#shen jiu would be such a tragic character

[slouph]

HELP!! I transmitigated into my own novel and developed Complex Feelings for the SCUM VILLIAN!!! 

[allpiesforourown]

Hello..If you don't mind, can I ask your top 5 (or top 3) favorite characters from SVSSS? And why you loved them? And your top 5 favorite moments from the series?

Also, if you don't mind me asking (again), what do you think are Shen Yuan and Luo Binghe's greatest personality strengths and weaknesses? Why? What do you love about their dynamic? Sorry if you've answered these questions before.....

Okay that would take FOREVER so I'll just do my top 5 fav characters and my fav scenes with them

5. Ning Yingying - she's sooo silly... it was so wonderful being introduced to her and seeing her as a dumb airhead who unknowingly gets people in trouble (the pendant incident) and watching her overtime become someone responsible.

OKAYYYY QUEEN i just know she would run Qing Jing peak like it's the navy.. Also very important to me that although she gets serious when the time calls for it, her personality still has remnants of that silly girl we were first introduced to (for example during the return to childhood extra where she assumes a grown ass child is Shen Yuan's baby)

4. Original Luo Binghe

i could spend HOURS talking about how tragic his life was but honestly my reason for liking him as a character is really simple. He gets horny for people who are nice

The fact that he knew the original goods for YEARS and then Shen Yuan gave him cuddles and Bingge went "wait actually Shen Qingqiu is kind of hot??" Real as fuck . I just know after he returned to his world it was like

Bingge: you would be sexier if you were sweet and kind

Sha Hualing: im sorry do you KNOW who you're asking this of

3. Shang Qinghua is... way too real. I feel like everyone can relate to him, especially with how terrible the world is right now. He can't do anything to go against the plot he himself wrote. He's the painful mixure of "if only I had done that differently" and "I can't do anything at all" that everyone experiences.

Moments like this, such as Shang Qinghua interrupting Bingqiu's honeymoon really make his character even more tragic. Without Mobei-Jun, he doesn't really have a place to go... he didn't take the offer to return to his homeworld because there was no one waiting for him there. Even when he's having dinner with his friend, he knows he can't ask for more because sticking around would annoy Binghe. Just kind of wandering around alone and seeing other people be happy together and have a place to go sucks ://

2. My second favourite scene and my second favourite character: Luo Binghe

This scene really made me love SVSSS because it's so rare to find media where characters are actually allowed to be human and insecure. Like I know we call Binghe manipulative and toxic (and he is!) but EVERYONE has at some point in their life felt like they hate them self and no one loves them.

The fact that Luo Binghe has these emotions and they're relevant to the plot is so special to me. It's so disillusioning when a character goes through trauma after trauma and it's never talked about. Binghe going "shizun I hate myself and I want to end the world about it" was just.. *chef's kiss*

My favourite scene byfar: Shen Yuan hugging Binghe in Shen Jiu's memories

I think this was the final nail in the coffin for making me love Shen Yuan.

For all that he insists, "I'm just farming points so the protagonist won't kill me!" when he's put in a situation like this, he's more loving than ever. He can't touch Binghe, but all he wants to do is wipe his tears. It pains him so much to see his dear disciple hurt and vulnerable that he can't do anything but kneel down and try to hug an image of the past. He knows Binghe can't hear him but still tries to comfort him.

"Shizun will never hit you again." is a line that absolutely makes me go crazy, because Shen Yuan was never the one who hit Binghe, that was the original goods. He doesn't care if Binghe knows that it wasn't him who hurt him. All he cares about is making sure Binghe knows it will never happen again, and that Shen Yuan will love and protect him.

Shen Yuan tries so sooo hard to come across as a "reasonable" character but he can't hide how sentimental and emotional he is. He'll complain about how the characters in PIDW don't use their brain, but then you show him a memory of a crying child and say "this happened in the past and there's nothing you can do about it" and he'll still try to hug that child and tell them to stop crying and that they'll be okay. God I love Shen Yuan

[avourel]

thinking about Shen Jiu - not something I usually do, he's not my blorbo, but i saw an animatic that got me thinking - no wonder there are so many people obsessed with him.

three reasons, i think, make him prime blorbo-estate.

the first is the obvious one: he's so present in the entire story, and yet he's absent for all of it. and we know so little about him. this is catnip for fan obsession, of course tons of people would love to write/read/discuss him.

the second one is the sheer tragedy of his death in SV: he's dead and no one knows. he died unnoticed, unmourned, unremarked, and got no closure for anything - not even his death. the world went on turning, like nothing happened here. you know how they say the opposite of love isn't hatred, it's indifference? yeah.

so of course this would eat up people from the inside. this is why i think YQY being "sad" that SY hasn't "recovered his memories" or "preferred his old self" is so common in fics. people can't stand the way Shen Jiu vanishes from one moment to the next and no one even knows to miss him, so they try to solve it by having someone, at least, notice and want him back. because no one deserves to go like this.

and the third one, of course, is that he could so easily have been the protagonist instead. i mean, prodigy with a tragic backstory that clawed his way to power trying to come to terms with the betrayal from a loved one, unable to forgive and yet equally unable to leave him behind, having to see him constantly? trying to appear civil while seething in bitterness and betrayal and whatever other feelings he harbours towards YQY? if SJ were in any way inclined to - he absolutely was not - he could have tried to unwind the whole thorny issue with YQY and it could have been an entire new novel.

there's juicy, juicy angst, competence, a high position, enemy sects, secrets, people from his past that might show up... AND a prospect for revenge: if the story were from HIS perspective, we'd probably want to see YQY "defeated" in some way - forced to explain breaking his promise at last, for example. we'd want to see Shen Jiu vindicated, somehow proving his innocence towards everyone who ever slandered him... anyway, yeah, protagonist material.

no wonder tons of people just want to put him in the sandbox and play, and the strong emotions towards him and the potential for stories there kind of makes people forget the details of his personality and the abuse towards LBH a little, or bend them for storytelling purposes. he's a character with lots to play with.

[disgracefulthings]

In defense of Yue Qingyuan

I like to start off and say that you don't have to like Yue Qingyuan, but there is an aspect of his character that many people misunderstand, and I would like to explain it

"Why did Yue Qingyuan never tell Shen Jiu that he came for him?" This was something that I was confused by at first too, and yeah, it made him look bad. I'm not a huge fan of fanfics that over-villainizes him, but if that's cathartic for some people then I get it

What made me realize why Yue Qingyuan never came for Shen Jiu was me thinking about WHY their relationship was added to the story in the first place. What did these two characters mean to the svsss as a whole?

Shen Jiu is Luo Binghe's foil, they are very similar and both fall down a dark path. That made me look at both Shen Yuan and Yue Qingyuan, and that's when it hit me. Shen Yuan did the exact same thing Yue Qingyuan did. He never told Luo Binghe why he pushed him, and while WE know that he isn't able to explain the System, there was one thing he could've done to help Luo Binghe, and that would be to tell him that he regretted it. The System wasn't stopping him from saying it, so why didn't he?

Both Shen Yuan and Yue Qingyuan kept their silence for the same reason, they thought it wouldn't matter. Yue Qingyuan failed Shen Jiu, and Shen Yuan hurt Luo Binghe, and both of them believed that there was nothing they could do to fix it. Whatever they say would only be excuses, they have already failed, and nothing would change that

They don't see that explaining/apologizing would mean the world to Shen Jiu/Luo Binghe, and because of their silence on the matter, it's sends Shen Jiu and Luo Binghe into dark places

So let me ask you this. "Why does the fandom hate Yue Qingyuan and not Shen Yuan, who did the same thing?" And the answer is pretty clear. We see through Shen Yuan's perspective throughout the book, so we understand his reasoning, Yue Qingyuan's reasoning just wasn't spelled out for us. I love MXTX's writing, and how she doesn't just explain every aspect of a character, it's up to the reader to find out. She never outright says "Shen Yuan doesn't see the people around him as people, but as characters", we see that in how he thinks. Sadly that means that sometimes things are missed, and that includes the purpose of Yue Qingyuan's character

Anyway I wanted to put this out there because I've seen a lot of Yue Qingyuan hate, and like I said in the beginning, you are still free to hate this man, everyone has their character preferences. I just find it odd when people hate him for things Shen Yuan have did, yet he isn't treated the same way as Yue Qingyuan is by the fandom

Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu are a tragic duo that have an unhappy ending in 2 canonical worlds, and while they are very flawed individuals, I can't help but want them to get better and be happy

[gaywarcriminals]

On Mouthwashing, Qijiu, cruel characters, and the role of discomfort in blorbo analysis. 

I recently watched a playthrough and some video essays about the indie horror game Mouthwashing (spoilers ahead). For those not familiar, the game follows a man named Jimmy in a crashed spaceship where he reveals himself to be an unreliable narrator and fucked up in a variety of ways as the game progresses. 

Although I’m not immersed in the fandom and thus have a limited sample size, I noticed that people treat him as nearly inhuman. He’s the sole bad actor, a terrible monster destined to hurt everyone. I find this deeply ironic considering the game’s themes of responsibility and accountability: isn’t this kind of dehumanization absolving him of his responsibility to act decently?

It’s also strange to me, because the game goes at lengths to show Jimmy has an enabler. Captain Curly is Jimmy’s friend and boss who is made aware of Jimmy’s erratic and violent behavior multiple times, chooses to do nothing, and ultimately makes possible many deaths through his inaction. Aside from Jimmy’s public outbursts, there are even scenes with a specific member of their crew expressing how unsafe she feels around Jimmy. Despite this, a decent portion of the fandom sees Curly as nothing more than one of Jimmy’s victims, which is curious to me when placed in contrast with Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu.

Yeah yeah I’m blorbo-brained, but I think there’s a lot of points for comparison between Qijiu and Jimmy & Curly, at least in terms of their dynamic and social roles. Jimmy and Shen Jiu are both antisocial assholes with an unhealthy fixation on the generally well liked and affable guy just above them on the totem poll. They’re both convinced their superior is looking down on them, and resent the power he has (SJ less so, he has a lot of other reasons to resent YQY). They both use what power they do have to abuse those below them. Curly and YQY, for their parts, are shown to be explicitly aware of most if not all of their friend’s worrying/dangerous behavior, but do nothing meaningful to stop it. 

If they’re so similar, then why in the case of Mouthwashing is Curly often absolved of his complicity in the face of Jimmy’s overwhelmingly awful actions, whereas in the Scum Villain fandom, it’s just as common to see people pin all of SJ’s actions on YQY and vice versa?

Now, there’s a couple obvious reasons for this. For one, Mouthwashing is a horror game and Jimmy very effectively makes himself the antagonist, which lends itself to the interpretation of him as a the monster afflicting the other characters. For another, Jimmy sexually abused a shipmate, which is a particularly despicable crime (although so, I would argue, is child abuse). There’s also the fact that Curly is very physically robbed of agency for most of the game’s runtime, which might make it harder to see his power and agency before that point, but perhaps the most important difference is that to fans, Jimmy is deeply unlikable, and Shen Jiu is not. 

Personally, I think the reason a lot of people make Jimmy out to be a monster and Shen Jiu to be tragically misunderstood is simple: it can be uncomfortable to like a bad person. 

I don’t think there should be any shame in liking characters who are fucked up people that do horrible things, but I think it chafes at some sensibility within many of us, learned or innate, when we feel such deep emotional connection to a character who’s actions we would normally morally condemn. 

I’ve definitely observed that in some parts of the Shen Jiu fandom– it's the kind of sentiment that leads to discounting his canonical actions in favor of fanon. I’ve never found those fanons very compelling because I have never had any discomfort with Shen Jiu’s canonical actions— in fact, him being a despicable if pitiable mess is what drew me to him (I’m typically quite the fucked-up-evil-guy liker). For once, though, I find myself on the other side of this discomfort with Yue Qingyuan. 

I was thinking today about how one of the earliest things YQY says to SY!SQQ— his 9th line in the novel— was telling SQQ that LBH is strung up in the woodshed, where SQQ always leaves him after beating him. It implies not just that YQY knows about this singular punishment, but that this is an extended pattern of behavior. To me, YQY seems uncomfortable with the situation, but he does nothing to stop LBH from being abused aside from telling SQQ to “be less hard on him”, even though he’s the only person in the sect above SQQ, and potentially the only one with the authority to stop him. 

If Yue Qingyuan knew, did Luo Binghe know the sect leader had found out? Did Luo Binghe know he had been abandoned to his fate?

Like Curly, I think that Yue Qingyuan’s most unforgivable fault as a character was enabling Shen Jiu’s abuse of Luo Binghe and potentially other disciples. I think YQY’s motivations made sense, and I understand the choices he made, but when I think about it for too long I can feel a deep pit in my stomach grow. 

Why does YQY’s arguably lesser crime of enabling SJ bother me so much more than SJ’s own direct actions? Perhaps because I still want to see Yue Qingyuan as a good person, whereas Shen Jiu has already declared himself evil. Maybe I’ve been a little bit caught up in our unreliable narrator’s point of view. 

Fascinatingly, despite his adoration for Luo Binghe, Shen Yuan cum Shen Qingqiu never (to my recollection at least), blames Yue Qingyuan for SJ’s actions. Instead, he sees YQY as one of SJ’s victims— someone that SJ as good as killed, even if it was LBH’s orders that loosed the arrows. 

Shen Qingqiu has a tendency to, for lack of a better term, woobify his favs, and although LBH is by far the most frequent recipient of this treatment, I’d argue that YQY actually receives it more consistently. This is partially because he’s relegated to friendly NPC whereas poor Binghe is the Big Scary Protagonist, but the only time in the whole novel I can think of SQQ seeing YQY as a person capable of harm and fucking up is after YQY’s confession where SQQ puts it together with SJ’s flashbacks, but even then, SQQ sees him more as a cautionary tale for him and Binghe than someone who’s hurt others. Given this narrative bias, I’m honestly surprised* that more of the fandom isn’t simping for YQY too.

Ultimately, I think this discomfort is normal and worthwhile– something to lean into rather than away from. I’d even say it's necessary, should we ever hope to be more media literate than Peerless Cucumber.

*well, I’m not, but that’s a whole piece of fandom history better left untouched

[dangermousie]

A danmei lover's biased and incomplete het web novel rec list

@mercipourleslivres thanks for inspiring me!

When it comes to Chinese web novels, I mainly read danmei. I tend not to care too much for OP heroine with a hero who dotes on her for no reason as she fights with 14 year olds narratives, nor inner courtyard fights. BUT!!! There are some het web novels I like and so here is my biased and incomplete rec list. Most of these don't have OP heroines, and very little to none courtyard fights.

Before I start, my favorite het web novel authors are: Gong Xinwen, Mo Shu Bai, Peng Lai Ke, and Jiu Lu Fei Xiang. I have yet to read anything bad by them.

Anyway, rec list:

1000 Miles of Bright Moonlight - one of my ultimate favorites, this would make such an epic drama! A smart as hell heroine, a hero who is a monk and a warrior (but also terminally?) ill and such a vivid world and amazing secondary characters (heroine’s brother is possibly my favorite supporting character of all time) and so much angst and happy ending. This has an amazing romance but it’s not romance-centric if it makes sense - ML doesn’t appear for a while. But once he does, it’s worth it!

Accompanying the Phoenix - the one that just got adapted into The Legend of Shen Li, this is high adventure and cottage core and funny and tragic and powerful ML being putty in the hands of capable FL and just EVERYTHING.

Apocalypse Arrival - Gong Xinwen’s novels are made just for me. Her heroines are always powerful as fuck and rescue abused MLs. In this novel, our heroine who lives in the post-apocalyptic world, wakes up right before that apocalypse happens. She forms a survival crew and also rescues ML who has miraculous blood and has been drained of it and is now hunted after the rescue for it. SO GOOD!!!

Black Moonlight Holds the BE Script - so fucked up, so good, with monster hero who learns to love and be human and heroine who learns to love and be human (but from the other side, her tower of perfection.) Much better than the drama which I did enjoy.

The Blue Whisper - the drama was so-so, but the novel is a bona fide angst masterpiece, which really delves into what it feels like to be imprisoned or to love.

Counterattack of the Cannon Fodder Chambermaid - I remember starting this and loving the realistic feel and the heroine and wanting to stab the hero and @mercipourleslivres telling me to be patient. She was right, by the end I was on board with both the hero (who was abused and is rather autistic-coded) and the OTP. Anyway, heroine is a servant who was a concubine in the last life and got killed as part of a rich family’s harem intrigues. In this life, she just wants to keep her head down but her life gets derailed anyway. She gets sold away and eventually made a servant in the household of an exiled prince who takes a fancy to her and she endures it because what choice does she have? All she wanted was to serve out her term and become a small time merchant. This is quite realistic about lack of options for women, especially lower class women or upper class male attitudes (ML is never vicious or mean to FL but it does not initially occur to him to wonder if she fancies him or enjoys being his concubine or w/e.) It is a DELIGHTFUL slow burn tho as they grow to love each other and grow together and become one of the most wholesome cnovel couples out there.

Dandere General and His Lord - hi there, Gong Xinwen! God, I love this one. Heroine transmigrates from modern world into a brutal slave-holding world at war (think something like Warring States era.) Our heroine transmigrates into the body of a noblewoman who just hung herself. When she comes to, she discovers that woman’s twin brother was the ruler of a city poisoned by a rival claimant and the besieging army of said claimant is about to take the city and original occupant of the body and the rest of the family chose suicide as a way to avoid dishonor. Our heroine refuses, schemes with advisors to pass as the brother and rally the troops. Once the invaders are defeated, she keeps on the masquerade and rides off to one of the never-ending wars “she” is summoned to. Our hero couldn’t be farther from this. A slave and a son of a slave, he’s escaped a horrific, starving childhood during which he narrowly avoided being murdered or raped, and ended up in the army. When the story opens, he distinguished himself in battle and as a reward, he and a few of his fellow slave warriors are invited to a banquet, where they are given some alcohol and to be playthings of any nobles who want them. One of them does not survive this but ML is lucky - heroine feels terrible and so “claims” him for herself. Instead she just tends to his wounds and sends him back. She does not fancy him or anything, she is just a human being with a conscience. And the story goes from there.

Demon King's Repayment - another delicious Gong Xinwen tale with a powerful ML dedicated to capable FL. This one is a great fantasy plot (I keep imagining it as an animated series) and a sprawling cast of amazing secondaries (and secondary OTPs - there is, I swear, an OTP that is Dong Hua x Feng Jiu done thru GXW lens) to boot.

Doomed to Be Cannon Fodder - I hesitated to put this one on the list because by the end I was not keen on how misogynistic novel got to original female lead but it was one of my earliest novels and I loved it for 90% and it’s fucking hilarious at times. Heroine transmigrates as bit villainess into a novel, all she wants is not to die, but her new attitude of “pls stay away” catches the attention of her terrifying general husband. Honestly, imo still worth it.

Dreamer in the Spring Boudoir - my n1 novel on this list, smart and fierce and don’t really read this for romance because it does not start until really late, but ice cold heroine x ice cold hero both of equal brains and ruthlessness is everything. I went from loathing the ML to finding him fascinating to adoring him (and yet he softened around the edges only for FL, he never became “nice”) and loved FL throughout; secondaries are epic. If you read only one non-danmei web novel, make it this one.

The Emperor’s Beloved Ugly Girl - my n2 novel on this list. Our heroine is the unlucky laundry maid A’Chou. She is a di daughter of an upperclass family but her family got destroyed in one of the political upheavals of the time and A’Chou, only a small child at the time, was the only survivor and was made an enslaved laundry maid. Due to various events, at the start of the novel she is a laundry maid in a minister’s household and the minister’s beloved daughter is having a fit because she’s supposed to marry the former Crown Prince which may have been great a few years back but Crown Prince had since been deposed, tortured, imprisoned and now is living in the middle of nowhere under conditions that are too meager to be called house arrest. And he’s seriously crippled too. Understandably, the young lady doesn’t want to marry him! She’d rather kill herself and so she does. And so, a desperate plan is hatched - why don’t we pretend the laundry maid is the di daughter of the minister’s household and send her off? And so A’Chu is sent as the bride. She arrives to discover a broke, seriously injured man on the verge of death…and we go from there. This is so gorgeous and tender and slow in just the right way and like AAAAAA! Secondary OTPs (one of which is MM) are also epic.

Futu Tower - the drama (Unchained Love) was a mess but the novel is such a lovely, dark exploration of coming back to life, for the ML from his dark revenge-strewn path and for heroine from not being allowed wishes of her own. She is a tribute bride, he’s a (fake) eunuch, they are both servants who use themselves to achieve goals and find peace and happiness together.

The Grand Princess - a tale where both members of the OTP reincarnate as their younger selves after killing each other in their 50s, and get a new start, this is smart and slow and so good in portraying old souls in young bodies. Their rediscovery of not just each other but themselves and their passion for living is just AAAAAA!

Heroine Saves Gentleman - Gong Xinwen novel so we have a tough martial artist lady saving a very upper class scholar and it goes from there. If elegant gorgeous ML being saved and protected (and lovingly dommed) by awesome FL is your bag, pls come right in.

Husband Be a Gentleman - schemer meet schemer. He’s an idle prince she’s perfect daughter, in reality both are wolves out for blood. Mmmm. Very OTP gets together early and is us against the world.

I’ll Be the Male Lead’s Sister in Law - one of my all time favorite novels. Heroine is made to marry a disabled nephew of the emperor. He used to be a victorious god of war but went mad and now is basically locked away and kept as a beast. GOD I LOVE THIS NOVEL SO MUCHHHHH! So much hurt/comfort and awesome OTP and after he eventually recovers, all he wants to do is to fight and murder things and dote on wifey. MMM. He’s honestly one of my fave MLs.

I Married a Disabled Tyrant After Transmigrating - if you have a Florence Nightingale complex, this is for you. Heroine wakes up as tribute bride to an almost dead dragon lord and slowly nurses him back to life as his rivals try to murder him. They are both utter adorable babies!

Let the Villain Go - another Gong Xinwen novel, this and Apocalypse Arrivals are AUs of each other. Heroine is surviving in the apocalypse, ML is the “bugbear” of the world but in reality just reacting to all abuse and torture and after she accidentally saves him, devotes himself. Fun fun fun!

Long Wind Crossing - Amazing ML and FL who grow together, clever plot, arranged marriage to love etc etc. Oh, and one point he feeds her his blood to keep her alive, what’s not to love? (Adapted into Chang Feng Du/Destined)

Lost You Forever - this is a short but delicately wistful tale of trauma and loss and love, wrapped in a high fantasy setting but so relatable despite it.

Love In Another Life: My Gentle Tyrant - so so fucked up in the best way! ML cannot live with OR without heroine. It opens on them banging in jail night before her execution (ordered by him) with corpses of men he killed for trying to defile her cooling nearby. If you want healthy relationships with respectful boundaries, gentle and considerate male leads who are modern men in period clothes, OP heroines who have everyone help them and are OP to the max, fluff and wholesomeness, that is about the worst book for you.If you want complexity, dysfunction, darkness, pain and an absolutely lyrical even if fucked up story, come right IN!!!!I am so fucking in love with the melancholy heroine, with ruthless psycho hero and the endless regret and devotion and paaaaain!

The Marquis Is Innocent - our heroine is a beautiful woman married to a warlord who hates her family. (Yes, this was gonna be The Prisoner of Beauty until SZE tax scandal.) Except she's a transmigrator from the future who knows how it ended last time around and has no interest to end up this tragically. This is in my top 5 - FL is smart but believably so (and doesn't have super battle powers) and ML is a believable period warlord. The way their relationship develops so gradually and the way his character changes so gradually as well (and the way they slowly fall in love, her slower than him) is just amazing. It is such a smart, nuanced, gorgeous slow burn. With some gonzo sex scenes :P

Mulberry Song - you like tragic endings? Come right IN! This is short and heartbreaking and wistful and very what-if.

Nightfall (Ever Night) - so long but also so smart and unusual and bloody and tho it’s not primarily a romance, you will never see another ML who loves his FL as much as Ning Que does his Sang Sang. 

Offering Salted Fish to Master - in some ways, this novel is a mess, but I am recommending it because this is a rare example of "nope he's 100% a villain and murderdude and odd, but he does love the heroine" that the author commits to.

Pihanjin - yet another awesome PLK novel, this is once again, like with Marquis, a ruthless man and a beautiful woman getting a second chance on a second go-around. FL is a lot more wounded this time around though. If you LOVE watching ML grovel and slowly, gradually win FL over, this one is for you.

Princess Agents - a dark tale with an incredibly competent and militarily powerful/ruthless heroine and two terrifying men who love her (but neither is as terrifying as she is.) There is an OTP switch halfway through that shockingly makes sense and it's just SO SO GOOOOOOOD

Rebirth of the Malicious Empress of Military Lineage - this is probably the one “typical” novel on this list, heroine is reborn as her youngest self and gets revenge on those who wronged her last time around. It is really really well-written and heroine is competent, hero is doting and powerful etc. It’s not a trope I tend to love but I do when it’s done THIS well.

Rebirth of the Tyrant’s Pet: Regent Prince is Too Fierce: Borgias cnovel style! Our heroine was empress in last life and put her husband on the throne tho he did not love her. However, he had her executed and had his half-brother carry out the orders and heroine died horrifically. She opens her eyes and she’s a little girl again. The OTP this time around is heroine and half-brother executioner. Why do I love it? Heroine is smart and tough but also this is a rare rebirth novel where heroine does NOT decide to seek revenge for past life wrongs because they haven’t happened yet! In fact, she sees ML abused and stands up for him because he’s a kid and no kid should be mistreated and this go around he hasn’t done anything wrong. She also gets and likes her former life husband. Anyway, this is fakecest galore because she’s supposed to be their half-sister and while she knows (from past life) she is not, they do not and fall for her anyway. ML is especially gonzo, at one point carving chunks of his flesh to save her. He’s feral and unhinged and she’s the one person he worships because she protected him and like - it’s all awesome. (I love secondary ML too.)

Reborn to Love Lord Qiansui - yes, this is a eunuch novel! If you like gender tropes reversals, this one is for you. Heroine is a tough martial artist, hero is a smart as hell and powerful eunuch. A real eunuch. Heroine finds out she owes him her life and decides to protect him. This is a total delight and an awesome love story between two really scarred people. And yes, there is sex - heroine literally reads manuals on pegging :P

Return of the Swallow - so freaking long! But really good. Heroine is neither transmigrator nor reincarnator, just a smart period woman. She is a lost family daughter taken back in. Her father is a minister in a dying empire (father-daughter relationship is one of the best things in this novel), her OTP is enemy general, and the smartness and the awesomeness of this all knows no bounds.

Seven Unfortunate Lifetimes - probably the wackiest JLFX novel I read, this is quite different from Love You Seven Times drama that was adapted from it. Our deity protagonists go through a bunch of lives figuring out they fancy each other. It's light like a souffle but just as delicious.

To Be a Virtuous Wife - some people prefer 8 treasures trousseau but I never warmed up to that one. This one is so good, with smart people (who actually enjoy sex, a ratity) and a perfect mix of plot and romance.

Transmigrator Meets Reincarnator - my very first web novel. A lot lighter than a lot of the ones on this list but a total delight. Heroine transmigrates into a novel as the heroine; she has no interest in drama or chasing true love, she just wants to live a nice life with her nice husband. Too bad for her, her husband has reincarnated into his younger self and remembers how she betrayed him, so is not interested. This one is funny and light and romance doesn’t start till late on but a total delight!

Wishing You Eternal Happiness - this is tied with Dreamer as my favorite het web novel ever though it couldn’t be more different from Dreamer, with its hard-edged and hard-souled protagonists ruthlessly cleaving their way to the world and, eventually, each other, its smart cynical air. Except in one thing - the world of Wishing is just as bloody and dark. Its two protagonists are gentle, deeply wounded souls who may find salvation in each other but even something as basic as safety almost seems out of reach.

Jliafu, our heroine, is neither a modern-day transmigrator, nor some exotic princess or demoness. She is very much a period woman of her time, from a weathy merchant clan, whose beauty is her curse. You can tell the novel’s tone from that utterly bleak opening chapter where she, a favorite concubine of a capricious dying emperor, is ordered to be buried alive with him and is not even given the “grace” of white silk but slowly suffocates in the coffin, scrabbling at the lid. There is no grand threats of vengeance on her part, not dramatic opera events. Just despair and death. The whole introductory chapter is haunted by emotional ghosts - the empress’ unrequited love for the monster on the imperial bed (turning into desire for Jiafu’s suffering after he dies), the emperor slowly dying in his prime after waging too many wars, and his fear of being haunted by Pei Youan, a brilliant if sickly minister who died of illness long ago on one of imperial campaigns. There is no triumph for anyone, only loss.

When she wakes up as still a young woman, all she wants is to escape the same fate. There are no plans for power or revenge, only a desire for survival. And so she latches on asking for help from Pei Youan, the only man in her past go-around who showed any consideration and desire and ability to protect her, though he barely knew her. Pei Youan is probably my favorite het web novel ML. Despite his brains and ability, he drifts through life. In modern terms, he clearly has depression. One of the biggest, best joys of the novel is watching these two very good, very quiet, very wounded people discover happiness and love with each other. I sort of want to cry just thinking about it, tbh.

The Yandere Came During the Night - a bit of fluff that’s oddly delightful. Heroine is reborn as a (fake) sister of ML, she hurts her legs saving him and the “siblings” form a bond that ends up in fakecest delight. They are both smart and efficient and he becomes a sexy marquis etc.

[marshmallowwitharubberband]

Something that pops up at me in MXTX's stories is the duality of suffering from "can't have women thriving in my very gay sausage fest" syndrome (which is very prevalent in BL and some people categorize as internalized misogyny — something I don't wanna get into rn), but at the same time, a recurring but subtle (or maybe ignored) theme in her stories is portraying sex workers as people. All three of her novels feature prostitutes as background characters, but, for the most part, their portrayal isn't truly negative.

Shen Jiu preferred sleeping in brothels because he felt safer there, and it's treated as something tragic but ultimately harmless.

Jin Guangyao was reviled for being a prostitute's son, but this is clearly stated by the novel to be morally wrong and fueled by the nobles' prejudice and superficiality.

Wei Wuxian was a-ok with hanging out with or helping ghost sex workers and doesn't call any sort of attention to it. They're just regular ghosts to him.

Even Xie Lian's encounter with the brothel workers in Ghost Town doesn't paint them in a bad light, they're merely pushy like any other vendor of any other product would be.

Whatever their role or narrative purpose when they appear, they aren't portrayed like some symbol of corruption or evil, they're simply workers doing their job.

That's pretty neat.

[lynnthefrenchtoast]

The Tragedy of Qijiu; Analysis

aka: reason why Yue Qingyuan and Shen Jiu make me ugly sob

1. the things left unsaid

the most poignant part of the novel for this ship is this line: "Too late. It was already too late! Shen Jiu was no longer here. He would never again be able to hear Yue Qingyuan’s words, never ever.”

and again, in the character notes: "He (sy) is no longer the intended recipient of this favor. Yue Qingyuan will have to find his own closure, as the person he looks for behind the new Shen Qingqiu’s eyes will no longer return.”

READ THAT SHIT. READ IT. ISNT IT TRAGIC???

ygy and sj spent their whole lives since they were little kids with unspoken words between them, longing glances, misunderstandings and hidden affections. you know who else does that? THE MAIN COUPLE OF SCUMS VILLAIN: luo binghe and shen yuan.


EXCEPT

we get to watch them fix their misunderstanding. we get to watch binghe realize he was never hated for his heritage. we get to watch shen yuan realize he is saved from retribution for sins he never committed. this is a privilege qijiu never gets.

the worst part? they almost get it.

because yue qingyuan does, in (what he believes are) his final moments, try to communicate. it's the beautiful cliche "im dying so ill tell you everything" except its not beautiful because the person he needs to tell is GONE. he was gone the whole time and YUE QINGYUAN DOESNT EVEN KNOW:

2. YUE QINGYUAN'S SOULMATE IS DEAD AND HE DOESNT KNOW

is that not like INSANE???

like yeah, the person you love dying is tragic. but its even more tragic that they were so distant he cannot even tell shen jiu and shen yuan apart. he will never know his beloved is gone from the world; he is not even awarded the privilege to mourn

and he can NEVER know. sy is literally prohibited by the system from telling him. so happens is:

3. YUE QINGYUAN MUST FALSELY BELIEVE HIS SOULMATE REJECTED HIM FOR ANOTHER GUY

+

4. yue qingyuan fails shen jiu at each and every opportunity

can you IMAGINE? he got into cultivation to save his xiao jiu from the qiu manor. he failed. he became the leader of the sect to be a man shen jiu could one day respect. shen never respects him (even shen yuan canonically is like "dude wtf? this is the sect leader; shen jiu treats him so disrespectfullt?") . yue qingyuan tries to protect shen jiu from luo binghe - fails. tried to save him after receiving his two legs in the mail but failed and died trying. tries to save shen yuan - shows up too late and shen yuan gets poisoned without a cure. tries to take on debt for shen yuan - shen yuan wins the spirit stones. tries to fight mobei jun - fails and shen jiu falls into depression because he lost binghe due to his failure. tried to lock up a heavenly demon - succeeded! but that ultimately led to the birth of the even stronger heavenly demon who goes on to torture his beloved for a decade.

yue qingyuan is a man in power without the power to succeed at the one thing he needs to.

conversely, shen jiu, a little slave with no name or power changed his live. when yqy needed him, shen jiu selflessly stepped in danger's way and saved him successfully. yqy never repays his debt even though he tries so hard.

and then his xiao jiu falls in love with the young demon boy who wreaks havoc and kidnaps him and kinda treats him like shit. he fails at earning shen jiu's love too.

5. yue qingyuan never finds out that shen jiu loved him.

shen yuan likely believed yue qingyuan abhorred him. what shen yuan feels for yue qingyuan is likely a mix of "you betrayed me so i must hate you + you hate me so in return i must hate you. but in reality if you were to look close i dont hate you at all. but ill act like i do because i must hate you."

yue qingyuan though? there was no question. his feelings for shen jiu were always love and shen jiu will never know that, so there will never be a chance for shen jiu to change his mind, to not think "you do not hate me so i do not have to hate you, you love me so i can love you"

this kinda ties into the "words left unsaid" point EXCEPT at least shen jiu gets one time where he finds out how yqy feels. yqy never ever in any universe finds out. he thinks shen jiu is determined to never call him qi-ge again.

6. but even when shen jiu gets to find out yue qingyuan loves him, it is the most tragic way of doing so

i want you to imagine:

you love this person. you trusted them and they betrayed you. you hate that they make you feel weak so you place distance between you two. they look down on you so you respond in turn, with harsh words and harsher actions.

and then they die a horrific death- stabbed by ten thousand arrows- to come save you.

you realize they never meant to betray you, never looked down on you.

you were so mean and distant for nothing.

you cannot say sorry. they are dead. it is your fault.

shen jiu so eagerly wrote that letter to yqy, not because he wanted to escape torture but because he was so confident yqy wouldnt come.

he didnt come last time, so why did he come now!?

EXTRA

they are the epitome of the childhood friends to lovers & "i loved you all along" trope. they have seen each other in every stage of their loves and still, in their convoluted way, loved each other even with all the tension between them

golden retriever x black cat

yue qingyuan totally spoils shen qingqiu. if he tolerates that level of disrespect? yk damn well qing jing peak is never short of funding

shen jiu really is in desperate need of being loved. he like, is a character that claims he doesnt care to be liked but we all know its human nature to want to be appreciated and loved. "i dont need you to love me" "i love you" "oh"

the potential for a: "i dont need your pity" "its not pity i just care about you" or a "why do you even care?" "because i love you" or a (as catra and adora say) "i know you all hate me!" "i never hated you" dialogue drop

the potential for a deku -> izuku moment. i mean yue qingyuan literally canonically foreshadows it: "are you so determined to never call me qi-ge again?"

misunderstood x "i see past your mask" (ive written more about this dynamic in my lynaether post tumblr wont let me link but the in summary: blablabla human desire to be understood and human tendency to self sabotage and hide your flaws yada yada "i hold the ugliest parts of you up to the lie and dont even flinch")

FEEL FREE TO ADD UR EXTRA BULLET POINTS IN THE COMMENTS

[sun-and-moon-mushroom]

One of the reasons I have very little investment in Shen Jiu discourse is the fact that we just straight up just don’t know much about him? And most of what we do know comes from Shen ‘unreliable narrator’ Yuan, with only the extras to show us how he was outside of the narrow perspective of PIDW. Even with the fake manual thing, there are conflicting statements within canon over if that was Ming Fan or Shen Jiu. Most of the time, people don’t seem to be arguing over the actual character, but over their own conflicting interpretations of him, despite the fact that he’s so open to interpretation that you could easily write him your tragically misunderstood meow meow or an unrepentant villain, and neither would contradict canon all that much.

[endlessburningdarkness]

You know, in PIDW, Shen Jiu could very easily be turned into a martyr. I've always thought that Luo Bingge's empire was always doomed to fail, especially after decades of the world decaying and falling to ruin under his tyranny. That after decades of him doing whatever the hell he wanted, including taking women into his harem by force and committing atrocities because he was pissed, his subjects would grow to hate him. So, of course, he would become the villain, the scum, the lecher and backstabber, and a liar.

Imagine that after decades of it, someone unearthed transcripts of Shen Jiu's trial. They read it all and realize that there is no actual proof of anything and that he was convicted solely on heresy. That all his accuser were either Luo Binghe himself, in cahoots with him, or women who would go on to be the founders of his horrific harem. No actual proof and accusations were made by very biased parties with something to gain from Shen Jiu's conviction. Not to mention that anyone who could have either refuted or corroborated the accusations were all killed by Luo Binghe's orders.

People love both a tragic martyr and good conspiracy theories. Shen Jiu is no longer an irredeemable villain in the public eye, but a wrongfully convicted man who was targeted because he knew too much. Knew what LBH really was and could have stopped him and his plans.

Their roles are reversed, and in the end, Shen Jiu gets the last laugh.

This is a very nice idea, very cathartic, though I would say Shen Qingqiu got the last laugh the moment he died anyway because well, he gets to leave the shit world while LBH is stuck in it and will now never get his true desire: Shen Qingqiu's attention.

I can totally see all kind of crazy conspiracy theories popping up regarding Shen Qingqiu and if we buy that LBH is not actually happy with his expanding harem, and has many children, we can also argue that eventually the wives and kids get sick of his shit and kill him or imprison him and as part of that process, they attack his character by digging up what he actually did to Shen Qingqiu.

[shizunitis]

Luo Binghe & Tianlang-Jun: Origins. And a Bit of Projection.

Disclaimer: This is basically just a collection of quotes from The Scum Villain's Self-Saving System, Volume 3, accompanied by (adjective) thoughts, and then even more relevant quotes listed at the end. If I could, I’d paste the entirety of Chapter 18.

“As expected, I can’t bring myself to hate humans.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 21: Always Together

I will always be conflicted on the topic of Tianlang-jun, and it annoys me. There is so much I could say about him, and so little I can successfully articulate. He is, to me, more confounding, complex and tragic than Shen Jiu.

He’s pitiful and awe-inspiring, wicked and affable, cunning and wide-eyed in his curiousity. He is a compelling, heartbreaking character. He alternates between emotionless wisdom and mournful apathy. I admire how his knees don’t buckle under the weight of his grief, but how he crumbles at the barest hint of hope. How rage claws at him and, still, he can’t figure out how to make it stick.

I empathise with him. I understand him.

But then, in the distance, Luo Binghe's indifferent voice disturbs the silence, causing me to drop my drink onto the floor and this post onto your screen:

“He’s not my father.”

It’s an interesting exercise, exploring their relationship in reconciliation fics. To see them interact (semi-)honestly, watch them take turns filling up the chasm between them. It’s wonderful. Every fic I’ve read centred around them was a delightful read that I still think about.

However. I cannot see Tianlang-Jun, as I understand him, as Luo Binghe’s father. And not just because of the 3rd Novel’s events.

But because Binghe had hoped for something; he did have that wide-eyed wonder. He did hold one last window open, for the sake of an improbability he couldn’t quite, just yet, dismiss.

It’s what (most) orphaned and/or adopted childred do.

Though Luo Binghe had never said a word about it before, Shen Qingqiu knew that he harbored some fantasies about his birth parents. […] In fact, he’d always secretly fantasized about whether his parents might still be alive, and how well they’d treat him, and how they’d never let him suffer the mildest slight. — Vol. 3, Chapter 17: Tianlang

It is the most human thing; to want to be helped, accepted, invited by those given to you. A family is given to you. Whether you believe it an act of the divine, of nature, of coincidence, it isn’t something you fight for. It’s the first and, arguably, only thing you don’t have to fight for in life.

Depending on a multitude of factors, that can be a blessing or a curse; but where there is room for interpretation, questions left unanswered, most childred—Binghe included—will turn to their imagination, and try to make sense of it. Usually, to comfort themselves, to reassure themselves that surely, if their family could, they would have.

And, yeah. Most likely, if the Palace Master had gotten punted into the Sun like he fucking deserved, they would have. But does it matter?

In the face of a bleak reality, what comfort is a could-have-been?

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. […] Luo Binghe was in fact…someone who was unloved by even his own parents. — Vol. 3, Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

What use are good intentions to an abandoned child? What consolation is it, to say, They gave birth to you, when that child has seen no evidence of their care? Does it dry their tears, that their mother can’t be here, but she surely would have wished to be? That their father would protect them, if only he knew of them?

(And don’t make me tell you about the visceral horror I felt reading the Origins chapter. I’ve yet to make my peace with it. MXTX, Airplane, whoever: you’ve ruined me.)

The washerwoman was and continues to be, to Binghe, his only mother. And I would argue, that’s healthy. Even independent of his other traumas (Abyss, Shizun’s betrayal, Xin Mo’s influence, living on the streets, etc, holy shit Binghe) Luo Binghe will not accept anyone else as his mother.

“Who is this Su Xiyan?” Luo Binghe asked coldly. “My mother was a mere washerwoman.” — Vol. 3, Chapter 18: Origins.

It may seem callous. It probably even is! But it is a healthy line he’d drawn by his own initiative. It’s what helps him, what he feels he needs to do in order to do right by his mother, and his own heart.

And! Tianlang-Jun doesn’t seem to give much of a shit, either!

Won’t, probably, even in the future, once the dust will have settled. He is exhausted, weary with carrying the corpse of his love, the loss of his nephew. Whatever goodwill he shows, it’s a perfunctory sort, because he can’t afford more.

So. Uhh.

Tianlang-Jun is not a character I can love, nor one I can hate. Usually, I can’t help but be inclined to love complex characters. Like them, too—though that’s more of an action-based thing rather than just said character’s personality.

But with Tianlang-Jun, I’m stuck whichever way I turn. If I want to love/like him, I’m drawn back by Binghe’s pain and disappointment. If I try to hate/dislike him, I’m drawn back by his own history and grief.

In conclusion:

I don't know! I'm not really trying to, like, prove anything. I still love the aforementioned TLJ & LBH fics, I still love their dynamic. I started walking and ended up exactly in the same space. This, perhaps, could be considered a Heavenly Demon Family Mobius Strip!

I'm not really trying to say anything. It just… makes me feel conflicted, and angry, and whenever I allow myself to think about it a bit more, sad.

But.

However!

Alas.

Nonetheless, even.

As a reader and—on my better days—a writer, all I can say is:

As promised/threatened: some selected passages, for your reading pleasure:

So, it looked like neither the father nor the cousin had any intention of acknowledging Luo Binghe. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

He liked to call Luo Binghe “that son of mine,” but he didn’t seem to possess any concept of fatherly affection. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

Tianlang-Jun lifted his hand, took a look at Luo Binghe’s snow-pale face, and commented indifferently, “He looks like his mother.” “His eyes look like yours,” came a chill voice from the side. — Chapter 15: Holy Mausoleum

The faint hopes and dreams Luo Binghe had held in his heart for many years had been mercilessly pulverized into so much dust. […] [Tianlang-Jun] refused to speak a single word of their relationship and had been utterly ruthless back in the Holy Mausoleum. […] To his parents, Luo Binghe was an unwanted child. — Chapter 18: Origins

“If he was my father, why didn’t he bring it up earlier? Why not tell me?” The most Tianlang-Jun had said was that single line he offered while beating up Luo Binghe, devoid of either praise or criticism: “He looks like his mother.” He looks like his mother. What of it? But that was all. There was nothing more. — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe was indifferent. “He’s not my father.” […] Luo Binghe shook his head. It was unclear what he was stubbornly clinging to, but he repeated, “He’s not my father.” — Chapter 18: Origins

Luo Binghe raised his smiling face, his eyes shining brightly. “Mother was the kindest person in all the world to me.” — Chapter 19: Shen Jiu

[irrealisms]

svsss and sexual violence pt. 5: we live in a society

standard disclaimer at the beginning: i am not saying that this is the Only thing svsss is about, or that other readings are invalid; i am not intending to character-bash most of the characters here (while i will freely admit to thinking e.g. old palace master or qiu jianluo are pretty one-dimensionally shitty, lots--probably most--of the characters in this series who i mention as perpetrating SA are characters who do have depths & who i in fact like a lot! despite this meta, or perhaps because of it, my second-favorite character is luo binghe, and i am in fact a bingqiu shipper!); and, obviously, huge fucking CW for sexual abuse and adjacent topics. this section is about 1.5k words.

TABLE OF CONTENTS pt 1: shen yuan's realization of himself as a target pt 2: gender and homophobia pt 3: non-bingqiu sexual violence pt 4: shen qingqiu's body pt 5: we live in a society (you are here)

something that's universal across all three of mxtx's books is that society allows for & often approves of abuse, that invisibilized abuse of people with less power from people with more power is the bedrock society stands on; that even when society claims to disapprove of abuse, this is a smokescreen at best for attacking what (and who) it actually disapproves of. svsss...is not an exception to this. a lot of the incidents i'm about to discuss are ones i've already mentioned earlier in the series, but here i'm less interested in the specific incidents and more interested in the ways that society implicitly approves. a lot of these are sexual abuse but some of these are in fact nonsexual abuse because "society dgaf about abuse" applies fairly equally to all types of abuse in svsss.

the first and obvious example here is Shen Jiu. society, both in the universe of PIDW/SVSSS and in the ~frame story of the audience reaction to PIDW, objects to a 14-year-old slave breaking the engagement vows he made to a girl from the family that owns him so harshly they would throw him in prison/torture him (within the universe of the story) or demand for him to be castrated (in the comments section of said story). no one objects to the fact that slavery exists, or that Shen Jiu was abused; while it is ambiguous whether he was sexually abused (although I think there's strong evidence for it, as discussed in parts 3 + 4), society would not care if he had been; within PIDW universe, that's Qiu Jianluo's right, to do what he wants with his property, and within the universe where PIDW exists as a novel it would be hated as a storytelling decision the way all of Airplane's attempts at making Shen Jiu sympathetic were hated (because PIDW fandom didn't want complex villains with tragic backstories, they wanted someone they could uncomplicatedly hate).

the second example is also Shen Jiu, but the other way around--while he didn't sexually abuse Luo Binghe, nor was his abuse of LBH presented as particularly sexualized in any way (and if you've read this meta you know i am not shy about seeing technically nonsexual violence as sexualized/referencing sexual abuse in this book :P), it's another good example of how society allows for abuse? SQQ was in a position of power over LBH, so... he just gets to do whatever he wants to LBH. LBH can get revenge as an adult with a lot more power, can leverage that power & the ways SJ is vulnerable, can make it so that torturing and abusing him back is also allowed by society's rules--but when he is a kid without that power? society doesn't care! this is obviously less true on a "what did PIDW fandom care about" level than the other examples, but it's still true enough in-PIDW-universe that imho it counts!

the third example is the water prison. once again, Luo Binghe does not rape Shen Qingqiu in the water prison (although there was some very sexualized violence, shading into sexual assault). but-- SQQ was put in the water prison to be tortured at LBH's whims. if LBH had wanted to rape SQQ in there? he could have. with the material support of society. if Gongyi Xiao had been right that LBH raped SQQ there, GYX would still be disobeying his master to show SQQ kindness and break him out, and he would still end up just as killed for it. in the eyes of society, trying to help a prisoner escape the person who is raping them is worse than raping a prisoner. (identifying obviously identical problems with the prison system in the real world is left as an exercise to the reader.)

the fourth example is the old palace master. i talked about him some in part 3, but two things i want to highlight: - given that he was able to groom and abuse at least two generations, he's been doing this for a long time, and either no one noticed (even though it is obvious enough that sqq notices within a few lines of talking to him, implying that no one cared enough to look) or people did notice and, for whatever reason (some of which are even very sympathetic--certainly if i were his disciple and was mostly getting away with Not Being Abused i wouldn't want to come to his attention! but some of which are, uh, much less sympathetic) they let him, the same way people must have known about shen jiu's treatment of luo binghe and let him. because he's a powerful man, because it's his disciples and he has the authority, because, because, because. either way, this.... does not speak to a society that cares about sexual abuse. - when society learns about su xiyan's history, they blame her. they blame her for getting with tianlang-jun, they blame her for not aborting luo binghe, they assume she left her sect because she was ashamed and not because her sect hurt her. tianlang-jun is demonized (heh) even though his relationship with her was entirely consensual, because society hates him; old palace master is assumed to be innocent of any wrongdoing, because society likes him. do things eventually get figured out? yes. but the immediate reaction here is ... well, it's relevant.

last example here is moshang. again, not sexual/sexualized abuse! but through shang qinghua we get a piece of insight into demon society, rather than just human society, and what we get is... very very normalized physical abuse. shang qinghua is often going around with bruises from mobei-jun, to the point where shen qingqiu notices and is used to it. compare these two quotes, the first spoken by SQH to mobei-jun and the second from SQQ's narration:

“No one likes getting beat up every day, and no one would actually be all cheery after getting beat up every day! I’m not actually a dog! Even with a dog, if you kicked it twice a day, given enough time, it’d learn not to bother with you anymore!”

&

There was no telling what Shang Qinghua had done to piss off Mobei-Jun this time, but the corner of his lip was swelling as he gave Shen Qingqiu a pathetic smile. Shen Qingqiu couldn’t bear to look, so he shifted his gaze back to the file.

and.... the thing is, mobei-jun doesn't want to hurt sqh? when sqh gives him advice on how to woo men, he takes it; he pats sqh on the head instead of beating him, he gets sqh a cart when he's injured, he offers to let sqh hit him back. but the frequent beating is just...how demon society works, esp around the sort of power dynamic that sqh and mbj have. it's normal. and, given the demons we see, i don't actually think this is a fundamental difference of demon psychology. the demons we see who are person-y enough to Have Society are, broadly speaking...basically human? i think this is just... demon society is fine with it, because society is fine with all sorts of abuse as long as it's normal. and as we've seen in this post, it's not like human society is, uh, different in this regard.

the last thing i have to say isn't really a direct example. it's a little aside from shen yuan's internal monologue when talking to tianlang-jun about the plan to merge the realms:

The last part even sounded like rape culture logic: if you violate a person often enough, they’ll cooperate eventually; so do it first and think about the rest later.

which-- honestly i wouldn't have even thought to make that connection! but it was made for me by the book! and this is in a paragraph talking about how tianlang-jun thinks like this because he was mistreated and trapped under bai lu mountain, that he's bitter and resentful because of it, and it draws a neat little bow with our first example--shen jiu. the way that this is one way that rape & abuse culture perpetuate: someone is mistreated. they learn that this is how the world is; they pass it on. the cycle of abuse (and the breaking or attempted breaking of it) is another theme mxtx returns to over and over, in all three books, and you see that highlighted here. there's probably more to say here about TLJ's overall arc but i've worked on this meta for a long time and it is getting Really Quite Late.

if you've read all the meta (or even just this one): thanks for sticking with me through this! i really hope it was interesting & you got something out of it. i wrote. SO much in one day.

[fuckedupwizard]

someone: it's such a disservice to shen jiu's character to defang him and act like he isn't really a child abuser, or the abuse wasn't that bad, or he didn't know what he was doing, and to take away the bitterness and resentment that is a huge part of his personality. him being kind of twisted is exactly what makes him fascinating. his suffering was utterly tragic but he should not have perpetrated it onto another.

me: YES! EXACTLY! THANK YOU

someone: that's why i wish people who like him could just admit that he sucks, and he's totally pure irredeemable scum with no good qualities, and his character is NOT deep or complex. he didn't even really care about yue qingyuan, he was too selfish for that, he just wanted him for protection and when that failed to guilt him for the rest of their lives. and no universe would change this, he probably kicks puppies for fun, and

me: ok hold on now. shut up?

[zykamiliah]

My fucking confession to that fucking blog I won't waste my time submitting bc really what's even the point of talking to someone who doesn't want to open their minds and understand is that y'all came out of reading and experiencing svsss not having learnt anything.

When written within the bounds of the original genre, this kind of character was extremely difficult to handle. You could say he was scum, but he was also pitiful. But if you tried to acknowledge his pathos, his ruthlessness was real too. Characters that were both scummy and tragic always drew aggro, and they were a hotbed for wank, leading comments sections to devolve into massive flame wars. Better to hack him down into a formulaic asshole and let the protagonist step on him. Easier to write, and the readers would find it satisfying as well. (Chapter 19: Shen Jiu)

this is why writers can't write complex villains, bc you all with your moral purity takes can't handle it. bravo, you've proved mxtx right.

some of you get soooooo twisted trying to defend SJ you flatten his character and make him into a parody of himself.

some of you are so wrapped in the pity contest of "who suffered the most" to determine who has the moral highground that you don't get that you can't pit a character's pain against another character's pain. abuse is abuse is abuse. QJL was abusive for three years, SJ killed him. SJ was abusive for aprox. 5-7 years, Bingge tortured him AND killed him. And killed everyone associated to him. Somewhere down the line, I bet that in real PIDW verse someone will try to take out Bingge for all the suffering he caused. the point is that they BOTH did SHITTY THINGS, they were BOTH abusive because they DIDN'T RECEIVE ANY LOVE IN THEIR LIVES after they were abandoned. both shen jiu and bingge are scummy and tragic. BOTH OF THEM. and because of the abuse and trauma they suffered, they both had awful coping mechanisms that entailed taking out their pain on people who didn't deserve it.

and that's the whole fucking point!!! they're deliciously complex characters. they were born from the fucked-up union between the cycle of abuse and toxic masculinity. they are simultaneously constructions and deconstructions of the Villain Character. they are profoundly human as well, because they showcase the darkness of the human experience, what happens when a person transforms their pain into a weapon to hurt others.

and y'all are arguing over who is innocent? get out.

[saintone]

i've been thinking that one of the most tragical things about pidw is that it was going to end the way it ended no matter what

like, let's pretend shen jiu didn't exist for a moment.

luo binghe was a poor kid in a peak filled with nobles. even if he got into qing jing, or was smart enough to fight his way into bai zhan, he wouldn't have been satisfied.

luo binghe was said to be a white lotus, that is a white, innocent flower from the outside but his roots are filled with dirt. he was a demon, and even in svsss, being bingmei, he is obsessive, authoritarian and selfish sometimes.

even without shen jiu, luo binghe would have been bullied in speak for being a commoner, and the youngest shidi so his older martian sibling had the right to make his work harder. and even if he wasn't, his obssesive, ruthless side would have him left wanting for more, to be recognized, to be respected, to be powerful.

an important thing about pidw is that lbh was a demon, and demons take revenge tenfold bc they hold grundges.

i think that even if sj wasn't his shizun, lbg would have razed cang qiong for not giving him the recognition he thought he deserved, or for being thrown at the abyss bc he would have been murdered (or attempted to) either way once it was discovered he was a demon.

like in many ways, other cultivators weren't much better than when qingqiu (exhibit a: picking old palace master), and his values and traditions weren't that much righteous and better either. the laws were designed to defend themselves and that's it.

and this doesn't eliminate the fact that shen qingqiu truly went out of his was to make luo binghe's life a living hell. like yeah lbg would have been bullied, but sqq quite literally tortured him.

but it's kinda sad that luo binghe was going to be mistreated either way, bc as he himself says it life was unfair to someone like him, poor, orphan and half demon, abandoned by his own mother.

just like life was unfair to shen jiu.

and so the two characters that had the worst chances overall ended up destroying each other with all their might, and kinda destroying the world in that process.

like they could've been their saviours but they chose to be their doom.

[qeireinier]

I think what Original Luo Binghe did to Shen Jiu parallels what happened between Wei Wuxian and Wen Chao. Let me yap.

Look this might sound stupid to you but I just rewatched MDZS and I JUST saw some similarities with PIDW. After coming out of the Burial Mounds, WWX literally tortured WC before his death. The Burial Mounds is a place of literal torture and WWX went through HELL in it without his golden core. Because of what? Because of WC, he's the one who threw him into there.

It's an eye for an eye. WWX must've gotten his organs rearranged, bones crushed by constant attacks from walking corpses, eaten corpse fingers to survive, and many other horrors MXTX didn't mention. So WC SHOULD feel all of that, as payment for his sins to WWX and all other people he inflicted.

With LBG and SJ, the Endless Abyss is almost no different than Burial Mounds except it's festered with demonic instead of resentful energy (I think they're not really the same type?) and various types of beasts iirc. So even with his golden core, it's still harder for LBH because he barely knew how to avoid or fight them, where their weak spots are, etc. And instead of 3 months, it's 5 YEARS so it's enough time for his hatred for SJ to fester like a fairytale witch's soup. In the very beginning, he must've also gone through hell. Maybe the beasts ripped his limbs apart, stabbed his eyes, pulled his tongue out and only because of his Heavenly Demon blood that he recovered himself back (probably). It's very different from running away from resentful corpses because you KNOW just how to fight them off, even though it's just impossible for their number.

So, seeing LBH making SJ into a human stick doesn't surprise me too much. It's the case of an eye for an eye. No, it's still wrong, I'm not justifying it. I'm just making my analysis. THAT'S why it reminds me so much of WC's death.

Even both of the MCs have a demonic object in their hands, the Stygian Tiger Seal and Xin Mo. Both are untamable and capable of driving their holders insane. What differs our MC however—is that WWX has things to lose, and that's why he's often shown to be holding himself back from a killing spree. Hell, he's even the actual most righteous character in the novel.

While LBH doesn't have anything left to lose. He doesn't have a family, friends, all these wives and servants probably don't mean much on him. Also, his demon blood affects his mindset, giving his brain more "predatory instincts" as I'm gonna call it. Added with the fact that he spent more time in the Endless Abyss and how his mind had been corrupted by Xin Mo, LBH would pull a "No More Mr. Nice Guy, Heh >:)". That makes him not so kind as to give SJ the mercy of death. He probably wanted to keep SJ alive for 5 years or maybe forever til his brain finally decides "yep, that's it, go die or whatever idc anymore". Yeah, until BingggeMei extra happened and we could probably assume SJ's death is never gonna happen, but that's for another story nevermind.

However, it does mean that the latter won't hold himself back. The point where he crosses the line is when he burns down the CQMS, kills the Peak Lords, and even went so far as to merge the demonic and mortal realms. That's what differs him from WWX, so much. It's literally canonically said that he's not the nice kind of protag.

SO in conclusion—when I see people talking about how "SJ didn't deserve all that", I'm between agreeing and disagreeing. What LBG did to SJ is terribly inhumane, but that's to be expected from a demon emperor like him. Hey I'm a SJ stan, it doesn't mean my views are completely biased. Especially considering what LBG possibly went through in the Endless Abyss for five years as a mere disciple without a sword like Xuan Su.

I think this is why PIDW readers rooted for LBG, because the story was from his POV. Tragic MC, thrown into the pits of hell by his cruel master. Our perspective is widened through reading SV and we can see the tragic POV of SJ and so we start to root for him too. No, it doesn't mean that either of these 2 are completely right in their choices, the both of them are very flawed and they're trapped in this cycle of abuse, very harmful to the surroundings. We can't fully fault or justify them. Yes, they need therapists, perchance one hidden behind a very powerful barrier in case any of them decides to attack the poor therapist.

But this realization—the parallels between LBG&SJ and WWX&WC—just kind of amazes me. Okay, ted talk ends, thank you for surviving through, if you don't have any nice words to say please scroll away :(