#she does have that thing with taena going on

[lemonhemlock]

Hiiii lemon 👋🏻

I was trying to make an oc for Cersei and Jamie and talked about it with a couple friends to bounce ideas with and they all had the same thing to say "you really think Cersei would love someone!? she literally killed Melara for daydreaming about Jamie..." And this kinda made me a bit...

Anywayyyyy personally I think yes Cersei can be delusional, heartless... But that's part of her charm !!! And really people would not be as harsh on her if she was a man.

Like imagine a boy killing his bestie over liking his sister/lover... People would call that a romantic gesture lol.

Which is why I'm here to ask what would you personally do if you were making Cersei/Jamie a female love interest.

Hi, anon! There's quite a lot to unpack in your message. Cersei and Jaime could have the potential to love other people. But certainly their insular upbringing and dysfunctional family made them overly reliant on each other to the point of co-dependency. So I think that if you want to create realistic OCs for them, you should give them traits that tend to their greatest needs or inadequacies.

For Cersei, it's perhaps more easily identifiable the kind of husband who could make her happy - it's basically who she imagines Rhaegar to be. A noble, handsome, gallant young man who would be devoted to her, treat her kindly and involve her in his daily political dealings. Both Cersei and Jaime struggle with gender roles. Cersei wants to be considered a leader and valued for something other than her reproductive abilities, she wants to be respected and not discarded the replaced the minute her body becomes "irrelevant". So power-sharing with a husband who values her personhood and intelligence would help to heal her accumulated trauma. What Cersei yearns for in a partner is not so different than what any woman would wish for herself.

With Jaime, it's more complicated, because you somehow how to prevent him from joining the Kingsguard. Because 1. he would not be able to have a functional relationship when his vows are in direct contradiction and 2. if Cersei is still Queen somehow in this AU, he'd only be miserably sniffing around her skirts, entangling himself in her business, getting inevitably jealous and miserable and keeping her from taking her marriage seriously. Other than that, Jaime has no true interest in politics and he bores easily, so an ideal wife for him would be one with good social and administrative skills, who could handle the tasks Jaime would consider tedious in his position as (eventual) ruler of Casterly Rock. He also has a quick with and is quite funny, so I think he couldn't be truly content if his wife didn't share those qualities. So, IDK, some combination between Sansa and Aunt Genna. :))

Ultimately, I think they could really only reach a true level of contentment if their spouses help them fulfill their societal roles. They're too entrenched in their identities as Lannisters to ever run off to the Free Cities and do whatever and too comfortable to renounce all privileges and live the lives of regular peasants or merchants. Feudalism offers few opportunities that provide safety and comfort; they can't exactly became finance bros or get a job at the business factory to support themselves or engage in some other bullshit activity that's little work and high reward, so staying in the socio-economic sphere of their rich family is their best bet.

Cersei has this fantasy of swords and mail, but she wouldn't have been happy as a knight, with the pushback that comes with true non-conformity. Equally, Jaimie already did what he wanted and eschewed his role as heir, but life as a perpetual knight doesn't seem to bring him satisfaction either. They're not revolutionaries out to dismantle the status-quo and campaign for change, but, in the absence of that, society is not going to just simply accommodate their idiosyncrasies just because it's them. And they don't really like it either when they find out the world doesn't bend around their wishes! (affectionate)

[daenystheedreamer]

omg the one ask about your modern au reminded me of your keeping up with the baratheons thing i loved it so much!!!! do you have any other ideas/hcs for it???

AHHH KUWTB i missed them... ok so i love the idea of like real housewives of king's landing existing and cersei being on a season of it and thats how she starts being famous for being famous yknow.

RHOKL cersei season: cersei, taena merryweather, tanda stokeworth, falyse stokeworth, lysa arryn, selyse florent, alerie tyrell. they're not KL technically but i would also add genna lannister, ellaria sand and sybell spicer.

i think this lineup would cause some astronomical levels of cunt and slay, but cersei is definitely the breakout star. marge and olenna show up as side characters. lysa exits the show dramatically. selyse falls for MLM scams and is forced to leave when she tries hawking them on facebook. the real actual cops get called when cersei and ellaria grab wine glasses and turn them into shanks and start trying to stab each other. there's soooo many cocaine and drunk driving arrests.

KUWTB is a RHOKL (jesus christ ive got asoiaf acronym brain) spinoff because cersei was so fucking insane and the ratings were so good everytime she like caused a physical fight. taena is the ONLY person from RHOKL that cersei doesnt have personal violent beef with (ellaria and cersei have restraining orders) and she shows up o KUWTB.

also i like the crack theory that taena's son is a robert bastard and i think it would be VERY funny for that scandal to play out.

myrcella likes RHOKL she thinks its funny and she liked wearing pretty dresses when she shows up on the show. joffrey fucking hates it so much he's like everyone at school thinks im GAY cos of this. tommen is just excited cos 'mummy's on tv!' robert does not give a fuck

also taena and cersei go on a season of westerosi celebrity big brother and have implied lesbian sex in an episode

[daenerysstormreborn]

@elegantwoes

@atopvisenyashill

Yes yes all of this!! Great tags!! Cersei sexually abused Taena but taking sexual advantage of women is not like a core theme in Cersei’s narrative. Cersei is a villain through and through but I think that her treatment of Taena isn’t treated quite the same as Tyrion’s treatment of women because of the motivation. Tyrion is spiteful and in the passage I put in this post, he specifically gets a sexual thrill out of terrorizing this woman. Abusing women and exploiting sex workers is recurrent behavior for him. Cersei gets no thrill from hurting Taena. Cersei is trying to understand why Robert hurt her. She’s trying in her own twisted way to see what thrill Robert got from exerting that power over her, and she doesn’t find it. THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE WHAT SHE DID. Don’t mistake me in this. That’s just why I think it’s treated differently. A single incident committed by a true villain vs a pattern of behavior by a more morally grey character. Cersei isn’t a misogynist. She wishes she was a man not because she hates women, but because she thinks she deserves the positions of power that are only afforded to men. She’s an evil, selfish woman who does horrible things to people, and some of them are women, but she isn’t motivated by misogyny.

The morality of the actions of grey characters is also just far more interesting to discuss than those of villains. We know Cersei is evil. There’s no debate to be had. She does not act in the interest of any other person except maybe her children, but even then, she struggles to differentiate what is in their best interest versus what’s in hers. It reminds me of a post I saw a long time ago complaining about how people are quick to point out the moral failings of Rhaegar during the rebellion instead of talking about Tywin and Gregor. But again, it’s just like… duh. Tywin and Gregor are on the list of the most evil characters who have committed the worst and most atrocities. Few characters look to Tywin as a hero and none of them look to Gregor as one. Whereas Rhaegar is complex. Many characters admire him and think of him as a hero. Even Ned doesn’t hate him. Of course more people are going to discuss his morality over Gregor’s. Gregor is a rapist and child murderer. Yep, he sure did that, he sure is evil. Discussion over. See? Not much to be said.

I think a lot of people also get a bit confused and think that liking one villain as a character but hating another means you believe the villain you hate is more evil. I hate characters who are violent misogynists, predators, and rapists because that sort of misogyny has touched my life personally. It’s a matter of personal experience and opinions, not moral condemnation. It’s pretty normal to have stronger negative feelings towards villains who call to mind the things that have hurt us personally. “I personally do not like this character because of their actions” =/= “I think this character is more evil than characters I do like and I’m judging you if you’re a fan.”

“You don’t like Tyrion because he’s a man you don’t like Tyrion because he’s ugly you don’t like Tyrion because he’s disabled wah” no actually I don’t like Tyrion because of his attitude towards women. I think he’s a product of his environment and I do feel sympathy for him. The way he’s been treated all his life is horrific and Tywin Lannister is a monster. Tyrion is intelligent and funny and a brilliant strategist, and his wisdom is very valuable. But his attitude toward women is unforgivable. I don’t like Tyrion because of shit like this:

The girl’s mouth tightened. She despises me, he realized, but no more than I despise myself. That he had fucked many a woman who loathed the very sight of him, Tyrion Lannister had no doubt, but the others had at least the grace to feign affection. A little honest loathing might be refreshing, like a tart wine after too much sweet.

“I believe I have changed my mind,” he told her. “Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I’ll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly.” He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. “Do you moan when you are being fucked?” he asked the bedwarmer.

“If it please m’lord.”

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

—Tyrion I, ADwD

He doesn’t give these women his empathy. He takes delight in making this woman feel fear. He takes delight in her hatred of him. It’s rapey. My ire in this way is not reserved for Tyrion, of course. I feel the same way about Theon and Victarion, although they’re not main characters like Tyrion, so I don’t feel as strongly about them. That said, he’s not even close to my least favorite major character. That honor is reserved for Littlefinger’s groomer ass

[sayruq]

it's funny how this fandom likes to dismiss cersei as just always being paranoid when in agot she tells jaime she worries robert will try to pass her over for a younger woman. She was right to be worried - the tyrells are in the background trying to get robert interested in margaery, robert doesn't love cersei let alone respect her and doesn't want to be married - you don't think if the opportunity didn't present itself he wouldn't try to discard cersei? OK

that's the thing about cersei- she's right about a lot of things

the tyrells

she tries to warn tyrion about varys because tyrion doesn't really consider that varys has his own agenda

why ned agreed to become robert's hand

tyrion as a threat to her

varys as a threat

the need for the crown to have its own fleet, etc.

she's wrong about a lot too but usually with good reason

stannis would obviously be a greater threat to her and tommen than some greyjoy king. euron is unknown in the mainlands to anyone who doesn't remember fighting him during the greyjoy rebellion and as long as he is distracting the tyrells, cersei wouldn't mind. in her mind, there are many threats towards her children and herself, she's going to prioritise keeping them safe over the realm

kevan lannister would remove her from king's landing and he doesn't know the prophecy and what cersei is trying to prevent, he doesn't understand the stakes like she does

men like aurane waters and orton merryweather don't have the backing to undermine cersei so putting them in the small council makes sense. at the end of the day, cersei has power than them- as queen regent, as lady of the rock and queen mother. she wouldn't have to bargain and threaten just to get anything done. she also wanted to make sure none of them were beholden to the tyrells or the other lannisters

with tommen's legitimacy being questioned, getting him crowned and getting rid of the sparrows in the streets (can't have another riot) is worth making a deal with high sparrow. i mean eventually the lannister army will return so the faith militant can't be that disruptive, can it? (see mace tyrell getting margaery back with just the presence of his army)

aurane waters kept reminding cersei of her days before she met robert. abuse victims romanticising the time before they met their abuser is pretty normal. cersei is typically wary of people but by the time she meeta aurane waters and taena merryweather, she's deeply lonely, frightened and in desperate need of useful allies. aurane presents himself as such- he has useful information, he is witty and charming, he doesn't disagree with her. i also think people have overexaggerate how much cersei likes him

"Your Grace is kind," said Waters with a smile. A wicked smile, the queen thought. Aurane did not resemble Prince Rhaegar as much as she had thought. He has the hair, but so do half the whores in Lys, if the tales are true. Rhaegar was a man. This is a sly boy, no more. Useful in his way, though.

his main role was to fill a seat in the small council, it's only after that did he start asking for a fleet. if cersei expected everything to fall apart like it did, she wouldn't have handed him the keys to the new ships that were built.

but the fandom would have you believe that cersei wakes up cross eyed, her mouth drooling as she struggles to read simple sentences.

[westerosoliviapope]

Confession: Nymeria Sand is my favorite character in the Scandal Westeros Universe.

She leapt off the page from the beginning, which is why she's the first member of the Sphinx Consultants team that you meet in "It's Handled." On the surface, she's a fast talking, designer-clad hot girl. But as I wrote more, she showed up as observant, wise, and a fierce protector of those she loves.

And when I finally told her love story with Jennelyn Fowler? She knocked me off my feet. I knew she wouldn't have a typical "happily ever after" (few characters in this universe do, it's not my thing), but I LOVED the friendship, affection, and attraction between her and Jenn.

It was never about control for her. Her pleasure came from being a safe space for her tightly-wound friend to let go. She's never felt that overwhelming instinct to protect or care for another sexual partner. "Only you...only ever you" she'd promised Jenn and she meant it. She'll stick to the freedom of taking discipline going forward. Much less work that way. 

Here are a few of my favorite #Scandal!Nymeria moments:

Recruiting Brienne to the Sphinx Consultants' Team:

“I enjoy foreplay as much as the next girl, Brienne, but I am not asking if you want the job because we both know you do. No matter what you say, you want more for yourself than busting your ass in the name of some Ken doll you diddle yourself to when you go home at night. So, Cinderella. You can keep scrubbing Renly’s floors hoping someone will make you the belle of the ball or you can let Fairy Godmother Sarella make you a warrior in a suit.” 

When Sarella Catches Nym, Obara, and Jon Watching Prince Viserys' Sex Tape:

Nym, who actually has a bag of microwave popcorn in her lap, turns her head sideways to follow the action as the Prince guides Taena into another position. “No wonder he is such a slut. Slinging a cock like that is a community service.”

Giving Sansa a Pep Talk After the Team Fixes Her Divorce from Joffrey:

"In the next few years, your therapists and people you love will treat you like a victim. They mean well, but do not let them. "You married a brute who did horrific shit that you did not deserve—that is a fact. But it does not have to define the rest of your life. Do not let anyone make you feel small. Joffrey was small. You? Are a She-Wolf.” 

Teasing the Wolf Out of Jon:

“I’m guessing you’re used to sliding your hands into some pink cotton blend travesty purchased at the mall while cuddling on the couch over pizza, beers, and a movie you’re pretending to watch, so I’ll warn you—before you get all worked up imagining you can handle me—that this...” she slowly runs a black stiletto nail up her thigh. “...isn’t that.”

Jon’s jaw clenches. It’s subtle, but she sees it. She’s hit a nerve. 

Good. 

Correcting Jon's Assumption About Where He Ranks for Her, All-Time

“Humph,” Nymeria pouts. “You are no fun.” 

Feeling nature call, Jon rises from his seat and winks. “Nym, we both know I’m the most fun you’ve ever had.” 

She squints. “That honor belongs to a pretty blonde in Skyreach but I will give you top five. Top two cock, for sure.” 

Welcoming Brienne Back to the Team:

The click of stilettos accompanied by Nym greeting her with “Well, if it isn’t G.I. Jonquil?" in her patented Dornish drawl makes Brienne smile. 

Her Role as the Big Sister:

When it comes to the general welfare of Oberyn’s older brood, four women from four mothers with distinct upbringings and issues to accompany them, Nymeria Sand is the keeper of the keys.

It’s her job to notice when Obara goes too many days without showering because occasionally, she has PTSD relapses from being waterboarded by a Qarthene drug lord.

To call Tyene and dish about their sexcapades to make sure she’s staying on the healthy side of her sadism fetish instead of taking out her rage and abandonment issues on her poor husband’s ass.

To note the dryness in Sarella’s normally flawless skin and the lines around her eyes as signs that she’s holding herself together with red wine, coffee, and 90 hour work weeks.

And if you think a former assassin and a Type A Domme are a lot to handle, try telling a know-it-all workaholic with a 154 IQ that she either needs to talk about her feelings or get a facial, get fucked into a coma, and get over it.

[fedonciadale]

I read that post about male gaze in writing women and characters and think about grrm. I think there is call-out about how he hypersexualise his female characters. Like unnecessary need to remind about Dany and Sansa bodies, sexual violence against women, body shaming cersei at walk of shame, bran describing about Osha body, hypersexualisation of dorne. What do you think about it?

Hi there!

I actually think it is more complicated than just the 'male gaze'. I've read people argue that GRRM writes gross sex scenes and that this is just the 'old white man' but I beg to differ. This is only about the books though because we don't need to argue about the show - which is 100% male gaze.

The sex in ASOIAF is complicated and when GRRM gives the couples a closer look during sex it is mostly done for exploring the characters. It is not 'sex for porn reasons' it's 'sex for plot reasons'. I try to give some examples. Theon and the captain's daughter : this is about Theon's selfishness and his inability to look beyond his own needs. It's no wonder this scene is a blow job. Cersei and Jaime's sex is toxic : I mean they have sex next to the body of their dead child risking discovery! It's also the last time they have sex: death hangs over their relationship, it's not fruitful despite the children. Tyrion's sex scenes show how much he sees women as a reward how he objectives them and it fits well into his whore or saint attitude towards women. Cersei with Taena shows how deeply the internalised misogyny of Cersei runs. Dany's sex is very complicated. I think it shows that she has no clear idea about consent, not even her own. In her sex scenes it's also about who has power over whom. Jon regains some of his agency in the sex scenes with Ygritte in the cave. He learns about giving pleasure orally and that helps him to cope with his bad conscience for breaking his vows. Because this is the moment the breaking of his vows gets differentiated from his own lust - which is such a matter of shame for him because he was coerced.

It's a bit different with the rare cases of consensual and loving sex. We only see Ned and Cat after the act and we see them from Cat's POV who is quite satisfied, thank you very much (aching loins, they've done this a thousand times etc.) and Sam and Gilly and the infamous 'fat, pink mast' - which shows Sam insecuritues with his body. But GRRM tends zo leave the happy couples alone so to say.

So, the sex is in there for a reason and it mostly is not 'the male gaze' or so it seems to me. It's plot and character driven.

That does not mean that the male gaze is non existent! It is but it stands alongside some very well written and different female characters whose suffering in patriarchy is depicted and taken seriously. We should not forget that GRRM has a mother of about 35 something as a POV and it's a very well written POV. That the dudebro fandom doesn't value Cat is not GRRM'S fault. He still misses some things and I seriously question GRRM'S ability to write female friendship or even mention it, but I think that his women are more than just objects of the male gaze.

I can give three examples where I think the male gaze is a problem : Cersei's walk of shame : this is also plot driven and it is about Cersei being forced to realise that 'sleep with them to make them do the things you want' is not going to work when she grows old. It's written from her POV after all and shows her internalized misogyny. But did it have to be this? I actually think that GRRM 's desire to punish Cersei came into this.

Another problem is Sansa. I mean she really only meets gross groping men who lust after her. There is a plot reason for that. She can't feel safe anywhere but in Winterfell and she can't feel safe with any man that is not Jon. And her value as the key to the North and the importance of her claim is something that drives the plot and this lust for her claim is also described via sexual interest. Still, I hate it. And I definitely think GRRM could have toned that down.

My third example would be Dorne. I think GRRM certainly could have avoided the trope 'Latin lover' for Dorne. I like Arianne quite a lot but I think the Dornish women are too hot headed, too libertin. It's just too much. It plays into some borderline racist tropes about Latinas - and it certainly didn't help that half of the fandom runs with it.

So, my interpretation is that it is very often not the male gaze but actually plot development and character description. I think GRRM even tries to leave the male gaze (or he would not have written Catelyn), but he does not always succeed. And there are certainly instances of male gaze that are not due to plot or character description. They crept in and I think it's hard for a male weiter to leave that behind. The male gaze is the default and even women writers slip into it by accident once in a while.

Thanks for the ask!

[aboveallarescuer]

I know you've gotten anons about the YMBQ prophecy recently but I was wondering in what context could it be obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ if Cersei is most likely to die or leave KL once Aegon arrives and not Daenerys. Even if Daenerys takes KL later on wouldn't he technically be the one to take all she holds dear (her power as regent)?

First of all, Anon, I think it’s interesting that you say that Young Griff (rather than Arianne) would take all that Cersei holds dear in this hypothetical scenario (that most people assume will come to pass). asoiaf tumblr fandom loved (loves?) to take for granted that Arianne would be YMBQ (after all, it was/is taken for granted that she would marry Young Griff and become his queen consort) years ago. At the same time, though, I’m not sure if you’re implying that Young Griff might actually be the one to fulfill the YMB(Q) prophecy in this ask. I actually saw this theory before. So I’m going to make counterarguments to this theory first and then address your question about how and when Dany might be revealed as the YMBQ (and if that’s what you were specifically looking for, just skip to the end, though you might be disappointed by the fact that I'm not really providing definitive answers because I have a lot of doubts myself).

In a way, it makes more sense for Young Griff to fulfill the prophecy rather than Arianne. Let’s remember what Cersei wants the most, which is shown in the beginning of her very first chapter:

She dreamt she sat the Iron Throne, high above them all. (AFFC Cersei I)

Unfortunately for Cersei, she can’t ever actually sit the Iron Throne, which is pointed out several times:

Cersei shifted in her seat as he went on, wondering how long she must endure his hectoring. Behind her loomed the Iron Throne, its barbs and blades throwing twisted shadows across the floor. Only the king or his Hand could sit upon the throne itself. Cersei sat by its foot, in a seat of gilded wood piled with crimson cushions. (AFFC Cersei V)

~

Seated on her gold-and-crimson high seat beneath the Iron Throne, Cersei could feel a growing tightness in her neck. (AFFC Cersei VII)

~

Cersei sat beneath the Iron Throne, clad in green silk and golden lace. (AFFC Cersei X)

As the first quote states, only the king or the Hand can sit the Iron Throne, which is what Cersei wants the most, since, to her, it symbolizes almost unlimited power ("high above them all"). Indeed, I would argue that what Cersei holds dear is the chance to reign supreme (“The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. [...] If Margaery Tyrell thinks to cheat me of my hour in the sun, she had bloody well think again.”), not “her power as regent” (as you put it), which is limited by nature. After all, the king’s wife and mother can’t sit the Iron Throne. This means three things to me:

Queen consorts like Margaery or Arianne (if she actually marries Young Griff, which is far from certain) can’t take all that Cersei holds dear.

Queens claiming power in their own right but who have no claim to the Iron Throne are excluded too. In other words, Asha or QitN!Sansa (another fan theory that’s far from certain and that’s accepted as future canon) can’t take all that Cersei holds dear.

Only a she-king (that is, a queen regnant) with a claim to the Iron Throne can take all that Cersei holds dear - that’s Dany.

But then, we have Young Griff. He is a king with a claim to the Iron Throne, so he could, in theory, take what Cersei holds dear and fulfill the prophecy. However, I find that very unlikely for a number of reasons:

GRRM doesn’t highlight men’s physical appearances or objectify them in the same way that he does with women, as a lot of people have already criticized him for. He makes a point of mentioning women’s accomplishments along with overpraise for their physical appearances (though one might be generous and chalk that up to social commentary about how their society objectifies women instead of giving them their due praise for what they do). He encourages his fans to speculate about who is the YMB(Q) and pit his female characters against each other based on their physical appearances (e.g., people have criticized how Sansa stans often mention the number of times the word “beautiful” appears in Sansa’s chapters to back up their belief that she’s the YMB(Q), but the way GRRM himself wrote the prophecy lends itself to this sort of analysis) because he uses certain tropes uncritically. He portrays fat women negatively in comparison to thin women (see: Cersei (who’s said to be gaining weight throughout AFFC as she becomes more unstable) vs Dany, Lysa vs Cat, Barba Bracken vs Melissa Blackwood, arguably Rhaenyra vs Alicent). He takes an almost voyeuristic pleasure in describing women’s bodies and women having sex with women (see how Dany and Irri’s or Cersei and Taena’s sexual encounters don’t give any depth to Dany’s, Irri’s and Taena’s characters and, as far as I can tell, are mostly written to fetishize them). Consider, for instance, how 13- to 16-year-old Dany is the most sexualized character of the book series, while I’m not even sure if her male counterpart Jon is supposed to be considered attractive or not (on the one hand, he’s attracted women like Ygritte and Val; on the other hand, he’s meant to look a lot like Ned, who’s regarded as plain in appearance, especially in comparison to the hot-blooded Brandon). All of this is to say that I doubt that a man will fulfill a prophecy that remarks upon the person’s physical appearance (“younger and more beautiful”). Considering GRRM’s writing problems, a woman is much more likely to do so.

Young Griff is supposed to represent a lesser version of Dany (note that I’m talking about Young Griff as a fictional character, not as a person). After all, unlike Dany, Young Griff didn’t get to have lived experience of poverty, he didn’t get to have his skills tested, he didn’t get to apply the lessons he learned along the way, he didn’t get to take action and make mistakes and gain valuable experience and wisdom, he didn’t get to choose to stay in Slaver’s Bay solely to help marginalized people who aren’t connected to him by neither blood nor lands (which would emphasize how he doesn’t view his birthright merely as something owed to him, but rather as a means to “protect the ones who can’t protect themselves”). He could have had this sort of character development if GRRM wanted him to, but he has a different role in the narrative: he’s a tertiary character who we’re not meant to know all that much as a person or about how he would fare as king because he serves as a foil to Dany. With all of that in mind, what would be the point of having this minor character, who was introduced in the fifth book of a seven-book series, fulfill this prophecy rather than the one protagonist who the author said was deliberately written as Cersei’s foil multiple times (more on that below)?

Which brings me to a point that @rainhadaenerys made in our upcoming Dany/Cersei meta... Cersei views women with contempt because she thinks that they can only attain political influence with “tears” and with what’s “between [their] legs” (as she tells Sansa). This informs why, for example, she projects the unfounded idea that a widow must have lovers on Margaery or why she herself uses money and sex to keep her men loyal (which ultimately backfires on her). Unfortunately, it’s true that “[Cersei’s] strength relies on her beauty, birth and riches”. Because of her internalized misogyny, Cersei can’t conceive of a woman who might rise to power primarily because of her intelligence and shrewdness… Except that there is a woman who successfully conquered three cities and ruled the third and freed thousands of slaves relying primarily on her actual wit, political savviness and leadership skills rather than on sex, birthright or money… Dany. Dany is the competent, selfless ruler who could overcome many of the patriarchal limitations that Cersei couldn’t (hence why Cersei is a tragic figure). If Young Griff were to be the YMB(Q), he would simply be one of the many men (along with Robert, her brother, her father and the other Hands) who Cersei thinks wronged her and prevented her from staying in power. If Daenerys were to be the YMBQ, she would challenge Cersei’s toxic beliefs about women, which prevented Cersei from even imagining that a she-king might be the one foreshadowed to defeat her or that a woman (that isn’t her, of course) could actually be able to earn her accomplishments (just like she can’t imagine that Jaime might actually betray and kill her). Now, someone might argue that GRRM is not “woke” enough to do this, but I would disagree in this particular case. There are valid critiques to be made about how he wrote his female characters (I’ve made some points myself on the first item), but it’s still true that Dany’s character arc was written with awareness of how her gender affects her experiences. If that hadn’t been the case, AGOT wouldn’t have initially set up several men (Viserys, Rhaego, Drogo) to be claimant to the Iron Throne/SWMTW/the protagonist only to reveal that these roles are actually meant to be fulfilled by Dany, a woman. If that hadn’t been the case, he wouldn’t have had Maester Aemon acknowledge that “no one had ever looked for a girl” when they pondered on who might be AA/PTWP. So I don’t put it past GRRM to make Dany the YMBQ as a way of challenging Cersei’s entire worldview.

Indeed, I actually think that’s likely to be what he’ll write. GRRM has stated multiple times that Dany and Cersei are meant to be compared and contrasted because they were consciously written by him (specially in AFFC/ADWD) as narrative foils:

George regrets that Cersei and Dany will not be contrasted directly. (x)

~

His biggest lament in splitting A Feast for Crows from A Dance with Dragons is the parallels he was drawing between Circe and Daenerys. (x)

~

Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world. (x)

~

While discussing how he writes his female characters, he also mentioned that splitting the books as he did this time meant we didn't get the parallel between how Danaerys and Cersei both approach the task of leadership, which is a bit of a shame. (x)

~

And that one of the things he regrets losing from the POV split is that he was doing point and counterpoint with the Dany and Cersei scenes--showing how each was ruling in their turn. (x)

I think Young Griff as the YMB(Q) is very, very unlikely. If it’s not Dany, then I think Brienne (who at least is a viewpoint character that we know intimately) as the YMBQ (though I doubt it because she can only take Jaime away from Cersei and, as we saw in AFFC, Cersei was willing to separate herself from Jaime once she realized that he would question and disagree with her decisions and, in her mind, threaten her influence and power, i.e., what she wants the most) or even Cersei herself (the basis of this theory is that a younger Cersei caused her own downfall by making the choices she made. It’s not impossible considering that Cersei’s unreliable viewpoint prevents her from ever taking responsibility for her actions. Still, I think it’s unlikely because she’s been positioned as a passive participant in these prophecies - someone/some people kills her children, some person takes away everything she holds dear, some person murders her. Just like there’s a valonqar to kill Cersei, I think there’ll be a YMBQ to defeat her) are more plausible candidates. However, as I said in previous answers, Dany and Cersei have lots of clearly intended parallels and anti parallels (hence why GRRM mentioned them at least five times publicly) that people don’t often appreciate (but that I don’t want to mention here because I’m saving them for edits and that long meta). I find it hard to believe that GRRM would lay all this groundwork to contrast these two queens only to reveal that a minor character is the actual YMB(Q).

Now, the question about “in what context could it be obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ” is difficult because, IMO, I don’t feel like there’s enough information to give you a reliable answer. First, let’s recap the most common theories, which, while I don’t think should be accepted as canon just yet, are popular for logical reasons. Here’s what GRRM said about the future events in the initial outline and interviews:

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarian hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons. (x)

~

GRRM: Yes, three more volumes remain. The series could almost be considered as two linked trilogies, although I tend to think of it more as one long story. The next book, A Dance With Dragons, will focus on the return of Daenerys Targaryen to Westeros, and the conflicts that creates. After that comes The Winds of Winter. I have been calling the final volume A Time For Wolves, but I am not happy with that title and will probably change it if I can come up with one that I like better. (x)

~

He said that in his original plan (when he wanted to write a trilogy) the Red Wedding would take place in book one, and Dany’s landing in Westeros in book two. Now he says that Dany’s arrival in Westeros will take place in book 5, A Dance with Dragons. (x)

~

From there he started to plan a trilogy, since there were 3 main conflicts (Starks/Lannisters; Dany; and the Others) it felt it would neatly fit into a trilogy (ah!), but like Tolkien said, the tale grew in the telling. (x)

~

“Well, Tyrion and Dany will intersect, in a way, but for much of the book they’re still apart,” he says. “They both have quite large roles to play here. Tyrion has decided that he actually would like to live, for one thing, which he wasn’t entirely sure of during the last book, and he’s now working toward that end—if he can survive the battle that’s breaking out all around him. And Dany has embraced her heritage as a Targaryen and embraced the Targaryen words. So they’re both coming home.” (x)

GRRM’s words seem to indicate that Dany will go to Dragonstone ("they're both coming home") and then King’s Landing in her campaign to take back the Seven Kingdoms before she goes to the Wall to fight against the Others.

And it is quite possible that she will clash with Young Griff. For one:

Hi, short question. Will we find out more about the Dance of the Dragons in future books?

The first dance or the second?

The second will be the subject of a book. The first will be mentioned from time to time, I'm sure. (x)

For two:

"It is dragons."

"Dragons?" said her mother. "Teora, don't be mad."

"I'm not. They're coming."

"How could you possibly know that?" her sister asked, with a note of scorn in her voice. "One of your little dreams?"

Teora gave a tiny nod, chin trembling. "They were dancing. In my dream. And everywhere the dragons danced the people died." (TWOW Arianne I)

For three:

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire ... mother of dragons, slayer of lies … (ACOK Daenerys IV)

Now, here are my observations/questions/doubts:

The “cloth dragon” receiving a round of cheers from the crowd seems to indicate that a) Tommen will indeed fall from power when Young Griff (who’s already in Westeros almost ready to attack) invades King’s Landing and that b) Young Griff will inspire love from the population.

The more obvious possibility is that the second dance of dragons refers to a Dany versus Young Griff confrontation, especially since she’s prophesied to slay the lie that he represents (that he’s not Rhaegar Targaryen's son, but actually Illyrio’s son and a Blackfyre). However, since Victarion is currently in Meereen with a dragonbinder, it’s very likely that Dany will lose control of one of her dragons to a Greyjoy (either Victarion or Euron Greyjoy himself) and then will arrive in Westeros with only two of her three dragons. Or maybe Euron will use one of the dragons to attack Young Griff and that will be the second dance (though I find that unlikely since, again, Dany is prophesied to slay Young Griff’s lie). Or the second dance could actually refer to Dany versus Euron.

There are alternative speculations to consider. Right now, the consensus in the Dany fandom seems to be that there���s already too much in Dany’s plate for her (uniting all the khalasars and being hailed as the SWMTW; going back to Meereen; meeting Tyrion, Jorah, Moqorro and other characters; maybe going to Yunkai; going to Volantis; etc) to go to King’s Landing, which led to people assuming that only Cersei and JonCon will be involved in the city’s burning. It’s even theorized that Dany might actually skip King’s Landing and go to the Wall instead. These theories make a lot of sense and aren’t implausible, but it’s hard to reconcile them with GRRM’s initial intention with Dany (though it’s also been argued that he may have given part of her initial role to Young Griff). Additionally, I don’t think timeline issues are necessarily a guarantee of what GRRM will do with Dany. He made Tyrion travel much faster than reasonable back in AGOT to have him meet Catelyn in the inn at the crossroads and to be taken captive by her. So I wouldn't put it past GRRM to do something similar with Dany by having her arrive earlier in King’s Landing than she reasonably would just because he wants it to happen. And, as much as I don’t want it to happen and even though I criticized the theory before, I don’t think it’s impossible (though it’s not guaranteed either) for Dany to be accidentally involved in the burning of King’s Landing (though there is a recent counter-theory to that as well).

Re: Cersei, a lot of people tend to assume that she’s going to die when Young Griff takes King’s Landing, but I am not really sure. I do think that her parallels with Aerys II will pay off and reflect her ending. But that doesn’t prevent Cersei from surviving Young Griff’s invasion and meeting Dany later. Cersei could escape to Casterly Rock and they could meet there. Or Cersei could later attempt to retake the capital again in another impractical plan of hers, which then leads to King’s Landing burning. I don’t know.

Does Dany have to meet everyone to fulfill these prophecies? I’m not sure. Does Dany necessarily need to meet Young Griff and Stannis to slay their lies? Does she necessarily need to meet Cersei so that the readership finds out that she’s the YMBQ? Will there even be an actual moment that makes it “obvious for the reader that Daenerys is the YMBQ”? I don’t know, Anon. It may end up being up for people’s interpretation. Dany might end up burning the Iron Throne, if the theory about her accidentally burning King’s Landing actually happens. Dany might willingly melt the Iron Throne and install a new form of government that gives the smallfolk more political influence. Both of these possibilities could symbolize the end of Cersei’s desire for absolute power, even if Cersei and Dany don’t actually meet. I’m not even sure that there will be a moment that outright reveals that Dany is AA/PTWP/SWMTW (even though, IMO, the foreshadowing is way too overwhelming for it not to be her).

Speculating about Dany being the YMBQ is fun for me because it requires delving into her characterization, her parallels with Cersei and canon material in general. On the other hand, speculating about how this would actually happen is, IMO, less interesting (though I still enjoy reading what other people have to say) because it’s hard to accurately predict future plot points with the current information that we have (and I resent how fandom already accepts so many theories as unpublished canon). Dany has too many places to be and too many things to do and it’s not certain that she’ll be in King’s Landing when it burns (though I tend to think she will for the aforementioned reasons), the second dance of dragons can refer to different confrontations, it’s not certain that Dany needs to meet Cersei (or Young Griff or Stannis) to fulfill all these prophecies and it’s not certain that Dany is going to be explicitly revealed as the person who fulfills all these prophecies. We still have two books worth of plot development, so I really don’t think it’s possible to predict how the actual events will unfold. Sorry about not being able to give more definitive answers... I actually ended up making more questions. But that's kind of the point for now.

[miazeklos]

that line is great but honestly so is the entire Taena bit in that chapter and i'm kinda sad that it's always seen as the "ooooo she's turning into Robert" chapter because i don't think that's it at all!!! the whole point there is that she's trying to act like him and failing because she's not like him!!!

That's what I've been saying! Honestly, I know this is coming from a certified Cersei Apologist (TM) so it's probably not surprising at all, but this is the chapter that officially convinced me that, as I had thought, she's meant to be a better person than him lol.

This is probably mildly TMI, but at least from personal experience, when you've been mistreated in life, you often end up thinking about what you did to deserve it, whether they were the problem or you were, whether there was a point to it at all, things like that, and trying to figure it out is... a process. Obviously - and thankfully - I've never felt the urge to recreate the things done to me to someone else, but even the thought of being like that has brought the same realisations that Cersei comes to in the book.

Like, what she does perfectly replicates Robert's behaviour - she blames the wine for her behaviour, she tries to do what he does, and technically she's better at it, because unlike her, her partner is enjoying what is happening when she "claims her rights", but she's chasing a specific sensation:

“I am the queen. I mean to claim my rights.” “Do what you will.” (...) “Please,” the Myrish woman said, “go on, my queen. Do as you will with me. I’m yours.” (...) But it was no good. She could not feel it, whatever Robert felt on the nights he took her. There was no pleasure in it, not for her. For Taena, yes.

She then flips the script and compares Taena to Robert so that she's the aggressor in a different way:

For a moment she let herself imagine that her fingers were a boar’s tusks, ripping the Myrish woman apart from groin to throat.

But, alas:

It was still no good. It had never been any good with anyone but Jaime.

At this point, she finally puts this ghost to rest because she realises that she's never going to feel what Robert felt when he abused her - because he didn't actually feel anything special. He was just a bad person and he didn't care who he was hurting, and sometimes that realisation hurts more because it means that everything you went through was even more pointless than it originally felt.

When she tried to take her hand away, Taena caught it and kissed her fingers. "Sweet queen, how shall I pleasure you?" She slid her hand down Cersei's side and touched her sex. "Tell me what you would have of me, my love." "Leave me." Cersei rolled away and pulled up the bedclothes to cover herself, shivering. Dawn was breaking. It would be morning soon, and all of this would be forgotten. It had never happened.

Arguably, Cersei's experience with Taena (or rather, vice versa) was better than her experience with Robert because at least someone enjoyed themselves, but 'it's still no good'. And the thing with Robert is that for him, those nights 'never happened' because he was ashamed of what he'd done. Cersei isn't ashamed; she's disappointed and disgusted and wants to forget the whole thing because, again, her hypothesis that she'd feel powerful if she acted like him was proven wrong and she just feels as lonely and isolated as before because there's only one person she really wants and this has given her nothing.

TL;DR: Anyone saying she's ~turning into Robert~ is not only annoying, but also wrong, and Cersei is a better person that he could ever be. In this essay... well. I already wrote the essay.

[atopvisenyashill]

actual book plots

that’s right we’re morphing “changes i noticed” into “things from the book” bc it’s rare enough now

tyrion on a road trip from hell - so the thing is usually these road trips involve a highborn and lowborn character in some sort of horror comedy road trip. dunk & egg. gendry & arya. brienne & her rotating band of brothers and then podrick. and tyrion in the book does have a lowborn companion for the second half of his journey - penny! and she’s nowhere to be found. it’s a huge loss and it sure is a pattern. anyways so both penny AND joncon are replaced with jorah but tyrion is just doing the same snarky routine in a different place instead of the introspection and traumatic spiral we get in the books.

cersei and the tyrells battle it out in king’s landing - the sexual relationship between margaery and tommen is crazy and they don’t even like, idk, go anywhere with it; it’s just kind of there to dangle in cersei’s face and then margaery is arrested. i wonder if they planned from the beginning to do it this way or if they did it this way specifically bc they knew natalie dormer DIDNT want margaery & tommen to have sex.

um anyways i think we really miss how desperate cersei is for a posse in the way they adapted this story bc they cut taena, they leave her on good terms with jaime, and they honestly don’t even have her cahooting with qyburn that often. the homophobia stuff is so fucking obnoxious, it’s not only not how homophobia really works in westeros, it’s also just like schlocky drama bc they had to do something with loras since he’s not on the kingsguard. diana rigg definitely deserved the emmy for this one, and lena & natalie are still really amazing even when the stories are a bit off the rails.

bryan cogman’s theonsa fanfiction - like. is it well written? sometimes. is it a good adaptation of theon’s arc? no. is it better than what’s in the book? also no. so what are we doing here exactly. because they don’t just randomly - and in a very “put these guys on a list” way - slot sansa into jeyne’s role which is already such a massive change, but they also cut every single arc that is happening in winterfell during theon’s chapters there except for the part where ramsay is raping & terrorizing his wife and theon is depressed about it. that’s insane. ramsay’s story is annoying and his feelings dominate screentime. brienne & pod start off interestingly - not in their story part at ALL but like, fine - and then completely disappear to make room for more of ramsay’s evil girlfriend. sophie & alfie are giving their all, i think the scene where she grabs him is soooo good, but jfc.

arya in the house of black and white - so once again. there’s just a lot of weird and needless differences in the people she meets and the way she acts even though the overreaching plot is the same. i think maisie is doing some amazing work, honestly her best yet. she’s very engaging to watch, i think being in an environment besides the war torn riverlands really allowed her to stretch herself. i think even with the changes, it’s. idk more or less the story arya is experiencing in the books? she is learning magic, interacting with and working through her feelings about her family, death, justice, and suffering, and it’s an okay version of it that is made my favorite story line largely because maisie is so engaging. also loved seeing arya in some new fits lol.

misc. thoughts

i miss joffrey omg

kit’s acting was VERY bad in basically all of this season and the story line was also boring. i liked the sam, aemon, & gilly scenes but jon’s scenes on the whole are boring. the hardhome fight scene is kinda cool - the shut doors + the watching from the boats was really creepy - but frustrating on several levels. olly’s entire existence pisses me off. i can’t believe i’m saying this but i miss val, and also i miss alys karstark.

they wasted alexander siddig and indira varma here they really did.

i think ellaria is the exact sort of character that grrm criticizes - she’s a lord’s bastard sure but a bastard nonetheless and she’s just really obviously actively hostile and doran just lets her act that way. literally the moment doran gets a whiff of them acting up in the book he jails them! it’s just wild.

every sand snake and bronn scene was so stupid.

the meereenese knot - it’s like, fine. once again joel fry is really wasted on these people, i think he’s an excellent dramatic actor, he outshines emilia FIERCELY, and hizdarr (who bears little resemblance to his book counterpart to be clear) is interesting as a character because he could be an interesting reflection and foil to dany, as someone born with a fancy last name who partook in the practice of slavery but does not necessarily agree with the slave trade. i think i understand having a composite character here, there’s a lot of confusing names, it’s called the knot for a reason, but hizdarr shouldn’t have been the ONLY ghiscari character (they shouldn’t have killed the other guy off that early? it was a stupid fucking story) that’s a regular in meereen, but i kind of get what they were going for in having him be a bit more reznak like, but then every time dany & hizdar really start to talk morality, the scene just abruptly comes to an end, and then he dies trying to help her out in the attack on the pits. waste of a composite character idea, waste of a story line, waste of joel fry.

grey worm and missandei work largely off the strength of the acting but it’s some good ass acting so i’ll allow it. dany & daario have no chemistry however and they’re constantly together. i hate it.

……do you know who she does have chemistry with. i can’t type it i hate it omg.

i’ll tell u what the drogon scene was really fun tho, emilia does her best acting when she’s acting against nothing

i’m gonna be honest i can’t believe peter won for this season bc i don’t think they gave him anything particularly interesting to do.

so in the show basically every scene shireen has centers on either her relationship with davos or stannis. she is always seen in the context of the sweet princess Davos is delighted to serve or the understanding daughter of a man who desperately wanted a son. i think her relationship with stannis is really interesting - they both crave a relationship with each other but stannis just, kind of let the world distance him from his daughter, and he regrets it but can’t bridge the gap and shireen forgives him because she needs to believe one day they’ll have the relationship she wants. and it ends where it begins - they love each other but it’s never enough for him. i just don’t think they made the situation in the north dire enough to justify burning her, so like the red wedding it felt very anti climactic to me. also as i said before, i think this change where meli & selyse are actively keeping shireen around as a fallback plan to burn & keeping it from stannis is like, idek, im not saying i don’t think they’re capable of that but i just think the smirky witchiness here is a lot less compelling.

anyways i think stannis’ death scene at brienne’s hands was incredibly goofy and stupid and completely antithetical to the themes that brienne’s story is about and even tho i think gwendoline & stephen are very talented the whole scene was like. oh alright i guess this is happenin now too huh.

altho “any last words?” “go on do your duty” was a very brienne and stannis exchange

speaking of jaime, i have no other words for his story line in dorne & with myrcella besides “perplexing.” why did they do this.

updated cards:

[agameoftragedy]

If you bounced into Cersei’s body just after the battle of the blackwater. What would you have done to secure power for yourself and children? Create a stable government (or how much you can) for Westeros, and not be forced away from Tywin? And how’d you get the Tyrell’s onside?

Misunderstood this at first as Cersei being dead, but you mean if I suddenly possessed Cersei after the BotB? Hmmm, thing is I still have a personality. And does the prophecy hold? I can understand her wanting to protect her kids from that, even if from a detached strategic level it might be better for her house if she remarried. I think it's still good to be at the heart of the action, so perhaps try to negotiate with Tywin (and an appropriate family) a marriage where your new husband would come to King's Landing so you aren't separated from your boys and the heart of the kingdoms (though I personally am not keen on having to have sex and pregnancy, so does that matter?). But anyway, then you have a potential new branch of allies for yourself and your side. Also, what do I know? Do I know about the plan to kill Joffrey, which Cersei didn't? And do I definitely want to stop it, Joffrey being who he is? Do I get maternal feelings for all the 'Baratheon' kids? And if I don't know, do I still believe the accusations against Tyrion, which doesn't help the supposed Martell alliance and gets Tywin killed? And might eventually aid Daenerys and/or 'Aegon' coming and tearing us down? Like, in that respect, I think we're doomed anway unless both Targ claimants die. Anyway, if you're thinking of Cersei's AFFC arc more specifically, one of the main things is to not do what Cersei does. You just have to hold firm against the Tyrells encroaching too much, you don't have to go to war with Margaery - Tommen living happily and healthily for a good few years at least is very much in their interests, as well as his regime being strong, you have mutual interests in that respect and trying to fight the Tyrells just undermines it all. Plus that means less issue in combating threats like Euron because you're not too busy trying to off Loras and whatever. Also, at an earlier point in time: do what you can to make Sansa as happy as possible under the circumstances. Assuming she's still married off to Tyrion, it's still hoped she'll get the North with a Lannister child, and that's (marginally) more likely if she's not miserable, terrified and despising everyone, keep her away from Joffrey, maybe only have her at court when it's like procedurally necessary that she be there. Oh, also, I can not get in bed (literally and figuratively) with Taena and the Kettleblacks, and actually listen to, think and plan for the local issues surrounding the Stokeworths and Bronn and also Rosby, all of which have/will probably come back to bite Cersei in the ass. And I don't have to get involved with Qyburn and his experiments either. There are so many ways to not do what Cersei does, and basically all of them are beneficial tbh.

[ddagent]

JB + love letters

Thank you for the prompt, Anon! I hope you enjoy this take; it’s a riff on ‘To All the Boys I’ve Loved Before’. 

“Well, that was Cersei on the phone,” Jaime said, huffing as he took the seat opposite his dear brother. “She wants to postpone the wedding. She’s heading to Sunspear for a few days. She needs time to think.”

Across from him, Tyrion simply took a sip of his drink. “Really? How interesting?”

“‘How interesting’? That’s all you have to say?” Jaime clenched the arms of his chair in the hotel lounge, desperately wanting to spend an hour in front of a punching bag, or an afternoon with a sword. Just something to release the anger he felt. He settled for raising his voice. “How could you do this to me?”

This being sending Jaime’s old love letters to their recipients a week before his wedding. Growing up, he’d had trouble verbalising his feelings, so he’d taken to writing them down on paper. Tyrion must have found them while snooping for dirt for his best man speech, and posted them for some yet-to-be-determined reason. 

Five letters, five women. Five reasons he wasn’t getting married in three days.

The first had not raised any red flags: after all, it had been written to his step-sister and current fiancee, Cersei. She’d thought it somewhat saccharine, but the letter had quickly been forgotten in favour of wedding preparations. But then her childhood friend Melara had shown up at the hotel clutching a love letter from Jaime, and things had only gone from bad to worse. Catelyn Tully-Stark, who Jaime had spent many a summer with, had been far too polite on the phone as she explained she was now happily married with five children. Taena, who had worked at Lannister Holdings for a time, had arrived at his hotel room in a trenchcoat and not much else. 

That was when Cersei decided she needed time to think. And Jaime couldn’t blame her. He blamed Tyrion instead. 

“I know you and Cersei have never got along—”

“—understatement of the century, Brother,” Tyrion said; index finger tapping the glass. “You deserve better.”

“So, what, you sent out my old love letters to find me a better bride?” Jaime slumped in his chair. “I love her, Tyrion.”

“And does she love you? Truly?” He made to answer, but his brother cut him off. “Was Cersei upset because all your old flames were coming out of the woodwork so close to your wedding? Or was she upset because you have not been entirely devoted to her throughout your entire life? The first is understandable. The second is cause for concern.” Tyrion grinned around the rim of his drink. “And she didn’t even meet the worst one.”

“Brienne.”

“Jaime?”

His hands clenched around the arms of his chair as he heard a voice as familiar to him as his own. Jaime turned, and was greeted by the sight of Brienne Tarth – albeit nearly twenty years older than his recollections. Over the years, he’d thought he’d exaggerated her presence; the blue of her eyes. But he’d recalled her perfectly. Of course, there were a couple of lines, now; her hair was longer. But her gaze was still kind and her smile was still warm and in her grasp was his letter. 

Shooting Tyrion yet another death glare, Jaime rose from his seat and addressed his best friend. They hadn’t seen each other in years, but she had been his only one. “Brienne. It’s good to see you.”

“And you. I–um–I got your letter.” She handed the blue envelope to him; he’d been so proud of finding paper the colour of her eyes. “I opened it, but when you started talking about the tourney reenactment as if it was last week, I realised it was an old letter. I didn’t read any more. It felt too…personal.”

Jaime took the letter. “That’s good of you. You could have posted it back, you know. You didn’t have to travel all the way to Lannisport.” 

Brienne’s teeth toyed with her bottom lip. Jaime remembered classes and study sessions and time spent together where that sole action brought a flutter of butterflies to his stomach. It still did. “Well, I did, actually. I–Gods, I’m going to sound utterly ridiculous.” 

“You won’t.” 

“I wanted to thank you. You were the best part of university for me, and knowing that someone – least of all you – liked me that way is…it’s a good feeling.” She ran a hand through her hair; a familiar pink flush covering her cheeks. “Please, make fun of me for being so stupid.” 

Jaime shook his head. “I won’t.”

“For once,” she said, with a grin, and Jaime felt his stomach do somersaults. “It’s really good to see you, Jaime. I’m sorry we lost touch.”

“Me too.” 

For the three years of his undergraduate degree, and the year of his masters, Brienne Tarth had been the focal point of his whole world. First a rival, then a peer, then his dearest friend. He’d fallen in love with her somewhere in their second year, and he hadn’t stopped loving her after he’d returned home to Lannisport, and she to Tarth. But their lives had grown busy; communication had dwindled. A few years later, Cersei had returned from her internship at the Iron Bank, and he’d rekindled his first love. 

But now his greatest stood in front of him. “How long are you in town for?”

“A few days. I’d hoped–I mean–your office said you were here for a wedding.” Brienne fiddled with the strap of her bag. “but I had hoped we could catch up; grab a coffee. Obviously, you’ve got the wedding—”

“—wedding’s been postponed,” Jaime blurted. “Bride needs some time to think, and…the groom does, too. So, yes, let’s do coffee. Or dinner – we could do dinner!”

Brienne beamed. “Dinner sounds good. Let me give you my number, and we can sort out a time and place.” 

Jaime looked up at Brienne, watching a strand of hair fall across her forehead, as she typed her number into his phone. Once done, Brienne made her departure through the hotel lobby. Jaime then re-took his seat in front of Tyrion, who had refilled his drink during his re-connection with Brienne. His brother said nothing; simply sipped his drink.

Perhaps he wouldn’t kill Tyrion after all. At least, not until after dinner.

[ajoblotofjunk]

DVD commentary for the July chapter of HFOG! or just the motorcycle ride if that’s too much lol

All of July is too much for me mentally right now so I’ll do the motorcycle ride. :D This got (unsurprisingly!!) long, so lemme put a Keep Reading cut in real quick.

A week later, on the off Sunday between Winterfell and Lannisport, Jaime was spending his birthday alone at the office.

I’ll do this whole section, since it being on his birthday was the trigger I used to get Jaime to ask her to go on the bike. This scene was one of like three I had in my head from pretty much the beginning. I find motorcycles extremely sexy (I’m an easy target okay) and I loved the idea of forcing these two knuckleheads into that much physical contact in what should theoretically be a platonic experience; I just had to figure out how to get them there since Brienne just spent the last part of June pushing Jaime back a step. Hard to say no to a lonely man on his birthday though.

going clubbing until they were both passed out or dead by the end of it. Bronn was home with Lollys, probably having enough sex to stock them up until August, and Jaime wasn’t really close enough with the rest of the crew to consider spending time with them outside of work.

I think this was the month where I decided Bronn was going to be genuinely happy with Lollys. I know I mentioned her early on but I toyed around in my head for awhile with the idea that he was still kind of loose and maybe even unfaithful to her, and I decided I didn’t want to go that way. I wanted to like Bronn in this fic. He’s kind of my Sarcastic Wise Elder character for these two and I really grew to love the idea that he is just as much an inner softie in his heart as Jaime is, that that sharp outer shell/gooey center combo was something that connected them. I think it really helped in the October chapter that Bronn was likable, because then that scene in the hospital between him and Jaime had a much bigger emotional hit.

The only other person he wanted to see was Brienne and though she’d sent him a ‘happy birthday!’ text that morning unprompted, he hadn’t responded for

I laugh to myself thinking about Brienne hovering over that text message all “should I send a gif? is the text going to be enough? what about emojis? Is it weird if I text him at all? He didn’t tell me it was his birthday but I definitely know it’s his birthday because I have memorized a lot of unimportant facts about a man I am Definitely Not Into.”

lunch, smoked what he swore was the only cigarette he would have as a thirty-six year old, and then aimlessly watched TV for a few hours before driving his motorcycle into the office.

Jaime uses smoking to fill the hole of the things he wants but believes he’ll never have. At the start of the fic that’s respect and winning races. As he slowly gets those things, he smokes whenever he’s thinking about Brienne, even though he does not realize it consciously. Once he gets all three, he stops smoking for good.

There had been a scattered handful of engineers there that afternoon, working away in preparation for the different requirements of Lannisport next week, but

Honestly, sometimes remembering there were hundreds of people working on this team in particular was exhausting. 😂 I always had this constant voice in the back of my head of Lannister Corp scenes of “where are all these other workers and what are they doing?” It works here because I needed the ride to happen at night, but this is just giving me flashbacks to “oh right this team is actually 500-1000 people, not just these 12.”

He raised his glass of water to his empty office. “Happy birthday to me,” he muttered, taking a sip. It wasn’t even flavored water, which felt like such a maudlin statement on his life that he couldn’t finish it.

The “it wasn’t even flavored water” line still makes me laugh to this day. It’s one of my favorite moments in the entire story. It’s so DRAMATIC. Like, my god man, get a hold of yourself. Anyway, I love drama queen Jaime.

He probably should have texted Taena or Melara, but he didn’t want to spend time with them. He didn’t want to listen to his sister’s barely concealed insults

I had a whole bit…I think it was in August? Might have been earlier, I can’t recall now, anyway, two or three paragraphs talking about how Jaime met Melara and Taena and why they all worked out this arrangement and Brynn (rightly) made the point that it didn’t actually add anything to the story I was telling. I managed to cover what really mattered about it in two sentences instead. The moral of this is that this story could have been even longer but Brynn is the best so you should thank her.

find out what she did on her off days, what kind of birthday cake she liked, if

Chocolate with chocolate and fruit filling and chocolate frosting, FYI.

Brienne’s worried frown deepened. “Have you done anything for your birthday today?”

“I had a cigarette.”

She shook her head, looking disappointed. “Anything that doesn’t shorten your life by doing it?”

I also really like this line. I’m a fan of Worried Mom Friend Brienne, too.

“I drank some water,” he grumbled.

Unflavored! Like an ANIMAL. 😂

“Have you even eaten?”

“I feel like we’ve had this conversation before.”

She blinked, startled, and then a sheepish grin swarmed over her face. “I guess some things don’t change. At least you didn’t insult me this time.”

“Progress,” he said, smiling, watching her features go soft and open in a way he’d probably dream about that night. Distance, his brain reminded him.

I didn’t plan for this quiet callback to the sandwich conversation from January, but I really was pleased to see it happen. It makes sense; Brienne wants the people she cares about to take care of themselves and where back in January I think she felt she was being more his Mom, here they’re both aware she’s being his friend and that’s part of why it’s a softer moment.

“Then come riding with me. Have you been on a motorcycle before?”

“No. My dad was firmly against it after Galladon died.”

At this point in the fic I was pretty sure Brienne was going to drive although I hadn’t worked out all the details of how I was going to get there yet, but when I wrote this I definitely shored up the “Selwyn is very overprotective” support I’d only just started to build back with the phone call in January. I also knew when I wrote this that Jaime was going to bring the motorcycle to Tarth and her dad was going to be all about it, even though I wasn’t sure how that was going to happen. 

“Well,” he said, standing slowly, “your dad’s not here now, is he?”

Fun fact: this story idea first appeared to me in relation to Bruce Springsteen’s “I’m On Fire” and there’s a lyric in there - ‘hey little girl is your daddy home, did he go and leave you all alone’ - that this quietly references. And actually I wanted the whole motorcycle ride to have the exact same feeling when you’re reading it as I feel listening to that song! It’s a direct path from there to here emotionally.

(In some other universe instead of this I wrote a fic where Jaime keeps bringing his car in to Selwyn’s Garage just so he can see Brienne, grease smudged on her face, and he asks her to deliver it to his home and she does and, well. It doesn’t go like the video. *g*)

(That video and song were very formative influences on young me though I was not aware of it at the time. If you haven’t heard the song or seen the video, here you go: https://youtu.be/lrpXArn3hII)

Jaime arched an eyebrow. “My bike is plenty big.”

Brienne snorted but the red in her cheeks spread out to her crooked her nose and down the freckled length of her long neck. “Sounds like you’re compensating, Lannister.”

I could show you he thought but he bit it back, as well as the image of pushing her against the door of his office and- No. Bad. he told both his errant thoughts and his twitching cock like they were misbehaving dogs. 

Jaime has been horny for her since April (January though he would refuse to acknowledge it if you told him that at this point), give him a break.

He came around the desk and held out his hand and she stared down at it like it was a snake she was trying to decide was poisonous or not.

Brienne gingerly wrapped her long fingers around his

I wanted Brienne to actively participate in the decision to do this, to show through her actions (not just Jaime’s perceptions of her) that she wants this, too. I had to ramp things up for both of them in this chapter because I knew what was coming in August and I wanted them to be ready for that. I couldn’t have gone from where they were in June to the kiss in August, I had to force them together in a way they hadn’t intended so that when they come together intentionally it feels like a natural progressions, and that meant both of them had to be wanting it.

What are you doing? his brain demanded as he led Brienne through the empty corridors out to the front parking lot.

 Enjoying my birthday for once.

I like this because it’s both Jaime making excuses for why he’s doing something really foolish if he’s supposed to be keeping his distance but ALSO true and a sad reflection on his life (and what Brienne brings to it even now).

His bike was parked in Tywin’s CEO spot, where he always parked as a small, childish fuck you to his father. Brienne gasped as they walked up, pulling her hand away to brush the gleaming chrome.

“You have an Iron Throne!”

I know. I KNOW. But I love calling it that. I cast around for motorcycle names for awhile and when I hit on this I could not resist. Iron Thrones in this fic world are basically those giant Harleys that would easily seat two people.

weight of her against his palms. Brienne’s eyes narrowed and he worried for a second she’d heard his thoughts. “It’s not safe to ride without a helmet though, and I don’t have one. Do you have an extra?”

Jaime hadn’t brought his today, either. “We could wear driving helmets.”

As I recall it, Brynn came up with the idea of the helmet scene or at least definitely helped me work out how it was going to go when I got stuck on it. She made the point it should be a cute moment between them and it was right because it made the whole ride seem fun instead of just weighty and tense. The fact they actually have FUN together is really important to me because I think it’s really important to successful relationships in general. If you’re going to be with this person for the rest of you life, I hope like hell you enjoy spending time with them.

When she saw the helmet he had she laughed, the sound bursting up into the sky like a flock of startled birds.

I’m not usually happy with how I describe things - I never feel like it’s as interesting or descriptive or powerful as I want - but I do like this line a lot.

“It’s a helmet,” he said, holding it out to her. The helmet was a bright neon green and covered with frogs forming the words MOAT CAILIN with their bodies. “I got it from one of our sponsors a few years ago and kept it thinking someday I’d wear it just to piss off my father.”

What does Moat Cailin do? I genuinely have no idea. 😂

Brienne took the helmet and held it out away from her like it was a very stinky baby. “You’re sure no one is going to see us?”

“Now who’s vain?”

This made me laugh. I love when Brienne gets to be light-hearted.

“Isn’t there some biker lingo you should use instead?”

“Hop on my hog, sexy mama?”

Goofy Jaime: also a personal favorite. This is kind of an early insight into how he’s going to be in later months when he’s truly, unburdenedly (I made that word up) happy.

Brienne laughed even harder that time and shook her head. “You are so annoying,” she said fondly, climbing on behind him.

The “you’re annoying”/”you’re stubborn” back and forth is something I have been trying to consistently but not overwhelmingly carry through this fic from very early on.

“Since you’ve never ridden before, the primary rule is that you have to lean into the curves with me. If you’re balanced differently than I am it might bring the whole bike down.

Having ridden a motorcycle: this is actually true. It was the first thing the person I was riding with told me.

Her arms fully encircled his waist, her body pressed so firmly against his back he imagined he could feel the weight of her small breasts through his own shirt. He had no jacket but he didn’t need one; even if it hadn’t been for the drowsy summer heat, Brienne’s warmth against him stoked enough fire he could have burned all night.

You shouldn’t ride a motorcyle without proper gear, kids, but Jaime doesn’t give a fuck and for the purpose of this kind of intimate contact, neither do I for this story. 😁

It was almost like sex, the way they moved together around the curves, the blood thrumming in his veins, her occasional breathless gasp. He had to shift a little on his seat to make room for his awkward erection, but he pressed the bike faster, the curves tighter, until she was welded against him and the wind whipped her joyful laughter from her mouth, leaving it like tracers behind them in the dark. 

This is the image in my head when I thought of them on the motorcycle ride. Everything before and after this paragraph is just set up and pay off for this one part.

Centuries ago there had been a keep at the top of Aegon’s High Hill, but all that was left now were old stones weathered by time and the salt air off of Blackwater Bay.

Thank goodness for the internet, and people who post very detailed maps of King’s Landing and Westeros so I can figure out some of this stuff. I have spent a surprising amount of time for this fic looking at maps.

“Why were you at work today?” he asked, staring at her.

Brienne pulled off her hoodie to reveal a tank top underneath, her muscular shoulders bunching as she did so in a way that made his mouth go dry.

There’s a gif that was being posted in the Oathkeepers discord around the time I was writing this that I had in mind explicitly for this moment. 😄

Her skin seemed to absorb the light, making it white and smooth as milkglass, her freckles mirroring the infinite stars. “Truthfully,” she said, “I wanted to spend some time alone with the car.” Even in the moonlight the reddening of her pale cheeks was clear.

Survey says: Mostly true. She also was thinking of him, since it was his birthday. She genuinely did NOT expect him to be there, though.

Jaime walked to the edge of the flat gravel and stared across the Rush to roughly where he thought Tarth would be way down south in the Stormlands. It had been years since he’d been and he didn’t remember it well, but he wished he could so he could picture Brienne there.

Again, I knew he was going to be in Tarth the very next chapter, so I wanted to lay the groundwork for it to seem natural he would be. Bringing it up here was a perfect opportunity for that.

They put their helmets back on, and Brienne her hoodie, and she climbed on behind him again, her arms automatically curling around his waist this time instead of the distant grip of the start. He started the engine and leaned forward a little, and she leaned her head against his shoulder as they took the drive down more slowly.

This easy warmth was important, too. Again, the sexual tension is critical to get them to their breaking point because they’re sure as hell not going to talk about how much they care about each other first (or even for a long while after they start having sex, as we discover), but I wanted there to be something deeper to their bond, too, a connection that I could build on in the second half of the story where you believe they’ll be happy together as an established couple. That they’re comfortable together.

The trip down the hill was as solemn as the stars above and when he parked again in front of the Lannister Corp Racing offices Brienne took her helmet off and stared quietly at him when he remained seated, his visor pushed up.

I think subconsciously this is when Brienne really falls in love with him, because it’s just Jaime being Jaime, and sharing something important to him with her and that kind of openness is the key to her heart.

Sadness gleamed like the stars in her big twilight eyes. Brienne put a hand on his shoulder and his whole body went rigid under her touch. Her fingers crept to the nape of his neck under his helmet, softly brushed through the short hair there before she dragged them away again as her pale skin reddened. 

Brienne was more reserved here in the initial draft of this and Brynn thought there should be more and she was - as usual - absolutely right. So the touch was added to fully seal the momentous connection that happened here.

“You can get home okay?” he asked.

“I’ll take the bus, there’s a stop just by the sports bar.”

Brienne the Bus Rider strikes again. Hee.

He couldn’t even quit smoking; how was he ever going to quit wanting Brienne?

These two things are connected here for a reason! As noted above. Hee.

Wow this was fun for me, thank you for asking! 😊

[DVD Commentary Meme - Asks are open]

[agentrouka-blog]

Do you think cersei and dany can be called femme fatales? I was reading that post about how it would be reductive to call arianne a femme fatale. I think with cersei and dany it will be reductive too. Cersei and dany are both abused in this partriachal society and have to use sex to make things in their favour despite not liking. But they both are abuser to others for their own pleasure (lancel,taena n irri). What do you think?

The closest we have to a femme fatale is Cersei. Dany doesn't fit at all, at no point does she use seduction to achieve a goal. 

Cersei espouses the philosophy of the "weapon between your legs" and she tries to use it, but it's undercut by the fact that either her plans go spectacularly awry (Jaime in the kingsguard) or the sexual affair is secondary to other pressures (Lancel obeyed his aunt and his queen) or the power dynamic is swapped around (Osney Kettleblack) or all of it. 

Littlefinger tries to push Sansa in this direction with Harry but there, too, it is undercut by Sansa's own, much more innocent and genuinely engaging spin on the concept. She knows she has to "bewitch" Harry, but what really gets him? "No one told me you were clever."

If anything, GRRM dismantles the Femme Fatale trope. Both by erasing the air of mystery in the female deceiver by giving us her complex perspective and erasing the air of "victimization" of the male object by showing diverse power constellations, and also by showing the strategy to be ineffective.

[albatrossisland]

A week ago, on the last night before the election, for the life of me, I could not get to sleep; it was like Christmas Eve, but the present was anxiety.

But, one thing that helped me eventually get to sleep was thinking about Taylor Swift’s ‘Folklore.’ It’s an album of story songs, and I tried imagining ways the songs could be adapted into J/B stories. 

Here are the best ones. 

Not saying I’m ever going to write these, so just putting these out into the world, in case someone needs some inspiration.

The Teenage Trilogy (Cardigan/August/Betty)

Jaime and Brienne are in high school and secretly dating; she thinks it’s because he’s ashamed of her, but it’s really because he wants to protect her from his mean girl sister. But she finally gets fed up and dumps him, leaving them both devastated.

Later in the summer, Jaime starts dating Taena, his sister’s friend that’s been in love with him forever. He doesn’t feel the same, but let’s Cersei set them up. Taena is thrilled, but soon realizes that he’s in love with someone else, and breaks up with him, telling him that he still has a chance.

Jaime rushes over to Brienne’s house for her end of the summer gathering, and asks her to take him back. The end.

(Yeah, it’s more or less @angel-deux-writes Two Halves of a Soul, but what are you gonna do, not eat two cakes?)

The Last Great American Dynasty

Brienne marries her wealthy longtime friend Renly, mainly so his family will get off his back about being a bachelor. The care for each other, but only as friends, as he is in love with their houseguest, Loras.

But, when Renly dies of an overdose, Brienne retreats from society, but does sponsor a group of ballet dancers, her old passion, and she meets their star, Jaime.

My Tears Ricochet

J/B have been married for about five years, and they have a nasty, brutal fight, that culminates in Jaime walking out of the house (to cool off), but while he’s gone, he’s killed in a car accident, and Brienne is left with grief and anger. 

(I didn’t limit myself to happy endings, but wow brain, I don’t even wanna read that, let alone right it).

Seven

J/B were best friends when they were seven, but then she moved away, and being so young, they lost touch for nearly 20 years. Until a chance encounter brings them back together, and they realized how much has changed, and how much hasn’t.

Invisible String

J/B meet briefly during a trip to the coast when they are young adults, around 18-19, and while they don’t get names, they both feel like there is something there, something binding them together. But after their night together, they separate, and they don’t have any contact info.

They meet ten years by chance, and the string is still there, even as everything else has changed.

Peace

I tried to think of one, but the more I thought, the more it feels like the song is really just Chemistry of a Car Crash, so I’m going to leave it alone.

(And just gonna plug that fic for a second, because it’s so, so good, easily one of the best I’ve read. It’s a WIP, but even if it never concludes, it’s worth the ride we’ve been on so far.)

[hairgrowsback]

Jaime Lannister's arc and the limits of redemption

This is what GRRM said when Rolling Stone asked him about Jaime's supposed redemption arc:

One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don’t have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he’s apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise?Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you’re a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don’t know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what’s the answer then? 

So, clearly GRRM doesn't think Jaime is an irredeemable monster, he believes that one can learn to seek forgiveness through their actions. However, it is also clear that with his answer here he was going for something far more complex for  Jaime than just a standard redemption arc.  He compares Jaime to people that our society sees as monsters, if you ask most people if they'd want to give someone like Woody Allen or a nazi criminal a second chance...9 times out of 10 you'd probably hear a resounding "no". Obviously since this is only fiction and Jaime at the end of the day is harmless fictional character who hasn't hurt any actual real people, we can be less harsh on him for his crimes than an actual nazi war criminal lol but at the same time I do also think that GRRM comparing Jaime to these kinds of people indicates that he believes Jaime's actions just aren't that easy to forgive or atone for. That forgiveness and atonement is a long messy journey and yes the answer to his last question of whether there is a possibility of redemption for Jaime could be a no.

In this analysis about Jaime, I would like to make the argument that Jaime's character isn't a straightforward redemption but an arc that ultimately questions the limits of redemption, and does not actually give a comfortable answer about whether Jaime is redeemed or not making Jaime the ultimate grey character of the series. I want to mostly make my point from text from the books as I have always believed that Jaime's arc in the books is like this, but I also want to cite some examples from the show and try to explain what the show was trying to achieve with Jaime.

As readers its hard to not empathize with Jaime when he loses his hand in ASOS, however I also believe that the interpretation that after Jaime loses his hand, everything about him is redemptive because he does become humbled through this trauma and learns to respect and admire Brienne, even saving her life.

However, how much does Jaime think or try to repent for his original sin in regards to Bran? Not much, as in his POV chapters he never even thinks of Bran by his name. The only time he ever shows any regret at all, is this one quick line in ASOS in a conversation with Cersei:

Robert's death still left a bitter taste in Jaime's mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. "I only wished he'd died at my hands." When I still had two of them. "If I'd let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. “I'm not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I've done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . ." "Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you'd gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city."

And while it is good that Jaime now sees pushing Bran as a "shameful" thing, the context of this regret is his irritation that he did not have the chance to kill Robert and marry Cersei. I personally do think that even this one line of regret is soured by this. Jaime clearly still cannot comprehend his role in causing the War of the Five Kings. How his relationship with Cersei and pushing Bran set this domino effect that led to devastation in an entire continent.

Now what I'm saying will probably be disagreed upon, but I do not believe that Jaime's apology to Bran was entirely genuine in the Season 8 either. Jaime showed 0 regret towards his attack at Ned and his men, or his part in the War of the Five Kings, he said he would do all those actions again if he could. Unlike Theon who is filled with guilt to the brim and is constantly expressing remorse over his actions, Jaime did not even tell the Starks about pushing Bran. He essentially lied by omission at his trial and Bran called him out on it by echoing the *"things I do for love"* line. It was Theon and not Jaime who volunteered to sacrifice himself for Bran.

tl;dr: unlike theon, jaime never ever repents for his original sin in regards to Bran in the show and in the books so far, the one moment where he expressed regret towards Bran was filled with anger about not being able to kill Robert and having Cersei in the way he wants.

Now in regards to Jaime's relationship with Cersei, there's a pervasive thought that Jaime was essentially trapped into the relationship, that it was Cersei who forced herself upon Jaime when in fact, Jaime's own thoughts show that the relationship began when kid Cersei and Jaime couldn't stop "experimenting" with each other:

“He could never bear to be long apart from his twin. Even as children, they would creep into each other's beds and sleep with their arms entwined. Even in the womb. Long before his sister's flowering or the advent of his own manhood, **they had seen mares and stallions in the fields and dogs and bitches in the kennels and played at doing the same.** Once their mother's maid had caught them at it . . . he did not recall just what they had been doing, but whatever it was had horrified Lady Joanna. She'd sent the maid away, moved Jaime's bedchamber to the other side of Casterly Rock, set a guard outside Cersei's, and told them that they must never do that again or she would have no choice but to tell their lord father. They need not have feared, though. It was not long after that she died birthing Tyrion. Jaime barely remembered what his mother had looked like.”

From A Feast for Crows:

"I can't remember when we first began to kiss. It was innocent at first. Until it wasn't."

Both Jaime and Cersei's POV support that more often times than not, it was Jaime who initiated their sexual encounters:

“She did not come to him, however. She has never come to me, he thought. She has always waited, letting me come to her. She gives, but I must ask. "

Taena got quite drunk and Cersei pried the name of her secret lover from her. He was a Myrish sea captain, half a pirate, with black hair to the shoulders and a scar that ran across his face from chin to ear. A hundred times I told him no, and he said yes," the other woman told her, "until finally I was saying yes as well. He was not the sort of man to be denied." "I know the sort," the queen said with a wry smile.

"Has Your Grace ever known a man like that, I wonder?""Robert," she lied, thinking of Jaime.

And of course, there's the infamous sept scene where we all know that its Jaime who pressures Cersei into sex (even though no he did not rape her in the books like he did on the show)

The Jaime and Cersei relationship is highly dysfunctional and toxic, but Jaime has never been shackled by Cersei. He made his own choices, being with Cersei was more important to him than being Lord of Casterly Rock or marrying Lysa or anything else. He chose to do things he did for love. Jaime and Cersei was a consensual relationship, Cersei is manipulative but Jaime went along with it and made his choices and yes even coerced her into sex and didn't take "no" for answer. It is a mutually toxic relationship.

Finally, there is this notion that Jaime burning Cersei's letter at the end of AFFC means that he is 100% done with her, has no love for her anymore and has also understood the length of toxicity of House Lannister.

I would like to even counter that proving support that I believe Jaime's feelings for Cersei are far more complex than people realize.

In the same chapter that Jaime burns Cersei's letter he also has all of these other thoughts about Cersei:

 "We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them." 

"I am a knight," he told her, "and Cersei is a queen."A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don't leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she'd left them long ago.

When Jaime has his dream about Joanna, what he says about himself and Cersei shows that he still has not realized just how much he and Cersei have failed at being a queen and a knight. To some extent, he still romanticizes himself and Cersei.

This is the thought he has right before he receives Cersei's letter

There was a time, not long ago, when he might have been out making snowballs with the best of them, to fling at Tyrion when he waddled by, or slip down the back of Cersei's gown. You need two hands to make a decent snowball, though.

Hs dream about Joanna has ironically awakened him even more about his losses. And when he thinks about Cersei in ADWD, we learn that his ultimate decision to burn Cersei's letter was partially motivated because even if he did go back to her, there is no way he could protect her and save her life:

Past time this was ended, thought Jaime Lannister. With Riverrun now safely in Lannister hands, Raventree was the remnant of the Young Wolf’s short-lived kingdom. Once it yielded, his work along the Trident would be done, and he would be free to return to King’s Landing. To the king, he told himself, but another part of him whispered, to Cersei.

He would have to face her, he supposed. Assuming the High Septon had not put her to death by the time he got back to the city. “Come at once,” she had written, in the letter he’d had Peck burn at Riverrun. “Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.” Her need was real enough, Jaime did not doubt. As for the rest … she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … Even if he had gone back, he could not hope to save her. She was guilty of every treason laid against her, and he was short a sword hand.

Jaime also still thinks of Cersei as his wife as of ADWD:

"Do you have a little wife, ser?" No, I have a sister.

So basically while Jaime and Cersei are absolutely estranged, Jaime's feelings for her aren't as black and white as they seem.

As far as Jaime's feelings on the power of House Lannister are concerned..

In season 8, Jaime's only promise was to fight the AOTD, he didn't bend the knee to Daenerys and made no promises of bringing down the Lannister regime.

In the books, Jaime still absolutely supports Tommen as king as of ADWD.

Once he found the Blackfish, he would be free to return to King’s Landing, where he belonged. My place is with my king. With my son.

His seige of Riverrun and helping the Freys get Riverrun is still Jaime actively furthering the power of the Lannister regime. There is nothing to suggest from either the show or books that Jaime will work to destroy House Lannister. One would think true redemption would mean Jaime realizing to bring down the full evils of his house.

Now finally in regards to the valonqar prophecy, the pervasive theory on that has been that Jaime will kill Cersei as part of this big redemptive arc when she tries to blow up the city. However, we know now from Season 8 that unfortunately it is far more likely that Daenerys ends up being like Aerys than Cersei in the books despite all the obvious Cersei and Aerys parallels in AFFC.

Cersei's subplot was likely merged with Faegon's in the show and the wildfire was removed from underneath the Sept of Baelor in the books and D&D have also basically come clear in an Inside the Episode that Cersei blowing up the sept was their invention and not something that comes from GRRM. Cersei will likely get some destructive revenge against the High Sparrow in TWOW but it is unlikely its via sept burning.

tl;dr: as time has gone by it seems less and less likely that if Jaime kills Cersei in the books, it will be an exact mirror of his murder of Aerys imo

But far far more importantly, based on Jaime's trajectory... if GRRM does choose to have Jaime straight up kill Cersei in the books and not do some subversion for that last bit of the valonqar prophecy or whatever... (I actually don't think its impossible that Cersei doesn't get violently murdered in the books just like she didn't in the show HA). It is highly unlikely that it will be painted as a redemptive act. In fact it is far more likely that due to his experiences with Stoneheart in TWOW, it will be Jaime actively choosing Lannister toxicity and Tywin's fucked up cycle of abuse to get vengeance on the woman he loved his entire life, his sister, the mother of his children. No, I do not think it will paint Jaime as 100% monstrous but just not 100% heroic either and show that killing Cersei is something he had to do out of *love* rather than hate. Loving Cersei is an absolute core part of Jaime's character that cannot be erased. Whether Jaime kills Cersei in the books or dies hugging her like he did so on the show, his final moments with Cersei will not be black or white in terms of morality and the question of redemption.

So ultimately the main purpose of my post is that I do not believe it was the show's intention to just erase all of Jaime's character development and make him the same person as season 1 ep 1 in his final moments, but to ultimately have his story be that of a somewhat failed redemption arc. The show just rushed and botched the execution of it due to bad writing (such as the nonsensical "I never cared about the innocents" line). And I also believe that book Jaime is also on the same path, just in different ways since because of the changes in adaptation. Do I think Season 8 was terrible? Absolutely, but Jaime's character in itself is not a complete failure because his arc was always far more complex than that of straightforward redemption.

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

Here's my opinion if you're interested - I used to love Daenerys when I watched the show, up until season 4. I started reading the books then and I realized she was the villian. She went to cities with no idea how to rule, (mereen) and left those cities in poverty and fear of her and what she might do next, yet she claims to be a good queen. (In the books she tortured a slave girl/in the show she threatens people with violence if they disagree. "Ill burn you alive.") She's just as bad as Cersei

1. She went to cities with no idea how to rule

You make it sound as if she conquered Meereen solely so she could rule. She went to cities to free slaves, and in Meereen she decided to stay and be queen, both to learn how to rule and to prevent the slave masters from enslaving the freed slaves again. 

Dany turned away from them, to gaze out over the city once again. “My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I’ve freed all over again.” She turned back to look at their faces. “I will not march.”

What was she supposed to do? You claim she’s wrong for wanting to rule Meereen when “she has no idea how to rule”. At face value, that’s a valid reason, but it’s not when you look at Daenerys’ situation. She has just freed the slaves in a city that’s economy is entirely dependent on slaves. 

If she leaves, the masters rise up again and enslave those freedmen. You might say she could have appointed someone else to rule. But who? The only people in Meereen that potentially have ruling experience are the Great Masters, who all owned slaves. If she appointed any one of them to rule, they would try to bring slavery back. She could appoint someone from her own court to avoid this, but none of them are equipped to handle ruling a city whose economic foundation has just been abolished.

Daenerys was working with limited options here. Staying and ruling was the best, and most responsible choice to make in her situation. That way, she won’t be leaving anyone untrustworthy or unequipped to rule Meereen. You could say that she’s not equipped to handle Meereen, either, but Daenerys plans to rule Westeros one day. It was smart of her to want to gain some ruling experience before she reaches that point. 

Also, Daenerys does have a pretty good idea of how to rule. She tries to rebuild Meereen’s economy, without slavery, and starts by creating irrigation systems, planting crops, and trading. She understands that the city must have a source of income, and an idea on how to establish that source of income. And she does all of these while having never received any formal training in how to rule.

“Not a hole. A ditch, to bring water from the river to the fields. We mean to plant beans. The beanfields must have water.”

Ser Barristan remained. “Our stores are ample for the moment,” he reminded her, “and Your Grace has planted beans and grapes and wheat. Your Dothraki have harried the slavers from the hills and struck the shackles from their slaves. They are planting too, and will be bringing their crops to Meereen to market. And you will have the friendship of Lhazar.”

2. Left those cities in poverty and fear of her and what she might do next

Oh yes, of course. Because Daenerys made the decision that she needed a vacation from all the drama unfolding in Meereen, jumped onto Drogon’s back, and went on an cruise to the Bahamas.

No, Daenerys made a move to protect Drogon and the people in the fighting pit. 

“Kill it,” Hizdahr zo Loraq shouted to the other spearmen. “Kill the beast!”

The spearmen were running too. Some were rushing toward the dragon, spears in hand. Others were rushing away, throwing down their weapons as they fled. The hero was jerking on the sand, the bright blood pouring from the ragged stump on his shoulder. […] As the other spears closed in, the dragon spat fire, bathing two men in black flame. His tail lashed sideways and caught the pitmaster creeping up beside him, breaking him in two. Another attacker stabbed at his eyes until the dragon caught him in his jaws and tore his belly out. 

Drogon’s presence in the dragonpit was causing pandemonium and violence. Some were trying to hurt him, and naturally, Drogon fought back. Do you honestly think this situation would have been diffused had Daenerys not flown away with Drogon? More people would have tried to kill him and Drogon would have retaliated, leading to more casualties. 

Meereen is not in poverty because Daenerys is a bad ruler. Meereen is in poverty because its economic foundation, slavery, has been abolished. When the ruler leaves with the city in such a precarious state, fear and chaos is natural. If you want to fault Daenerys for this “poverty and fear”, then you’d have to fault her abolishing of slavery in Meereen. And I would never fault anyone for abolishing a system that treats human beings as objects, Meereen, where slave soldiers are quite literally cheaper, and therfore seen of as having less value, than their own swords. Any economy that’s based on such an institution is disgusting and should be changed.

3. Yet she claims to be a good queen

When has Daenerys ever claimed to be a good queen? If anything, she starts thinking worse and worse of herself.

That morning she summoned her captains and commanders to the garden, rather than descending to the audience chamber. “Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice. But all I have brought to Slaver’s Bay is death and ruin. I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on.”

“You have brought freedom as well,” Missandei pointed out.

“Freedom to starve?” asked Dany sharply. “Freedom to die? Am I a dragon, or a harpy?” Am I mad? Do I have the taint?

If I look back, I am doomed. Dany told herself… but how could she not look back? I should have seen it coming. Was I so blind, or did I close my eyes willfully, so I would not have to see the price of power?

Bless me, Dany thought bitterly. Your city is gone to ash and bone, your people are dying all around you. I have no shelter for you, no medicine, no hope. Only stale bread and wormy meat, hard cheese, a little milk. Bless me, bless me.

4. In the books she tortured a slave girl

I don’t know what anti-Dany thread you’ve been reading instead of the books that you supposedly read, but I’m here to tell you the truth: It was not a slave girl she tortured. A soldier was murdered in a wineshop, and the suspects were the wineseller and his daughters. Naturally, Daenerys has them interrogated.

At first, she orders them questioned sweetly, but upon hearing that another murder has occurred, she orders them questioned sharply. Daenerys is running an investigation for murder(s), not randomly torturing a girl. There is a thing called context that antis are spectacular at forgetting.

Torture for information, especially during a murder investigation, is not considered an evil act in medieval society. The antis calling her “evil” or “mad” for this are hypocrites, considering no other character seems to be under such intense criticism for torturing for information. Even Jon has people tortured; why is he not suspected of being “a villain” because of it?

5. In the show she threatens people with violence if they disagree. “Ill burn you alive.”

“She threatens people with violence if they disagree”? Don’t you mean “she threatens people with violence if they’re her enemies”? Which is, you know, pretty natural in a medieval setting?

But ok, I’ll bite. Give me an instance that Daenerys threatens people with violence if they disagree with her and I’ll gladly discuss it.

6. She’s just as bad as Cersei

You mean Cersei Lannister? Cersei “I only love my brother because I see him as a reflection of me” Lannister? Cersei “it’s so unfair that I’m treated differently because I’m a woman so every other woman deserves to be mistreated” Lannister? Cersei “Hey Sansa the best way to deal with being married to Joffrey is to sit still and take it” Lannister? Cersei “Joff was strong, Tommen must be more like him but I punish Tommen if he shows any signs of resisting me” Lannister? Cersei “I raped Taena Merryweather” Lannister? Cersei “I had a girl less than a year old killed because she was Robert’s daughter by a prostitute” Lannister?

I have only one thing to say.

Lol.