#she forgets that they are also siblings and that Aegon may not love his wife

[b-rainlet]

helaegon anon back,

imagine burned aegon bursting into helaena’s chambers and trying to have sex with her but she is just mumbling about jahaerys and he cannot get a hard on bc his PP is burned to crisp it would be so funny but tragic at the same time

on the serious note, when the book mentioned how after jahaerys’ death helagon slept separately, in my little delusional mind I imagine he actively tried to reconcile their marriage and did not blame helaena at all. he probably showed the more affection and understanding he had ever shown her but it was too late because she was no longer receptive to his comforting touch and gentle words

this further enraged aegon and made his resolve to burn rhaenyra into a KFC bacon even stronger.

the end.

Probably cringe but everytime I think about Helaegon after b&c all I can think of is 'It's Quiet Uptown' by Hamilton.

Look at where we are Look at where we started I know I don't deserve you, Eliza But hear me out, that would be enough

If I could spare his life If I could trade his life for mine He'd be standing here right now And you would smile And that would be enough

I don't pretend to know the challenges we're facing I know there's no replacing what we've lost And you need time

But I'm not afraid I know who I married Just let me stay here by your side That would be enough

You're right, Aegon probably tried to be as comforting as possible, even if he doesn't really know how and it's rather awkward but he tries.

He probably even takes Alicent by surprise because even though Helaena is 'useless' now as a wife (unwilling to have sex with him, unresponsive, strictly against even thinking about having another child, unable to attend banquets and what not and put on a strong front) he still visits her or asks Alicent how she's doing and seems genuinely upset at the state Helaena is in because even if he lost her as his wife that's still his sister. And they will never stop being siblings.

[maidragoste]

By the way, if you want, anon, you can choose an emoji so I can identify and know which anon I'm talking to hahaha—👾 with thisss!

Also

She could have had any man, even the king but she chose you. And you pay her like that?You say you love your wife but you hurt her and now you have made her the entertainment of the court. There is no person who does not talk about her, the princess and you"

My heck—the reader chose love over duty—imagine..she's the first born and by law she can't inherit Driftmark because you know..misoginy then the queen dies and her father invites(forces her)her to be the future bride of the king( I want to believe she's 18 years old, not 14 or 12..it's an ick for me..) but Viserys notices the way she and Harwin are looking at each other so he gives them his blessing and choose Alicent.

Reader wants to be overjoyed because she's free but now she finds out with horror that the future queen is a 14 year old and worst, her cousin's best friend and she feels guilty and disgusted.

So by telling to her parents she will stay at KL to find a suitor, she befriends the queen and try to repair the relationship between Nyra and Alicent with no avail.

By the years KL's become a second home to reader, writing to her parents and sister;she's living in a fairytale until Jacaerys is born and his brothers.

A DECADE, SHE HAS LIVED IN MISERY AND HUMILATION FOR A DECADE and seems her strength are her twin boys that looked more Velaryon than Nyra and Laenor's children.

The relationship with Nyra?has grown cold and she dotes on the queen's children and NO ONE suspect that her twins are Larry's because they took after their mother's appearance but their eyes.

Then Driftmark happens and we know what will happen but the're is a new player: the reader that has taken under the wing Rhaena,like you said in the previous post, and she's securing a betrothal of his twins with Laena's daughters because she will be damned if she allows Daemon to trap her nieces and she needs to get back at Nyra for sleeping with her husband, and disrespect the memory of his younger siblings.

The Velaryons? Are by her side and they are awfully protective of her because if D&R have killed two of their children?what they would to their first born?

Let's not forget also two important allies: Larrys and Alicent—also Aegon, Helaena, Aemond and Daeron, Baela( who is a mini Daemon and loyal to reader, the Velaryons)and Rhaena because the reader is the step father who stepped up and with her Aegon may have learnt to take his duties seriously and be a good husband to Helaena;Aemond learns that he shouldn't carry his burdens alone, Helaena has someone who can understand her.

Okay okay; I'll stop you are the writer but it's good to share some ideas

👾👾👾👾

Hi Anon, I'm sorry it took so long to reply. I hope you're well 🥰

First, I think that in some post I said it too high up but for my Reader she is the younger sister of the Velaryon. Laena is the eldest, just like in the book, and Laenor is the middle brother. So Reader never had a chance to inherit Driftmark.

For your peace of mind Reader is not 12/14 when Corlys wants to make her queen and marry Viserys... But still she is a minor she is 16/17 😭🤡

I don't know if Viserys would realize that something is going on between Reader and Harwin (SORRY FOR ME THE MAN IS A DENSE. I STILL ANGRY THAT HE IS THE KING) but Reader definitely doesn't want to marry him so she confesses that she is in love with Harwin. Sure, as you say, Viserys gives them her blessing and chooses Alicent.

Of course Reader feels guilty and disgusted. Alicent is the same age as her and knows how uncomfortable she must be with the situation because she was there too. It saddens him to see how Alicent and Rhaenyra's friendship breaks down.

So Reader marries Harwin and sets out to be friends with Alicent to assuage her guilt but it doesn't take long for her to start enjoying her and appreciating her friendship with Alicent. Reader tries to patch things up between Alicent and Rhaenyra but she doesn't realize she's making it worse. Rhaenyra feels like she sided with Alicent, she feels like she lost them both, she feels out of place like she's left over. Now you spend all your time with Alicent and Aegon, you seem like you've forgotten about her. You are no longer going to fly together or invite her to go with you to Driftmark because your attention is always on Alicent. Always attached to her, always smiling at each other as if they knew a language Rhaenyra didn't.

Years pass and Jacaerys is born. Throughout Rhaenyra's pregnancy you had been by her side and pampered her. Rhaenyra felt like it was the two of you again. She felt horrible because she knew that the moment her baby was born you would never love her again. And she was not wrong. Your eyes of hers stopped being warm and you only looked at her coldly. Whenever you could, you avoided being in the same room as her. All the love that was between you two was once gone because of her.

Rhaenyra suffers as Reader raises Alicent's children as his own. Reader's upbringing definitely makes Aegon a better man, she teaches him why it's important that he fulfill his duties and how he always has to take care of his family. Helaena finds another mother in Reader, she never makes her feel uncomfortable by her dreams or her prophecies whenever she can, she accompanies her to look for new insects. Aemond knows that Reader is always there to help him with his burdens and Daeron knows that despite the distance Reader will never forget him... like his father.

[mononijikayu]

no but did people forget that otto hightower has been plotting FOR YEARS against viserys and his family so otto can advance his family??? LITERALLY we have a scene with viserys finally realizing that otto used his daughter to manipulate the king's grief about his dead wife and his child so that otto can have his daughter be queen. AND EVEN BEFORE THAT viserys points out that otto benefited the most when baelon targaryen died because that meant that otto manages to pry his hands on using weary and old jaehaerys targaryen, where even in the books otto threw alicent to jaehaerys to comfort him in his ill state. like OTTO was the damn problem and thats why he was sacked.

its not rhaenyra's fault she distrusts otto and its not rhaenyra's fault that alicent is miserable. alicent should know that. otto has spied on rhaenyra and tried to interfere in her affairs, wanting to use that piled evidences against her to undermine her already precarious position. a hand of the king is supposed to SUPPORT the heir and ADVICE them - not undermine them. when otto did that, knowing they also are family by marriage, it opened up the royal family to intrigue for all enemies and opportunists to make use of. like the crown princess being undermined means the king is being undermined meaning then that otto undermined his own daughter and grandkids at court. and yet alicent still chose to latch onto her father, as though her father wasn't the one plotting to plan out her life so he can have power.

and shes miserable because she latched onto that and her anger that rhaenyra made choices for herself against the expectation of the patriarchal society. there's a reason why rhaenyra called out alicent, because her balming rhaenyra for her unhappiness does not make her a better person in the eyes of the realm. it just shows that even then, she aided in her own unhappiness. because she chose duty over her ability to have joy, by doing duty she chose her father whose ambitions know no bounds. she should have realized that the moment her father was sacked, there might have been wrong done by him that resulted in his removal.

instead she chooses to believe that rhaenyra was wrong and that rhaenyra is the cause of her unhappiness and her troubles - which results for her to use her kids as pawns in a game which would give her agency and using that agency to gather power at court for her control on her son, to escape her father's control. she may love her kids but alicent also uses them and that can co-exist. thats the essence of book alicent as well, but book alicent really doesnt love her kids - which would have been an intriguing thing to see on screen because its literally book cersei lol

but anyway she spents those ten years languishing about lyonel strong not being partial to her, scares her son aegon with lies about rhaenyra harming him and his siblings in the future AND terrorizing rhaenyra and her family at court to the point that they decided to move to dragonstone just so they can escape alicent terrorizing them EVEN IF THAT MEANS losing rhaenyra influence at court and letting alicent bring her father control at court while viserys rots. like, yeah - she let the partriachy win and she lets the control of patriarchy make her live in hatred. like she saw too late that the patriarchy has made her its weapon and even in the end allowed it to win by using her father's power to crown aegon. and look what that causes them in the end. alas, the color of envy is green and the green that ends her entire line, forgotten.

- Parallels between Alicent and Rhaenyra.

[meanqueens]

Otto is manipulative as hell, and Rhaenyra- at this particular point- would probably not murder her siblings, BUT Daemon is somebody we’ve seen start a war, try to publicly ruin Rhaenyra and literally murder his wife in order to move up in the world. He would murder Aegon, and if Rhaenyra keeps being drawn to him the Hightowers are not being stupid for fearing the worst.

thank you for your asks, both of you!!

listen, if you're a dae/mon stan, you're a dae/mon stan; i won't deny he's a good character, me wanting to throttle him at every opportunity is proof of that. everyone should be able to love the characters that they love, and if you don't want to have to see criticism of them, that's perfectly fine; i will always try to tag appropriately so any necessary tags can be blocked. that being said, just as your love for dae/mon is valid, our critiques of him are also valid. and boy do i have critiques.

dae/mon is the wildest of cards, and he has been a negative influence on the narrative since his first appearance. it's left a bit ambiguous as to why dae/mon returned to the vale, but there were better ways to do it other than skulking up the path with a hood obscuring his face if he truly meant to make peace. his sudden appearance, combined with his suspicious silence and his true character not exactly being a secret, it was completely understandable why rhea reached for her weapon. why should she welcome the husband who demeaned and degraded her with open arms? she's a confident enough woman to ride on her own, trusting in her own abilities, to have the self-respect and not let dae/mon start any shit. love him or hate him, dae/mon ended rhea's life with that rock (and she was defiant to the end, gods love her). and it was a perfectly in-character act for him to take.

dae/mon reads to me as having very twisted "fight and flight" instincts that play into every situation. if he's pissed, he acts and then flees, or he runs, but he comes back swinging. and he's already pissed enough (in F&B canon) that alicent's children push him further down the line of succession. for as much as he may come to feel genuine affection for rhaenyra, he can never forget the throne; she might just receive the "privilege" of being taken along for his wicked schemes. he would absolutely kill aegon ii, helaena, aemond, and daeron, just as he later organizes B&C and spills the blood of alicent's kin. for power or for pride, he would do it, just as he did rhea. that's fundamental, and a disservice to downplay it.

[kellyvela]

Hi! I wanted to ask you something. Jon and Sansa thinking about having children and having domestic life with their respective partners is a strong foreshadowing for jonsa. Then there was Jeyne W who also told Cat that Robb was going to name their firstborn after Ned. While Robb is dead, it's not sure if jeyne is pregnant. Sansa didn't married to Willas and Jon will not gonna steal Val. Do you think it's foreshadowing something?

Before actually answering your question, I think we can't compare Robb and Jeyne, who willingly married, actively tried to have a baby, and were arguably in love, to Sansa and Willas (they never met, they never married, they weren't in love), and Jon and Val (they never had sex, they never married, they weren't in love).

Also, while having the wish to name their children after their late father and siblings, Sansa couldn't stop thinking about Loras, not Willas; and Jon wished Ygritte were alive so he could marry her instead of Val.

And Loras is a stand in for Jon the same way Ygritte is an stand in for Sansa.

. . .

"A king must have an heir."

Jeyne Westerling told Catelyn that Robb was going to name their firstborn after Ned???

Are you talking about this passage???

"Jeyne," she called after, "there's one more thing Robb needs from you, though he may not know it yet himself. A king must have an heir."

The girl smiled at that. "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning. I told Robb I'm sure to give him twins. An Eddard and a Brandon. He liked that, I think. We . . . we try most every day, my lady. Sometimes twice or more." The girl blushed very prettily. "I'll be with child soon, I promise. I pray to our Mother Above, every night."

—A Storm of Swords - Catelyn III

Because it was Jeyne who told Catelyn that she (Jeyne) was sure to give Robb twins to be named Eddard and Brandon, and that she thought Robb liked her idea (Jeyne's idea).

We don't know if Jeyne Westerling was, at some point, pregnant or not.

With all the Tully super fertility references, Jeyne could have been pregnant, but, as you can read in the quote above, her mother Sybell Spicer was giving her an abortifacient all the time, and sadly, that's what happened to Lysa Tully in the past... That's why a guilty Hoster Tully repeats "Tansy" in his sickbed several times, since "Tansy" was an ingredient of the abortifacient that Lysa took all those years ago...

The Lannister not only plotted to kill the King in the North, but also to prevent that said king have an heir... Sybell Spicer and the abortifacient were part of the plot.

And if there was still the slightest chance that Jeyne was pregnant with Robb Stark's heir, the Lannister would not hesitate to kill the unborn child and the mother, if necessary.

Actually, I'm afraid that in the next Book Jeyne Westerling will die anyway...

Now, Robb also used the same phrase "A king must have an heir." while later talking with Catelyn about the North's Succession, and guess who were the ones actively mentioned during that conversation? Any thoughts?

The answering is, a "Lady Lannister" (lol) and a "bastard Snow". Let's see:

"I had hoped to leave Jeyne with child . . . we tried often enough, but I'm not certain . . ."

"It does not always happen the first time." Though it did with you. "Nor even the hundredth. You are very young."

"Young, and a king," he said. "A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa … your own sister, trueborn …”

“… and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this … this folly. Do not ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

—A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

As you can see from the quote above, Robb and Catelyn were pushing to prevent Sansa or Jon from inheriting Winterfell and the North after Robb. For Robb, the problem was that Sansa was "Lady Lannister," and for Catelyn, the problem was that Jon was a bastard "Snow," and a brother of the Night's Watch.

Ironically, Robb ended up losing Winterfell and the North, and it will be precisely Sansa (the Lannister by marriage) and Jon (the bastard Snow) the ones retaking the ancestral seat and all the lands of House Stark, and I suspect they will do it together.

Indeed, Robb and Catelyn's conversation is also very telling because Robb said: "By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her". But since Sansa was married to Tyrion Lannister, Robb had to name another heir, Jon.

Robb's reasoning is a contrast to Jon's reaction to the offer of getting Winterfell and the North.  Stannis Baratheon used the same argument (Sansa's marriage to Tyrion Lannister) to convince Jon to accept his offer to become a legitimized Stark and Lord of Winterfell, Stannis even called Sansa “Lady Lannister”, but no matter what, Jon didn’t accept Stannis's offer.

And what was Jon's answer?

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Beautiful, isn't it?

And Jon and Sansa could also produce a new generation of Starks, honoring their late relatives by naming their children Eddard, Robb and Catelyn, the ones that are actually dead, because fortunately Arya, Bran and Rickon are still alive, even if Jon and Sansa believe they are all dead.

She pictured the two of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge. If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa II

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

—A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

Be still my beating heart!

. . .

So if you're wondering if the sad fate of Jeyne Westerling and Robb, who had a similar wish to Sansa and Jon's wishes, to name their children after their late father and siblings, could mean something negative for Jon and Sansa in the future. The answer is no.

[butterflies-dragons]

Loved your post on the similarities between Jon and Waymar Royce and Sansa's preference in men. I would like to add something else on the table. The Royces have Stark blood through the maternal line. Catelyn even suggested to name them as a possible heir to Robb. So Sansa really has a thing for the Stark look. This might be incestuous in nature. But isn't there a phrase that women tend to fall for men who remind them of their father? In Sansa's case it's more literal than usual lmao

Hello there! 

Thank you very much ♡

You know, when I was writing my meta, I was suggested by @lostlittlesatellites, to write about the Royces with Stark blood, but I decided not to bring the subject up because we don’t really know who they are.

I know about what Catelyn said to Robb regarding the Stark relatives in the Vale: 

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.”

“No,” Catelyn agreed. “You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son.” She considered a moment. “Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest … it might have been a Templeton, but …”

“Mother.” There was a sharpness in Robb’s tone. “You forget. My father had four sons.”

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. “A Snow is not a Stark.”

“Jon’s more a Stark than some lordlings from the Vale who have never so much as set eyes on Winterfell.”

“Jon is a brother of the Night’s Watch, sworn to take no wife and hold no lands. Those who take the black serve for life.”

“So do the knights of the Kingsguard. That did not stop the Lannisters from stripping the white cloaks from Ser Barristan Selmy and Ser Boros Blount when they had no more use for them. If I send the Watch a hundred men in Jon’s place, I’ll wager they find some way to release him from his vows.”

He is set on this. Catelyn knew how stubborn her son could be. “A bastard cannot inherit.”

“Not unless he’s legitimized by a royal decree,” said Robb. “There is more precedent for that than for releasing a Sworn Brother from his oath.”

“Precedent,” she said bitterly. “Yes, Aegon the Fourth legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed. And how much pain, grief, war, and murder grew from that? I know you trust Jon. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make Jon legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. Should he wed and breed, any sons you may have by Jeyne will never be safe.”

“Jon would never harm a son of mine.”

“No more than Theon Greyjoy would harm Bran or Rickon?”

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer’s crypt, his teeth bared. Robb’s own face was cold. “That is as cruel as it is unfair. Jon is no Theon.”

“So you pray. Have you considered your sisters? What of their rights? I agree that the north must not be permitted to pass to the Imp, but what of Arya? By law, she comes after Sansa … your own sister, trueborn …”

“… and dead. No one has seen or heard of Arya since they cut Father’s head off. Why do you lie to yourself? Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her. Jon is the only brother that remains to me. Should I die without issue, I want him to succeed me as King in the North. I had hoped you would support my choice.”

“I cannot,” she said. “In all else, Robb. In everything. But not in this … this folly. Do not ask it.”

“I don’t have to. I’m the king.” Robb turned and walked off, Grey Wind bounding down from the tomb and loping after him.

—A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

This passage is very interesting because Robb said: By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her.  But since Sansa was married to Tyrion Lannister, Robb had to name another heir.

This is a contrast with Jon.  Stannis use the same argument to convince Jon to accept his offer to be Lord of Winterfell, he called Sansa “Lady Lannister”, but no matter what, Jon didn’t accept it.  

“But, instead of Tyrion, Willas or even Robert, who pursue Sansa’s claim over her, there is a man that has been offered Winterfell and choose her over it. Among all the high lords interested in becoming the Lord of Winterfell by marrying Sansa Stark, the bastard Jon Snow refused to despoil his sister Sansa of her rights, even if her claim is the one thing he has wanted as much as he had ever wanted anything.”

“By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon said, “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa.”

—A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

Robb and Catelyn were both pushing to prevent Sansa and Jon to get Winterfell, and ironically enough, I think that Sansa and Jon will be the Starks that will retake Winterfell.

Now, about who may be the Royces with Stark blood...

“Your father’s father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest … it might have been a Templeton, but …”

This means: Ned Stark’s father Rickard had no siblings, but Rickard’s father  Edwyle, had a sister Jocelyn who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch, Benedict Royce.  

Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce had three daughters:

Daughter 1 married an Unknown Waynwood

Daughter 2 married an Unknown Corbray

Daughter 3 might have married an Unknown Templeton

See? we really don’t know who the Royces with Stark blood are. We don’t even know if they have the Stark features. We don’t even know if they are still alive… 

Also take note that Jocelyn Stark married a Royce from the junior branch, called House Royce of the Gates of the Moon.  While Waymar Royce was from House Royce of Runestone. 

So I addressed the subject only with this line:   

The resemblance between the Starks and the Royces [of Runestone] maybe has to be with both houses being descendants of the First Men.

Now back to House Royce of the Gates of the Moon.

At this point in the books, the known Royces of the cadet branch are: Nestor Royce and his children: Albar and Myranda.  Imagine Myranda having a claim to Winterfell, Alayne will hate it…

Also imagine Lyn Corbray having a claim to Winterfell, Alayne will hate it even more…

About the Templetons, we don’t even know for sure if the third daughter of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce married into House Templeton…

Now, about the Waynwoods, this is exactly why @lostlittlesatellites​ suggested me to write about the Royces with Stark blood, because at this point at the Books, Alayne is very linked with the Waynwoods. And even Harrold Hardyn’s mother was a Waynwood! Imagine Harry the Heir having not only a claim to the Vale but also to Winterfell!  Alayne will like this scenario a bit more… This is unlikely,  but it was funny to think about it… 

Harry the Heir doesn’t have the Stark Look tho.  But his Waynwood cousins do. So they could be the descendants of Jocelyn Stark and Benedict Royce.  Let see:

In the first Alayne chapter of the Winds of Winter, Sansa meets the Waynwoods and Harry the Heir:

“Lady Myranda. Lady Alayne.” Anya Waynwood inclined her head to each of them in turn. “It is good of you to greet us. Allow me to present my grandson, Ser Roland Waynwood.” She nodded at the knight who had spoken. “And this is my youngest son, Ser Wallace Waynwood.  And of course my ward, Ser Harrold Hardyng.”

(…)

Ser Roland was the oldest of the three, though no more than five-and-twenty. He was taller and more muscular than Ser Wallace, but both were long-faced and lantern-jawed, with stringy brown hair and pinched noses.  Horsefaced and homely, Alayne thought.

—The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

Ser Roland Waynwood and Ser Wallace Waynwood have three features that match the Stark Look:

Both long-faced

Both horsefaced

Both have [stringy] brown hair 

Sansa/Alyane doesn’t find the Waynwoods attractive tho, not like she fancied Ser Waymar Royce. Maybe this have to be with their other features: lantern-jawed and pinched noses.

The lack of attraction to the Waynwoods was another reason why I didn’t bring this subject up in my meta.          

In contrast, the Waynwoods seems pretty attracted to Sansa/Alayne:

“Had we known such beauty awaited us at the Gates, we would have flown,” Ser Roland said. Though his words were addressed to Myranda Royce, he smiled at Alayne as he said them.

“To fly you would need wings,” Randa replied, “and there are some knights here who might have a thing to say concerning that.”

“I look forward to a spirited discussion.” Ser Roland swung down from his horse, turned to Alayne, and smiled. “I had heard that Lord Littlefinger’s daughter was fair of face and full of grace, but no one ever told me that she was a thief.”

“You wrong me, ser. I am no thief!”

Ser Roland placed his hand over his heart. “Then how do you explain this hole in my chest, from where you stole my heart?”

“He is only t-teasing you, my lady,” stammered Ser Wallace. “My n-n-nephew never had a h-h-heart.”

“The Waynwood wheel has a broken spoke, and we have my nuncle here.” Ser Roland gave Wallace a whap behind the ear. “Squires should be quiet when knights are speaking.”

Ser Wallace reddened.  “I am no more a s-squire, my lady. My n-nephew knows full well that I was k-k-kni-k-k-kni –“

“Dubbed?” Alayne suggested gently.

“Dubbed,” said Wallace Waynwood, gratefully.

Robb would be his age, if he were still alive, she could not help but think, but Robb died a king, and this is just a boy.

—The Winds of Winter - Alayne I

And about that phrase you mentioned: “women tend to fall for men who remind them of their father,” it is true that the Asoiaf Books have plenty of incestuous undertones with the Targaryens, Cersei and Jaime, Asha and Theon, Crater and his daughters, etc. But in the case of the Starks, GRRM uses the pseudo-incest trope. After all, Jon and Arya, that are lookalikes, were intended to be in love in the so called “original outline”.

We also have the issue of the First love’s Resemblance: Sansa fell wildly in love with Ser Waymar, and Jon fell in love with a wildling girl kissed by fire.

Waymar Royce looked like a Stark. Waymar Royce was Jon’s lookalike. And Jon is Ned lookalike:

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. 

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

More about it here.

And Jon’s first love was Ygritte, a redhead, with blue-grey eyes, and to make the Tully look even more evident, Ygritte called herself half a fish:

“Ygritte punched his arm. “You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.”

—A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Sansa’s first crush having the Stark Look and Jon’s first lover having the Tully look, reminds me of Catelyn being first betrothed with Brandon Stark but marrying Eddard Stark instead.  Brandon, died like Waymar.  Ned said Jon’s is a younger version of himself.  Ned never imagined marrying Catelyn, he had a young infatuation with Ashara Dayne, but he never acted on his feelings for her, and she died.  Ned also killed Ashara’s brother Arthur.  

Sansa fell wildly in love with Waymar, but she won’t marry him, he died.  She will probably fall in love with Jon in a more mature and calmly way.  Jon Snow, after a non-con beginning, ended loving Ygritte, not a lady, that offered him a “comfort level of femininity”, but he won’t marry her, she died.  Jon will probably fell in love with Sansa, freely and willingly.    

Thanks for your message.

[vxsxnyx]

OwO 

I don’t think Visenya would be Stannis 2.0, if she were a man. here’s my take on this case:

1. Visenya and Stannis’s personalities are, surprisingly, quite different 

citing AWOIAF, Visenya is described as “a voluptuous, sensual, and passionate woman, Visenya was also stern, serious, and unforgiving” 

while Stannis is said to be “a serious, stubborn, rarely-forgiving, hard man with a strong sense of duty and justice” and “he is proud and protective of his honor” also “has never had the affection of nobles or small folk” and more importantly, “Even in his youth, Stannis had been an introverted child, who was mature beyond his years, solemn and joyless”. he was also uncomfortable of women, even his own wife

see? I don’t think Vis was solemn or joyless or uncomfortable around her husband or anyone else—from what stated in TWOIAF and F&B, she was all fire and blood. unlike Stan who prefers not to deal with anyone unless it’s commanding army from the vanguard, Vis is also a great diplomat, as shown by her ability to create a Kingsguard, which is consisted by small folk and nobles alike, and her acts of diplomacy especially during the War of Conquest and during Maegor’s Campaign. I can totally see how you compare these two through the words ‘unforgiving’ and ‘serious’, but other than that, he is much more than her when it comes to the lack of both diplomacy and being a ‘passionate’ individual 

2. the shaping of their adult personas were completely different:

nearly the entire factor that shaped Stannis’s steely character was Robert. ever since they were children, there had been a lack of attention from Robert for Stannis, and this is even stated in the AWOIAF: “Stannis is increasingly embittered by the lack of affection he receives from Robert, even though he serves the king as well as he can.” there was even an accident involving their pets, Proudwing (Stannis’s goshawk) which was mocked by Robert as ‘Weakwing’ (whilst he himself owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap). Stannis is said to always be in his brother’s shadow, for “whatever Stannis did, Robert had done first and better” 

while only a little portion of Visenya’s childhood has been revealed, we do know that she and Aegon trained together when they were small, and that she and Aegon together visited the Citadel of Oldtown and Arbor. they are even said to have hawked together. in the later years, though they argued back and fro, it was written multiple times that Aegon heeded Visenya’s advices, such as the time she scolded him for not wearing armour and the time she proved to him to find a better guard (hence the birth of Kingsguard). even after the demise of Rhaenys (my bae), leaving Visenya as the sole wife, sister, and queen, Aegon still refused a third wife or even a paramour. beforehand, she and Rhae were also given the charge of the governance by Aegon

to conclude!

I can completely understand that many may see Vis and Stan synonymous due to them being the most stern, no-nonsense, and serious one out of the rest of their siblings, but Stannis’s personality is very much consisted of bitterness, sadness, and anger due to the lack of love and attention given to him during childhood (mainly by Robert, whose shadow Stan has to live under); Visenya in her childhood, from the little things we can amount, does not seem to be bitter, unloved, and ignored at all—she had her own dragon, given the permission for a sword practice with her brother (who was the heir of their family), and had a commanding presence even from the beginning of our knowing. she is more diplomatic, has a sense of humour (remember her personal fool, Lord Monkeyface?), and knows how to handle people without forgetting her strictness and fiery nature; Stannis, as written in the book, ‘is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends.’ in my opinion, Visenya is fire and Stannis is more of ice.

anyways!

if we gender swapped the trio, then we’d have a harsh and cold-looking warrior, a flirty and handsome dragon rider, and an enigmatic beautiful maiden; it CERTAINLY would be a whole different, but interesting story!

—thank you for the ask! 💖

[samwpmarleau]

Why do people want Jon to be legitimate so bad? It's almost like they're buying into the stigma that being a bastard is bad and something to fix. And like you said, it's as simple as Rhaegar was married, Lyanna betrothed, and polygamy illegal. He's a bastard. And I really doubt Lyanna would be so naive (well her running away in itself is naive but different context imo) as to believe 'marrying' Rhaegar before her gods would somehow be noble or recognized.

Oh man. I have THINGS TO SAY.

For many people, I think he’s just a special snowflake and they want him to be legitimate so that he’s not “tainted” by bastardy or whatever and he gets to have Everything He’s Always Wanted™.

But also, I think it’s for how much of an identity crisis Jon has had with being a bastard and the irony that this scenario would bring to it. We’re inside Jon’s head so thoroughly and thus are keenly aware of how for his entire life he’s been at odds with his status, especially since he’s not the typical bastard. Catelyn is frigid towards him not because he’s illegitimate, but because Ned brought him home and has raised him alongside Robb, completely ignoring the shame it brings upon his wife.

Yet, Jon’s not the same as Robb — he has the same basic education, but he’s never been in line for Winterfell and by virtue of his very birth there was always an insurmountable divide between him and his siblings. Except for as much as Jon dislikes his place, he abides by it well — even when he’s presented with what he used to dream of (though note it says “later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams … even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal”), to become an actual Stark, he refuses it because he knows it would be a farce and that Winterfell belongs to Sansa, not him.

It stems too from him having no idea who his mother was. Obviously Ned can’t tell him the truth, but he doesn’t even tell him a lie. Was his mother a whore? A merchant’s daughter? Ashara Dayne? Wylla? Who was she? Jon (understandably) desperately wants her to be a respectable woman, but he’s told absolutely nothing about her so even that is merely a hope.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The sad thing here is that we know Jon’s mother was beautiful, highborn, and kind, but Jon doesn’t. And he thinks of this constantly:

I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

Interestingly, his mentions of her fade as the series goes on, as he accepts who he is. He didn’t have any friends in Winterfell save (most of) his family, yet at the Wall he’s surrounded by people he considers not only friends, but brothers. Who actually like him. Then, where once he had thought he could never achieve any high position, he is elected Lord Commander. Sure, that command is of the Night’s Watch and not Winterfell, but the position has been held by many respectable men, and no one ranks higher than he does. He is in charge. People listen to him.

Enter that irony. For five books we have Jon slowly growing into himself, finding love (even if it’s dubious consent love) and friendship and honor and repute despite being a bastard, then we find out his parents were not only married but his mother was a Stark and his father was the Targaryen crown prince. If circumstances were different, Jon would have grown up as third in line to the Iron Throne behind Rhaegar and Aegon. But that could only happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, 100% legally, and if they could prove it and/or anyone actually believed them — it’s not enough that they simply had him, because then he could only ever be a legitimized bastard, who may have come before the girls in succession, we don’t really have precedent to say, but may equally have come dead last after Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Dany (possibly even Rhaella?).

They also focus on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, and claim that he must be legitimate because then that title wouldn’t fit. This despite the fact that Dany is likely the “Prince” That Was Promised — 

“No one ever looked for a girl,” [Aemon] said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. … Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

— and that Jon would still have princely blood even if he were a bastard. Both because Rhaegar lived and died as one, and because if everyone had lived and Jon were legitimized, he would then also be a prince, though not trueborn.

And we mustn’t forget that much of this bullshit has to do with people’s perceptions of Elia as well. Everyone and their grandmother says she would have been fine with it because she’s ~Dornish~ and Dornish people take ~paramours~ and so she wouldn’t care.

Never mind that the last time a Martell married a Targaryen, a Targaryen bastard set off five generations of war, the last of which occurred right on Elia’s doorstep and in which (probably) her uncle Lewyn earned his stripes.

Never mind that Rhaegar was not Dornish and by using the “paramour” excuse he would be disgustingly appropriating a culture to which he doesn’t belong.

Never mind that Rhaegar fathering a bastard, even an un-legitimized one, would present an extreme threat to Elia’s children. She’s Dornish, people are racist as hell towards her people (not to mention ableist towards her specifically), and love the Starks — what happens if Westeros decides one day they’re not into having a half-Dornish king and instead back Jon? What happens if Lyanna isn’t content with her son playing second fiddle?

What happens if Rhaegar decides Jon is a better choice, especially if he changes his mind about Aegon having the song of ice and fire, and either sets Aegon and Rhaenys aside or declares Jon his heir over Aegon? Brandon was betrothed to a Tully, Ned was warded with Robert in the Vale, and Tywin hated Aerys — that’s a ridiculously powerful bloc that could oppose Elia’s children, who would have only Dorne and maybe a handful of other houses in support.

Elia would never be on board with that. I could see her putting up with Rhaegar having a mistress, because almost every guy in this series has one, but not a highborn one, and not having a child on one. And the way he went about it? By abandoning a newly postpartum Elia who nearly died giving birth to an heir who looked exactly like him, running off with the 15-year-old only daughter of a Lord Paramount, not leaving so much as a note or letting Lyanna tell her family she’s all right, disappearing for over a year, not returning even when Brandon and Rickard were killed or when war broke out or when his wife and children were taken hostage, then being so overconfident about winning on the Trident that he lost in gruesome fashion.

He caused not only the downfall of his own house, but crippled the Starks (Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all die, then Benjen takes the black shortly after the war) and the Dornish (10,000 spears were extorted from Doran, Elia was raped and murdered, their children were brutally killed, Lewyn was killed in battle, Arthur was killed, and Ashara committed suicide), put the Baratheons and Lannisters in power, and ruined the prophecy as he’d interpreted it.

Had Rhaegar not been so politically braindead, none of that would have happened. So no, Elia would have hated him for that, not signed off on it. Fuck that noise. People often talk about paramours as though every Dornish person takes one and that it’s not cheating, which is simply not true. Oberyn had one, but Oberyn was not married, the occasional additional liaisons he took were not only approved by Ellaria, but they participated in those liaisons together, and he and Ellaria were in a committed relationship for 14-plus years. 

We also really don’t have that many examples of Dornish people taking paramours at all:

Ellaria

Neither she nor Oberyn were married, and they were both completely devoted and faithful to one another.

Old Lord Yronwood’s that Oberyn slept with

Which, incidentally, we don’t know that Yronwood was cheating at all. Perhaps Yronwood was a widower, or his wife was fine with it, or his wife joined in, we don’t know the details.

Lewyn

Hey guess what! He wasn’t married, and was completely faithful to her, exactly like Oberyn.

Daemon Sand

There were rumors that he and Oberyn were lovers (which, gross, on so many levels), but we have only the one mention and no proof. Arianne maybe counts here as well, depending on your definition.

Drinkwater twins

Cletus suggested Quentyn take one of them as a paramour after he was married, but again we don’t know the details of that hypothetical, and Quentyn rejected it anyway.

Many Dornishmen took women of the Rhoynar for paramours; however, presumably that would have been more for purposes of alliance and to permanently join the two races.

Sylvenna Sand

She was a whore in King’s Landing who was the paramour of Essie, who was also a whore, so yet again, no adultery there.

Now, the text often refers to mistresses as paramours, but they are used interchangeably outside of Dorne. Within Dorne, they’re a separate thing. And, as you can see from the above, no one except maybe Lord Yronwood was married.

Rhaegar was. With two small children. Lyanna was betrothed. Their affair was full-blown adultery, none of this “paramour” business. Once more I say: fuck that noise.

Also, like … GRRM once said Rhaegar was a “lovestruck prince” and Barristan said he “loved his lady Lyanna” (neither sentiment is one I believe), but we’re never told anything of Lyanna’s thoughts on the matter. I am baffled as to where people get the idea she would agree to a marriage with Rhaegar.

She wanted out of her betrothal to Robert because he was not faithful, why would she enter into polygamy?? Why would she agree to get pregnant at 15?? She’s compared to Arya constantly — can you see Arya ever doing all of that?? It makes no sense!

Not that they could even get married. The Faith prohibits polygamy, and we have no examples of people in the North (save beyond the Wall, which is not in the Seven Kingdoms) ever having polygamous marriages either. So even if there were some kind of “ceremony,” it would never hold up.

Anyway. People are dumb.