practically, in that au there are only floating lands surrounded by a great galaxy, and in these lands there are various echo flowers where the promises of each Au are kept, even yours

fanart made by saw - Minerva, an artist on Twitter, the full drawing can be found on her profile

╭✩*⢄⢁✧ --- Saved data and likes/dislikes¿ --- ✧⡈⡠*✩╮

ɞ ๛ *- saved is a calm skeleton that only seeks to help others keep their promises, not to abandon her or forget her, she is serious and mature in issues or situations that require it, but always smiling

ɞ๛ *- saved is not one to live with much, he is always in Promisetale oh in different alternate Aus taking care and watching over the promises

ɞ ๛ *- saved have friends? of course! among these are PaperCrane, ink, Dream, blueberry, screw, quill, athena, kamay, kind, hardthey, etc.

ɞ ๛ *- saved loves to eat churros! It is his favorite dish, and even more so if it has chocolate on top, he is a glutton

fanart made by saw - Minerva, an artist on Twitter, the full drawing can be found on her profile

ɞ ๛ *- saved give off any friendly aura? No!! The only thing Saved does is help promises to be fulfilled to the letter, and when he does not achieve his goal, he just withdraws, leaving that monster alone, even if it causes him damage.

ɞ ๛ *- one of his dislikes oh phobia is water, not touching it or anything like that, just being surrounded by a lot of water, like being on a ship in the middle of the ocean with no way out He practically has thalassophobia

ɞ ๛ *- he hates people who are liars when they promise another person something that he knows he can't keep. He dislikes that!

ɞ ๛ *- he does not like to touch or pluck some flower echo of Promisetale, since these contain the promises and can cause harm to him

ɞ ๛ *- What was Saved's first friend? This was PaperCrane, since he appeared first in his Au and helped him with his mental and physical problems, giving Haci the beginning of a friendship even though they have had fights.

fanart made by saw - Minerva, an artist on Twitter

ɞ ๛ *- Saved is Arobixesual, he likes both genres but doesn't feel love for them? Idk

fanart made by saw - Minerva, an artist on Twitter

๛ *- did you have friends and family? Yes, but they died together with Brokentale [Promisetale] since PaperCrane accidentally destroyed it, although they were already dead from the genocidal route they were going through, although now they aren't that dead hehe

ɞ ๛ *- Saved has enemies? Yes, hidden who "should" be the keeper of the promises is, wanting to kill him for taking his life, since he is Saved's first failed attempt

🥀༶ •┈┈┈ Who is hidden sans? ┈┈┈• ༶🥀

°As already mentioned, hidden is the enemy of Saved, it is also a "destroyer" it is the first failed attempt by gaster to recreate the guardian of the promises

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ Hidden is a bit grumpy and serious, he doesn't like or like to be around others or that others want to be around him

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼Hate promises, feel that they are not so important that you have to take care of them or protect them

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼He does not live in a single Au, he travels from Au to Au practically seeking to make some monster break his promise or forget it to cause Haci damage to Saved

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ hidden is not afraid, he thinks that it is something silly and that fear is for the weak

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ He likes coffee sweets, that's what gives him strength and what he sometimes eats

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ hidden is gay, although he hardly accepts it, he doesn't even accept the fact that he has a partner

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ hidden's partner is called kye, who he met in Outertale, their relationship is Canon

kye belongs to @dulcelawaifu [on Twitter] just like the drawing below

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ hidden has a gaster blaster, although he prefers to fight more hand-to-hand with his spear and "knives"

⏤͟͟͞͞⪼ hidden doesn't fight much with other people, the only hate he has is towards Saved

For example, he sees someone hurt or in trouble, he will help him, since those people are not to blame for what happened to him, he thinks that the only one to blame for being discarded is Saved, even if whoever gets in his way of ending him Saved becomes his enemy instantly

===✨°Why are promises important°✨===

°This way of acting helps to strengthen personal will and, at the same time, projects an image of credibility on others. The fulfillment of promises is a golden rule for coexistence

°If the promise is broken, the trust between the two people is lost, something that if it happens several times can end a friendship or even a relationship

° When you make a promise, you are giving your word to someone, and that person will expect you to keep it. Being able to keep your word or your promises says a lot about your character and who you really are. trust is very important

° Fulfilling the word decompresses psychologically, lightens the load, reinforces self-esteem and makes us feel like people worthy of all merit, respect and value

° practically the promises cause positive feelings, yes that is something that Dream supports in taking care of

꒷︶꒷꒥꒷‧₊Clarification of some things‧₊˚꒷︶꒷꒥꒷

•the friendship between ink, blueberry, uh Dream is not canon, it's just a headcanon, so to speak

•Quill, screw, athena and kamay , kind if they are canon friends! its creators are on Twitter

• PaperCrane does not belong to me, it belongs to little-noko

• hidden and Saved are not the same person nor are they siblings!

🩷=If you have any questions, just tell me and I will gladly answer you=🩷

🫐Thanks for taking the time to read! I have a few more things to say but I didn't want to make it so long, thanks anyway!🫐

[averageundertaleblog]

i kinda had this empty account since 2019 and never did anything with it but now im just gonna use this to talk about my undertale aus and stuff, even if people don't really get to see any of this it's still cool to log my stuff

anyways uhh lemme just list my aus rq and give them each a short explanation

Dusttale: A Different Approach

- Basically a combination of Something New & Dusttale, the player finishes a genocide route and wants to take a different approach to the game. They rewrite and alter majority of the game's code until they managed to control Sans and play as him, however Sans is still conscious and becomes the narrator instead of Chara. The player attempts to do a pacifist route but Frisk was seen moving around and basically starts doing a genocide route on their own, oooooo. Spooky. So the player decided that the best course of action was to kill everyone and become stronger while also preventing Frisk to get any more LV.

Storyshift: A Tale Amongst Legends

- Several neutral routes takes place and Chara gets pissed off so they meet Shifty at around Waterfall and start battling. Eventually Chara gets tired of Shifty trying to toy with their world so they attempt to reset but Shifty also tries to as well. Causing a massive collision between the two resets and changed their world drastically, Asriel now has mental breakdowns, King Sans is over 10 feet tall now, and the barrier never existed in the first place, basically everyone became different whether it was little or significant. Chara couldn't find Shifty anywhere so they just accepted this changed world of theirs and lived their life as normal, until a blond "drama queen" was brought into the story.

(This AU is actually my friend's instead of mine but I kinda work like the co-owner and writer of it so eh, plus my friend said it was cool to talk about it here so here we are)

OVERTURN

- Story is still WIP but basically the barrier was shattered long ago thanks to W.D Gaster Skeleton and the rest of his team and monsterkind decided to keep living in Mount Ebott. Due to this, the seven previous children weren't killed and instead taken cared of. They're also kind-of in another war in some way idk me and my pals have to think about that.

(Recently made AU me and my two best friends are cooking up rn, kinda inspired by EPICTALE)

A DIFFERENT TALE

- Basically an AU where me and my friend's OCs were just self-inserted into the UNDERTALE universe in a way. A bunch of races had a world war and humanity won, the humans locked the war prisoners and experimented on some of them and treated them very harshly, studying them into getting more power. However this formed an uprising and created an entire united army known as the Resistance, some humans joined this army while the rest of humanity stayed together and fought against the Resistance in this second war. Humanity once again won and sent their strongest "heroes" to banish the Resistance army into a pocket dimension, which was basically an island on a neverending ocean.

yeah uhh you can criticize or whatever idrc im just showing off because i can lol, maybe if i get enough followers i can do some ask blog thingy within one of my aus, that would be nice