#shen jiu would be such a tragic character

[slouph]

HELP!! I transmitigated into my own novel and developed Complex Feelings for the SCUM VILLIAN!!! 

[disgracefulthings]

In defense of Yue Qingyuan

I like to start off and say that you don't have to like Yue Qingyuan, but there is an aspect of his character that many people misunderstand, and I would like to explain it

"Why did Yue Qingyuan never tell Shen Jiu that he came for him?" This was something that I was confused by at first too, and yeah, it made him look bad. I'm not a huge fan of fanfics that over-villainizes him, but if that's cathartic for some people then I get it

What made me realize why Yue Qingyuan never came for Shen Jiu was me thinking about WHY their relationship was added to the story in the first place. What did these two characters mean to the svsss as a whole?

Shen Jiu is Luo Binghe's foil, they are very similar and both fall down a dark path. That made me look at both Shen Yuan and Yue Qingyuan, and that's when it hit me. Shen Yuan did the exact same thing Yue Qingyuan did. He never told Luo Binghe why he pushed him, and while WE know that he isn't able to explain the System, there was one thing he could've done to help Luo Binghe, and that would be to tell him that he regretted it. The System wasn't stopping him from saying it, so why didn't he?

Both Shen Yuan and Yue Qingyuan kept their silence for the same reason, they thought it wouldn't matter. Yue Qingyuan failed Shen Jiu, and Shen Yuan hurt Luo Binghe, and both of them believed that there was nothing they could do to fix it. Whatever they say would only be excuses, they have already failed, and nothing would change that

They don't see that explaining/apologizing would mean the world to Shen Jiu/Luo Binghe, and because of their silence on the matter, it's sends Shen Jiu and Luo Binghe into dark places

So let me ask you this. "Why does the fandom hate Yue Qingyuan and not Shen Yuan, who did the same thing?" And the answer is pretty clear. We see through Shen Yuan's perspective throughout the book, so we understand his reasoning, Yue Qingyuan's reasoning just wasn't spelled out for us. I love MXTX's writing, and how she doesn't just explain every aspect of a character, it's up to the reader to find out. She never outright says "Shen Yuan doesn't see the people around him as people, but as characters", we see that in how he thinks. Sadly that means that sometimes things are missed, and that includes the purpose of Yue Qingyuan's character

Anyway I wanted to put this out there because I've seen a lot of Yue Qingyuan hate, and like I said in the beginning, you are still free to hate this man, everyone has their character preferences. I just find it odd when people hate him for things Shen Yuan have did, yet he isn't treated the same way as Yue Qingyuan is by the fandom

Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu are a tragic duo that have an unhappy ending in 2 canonical worlds, and while they are very flawed individuals, I can't help but want them to get better and be happy

[dangermousie]

A danmei lover's biased and incomplete het web novel rec list

@mercipourleslivres thanks for inspiring me!

When it comes to Chinese web novels, I mainly read danmei. I tend not to care too much for OP heroine with a hero who dotes on her for no reason as she fights with 14 year olds narratives, nor inner courtyard fights. BUT!!! There are some het web novels I like and so here is my biased and incomplete rec list. Most of these don't have OP heroines, and very little to none courtyard fights.

Before I start, my favorite het web novel authors are: Gong Xinwen, Mo Shu Bai, Peng Lai Ke, and Jiu Lu Fei Xiang. I have yet to read anything bad by them.

Anyway, rec list:

1000 Miles of Bright Moonlight - one of my ultimate favorites, this would make such an epic drama! A smart as hell heroine, a hero who is a monk and a warrior (but also terminally?) ill and such a vivid world and amazing secondary characters (heroine’s brother is possibly my favorite supporting character of all time) and so much angst and happy ending. This has an amazing romance but it’s not romance-centric if it makes sense - ML doesn’t appear for a while. But once he does, it’s worth it!

Accompanying the Phoenix - the one that just got adapted into The Legend of Shen Li, this is high adventure and cottage core and funny and tragic and powerful ML being putty in the hands of capable FL and just EVERYTHING.

Apocalypse Arrival - Gong Xinwen’s novels are made just for me. Her heroines are always powerful as fuck and rescue abused MLs. In this novel, our heroine who lives in the post-apocalyptic world, wakes up right before that apocalypse happens. She forms a survival crew and also rescues ML who has miraculous blood and has been drained of it and is now hunted after the rescue for it. SO GOOD!!!

Black Moonlight Holds the BE Script - so fucked up, so good, with monster hero who learns to love and be human and heroine who learns to love and be human (but from the other side, her tower of perfection.) Much better than the drama which I did enjoy.

The Blue Whisper - the drama was so-so, but the novel is a bona fide angst masterpiece, which really delves into what it feels like to be imprisoned or to love.

Counterattack of the Cannon Fodder Chambermaid - I remember starting this and loving the realistic feel and the heroine and wanting to stab the hero and @mercipourleslivres telling me to be patient. She was right, by the end I was on board with both the hero (who was abused and is rather autistic-coded) and the OTP. Anyway, heroine is a servant who was a concubine in the last life and got killed as part of a rich family’s harem intrigues. In this life, she just wants to keep her head down but her life gets derailed anyway. She gets sold away and eventually made a servant in the household of an exiled prince who takes a fancy to her and she endures it because what choice does she have? All she wanted was to serve out her term and become a small time merchant. This is quite realistic about lack of options for women, especially lower class women or upper class male attitudes (ML is never vicious or mean to FL but it does not initially occur to him to wonder if she fancies him or enjoys being his concubine or w/e.) It is a DELIGHTFUL slow burn tho as they grow to love each other and grow together and become one of the most wholesome cnovel couples out there.

Dandere General and His Lord - hi there, Gong Xinwen! God, I love this one. Heroine transmigrates from modern world into a brutal slave-holding world at war (think something like Warring States era.) Our heroine transmigrates into the body of a noblewoman who just hung herself. When she comes to, she discovers that woman’s twin brother was the ruler of a city poisoned by a rival claimant and the besieging army of said claimant is about to take the city and original occupant of the body and the rest of the family chose suicide as a way to avoid dishonor. Our heroine refuses, schemes with advisors to pass as the brother and rally the troops. Once the invaders are defeated, she keeps on the masquerade and rides off to one of the never-ending wars “she” is summoned to. Our hero couldn’t be farther from this. A slave and a son of a slave, he’s escaped a horrific, starving childhood during which he narrowly avoided being murdered or raped, and ended up in the army. When the story opens, he distinguished himself in battle and as a reward, he and a few of his fellow slave warriors are invited to a banquet, where they are given some alcohol and to be playthings of any nobles who want them. One of them does not survive this but ML is lucky - heroine feels terrible and so “claims” him for herself. Instead she just tends to his wounds and sends him back. She does not fancy him or anything, she is just a human being with a conscience. And the story goes from there.

Demon King's Repayment - another delicious Gong Xinwen tale with a powerful ML dedicated to capable FL. This one is a great fantasy plot (I keep imagining it as an animated series) and a sprawling cast of amazing secondaries (and secondary OTPs - there is, I swear, an OTP that is Dong Hua x Feng Jiu done thru GXW lens) to boot.

Doomed to Be Cannon Fodder - I hesitated to put this one on the list because by the end I was not keen on how misogynistic novel got to original female lead but it was one of my earliest novels and I loved it for 90% and it’s fucking hilarious at times. Heroine transmigrates as bit villainess into a novel, all she wants is not to die, but her new attitude of “pls stay away” catches the attention of her terrifying general husband. Honestly, imo still worth it.

Dreamer in the Spring Boudoir - my n1 novel on this list, smart and fierce and don’t really read this for romance because it does not start until really late, but ice cold heroine x ice cold hero both of equal brains and ruthlessness is everything. I went from loathing the ML to finding him fascinating to adoring him (and yet he softened around the edges only for FL, he never became “nice”) and loved FL throughout; secondaries are epic. If you read only one non-danmei web novel, make it this one.

The Emperor’s Beloved Ugly Girl - my n2 novel on this list. Our heroine is the unlucky laundry maid A’Chou. She is a di daughter of an upperclass family but her family got destroyed in one of the political upheavals of the time and A’Chou, only a small child at the time, was the only survivor and was made an enslaved laundry maid. Due to various events, at the start of the novel she is a laundry maid in a minister’s household and the minister’s beloved daughter is having a fit because she’s supposed to marry the former Crown Prince which may have been great a few years back but Crown Prince had since been deposed, tortured, imprisoned and now is living in the middle of nowhere under conditions that are too meager to be called house arrest. And he’s seriously crippled too. Understandably, the young lady doesn’t want to marry him! She’d rather kill herself and so she does. And so, a desperate plan is hatched - why don’t we pretend the laundry maid is the di daughter of the minister’s household and send her off? And so A’Chu is sent as the bride. She arrives to discover a broke, seriously injured man on the verge of death…and we go from there. This is so gorgeous and tender and slow in just the right way and like AAAAAA! Secondary OTPs (one of which is MM) are also epic.

Futu Tower - the drama (Unchained Love) was a mess but the novel is such a lovely, dark exploration of coming back to life, for the ML from his dark revenge-strewn path and for heroine from not being allowed wishes of her own. She is a tribute bride, he’s a (fake) eunuch, they are both servants who use themselves to achieve goals and find peace and happiness together.

The Grand Princess - a tale where both members of the OTP reincarnate as their younger selves after killing each other in their 50s, and get a new start, this is smart and slow and so good in portraying old souls in young bodies. Their rediscovery of not just each other but themselves and their passion for living is just AAAAAA!

Heroine Saves Gentleman - Gong Xinwen novel so we have a tough martial artist lady saving a very upper class scholar and it goes from there. If elegant gorgeous ML being saved and protected (and lovingly dommed) by awesome FL is your bag, pls come right in.

Husband Be a Gentleman - schemer meet schemer. He’s an idle prince she’s perfect daughter, in reality both are wolves out for blood. Mmmm. Very OTP gets together early and is us against the world.

I’ll Be the Male Lead’s Sister in Law - one of my all time favorite novels. Heroine is made to marry a disabled nephew of the emperor. He used to be a victorious god of war but went mad and now is basically locked away and kept as a beast. GOD I LOVE THIS NOVEL SO MUCHHHHH! So much hurt/comfort and awesome OTP and after he eventually recovers, all he wants to do is to fight and murder things and dote on wifey. MMM. He’s honestly one of my fave MLs.

I Married a Disabled Tyrant After Transmigrating - if you have a Florence Nightingale complex, this is for you. Heroine wakes up as tribute bride to an almost dead dragon lord and slowly nurses him back to life as his rivals try to murder him. They are both utter adorable babies!

Let the Villain Go - another Gong Xinwen novel, this and Apocalypse Arrivals are AUs of each other. Heroine is surviving in the apocalypse, ML is the “bugbear” of the world but in reality just reacting to all abuse and torture and after she accidentally saves him, devotes himself. Fun fun fun!

Long Wind Crossing - Amazing ML and FL who grow together, clever plot, arranged marriage to love etc etc. Oh, and one point he feeds her his blood to keep her alive, what’s not to love? (Adapted into Chang Feng Du/Destined)

Lost You Forever - this is a short but delicately wistful tale of trauma and loss and love, wrapped in a high fantasy setting but so relatable despite it.

Love In Another Life: My Gentle Tyrant - so so fucked up in the best way! ML cannot live with OR without heroine. It opens on them banging in jail night before her execution (ordered by him) with corpses of men he killed for trying to defile her cooling nearby. If you want healthy relationships with respectful boundaries, gentle and considerate male leads who are modern men in period clothes, OP heroines who have everyone help them and are OP to the max, fluff and wholesomeness, that is about the worst book for you.If you want complexity, dysfunction, darkness, pain and an absolutely lyrical even if fucked up story, come right IN!!!!I am so fucking in love with the melancholy heroine, with ruthless psycho hero and the endless regret and devotion and paaaaain!

The Marquis Is Innocent - our heroine is a beautiful woman married to a warlord who hates her family. (Yes, this was gonna be The Prisoner of Beauty until SZE tax scandal.) Except she's a transmigrator from the future who knows how it ended last time around and has no interest to end up this tragically. This is in my top 5 - FL is smart but believably so (and doesn't have super battle powers) and ML is a believable period warlord. The way their relationship develops so gradually and the way his character changes so gradually as well (and the way they slowly fall in love, her slower than him) is just amazing. It is such a smart, nuanced, gorgeous slow burn. With some gonzo sex scenes :P

Mulberry Song - you like tragic endings? Come right IN! This is short and heartbreaking and wistful and very what-if.

Nightfall (Ever Night) - so long but also so smart and unusual and bloody and tho it’s not primarily a romance, you will never see another ML who loves his FL as much as Ning Que does his Sang Sang. 

Offering Salted Fish to Master - in some ways, this novel is a mess, but I am recommending it because this is a rare example of "nope he's 100% a villain and murderdude and odd, but he does love the heroine" that the author commits to.

Pihanjin - yet another awesome PLK novel, this is once again, like with Marquis, a ruthless man and a beautiful woman getting a second chance on a second go-around. FL is a lot more wounded this time around though. If you LOVE watching ML grovel and slowly, gradually win FL over, this one is for you.

Princess Agents - a dark tale with an incredibly competent and militarily powerful/ruthless heroine and two terrifying men who love her (but neither is as terrifying as she is.) There is an OTP switch halfway through that shockingly makes sense and it's just SO SO GOOOOOOOD

Rebirth of the Malicious Empress of Military Lineage - this is probably the one “typical��� novel on this list, heroine is reborn as her youngest self and gets revenge on those who wronged her last time around. It is really really well-written and heroine is competent, hero is doting and powerful etc. It’s not a trope I tend to love but I do when it’s done THIS well.

Rebirth of the Tyrant’s Pet: Regent Prince is Too Fierce: Borgias cnovel style! Our heroine was empress in last life and put her husband on the throne tho he did not love her. However, he had her executed and had his half-brother carry out the orders and heroine died horrifically. She opens her eyes and she’s a little girl again. The OTP this time around is heroine and half-brother executioner. Why do I love it? Heroine is smart and tough but also this is a rare rebirth novel where heroine does NOT decide to seek revenge for past life wrongs because they haven’t happened yet! In fact, she sees ML abused and stands up for him because he’s a kid and no kid should be mistreated and this go around he hasn’t done anything wrong. She also gets and likes her former life husband. Anyway, this is fakecest galore because she’s supposed to be their half-sister and while she knows (from past life) she is not, they do not and fall for her anyway. ML is especially gonzo, at one point carving chunks of his flesh to save her. He’s feral and unhinged and she’s the one person he worships because she protected him and like - it’s all awesome. (I love secondary ML too.)

Reborn to Love Lord Qiansui - yes, this is a eunuch novel! If you like gender tropes reversals, this one is for you. Heroine is a tough martial artist, hero is a smart as hell and powerful eunuch. A real eunuch. Heroine finds out she owes him her life and decides to protect him. This is a total delight and an awesome love story between two really scarred people. And yes, there is sex - heroine literally reads manuals on pegging :P

Return of the Swallow - so freaking long! But really good. Heroine is neither transmigrator nor reincarnator, just a smart period woman. She is a lost family daughter taken back in. Her father is a minister in a dying empire (father-daughter relationship is one of the best things in this novel), her OTP is enemy general, and the smartness and the awesomeness of this all knows no bounds.

Seven Unfortunate Lifetimes - probably the wackiest JLFX novel I read, this is quite different from Love You Seven Times drama that was adapted from it. Our deity protagonists go through a bunch of lives figuring out they fancy each other. It's light like a souffle but just as delicious.

To Be a Virtuous Wife - some people prefer 8 treasures trousseau but I never warmed up to that one. This one is so good, with smart people (who actually enjoy sex, a ratity) and a perfect mix of plot and romance.

Transmigrator Meets Reincarnator - my very first web novel. A lot lighter than a lot of the ones on this list but a total delight. Heroine transmigrates into a novel as the heroine; she has no interest in drama or chasing true love, she just wants to live a nice life with her nice husband. Too bad for her, her husband has reincarnated into his younger self and remembers how she betrayed him, so is not interested. This one is funny and light and romance doesn’t start till late on but a total delight!

Wishing You Eternal Happiness - this is tied with Dreamer as my favorite het web novel ever though it couldn’t be more different from Dreamer, with its hard-edged and hard-souled protagonists ruthlessly cleaving their way to the world and, eventually, each other, its smart cynical air. Except in one thing - the world of Wishing is just as bloody and dark. Its two protagonists are gentle, deeply wounded souls who may find salvation in each other but even something as basic as safety almost seems out of reach.

Jliafu, our heroine, is neither a modern-day transmigrator, nor some exotic princess or demoness. She is very much a period woman of her time, from a weathy merchant clan, whose beauty is her curse. You can tell the novel’s tone from that utterly bleak opening chapter where she, a favorite concubine of a capricious dying emperor, is ordered to be buried alive with him and is not even given the “grace” of white silk but slowly suffocates in the coffin, scrabbling at the lid. There is no grand threats of vengeance on her part, not dramatic opera events. Just despair and death. The whole introductory chapter is haunted by emotional ghosts - the empress’ unrequited love for the monster on the imperial bed (turning into desire for Jiafu’s suffering after he dies), the emperor slowly dying in his prime after waging too many wars, and his fear of being haunted by Pei Youan, a brilliant if sickly minister who died of illness long ago on one of imperial campaigns. There is no triumph for anyone, only loss.

When she wakes up as still a young woman, all she wants is to escape the same fate. There are no plans for power or revenge, only a desire for survival. And so she latches on asking for help from Pei Youan, the only man in her past go-around who showed any consideration and desire and ability to protect her, though he barely knew her. Pei Youan is probably my favorite het web novel ML. Despite his brains and ability, he drifts through life. In modern terms, he clearly has depression. One of the biggest, best joys of the novel is watching these two very good, very quiet, very wounded people discover happiness and love with each other. I sort of want to cry just thinking about it, tbh.

The Yandere Came During the Night - a bit of fluff that’s oddly delightful. Heroine is reborn as a (fake) sister of ML, she hurts her legs saving him and the “siblings” form a bond that ends up in fakecest delight. They are both smart and efficient and he becomes a sexy marquis etc.

[marshmallowwitharubberband]

Something that pops up at me in MXTX's stories is the duality of suffering from "can't have women thriving in my very gay sausage fest" syndrome (which is very prevalent in BL and some people categorize as internalized misogyny — something I don't wanna get into rn), but at the same time, a recurring but subtle (or maybe ignored) theme in her stories is portraying sex workers as people. All three of her novels feature prostitutes as background characters, but, for the most part, their portrayal isn't truly negative.

Shen Jiu preferred sleeping in brothels because he felt safer there, and it's treated as something tragic but ultimately harmless.

Jin Guangyao was reviled for being a prostitute's son, but this is clearly stated by the novel to be morally wrong and fueled by the nobles' prejudice and superficiality.

Wei Wuxian was a-ok with hanging out with or helping ghost sex workers and doesn't call any sort of attention to it. They're just regular ghosts to him.

Even Xie Lian's encounter with the brothel workers in Ghost Town doesn't paint them in a bad light, they're merely pushy like any other vendor of any other product would be.

Whatever their role or narrative purpose when they appear, they aren't portrayed like some symbol of corruption or evil, they're simply workers doing their job.

That's pretty neat.

[sun-and-moon-mushroom]

One of the reasons I have very little investment in Shen Jiu discourse is the fact that we just straight up just don’t know much about him? And most of what we do know comes from Shen ‘unreliable narrator’ Yuan, with only the extras to show us how he was outside of the narrow perspective of PIDW. Even with the fake manual thing, there are conflicting statements within canon over if that was Ming Fan or Shen Jiu. Most of the time, people don’t seem to be arguing over the actual character, but over their own conflicting interpretations of him, despite the fact that he’s so open to interpretation that you could easily write him your tragically misunderstood meow meow or an unrepentant villain, and neither would contradict canon all that much.

[endlessburningdarkness]

You know, in PIDW, Shen Jiu could very easily be turned into a martyr. I've always thought that Luo Bingge's empire was always doomed to fail, especially after decades of the world decaying and falling to ruin under his tyranny. That after decades of him doing whatever the hell he wanted, including taking women into his harem by force and committing atrocities because he was pissed, his subjects would grow to hate him. So, of course, he would become the villain, the scum, the lecher and backstabber, and a liar.

Imagine that after decades of it, someone unearthed transcripts of Shen Jiu's trial. They read it all and realize that there is no actual proof of anything and that he was convicted solely on heresy. That all his accuser were either Luo Binghe himself, in cahoots with him, or women who would go on to be the founders of his horrific harem. No actual proof and accusations were made by very biased parties with something to gain from Shen Jiu's conviction. Not to mention that anyone who could have either refuted or corroborated the accusations were all killed by Luo Binghe's orders.

People love both a tragic martyr and good conspiracy theories. Shen Jiu is no longer an irredeemable villain in the public eye, but a wrongfully convicted man who was targeted because he knew too much. Knew what LBH really was and could have stopped him and his plans.

Their roles are reversed, and in the end, Shen Jiu gets the last laugh.

This is a very nice idea, very cathartic, though I would say Shen Qingqiu got the last laugh the moment he died anyway because well, he gets to leave the shit world while LBH is stuck in it and will now never get his true desire: Shen Qingqiu's attention.

I can totally see all kind of crazy conspiracy theories popping up regarding Shen Qingqiu and if we buy that LBH is not actually happy with his expanding harem, and has many children, we can also argue that eventually the wives and kids get sick of his shit and kill him or imprison him and as part of that process, they attack his character by digging up what he actually did to Shen Qingqiu.

[lynnthefrenchtoast]

The Tragedy of Qijiu; Analysis

aka: reason why Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu make me ugly sob

1. the things left unsaid

the most poignant part of the novel for this ship is this line: "Too late. It was already too late! Shen Jiu was no longer here. He would never again be able to hear Yue Qingyuan’s words, never ever.”

and again, in the character notes: "He (sy) is no longer the intended recipient of this favor. Yue Qingyuan will have to find his own closure, as the person he looks for behind the new Shen Qingqiu’s eyes will no longer return.”

READ THAT SHIT. READ IT. ISNT IT TRAGIC???

ygy and sj spent their whole lives since they were little kids with unspoken words between them, longing glances, misunderstandings and hidden affections. you know who else does that? THE MAIN COUPLE OF SCUMS VILLAIN: luo binghe and shen yuan.


EXCEPT

we get to watch them fix their misunderstanding. we get to watch binghe realize he was never hated for his heritage. we get to watch shen yuan realize he is saved from retribution for sins he never committed. this is a privilege qijiu never gets.

the worst part? they almost get it.

because yue qingyuan does, in (what he believes are) his final moments, try to communicate. it's the beautiful cliche "im dying so ill tell you everything" except its not beautiful because the person he needs to tell is GONE. he was gone the whole time and YUE QINGYUAN DOESNT EVEN KNOW:

2. YUE QINGYUAN'S SOULMATE IS DEAD AND HE DOESNT KNOW

is that not like INSANE???

like yeah, the person you love dying is tragic. but its even more tragic that they were so distant he cannot even tell shen jiu and shen yuan apart. he will never know his beloved is gone from the world; he is not even awarded the privilege to mourn

and he can NEVER know. sy is literally prohibited by the system from telling him. so happens is:

3. YUE QINGYUAN MUST FALSELY BELIEVE HIS SOULMATE REJECTED HIM FOR ANOTHER GUY

+

4. yue qingyuan fails shen jiu at each and every opportunity

can you IMAGINE? he got into cultivation to save his xiao jiu from the qiu manor. he failed. he became the leader of the sect to be a man shen jiu could one day respect. shen never respects him (even shen yuan canonically is like "dude wtf? this is the sect leader; shen jiu treats him so disrespectfullt?") . yue qingyuan tries to protect shen jiu from luo binghe - fails. tried to save him after receiving his two legs in the mail but failed and died trying. tries to save shen yuan - shows up too late and shen yuan gets poisoned without a cure. tries to take on debt for shen yuan - shen yuan wins the spirit stones. tries to fight mobei jun - fails and shen jiu falls into depression because he lost binghe due to his failure. tried to lock up a heavenly demon - succeeded! but that ultimately led to the birth of the even stronger heavenly demon who goes on to torture his beloved for a decade.

yue qingyuan is a man in power without the power to succeed at the one thing he needs to.

conversely, shen jiu, a little slave with no name or power changed his live. when yqy needed him, shen jiu selflessly stepped in danger's way and saved him successfully. yqy never repays his debt even though he tries so hard.

and then his xiao jiu falls in love with the young demon boy who wreaks havoc and kidnaps him and kinda treats him like shit. he fails at earning shen jiu's love too.

5. yue qingyuan never finds out that shen jiu loved him.

shen yuan likely believed yue qingyuan abhorred him. what shen yuan feels for yue qingyuan is likely a mix of "you betrayed me so i must hate you + you hate me so in return i must hate you. but in reality if you were to look close i dont hate you at all. but ill act like i do because i must hate you."

yue qingyuan though? there was no question. his feelings for shen jiu were always love and shen jiu will never know that, so there will never be a chance for shen jiu to change his mind, to not think "you do not hate me so i do not have to hate you, you love me so i can love you"

this kinda ties into the "words left unsaid" point EXCEPT at least shen jiu gets one time where he finds out how yqy feels. yqy never ever in any universe finds out. he thinks shen jiu is determined to never call him qi-ge again.

6. but even when shen jiu gets to find out yue qingyuan loves him, it is the most tragic way of doing so

i want you to imagine:

you love this person. you trusted them and they betrayed you. you hate that they make you feel weak so you place distance between you two. they look down on you so you respond in turn, with harsh words and harsher actions.

and then they die a horrific death- stabbed by ten thousand arrows- to come save you.

you realize they never meant to betray you, never looked down on you.

you were so mean and distant for nothing.

you cannot say sorry. they are dead. it is your fault.

shen jiu so eagerly wrote that letter to yqy, not because he wanted to escape torture but because he was so confident yqy wouldnt come.

he didnt come last time, so why did he come now!?

EXTRA

they are the epitome of the childhood friends to lovers & "i loved you all along" trope. they have seen each other in every stage of their loves and still, in their convoluted way, loved each other even with all the tension between them

golden retriever x black cat

yue qingyuan totally spoils shen qingqiu. if he tolerates that level of disrespect? yk damn well qing jing peak is never short of funding

shen jiu really is in desperate need of being loved. he like, is a character that claims he doesnt care to be liked but we all know its human nature to want to be appreciated and loved. "i dont need you to love me" "i love you" "oh"

the potential for a: "i dont need your pity" "its not pity i just care about you" or a "why do you even care?" "because i love you" or a (as catra and adora say) "i know you all hate me!" "i never hated you" dialogue drop

the potential for a deku -> izuku moment. i mean yue qingyuan literally canonically foreshadows it: "are you so determined to never call me qi-ge again?"

misunderstood x "i see past your mask" (ive written more about this dynamic in my lynaether post tumblr wont let me link but the in summary: blablabla human desire to be understood and human tendency to self sabotage and hide your flaws yada yada "i hold the ugliest parts of you up to the lie and dont even flinch")

FEEL FREE TO ADD UR EXTRA BULLET POINTS IN THE COMMENTS

[shizunitis]

Luo Binghe & Tianlang-Jun: Origins. And a Bit of Projection.

Disclaimer: This is basically just a collection of quotes from The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System, Volume 3, accompanied by (adjective) thoughts, and then even more relevant quotes listed at the end. If I could, I’d paste the entirety of Chapter 18.

“As expected, I can’t bring myself to hate humans.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 21: Always Together

I will always be conflicted on the topic of Tianlang-jun, and it annoys me. There is so much I could say about him, and so little I can successfully articulate. He is, to me, more confounding, complex and tragic than Shen Jiu.

He’s pitiful and awe-inspiring, wicked and affable, cunning and wide-eyed in his curiousity. He is a compelling, heartbreaking character. He alternates between emotionless wisdom and mournful apathy. I admire how his knees don’t buckle under the weight of his grief, but how he crumbles at the barest hint of hope. How rage claws at him and, still, he can’t figure out how to make it stick.

I empathise with him. I understand him.

But then, in the distance, Luo Binghe's indifferent voice disturbs the silence, causing me to drop my drink onto the floor and this post onto your screen:

“He’s not my father.”

It’s an interesting exercise, exploring their relationship in reconciliation fics. To see them interact (semi-)honestly, watch them take turns filling up the chasm between them. It’s wonderful. Every fic I’ve read centred around them was a delightful read that I still think about.

However. I cannot see Tianlang-Jun, as I understand him, as Luo Binghe’s father. And not just because of the 3rd Novel’s events.

But because Binghe had hoped for something; he did have that wide-eyed wonder. He did hold one last window open, for the sake of an improbability he couldn’t quite, just yet, dismiss.

It’s what (most) orphaned and/or adopted childred do.

Though Luo Binghe had never said a word about it before, Shen Qingqiu knew that he harbored some fantasies about his birth parents. […] In fact, he’d always secretly fantasized about whether his parents might still be alive, and how well they’d treat him, and how they’d never let him suffer the mildest slight. — Vol. 3, Chapter 17: Tianlang

It is the most human thing; to want to be helped, accepted, invited by those given to you. A family is given to you. Whether you believe it an act of the divine, of nature, of coincidence, it isn’t something you fight for. It’s the first and, arguably, only thing you don’t have to fight for in life.

Depending on a multitude of factors, that can be a blessing or a curse; but where there is room for interpretation, questions left unanswered, most childred—Binghe included—will turn to their imagination, and try to make sense of it. Usually, to comfort themselves, to reassure themselves that surely, if their family could, they would have.

And, yeah. Most likely, if the Palace Master had gotten punted into the Sun like he fucking deserved, they would have. But does it matter?

In the face of a bleak reality, what comfort is a could-have-been?

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. […] Luo Binghe was in fact…someone who was unloved by even his own parents. — Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

What use are good intentions to an abandoned child? What consolation is it, to say, They gave birth to you, when that child has seen no evidence of their care? Does it dry their tears, that their mother can’t be here, but she surely would have wished to be? That their father would protect them, if only he knew of them?

(And don’t make me tell you about the visceral horror I felt reading the Origins chapter. I’ve yet to make my peace with it. MXTX, Airplane, whoever: you’ve ruined me.)

The washerwoman was and continues to be, to Binghe, his only mother. And I would argue, that’s healthy. Even independent of his other traumas (Abyss, Shizun’s betrayal, Xin Mo’s influence, living on the streets, etc, holy shit Binghe) Luo Binghe will not accept anyone else as his mother.

“Who is this Su Xiyan?” Luo Binghe asked coldly. “My mother was a mere washerwoman.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 18: Origins.

It may seem callous. It probably even is! But it is a healthy line he’d drawn by his own initiative. It’s what helps him, what he feels he needs to do in order to do right by his mother, and his own heart.

And! Tianlang-Jun doesn’t seem to give much of a shit, either!

Won’t, probably, even in the future, once the dust will have settled. He is exhausted, weary with carrying the corpse of his love, the loss of his nephew. Whatever goodwill he shows, it’s a perfunctory sort, because he can’t afford more.

So. Uhh.

Tianlang-Jun is not a character I can love, nor one I can hate. Usually, I can’t help but be inclined to love complex characters. Like them, too—though that’s more of an action-based thing rather than just said character’s personality.

But with Tianlang-Jun, I’m stuck whichever way I turn. If I want to love/like him, I’m drawn back by Binghe’s pain and disappointment. If I try to hate/dislike him, I’m drawn back by his own history and grief.

In conclusion:

I don't know! I'm not really trying to, like, prove anything. I still love the aforementioned TLJ & LBH fics, I still love their dynamic. I started walking and ended up exactly in the same space. This, perhaps, could be considered a Heavenly Demon Family Mobius Strip!

I'm not really trying to say anything. It just… makes me feel conflicted, and angry, and whenever I allow myself to think about it a bit more, sad.

But.

However!

Alas.

Nonetheless, even.

As a reader and—on my better days—a writer, all I can say is:

As promised/threatened: some selected passages, for your reading pleasure:

So, it looked like neither the father nor the cousin had any intention of acknowledging Luo Binghe. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

Tianlang-Jun lifted his hand, took a look at Luo Binghe’s snow-pale face, and commented indifferently, “He looks like his mother.” “His eyes look like yours,” came a chill voice from the side. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

The faint hopes and dreams Luo Binghe had held in his heart for many years had been mercilessly pulverized into so much dust. […] [Tianlang-Jun] refused to speak a single word of their relationship and had been utterly ruthless back in the Holy Mausoleum. […] To his parents, Luo Binghe was an unwanted child. — Chapter 18: Origins

“If he was my father, why didn’t he bring it up earlier? Why not tell me?” The most Tianlang-Jun had said was that single line he offered while beating up Luo Binghe, devoid of either praise or criticism: “He looks like his mother.” He looks like his mother. What of it? But that was all. There was nothing more. — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe was indifferent. “He’s not my father.” […] Luo Binghe shook his head. It was unclear what he was stubbornly clinging to, but he repeated, “He’s not my father.” — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe raised his smiling face, his eyes shining brightly. “Mother was the kindest person in all the world to me.” — Chapter 19: Shen Jiu

[irrealisms]

svsss and sexual violence pt. 5: we live in a society

standard disclaimer at the beginning: i am not saying that this is the Only thing svsss is about, or that other readings are invalid; i am not intending to character-bash most of the characters here (while i will freely admit to thinking e.g. old palace master or qiu jianluo are pretty one-dimensionally shitty, lots--probably most--of the characters in this series who i mention as perpetrating SA are characters who do have depths & who i in fact like a lot! despite this meta, or perhaps because of it, my second-favorite character is luo binghe, and i am in fact a bingqiu shipper!); and, obviously, huge fucking CW for sexual abuse and adjacent topics. this section is about 1.5k words.

TABLE OF CONTENTS pt 1: shen yuan's realization of himself as a target pt 2: gender and homophobia pt 3: non-bingqiu sexual violence pt 4: shen qingqiu's body pt 5: we live in a society (you are here)

something that's universal across all three of mxtx's books is that society allows for & often approves of abuse, that invisibilized abuse of people with less power from people with more power is the bedrock society stands on; that even when society claims to disapprove of abuse, this is a smokescreen at best for attacking what (and who) it actually disapproves of. svsss...is not an exception to this. a lot of the incidents i'm about to discuss are ones i've already mentioned earlier in the series, but here i'm less interested in the specific incidents and more interested in the ways that society implicitly approves. a lot of these are sexual abuse but some of these are in fact nonsexual abuse because "society dgaf about abuse" applies fairly equally to all types of abuse in svsss.

the first and obvious example here is Shen Jiu. society, both in the universe of PIDW/SVSSS and in the ~frame story of the audience reaction to PIDW, objects to a 14-year-old slave breaking the engagement vows he made to a girl from the family that owns him so harshly they would throw him in prison/torture him (within the universe of the story) or demand for him to be castrated (in the comments section of said story). no one objects to the fact that slavery exists, or that Shen Jiu was abused; while it is ambiguous whether he was sexually abused (although I think there's strong evidence for it, as discussed in parts 3 + 4), society would not care if he had been; within PIDW universe, that's Qiu Jianluo's right, to do what he wants with his property, and within the universe where PIDW exists as a novel it would be hated as a storytelling decision the way all of Airplane's attempts at making Shen Jiu sympathetic were hated (because PIDW fandom didn't want complex villains with tragic backstories, they wanted someone they could uncomplicatedly hate).

the second example is also Shen Jiu, but the other way around--while he didn't sexually abuse Luo Binghe, nor was his abuse of LBH presented as particularly sexualized in any way (and if you've read this meta you know i am not shy about seeing technically nonsexual violence as sexualized/referencing sexual abuse in this book :P), it's another good example of how society allows for abuse? SQQ was in a position of power over LBH, so... he just gets to do whatever he wants to LBH. LBH can get revenge as an adult with a lot more power, can leverage that power & the ways SJ is vulnerable, can make it so that torturing and abusing him back is also allowed by society's rules--but when he is a kid without that power? society doesn't care! this is obviously less true on a "what did PIDW fandom care about" level than the other examples, but it's still true enough in-PIDW-universe that imho it counts!

the third example is the water prison. once again, Luo Binghe does not rape Shen Qingqiu in the water prison (although there was some very sexualized violence, shading into sexual assault). but-- SQQ was put in the water prison to be tortured at LBH's whims. if LBH had wanted to rape SQQ in there? he could have. with the material support of society. if Gongyi Xiao had been right that LBH raped SQQ there, GYX would still be disobeying his master to show SQQ kindness and break him out, and he would still end up just as killed for it. in the eyes of society, trying to help a prisoner escape the person who is raping them is worse than raping a prisoner. (identifying obviously identical problems with the prison system in the real world is left as an exercise to the reader.)

the fourth example is the old palace master. i talked about him some in part 3, but two things i want to highlight: - given that he was able to groom and abuse at least two generations, he's been doing this for a long time, and either no one noticed (even though it is obvious enough that sqq notices within a few lines of talking to him, implying that no one cared enough to look) or people did notice and, for whatever reason (some of which are even very sympathetic--certainly if i were his disciple and was mostly getting away with Not Being Abused i wouldn't want to come to his attention! but some of which are, uh, much less sympathetic) they let him, the same way people must have known about shen jiu's treatment of luo binghe and let him. because he's a powerful man, because it's his disciples and he has the authority, because, because, because. either way, this.... does not speak to a society that cares about sexual abuse. - when society learns about su xiyan's history, they blame her. they blame her for getting with tianlang-jun, they blame her for not aborting luo binghe, they assume she left her sect because she was ashamed and not because her sect hurt her. tianlang-jun is demonized (heh) even though his relationship with her was entirely consensual, because society hates him; old palace master is assumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing, because society likes him. do things eventually get figured out? yes. but the immediate reaction here is ... well, it's relevant.

last example here is moshang. again, not sexual/sexualized abuse! but through shang qinghua we get a piece of insight into demon society, rather than just human society, and what we get is... very very normalized physical abuse. shang qinghua is often going around with bruises from mobei-jun, to the point where shen qingqiu notices and is used to it. compare these two quotes, the first spoken by SQH to mobei-jun and the second from SQQ's narration:

“No one likes getting beat up every day, and no one would actually be all cheery after getting beat up every day! I’m not actually a dog! Even with a dog, if you kicked it twice a day, given enough time, it’d learn not to bother with you anymore!”

&

There was no telling what Shang Qinghua had done to piss off Mobei-Jun this time, but the corner of his lip was swelling as he gave Shen Qingqiu a pathetic smile. Shen Qingqiu couldn’t bear to look, so he shifted his gaze back to the file.

and.... the thing is, mobei-jun doesn't want to hurt sqh? when sqh gives him advice on how to woo men, he takes it; he pats sqh on the head instead of beating him, he gets sqh a cart when he's injured, he offers to let sqh hit him back. but the frequent beating is just...how demon society works, esp around the sort of power dynamic that sqh and mbj have. it's normal. and, given the demons we see, i don't actually think this is a fundamental difference of demon psychology. the demons we see who are person-y enough to Have Society are, broadly speaking...basically human? i think this is just... demon society is fine with it, because society is fine with all sorts of abuse as long as it's normal. and as we've seen in this post, it's not like human society is, uh, different in this regard.

the last thing i have to say isn't really a direct example. it's a little aside from shen yuan's internal monologue when talking to tianlang-jun about the plan to merge the realms:

The last part even sounded like rape culture logic: if you violate a person often enough, they’ll cooperate eventually; so do it first and think about the rest later.

which-- honestly i wouldn't have even thought to make that connection! but it was made for me by the book! and this is in a paragraph talking about how tianlang-jun thinks like this because he was mistreated and trapped under bai lu mountain, that he's bitter and resentful because of it, and it draws a neat little bow with our first example--shen jiu. the way that this is one way that rape & abuse culture perpetuate: someone is mistreated. they learn that this is how the world is; they pass it on. the cycle of abuse (and the breaking or attempted breaking of it) is another theme mxtx returns to over and over, in all three books, and you see that highlighted here. there's probably more to say here about TLJ's overall arc but i've worked on this meta for a long time and it is getting Really Quite Late.

if you've read all the meta (or even just this one): thanks for sticking with me through this! i really hope it was interesting & you got something out of it. i wrote. SO much in one day.

[fuckedupwizard]

someone: it's such a disservice to shen jiu's character to defang him and act like he isn't really a child abuser, or the abuse wasn't that bad, or he didn't know what he was doing, and to take away the bitterness and resentment that is a huge part of his personality. him being kind of twisted is exactly what makes him fascinating. his suffering was utterly tragic but he should not have perpetrated it onto another.

me: YES! EXACTLY! THANK YOU

someone: that's why i wish people who like him could just admit that he sucks, and he's totally pure irredeemable scum with no good qualities, and his character is NOT deep or complex. he didn't even really care about yue qingyuan, he was too selfish for that, he just wanted him for protection and when that failed to guilt him for the rest of their lives. and no universe would change this, he probably kicks puppies for fun, and

me: ok hold on now. shut up?

[zykamiliah]

My fucking confession to that fucking blog I won't waste my time submitting bc really what's even the point of talking to someone who doesn't want to open their minds and understand is that y'all came out of reading and experiencing svsss not having learnt anything.

When written within the bounds of the original genre, this kind of character was extremely difficult to handle. You could say he was scum, but he was also pitiful. But if you tried to acknowledge his pathos, his ruthlessness was real too. Characters that were both scummy and tragic always drew aggro, and they were a hotbed for wank, leading comments sections to devolve into massive flame wars. Better to hack him down into a formulaic asshole and let the protagonist step on him. Easier to write, and the readers would find it satisfying as well. (Chapter 19: Shen Jiu)

this is why writers can't write complex villains, bc you all with your moral purity takes can't handle it. bravo, you've proved mxtx right.

some of you get soooooo twisted trying to defend SJ you flatten his character and make him into a parody of himself.

some of you are so wrapped in the pity contest of "who suffered the most" to determine who has the moral highground that you don't get that you can't pit a character's pain against another character's pain. abuse is abuse is abuse. QJL was abusive for three years, SJ killed him. SJ was abusive for aprox. 5-7 years, Bingge tortured him AND killed him. And killed everyone associated to him. Somewhere down the line, I bet that in real PIDW verse someone will try to take out Bingge for all the suffering he caused. the point is that they BOTH did SHITTY THINGS, they were BOTH abusive because they DIDN'T RECEIVE ANY LOVE IN THEIR LIVES after they were abandoned. both shen jiu and bingge are scummy and tragic. BOTH OF THEM. and because of the abuse and trauma they suffered, they both had awful coping mechanisms that entailed taking out their pain on people who didn't deserve it.

and that's the whole fucking point!!! they're deliciously complex characters. they were born from the fucked-up union between the cycle of abuse and toxic masculinity. they are simultaneously constructions and deconstructions of the Villain Character. they are profoundly human as well, because they showcase the darkness of the human experience, what happens when a person transforms their pain into a weapon to hurt others.

and y'all are arguing over who is innocent? get out.

[saintone]

i've been thinking that one of the most tragical things about pidw is that it was going to end the way it ended no matter what

like, let's pretend shen jiu didn't exist for a moment.

luo binghe was a poor kid in a peak filled with nobles. even if he got into qing jing, or was smart enough to fight his way into bai zhan, he wouldn't have been satisfied.

luo binghe was said to be a white lotus, that is a white, innocent flower from the outside but his roots are filled with dirt. he was a demon, and even in svsss, being bingmei, he is obsessive, authoritarian and selfish sometimes.

even without shen jiu, luo binghe would have been bullied in speak for being a commoner, and the youngest shidi so his older martian sibling had the right to make his work harder. and even if he wasn't, his obssesive, ruthless side would have him left wanting for more, to be recognized, to be respected, to be powerful.

an important thing about pidw is that lbh was a demon, and demons take revenge tenfold bc they hold grundges.

i think that even if sj wasn't his shizun, lbg would have razed cang qiong for not giving him the recognition he thought he deserved, or for being thrown at the abyss bc he would have been murdered (or attempted to) either way once it was discovered he was a demon.

like in many ways, other cultivators weren't much better than when qingqiu (exhibit a: picking old palace master), and his values and traditions weren't that much righteous and better either. the laws were designed to defend themselves and that's it.

and this doesn't eliminate the fact that shen qingqiu truly went out of his was to make luo binghe's life a living hell. like yeah lbg would have been bullied, but sqq quite literally tortured him.

but it's kinda sad that luo binghe was going to be mistreated either way, bc as he himself says it life was unfair to someone like him, poor, orphan and half demon, abandoned by his own mother.

just like life was unfair to shen jiu.

and so the two characters that had the worst chances overall ended up destroying each other with all their might, and kinda destroying the world in that process.

like they could've been their saviours but they chose to be their doom.

[qeireinier]

I think what Original Luo Binghe did to Shen Jiu parallels what happened between Wei Wuxian and Wen Chao. Let me yap.

Look this might sound stupid to you but I just rewatched MDZS and I JUST saw some similarities with PIDW. After coming out of the Burial Mounds, WWX literally tortured WC before his death. The Burial Mounds is a place of literal torture and WWX went through HELL in it without his golden core. Because of what? Because of WC, he's the one who threw him into there.

It's an eye for an eye. WWX must've gotten his organs rearranged, bones crushed by constant attacks from walking corpses, eaten corpse fingers to survive, and many other horrors MXTX didn't mention. So WC SHOULD feel all of that, as payment for his sins to WWX and all other people he inflicted.

With LBG and SJ, the Endless Abyss is almost no different than Burial Mounds except it's festered with demonic instead of resentful energy (I think they're not really the same type?) and various types of beasts iirc. So even with his golden core, it's still harder for LBH because he barely knew how to avoid or fight them, where their weak spots are, etc. And instead of 3 months, it's 5 YEARS so it's enough time for his hatred for SJ to fester like a fairytale witch's soup. In the very beginning, he must've also gone through hell. Maybe the beasts ripped his limbs apart, stabbed his eyes, pulled his tongue out and only because of his Heavenly Demon blood that he recovered himself back (probably). It's very different from running away from resentful corpses because you KNOW just how to fight them off, even though it's just impossible for their number.

So, seeing LBH making SJ into a human stick doesn't surprise me too much. It's the case of an eye for an eye. No, it's still wrong, I'm not justifying it. I'm just making my analysis. THAT'S why it reminds me so much of WC's death.

Even both of the MCs have a demonic object in their hands, the Stygian Tiger Seal and Xin Mo. Both are untamable and capable of driving their holders insane. What differs our MC however—is that WWX has things to lose, and that's why he's often shown to be holding himself back from a killing spree. Hell, he's even the actual most righteous character in the novel.

While LBH doesn't have anything left to lose. He doesn't have a family, friends, all these wives and servants probably don't mean much on him. Also, his demon blood affects his mindset, giving his brain more "predatory instincts" as I'm gonna call it. Added with the fact that he spent more time in the Endless Abyss and how his mind had been corrupted by Xin Mo, LBH would pull a "No More Mr. Nice Guy, Heh >:)". That makes him not so kind as to give SJ the mercy of death. He probably wanted to keep SJ alive for 5 years or maybe forever til his brain finally decides "yep, that's it, go die or whatever idc anymore". Yeah, until BingggeMei extra happened and we could probably assume SJ's death is never gonna happen, but that's for another story nevermind.

However, it does mean that the latter won't hold himself back. The point where he crosses the line is when he burns down the CQMS, kills the Peak Lords, and even went so far as to merge the demonic and mortal realms. That's what differs him from WWX, so much. It's literally canonically said that he's not the nice kind of protag.

SO in conclusion—when I see people talking about how "SJ didn't deserve all that", I'm between agreeing and disagreeing. What LBG did to SJ is terribly inhumane, but that's to be expected from a demon emperor like him. Hey I'm a SJ stan, it doesn't mean my views are completely biased. Especially considering what LBG possibly went through in the Endless Abyss for five years as a mere disciple without a sword like Xuan Su.

I think this is why PIDW readers rooted for LBG, because the story was from his POV. Tragic MC, thrown into the pits of hell by his cruel master. Our perspective is widened through reading SV and we can see the tragic POV of SJ and so we start to root for him too. No, it doesn't mean that either of these 2 are completely right in their choices, the both of them are very flawed and they're trapped in this cycle of abuse, very harmful to the surroundings. We can't fully fault or justify them. Yes, they need therapists, perchance one hidden behind a very powerful barrier in case any of them decides to attack the poor therapist.

But this realization—the parallels between LBG&SJ and WWX&WC—just kind of amazes me. Okay, ted talk ends, thank you for surviving through, if you don't have any nice words to say please scroll away :(

[ineffectualdemon]

When written within the bounds of the original genre, this kind of character was extremely difficult to handle. You could say he was scum, but he was also pitiful. But if you tried to acknowledge his pathos, his ruthlessness was real too. Characters that were both scummy and tragic always drew aggro, and they were hotbed for wank, leading the comments sections to devolve into massive flame wars. Better to hack him down into a formulaic asshole and let the protagonist step on him. Easier to write, and the readers would find it satisfying as well.

SVSSS Vol 3 p 226

Me looking at the MXTX fandom:

No but seriously, we get this very blunt breakdown of Shen Jiu

Like this could not be more fourth wall breaking, in your face, obvious

And people within the fandom still make Shen Jiu one dimensional

And Jin Guangyao

and Xue Yang

Not to mention other side characters like Jiang Cheng

This is a biting commentary about us the readers and people still don't get it

It's almost like there's Shen Qingqiu level of mental gymnastics at play here

[winktalks-com]

I finished svsss

I quite liked it. I didn't cry as i expected but i did feel extremely bad at some scenes to the point that i get teary when i think of them

But while reading I was very unbothered

I have a few points to make

Luo Binghe is an interesting character and he's so well written. All of them are really well written i have no complaints about that. Sadly even if I enjoyed his character i didn't get very attached to him. Both Luo Binghe And Shen Qingqiu have some issues and they misunderstand each other so much! Reading tgcf changed me- XL and HC are so understanding with each other and then we have these two.

Really a 180° from the "even if you must keep secrets from me I understand" couple to the "I don't trust you because im pretty sure you hate me" couple.

My favourite character that didn't even appear except for flashbacks was Shen Jiu. I wish there was more of him i love characters who are sad and bitter and jealous and mean. I'd say I have an "I can fix him mentality" but its really more of an "I want him as he is" one.

And he was always on my mind while reading cause Shen Yuan really came and took over just like that and we aren't told what happened to my man. And if he saw what was happening to his body he'd be horrified too.

Wahhh and the relationship he had with Liu Qingge! I actually don't remember them interacting more than once? And its Liu Qingge reminding him he didn't get to start cultivation at the age he was supposedly to (so mean!!). I really wish they had the chance to make up. Do i ship them?? Idk possibly but i mainly just want them to get along.

Not only his relationship with Liu Qingge but also Yue Qingyuan! I know what happened between them but i don't think it was from the main story? I believe i saw some posts about it since I don't remember much being said of them in the actual book other that Yue Qingyuan seems to favour him. Perhaps it's in one of the extras. They're so sad anyway! Yue Qingyuan is so understanding and good to Shen Jiu! Obviously its partly cause he feels bad but did he really even have the chance to save Shen Jiu? Im sure he would have if he really had the means.

Idk if you can tell I go crazy for tragic bitter-sweet character relationships...

What im realising is that i really just wanted a book from the perspective of Shen Jiu (T°T)

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

hi, what are ur thoughts on SY!SQQ? do you dis/like him? do you think he “stole” SJ’s body?

Lol stole SJ's body.

No, I don't think he stole anything as "Shen Jiu" ceased to exist as an entity for the story the system wanted to fix. Shen Yuan was the change it needed as well as the other characters to have their fate changed. Shen Yuan is still the technical villain of the work, but that is not out of maliciousness as Shen Jiu, but situational mistakes made by him and misunderstanding that he himself has already altered the world's path.

Shen Yuan was the needed factor to right what even Shen Qingqua acknowledged as regrets over and turning it for the better. Shen Jiu regardless in Shen Qinghua's story would have never changed, regardless of what backstory he had untold and was revealed to Shen Qingqui. His past wasn't told for the reader's to think better of Shen Jiu, but for Shen Qingiu to realize he is not Shen Jiu or obligated to be, for the system or anyone. Shen Yuan has a lot of sympathy but is horribly dense to emotional empathy to others and time and again needs to have it shoved in his face that there are options to choose from that no longer keep hurting Luo Binghe as Shen Jiu had. It takes far longer than it should have to come to this realization as he finally acknowledges.

I will use this as an excuse to use another thought piece I've been poking at to add on as an addition. Due to Shen Yuan's awkward and low empathy processing and what that means that he is a villain antagonist that overcomes that trope:

Exactly what was this System? What was the point of its existence? So he could know exactly how unfortunate these people were? So he could personally witness the most tragic ways the world could screw people over?

Or so he could drive Luo Binghe to insanity?

Everyone said Luo Binghe had gone mad. Even he himself had smiled and admitted it. Xin Mo, which Luo Binghe had finally managed to suppress after a million words of struggle in the original work, had gained the upper hand in this struggle and invaded Luo Binghe’s mind.

This wasn’t a result of one or two events, but a slow accumulation over time, until finally it had completely erupted. Numerous signs had long since made themselves apparent,

but Shen Qingqiu had never noticed.

Or perhaps he should say that he’d never realized that Luo Binghe was actually so insecure, to the point of having an inferiority complex.

First, he’d thought Luo Binghe was unbelievably cruel and evil, then he’d thought Luo Binghe was unspeakably strong and bright. Looking back, the symptoms of Xin Mo’s invasion of Luo Binghe’s mind had appeared as early as Zhao Hua Monastery.

When Luo Binghe heard his backstory, he’d received a massive shock. In his moment of greatest panic, he reached out to Shen Qingqiu, pleading for his shizun to leave with him.

But Shen Qingqiu hadn’t taken Luo Binghe’s hand and instead had made Luo Binghe leave alone first. At that time, Luo Binghe’s psyche started to grow incredibly unstable. What he’d needed wasn’t a path of safe retreat, but to be together with Shen Qingqiu.

Even if he was trapped in Zhao Hua Monastery and unable to retreat, even if he was surrounded and attacked by everyone present—either outcome was better than leaving alone!

To a Luo Binghe in that state of mind, having to leave alone was as good as being "thrown away”—like he had been when Su Xiyan willingly drank that poison.

It was exactly as Luo Binghe himself had said. He wasn’t forcing Shen Qingqiu to choose between two options because he was completely certain he knew the answer, down to his very bones: that Shen Qingqiu would one day abandon him.

His entire mind had flooded with terror of and anxiety from speculating over something yet to happen. How could he not go completely insane?

Shen Qingqiu is not a mirror for Shen Jiu, he is one for Yue Qingyuan. As Luo Binghe in the changed plot is a mirror of Shen Jiu. Like Qingyuan Shen Qinqiu was unable to see what a perceived constant abandonment can do to a person's mind, especially with the "promise", that they would be there, they would make sure nothing would ever hurt them again, while being the catalysts of that continued hurt without acknowledgment. Yue Qingyuan expresses deep regret for just not simply being able to reveal to Shen Jiu what happened to him as well that caused him not to come back, desperately wanting to. Siblingship and what he felt for She Jiu was no less in yearning and love than the romantic adoration that Shen Qingqui had for Luo Binghe.

Shen Jiu:

Some time passed, then Shen Jiu sighed. “Qi-ge, you really gotta be less impulsive in the future. You mess up every single time. This time I was the unlucky one, but if you’re still like this in the future after joining those immortal sects, what are you gonna do? You gotta keep calm!”

He was lecturing someone older than him, and at such a tender age too. It was somehow comical. Yet the other youth didn’t seem the slightest bit unhappy. Instead he said earnestly, “I’ll remember.”

Now that he had hope, Shen Jiu’s voice became fervent. “You absolutely have to remember the things you said! You must come back to save me!”

Qi-ge seemed to be nodding his head hard. “All right,” he said emphatically. “Wait for me. Once I finish my training, I’ll definitely come back—then we’ll leave together!”

Luo Binghe:

Having just entered his apprenticeship, Luo Binghe had been full of joy and gratitude.

But now that he’d been splashed with a head full of tea for no reason, his heart had been wholly chilled and quenched, as if he’d taken a bucket of ice water to the face, complete with ice cubes.

He blankly remained kneeling in place, eyes unblinking. During this silence, two teardrops rolled down his cheeks.

This was Luo Binghe’s first cry since he personally buried his mother. It would also be the last time he cried at Cang Qiong Mountain Sect. After this, no matter what humiliation he suffered, no matter what “Shen Qingqiu” did to him while venting his twisted feelings, Luo Binghe’s tears never fell unrestrained in the way they did today.

Shen Qingqiu

Shen Qingqiu crouched before him, but when he raised his sleeves, they passed right through Luo Binghe. He was unable to touch him, unable to hug him. He was completely helpless to even wipe away his tears. His heart ached and throbbed to the point that he wished for death.

Despite knowing Luo Binghe couldn’t hear him, he still said, “Don’t cry, hm?”

Luo Binghe stared down at his knees, and the fists resting on his legs slowly clenched. His tears dripped faster, the drops splashing onto his lapels.

"Shizun will never hit you again.” Shen Qingqiu fruitlessly wiped at his cheeks and coaxed him. “So don’t cry.”

Luo Binghe raised a hand and rubbed at his eyes, then carefully picked up the teacup on the ground before placing it to the side. Clutching that jade pendant to his chest, he corrected his kneeling posture.

Shen Qingqiu knew what Luo Binghe was thinking at this moment. Surely he hadn’t understood the rules and had done something wrong, angering the peak lord. That was why he’d been given this punishment. As a disciple, kneeling for his shizun was also something he should do.

Looking at those subtle movements of his, Shen Qingqiu couldn’t help but kneel as well so that they were face-to-face. He reached out, tightly enveloping the entirety of Luo Binghe’s small body in a phantom embrace.

Yue Qingyuan:

But Yue Qingyuan’s next words would shake Shen Qingqiu to the core. “I’m truly…sorry.”

Even his voice trembled. “Even though I wanted to return as soon as possible, even though I wanted to come get you immediately…I made a mess of things instead. You were right. In the end, I’m an impulsive person…

"After that, Shizun destroyed all the tendons, bones, and meridians in my body, then shut me inside the Lingxi Caves for more than a year. My entirety was broken down, to be rebuilt anew.

"I screamed, I yelled, but it was no use. For an entire year, inside that pitch-black cave, no matter how crazed I became, how hysterical, no one listened closely to what I said, no one let me out…

"I pushed myself as hard as I could, but by the time I returned, Qiu Manor had already been destroyed for some time…”

It is Yue Qingyuan that is what is able to snap Shen Qingqiu to not continue a path of fake apathy and to actually take a step to fix their regrets. Shen Qingqui doesn't want to be the empty promise of sympathy as resounded so many times despite doing nothing but adding to Luo Binghe's hurt by faking passivity and aloofness to make good on what he says about not wanting to hurt Luo Binghe and leave him consistently. The running thread here is that they both said they would "be together" with Shen Jiu and Luo Binghe respectively yet were not able to, due to awful circumstance for Yue Qingyuan, and for lack of foresight of Luo Binghe's trauma that even Shen Qingqiu added towards.

They admittedly did fail to uphold the larger than life promises they made in the heat of impulse, Shen Qingqiu was just given the opportunity to be able to right his mistakes with the push from Yue Qingyuan. Shen Qingqui was able to show in actions finally that he did ultimately and truly care deeply for Luo Binghe, who had been consistently met with abandonment by those he loved, intentionally and unintentionally committed by Shen Qinqiu the most. His flippancy towards Luo Binghe's traumas are what he needs to tackle himself and make up for, something that Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu were unable to do despite the efforts on Yue Qingyuan's part.

In short, I very much adore Shen Yuan (motions to blog title), I feel he is a great rendition of what it means to be human, he's not amazing, he's smart, but he's emotionally dense, he says hurtful things but can care for someone with his entire heart. But he is not as omnipotent as he thinks to be and has to learn that the one he adored and then vilified wrongly, did not harm him as much as he had harmed the one he said he wanted to protect.