#she does have that thing with taena going on

[lemonhemlock]

Hiiii lemon 👋🏻

I was trying to make an oc for Cersei and Jamie and talked about it with a couple friends to bounce ideas with and they all had the same thing to say "you really think Cersei would love someone!? she literally killed Melara for daydreaming about Jamie..." And this kinda made me a bit...

Anywayyyyy personally I think yes Cersei can be delusional, heartless... But that's part of her charm !!! And really people would not be as harsh on her if she was a man.

Like imagine a boy killing his bestie over liking his sister/lover... People would call that a romantic gesture lol.

Which is why I'm here to ask what would you personally do if you were making Cersei/Jamie a female love interest.

Hi, anon! There's quite a lot to unpack in your message. Cersei and Jaime could have the potential to love other people. But certainly their insular upbringing and dysfunctional family made them overly reliant on each other to the point of co-dependency. So I think that if you want to create realistic OCs for them, you should give them traits that tend to their greatest needs or inadequacies.

For Cersei, it's perhaps more easily identifiable the kind of husband who could make her happy - it's basically who she imagines Rhaegar to be. A noble, handsome, gallant young man who would be devoted to her, treat her kindly and involve her in his daily political dealings. Both Cersei and Jaime struggle with gender roles. Cersei wants to be considered a leader and valued for something other than her reproductive abilities, she wants to be respected and not discarded the replaced the minute her body becomes "irrelevant". So power-sharing with a husband who values her personhood and intelligence would help to heal her accumulated trauma. What Cersei yearns for in a partner is not so different than what any woman would wish for herself.

With Jaime, it's more complicated, because you somehow how to prevent him from joining the Kingsguard. Because 1. he would not be able to have a functional relationship when his vows are in direct contradiction and 2. if Cersei is still Queen somehow in this AU, he'd only be miserably sniffing around her skirts, entangling himself in her business, getting inevitably jealous and miserable and keeping her from taking her marriage seriously. Other than that, Jaime has no true interest in politics and he bores easily, so an ideal wife for him would be one with good social and administrative skills, who could handle the tasks Jaime would consider tedious in his position as (eventual) ruler of Casterly Rock. He also has a quick with and is quite funny, so I think he couldn't be truly content if his wife didn't share those qualities. So, IDK, some combination between Sansa and Aunt Genna. :))

Ultimately, I think they could really only reach a true level of contentment if their spouses help them fulfill their societal roles. They're too entrenched in their identities as Lannisters to ever run off to the Free Cities and do whatever and too comfortable to renounce all privileges and live the lives of regular peasants or merchants. Feudalism offers few opportunities that provide safety and comfort; they can't exactly became finance bros or get a job at the business factory to support themselves or engage in some other bullshit activity that's little work and high reward, so staying in the socio-economic sphere of their rich family is their best bet.

Cersei has this fantasy of swords and mail, but she wouldn't have been happy as a knight, with the pushback that comes with true non-conformity. Equally, Jaimie already did what he wanted and eschewed his role as heir, but life as a perpetual knight doesn't seem to bring him satisfaction either. They're not revolutionaries out to dismantle the status-quo and campaign for change, but, in the absence of that, society is not going to just simply accommodate their idiosyncrasies just because it's them. And they don't really like it either when they find out the world doesn't bend around their wishes! (affectionate)

[daenystheedreamer]

omg the one ask about your modern au reminded me of your keeping up with the baratheons thing i loved it so much!!!! do you have any other ideas/hcs for it???

AHHH KUWTB i missed them... ok so i love the idea of like real housewives of king's landing existing and cersei being on a season of it and thats how she starts being famous for being famous yknow.

RHOKL cersei season: cersei, taena merryweather, tanda stokeworth, falyse stokeworth, lysa arryn, selyse florent, alerie tyrell. they're not KL technically but i would also add genna lannister, ellaria sand and sybell spicer.

i think this lineup would cause some astronomical levels of cunt and slay, but cersei is definitely the breakout star. marge and olenna show up as side characters. lysa exits the show dramatically. selyse falls for MLM scams and is forced to leave when she tries hawking them on facebook. the real actual cops get called when cersei and ellaria grab wine glasses and turn them into shanks and start trying to stab each other. there's soooo many cocaine and drunk driving arrests.

KUWTB is a RHOKL (jesus christ ive got asoiaf acronym brain) spinoff because cersei was so fucking insane and the ratings were so good everytime she like caused a physical fight. taena is the ONLY person from RHOKL that cersei doesnt have personal violent beef with (ellaria and cersei have restraining orders) and she shows up o KUWTB.

also i like the crack theory that taena's son is a robert bastard and i think it would be VERY funny for that scandal to play out.

myrcella likes RHOKL she thinks its funny and she liked wearing pretty dresses when she shows up on the show. joffrey fucking hates it so much he's like everyone at school thinks im GAY cos of this. tommen is just excited cos 'mummy's on tv!' robert does not give a fuck

also taena and cersei go on a season of westerosi celebrity big brother and have implied lesbian sex in an episode

[atopvisenyashill]

[title redacted for legal reasons]

i actually am most interested in maegor/rhaena but i’ve never found a fic i liked for them (except this noncon one here, it’s mostly porn with some slight character introspection with maegor) and also i’m obsessed with rhaenyra/viserys but ditto there, there’s not even good porn of those two. there’s also not any cat/robb which imo is a travesty considering i am convinced that michelle fairly and richard madden fucked nasty on set. i find ramsay/theon interesting aesthetically but i need some sort of emotional buy in from both parties and i just don’t read ramsay as being obsessively in love with theon so it’s not super interesting to me to read about. which leaves the one that people actually write fic about and coincidentally is the one i’m most interested in.

BUT. the problem i have here is that most aligon fic tends to go the route of aegon ordering alicent into ~something fucked up after he’s crowned, which isn’t to say this can’t be done in a way i really enjoy, like this one here that i think is just amazing, seriously it’s actually the one i think about the most, aegon’s dialogue just rings in my head. but most of these involve alicent actively fighting aegon (which is like, probably the point tbf) but on an emotional level i’m more interested in aegon attempting to seduce her than just forcing himself on her.

that’s part of why i really like this series, because it’s very much a back and forth dynamic where they are re-enacting their traumas on each other but like, willingly repeating the cycles over again against each other until they’re so disgusted they can’t go on (don’t read it unless you want your day ruined tho lmao).

there’s this one that basically does exactly what i’m bitching about tho - aegon forcing himself on alicent right as he’s being made king - but this one has it focus more on the moment she doesn’t tell him she loves him and then doesn’t just turn immediately into noncon porn, it really digs into the two of them and the structural issues surrounding consent, which is why i like it. i realize it’s maybe a big ask for well written incestuous sexy character pieces, but that’s why i’m pointing out the ones i like lmaooo because this one does a thing that’s also very common - aegon getting fixated on alicent’s seven pointed star necklace - and it’s also really sex heavy while still saying something about the characters (besides “i think tom and olivia are hot” i mean). i think the more forceful behavior from aegon works here because he is trying to seduce her, and also trying to punish her for hurting him. i’m also a sucker for fics that try to work within canon, taking something this fucked up and complex and pretending it’s happening just offscreen. idk, i think that’s fun!

there’s also this one, mostly it’s sex but it’s fucked up interesting sex and also from aegon’s pov which is rare tbh most of them focus on alicent, but i liked seeing the play of anger, sexual violence, and intimacy in his head here.

most of the rest of it that i’ve found is much more on the noncon side and like,,,,,, that’s just not the appeal to me for this one, it’s about them deciding to drown together, it is important and integral to the dynamic that alicent is at least a little into it and being forced to confront both her own revulsion towards targaryen incest practices as well as her own complicity in that cycle continuing to harm her own children, and aegon can’t just be the aggressor to alicent’s madonna here, he needs to be purposefully trying to pull her in because he’s conflated sex and violence and family and romance, and wants her to want him back. alicent has gotta be eroticizing her own disgust and reenacting her time as a teenage mother otherwise what are we even doing here!!!!

cersei/taena doesn’t count as dead dove that’s just regular fucked up lesbian shenanigans it’s fine. i see the appeal of otto/alicent but rhys doesn’t do anything for me i think he has negative charisma i’m sorry. i don’t think i’m interested in any others tbh, the main draws are maegor/rhaena and alicent/aegon.

[grennseyelashes]

Am I going insane or, well, okay this part isn't the insane bit but it's important: we should probably acknowledge that we're specifically given a cipher we may choose to use for when Jaime's having a dream or not (two hands Vs one hand), and acknowledge that the one with Brienne falls firmly in the camp of "definitely a dream" according to that, (also supported by her body in the dream physically being different, and more like Jaime's view of how women "should" look, and her also speaking a line he himself says earlier, "I mislike this place"), but... BUT... (this is the maybe just me barking up the wrong tree bit lol):

What about Cersei visiting him while he's standing vigil for Tywin? He's incredibly sleep deprived at that point, has been almost reliving different moments from his life leading up to it, is "taken by suprise" by the sun coming up afterwards (was he asleep? unconscious? hallucinating/having a "vision"?) and as far as I can see (although PLEASE DO correct me if I'm wrong and this is just nothing lol) we never see Cersei remember that moment? And it's also... incredibly out of character for her? Like... she really Does Not sneak around in disguises as an adult :/ that ain't her style :/ :/ :/

It's also got INCREDIBLE similarities to the vision he has of his mother at the end of the same book too. Much of the text is the same, most noticeably the "what would you have of me" and the last word echoing as mememememe... Plus as bookends these two work very neatly, as Cersei (or "Cersei"?) asks him for help, and he refuses, and at the end we return to the same scene to see Joanna (although he doesnt name her) basically telling him now it is too late.

I need to check this more thoroughly because maybe I just missed Cersei also remembering it (very possible), or something else that rules out it also being a vision (or supports the idea) but I have been trying to see if there are any instances of strange magical consequences of Jaime getting Cersei's blood on the altar of the Mother, and this would be an interesting possible answer to that tbh.

The time we know of when Cersei did put on a disguise to go see Jaime is interesting to remember here too tbh. We only know of it from his perspective, but from the information available that was the moment when he agreed to, rather than inherit Casterly Rock and marry someone else and have children, live his life by Cersei's side (although this doesn't quite go to plan ofc). So if that visit was a "vision", and the Cersei he sees there is representative of that moment in time between them, the thing that's being bookended is specifically the portion of his life where he made his choice to protect her.

Which brings one aspect of the first (possible) "vision" into a very interesting light, as Cersei is absolutely drenched, and along with Jaime's dream featuring the water below Casterly Rock, and whatever happened with Melara "falling" into a well, we also have very significant bath moments with both Jaime and Brienne, and consistently (if in the background) with Cersei and Taena, and above all this curiously overlooked aspect of the Valonquar prophecy itself:

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

Not sure what to make of any of that, other than it seems the waters under Casterly Rock are being hinted at coming into play, and that it lends a little more credence to the idea that sept visit may have been a vision, or something vision-esque. Or perhaps it was real, and his vision of Joanna functioned as a bookend anyway.

Hmmm. Much to consider.

[daenerysstormreborn]

@elegantwoes

@atopvisenyashill

Yes yes all of this!! Great tags!! Cersei sexually abused Taena but taking sexual advantage of women is not like a core theme in Cersei’s narrative. Cersei is a villain through and through but I think that her treatment of Taena isn’t treated quite the same as Tyrion’s treatment of women because of the motivation. Tyrion is spiteful and in the passage I put in this post, he specifically gets a sexual thrill out of terrorizing this woman. Abusing women and exploiting sex workers is recurrent behavior for him. Cersei gets no thrill from hurting Taena. Cersei is trying to understand why Robert hurt her. She’s trying in her own twisted way to see what thrill Robert got from exerting that power over her, and she doesn’t find it. THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE WHAT SHE DID. Don’t mistake me in this. That’s just why I think it’s treated differently. A single incident committed by a true villain vs a pattern of behavior by a more morally grey character. Cersei isn’t a misogynist. She wishes she was a man not because she hates women, but because she thinks she deserves the positions of power that are only afforded to men. She’s an evil, selfish woman who does horrible things to people, and some of them are women, but she isn’t motivated by misogyny.

The morality of the actions of grey characters is also just far more interesting to discuss than those of villains. We know Cersei is evil. There’s no debate to be had. She does not act in the interest of any other person except maybe her children, but even then, she struggles to differentiate what is in their best interest versus what’s in hers. It reminds me of a post I saw a long time ago complaining about how people are quick to point out the moral failings of Rhaegar during the rebellion instead of talking about Tywin and Gregor. But again, it’s just like… duh. Tywin and Gregor are on the list of the most evil characters who have committed the worst and most atrocities. Few characters look to Tywin as a hero and none of them look to Gregor as one. Whereas Rhaegar is complex. Many characters admire him and think of him as a hero. Even Ned doesn’t hate him. Of course more people are going to discuss his morality over Gregor’s. Gregor is a rapist and child murderer. Yep, he sure did that, he sure is evil. Discussion over. See? Not much to be said.

I think a lot of people also get a bit confused and think that liking one villain as a character but hating another means you believe the villain you hate is more evil. I hate characters who are violent misogynists, predators, and rapists because that sort of misogyny has touched my life personally. It’s a matter of personal experience and opinions, not moral condemnation. It’s pretty normal to have stronger negative feelings towards villains who call to mind the things that have hurt us personally. “I personally do not like this character because of their actions” =/= “I think this character is more evil than characters I do like and I’m judging you if you’re a fan.”

“You don’t like Tyrion because he’s a man you don’t like Tyrion because he’s ugly you don’t like Tyrion because he’s disabled wah” no actually I don’t like Tyrion because of his attitude towards women. I think he’s a product of his environment and I do feel sympathy for him. The way he’s been treated all his life is horrific and Tywin Lannister is a monster. Tyrion is intelligent and funny and a brilliant strategist, and his wisdom is very valuable. But his attitude toward women is unforgivable. I don’t like Tyrion because of shit like this:

The girl’s mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.

“I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer.

“If it please m’lord.”

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

—Tyrion I, ADwD

He doesn’t give these women his empathy. He takes delight in making this woman feel fear. He takes delight in her hatred of him. It’s rapey. My ire in this way is not reserved for Tyrion, of course. I feel the same way about Theon and Victarion, although they’re not main characters like Tyrion, so I don’t feel as strongly about them. That said, he’s not even close to my least favorite major character. That honor is reserved for Littlefinger’s groomer ass

[sayruq]

it's funny how this fandom likes to dismiss cersei as just always being paranoid when in agot she tells jaime she worries robert will try to pass her over for a younger woman. She was right to be worried - the tyrells are in the background trying to get robert interested in margaery, robert doesn't love cersei let alone respect her and doesn't want to be married - you don't think if the opportunity didn't present itself he wouldn't try to discard cersei? OK

that's the thing about cersei- she's right about a lot of things

the tyrells

she tries to warn tyrion about varys because tyrion doesn't really consider that varys has his own agenda

why ned agreed to become robert's hand

tyrion as a threat to her

varys as a threat

the need for the crown to have its own fleet, etc.

she's wrong about a lot too but usually with good reason

stannis would obviously be a greater threat to her and tommen than some greyjoy king. euron is unknown in the mainlands to anyone who doesn't remember fighting him during the greyjoy rebellion and as long as he is distracting the tyrells, cersei wouldn't mind. in her mind, there are many threats towards her children and herself, she's going to prioritise keeping them safe over the realm

kevan lannister would remove her from king's landing and he doesn't know the prophecy and what cersei is trying to prevent, he doesn't understand the stakes like she does

men like aurane waters and orton merryweather don't have the backing to undermine cersei so putting them in the small council makes sense. at the end of the day, cersei has power than them- as queen regent, as lady of the rock and queen mother. she wouldn't have to bargain and threaten just to get anything done. she also wanted to make sure none of them were beholden to the tyrells or the other lannisters

with tommen's legitimacy being questioned, getting him crowned and getting rid of the sparrows in the streets (can't have another riot) is worth making a deal with high sparrow. i mean eventually the lannister army will return so the faith militant can't be that disruptive, can it? (see mace tyrell getting margaery back with just the presence of his army)

aurane waters kept reminding cersei of her days before she met robert. abuse victims romanticising the time before they met their abuser is pretty normal. cersei is typically wary of people but by the time she meeta aurane waters and taena merryweather, she's deeply lonely, frightened and in desperate need of useful allies. aurane presents himself as such- he has useful information, he is witty and charming, he doesn't disagree with her. i also think people have overexaggerate how much cersei likes him

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though.

his main role was to fill a seat in the small council, it's only after that did he start asking for a fleet. if cersei expected everything to fall apart like it did, she wouldn't have handed him the keys to the new ships that were built.

but the fandom would have you believe that cersei wakes up cross eyed, her mouth drooling as she struggles to read simple sentences.

[westerosoliviapope]

Confession: Nymeria Sand is my favorite character in the Scandal Westeros Universe.

She leapt off the page from the beginning, which is why she's the first member of the Sphinx Consultants team that you meet in "It's Handled." On the surface, she's a fast talking, designer-clad hot girl. But as I wrote more, she showed up as observant, wise, and a fierce protector of those she loves.

And when I finally told her love story with Jennelyn Fowler? She knocked me off my feet. I knew she wouldn't have a typical "happily ever after" (few characters in this universe do, it's not my thing), but I LOVED the friendship, affection, and attraction between her and Jenn.

It was never about control for her. Her pleasure came from being a safe space for her tightly-wound friend to let go. She's never felt that overwhelming instinct to protect or care for another sexual partner. "Only you...only ever you" she'd promised Jenn and she meant it. She'll stick to the freedom of taking discipline going forward. Much less work that way. 

Here are a few of my favorite #Scandal!Nymeria moments:

Recruiting Brienne to the Sphinx Consultants' Team:

“I enjoy foreplay as much as the next girl, Brienne, but I am not asking if you want the job because we both know you do. No matter what you say, you want more for yourself than busting your ass in the name of some Ken doll you diddle yourself to when you go home at night. So, Cinderella. You can keep scrubbing Renly’s floors hoping someone will make you the belle of the ball or you can let Fairy Godmother Sarella make you a warrior in a suit.” 

When Sarella Catches Nym, Obara, and Jon Watching Prince Viserys' Sex Tape:

Nym, who actually has a bag of microwave popcorn in her lap, turns her head sideways to follow the action as the Prince guides Taena into another position. “No wonder he is such a slut. Slinging a cock like that is a community service.”

Giving Sansa a Pep Talk After the Team Fixes Her Divorce from Joffrey:

"In the next few years, your therapists and people you love will treat you like a victim. They mean well, but do not let them. "You married a brute who did horrific shit that you did not deserve—that is a fact. But it does not have to define the rest of your life. Do not let anyone make you feel small. Joffrey was small. You? Are a She-Wolf.” 

Teasing the Wolf Out of Jon:

“I’m guessing you’re used to sliding your hands into some pink cotton blend travesty purchased at the mall while cuddling on the couch over pizza, beers, and a movie you’re pretending to watch, so I’ll warn you—before you get all worked up imagining you can handle me—that this...” she slowly runs a black stiletto nail up her thigh. “...isn’t that.”

Jon’s jaw clenches. It’s subtle, but she sees it. She’s hit a nerve. 

Good. 

Correcting Jon's Assumption About Where He Ranks for Her, All-Time

“Humph,” Nymeria pouts. “You are no fun.” 

Feeling nature call, Jon rises from his seat and winks. “Nym, we both know I’m the most fun you’ve ever had.” 

She squints. “That honor belongs to a pretty blonde in Skyreach but I will give you top five. Top two cock, for sure.” 

Welcoming Brienne Back to the Team:

The click of stilettos accompanied by Nym greeting her with “Well, if it isn’t G.I. Jonquil?" in her patented Dornish drawl makes Brienne smile. 

Her Role as the Big Sister:

When it comes to the general welfare of Oberyn’s older brood, four women from four mothers with distinct upbringings and issues to accompany them, Nymeria Sand is the keeper of the keys.

It’s her job to notice when Obara goes too many days without showering because occasionally, she has PTSD relapses from being waterboarded by a Qarthene drug lord.

To call Tyene and dish about their sexcapades to make sure she’s staying on the healthy side of her sadism fetish instead of taking out her rage and abandonment issues on her poor husband’s ass.

To note the dryness in Sarella’s normally flawless skin and the lines around her eyes as signs that she’s holding herself together with red wine, coffee, and 90 hour work weeks.

And if you think a former assassin and a Type A Domme are a lot to handle, try telling a know-it-all workaholic with a 154 IQ that she either needs to talk about her feelings or get a facial, get fucked into a coma, and get over it.

[sansacherie]

I agree with @agentrouka-blog response to their question on Arya and Pia. It’d be really unfair to except a 10-year-old to grasp that Pia is actually being exploited. Heck, there are adult readers who’d have trouble understanding this. Arya is obviously disgusted and fearful of rape, but at the same time I sense she might think that rape is inherently violent (i.e., her overhearing the story of Layna’s rape) which is why she might have such thoughts on Pia- which again, is not her fault.  She does not know better.   From Arya’s perspective, Pia is willingly sleeping with these men.

This then got me thinking about Sansa. Rape unfortunately has not been absent from Sansa’s chapters but at the same time she’s also seen the other side – where women have been in control of their own sexuality.  

Cersei

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. 

Here,  Cersei is telling Sansa that sex is something that women can use as a weapon. When it comes to Sansa disapproving/disagreeing or hating Cersei for something, it’s usually shown in her thoughts/words- i.e., her calling Cersei “evil and cruel” or contradicting Petyr when he jokingly calls Cersei kind. In this instance, we get Sansa’s shock but at the same time it’s clear that she doesn’t feel disgusted at Cersei in the way she is for pretending to care about her.

Myranda

"Much better. I fear I must apologize to you. You will think me a dreadful slut, I know, but I bedded that pretty boy Marillion. I did not know he was a monster. He sang beautifully, and could do the sweetest things with his fingers. I would never have taken him to bed if I had known he was going to push Lady Lysa through the Moon Door. I do not bed monsters, as a rule." 

…

Despite herself, Alayne found herself warming to the older girl. She had not had a friend to gossip with since poor Jeyne Poole. "Do you think Ser Lothor likes her as she is, in mail and leather?" she asked the older girl, who seemed so worldly-wise. "Or does he dream of her draped in silks and velvets?"

Here we have Sansa/Alayne conversing with the vivacious Myranda, who says that Sansa will likely think her a slut for sleeping with Marillion. I think it’s meant to be ambiguous on when this occurred- did it occur before her marriage, or during? Or even after her husband’s death, which would still be enough to give Myranda such a name in some people’s eyes?

Instead of fulfilling Myranda’s prediction, we get Sansa “warming” to Myranda. In contrast, we have a pretty similar scene with Cersei and Taena, but Cersei reacts differently.

Taena laughed. "My lord is more bountiful than dangerous, this is so. Yet . . . I hope Your Grace will not think the less of me, but I did not come a maid entire to Orton's bed."

You are all whores in the Free Cities, aren't you? That was good to know; one day, she might be able to make use of it. "And pray, who was this lover who was so . . . full of danger?"

Catelyn & Lysa

You said it was my mother you loved. But of course, Lady Catelyn was dead, so even if she had loved Petyr secretly and given him her maidenhood, it made no matter now.

Tears ran down her aunt's puffy red face. "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of pennyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me . . ."

With her mother and aunt, Sansa is told that both of them supposedly lost their virginities to Petyr while they were unwed and in Catelyn’s case betrothed to someone else.  On one hand, Sansa is pretty disbelieving about Petyr’s claims regarding Catelyn. If she wasn’t, then she wouldn’t feel the need to question him about him loving Lysa.  Furthermore, her thinking it “made no matter now” is twofold. One, she can’t really call LF a liar because she knows its not safe to alienate him (yet). Two, it can also show that Sansa doesn’t think it a huge concern that her mother was with someone else before her marriage – something that again that would be seen as a big deal to other people.

With Lysa, the things said by her that still “troubled” Sansa greatly has everything to do with the letter, murder, plotting, Lysa lying to Sansa’s parents. The forced abortion.  Nothing to do with her sleeping with Petyr. (Although I do want to point out that what actually happened with Petyr was that he was raped by Lysa, however Sansa is only hearing Lysa’s version which paints a much different picture)

It’s interesting to me that there appears to be a lack of judgement from Sansa in these scenarios. I’m definitely not saying this makes her a feminist or she would never have such thoughts but it’s notable for a character that was sheltered as Sansa and was raised following a religion that doesn’t always have the most enlightened takes that she doesn’t have such negative thoughts about women in such a way

[bangtanplus1]

Ships in Bts

Jin and Luna

Jina

Jina is the most popular ship in bts! It started getting big ever since they began “flirting” in Army’s eyes. This flirting consists of their loving looks for each other, winking, cuddling and teasing. Though the moment it hit big was when she was asked by an Army if she had a crush on any of the members and she answered with a nod. She hid her mouth and then proceeded to mouth Jins name to Army.

As the oldest Jin feels protective of the whole group but especially Luna. She is the second youngest and the only girl which just gives him more reason to keep a close eye on her. He always makes sure she is close so she doesn’t get lost. For her he is the best at calming her down so she goes to him a lot, sometimes all she needs is to lay down with her head on his wide shoulders.

Yoongi and Luna

Yoona

Yoongi and Luna’s personalities are quite similar, both are introverted, calm, hardworking, and down to earth. The two get along very well but aren’t ever over the top in the way the act except when necessary. Most people thought they were very distant at first but the are actually very close, they just have a different friendship then everyone else has. Luna has a lot of respect for him especially when it comes to his music producing. She aspires to be like him in that regard. She also goes to him when she is struggling in her writing.

The ship is one of the less popular ships, but still gets a lot of attention when a new moment of the two is seen. Wether it is hand holding at the airport or them being paired for Run, these moments are cherished because they are hard to come by compared to other ships.

Hoseok and Luna

J-Huna

This ship is one of the less popular ships but everyone loves the two together. When they first met, she was only 15 and she was incredibly shy and would only talk when talked to. Over time she began opening up to him slowly. The grew closer over their passion for dancing, he practically became her mentor. They spent most of their spare time practicing and street dancing together. In dance she always looks for his approval and won’t rest until she gets it.

Their moments are almost as hard to come by as Yoona’s as they almost never get paired up for anything. But they few times they have, they are laughing nearly the whole time. And both of them have loud laugh, Luna’s being on the special side.

Namjoon and Luna

RuMa

This ship is a slow coming ship that has been growing as they age. The two were the first members of BigHit back in 2011, so they share a special bond. He is the older brother she wished she had as a kid! Back then he would do everything for her if she asked, often times this ended up with him helping her with her homework. He would stay up into the wee hours of the morning to make sure she finished and got to sleep. Some nights he would even end up doing it for her when she hit her wall. She has a lot of respect for him and will do anything he asks of her without a second thought. With him being the tallest and her the shortest in pictures he is often pulling her infront of him and putting his head on hers while giving her a hug.

Jimin and Luna

Lumin

This is the third most popular ship, especially for the famous trope of best friends to lovers. It took them a while to become best friends, or friends in general, but once they did they became inseparable! Her shy personality could easily be wiped away by his outgoing and flirty one. The are always seen touching each other in some way, it is some kind of comfort for each of them to be near each other. During interviews were they sit beside each other they are guaranteed to be doing on of the following: holding hands, hand on the thigh or knee, arm around the shoulder or even just their legs touching at the knee or thigh. They also commonly travel, cuddle, have deep talks, or gossiping together.

Taehyung and Luna

Taena

Taehyung is practically Luna’s baby! She loves brushing her fingers through his hair, Tae loves it too, especially when he gets to put his head on her lap as she does it. He returns the hair brushing often, he loves running his fingers through and then twirling the hair. He also taught himself to braid her hair in many different styles. Taehyung and Luna have been spotted shopping together many times since he is trying to get her to dress in her style instead of stealing the boys clothes and calling it a day. This is proving to be difficult because their styles are very opposite and the only thing the agree on is oversized is the way to go. Taena isn’t as close as everyone thinks they are, they have had many fights over the years but still love each other. They aren’t as close as they are to other members. The ship is still very popular even with that fact, the ship is right in the middle in popularity.

Jungkook and Luna

Lungkook

The two are little goofballs together all the time. On camera you can see how the two gravitate to each other, often times they stand beside each other because they feel better together. The two are very close, they were friends very quick despite their introverted personalities (though the first couple weeks they couldn’t look at each other without blushing or getting very shy). They went to school together and would try their best to stay together and hang out at lunch.

This ship takes a podium spot, in number two in popularity. They are often teamed up together since they are the maknaes of the group, so they have many moments together. To him she is like a big sister who is always there for him and he trusts her with his life. To her he is a baby brother who is more like her twin, she would do anything for him. As seen when he calls her name and she stops whatever she is doing and turns her full attention to him.

[melrosing]

Unpopular opinion: Jaime is allowed to dump people for cheating on him especially if he gave up his birthright for them, and literally nobody is saying that it makes him a hero lmao. Expecting Jaime to have knowledge about how Cersei only did it because she thinks it's her weapon is big dumb since she literally said "He's lied to you and so have I." If Jaime is wrong for not communicating with her, so is Cersei. Catelyn is allowed to feel betrayed over Ned's "infidelity" so Jaime is no different.

hmm some thoughts under the cut cos obviously lots of Stuff here

I do think the whole Lann Twins and the Cheating thing gets oversimplified both sides in fandom, and a lot of the discourse around it teeters into something that either excuses Cersei or excuses the things she's been through. like she isn’t just an unfaithful lover, she’s a woman with a hugely fraught relationship with her body and with sex and this is what has led to the ‘cheating’ Jaime hears about. obviously it's so much more than I could really summarise here but clearly what Jaime has in his head does not align with Cersei's actual experience of those infidelities.

I mean, I don’t think she cares to be faithful to Jaime - we can see she’s attracted to other men (Rhaegar Targaryen, Aurane Waters) and would apparently be perfectly happy if she were to have them. so no, she’s not a faithful lover and doesn’t care about his feelings on that, except insofar as she knows it would break the illusion and so doesn't tell him.

but the instances where she’s actually slept with other people (the Kettleblacks, Lancel, Taena) are so much more complicated than just infidelity, and are generally either Cersei being re-traumatised or Cersei traumatising others. sometimes both. so whilst Jaime doesn't know any of that, it doesn’t sit comfortably with me to just be like ‘well, she cheated :/‘ like… it just feels inappropriate as it's quite a different story Cersei's side

but then I see the argument that ‘oh, Jaime just broke up with her cos she was unfaithful and not because the relationship is toxic and Cersei is bad!’ which is also like… no? or at least it's really not as simple as that.

the second he gets back to KL in ASOS he’s properly clocking how unbalanced their relationship has always been. he starts rejecting her advances shortly afterwards, then he finds out about the cheating, doesn’t wholly believe it and rejects her further advances regardless, puts more and more distance between them as her viciousness increases… then finally believes what Tyrion told him when Lancel confirms it, and descends into some very ugly thoughts on the whole relationship.

but like, it’s not just about infidelity, is it. it’s that Cersei, when they were fifteen years old, demanded that he sign his entire life over to her - his right to marry, his inheritance, any family he might’ve one day had, his freedom, basically everything, because they were ~the same person~ and there could be no-one else. Cersei used this rhetoric to coax him into this frankly awful decision, knowing even then that she herself wasn’t emotionally committed to Jaime, or this rhetoric, in the way she was asking of him.

so he does sign his life over to her, and spends the rest of his teenage years basically imprisoned with fuckin Aerys Targaryen as a result. has only thoughts of Cersei to keep him from just giving in to his trauma. shanks Aerys and loses his rep. then spends the rest of his adult life clinging to Cersei and the illusion of their love because lbr, what else has he got at this point, he signed the rest away for exactly that. he’s now a very miserable guy and she’s the best thing in his life, this beautiful relationship she tells him they have is all that’s keeping him going. he’s done things, and turned a blind eye to others, because if he can’t believe in this relationship he doesn’t believe in anything anymore.

and then oops, it’s all a lie. Cersei was knowingly manipulating him at the start, she has been ever since, and he signed away everything for someone who gave him only falsehoods in return. his kids don’t know he’s their father. he has no future outside of the KG. this profound and otherwordly love he’s based his life on was literally all a manipulation tactic to keep him loyal and obedient.

so the cheating (as he understands it) is not just cheating - the cheating confirms everything else: that Cersei lies, that she doesn’t truly love him, that it was all essentially for nothing, and all he’s left with in the aftermath are fragments of the life he wanted for himself. it’s perfectly reasonable grounds for a complete breakdown.

so yeah, Jaime is mad! this is indeed where they break up lol! it doesn’t justify every thought that crosses his mind on the matter, and certainly doesn’t erase what these infidelities of Cersei’s really looked like, but there's certainly more to it than 'Cersei cheated and Jaime didn't like that'

[fedonciadale]

I read that post about male gaze in writing women and characters and think about grrm. I think there is call-out about how he hypersexualise his female characters. Like unnecessary need to remind about Dany and Sansa bodies, sexual violence against women, body shaming cersei at walk of shame, bran describing about Osha body, hypersexualisation of dorne. What do you think about it?

Hi there!

I actually think it is more complicated than just the 'male gaze'. I've read people argue that GRRM writes gross sex scenes and that this is just the 'old white man' but I beg to differ. This is only about the books though because we don't need to argue about the show - which is 100% male gaze.

The sex in ASOIAF is complicated and when GRRM gives the couples a closer look during sex it is mostly done for exploring the characters. It is not 'sex for porn reasons' it's 'sex for plot reasons'. I try to give some examples. Theon and the captain's daughter : this is about Theon's selfishness and his inability to look beyond his own needs. It's no wonder this scene is a blow job. Cersei and Jaime's sex is toxic : I mean they have sex next to the body of their dead child risking discovery! It's also the last time they have sex: death hangs over their relationship, it's not fruitful despite the children. Tyrion's sex scenes show how much he sees women as a reward how he objectives them and it fits well into his whore or saint attitude towards women. Cersei with Taena shows how deeply the internalised misogyny of Cersei runs. Dany's sex is very complicated. I think it shows that she has no clear idea about consent, not even her own. In her sex scenes it's also about who has power over whom. Jon regains some of his agency in the sex scenes with Ygritte in the cave. He learns about giving pleasure orally and that helps him to cope with his bad conscience for breaking his vows. Because this is the moment the breaking of his vows gets differentiated from his own lust - which is such a matter of shame for him because he was coerced.

It's a bit different with the rare cases of consensual and loving sex. We only see Ned and Cat after the act and we see them from Cat's POV who is quite satisfied, thank you very much (aching loins, they've done this a thousand times etc.) and Sam and Gilly and the infamous 'fat, pink mast' - which shows Sam insecuritues with his body. But GRRM tends zo leave the happy couples alone so to say.

So, the sex is in there for a reason and it mostly is not 'the male gaze' or so it seems to me. It's plot and character driven.

That does not mean that the male gaze is non existent! It is but it stands alongside some very well written and different female characters whose suffering in patriarchy is depicted and taken seriously. We should not forget that GRRM has a mother of about 35 something as a POV and it's a very well written POV. That the dudebro fandom doesn't value Cat is not GRRM'S fault. He still misses some things and I seriously question GRRM'S ability to write female friendship or even mention it, but I think that his women are more than just objects of the male gaze.

I can give three examples where I think the male gaze is a problem : Cersei's walk of shame : this is also plot driven and it is about Cersei being forced to realise that 'sleep with them to make them do the things you want' is not going to work when she grows old. It's written from her POV after all and shows her internalized misogyny. But did it have to be this? I actually think that GRRM 's desire to punish Cersei came into this.

Another problem is Sansa. I mean she really only meets gross groping men who lust after her. There is a plot reason for that. She can't feel safe anywhere but in Winterfell and she can't feel safe with any man that is not Jon. And her value as the key to the North and the importance of her claim is something that drives the plot and this lust for her claim is also described via sexual interest. Still, I hate it. And I definitely think GRRM could have toned that down.

My third example would be Dorne. I think GRRM certainly could have avoided the trope 'Latin lover' for Dorne. I like Arianne quite a lot but I think the Dornish women are too hot headed, too libertin. It's just too much. It plays into some borderline racist tropes about Latinas - and it certainly didn't help that half of the fandom runs with it.

So, my interpretation is that it is very often not the male gaze but actually plot development and character description. I think GRRM even tries to leave the male gaze (or he would not have written Catelyn), but he does not always succeed. And there are certainly instances of male gaze that are not due to plot or character description. They crept in and I think it's hard for a male weiter to leave that behind. The male gaze is the default and even women writers slip into it by accident once in a while.

Thanks for the ask!

[aboveallarescuer]

I know you've gotten anons about the YMBQ prophecy recently but I was wondering in what context could it be obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ if Cersei is most likely to die or leave KL once Aegon arrives and not Daenerys. Even if Daenerys takes KL later on wouldn't he technically be the one to take all she holds dear (her power as regent)?

First of all, Anon, I think it’s interesting that you say that Young Griff (rather than Arianne) would take all that Cersei holds dear in this hypothetical scenario (that most people assume will come to pass). asoiaf tumblr fandom loved (loves?) to take for granted that Arianne would be YMBQ (after all, it was/is taken for granted that she would marry Young Griff and become his queen consort) years ago. At the same time, though, I’m not sure if you’re implying that Young Griff might actually be the one to fulfill the YMB(Q) prophecy in this ask. I actually saw this theory before. So I’m going to make counterarguments to this theory first and then address your question about how and when Dany might be revealed as the YMBQ (and if that’s what you were specifically looking for, just skip to the end, though you might be disappointed by the fact that I'm not really providing definitive answers because I have a lot of doubts myself).

In a way, it makes more sense for Young Griff to fulfill the prophecy rather than Arianne. Let’s remember what Cersei wants the most, which is shown in the beginning of her very first chapter:

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all. (AFFC Cersei I)

Unfortunately for Cersei, she can’t ever actually sit the Iron Throne, which is pointed out several times:

Cersei shifted in her seat as he went on, wondering how long she must endure his hectoring. Behind her loomed the Iron Throne, its barbs and blades throwing twisted shadows across the floor. Only the king or his Hand could sit upon the throne itself. Cersei sat by its foot, in a seat of gilded wood piled with crimson cushions. (AFFC Cersei V)

~

Seated on her gold-and-crimson high seat beneath the Iron Throne, Cersei could feel a growing tightness in her neck. (AFFC Cersei VII)

~

Cersei sat beneath the Iron Throne, clad in green silk and golden lace. (AFFC Cersei X)

As the first quote states, only the king or the Hand can sit the Iron Throne, which is what Cersei wants the most, since, to her, it symbolizes almost unlimited power ("high above them all"). Indeed, I would argue that what Cersei holds dear is the chance to reign supreme (“The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. [...] If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.”), not “her power as regent” (as you put it), which is limited by nature. After all, the king’s wife and mother can’t sit the Iron Throne. This means three things to me:

Queen consorts like Margaery or Arianne (if she actually marries Young Griff, which is far from certain) can’t take all that Cersei holds dear.

Queens claiming power in their own right but who have no claim to the Iron Throne are excluded too. In other words, Asha or QitN!Sansa (another fan theory that’s far from certain and that’s accepted as future canon) can’t take all that Cersei holds dear.

Only a she-king (that is, a queen regnant) with a claim to the Iron Throne can take all that Cersei holds dear - that’s Dany.

But then, we have Young Griff. He is a king with a claim to the Iron Throne, so he could, in theory, take what Cersei holds dear and fulfill the prophecy. However, I find that very unlikely for a number of reasons:

GRRM doesn’t highlight men’s physical appearances or objectify them in the same way that he does with women, as a lot of people have already criticized him for. He makes a point of mentioning women’s accomplishments along with overpraise for their physical appearances (though one might be generous and chalk that up to social commentary about how their society objectifies women instead of giving them their due praise for what they do). He encourages his fans to speculate about who is the YMB(Q) and pit his female characters against each other based on their physical appearances (e.g., people have criticized how Sansa stans often mention the number of times the word “beautiful” appears in Sansa’s chapters to back up their belief that she’s the YMB(Q), but the way GRRM himself wrote the prophecy lends itself to this sort of analysis) because he uses certain tropes uncritically. He portrays fat women negatively in comparison to thin women (see: Cersei (who’s said to be gaining weight throughout AFFC as she becomes more unstable) vs Dany, Lysa vs Cat, Barba Bracken vs Melissa Blackwood, arguably Rhaenyra vs Alicent). He takes an almost voyeuristic pleasure in describing women’s bodies and women having sex with women (see how Dany and Irri’s or Cersei and Taena’s sexual encounters don’t give any depth to Dany’s, Irri’s and Taena’s characters and, as far as I can tell, are mostly written to fetishize them). Consider, for instance, how 13- to 16-year-old Dany is the most sexualized character of the book series, while I’m not even sure if her male counterpart Jon is supposed to be considered attractive or not (on the one hand, he’s attracted women like Ygritte and Val; on the other hand, he’s meant to look a lot like Ned, who’s regarded as plain in appearance, especially in comparison to the hot-blooded Brandon). All of this is to say that I doubt that a man will fulfill a prophecy that remarks upon the person’s physical appearance (“younger and more beautiful”). Considering GRRM’s writing problems, a woman is much more likely to do so.

Young Griff is supposed to represent a lesser version of Dany (note that I’m talking about Young Griff as a fictional character, not as a person). After all, unlike Dany, Young Griff didn’t get to have lived experience of poverty, he didn’t get to have his skills tested, he didn’t get to apply the lessons he learned along the way, he didn’t get to take action and make mistakes and gain valuable experience and wisdom, he didn’t get to choose to stay in Slaver’s Bay solely to help marginalized people who aren’t connected to him by neither blood nor lands (which would emphasize how he doesn’t view his birthright merely as something owed to him, but rather as a means to “protect the ones who can’t protect themselves”). He could have had this sort of character development if GRRM wanted him to, but he has a different role in the narrative: he’s a tertiary character who we’re not meant to know all that much as a person or about how he would fare as king because he serves as a foil to Dany. With all of that in mind, what would be the point of having this minor character, who was introduced in the fifth book of a seven-book series, fulfill this prophecy rather than the one protagonist who the author said was deliberately written as Cersei’s foil multiple times (more on that below)?

Which brings me to a point that @rainhadaenerys made in our upcoming Dany/Cersei meta... Cersei views women with contempt because she thinks that they can only attain political influence with “tears” and with what’s “between [their] legs” (as she tells Sansa). This informs why, for example, she projects the unfounded idea that a widow must have lovers on Margaery or why she herself uses money and sex to keep her men loyal (which ultimately backfires on her). Unfortunately, it’s true that “[Cersei’s] strength relies on her beauty, birth and riches”. Because of her internalized misogyny, Cersei can’t conceive of a woman who might rise to power primarily because of her intelligence and shrewdness… Except that there is a woman who successfully conquered three cities and ruled the third and freed thousands of slaves relying primarily on her actual wit, political savviness and leadership skills rather than on sex, birthright or money… Dany. Dany is the competent, selfless ruler who could overcome many of the patriarchal limitations that Cersei couldn’t (hence why Cersei is a tragic figure). If Young Griff were to be the YMB(Q), he would simply be one of the many men (along with Robert, her brother, her father and the other Hands) who Cersei thinks wronged her and prevented her from staying in power. If Daenerys were to be the YMBQ, she would challenge Cersei’s toxic beliefs about women, which prevented Cersei from even imagining that a she-king might be the one foreshadowed to defeat her or that a woman (that isn’t her, of course) could actually be able to earn her accomplishments (just like she can’t imagine that Jaime might actually betray and kill her). Now, someone might argue that GRRM is not “woke” enough to do this, but I would disagree in this particular case. There are valid critiques to be made about how he wrote his female characters (I’ve made some points myself on the first item), but it’s still true that Dany’s character arc was written with awareness of how her gender affects her experiences. If that hadn’t been the case, AGOT wouldn’t have initially set up several men (Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo) to be claimant to the Iron Throne/SWMTW/the protagonist only to reveal that these roles are actually meant to be fulfilled by Dany, a woman. If that hadn’t been the case, he wouldn’t have had Maester Aemon acknowledge that “no one had ever looked for a girl” when they pondered on who might be AA/PTWP. So I don’t put it past GRRM to make Dany the YMBQ as a way of challenging Cersei’s entire worldview.

Indeed, I actually think that’s likely to be what he’ll write. GRRM has stated multiple times that Dany and Cersei are meant to be compared and contrasted because they were consciously written by him (specially in AFFC/ADWD) as narrative foils:

George regrets that Cersei and Dany will not be contrasted directly. (x)

~

His biggest lament in splitting A Feast for Crows from A Dance with Dragons is the parallels he was drawing between Circe and Daenerys. (x)

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Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world. (x)

~

While discussing how he writes his female characters, he also mentioned that splitting the books as he did this time meant we didn't get the parallel between how Danaerys and Cersei both approach the task of leadership, which is a bit of a shame. (x)

~

And that one of the things he regrets losing from the POV split is that he was doing point and counterpoint with the Dany and Cersei scenes--showing how each was ruling in their turn. (x)

I think Young Griff as the YMB(Q) is very, very unlikely. If it’s not Dany, then I think Brienne (who at least is a viewpoint character that we know intimately) as the YMBQ (though I doubt it because she can only take Jaime away from Cersei and, as we saw in AFFC, Cersei was willing to separate herself from Jaime once she realized that he would question and disagree with her decisions and, in her mind, threaten her influence and power, i.e., what she wants the most) or even Cersei herself (the basis of this theory is that a younger Cersei caused her own downfall by making the choices she made. It’s not impossible considering that Cersei’s unreliable viewpoint prevents her from ever taking responsibility for her actions. Still, I think it’s unlikely because she’s been positioned as a passive participant in these prophecies - someone/some people kills her children, some person takes away everything she holds dear, some person murders her. Just like there’s a valonqar to kill Cersei, I think there’ll be a YMBQ to defeat her) are more plausible candidates. However, as I said in previous answers, Dany and Cersei have lots of clearly intended parallels and anti parallels (hence why GRRM mentioned them at least five times publicly) that people don’t often appreciate (but that I don’t want to mention here because I’m saving them for edits and that long meta). I find it hard to believe that GRRM would lay all this groundwork to contrast these two queens only to reveal that a minor character is the actual YMB(Q).

Now, the question about “in what context could it be obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ” is difficult because, IMO, I don’t feel like there’s enough information to give you a reliable answer. First, let’s recap the most common theories, which, while I don’t think should be accepted as canon just yet, are popular for logical reasons. Here’s what GRRM said about the future events in the initial outline and interviews:

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons. (x)

~

GRRM: Yes, three more volumes remain. The series could almost be considered as two linked trilogies, although I tend to think of it more as one long story. The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates. After that comes The Winds of Winter. I have been calling the final volume A Time For Wolves, but I am not happy with that title and will probably change it if I can come up with one that I like better. (x)

~

He said that in his original plan (when he wanted to write a trilogy) the Red Wedding would take place in book one, and Dany’s landing in Westeros in book two. Now he says that Dany’s arrival in Westeros will take place in book 5, A Dance with Dragons. (x)

~

From there he started to plan a trilogy, since there were 3 main conflicts (Starks/Lannisters; Dany; and the Others) it felt it would neatly fit into a trilogy (ah!), but like Tolkien said, the tale grew in the telling. (x)

~

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.” (x)

GRRM’s words seem to indicate that Dany will go to Dragonstone ("they're both coming home") and then King’s Landing in her campaign to take back the Seven Kingdoms before she goes to the Wall to fight against the Others.

And it is quite possible that she will clash with Young Griff. For one:

Hi, short question. Will we find out more about the Dance of the Dragons in future books?

The first dance or the second?

The second will be the subject of a book. The first will be mentioned from time to time, I'm sure. (x)

For two:

"It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."

"I'm not. They're coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." (TWOW Arianne I)

For three:

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies … (ACOK Daenerys IV)

Now, here are my observations/questions/doubts:

The “cloth dragon” receiving a round of cheers from the crowd seems to indicate that a) Tommen will indeed fall from power when Young Griff (who’s already in Westeros almost ready to attack) invades King’s Landing and that b) Young Griff will inspire love from the population.

The more obvious possibility is that the second dance of dragons refers to a Dany versus Young Griff confrontation, especially since she’s prophesied to slay the lie that he represents (that he’s not Rhaegar Targaryen's son, but actually Illyrio’s son and a Blackfyre). However, since Victarion is currently in Meereen with a dragonbinder, it’s very likely that Dany will lose control of one of her dragons to a Greyjoy (either Victarion or Euron Greyjoy himself) and then will arrive in Westeros with only two of her three dragons. Or maybe Euron will use one of the dragons to attack Young Griff and that will be the second dance (though I find that unlikely since, again, Dany is prophesied to slay Young Griff’s lie). Or the second dance could actually refer to Dany versus Euron.

There are alternative speculations to consider. Right now, the consensus in the Dany fandom seems to be that there’s already too much in Dany’s plate for her (uniting all the khalasars and being hailed as the SWMTW; going back to Meereen; meeting Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro and other characters; maybe going to Yunkai; going to Volantis; etc) to go to King’s Landing, which led to people assuming that only Cersei and JonCon will be involved in the city’s burning. It’s even theorized that Dany might actually skip King’s Landing and go to the Wall instead. These theories make a lot of sense and aren’t implausible, but it’s hard to reconcile them with GRRM’s initial intention with Dany (though it’s also been argued that he may have given part of her initial role to Young Griff). Additionally, I don’t think timeline issues are necessarily a guarantee of what GRRM will do with Dany. He made Tyrion travel much faster than reasonable back in AGOT to have him meet Catelyn in the inn at the crossroads and to be taken captive by her. So I wouldn't put it past GRRM to do something similar with Dany by having her arrive earlier in King’s Landing than she reasonably would just because he wants it to happen. And, as much as I don’t want it to happen and even though I criticized the theory before, I don’t think it’s impossible (though it’s not guaranteed either) for Dany to be accidentally involved in the burning of King’s Landing (though there is a recent counter-theory to that as well).

Re: Cersei, a lot of people tend to assume that she’s going to die when Young Griff takes King’s Landing, but I am not really sure. I do think that her parallels with Aerys II will pay off and reflect her ending. But that doesn’t prevent Cersei from surviving Young Griff’s invasion and meeting Dany later. Cersei could escape to Casterly Rock and they could meet there. Or Cersei could later attempt to retake the capital again in another impractical plan of hers, which then leads to King’s Landing burning. I don’t know.

Does Dany have to meet everyone to fulfill these prophecies? I’m not sure. Does Dany necessarily need to meet Young Griff and Stannis to slay their lies? Does she necessarily need to meet Cersei so that the readership finds out that she’s the YMBQ? Will there even be an actual moment that makes it “obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ”? I don’t know, Anon. It may end up being up for people’s interpretation. Dany might end up burning the Iron Throne, if the theory about her accidentally burning King’s Landing actually happens. Dany might willingly melt the Iron Throne and install a new form of government that gives the smallfolk more political influence. Both of these possibilities could symbolize the end of Cersei’s desire for absolute power, even if Cersei and Dany don’t actually meet. I’m not even sure that there will be a moment that outright reveals that Dany is AA/PTWP/SWMTW (even though, IMO, the foreshadowing is way too overwhelming for it not to be her).

Speculating about Dany being the YMBQ is fun for me because it requires delving into her characterization, her parallels with Cersei and canon material in general. On the other hand, speculating about how this would actually happen is, IMO, less interesting (though I still enjoy reading what other people have to say) because it’s hard to accurately predict future plot points with the current information that we have (and I resent how fandom already accepts so many theories as unpublished canon). Dany has too many places to be and too many things to do and it’s not certain that she’ll be in King’s Landing when it burns (though I tend to think she will for the aforementioned reasons), the second dance of dragons can refer to different confrontations, it’s not certain that Dany needs to meet Cersei (or Young Griff or Stannis) to fulfill all these prophecies and it’s not certain that Dany is going to be explicitly revealed as the person who fulfills all these prophecies. We still have two books worth of plot development, so I really don’t think it’s possible to predict how the actual events will unfold. Sorry about not being able to give more definitive answers... I actually ended up making more questions. But that's kind of the point for now.

[miazeklos]

that line is great but honestly so is the entire Taena bit in that chapter and i'm kinda sad that it's always seen as the "ooooo she's turning into Robert" chapter because i don't think that's it at all!!! the whole point there is that she's trying to act like him and failing because she's not like him!!!

That's what I've been saying! Honestly, I know this is coming from a certified Cersei Apologist (TM) so it's probably not surprising at all, but this is the chapter that officially convinced me that, as I had thought, she's meant to be a better person than him lol.

This is probably mildly TMI, but at least from personal experience, when you've been mistreated in life, you often end up thinking about what you did to deserve it, whether they were the problem or you were, whether there was a point to it at all, things like that, and trying to figure it out is... a process. Obviously - and thankfully - I've never felt the urge to recreate the things done to me to someone else, but even the thought of being like that has brought the same realisations that Cersei comes to in the book.

Like, what she does perfectly replicates Robert's behaviour - she blames the wine for her behaviour, she tries to do what he does, and technically she's better at it, because unlike her, her partner is enjoying what is happening when she "claims her rights", but she's chasing a specific sensation:

“I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights.” “Do what you will.” (...) “Please,” the Myrish woman said, “go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I’m yours.” (...) But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her. For Taena, yes.

She then flips the script and compares Taena to Robert so that she's the aggressor in a different way:

For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a boar’s tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat.

But, alas:

It was still no good. It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.

At this point, she finally puts this ghost to rest because she realises that she's never going to feel what Robert felt when he abused her - because he didn't actually feel anything special. He was just a bad person and he didn't care who he was hurting, and sometimes that realisation hurts more because it means that everything you went through was even more pointless than it originally felt.

When she tried to take her hand away, Taena caught it and kissed her fingers. "Sweet queen, how shall I pleasure you?" She slid her hand down Cersei's side and touched her sex. "Tell me what you would have of me, my love." "Leave me." Cersei rolled away and pulled up the bedclothes to cover herself, shivering. Dawn was breaking. It would be morning soon, and all of this would be forgotten. It had never happened.

Arguably, Cersei's experience with Taena (or rather, vice versa) was better than her experience with Robert because at least someone enjoyed themselves, but 'it's still no good'. And the thing with Robert is that for him, those nights 'never happened' because he was ashamed of what he'd done. Cersei isn't ashamed; she's disappointed and disgusted and wants to forget the whole thing because, again, her hypothesis that she'd feel powerful if she acted like him was proven wrong and she just feels as lonely and isolated as before because there's only one person she really wants and this has given her nothing.

TL;DR: Anyone saying she's ~turning into Robert~ is not only annoying, but also wrong, and Cersei is a better person that he could ever be. In this essay... well. I already wrote the essay.

[agameoftragedy]

If you bounced into Cersei’s body just after the battle of the blackwater. What would you have done to secure power for yourself and children? Create a stable government (or how much you can) for Westeros, and not be forced away from Tywin? And how’d you get the Tyrell’s onside?

Misunderstood this at first as Cersei being dead, but you mean if I suddenly possessed Cersei after the BotB? Hmmm, thing is I still have a personality. And does the prophecy hold? I can understand her wanting to protect her kids from that, even if from a detached strategic level it might be better for her house if she remarried. I think it's still good to be at the heart of the action, so perhaps try to negotiate with Tywin (and an appropriate family) a marriage where your new husband would come to King's Landing so you aren't separated from your boys and the heart of the kingdoms (though I personally am not keen on having to have sex and pregnancy, so does that matter?). But anyway, then you have a potential new branch of allies for yourself and your side. Also, what do I know? Do I know about the plan to kill Joffrey, which Cersei didn't? And do I definitely want to stop it, Joffrey being who he is? Do I get maternal feelings for all the 'Baratheon' kids? And if I don't know, do I still believe the accusations against Tyrion, which doesn't help the supposed Martell alliance and gets Tywin killed? And might eventually aid Daenerys and/or 'Aegon' coming and tearing us down? Like, in that respect, I think we're doomed anway unless both Targ claimants die. Anyway, if you're thinking of Cersei's AFFC arc more specifically, one of the main things is to not do what Cersei does. You just have to hold firm against the Tyrells encroaching too much, you don't have to go to war with Margaery - Tommen living happily and healthily for a good few years at least is very much in their interests, as well as his regime being strong, you have mutual interests in that respect and trying to fight the Tyrells just undermines it all. Plus that means less issue in combating threats like Euron because you're not too busy trying to off Loras and whatever. Also, at an earlier point in time: do what you can to make Sansa as happy as possible under the circumstances. Assuming she's still married off to Tyrion, it's still hoped she'll get the North with a Lannister child, and that's (marginally) more likely if she's not miserable, terrified and despising everyone, keep her away from Joffrey, maybe only have her at court when it's like procedurally necessary that she be there. Oh, also, I can not get in bed (literally and figuratively) with Taena and the Kettleblacks, and actually listen to, think and plan for the local issues surrounding the Stokeworths and Bronn and also Rosby, all of which have/will probably come back to bite Cersei in the ass. And I don't have to get involved with Qyburn and his experiments either. There are so many ways to not do what Cersei does, and basically all of them are beneficial tbh.

[sayruq]

Cersei/Taena: Cersei rapes her and imagines her fingers to be claws when they've having sexual relations, Taena is going to betray her, Cersei is racist towards her. Where's the honesty in their relationship?

Jaime/Brienne: GRRM said their relationship is evolving, started of as enemies and then saved each other's lives and gave each other a purpose when they were at their lowest (Cat's death and the handchop), Jaime gave Brienne a priceless sword, jumped into a bearpit for her. They can't stand it when anyone else talks shit about each other, Brienne chopped off a guy's hand to avenge Jaime but you probably don't remember that since I doubt you've read her chapters. Keep talking about how much you love her though, while downplaying her most important relationship.

Brienne actually likes Jaime. Can't say the same for Taena/Cersei. It's funny you care so much of Jaime's thoughts instead of his actions while ignoring how Cersei/Taena is nasty in both actions and thoughts (and we don't even know what poor Taena's thoughts are.) Jaime's connection with his horses is more meaningful than that relationship. Heck, Jaime is a deadbeat dad but even he is nicer to Tommen than Cersei.

All I'm saying is Jaime has moments of genuine compassion towards people and makes their lives better. Cersei doesn't. Die mad about it. The closest thing you've got is her feeling bad for a millisecond about the women she gave to Qyburn damn give her the nobel peace prize! Cersei is a heartbreaking character but you are in love with your own version of her since you're bitter af that she killed her friend at a young age and you can't blame misogyny and abuse for every single bad thing she does. I feel bad for you guys actually. You obviously hate Book Cersei since she can't be the girlboss you want her to be. Show Cersei is inconsistent and her only redeeming trait is Lena Headey's cheekbones. So you have to make do with your own version of her and whine about everyone else not seeing it. And funny you call Sansa/Cersei honest when Cersei straight up lied to Sansa about how she loves her.

cersei/taena involves an actual attraction, an interesting woman of colour, the toxicity in the relationship is plain for everyone to see and no one actually pretends its more than it actually is. it involves cersei trying desperately to forge a new connection with another human and taena playing cersei on behalf of whoever is ordering her. cersei is genuinely interested in taena (unlike jaime who could only react a little when brienne stood naked in front of him 🤭) and when she began acting like robert, enacting the same violence on taena that he inflicted on cersei, there was a clarity there because cersei doesn't waste any time pretending to be a good person like jaime does. and in the end, cersei asked for taena to come back to the city- meanwhile jaime spent all of affc obsessing over cersei.

taena actually exists outside of cersei and the grand joke is that cersei doesn't see it. they also spend time together willingly- cersei because she wants a friend and taena because she's spying on cersei- and it's clear that an implosion is coming around the same time that cersei loses everything and taena will be very involved. not only that, cersei will face consequences for the way she treated taena. i know that but you people think that jaime will marry brienne and replace the children he had with cersei. the level of delusion you exhibit is something else.

jaime/brienne- jaime being a piece of shit to a teenager, calling her ugly in more than one way to her face and making fun of her beliefs as though he has any right to, tricking her into doing something that he promised catelyn. brienne's low standards due to the way she's been treated by men is not something you should brag about esp since the only reason jaime 'cares' about her is because he's projecting his issues on her and trying to live through brienne. what's the point of jaime jumping into the bear pit if chapters later, brienne is roaming through the most dangerous parts of westeros alone save for a 10 year old boy. she got attacked like multiple times leading to serious injuries as a direct result of this and it's his fault that lady stoneheart thinks brienne is a traitor. brienne suffered greatly because of jaime. he couldn't even spare a few men to accompany her, instead he puts in more effort to working to finish his father's genocide campaign in the riverlands.

cersei's honesty with sansa (lmao you actually think cersei and sansa's interactions ended in agot?)>>>>>>>>>>>> everything jaime has ever told brienne.

face it, every single interaction cersei has with other characters is far more complex and interesting than whatever it is that jaime does.

[ddagent]

JB + love letters

Thank you for the prompt, Anon! I hope you enjoy this take; it’s a riff on ‘To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before’. 

“Well, that was Cersei on the phone,” Jaime said, huffing as he took the seat opposite his dear brother. “She wants to postpone the wedding. She’s heading to Sunspear for a few days. She needs time to think.”

Across from him, Tyrion simply took a sip of his drink. “Really? How interesting?”

“‘How interesting’? That’s all you have to say?” Jaime clenched the arms of his chair in the hotel lounge, desperately wanting to spend an hour in front of a punching bag, or an afternoon with a sword. Just something to release the anger he felt. He settled for raising his voice. “How could you do this to me?”

This being sending Jaime’s old love letters to their recipients a week before his wedding. Growing up, he’d had trouble verbalising his feelings, so he’d taken to writing them down on paper. Tyrion must have found them while snooping for dirt for his best man speech, and posted them for some yet-to-be-determined reason. 

Five letters, five women. Five reasons he wasn’t getting married in three days.

The first had not raised any red flags: after all, it had been written to his step-sister and current fiancee, Cersei. She’d thought it somewhat saccharine, but the letter had quickly been forgotten in favour of wedding preparations. But then her childhood friend Melara had shown up at the hotel clutching a love letter from Jaime, and things had only gone from bad to worse. Catelyn Tully-Stark, who Jaime had spent many a summer with, had been far too polite on the phone as she explained she was now happily married with five children. Taena, who had worked at Lannister Holdings for a time, had arrived at his hotel room in a trenchcoat and not much else. 

That was when Cersei decided she needed time to think. And Jaime couldn’t blame her. He blamed Tyrion instead. 

“I know you and Cersei have never got along—”

“—understatement of the century, Brother,” Tyrion said; index finger tapping the glass. “You deserve better.”

“So, what, you sent out my old love letters to find me a better bride?” Jaime slumped in his chair. “I love her, Tyrion.”

“And does she love you? Truly?” He made to answer, but his brother cut him off. “Was Cersei upset because all your old flames were coming out of the woodwork so close to your wedding? Or was she upset because you have not been entirely devoted to her throughout your entire life? The first is understandable. The second is cause for concern.” Tyrion grinned around the rim of his drink. “And she didn’t even meet the worst one.”

“Brienne.”

“Jaime?”

His hands clenched around the arms of his chair as he heard a voice as familiar to him as his own. Jaime turned, and was greeted by the sight of Brienne Tarth – albeit nearly twenty years older than his recollections. Over the years, he’d thought he’d exaggerated her presence; the blue of her eyes. But he’d recalled her perfectly. Of course, there were a couple of lines, now; her hair was longer. But her gaze was still kind and her smile was still warm and in her grasp was his letter. 

Shooting Tyrion yet another death glare, Jaime rose from his seat and addressed his best friend. They hadn’t seen each other in years, but she had been his only one. “Brienne. It’s good to see you.”

“And you. I–um–I got your letter.” She handed the blue envelope to him; he’d been so proud of finding paper the colour of her eyes. “I opened it, but when you started talking about the tourney reenactment as if it was last week, I realised it was an old letter. I didn’t read any more. It felt too…personal.”

Jaime took the letter. “That’s good of you. You could have posted it back, you know. You didn’t have to travel all the way to Lannisport.” 

Brienne’s teeth toyed with her bottom lip. Jaime remembered classes and study sessions and time spent together where that sole action brought a flutter of butterflies to his stomach. It still did. “Well, I did, actually. I–Gods, I’m going to sound utterly ridiculous.” 

“You won’t.” 

“I wanted to thank you. You were the best part of university for me, and knowing that someone – least of all you – liked me that way is…it’s a good feeling.” She ran a hand through her hair; a familiar pink flush covering her cheeks. “Please, make fun of me for being so stupid.” 

Jaime shook his head. “I won’t.”

“For once,” she said, with a grin, and Jaime felt his stomach do somersaults. “It’s really good to see you, Jaime. I’m sorry we lost touch.”

“Me too.” 

For the three years of his undergraduate degree, and the year of his masters, Brienne Tarth had been the focal point of his whole world. First a rival, then a peer, then his dearest friend. He’d fallen in love with her somewhere in their second year, and he hadn’t stopped loving her after he’d returned home to Lannisport, and she to Tarth. But their lives had grown busy; communication had dwindled. A few years later, Cersei had returned from her internship at the Iron Bank, and he’d rekindled his first love. 

But now his greatest stood in front of him. “How long are you in town for?”

“A few days. I’d hoped–I mean–your office said you were here for a wedding.” Brienne fiddled with the strap of her bag. “but I had hoped we could catch up; grab a coffee. Obviously, you’ve got the wedding—”

“—wedding’s been postponed,” Jaime blurted. “Bride needs some time to think, and…the groom does, too. So, yes, let’s do coffee. Or dinner – we could do dinner!”

Brienne beamed. “Dinner sounds good. Let me give you my number, and we can sort out a time and place.” 

Jaime looked up at Brienne, watching a strand of hair fall across her forehead, as she typed her number into his phone. Once done, Brienne made her departure through the hotel lobby. Jaime then re-took his seat in front of Tyrion, who had refilled his drink during his re-connection with Brienne. His brother said nothing; simply sipped his drink.

Perhaps he wouldn’t kill Tyrion after all. At least, not until after dinner.