#shibboleth of Feanor

[millenariumhappinesstheorem]

Maglor: She sells seashells on the seashore :)

Fëanor: TRAITOR

Maglor, crying: Forgive me! I forgot about--

Fëanor: DO IT AGAIN. DO IT RIGHT.

Maglor, through tears: the thells theathells on the thea thore...

[eri-pl]

Túrin spoke Quenya with thúle.

(aka "the Feanorian lisp").

Proof: he spoke the language, because he did name himself in it when in Brethil.

The only place he may have learned it is Nargothrond (because obviously not Doriath), and descendants of Finarfin (except the unfriend forever Galadriel) and their people kept the archaic th, because the Teleri had it, and they liked the Teleri.

... This makes the whole Dagor Dagoradh (or whatever it's spelled) thing way funnier. Still lame, but at least funny. Imagine Morgoth's face when he gets beaten by an angry human guy speaking Feanorian(ish) Quenya. The utter confusion.

[thewhitewolf2002]

Guys, I was going over some Tolkien grammar just now and something bugged me, why the word "moon" in Quenya is with "S" but in Sindarin it is with "TH" which is basically like it was written in Feanorian Quenya (just replacing the th with þ), Is there a reason for this linguistic regression or is it just Sindarin's weirdness? Do any of you know?

Just a thought

Moon

Iþil = Feanorian Quenya

Isil = Quenya

Ithil = sindarin

[thelordofgifs]

Thinking about that line in the Shibboleth of Fëanor that even his sons might not have all adhered to the old-fashioned thorn pronunciation after his death - which immediately raises the question, so which ones did?? Random headcanons only vaguely supported by anything in the text below.

(Disclaimer that this all obviously became somewhat moot when Thingol’s Quenya ban came into play. Using crispy Amrod canon here.)

Maedhros: there are pages I could write on Maedhros’ complicated relationship with his father and his father’s legacy, it absolutely fascinates me. Initially Maedhros is the son of Fëanor who most openly defies his father - he stands aside at Losgar, he goes to parley with Morgoth literally as soon as Fëanor is dead, and, most notably, he gives the crown to Fingolfin. These are not the actions of a dutiful eldest son devoted to his father’s memory, which makes me fairly confident in saying that Maedhros definitely dropped the thorn post-Thangorodrim. It’s a fairly minor gesture of reconciliation compared to dispossessing his entire house, and I really don’t think Maedhros has many fucks left to give about linguistics after decades hanging from a cliff.

How did this change, say, post-Nirnaeth when there were effectively no descendants of Indis left to make nice with? I don’t know, but I rather like playing with the headcanon that Maedhros started using the thorn again in the last century or so of his life, especially when his mental state was particularly bleak.

Maglor: I don’t think Maglor’s feelings about his father were much less complicated than Maedhros’. He’s specifically noted as hanging out with Finrod and being trusted by Maedhros not to cause a scene at the Mereth Aderthad, suggesting that he very much follows Maedhros’ lead in reconciliation with the other side of the family. On the other hand, Maglor has always been rather fascinated by his dead grandmother, and he maintains that people’s names should be pronounced the way they want them to be pronounced. Also, several of his older works contain puns that absolutely hinge on the th/s distinction. He doesn’t drop the thorn.

Celegorm: actually never used the thorn consistently in the first place, a constant source of annoyance for his father. Celegorm values fast and efficient communication over linguistic precision - if foxes don’t have a word for what he wants to express, he’ll borrow one from Dog. Meaning over pedantry. Prescriptivism is stupid. He’s one of the fastest of the sons to pick up Sindarin, and displays zero interest in actually studying it. Post-reconciliation of the Noldor, he uses the thorn when the distinction is necessary for clarity, and doesn’t otherwise. Everyone is used to this.

Caranthir: I could go either way here, not having many headcanons about Caranthir’s relationship with his father. Since he’s not particularly on board with Maedhros’ efforts at diplomacy, let’s say he keeps the thorn, purely because nobody can tell him what to do.

Curufin: absolutely does not drop the thorn, that was his father’s hill to die on which means it’s his too. Is constantly furious with his brothers whenever they mispronounce something, this is personal, how can they just betray everything Fëanor stood for like that?? Will fully march Tyelpë out of the room if non-Fëanorian Quenya is being spoken there, his child’s ears are Pure and will not be Sullied with Improper Language. The Fëanorions are generally annoyed by Thingol’s Ban, but at least it gives Curufin a new target for all his linguistic aggression.

Amras: has never forgiven his father for Losgar and never will. Drops the thorn out of pure spite. 

[eldal0te]

Fandom: Ony feanorians use thorn, no other elves would ever use it.

Jirt: Actually, many of them would. Galadriel is just a petty bitch

[edennill-archived]

"Þilmaril" would be something the non-Fëanorians say to mock him tbh.

My toxic trait is that when I encounter the ‘Fëanorian lisp’ in a fanfiction I’ll go check the root of the word to make sure it was originally written with a Þ and it is not a linguistic abomination. For example: Þauron is correct since the archaic form is Thaurond, but saying Þilmaril would send Fëanor in a fiery fit of anger.

[beatx-mavie-archangelx]

"pronouncing 'Þerindë' as 'Serindë' is not that big of a deal" just say you've always been called right your whole life.

[eri-pl]

Dear Feanorians and people who know Quenya:

How do I know which words do the Feanorian "th" and which words are always "s"? ("They're spelled with suule vs with silme" is not an answer: How do I know how they're spelled?)

Do I compare them with Sindarin and if Sindarin has "s", it's always "s"? Like, "estel" is always s, right?

Thank you.

[thelordofgifs]

Right let’s settle this.

[ardafanonarch]

Wait, so like, does Fingolfin's son Argon exist or not?

The Argon Element

He does! Christopher Tolkien tells us (though regrettably does not show us) that his name first appeared in a genealogical table of the House of Finwë dating to 1959, which Tolkien was still revising in 1968 when he wrote the 'Shibboleth of Fëanor'.* It is in that essay that Argon's story appears, in the "excursus on the names of the descendants of Finwë":

Arakáno was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth (but the Sindarin form Argon was often later given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour).

A footnote on this passage reveals more about him. (This is also the only mention in Tolkien's published writings of the Battle of Lammoth.)

When the onset of the Orks caught the host at unawares as they marched southwards and the ranks of the Eldar were giving way, [Argon] sprang forward and hewed a path through the foes, daunted by his stature and the terrible light of his eyes, till he came to the Ork-captain and felled him. Then though he himself was surrounded and slain, the Orks were dismayed, and the Noldor pursued them with slaughter.

But his death at Lammoth was not the only fate Tolkien considered for this short-lived (on multiple levels) character. Christopher Tolkien comments (note 38):

[The third son of Fingolfin, Arakáno (Argon), emerged in the course of the making of the genealogies. A pencilled note on the last of the four tables says that he fell in the fighting at Alqualondë; this was struck out, and my father noted that a preferable story was that he perished in the Ice. It is curious that this third son, of whom there had never before been any mention, entered (as it seems) without a story, and the manner of his death was twice changed before the remarkable appearance here of 'the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth', in which he fell. In the account in the Grey Annals (XI.30) Fingolfin, after the passage of the Helkaraxë, 'marched from the North unopposed through the fastness of the realm of Morgoth, and he passed over Dor-Daedeloth, and his foes hid beneath the earth'; whereas in the present note his host was attacked in Lammoth 'at unawares as they marched southwards'.]

Confusingly, in the same essay Arakáno ('high chieftain') is said to be the mothername given by Indis to Fingolfin. It's not clear if Tolkien intended for Fingolfin and his youngest child to share a name or if he was simply throwing names at the wall to see what would stick.

What are you thoughts on Argon? Did he exist? How do his existence and tragic fate change how you think about the characters closest to him? Any wild Argon headcanons? And most importantly, how do you feel about him being taller than Turgon?

*The 'Shibboleth' is published in The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12: The Peoples of Middle-earth.

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

From the Shibboleth of Feanor: “His shield… could be seen by elvish eyes from a great distance if he stood upon a height”

Limitation: there is not always a readily available height.

Solution: there is always a readily available Elrond.

[longsightmyth]

Continuing my tradition of Possibly Hot Takes, I don't care that they removed the quenya names from the LotR character tags, it's a mild annoyance at best and sending complaints to ao3 about it is silly

There are much larger things to complain to ao3 about, like the volunteer who got censured for having from the river to the sea in their slack profile

[soothingmoonlight]

The change from þ to s was a political move no matter how much any Noldo or Indis of the Vanyar try to deny it. And it was in fact a very unfortunate and unwise change that actually damaged the Quenya language. Were it not for the strife in the house of Finwë, the thorn would have been kept as all the lore masters agreed with Fëanor's opinion on the matter.

"Into the strife and confusion of loyalties in that time this seemingly trivial matter, the change of þ to s, was caught up to its embitterment, and to lasting detriment to the Quenya tongue. Had peace been maintained there can be no doubt that the advice of Fëanor, with which all the other lore-masters privately or openly agreed, would have prevailed." - Shibboleth of Fëanor, HoME XII, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

Regardless of how people in the fandom delight in mocking Fëanor and saying he had a lisp, the truth is that he was the one who spoke proper Quenya. He wanted to keep both 'þ' and 's' as both letters surve a purpose and are needed in order to speak the language correctly. Þ (the thorn) is not an alternative pronunciation for 's' . Imagine making the same change in the English language and substituting all the 'th' sounds with 's' sounds and notice how many words would change their meaning e.g. þink [think] -> sink.

Idea for the poll submitted by anonymous – slightly altered.

[eri-pl]

Silme, sule, orthography and stuff

(@dfwbwfbbwfbwf you wanted me to explain, and it's too much for a comment)

So, the th -> s shift in Quenya. And the question of "which words do have the Feanorian th".

The th is one letter (sule | thule), and there's another letter, silme, and everyone pronounces it as s, even the Feanorians.

To know how would they say "Silmaril", we need to know which tengwa (=letter) does this word use. Thanks to @nerdy-catfish for giving me a link to some etymology. No th variant is mentioned, so it is the silme s.

Also, I realized that I have the edition of the Silm which has Tengwar ornaments on the inner cover and it mentions Silmarils and I checked and yes, it's spelled with silme.

Anyway, I was to talk about Polish orthography and how we had similar situations as the Quenya "th -> s". (English likely had some of those too, but I know Polish better. )

So, for example, long ago we had "ó", which was a different "o". Not longer, I think, but higher in tone? I'm not sure. It slowly changed in sound and became as English "oo". But. We already had a "oo" sound and letter, the letter "u".

So the result is that now, Polish kids have to learn which words with the "oo" sound use "ó" and which use "u".

Why won't we do a revolution and spell all of them with "u"? I don't know.

But, just like in Quenya, it is visible in etymology. It helps to remember many words. For example:

"róg" (horn) <-> "rogi" (horns)

If the "oo" sound changes to o (or a) in some word... (whatever it's called), it's "ó". The "u" never changes. (But, sadly, some "ó" stays as "ó" always too.)

We have similar problems with other sounds, all caused by sounds converging and two letters becoming one sound:

u / ó = oo sound

h / ch = h sound

ż / rz = zh suond

I imagine the poor non-Exilic elven kids must have a hard time with the s-sound too. Oh, wait. Elves have perfect memory. :o

Also, an interesting fact: now it's almost gone, but like a 100 years ago you could very well tell if a Polish person was from the Eastern part of Poland (or rather: of what was Poland before WW2) or well-educated, by how they pronounced "ł". Now we all say it just like English "w" :( but earlier they pronounced it with a touch of "l".

So it's kinda like with Feanorian vs non-Feanorian Noldor. The difference is audible.

BTW, even if we disregard the poiltics, I still have a dillema on sule vs thule.

"Th" makes the orthography non-ambivalent and also fits the Tengwar scheme better - the sound fits better with others in its set.

"S" sounds better in my ears. Maybe because I'm Polish and the "th" sound is not native to me.

[ardafanonarch]

Is it a canon for fanon idea that Elros and Elrond are identical twins?

Based on the research I did for this post on who was born first, I found no evidence to confirm or deny that Tolkien imagined them as identical.

Elladan and Elrohir seem to have been ("so much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart," from The Lord of the Rings) and Amrod and Amras also ("alike in mood and face" from the Silmarillion and "much alike and remained so while they lived" in The Shibboleth of Feanor). It's not clear whether Eluréd and Elurín were conceived as identical; in several texts they are not even twins.

[erendur]

After Alqualondë and the departure of the exiles, the Vanyar, Falmari and remaining Noldor decide that the situation has to be handled in a cool, collected way, and decide to ban anything even remotely Fëanorian. The problem, of course, they quickly realise, is that Fëanor is either the inventor or the the perfecter of pretty much everything they use on a daily basis, not to mention that his designs and inventions were so admired and influential that even things made not directly by him were very heavily influenced by his style (everybody’s best dining set in Valinor bears a now disturbingly high amount of Fëanorian stars).

So they decide in a cool, collected way to just erase the past few hundred years, pretend they never happened and go back to the way things way before Fëanor’s birth, like any rational Elf would do.

They organise a great meeting of their principal leaders, presided over by Ingw�� who has suddenly remembered he is supposed to be High King of the whole lot, and go through a detailed item-by-item list of the things they need to get rid of.

Things go well for most of the meeting, the remaining Noldor looking very sheepish on their side of the table and Arafinwë subtly angling his chair towards the Vanyar side of the table (to which his chair seem to be incrementally closer as the meeting progress, for some reason), the Falmari very grim given that they have selected those of their members with the most scars to send as their delegation (they are hoping to negotiate an exemption concerning the very nifty iron fishing apparatus Fëanor designed for them, and have settled on this as a negotiation strategy.) 

They decide to get rid of Tangwar, of course, Palantiri, modern lighting apparatus (the light of the stars is best, anyway !), buttonholes, sharp metal knives and most of their jewellery. Of course, some sacrifices have been harder than others - Yes, Beautiful Golden Hair the Third, you know that these curling tongs did not exist when we first arrived in Valinor, use heated pinecones instead, they work as well (they don’t, but they can all distinctly remember the mountain of curls Maedhros was sporting throughout most of his childhood after Nerdanel, wanting to make sure everybody got the message that her baby was really beautiful, had tweaked the design of pre-existing, very inferior hair-styling tools, the resulting “curls trend” and the somewhat over-the-top hairstyles everybody in Tirion had been sporting for a moment) - but it’s all for the greater good.

Then, one of Ingwë’s advisor looks at the next item on the list.

“Well, Ô High King, back then, we used to use “th” instead of “s”, in certain words, you know…”

Everybody turns deathly pale. The linguistic shift ! They’d all forgotten about the linguistic shift !

@dfwbwfbbwfbwf I was thinking of this, with your idea of a Tengwar being abandoned :)

The remaining Valinor elves with anything vaguely Fëanorian after Fëanor’s departure.