#s11 is the most important series of them all

[growingnerves]

I saw the teaser and it got me thinking…

It’s not some mysterious happenstance that lead to Melissa McBride appearing on our screens again. She’s still around in TWDU because she is responsible for so many of the most iconic, rewatchable and deeply engaging moments and that isn’t easily forgotten among fans. We will always want her here so we can continue the story with Caryl as a united pair. And much as I share in the enthusiasm over how powerful her presence is, that alone isn’t enough! The quality of their story together still matters to us. The generic “thrills” aren’t working. I’m sure Melissa wants quality material to dive into as much as the fans do. She considers us in a way that others working on this spin-off will not. However, the fans will always be an objectively important aspect to the show’s ongoing success or failure. After all, who’s going to be watching?

It can be hard to believe our voices are being heard after countless disappointments, cruel shipbaity manipulations and needless retconning; it has often felt like we haven’t been valued. But the more we speak up about our expectations, the greater chance we have of getting them met. I don’t want past missteps to discourage us to the point of accepting something merely “inoffensive.” Let’s think of what this spin-off could be!

Nothing in those promos is engaging me on a meaningful level and this far along into a story, that shouldn’t be a difficult task. We need to see major changes going forward, especially with the writing. The title alone is unacceptable, and even if I could accept it (which I can’t!), “acceptable” isn’t enough. Once whatever future we get for Carol and Daryl is on our screens, it can’t be undone. Once it’s been decided, we will have to live with it forever. So now is the time to have the highest of expectations and demands. Nothing is set in stone yet! Now is a better time than any to pour our energy into advocating for what we want to see. I’d rather be criticizing the show now rather than once it’s been irreversibly ruined by the current showrunner (Zabel). We know we are going to see Caryl together again, that is our only guarantee atp. Which version of the spin-off we get, could still change, especially going into S3! We don’t have to settle for a lesser version of what should be OUR show.

Our dedication should be rewarded with something to look forward to, not something that causes dread. The dread of further disappointment is what drove viewers away. It burned me out to the point I never finished watching S11 of TWD. I didn’t tune in for the initial season of the spin-off because omitting Carol was the most nonsense decision imaginable. The only thing that would make me consider returning is a storyline worth my time. Because boy do I get invested when I give a damn. Imagine getting a story with actual stakes and payoff. Something a little more captivating than watching two friends suffering through seasons more of the apocalypse.

The purpose of reuniting these two is to profit on their unmatched bond and chemistry. They are capable of anything when they are together and taking their relationship to the next level would open up so many new possibilities storywise. Give us something fresh tonally. Let the relationship develop naturally into something romantic as it always should have been. That’s what’s going to get people talking and clamoring for more. That’s what’s going to get word to reach those who left. Seeing a middle aged couple headlining a series is groundbreaking tv and that representation alone could bring in loads of new eyes and reinvigorate online discussion.

What show are they trying to sell me based on the brief window into S2 with tonight’s promos? Caryl’s relationship isn’t the centerpiece here. What I saw was an attempt to catch my attention with repetitive action sequences. There’s nothing original about shootouts and car crashes and distractingly bad looking CGI blood and verbal cliches. Carol interacted with Daryl’s props? That’s the best you can give me? The unique draw this show has, that makes the appeal one of a kind, is Carol and Daryl played by Melissa and Norman. That’s an absolute narrative goldmine and something no other show on tv can claim. I’m echoing so many other fans when I say this. We are able to see the potential for greatness. An emotionally intimate slow burn relationship built over many years will always have within it a vast, complex narrative to explore that new characters cannot bring to the table. AMC has a rare gift in their hands. Continued success of the franchise hinges on the network making the right call when it comes to this duo. That’s where the attention should go. That’s the tease I was looking for tonight. That’s the upcoming payoff that would win back my trust and viewership. I want to see something I can feel passionate about again. We understand these characters aren’t learning to navigate the world without each other. They are fighting to stay alive so that they can be together again and realize their relationship in a way that is new. Caryl’s history runs deep and they couldn’t give us a single emotional beat to grasp onto in the promo- that’s how I’m feeling right now.

Side note cause I can’t help myself but I know I’m not the only one who noticed that Melissa McBride is a total smokeshow in that teaser. It’s not an obscure observation by any means haha. She looked goddamn amazing and badass and well, fucking hot 🥵 It is an undeniable privilege to see this woman on our screens again.

[my-mt-heart]

It’s understandable why most fans weren’t receptive to the fight in Find Me, but I actually think it’s important for Caryl to call each other out on their deepest insecurities. Carol runs because she thinks she’s broken. Daryl has a toxic hero complex, measuring his worth through what he can do for others, particularly who he can save. They’re both nuanced, not perfect, and that’s what makes their journey one to root for.

The only issue I take with this scene is it never really pays off. In theory, a major shakeup in Daryl’s and Carol’s longstanding relationship should resolve itself in a major way, changing them for the better. We can debate whether their last scene in the finale was their canon moment, or if canon happened offscreen during the time jump, or if they still have a ways to go. That in itself is ridiculous though. Caryl’s journey throughout the whole series asks the age old question: “will they or won’t they” and if we’re really honoring that trope, then there should be a definitive answer by the end, spinoff or no spinoff. 

To be fair, S11 did kind of show Daryl and Carol working through their insecurities, on their own and naturally through subtext. For example, Carol’s adventure with Lance in What’s Been Lost reassures her she isn’t going to lose Daryl. He’ll do whatever it takes to get back to her just like she’d do for him. 

And Daryl’s fun time with the Reapers helps him finally understand that he can’t save everyone and some people like Leah are not worth saving. Others like Connie, who I think parallels Rick in some ways, can save herself. The weight of the world is not on his shoulders. 

It’s good that Caryl work things out for themselves and they aren’t co-dependent. At the same time, their insecurities have always been a huge road block for them as a couple, so it stands to reason they have to work things out as a couple too. 

Daryl and Carol don’t need words. We know that. But to paraphrase Melissa, words between them are still nice. It would go a long way for the characters and the audience if Daryl openly tells Carol she’ll never lose him no matter what because he sees and loves all of her, the whole person that she is. Likewise if Carol tells Daryl he never needed to win her heart because he already had it. 

There were several strong jumping off points for Daryl and Carol to talk about things they’ve been holding back like Daryl wishing he could’ve saved Sophia for Carol, Carol confessing what happened at the grove, Daryl explaining why he ended up with Leah—all of which could’ve led into a deeper conversation about their feelings for each other, but alas. 

Time jump or not, without seeing the beats play out right in front of me, I’m left wondering if Daryl and Carol are still holding onto their trauma and I hate it. I can only hope this is somehow rectified if their story continues. But I’m not going to lie, it seems like a daunting task. 

[twdmusicboxmystery]

More Theories About Leah and the Reapers

@wdway:

I just wanted to give some thoughts about Leah and the Reapers. I think there's a good possibility that you're right, @galadrieljones, in that Leah might not have been with the Reapers during the time in which they started following Maggie.

The thing that I kind of come to notice was that even though in s10 the writers built up the mystery of this group of people hunting Maggie and then in s11 they backed away from that storyline.

The audience for the most part was led down the path of the Reapers taking over the Maggie's community because it was so plentiful in goods. They use the name Reapers to help illusion that this group of people reaped from the innocent communities and once they use their resources up they moved on to the next. I think they dangled the carrot of truth in s10 and then decided to pull it away so that it would come as a surprise later on that the Reapers were in fact a division or probably Mercenaries for the CRM.

When everyone was killed except for Leah and she was somewhat of a lost soldier. I think she could not go back to whoever was the connection between the Mercenaries/the Reapers and the CRM because of the failed mission. Then came Lance who, by enlisting Leah's services to kill Maggie, had no idea he was also giving Leah the very person she had no clue where to look for her.

Leah's hate for Maggie was not only because of her outsmarting Leah's family of Mercenaries but that Daryl given his loyalty to Maggie over Leah. My point being I think that storyline was more layered than what they wanted the audience in s11.

I'm going to kind of skip over to something else I was thinking about today and that was the kidnapping of Herschel. We have discussed it several times in the past that it will be part of the CRM wanting to take Maggie's son.

I think it may lead into a bigger connection between what we're going to see in Fear with Morgan and Madison searching out the people who kidnapped Morgan's daughter and the other children that they come across. I'm not saying anything new with that statement.

What I was thinking about earlier today was wondering what they do with these children. I kind of wonder if they keep them for many reasons that there grow into a group of people that depend on the CRM further livelihood that they are tested and then placed in different jobs, different lifestyles with some being more educated than others some becoming the superior and others the worker bees type of thing.

The one thing that really came to mind that was brought up in season 11 in one episode and then no more was said about it and it was so very strange and seemingly without real purpose because it did not really move the plot along it was just a piece of information I think to be used later on.

When Daryl and Rosita went on their mission to get the money for Sebastian and when Sebastian was pretty well threatening them with the children Sebastian mentioned to Daryl that RJ was a gifted student. What possible difference could that make.

I don't think that made Daryl want to protect RJ more simply because he was a smart kid but it was just a strange little piece of information about a child that might possibly give a little insight to why they choose different children. Just another dangling thread from the series I thought I would share.

@galadrieljones:

First, per your thoughts on Leah and the Reapers. I totally agree!! Yes yes yes! I always thought it was important how the Reapers did not call themselves the Reapers. Cole was the first one to use that term in HSH and it’s not commonly used in the show at all.

Idk how it got into the fan psychology. I think a lot of promotional stuff called them “the reapers,” like on TTD, but Pope refers to his group as The Chosen Ones. What you said about the build up to the Reapers being a sort of red herring and how they use the name to swindle us into thinking they’re sort of like just another version of the Wolves is smart. Like in the Grady arc, they use so much subterfuge and misdirection.

They distract us with the name The Reapers and the masks, so that a lot of ppl just forget about all the US military stuff, and the fact they were a confirmed mercenary company who did dirty work for the US government, and who Pope outright states were hired to do something during “The Fall.”

It’s also hard to tell in Rendition what Pope’s motivations are. He seems angry with politicians, and it seems like maybe after they all escaped the napalm in whatever city they were in, that’s when they started up with the Chosen Ones cult thing, went AWOL and got picked up by the CRM.

Daryl does ask Leah why Pope cares so much about killing Maggie since they already got her stuff, but Leah can’t give him a good answer. Pope refers to Maggie as his “enemy.” It’s impossible to tell whether he’s just psychotic or if he has actually been hired to assassinate her, perhaps based on her connection to Isobel and/or Georgie.

Either way, sort of like with the Grady faction, the Reapers are still completely unexplored territory, which is odd considering that one of them had a relationship with Daryl for almost a year.

[lola-andheruniverse]

I agree with all your points! Uh, there's so much to address about the Find Me fight! I think Daryl needs to tell Carol how betrayed he felt in that moment because she said to him 'I'm still here' when they were putting traps together at the Tower and, next, tried to kill herself by leading the horde to the cliff. She doesn't know Lydia told him what happened (neither did us at the time, we never saw it, only had confirmation on S11). So, to me, when she says 'I don't need a hero, I don't need a martyr, I just need a friend' and he answers 'Friends don't have the same conversation over and over again', yes, it's about his hero complex, but it's also about him thinking 'well, shit, you keep trying to run/distance/kill yourself time after time, even when you say you're staying with me, how can I trust that you're not bullshiting me with this 'friend' talk? We're not friends, not really, if you were my friend, you wouldn't do these things to me. If you were my friend you would consider my side and see that I love you but I can't don't this anymore where you're my first priority and I'm not yours.'

That would tie nicely with they talking about how he left by the end of the main series and she stayed behind. He left to 'see what's out there' and search for Richonne, again, putting himself in the hero position. But Carol once again failed to prioritize their bond, to the point of completely denial, thinking it would be good for them to be apart. He told her he loved her and she (adorably) giggled. Why would he think she returns his feelings in any way? Going all the way to France may be proof enough, but I think they need to really talk about their insecurities and establish that they are the most important person to one another. Bonus points if he tells her that it hurt to see her married to Zeke + Carol telling him that it hurt to find his note for Leah, even if they both understood the reasons behind both decisions.

Besides that (🤣🤣) I need/hope

1. a 'you look ridiculous' callback because Daryl does look ridiculous with his suspenders;

2. Laurent cockblocking caryl's reunion like Rick did at Terminus! Imagine the kid inserting himself in the middle of the hug and going like 'Oh, hello, lady Carol. My name is Laurent, I'm Daryl's friend. Nice to make your acquaintance'.;

3. a romantic stroll through the Louvre;

4. Carol finding some time to fix Daryl's vest;

5. Losang dying a miserable death.

TBOC Hopes and Wild Speculation

*CONTAINS REFERENCES TO 201 AND FILMING SPOILERS*

I'm so grateful to see everyone so excited after the Tribeca premiere, including seeing some old names arise from their fandom slumber. Welcome back!

Melissa said that they took some core issues that were unresolved from the main series and built on those. These are core issues I hope they address so Carol can heal.

Sophia - Carol needs to move out of the denial phase of grief and properly mourn her daughter. There are strong indications in 201 that this will be addressed.

The Banishment - I firmly believe that Rick telling Carol no one would want her around if they knew who she really was is what's underpinning her wanting to run away constantly. Carol doesn't know that Daryl knows about Karen and David and he defended her when Rick exiled her. I hope that will be addressed.

Lizzie and Mika - This was an extremely traumatic experience for Carol, and she kept her promise to Tyreese never to talk about it. I hope something happens to help her process that grief and affirm that she made the right decision in that situation, even though it was gut wrenching.

Find Me Fight - I hope they talk about that fight and everything that was fueling it, including Daryl's savior complex that's caused him so much trouble. It's the reason he ended up in France and also why he missed the boat home. (Daryl would have died in Newfoundland and Carol never would have found him, so narratively it's a good thing he stayed, but that's not the point I'm trying to make.)

Wild Speculation/Hopes

Sylvie and Emile's puppy love will stir something in Caryl.

Losang will be revealed to be as evil as Genet.

Codron will adopt Laurent at the end of the season. (Codron and Laurent were present when they filmed Daryl and Carol going down the tunnel to Spain. I guess this would mean Isabelle is dead or gravely injured, but I just want my boy Codron to get a happy ending.)

Please reblog or comment with your own hopes and wild speculations! No judgment, have fun!

[queenlnss-a]

WEAPONLESS.      I love how this series of dw doesn’t take away from the characters of colour. they’re still important, and they’re especially important when the episode plot revolves around them. of course it’s still a show about the doctor, but her companions are important, too, and you can tell that it means a lot to them that they respect that because they’ve brought in writers that are of the same race as the characters so that they can actually write it accurately. I love this series so much  ????

[bigfieldstraveler]

Hey guys. That's Alex. Or "weeds-or-wildflowers". Or "insider in orbit" . As some of you know me or remember from twitter or deartv forum.

I just wanted to say i needed to step back from walking dead series and fandom completely because it crushed me bad all recent months were too much misery to add to my already progressive depression and mental health ruined by war in my country. Please tell those like Yana or Amal or Klarka or Valentina or Dying light or anyone from deartv or twitter friends who might be worried that im ok physically and i just deleted twitter and logged out everywhere because being caryler in this fandom became unbearable.

I thought it's gonna be less painful after some time but no. Im not angry or furious or desperated anymore but i think it turned into infinite sadness and i don't think I'll ever overcome this whole "experience" that happened with caryl spinoff with something else. And i don't think ill gonna be as invested ever with anything else.

As to sdcc...i got some thoughts after lurking here and watching whole panel.

Couldn't miss seeing Melissa and as result watched whole thing.

Whole speculating on my part coming from my limited knowledge about some events behind the scenes and official statements or what was said.

:

- i was happy to see Melissa again. She looked healthy and that's what important. I hope she's as happy as possible in her personal life beyond what happened with spinoff and amc

- she was so sad but im not sure and don't think there's only one reason but mix of things. She was overwhelmed by show ending but at same time it seemed she was uncomfortable.

- yeah during some moments Norman reached to her she seemed uncomfy but i could interpret wrongly.

- but also seemed like she was warming up to him during other moments. So generally mcreedus got me in mixed feelings. I don't feel like im good character judge when it comes to people's body language and actions especially with someone like Norman and Melissa. But impression i got that he either tried to be "seen" as good supportive friend or he really felt guilty and needy for Melissa's support or both. So maybe Melissa's underwhelmed replies to him was her trying to keep distance because she didn't know how sincere he was. As many of us.

- that leads me to speculation that 80% of rumours were truth.

I speculate that's what happened:

1. After fallout of Daryl and Carol bonus episodes especially Carol one, amc decided to change spinoff course and form. And they also started to think about options.

2. Kang " got called to the carpet" by amc and she made quick and sketchy changes into s11 script or at least A part removing some daleah, possible Carol/Leah and caryl interactions out of the picture. Leaving reapers arc almost fully to drive plot.

3.i think in the end of the year caryl spinoff still supposed to happen and Kang was still showrunner. Last time Norman was on noticeable liking spree and public caryl support he posted on December 31st caryl tweet. I believe it was still happening. Then something happened which i believe was his sheldue getting filled and his fiance getting hers that created conflict for Norman to get everything he planned fulfilled. That's where i believe first talks about time/location changes started.

4. Talking about richonne and Rick movies i believe in February Gimple and Kang already worked on bringing them back not through movies but other type of project. Kang who didn't seem to talk about richonne/Michonne since her leaving eventually made huge thread on twitter about richonne even reaching to SG to promote couple in most desirable way for richonne fans possible (SG is much known and opened richonne fanboy)

5. I believe when Andrew visited set in the end of February that's when things became more concrete for richonne and neggie spinoff and less concrete for caryl and that's when sheldue issues became solid problem as Norman was bringing it to amc knowledge he can't do spinoff in that time on that place because he needs to be with his family in France.

6.that's when i believe amc started to think about options without Carol as new caryl spinoff format was already about driving plot to "endgame" point which is Rick reuniting with everyone.

7. I think mcreedus couldn't solve issue and that made their relationship on set more tense that led to fight on set which i believe wasn't as dramatic as some think but it pushed Melissa to step back from spinoff, maybe phrase that she needs a break was said by her as she got tired from all difficulties and misfortunes that came to them and fight with Norman only pushed her to final decision.

8. Richonne fan who i wont name but i guess many know who that was. Who originally found out about caryl spinoff cancellation and upcoming richonne spinoff from Nicotero got it from him during Walker Stalker. GN said at that moment already that caryl spinoff was cancelled because Melissa either "got tired" or "needed a break". So grain of truth is there, in that " she needs a break"

- here i don't think she really wanted a break from playing Carol rather than she needed break from drama behind the scenes. By this speculated order of events i don't think Norman stayed as excited as before after February and i don't think he desired things how they happened and don't think he just wanted to kick her out of his orbit.

- i believe he had idea things gonna work out but they didn't and Melissa saying final no was taken personal and touched his ego.

- following reaction from fandom and carylers especially made it only worse. And his sm childish sometimes deranged activity has some proofs of what i wrote happened.

- here please hear me out. Im not justifying his behaviour or anyone else's. Im trying to understand what drove this man actions from things i observed.

- so i think amc sacrificed Melissa/Carol more easily cuz their contracts weren't equal and they didn't want to lose more losing Norman. His spinoff is still under question.

- Norman would be ok without filming his spinoff but just taking money from contract but amc wouldn't. So here why they made this spinoff in certain location with such unsatisfying conditions for them. It still will be better paid than no spinoff.

- as for future idk what in amc plans regarding caryl. By things i saw at sdcc i don't think things are certain in any way. Caryl either gonna get their ending (happy or else) in the main show or Carol supposed to appear somewhere in twdu just to wrap her and caryl story if Norman not straight out lying there. Melissa's skeptical expression is either her knowing caryl story ends on main show (which can be flashforward as i said) or she just skeptical because she doesn't trust Norman and his words anymore and after that happened if there will be possibility to bring caryl back together as their separate show or her cameo she's not certain they won't fool her and fans again. And even if they wouldn't be able to fool her, fans will be gone already or just won't buy any promises and she won't take advantage to promise anything herself anymore because now she knows she doesn't have any voice to keep promise.

- as for richonne spinoff and else i really don't care. Couple years ago i shipped them and cared about characters when they were still on the show. But now? Don't care about AL or Rick. Richonne dynamic is established romantic but is underwhelming for me personally. Not because established but it seems became stale and Kind of very trivial in bad sense as can be with ship under Gimples direction through years. AK was bit better but still doesn't come to me as interested as she was with caryl during season 10. So i really don't know what they are gonna to explore with richonne there.

Neggie is "chewed plate " of mutual hate which doesn't develop characters so i don't see point of their spinoff either.

Sure these fanbases have lots of invested people for making couple seasons but from art and creative point i dont see point of these spinoff existence.

Caryl was only one that kept me and had most sense. Tales has interesting concept and showrunner whom eps on twd i respect but i wont be watching that any longer.

- that said i want to watch last episodes but only to find out that caryl ended up happily ever after. Even if there stupid travels to Europe and dumb side missions in between.

I just don't believe in quality and sincere love from twd creators to keep things realistic and true to characters.

- as someone said caryl belongs to fans

You all guys are amazing passionate people from all corners of the world. Without you there wouldn't be even possibility considered to continue their dynamic.

Gimple never cared much about caryl since season 6 and im not certain about Kang ( really don't know what that woman really thinks and feels regarding them) so caryl never had much chances if there weren't fans imo.

I remember before they introduced Leah, in same month AK implied that caryl can happen only on spinoff but even that under question. So maybe just maybe we really didn't lose in this.

We don't know what these bosses supposed to do with them in spinoff.

When AL left show and movies were announced Gimple couldn't stop talk how he hopes Daryl will meet Rick again. He never talked about Carol in same way as SG didn't care much about her in twdu back then but i can be wrong. He could plan to give caryl space in their spinoff just to develop them into romance and kill her later just before Daryl will find Rick. Or he just didn't see importance of Carick relationship in general. Just thoughts how things could be unfaithful in way we can't imagine but also there could be other misfortunes in way of that spinoff later during production.

- i just want caryl fans to find peace and sort of happiness even if Melissa won't ever appear as Carol in twdu.

You all deserve better. Please don't fight each other and try to forgive other fans who mistreated Melissa, Carol and our fandom for years. Their souls are shallow, fact they get something or are happy because you're unhappy doesn't mean they will be happy as this in some time in future. I don't wish bad to them i think we really need to forgive them and each other and ppl like SG and Norman more even if it's too hard. But i don't believe this twdu ship gonna be good for long sail.

Please stay healthy sane and wish good miracles to happen for everyone of you and our ship ❤️

[gardenerian]

(tw: disordered eating, totally fine if you don't feel comfortable/want to reply)

I love your take on Ian's Coffee & Kind Bar as representation of his attempt at stable decision making. Alongside his body/eating issues throughout the series, I've always pictured Ian as having 4 states of consumption

1) Unstable home situation: whatever food he can get his hands on in whatever amount at the least cost to themselves

2) Manic: overdoing it in all aspects (drugs, drink, activity, food)

3) Depressive: largely unable to consume much, if anything at all

4) Stable home situation: healthy, 'natural' foods, more expensive than they could previously afford (Whole Foods, Kind Bars, tomatoes 🥺)

Eating loads of stale cereal and pizza in s11 is just such a reflection on how unstable he feels in their situation even though he's happily married; he's not happy or secure in their income or living situation (plus the lockdown/pandemic situation). Then as soon as they have a profitable business, plan to move into their new place and start to get on the same page - hitting those stability markers - he starts suggesting they make healthy food decisions again.

Of course I'm sure there'll always be room for a chocolate donut and little treats, but I wonder if he actually would struggle to figure out the right mental/emotional balance for him between indulgence and healthy eating as they only continue to grow in stability together.

anon this is brilliant! and honestly something i really appreciate discussing. 

that first one is so interesting - i think they all kind of live that way, especially early on. they eat when they can, as much as they can… the most calories to fill them up and last them. and ofc i bet they went without as well. so they just ate as food was available, yeah? and i know we kinda hate ian’s “he orders me room service” line but! that was an important thing! ian is looking to get needs met (or… more often than not, what he thinks his needs are) - and here is some level of the security/stability he’s desperately seeking.

i’d only push back on the manic part a little bit. he definitely overdoes it on the substances, he’s self-medicating and out of control. i’m not sure he does overdo it on food. a hallmark of mania is a lack of appetite or interest in food. it’s too heavy, it slows you down. ian gets rail thin in his mania, and he's at the height of thinking his body is all he can offer. which is why (at least to me) it’s such a relief to see him snacking so much as he stabilizes in s7. 

but i absolutely agree on the stability front! he gains that recovery/husband weight in s11 - but he’s also very active and enjoying his body. the consumption changes (the cereal, the whiskey) as he slips a bit…. he uses it as a coping mechanism for sure. and as they get back on track, YEAH! he starts thinking about cooking and planning and taking care of each other. i think it will be a lifelong tell for him and his moods, and something mickey will also be aware of as their marriage progresses. it might be a struggle sometimes! but i would hope that they’ll find the tools to address it together. 

[nonbinarykai]

Ok since two people asked

Why Lloyd is my least favorite ninja and how I rewrite him

Notes:// you know the rodeo by now, long post so it’s going to be under a read more, and I’m not gonna tag this with Lloyd because of the criticisms I have against his character, if you don’t want to hear Lloyd be critiqued then don’t reas the post

Why I don’t like Lloyd

Maybe it’s because I’m a Kai kinnie or maybe it’s because I have a bias agaisnt the younger sibling but Lloyd has never really been a favorite of mine

He was enjoyable in s1 but after that he kinda lost all personality for me and I stopped enjoying him

I think this is mostly for two reasons:

1. His screen time

2. His “character arcs”

I’ll go ahead and knock out his screentime here because it pretty much speaks for himself

Lloyd takes up so much screentime in the show that it’s actually jarring, he’s the character with the most seasons, having s1-2, s4, s8-11, and finally s14 ((the island special)). Which I think makes lloyds writing flaws all the more noticable

A big reason, albeit a bit of a petty one, for why I don’t like him is because he constant hyjacks other characters plots and makes them about him, this happened with Kai in both s4 and s11

Even if he’s not the main focus of a season, he always has a side plot focusing on him like in s3 and s12

The writers need to include Lloyd in other seasons is making it harder for the other main characters to actually have enough screentime to grow and develop on there own

And as a side effect of this, Lloyd gets to become the most important character in every season he is, taking roles from other characters who needed them

My best example is Cole being leader, he was set up and established as leader in the pilots and s1, and he did pretty good in it! Cole being a leader is a interesting concept that I would have loved to see been developed

But after Lloyd grew up they threw that plot point into the trash so they could have the mystical green ninja be leader even though throughout s1-7 he hardly actually talks to the main cast and him being leader doesn’t add any interesting dynamic like cole and kais rivalry despite Kai being a sort of right hand man to Coles leadership.

And in s1-s7 especially everything literally revolves around Lloyd to the point where his existence is more important than everyone else’s, and everyone’s motivations are to protect him.

Again I understand he is important, he’s the green ninja, but you have to let your other characters grow and develop, Lloyd is not the only main character in your show

Like for fuck sakes I don’t need 3 arcs about Lloyd and his dad, can I finally have another Kai season

Lloyds character arcs honestly kinda suck

Im going to be honest with you

Lloyds kinda an ass

The reason I like jay more then Lloyd even though jay has been way more mean spirited then Lloyd throughout the entire series is because you can atleast make the argument that jay doesn’t know when his jokes can hurt. And the show doesn’t portray jay as in the right, he gets what he deserves for some of the meanier things he says.

The same can’t be said about Lloyd

Lloyd says things to the other ninja that is honestly so mean spirited it’s jarring to hear it from him

Best example being when Lloyd told Kai to get over his shit when Kai was grieving in s4

But what makes it so frustrating is that the show always portrays Lloyd like he’s in the right which is why a lot of his character arcs feel flat or uninteresting

The only time this doesn’t apply is in s2 and in s3, in s2 the show paints Lloyd as being unfair to Misako when he RIGHTFULLY gets mad at her for abandoning him, I’ll get back to this later

The second time in s3 is when he’s traveling with Garmadon and having to be taught to balance his powers, which is actually one part of s3 I really liked, it was nice to see these two bond and have Garmadon teach Lloyd something that wu would other wise not teach him. And it’s a real shame the season cut it short AGAIN

The biggest example of the show making Lloyd seem in the right no matter what is in s4, Lloyds whole arc there was to learn how to view things from a different perspective and appreciate the things others have done for him. And this is would work if the show decided to do the same.

Again back to that scene with Lloyd and Kai in s4, the show treats Lloyd as if he’s in the right and it’s never addressed after this. Even though this is supposed to be the beginning of lloyds arc where he’s supposed to learn to view things from a different perspective

This scene would have worked if

1. The show didn’t paint him in the right for this, either by having Lloyd apologize or having the show acknowledged how it might have hurt Kai

2. If the plot Lloyd has remained a side plot instead of taking up the entire focus

Seriously, s4 could have been the ONE season where you can have a Lloyd side plot thats not forced and yet they fucked it up and made it the entire focus of the season thanks a lot.

To quote what I said in my Nya anayalsis awhile back

“I’m not upset that he has a flaw, just that it’s not recognized as one”

Lloyd would work way better as a character if the show just let him have consequences for his actions

Ever since he grew up and got the green ninja role he’s been treated like he can’t do no wrong which is clearly not true

But since we’re already on this topic

Hurting Lloyd doesn’t make him a good character

I feel like Tommy ((and sometimes the fandom)) really misunderstand what the use of suffering for in a story

There atleast 3 reasons writers make there characters suffer

1. To undergo a arc and realize where they have been wrong or to give a character a lot more depth to expand upon

2. If the story is a fallen hero one and the character suffers because of his Huberius

3. If the story is a tragedy

Ninjago is neither a fallen hero story or a tragedy and his pain doesn’t develop him as a character

A lot of writers don’t understand that suffering isn’t what makes a character good, it’s what pushes them to become good, you can’t just throw a character at the wall and expect them to instantly be a well written fleshed out character

A lot of the suffering Lloyd has to endure is mostly for no reason and it’s really mean spirited because it adds nothing to the plot, it’s just there to hurt him

Let’s bring up s11 as an example, Lloyd didn’t HAVE to fight the ice emperor from a writing standpoint, if anything it should have been kais battle because his lose of power and Zane going evil would have been a perfect reflection of s4 and tie it up after it ended kais character a bit open ended

But no let’s have Lloyd do it instead because haha isn’t trauma COOL and HIP

Now to be clear, I’m not saying that all of your stories have to end on a happy ending or anything like that, if your a writer then your allowed to do whatever you want with your personal writing

What I am saying is that ninjago is an actual SHOW made by PROFESSIONAL writers and they can’t understand the concept of a story structure

And the lack of actually addressing his trauma is really bringing down Lloyd as a character

Because it comes to a point where you understand why Lloyd is sometimes mean or distrustful of other people and it’s frustrating because you know that it’s flaws of him that are never going to be fixed because there writers want there trauma baby

How I would rewrite him

I’ve seen a lot of people suggest Lloyd become a villain in a future season and you know what, I sort of agree

But not in the way you think

I feel like it would be way more compelling if Lloyd was a villain but is still a ninja, instead of Lloyd switching sides, the show is switching perspectives

More or less I want Lloyd to be a reflection of the “true” villain, which is how wu ((and subsequently Lloyd)) put small Victories as more important then the ninjas life, passion, and desire, and how there black and white thinking of good and evil ends up to a lot of problems because there’s a lot of grey area there choosing to ignore

I want Lloyd to start of being loyal to wu’s philosophy and the protagonist, for random example let’s say Kai, sudden turn on these ideas in order to look outside the box to find if there truly is a better way to protect people without harming himself

I want Lloyd to be upset over what he thinks is a turn to the dark side when in reality, it would make his motivations make sense and not make his turn to “villainy” be out of character.

And over the course of the season he starts to realize how wus and subsequently his leadership has hurt the others and himself, and have him reflect on if all the pain they suffer through just to clean up wus mistakes is really worth it like wu says, or if there’s a better way like kai says

As for Lloyds actual character himself, I’d like for his flaws to be more noticeable

Have Lloyd be a gifted kid who gets praise when he doesn’t deserve it but still kinda acts like a brat because he’s still mentally like 10

Have him be a control freak who follows the rules way to strictly and is all serious when they have to do missions

Have his idealization of wu be realized and critiqued because honestly wu sucks ass

Would this make his character less like able? Maybe, but then he’d actually have depth and something to improve on

He can still have his s3 and s4 arcs, it’s just now they’re more important because he’s actually learning to be better

AND BEFORE ANYONE SAYS IM PURPOSEFULLY MAKING LLOYD WORSE SO THAT KAI LOOKS BETTER

ILL HAVE YOU KNOW AWHILE BACK I MADE A POST SAYING THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT KAI AND HIS FLAWS SO THERE (/hj /lh)

[addictedtostorytelling]

hello, how is it that we see no big sex scene between Gil and Sara, we have a desperate kiss in 8 years, a kiss of reunion after and one on the roller coaster, in 20 years it is not much! there are plenty of beautiful moments between them "looks, letters... " but a bed to rag it could have been good.

hi, anon!

well, i mean, the thing with csi is that even though the original series did certainly push the envelope in terms of showing some salacious images and introducing its audience to particular fetishes, it seldom depicted full-on sexual intercourse on screen beyond in the familiar "we see the characters undressing and making out and falling into bed, and then the scene fades to black or cuts" primetime way, particularly during its earlier seasons (i.e., s1-s10)*, and particularly with regards to the main characters**.

* during the show’s earlier seasons, it aired at 9pm est, which is still considered “primetime viewing hours.”

** during the earlier primetime seasons of the show, the closest thing there is to sex involving main characters is maybe nick fooling around with kristy hopkins in episode 01x13 "boom," though all we really see there is them lying in bed together, kissing, OR perhaps warrick hooking up with candy the stripper in episode 08x09 "cockroaches," though, again, the most that's shown in that scene is warrick taking off his shirt and kissing candy's neck. only after the s11 timeslot jump is there ever any actual main character sex, and even then there’s only one real example: catherine and vartann in episode 11x03 “blood moon”***, in what is still (compared to cable) a relatively brief and tame scene, interspersed with shots of the murder-of-the-week.

*** thanks to @sassylittlewoman for the reminder. my later-seasons-hating self blanked this one earlier.

even though csi was known for its sometimes risqué crime stories, it's important to remember that at the end of the day it was still a network drama; it wasn't on hbo. it couldn’t feature full nudity or anything legitimately x-rated, and especially not prior to s11.

that so, it was just never in the cards for there to be a big sex scene between grissom and sara, whose on-screen relationship took place entirely during the early primetime seasons.

like.

yes, in theory, tptb could've shown grissom and sara disrobing and falling into bed before a cut, but there was never going to be any actual fucking depicted on screen at 9pm est.

even if back in the day, jorja did occasionally crack jokes about how she needed to start working out so she could be "sex scene ready," if called upon.

that's just not the kind of show csi was back then, and, moreover, it's just not the way the showrunners ever approached gsr as a relationship or grissom and sara as characters. they never wanted to "go there."

it was enough for them to insinuate that grissom and sara were having sex (such as they do in episode 06x24 "way to go," where we see them in bathrobes in their bedroom, in suggested prelude or postlude to intimacy) and occasionally even allow them to talk about doing so (like in episode 07x21 "ending happy").

they wanted to keep things more on the level of inference and innuendo, leaving the details to the imagination.

—and, honestly, i'm personally okay with that choice.

i never needed or wanted to see grissom and sara have sex on screen.

to me, that's what fanfiction is for.

as for the dearth of just good, ol' fashioned kissing scenes, though—that particular production choice i have more of a problem with.

because while csi never was the kind of show that was going to include explicit sex scenes, it was the kind of show that could’ve included regular kisses between its flagship couple, and the same goes DOUBLE for the reboot.

i won’t belabor the point too much, but suffice it to say i’ll fight anthony zuiker and jason tracey in a parking lot over their bogus notion that it’s the paucity of kisses that makes them special rather than the context.

poor is the writer who can’t make a hundredth kiss feel just as special as the first one.

three kisses in twenty-one years is just ludicrous.

anyway.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[fandom-hoarder]

I posted 33,848 times in 2022

1,239 posts created (4%)

32,609 posts reblogged (96%)

Blogs I reblogged the most:

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@cordellwinchesterwalker

@lord-kaira

@durinsbride

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I tagged 20,167 of my posts in 2022

Only 40% of my posts had no tags

#wincest - 1,060 posts

#j2 - 693 posts

#sam n dean - 623 posts

#<3 - 482 posts

#jared padalecki - 449 posts

#samdean - 428 posts

#lol - 410 posts

#to read - 396 posts

#spn fanart - 374 posts

#art - 374 posts

Longest Tag: 124 characters

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My Top Posts in 2022:

#5

Sam and Dean in Heaven

Dean: Time for bed, Sammy

Sam: Dean, this is heaven, we don't need to sleep.

Dean: Sam, I said I would sleep when I'm dead and I meant it.

Sam: Okay, but why do I have to...?

Dean: C'mon, Sammy, you know you're my weighted blanket.

Sam: ...this heaven inhibition loss thing is serious 😳

101 notes - Posted October 11, 2022

#4

Caretaker!Dean in the Bunker

A Hurt/Comfort-ish Wincest Rec List Featuring Baby Brother Sammy and Domestic Winchesters

💜 My Only Home by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Explicit | Words: 12819 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Dean's been gone a while, running wild with a twisted soul and black eyes. When Sam finally brings him back, Dean realizes his little brother hasn't been doing well in his absence, and he has more important things to worry about than what he did as a demon.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, first time in a long time, Post-Episode: s10e03 Soul Survivor, Pre-series and Early Series Flashbacks, Eating Disorders, Thoughts of Self-harm, Pining, Angst, Masturbation, Come Eating, Hurt/Comfort, Bottom Sam, Anal Sex, Felching, Snowballing

My Note: flashbacks to Sam pining for Dean as a teen, but no underage sex with a partner

_

💜 Safe, Sane, and Consentual by TooOldToCare8353

Rating: Explicit | Words: 2808 | Chose Not to Warn

Summary: Fixing the relationship, the Winchester way. Not necessarily the right way to get there, but it works for them.

Additional Tags: BDSM, Breathplay, MOL Dungeon, Dom Dean Winchester, Sub Sam Winchester, Manacles, Orgasm Delay/Denial, Dubious Consent

_

💜 Dean does Not like a sick Sammy... but he loves her all the same. By Magnoliachild

Rating: Mature | Words: 3941 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: They get to town for a hunt, but the day after they get there, Dean notices Sammy napping...face down on a motel table.... in the middle of the afternoon.............. FUCK.

Sammy is sick. Dean doesn't like it when Sammy is sick, but sue him for liking how nice he can be when she is...

Additional Tags: Bathing/Washing, Sick Sam Winchester, Caring Dean Winchester, Fluff, Dean Winchester Takes Care of Sam Winchester, Established Relationship, Alternate Universe - Gender Changes, Always Female Sam Winchester, Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural)

_

💜 lullabies by chiliscale

Rating: Explicit | Words: 970 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam´s staying up late, Dean doesn´t care for that shit.

Additional Tags: Men of Letters Bunker (Supernatural), Dean taking care of Sam, Domestic Fluff

_

💜 Steady by non_tiembo_mala

Rating: Teen+ | Words: 1441 | No Warnings Apply

Summary: Sam has an attack. Dean works him through it.Set somewhere in S11 because I can't stop thinking about strong, beautiful Sammy being all fucked up because of friggin' Lucifer.

Additional Tags: Wincest - Freeform, Nightmares, Anxiety, Panic Attacks, Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Sleepy Cuddles

_

💜 Getting Down And Out by verucasalt123

See the full post

103 notes - Posted August 21, 2022

#3

"The man"

"The other man"

"The [hair color] man"

"The older man"

SAY HIS BROTHER. SAY THE OLDER/YOUNGER BROTHER. OR USE THEIR NAMES FFS. DON'T DO THIS TO MEEEEE

111 notes - Posted March 17, 2022

#2

Wincest Case Fic Recs

I've been on a case fic kick for a month and found some really good stuff, so I thought I'd make a rec list.

There's a mix of who tops/bottoms here, but I thiiiink it leans vers or bottom!Sam.

Summer Film Festival of Death by OldToadWoman

Rating: Explicit | Chapters: 22 | Word Count: 127,707

Summary: Sam's point of view as he and Dean go on a hunt at a Florida movie theater where a person has died at every Saturday matinee for a month. They are short on clues leaving them an excessive amount of time to watch movies and drink booze and there's nothing to distract Sam from his increasingly inappropriate thoughts about his brother.

My Notes: This is the fic that started my case fic spree. It has EVERYTHING: pining, movie dates, awesome location vibes, getting together, a main overarching case, side cases, great OCs that enrich the story without taking the spotlight. I even like what they did with Mary and Cas in this.

*

Suave & Complicated by OldToadWoman  

Rating: Explicit | Chapters: 11 | Word Count: 56,923

Summary: Sam and Dean discover a useful, little, magical artifact. No one is forcing them to do anything. No one is going to die if they don't. They don't even feel a strange compulsion. But… it would be really helpful if they powered up the magical stone… and… all they have to do is kiss.

My Notes: I actually passed by this one a few times because the summary made me think it’d be crackish. But after reading Summer Film Festival of Death, I knew I had to give it a shot. I’m really glad I did!

*

Finding Harmony by road_rhythm

Rating: Teen+ | Chapters: 1 | Word Count: 13,077

Summary: A sense of peace and wellbeing washed over Sam and Dean the moment they passed the town limits. That was how they knew they were in deep shit.

*

The Last Rites and Resurrection of Sam Winchester by iamremy 

Rating: Teen+ | Chapters: 9 | Word Count:  21,031

Summary: An outbreak of violent murder-suicides. Death echoes. A centuries-old djinn. It's a formidable combination on a good day. And on a bad day? Well, on a particularly bad day, it all culminates in Dean burying his brother. Alive.

My Notes: I kind of have a thing for wincest djinn fics. This one has a different spin. <3

*

The Road Rhythm Outro by brokenlittleboy 

Rating: Explicit | Chapters: 16 | Word Count: 50,437

Summary: Set after season three. A routine hunt goes horribly wrong when Dean decides to engineer their plan in a way that will get Sam to deliver the killing shot. After Sam confesses that he wants them to leave the life, Dean is convinced that by letting Sam be hero and save the day, Sam will change his mind. But he doesn't account for a break in a balcony railing and one completely broken little brother. Things go beyond their control and the two of them must settle down in a quiet town in Michigan, but Dean's harboring guilt and Sam is so, so, so lost, and he doesn't understand why Dean avoids him or why their road life has fizzled away. A curtain fic dealing with permanent injury, angst, and various types of trauma, and fluffy domesticity.

My Notes: Be prepared for angst, feels, and a happy ending.

*

The Bennington Triangle by NaughtyPastryChef 

Rating: Teen+ | Chapters: 1 | Word Count: 8,822

Summary: Not long after Sam leaves college behind and starts hunting with his brother again, he finds a series of disappearances in Bennington Vermont going back hundreds of years. It started with just a few and was infrequent but whatever is taking these people and leaving no trace is getting greedier as the years pass. The boys travel to Vermont to look into the case, but Dean isn’t feeling like himself and it’s got Sam concerned.

See the full post

169 notes - Posted February 16, 2022

My #1 post of 2022

Early seasons Sam being like: I need to get away and be my own person. I want to live a safe life where I'm not constantly worried my loved ones are going to die, and if that means leaving my family that's probably for the best, actually.

Mid seasons Sam being like: My relationship with my brother is so fucked up. I keep trying to make us be separate people, but despite all our fighting we keep letting our trauma bond pull us together. We're horrible and we hurt people, why can't we break up right 😭

Late seasons Sam being like: I know we're totally unhealthy and I should want us to be better, but this is Us and I'm Ride or Die, bitch. If I get the opportunity to literally fuse together I'm taking it.

298 notes - Posted July 20, 2022

Get your Tumblr 2022 Year in Review →

[upslapmeal]

Village of the Angels

I can’t believe I’m whole day late to the most fun I’ve had with this show since series 9, What Have I Become.

oh noo they’ve included the bit about the unborn child in the recap

meaning it’s important

and I’ve seen….theories…

so Claire’s possessed by an angel?

ooh so this is the Maxine Alderton one

I enjoyed Diodati so I’ve got high hopes!

“you’re going to put them together aren’t you” Dan learns fast

the old graveyard lady is going to be Peggy isn’t she

“your door was open” “it most certainly wasn’t” “it was once I opened it”

13 running up those stairs with so much energy and so little speed lmao

super urgent running...one single step at a time

Claire…is? a weeping angel??

at this point do Dan and Yaz know what the angels do, or do they just know not to blink

also there’s two of you! take turns blinking!!

hey there Neil Inbetweeners

so two village vanishings 66 years apart…so I’m guessing all the older people in the village in 1967 moved there.. on purpose?

to the Spooky Disappearance Village?

or lots of them are people who were sent back

does everyone who gets sent back stay in the village? like are more of the old people in 1967 actually young people sent back in time or is it just Peggy (if I’m right about her)?

guessing Dan and Yaz are in 1901

the Doc must have said about angels sending you back in time and I just can’t remember...

love that Dan is essentially now 100% Yaz’s companion and not the Doctor's

oof that cliff off to the universe was unexpected and effective

the Doctor’s psychic powers baybee

at least she’s being polite about a bit of mind invasion

angels working for the division??

I guess the Doctor hasn’t been to subtle in trying to find out about the division if this angel knows about it

heyo it’s bling crystals shoulder pad sister

honestly I’m so into this story I’d completely forgotten the siBlings were even a threat to keep track of

Bel :(

reverse the polarity of the neutron flow!

eyoo I was right about Peggy

so do we know if there was a reason the angels emptied the town in 1901 as well?

like we know why they’re in 1967 and presumably they’re going to send everyone back in time as a reward but 1901?

also what happened with that 1901 angel

like did it just decide to leave them alone?

oh there we go they’re witnesses

that realisation that the angel hasn’t moved on purpose...man.....

Doctor don’t antagonise the angel

YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE MADE A DEAL WITH A WEEPING ANGEL DOC

I’m guessing that the in-universe reason for why the division is only coming after the Doctor now is because she knows it exists and is probing around

WHAT

YOU CAN’T END LIKE THAT

WHAT A TRANSITION THOUGH

WHATT?????

AND NOW THE THEME WITHOUT THE DRUMS?

CREDIT SCENE???

GO GET YA GIRL VINDER

OH MAN

MY BRAIN IS FULL EVERY EP JUST HAS SO MUCH BUT I’M HAVING THE BEST TIME!! also that trailer? Kate??! THREE YEARS???? HOW ARE THERE ONLY TWO EPS LEFT!!

lmao it’s so wild to me that s11 didn’t even mention the timelords and there were no returning monsters to make it ~accessible to new fans~ and now Chibbs has just said screw it and is throwing absolutely everything he has at every single ep... like I’m glad s11 and s12 weren’t quite this intense but it just feels like a totally different writer.

[boys-night]

Mickey and Ian - communication, sex, and relationship styles, post 11x07

Here’s my take on how Ian and Mickey relate to sexuality and relationship styles, thinking mainly about 11x07, but also looking more broadly at the series and including HoS. If you’re not interested in incorporating 11x07 in your version of canon, ignore this! I enjoyed 11x07 but I understand people have different ways of seeing Ian and Mickey’s relationship. I’m also doing the classic meta thing of taking seriously exaggerated/comic/contradictory elements in the show because that’s how I roll. 

Super long post under cut. 

I’ve been reading Sexuality: A Graphic Guide by Meg-John Barker and Jules Scheele which is where a lot of the following ideas and terminology come from. I’ve also been looking at Meg-John Barker’s free relationship zine on their website rewritingtherules.com. I highly recommend their work, including the podcast they have with Justin Hancock, The Meg-John and Justin podcast (although MJ has left now and it’s called Culture, Sex, Relationships, but you can check out the backlog!) 

They think about sex and relationship styles using various models including monogamy/polyamory, allosexuality/asexuality, romance/aromance etc. They look at these different facets of sexuality/relationship styles as complicated continua rather than binaries which shift over time. They also write about sexuality on an action/identity spectrum, communication strategies around relationships styles, and the windows into relationships. Here, I’m looking at all of these things thinking about Ian and Mickey’s relationship and as individuals within the relationship. 

The monogamy/polyamory continuum

I’ve seen a bit of debate about how to label Mickey and Ian’s relationship on the monogamy/polyamory spectrum and I think it’s a pretty complex question especially considering those labels mean different things to different people and that relationships shift a lot over time. While labels like these can be useful, they can also be rigid and restrictive in their own ways. 

Some terms that come close-ish to what they say they’ve decided in 11x07 are monoamorous and polysexual, considering they aren’t at all interested in romantic connections outside of each other but are up for sex (in a broad sense) with other people. But these terms don’t account for the agreement that they’re only exploring sex with other people when they’re together. 

As people have pointed out, some of the boundary setting around exactly how they’re involving other people in the relationship is left off-screen, and also they’re not necessarily going to form identities around how they act in one episode. I’ve also seen people suggest reading their relationship style as monagamish and/or that what they do with other people is part of kink/play. I think these make sense in different ways and that in 11x07 Ian and Mickey definitely focus more on what they do (action) rather than who they are (identity) in regards to monogamy/polyamory. 

In 11x01, Ian’s focus is more on identity. He sets up a binary choice between being monagamous or not in their relationship. 11x07 indicates they’ve moved through off-screen discussion into a much more personalised arrangement with more focus on actions allowing for flexibility over time. In 11x07, we see them agree on rules: sex in a broad sense is allowed outside of the primary partnership, love isn’t. They keep negotiations ongoing (e.g. in the bedroom, in the furniture store), and there is an indication that these rules could change over time. 

I’d love to read/explore more about the ways in which this approach has changed over the course of the whole show. At the start of their relationship, definitely prior to s4, they have much more implicit rules about who they can have sex with, and those implicit rules become problematic in s5, when they realise they’re not completely on the same page regarding them. They bring up clashing ideas around the rules when Mickey’s leaving prison in s10 too. In s11, their relationship becomes more intentional, with these rules stated aloud rather than assumed. 

The action/identity continuum in regards to gay sexuality 

On a slight tangent, I think there’s a comparison to be made here to how they relate to sexuality (specifically gender of attraction) and the idea of gay identity, which seems to develop in the other direction. For Mickey especially, for a long time having sex with men was something he did rather than something he was, and that’s gradually somewhat shifted over the course of the show. There’s so much more that can be explored here, for instance, about how the action-based approach is much more acceptable within the hyper-masculine environment he was raised. Terry also approaches it this way when talking about prison sex, for example. According to this very oppressive social script, having sex with men in certain circumstances can be OK but claiming that as part of who you are is absolutely not. 

But I also want to stress, I don’t think either approach to gay sexuality, looking at it through actions or through identity, is inherently better or worse. These different lenses on sexuality also intersect with class and levels of education. As explored in Sexuality: A Graphic Guide, the identity approach is also relatively a very modern way of seeing sexuality (late 20th century). Gender of attraction is also only one facet of sexuality (which includes amount of sex you want, type of sex, sexual roles etc.) but its now often regarded as the only or most important facet of sexuality. The identity-based approach is much more acceptable within the more aspirational/middle class settings they interact with in s10 and s11. In these seasons, Mickey and to a lesser extent Ian aren’t completely willing to accept it wholesale. I like how, for example, even well after “coming out”, Mickey often still approaches sexuality through actions rather than identity, e.g. his response to the woman at the flower shop asking if he’s a homosexual: “He is, I just like having another man’s dick up my ass.”

However, I also think it’s cool/interesting how Ian and Mickey both move towards and embrace various parts of mainstream gay identity in s11 too, and a large part of that involves combatting the sexism, femmephobia, and hypermasculinity with which they were raised, e.g. of course, singing and dancing to Lady Gaga and Ariana Grande in the bathroom.  

You could also look at the different ideas about the origins of their gay sexuality in HoS through this lens. Mickey goes for a psychological/behavioural approach (based in like early 20th century sexological theories); Ian goes for a born-this-way, biological/genetic approach (popularised in the 1980s as part of gay pride movements). 

Mickey’s approach is very old school (definitely a way of thinking that reflects his upbringing), which assumes straight is the norm from which gay deviates, to do with Freudian theory/the idea of homosexuality as pathology. He doesn’t, for example, seek to use the same model (Fiona’s bad relationship history) to explain why Lip is straight. Ian’s approach (”not because I was born this way?”) reflects his investment in the intractability of sexuality related to his strict opposition to conversion therapy models and the idea of being gay as a choice. It also reflects the way he reacts negatively/disbelievingly to Debbie’s more flexible sexuality (in s8?). While obviously it’s fucked up/impossible to force people to change their sexuality and it’s perfectly reasonable for him to define the origins of his own sexuality however he wants, this approach risks excluding more fluid experiences of sexuality. 

Again, Mickey’s approach is more behavioural/action oriented and Ian’s is more identity oriented. They both seem pretty willing to shift their ideas around this though (especially Mickey, who potentially is just regurgitating old stuff he’s heard without thinking). The concluding thought is that Ian is gay because he likes Mickey’s d, lol. 

Individual differences on sex and relationship continua

I really like the detail that Ian doesn't want to have sex and be friends with anyone else aside from Mickey. In 11x07, he doesn't want to make friends with the guys in the locker room although he's down for repeat sexual experiences which suggests he thinks he forms romantic attachment through a combination of both sex and friendship. It seems like it's important to him in his negotiation with Mickey that they don't form romantic attachments outside of their own relationship.

This relates back to the 87% thing in HoS where Ian says he tends to get at least slightly attached to everyone he has sex with and Mickey has 87% of his heart. Mickey doesn’t like the 87% thing at all but I reckon it outlines a really interesting difference between the two characters in regards to relationship styles. It indicates that Ian is comfortable with a slightly less mononormative way of doing nurturance/care than Mickey, while Mickey seems to initiate more of the polysexuality than Ian in 11x07. (Although of course, we don’t see how Ian would react if Mickey were to tell him he’s got 87% of his heart! -- but this is a very difficult to imagine scenario).

Sex is a big part of their relationship for both of them. Both Ian and Mickey seem pretty allosexual (e.g. they feel sexual attraction for other people generally), but Mickey is possibly even more so than Ian. Mickey also maybe falls on the aromantic/grayromantic spectrum (once again, the labels can be really useful but I don’t want to be too prescriptive/rigid). Ian seems to be more alloromantic, with a capacity to experience romantic attraction to a whole bunch of people. For him, sex and romance seem to be more interconnected in all cases although he can definitely separate the two (especially when thinking about transactional sex etc).

But I think it's more complex than that. For instance, Mickey reserves certain sexual acts for just between him and Ian and its clear that they have both intimacy and exploration in their sex life. From the outset, Ian and Mickey’s relationship involves exploration and excitement with sex, and provides a freedom to explore their sexualities in regards to sexual roles and kink. It’s clear that Mickey values the safe space Ian specifically gives him in this regard from very early on in their relationship. There’s a parallel here with the bathroom Gaga/Grande scene where Ian’s instinct isn’t to tease or make fun of Mickey but support him embracing more stereotypical gay behaviours and/or more fluid gender roles to the ones he’s grown up with outside of sex too.

Also it might be useful to complicate the idea of romance itself which is a really difficult idea to pin down and which seems to mean different things for both of them. I love the stress on friendship in 11x07. Friendship and also family connection play such key parts in their relationship with one another and the way in which they are attached, arguably even more so than traditional models romance. Both HoS and the Hopper painting discussion are interesting to think about in regards to the ways Ian and Mickey think about the concept of romance differently and the ways it intersects with or differs from their ideas around friendship/family. I like how Mickey’s willing to see getting a coffee together as romantic in a positive way for instance after Ian explains that it’s about togetherness in hard times. While maybe Mickey sees Ian’s suggestion of having a bath together as awkward/weird because he views it more as trying to live up to a social script of what is “romantic”.

Communication strategies around relationship styles

In s11, Ian and Mickey’s relationship is very entwined, and, in comparison to Tami and Lip, for instance, they disclose a lot to each other. Ian asks that they tell each other everything, and although Mickey is more resistant to that initially, he becomes much more forthcoming with his feelings in s11 (around Terry, around moving to the West Side, around becoming a parent). 

While I appreciate Ian’s role in initiating more communication between the two of them, I felt sorry for Mickey in their initial discussion in 11x01 in re “monogamous or not”. The turning over the paper method is a pretty binary way to open up a discussion about a very charged and complicated thing. 

They do seem to complement each other in this regard though with Ian generally more keen to initiate conversation but also getting more trapped into binaries, narratives of normativity and should-stories. While Mickey totally still projects an image that is informed by local expectations around masculinity and white supremacy, he’s also a rule-breaker in many ways and doesn’t have the same desire to conform to what society perceives to be “normal” (thanks HoS), especially behind closed doors and within his relationship with Ian (“liking what I like don’t make me a bitch”).  @fiona-fififi had a really good point in the tags a while back about how Mickey’s investment in their wedding and its success might have spurred Ian on further to embrace more normative ways of doing relationships. This is super interesting, and also makes me think just about how being married itself prompts Ian to think about taking a more active role in pushing the relationship further up the relationship escalator and in pushing for more communication around these steps in general. 

There’s also something to be said about pressurising each other in 11x07, especially when they jokingly(?) threaten each other with sex with other men if both of them aren’t around. I doubt they were making these suggestions seriously but it definitely doesn’t strike me as the most consensual method of communication. But there’s parallels here with generally using sex as a bargaining chip earlier on in the season. Ian seems to do that after having exhausted his attempts at trying to have conversations around money/monogamy etc, as a tried and tested way of getting Mickey to engage with him. And it definitely reflects using sex with each other and sex/relationships with other people (e.g. s3 Angie/Ned, s10 Byron/Cole) as modes of communication in earlier seasons. It kind of makes sense that they still have these habits in s11 even if they are no longer the primary mode of communication. 

Ian and Mickey relied so much on implicit communication in the early seasons and they have highly developed nonverbal ways of communicating. I don’t want to say that either verbal or nonverbal ways of communicating are inherently better than the other. They seem to understand each other on a deep level, which is really cool, but people have pointed out can make them think they don’t need to verbally communicate when they do, because they assume that they’ll understand one another and be on the same page. It’s super interesting to see them maintain that deep connection and continue to use nonverbal cues while also adopting more explicit and intentional communication styles in s10 and s11. 

The windows of their relationship

The fandom is always bringing up how Ian and Mickey leave the doors open when they bang, lol, and also making fun of how much Ian overshares. I think this is v fair but it also strikes me as pretty healthy that he wants people to see into his and Mickey’s relationship, especially in his discussions with Lip. But Ian’s got plenty of people around him who can see and help when things get tough. 

In s11, it’s great to see Mickey get closer to the Gallagher family and see various members defending him or taking his side in arguments, but he definitely does have less of an on-screen support system than Ian. (I wish that they had developed his and Sandy’s relationship in s11). I think the aftermath of the City Hall incident in s10 really reveals this particular imbalance in their relationship. On one level, Mickey moves in with Byron as a reaction to being hurt and even maybe a strategy of revenge/manipulation, on another, he doesn’t really have anywhere to go aside from the Gallagher house when/if he needs to get away from Ian. Also, the way he retreats back to the Gallagher house when he can’t deal with the Westside is an interesting development of this in s11. 

Ian’s need to share stuff about their relationship is kind of exciting considering his history of being unforthcoming about his relationships (and his history of being in a lot of secret relationships), as well as how difficult he found it to talk about Mickey while Mickey was away. But there is a different problem with ongoing talk around privacy and boundaries here too (Mickey doesn’t want Ian to chat about how he’s not into rimming!). Although to be fair, Mickey also chats about a lot of explicit sex stuff with strangers. 

Although they do ultimately decide against pursuing the pretty inorganic way of making friends in 11x07, Ian’s desire to make gay friends who he can talk to about relationship stuff makes sense in terms of the way he has been pushing for a more intentional relationship with more communication and more explicit discussion and compromise this season (and last season too). It also intersects with an idea of him/both of them going further to embrace gay sexuality as an identity. 

It’s interesting that Mickey’s the one to initiate this decision through ribbing Ian about his relationship with Lip. Why’s Mickey doing that? Is it just to be a little shit or is he also trying (subconsciously?) to activate Ian in some direction? (And also, maybe there’s a parallel there to getting their apartment in the west side, where Mickey’s the one inadvertently introducing Ian to the idea by pushing for them to go play in the pool). 

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There’s a lot here which is just scratching the surface of thinking about Ian and Mickey’s relationship in the context of these different sexuality and relationship continua. For e.g. it would be really interesting to think more about this stuff in terms of shifting sex roles and kink exploration. Of course it’s all up for interpretation and I am sure I am highlighting areas that I’m personally interested in and inadvertently projecting myself/my own preferences and styles into this discussion. Very down for disagreements and discussions if other people are interested and manage to read all of this, lol. 

[dramaticviolincrescendo]

Rewatching Shameless and i just watched 6x1 jail scene. Can I request a meta if its not too much trouble? I feel like reading a really good meta about that scene and you're one of the best we've got so.....

It’s never any trouble at all! That’s so sweet to say—thank you so much! <3 Kind of coming to terms with the idea that anyone cares about my opinion over here. You guys are too much!

This scene is actually extremely important to me because it and the response to it were what made me start writing Shameless fanfiction, specifically when I saw that my views regarding Ian’s behavior and how Mickey received it were so vastly different from what I initially read. (Insert shameless plug for “That Milkovich Reputation” here.) Now, I know you’ve told me not to do this before, but based on the controversial position in which this scene resides, I feel the need to present a couple of disclaimers for our audience at large.

I first fell in love with Shameless last March, a couple weeks before quarantine began. I didn’t know what it was prior to that and therefore was not present when Noel left the show, so I didn’t experience the disappointment of a beloved character leaving in a potentially permanent way and didn’t engage in the fandom or see how deeply upset people were by that until after I finished the series. I also don’t subscribe to the theory that there was something going on behind the scenes or any animosity between Noel and the creators, as I have not seen any relevant evidence from reliable sources to support that what happened was anything other than decisions made in pursuit of career goals on both sides. As such, my analysis of this scene has only ever taken the content and context of the story and characters into account. I have no interest in speculating on the motives of people I do not know in writing it or portraying it this way, and even if I did, this scene made perfect sense to me as it was written and performed.

I understand and appreciate that this is not a popular position to take and urge everyone to pass this post by if my position on that matter is offensive or upsetting to you. I do not mean to tell anyone what to think or believe, only to explain how I view this scene and the context in which I do so.

That said, let’s begin.

When Last Seen: Mickey

As in all things, context is important. Prior to the prison scene, the last time we saw Mickey was when Ian broke up with him and Sammi interrupted their heartfelt moment, which basically sums up her character in a nutshell. That was a rough couple of days for Mickey. He saw how devastated Ian was to hear his family talk about him as though he were just like Monica; was distressed in his own right to return for him and discover that he’d left the base with Monica; buried his frustration and sadness by sleeping around with other people, which seemed to exacerbate those emotions because those people weren’t Ian, nor had he and Ian broken up when he did it; and came running when Ian called him, only for Ian to end their relationship.

Mickey is a very sharp man—we know this. He can read people like books and manipulate or intimidate them accordingly. He knew Ian had feelings for him in s1 when he showed up on his doorstep seeking comfort rather than going to any number of other people he trusted. He was well aware that Ian loved him in s3, and that made what he felt he had no choice in doing that much more painful. He heard what Ian said and knew what he was doing in 5x12. Of that, I have never had any doubt. It wasn’t like Ian tried to hide that he didn’t want to break up but thought that that was what would be best. In fact, the way he initially framed it always made me think that one of his highest priorities was not dragging Mickey down with him, especially in the aftermath of being called “destructive” and similar to someone who “put them through hell.” That’s why Mickey’s response wasn’t to call him an asshole or get angry or beg. It was to reassure Ian that he was there for the long haul, that he loved him and wanted to take care of him no matter what that meant—and that they could make that work. All the sentiments Ian had tried to communicate before he got married, Mickey was reciprocating in his own way. Had they not needed to temporarily write Mickey out of the story and Sammi hadn’t shown up right that second, I believe that he wouldn’t have given up so easily. We do have confirmation of that being the case in the prison scene, but we’ll get to that shortly.

When Last Seen: Ian

Ian isn’t a selfish character. We know this, too. However, Ian needed to be selfish by the end of s5. What he had to come to terms with wasn’t something that anyone could fully help him with, much as Mickey desperately wanted to. To Ian, the enemy was within. It was inside him, in his brain, telling him what to do even if that destroyed himself and everything he loved. It’s terrifying. I’m not bipolar, nor do I suffer from any other diagnosed mental illnesses, but I admire and respect everyone who wakes up every morning and tackles these things. They’re heroes every single day. But by the end of s5, Ian doesn’t feel much like a hero. Instead, he feels like the villain, and he’s lost touch with who he even is anymore.

That’s not a healthy mindset to have in a relationship. Relationships require a level of give and take, and that used to be something that Ian and Mickey already struggled with. Ian gave more in s1-3 because he was able to, while Mickey had a limit on what he could openly give because of the environment in which he lived and the manner in which he was raised. In s4-5, those roles were reversed: Mickey was able to give so much more, but Ian was gradually falling apart. Neither of them are at fault for any of those situations. It is what it is, and they have a stronger relationship for it. Ian is a giver, though. He’s always been a giver. To be in a position where he doesn’t feel like he can give anything to Mickey because he doesn’t even know who he is was truly heartbreaking for him, and objectively, he needed to take a step back so that he could focus on himself. He knew it. Based on Mickey’s understanding of Ian’s reasons after watching him deny that he had a problem for so long, I think Mickey knew it too. This hurt both of them—Ian to say it and Mickey to hear it—but they’re not fools and they’re not naïve. In some ways, they know each other better than anyone.

Jimmy said that when you’re on a plane, they tell you to put on your mask before you help anyone else with theirs. Ian needed to put on his mask. His heart can’t keep beating if his lungs don’t work.

Starting Season 6: Mickey

Unsurprisingly, Mickey has settled into prison life just fine. We’ll focus on his interactions with Ian in a bit as that’s the meat of the scene, but there are major implications inherent in his discussion with Svetlana beforehand.

1.      Mickey has accepted that this will be his reality for the foreseeable future. What else is he supposed to do? Besides, he’s known for a long time that the likelihood of ending up in prison was pretty high for him, as he alluded to in s2. He was a street thug. He stole from local stores, sold drugs, ran guns, operated a rub ‘n’ tug, created scam companies, and was a generally violent presence in the neighborhood for years. He was in juvie twice during the show, perhaps more beforehand. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that it would have been more surprising if Mickey didn’t get locked up at some point than that he did.

2.      Ian has visited Mickey before. We won’t get too deeply into this yet, but he thanks Ian for “coming back.” The other times, he wasn’t even paid to do it. So, as far as Mickey can tell, nothing has changed. Ian is focusing on himself right now, but his love for Mickey hasn’t dulled at all. That’s an encouraging thought, and it certainly puts a smile on Mickey’s face.

3.      Ever the opportunist and entrepreneur, Mickey really is doing just fine in prison. He runs a business, if you will, that appears to be quite lucrative already. This isn’t surprising either. Sadly, it’s a bad move. He’s already going to be in prison for somewhere around a decade, give or take a couple of years depending on his behavior. But his behavior isn’t good. He’s hurting people for money, and if he gets caught and brought up on more charges, not only will he serve the full fifteen years, but he could get more time added onto that.

4.      Ian is aware of this arrangement. He has to be if he’s been going there with Svetlana, and they weren’t exactly hiding what they were talking about. Ian has been very consistent throughout the series: he’s not as concerned with the moral implications of Mickey’s behavior, just how it could potentially impact their ability to be together. He still cares about Mickey at the start of s6, and Mickey can see it on his face when he won’t say it out loud. (More on that shortly.) Once he’s in a better spot mentally, maybe they would have gotten back together had Mickey been on the outside. I’m of the opinion that they would have based on the context of the situation. It isn’t an option, however. This is Mickey’s reality, and he’s not doing everything he can to get out earlier. If anything, he’s tempting fate on not being released at all. (This, in hindsight, sounds rather similar to the issues they’re dealing with right now in s11.)

So, this is where Mickey stands at the start of the season: a prison hitman who is quite pleased that the man he loves has come to see him again, even if the latter is visibly not in a very healthy mental state.

Starting Season 6: Ian

Ian isn’t in most of 6x01. What we do see of him is typically sad or colored by his frustration, outside Carl’s welcome home party at the end of the episode. Even then, there’s an aura of discomfort that accompanies the family’s knowledge that things have changed. Carl came out of juvie a different person—they’re all different people after s5, and they’re not sure how to handle walking on eggshells around each other.

From the very start of the episode, we see that Ian is still struggling even though he’s had enough time to at least partially adjust to his medication, especially if he’s been on and off of it. It’s so sweet how Fiona gently wakes him up—it’s also a bit different. What happened to banging on the bunk bed and yelling for them to come down for breakfast? After behaving pretty normally with Debbie at the bathroom door, she’s almost handling him with kid gloves, and the punches keep coming when she reminds him that he (1) has to get up for work at a place he despises and (2) needs to remember to take his meds.

The kitchen scene is extremely telling of where Ian is at this point, and it partially shows why he’s somewhat standoffish by the time we reach the prison scene. Most of the family is gone or different. Fiona is repeatedly on him about meds and getting to work on time—Ian, Mister Responsible himself who was out of the house before anybody woke up to get to work on time as a kid. Lip is at college. Debbie is absorbed in her unconfirmed but likely pregnancy. Carl is in juvie, and Liam is playing with the switchblade he found under Carl’s pillow before they take him to pre-K. His entire support system is either gone or treating him like he’s broken. All he has is Fiona “going Fiona” on everyone. It’s clear that this is impacting him because he actually derails the conversation to say that they should go visit Carl the following weekend, which was the position Debbie used to be in when Fiona was in jail. Just like Lip shut her down, Debbie shuts Ian down, and he doesn’t say another word as he drinks his coffee—which he can’t finish because Fiona is once again on him about work, so he trudges out the door to another day of being a busboy with no dreams instead of a soldier who has a future.

Work isn’t much better. Svetlana wants him to go see Mickey when he’s determined to stay away. (We don’t have confirmation, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that he wants to distance himself if Mickey is doing something that will potentially get him into even more trouble, especially given some of his reactions at the prison.) Sean is sending Fiona to nag him about not moving fast enough when the diner isn’t even busy. When Otis is chased down by the cops and slammed against the front window, Sean rather condescendingly tells him to, “take your rag and wipe the blood and snot off the window.” Ian—West Point-aspiring, ambitious, courageous, caring, intelligent, hardworking Ian has been reduced to wiping up someone’s snot by a boss who’s living in his house with a sister that’s treating him like he’s shattered glass and a family that is growing further and further apart these days.

That is the day Ian has had before he even arrives at the prison. Odds are that that is how most of his days have gone for quite some time, minus the blood and snot. …Maybe.

The Prison Scene

Now we come to it: what you actually asked about! It’s taken this long to get here because we can’t possibly interpret this scene effectively without incorporating all of what came before it. Mickey’s position is regrettable, but he knows that Ian still loves him and is at least handling his situation with all the grace and competence that we can expect from him. Ian is a bit of a mess who’s had a bad day and is now faced with the man he loves, who he is telling himself he can’t be with, sitting behind glass—where he’ll be for a good long while.

I’m going to divide this analysis into two sections. For a scene that many prefer to forget, to me, it’s a masterpiece of storytelling.

Physicality

The body language in this scene is remarkable—phenomenally blocked, phenomenally directed, and phenomenally portrayed.

When Mickey first appears, he’s visibly chomping at the bit to get to the visitation area. He’s peering out there while he’s still behind a locked door, and he only diverts his gaze to the guard because he’s waiting for him to unlock it. He’s cool about the whole thing—he’s very cool—but he’s obviously also here for one reason and one reason only. That reason is where his eyes go the moment he sits down at his stall and spots Ian’s coat where the latter is pacing behind Svetlana. Throughout their entire conversation, we see his eyes darting to Ian as he attempts to get the business out of the way so that he can indulge purely in the pleasure. It doesn’t matter to him that Ian is visibly tired and reluctant to be there or that he plays with Yevgeny instead of actively joining their conversation. It’s Ian, and all Mickey has to look at in here is a bunch of fellow thugs he hasn’t loved since he was too young to know what that meant. Damn right, he’s going to shamelessly watch him.

In Ian’s pacing, where we can’t see his face, I find it interesting that he keeps himself angled away from the glass. We see more of his back even though he’s moving side to side rather than away. He doesn’t want to see this. He doesn’t want to be there. In s7, he told Mickey how hard it was to see him behind glass—that wasn’t an excuse. He wasn’t falsely trying to make it sound like he was suffering at their separation just as much as Mickey was. We can see that that’s the case right here in 6x01. Ian has never had a problem sitting still through difficult moments, not even when a potential court martial that would further ruin his life was on the table. But this? He can’t sit down. He can’t face that.

The first time he turns directly towards Mickey’s location is so that Svetlana can hand Yevgeny off to him, and Mickey is visibly loving the view. His expression gets a bit softer, and he ducks his head a little so that he can catch a glimpse of Ian’s face. He follows Ian with his eyes even though Svetlana tries to get his attention. What a blast from the past, right? Ian there with his son, taking care of him while he and Svetlana figure out their business? And just like before, he offers Svetlana all of the attention and input that he deems her worth—next to nothing. Ian’s over there. Ian’s keeping the kid entertained, playing with him and rocking a bit in their seat and leaning over his little shoulder to make sure he’s doing okay—but forget that, Mickey’s eyes are examining him from red hair to beat-up shoes. He only glances back to Svetlana because he has to in order to get the information for their next paycheck. Even then, he’s still back and forth, up and down.

And Ian? He can’t keep pacing. He can’t stay turned away, but he won’t look. He occupies himself more than Yevgeny because now he’s low enough that he won’t just see an orange jumpsuit—he’ll see Mickey, and he’s had a bad enough day with his family making him feel more alone than ever without adding that pain on top of it. (This is the third time Mickey’s been locked up for something directly or indirectly related to Ian. I’m sure it’s not unreasonable to suspect that he also feels somewhat guilty about that, especially when it happened right after he broke it off.)

When Mickey asks if Ian is going to sit back there the whole time and not interact with him, Svetlana turns around and presumably says something to get his attention. Their eyes meet, and Mickey gives him a look that clearly says, “What the fuck, man?” This isn’t the behavior of a man who is heartbroken at their relationship ending or questioning Ian’s love for him. This is the behavior of a man who wants the love of his life to get his shit together enough to come say hi to him—or at least look at him—because he can’t pretend that he doesn’t want to see Mickey as much as Mickey wants to see him. It’s impossible to hide that when Ian has let Mickey see so much of his heart over the years.

Ian’s response is so fascinating because he does meet Mickey’s eyes, and he holds that connection for a moment. Then, reading what Mickey is trying to tell him, he actually turns further away again so that Mickey gets his shoulder. This sets the stage for the rest of Ian’s development from now through s9. He’s doing what Ian does: he’s compartmentalizing. He’s taking the emotions he can’t deal with right now, wrapping them in tissue paper, and neatly stacking them in a box that he’ll put up in the attic where he can pretend they don’t exist. But they do. They really do.

If they didn’t, he wouldn’t have spent their entire conversation trying so hard to focus on literally anything but Mickey, because as we saw in the Hall of Shame flashbacks and as has been obvious since their first fight-turned-fuck, once they look, the battle is lost.

Dialogue

I’m going to be real with you guys: I adore this scene. I’ve watched it more times than I can count even though I haven’t rewatched much of the season in its entirety. There was so much said with so few words, and while I was sad at the end, I was also hopeful. This was an impossible position to be put in on both sides, and I truly believe that this was the best resolution they could get at the time. And yes, it hurt. It was painful. But why was it painful?

Because they’re so visibly, obviously, irrevocably in love.

Mickey’s tone when he tells Svetlana to leave because he wants to talk to Ian isn’t as harsh as it’s been for the rest of their visit. There’s such a disconnect between his words and tone: roughly telling her to scram while actually sounding a bit younger at the idea of speaking directly with Ian. Svetlana could tell. It’s so clear, and her smirk is super knowing. In that moment, we’re seeing the woman who stood in the doorway of what was supposed to be her bedroom and watched him make eyes at this unconscious boy she didn’t really even remember. Not in the tears and realizing she was in big, big trouble if he left her, but in the understanding that his heart isn’t in the body on the other side of the glass—it’s sitting behind her. There are a lot of things I don’t like about Svetlana as a person (as a character, she’s amazing), but since they reached their agreement in s4, she’s never had a derogatory thing to say about the love those two share, and I respect that. It’s actually a bit cute how she takes her time and is almost teasing in giving him what he wants. A bit.

As I have this scene running on repeat so that I don’t miss anything in writing this, I paused to type and ended up on such a meaningful glance at Ian’s face. Svetlana just took Yevgeny from him, and he hasn’t gotten up yet. He’s staring straight at Mickey, and he looks hesitant. Scared, almost. Then he looks up at Svetlana, nods a bit, and reluctantly moves into her spot.

Is it overkill to take this one exchange at a time? Probably. Am I going to do it anyway? Hell to the yes.

1.      “Thanks for coming back.”/”Yeah… Svetlana paid me.” – I know that people hate this line and think this is painful. I know that it objectively is painful. I still laugh every time. Not because Ian agreed to come if he was paid. (He’s got medication to afford and no insurance. I can’t begrudge him wanting to make a few extra bucks any way he can.) Not because of the words, but because of what accompanies them. Ian will not look at Mickey—he’s lost so many battles lately, and he can’t lose this one too. Not when he started this one himself. He’s hemming and hawing, not looking up from the countertop and then twisting around to see if Svetlana is still there or anyone else is listening. It’s so stupid, because literally no one cares, but it gives you this sensation that Ian sees himself as being under a microscope the whole time. That’s his life anymore, at home and at work and now here. And Mickey? He doesn’t look terribly broken up about Ian accepting payment in exchange for coming. He gets this expression that I interpreted as, “Seriously? You’re playing it like that?” Then it settles into disappointment that Ian won’t open up or look at him like he normally would—that the glass interferes with the magnetic pull between them. But don’t worry, children. Uncle Mickey has just the thing to fix that: himself.

2.      “You look good.”/*awkward silence* – I mean…what do you say to that? I actually felt so bad for Ian there because what must he have looked like these last visits if Mickey is telling him that he looks good now? What kind of mess was he then when he’s still sort of a mess today? And he can’t even return the sentiment because how can he? Mickey is in prison. He’s in a jumpsuit looking at being here so long that he’ll probably have a few grey hairs starting to grow in when he gets out. I don’t know how to respond when people tell me I look good on an average day, so I can only imagine how that must have felt in his position. And still, he won’t do more than glance in Mickey’s direction. Well, if that didn’t work…

3.      Mickey chuckles and says he got a new tattoo. Ian’s eyes immediately shoot upwards, and Mickey slouches a little so that he’s in their direct line of sight—to hold them there, because once they look, the battle is lost. And Ian does lose. For a while there, he can’t look away again. First, because Mickey is courting some pretty nasty illnesses with his improper use of needles. Seriously, Mickey, a beautiful gesture but holy crap. Second, Mickey has his name (or a very close approximation to it) tattooed forever right over his heart. Ian had asked if Mickey was going to marry him, and Mickey told him to fuck off, but everything he’s doing points in the opposite direction. He promised sickness and health; now he’s made a permanent mark on his body for everyone to see. Mickey, who wouldn’t be seen in public with him once upon a time, has plastered Ian’s name onto his body. Ian tries so hard not to let that impact him, but it’s over. He’s lost the battle already, and he falls further and further. He’s smiling when he tells Mickey it looks infected, he teases him about the misspelling (which I think says more about how much that tattoo must have hurt than any inability to spell on Mickey’s part—I’d have a typo too), and he laughs at Mickey’s irritation that he messed it up. And it’s this sweet little laugh, not cruel or hurtful or mean. The wonderful thing about humor is that it can be used to cope with difficult emotions. We’ve seen a lot of people on the show start laughing when they’re in a bad place. Ian has been trying so hard to accept his life as it is even during the shitty day he was having. He tried so hard not to let himself fall into the trap of letting his love for Mickey rule his actions in the scene so far. That’s a lot. That’s denying himself to the point where I’m sure it hurts. And so he laughs, because Mickey did this crazy, absurd thing for him and yeah, it came out wrong, but he did it. This was all Ian wanted once upon a time (minus the felony), and now he has it—but he can’t have it. So he laughs. He immediately moves to hide it, but he laughs. He smiles more and has to bend away to pretend that he’s not—and Mickey lights up like a goddamn Christmas tree. This is the moment that keeps me from seeing this scene or Ian’s actions as being cruel. They’re both hurting, and this is an awful position to be in. But Ian loves him so much, and Mickey was doing everything he could to make him show it. Not exactly how he saw that going, I’m sure, but he’ll take it.

4.      “Been thinking about you.” – Knowing that he lost that one, Ian looks away again. While the end of this scene will hurt for both of them, especially Mickey, think about the pain he must be feeling in that moment simply because he’s not. He’s not hurting. For the first time that day, he feels good. This can’t last. Mickey isn’t coming home with him when time is up. This wonderful emotion that filled him up enough for him to laugh and smile after such a bad day will be gone the second he hangs up that phone. Then he’s going to go home and have Fiona breathing down his neck with nobody else for support. And Mickey will be here—behind glass. He can’t handle that, and he pulls that box out again and starts tearing off the tissue paper. He has to get rid of this feeling. He has to be the one to put it away before it kicks him to the curb. He’s stubborn, and Mickey can see him shutting down but also knows that he’s knocked enough bricks out of Ian’s walls to say something softer, something emotional and closer to the heart. Something he is willing to say where the other inmates can hear, which I don’t think is lost on Ian since he immediately looks up again. He doesn’t look away either, not even when Mickey asks if Ian thinks about him. He glances to the side and opens his mouth a bit, but nothing comes out. Mickey knows the answer.

5.      “Gonna wait for me?”/”You’re here for fifteen years.” – There’s this thing Mickey does after he first says that. He chuckles, because he knows that that’s pretty unreasonable to ask and has already predicted Ian’s response. His comment about being out in eight is lighthearted, a serious matter spoken as a joke because…this isn’t juvie anymore. They’re not going to see each other in a few months. This is Mickey’s version of what Ian was just doing, only where Ian tried to withdraw and escape within himself, Mickey is making it more humorous. He’s always done that, make light of pretty serious things to avoid looking at just how messed up it is. But I didn’t get the feeling he was really asking for Ian to wait that long. Instead, I got the feeling that he was testing the waters, seeing if Ian would shut him down—which he didn’t. He offered the bullshit excuse that Mickey tried to kill a member of his family, and Mickey saw through that immediately. I think he knows that he can’t ask Ian to seriously wait and never be with anyone else for fifteen years, or even for eight. I think he knows what he’s saying is a touch absurd. He also knows that Ian’s excuse is extremely absurd, and he doesn’t buy it for a second. It gives him a little courage to do something…well, a bit absurd.

6.      “Will you? Wait? Fucking lie if you have to, man. Eight years is a long time.” – I think the important part of this isn’t that Ian says he’ll wait when he doesn’t mean it, which is the popular take. For one thing, I don’t think we can ascribe that level of calculated behavior to Ian in this instance. There are a few things about this part of the scene that mean a lot to me: (1) Ian doesn’t get up and go. He doesn’t even move in that direction. He sits there with the phone after the buzzer sounds and before Mickey tells him to lie. His mouth opens and closes like he’s not sure what to say. Because what can he say? If Mickey serves the maximum, Ian will be in his mid-thirties by the time they can be together. At that point, he was either nearing eighteen or just turned. I still can’t fathom what I’ll be doing in my mid-thirties, and I’m a whole lot older than that. Ian looks just a little terrified here, and that’s because he knows he loves Mickey but has no clue what he’s supposed to do with that in the impossible circumstances they’re operating under. (2) Ian can’t even see himself moving on yet. He’s still trying to figure himself out, not think about a relationship. He has a job he hates, and his family is a different brand of chaos these days. He feels alone, yes, but not in a way that has him openly desperate for a relationship. Based on what he says to Mandy about Caleb, I think it’s pretty safe to assume that he doesn’t think he’ll ever be in a serious relationship at this point or even in a position for more than casual sex anytime in the near future. How can he say that he’ll wait when he doesn’t know where he’ll be whenever Mickey does get out? Maybe he’ll feel better. Maybe he’ll be out of his mind, roaming all over the place like Monica. Maybe he won’t just be standing on that bridge. It’s a huge question, one that has a lot of ramifications no matter what his answer is, and Ian clearly has none. He’s blindsided by that, which Mickey sees. That’s when he gets serious about those eight years, about how absurd their situation really is. That’s perhaps the first and only time in this scene where we can see that, for as successful as he is at navigating prison, his freedom means something to him. His freedom means he wouldn’t have to coax a glance out of Ian—he could kiss his dumb ass and make him stop being stubborn about how much he loves Mickey. But he can’t. He won’t be able to for a long time. And I think that is what really breaks his heart in this scene, not…

7.      “Yeah. Yeah, Mick, I’ll wait.” – Did anyone else notice how Ian swallowed hard before he answered? How his voice gets hoarse when he first speaks? I paused again to type, and the video is sitting on his face staring at the counter before the second part of what he says. He looks like he might cry. He looks like his heart is breaking just as much as Mickey’s is, because he can do what he’s asking this time—reassure him with a lie. Not because he doesn’t intend to wait, but because he is buried so far under what life has piled on top of him that he can’t see the light these days, and he doesn’t see waiting or moving on. He just sees the daily struggle of being this shell of a person. Of being without Mickey even if they’re not technically together. (Admittedly, I think he knew they would be if Mickey weren’t in prison at that moment. Ian has no real self-control where he’s concerned. Lip told him as much, and he’s self-aware enough to realize it, hence his behavior in this whole scene.)

When Ian hangs up the phone, he doesn’t get up immediately. He looks at Mickey—really looks at him—and each of them watches the other’s heart shatter. I don’t see it the way a lot of people do, though. On Mickey’s side, I don’t see it as being because Ian lied. I think it’s so much bigger than that.

Ian looks at him when they can’t hear each other anymore, and if he didn’t seem ready to cry before, he looks it now. Why? Because there’s nothing he can do for Mickey besides that. Ian, ever the giver, can’t give him anything. At that point, he couldn’t even help himself. He can’t be what Mickey needs in that moment, just like he couldn’t be what Mickey needed while he was sick, and it kills him. It kills him to know that by the time Mickey does get out, he’ll be older than he can fathom being and has no idea if he’ll even be around that long. It kills him to feel like even if he is, he’ll still have nothing to offer because, in his own words, this is where he lands. And it kills him to have to walk away and leave what he loves most behind glass.

Mickey is watching this. He knows Ian, and as painful as it was to get exactly what he asked for, it’s even more painful for him to see what him being here does to Ian. Where Ian is a giver, Mickey is a fixer. He makes things better. When stuff is broken, he puts it back together. When there’s a problem, he resolves it. Ian was going to leave because he couldn’t be an unacknowledged number three in Mickey’s life anymore? He jumped to solve the problem by coming out. Ian was acting strangely and wouldn’t get out of bed for so long that Mickey realized something was wrong? He immediately went to hunt down Lip, who he knows is closer to Ian than anyone else in his family. Fiona tells him that Ian is sick and needs to be cared for? He jumps in to do it, even to the point where it did more harm than good. Sammi caused a problem that Mickey couldn’t solve? He fixed the problem of her being there at all. But here he sits, behind glass, watching Ian that whole time and knowing that he was trying to maintain some emotional distance—and, because it’s Mickey, knowing why. There’s nothing he can do about this. He can’t fix it. For the first time since s3, Mickey is absolutely helpless to fix a problem. He takes a breath as Ian walks away as though he’s about to say something, but what can he say? What can he do? Nothing. He can do nothing but hang up the phone and weather the storm.

In the end, the heartbreak in this scene isn’t about them hurting each other, from my perspective. It’s not about Ian being callous and cruel or purposely trying to hurt Mickey. They know each other too well for that. They’ve been through too much. To me, this is about two people who love each other more than anything not being able to be what the other needed when they needed them—and that’s a whole lot more painful.

[haircoveredwriter]

Welp, it happened again. I guess my subconscious is more excited about S11 than I knew or maybe I'm just so bored with the lack of spoilers that it's taken matters into its own hands (so to speak). Again, this is a free flow of phone word vomit.

This convoy is huge.

Carol glances up at The Commonwealth truck a few feet ahead, feeling the earth rumble beneath from the 4 others she knows are behind them. It would be easy enough to catch a ride in one. Been walking most of the day already without more than a few minutes to catch their breath or get a needed bathroom break, but it's easier this way. Sitting between a bunch of worried children and parents isn't the kind of heartbreaking reminder she needs right now to bring back everything she's lost. She only has to close her eyes for that.

Daryl: Hey, you good?

His soft tone soothes the burning pangs building in her chest as she offers a weak smile in return.

Carol: Yeah ... just tired is all.

It's not the whole truth and they both know it, yet now isn't the time for mending fractured souls. Daryl quirks his mouth awkwardly and nods, allowing the fib to pass unnoticed while he changes the subject.

Daryl: Think we're bigger than any herd of walkers left. Guess that means we're safe. If anybody's still out there, they'd have to be crazy to try anything.

Carol: Or Mercer's arms will scare them off.

Their eyes travel together to land upon the red-clad mercenary riding a horse at the front of the pack. Stifled laughter fills the space between them as the horse objects, and the man's tensing arms glisten under the fading sunset.

Daryl: Nah, he seems alright. A little uptight but Ezekial trusts him so we should probably give him the benefit of the doubt.

Dog pads to Daryl's side, leaning wholly into the face scratches offered and groans when fingers reach his ears.

Carol: When did you join the Ezekial fanclub?

Her tone is quizzical and playful, knits brows offset by the coy smirk she's directing straight at him. Letting Dog wander off into the crowd, Daryl shrugs, toying with a worn strap across his chest.

Daryl: You told me once he was a good guy. Figure, if he passed the test with you ... that's all I need to know.

Her lips curve into a full smile.

Carol: Remembering minor opinions I made years ago ... knowing about my claustrophobia. You're a regular Encyclopedia Brown, Mr. Dixon.

Daryl: Huh?

She can't help but laugh slightly at his confusion, pulling it together moments later to clarify.

Carol: He was a boy detective in a whole series of children's books growing up. Knew everything that was going on. What, not your cup of tea? Bet you were more of a cowboys and Indians type of kid.

Daryl: Liked the Hardy boys enough but none of them dealt with anything real. Just lost, secret museum stuff or some myth about a creepy guy living in a haunted house outside of town. Nancy Drew was better. She did it all on her own.

The thick silence which follows lifts his head, finding Carol frozen on the road behind and he scoffs at her expression.

Daryl: Stahp.

Her hands raise in mock surrender.

Carol: I didn't say anything.

They fall easily back into moving without words, ghosts of faded laughter settling in to an accepted comfort that's always been. There isn't anything they couldn't say to eachother. After a long beat, he breathes in deep before uncovering the last leaf of his heart.

Daryl: I spent a lot time as a kid out in the woods ... more than at home. If you'd even call it a home. But being out there taught me one thing though; it taught me how to pay attention.

Taking hold of her hand, his palm fits effortlessly against hers and their fluttering pulses beat in time. Her bottom lip wavers as he holds the promise in her eyes.

Daryl: I pay attention to what's important.

[shameless-notashamed]

my main thought after 11x11 is wtf is going on? this is supposed to be the penultimate episode of the entire series, but i’m left with more questions and i don’t see how the series finale could ever answer all of them.

ian and mickey’s whole debacle of a storyline was of course my favorite. although it was laced with the same intensity as the rest, i don’t find myself worrying for either of them the same way as i do the other gallaghers. and that right there is definitely saying something. and it does feel nice not to always be waiting for the other shoe to drop. it’s still never simple, and these two seem to find ways to over complicate things, but at least it feels stable in a way i maybe never thought it really ever would or could have been.

after two seasons of sandy integrating herself into the gallagher and milkovich families, we are supposed to so easily accept this new love interest for debbie? debbie was told to go looking for a relationship in which the other person was more of a loser than she was, so does this mean we are meant to believe sandy was better than debbie? why make sandy such an important person to mickey in s10 and then for debbie in s11, just to completely write her off so near the end of the show? we may never know.

is carl going to be a father? carl gallagher? put a goldfish into a microwave, carl gallagher? my mind is completely mixed on this possible outcome, but i’m rooting for him. thus the complexities of shameless and also carl.

everything about frank leaves me utterly confused and i’m also deeply invested, which is baffling seeing as how i’ve had a lot of trouble caring about frank for a while now, if ever? even still, debbie has no right to blame frank for her jilted love life. she is surrounded by people who have found nurturing and loving relationships both in spite of and despite their parents... and to see lip struggling to find his way and the money for a home for tami and freddie, then for frank to dangle the idea of a “gold brick” salvation in front of lip is perplexing. this is most especially because it’s coming from the guy who somehow stole an iconic painting from the art institute of chicago... but what resonated with me most is frank and liam, they have a storied and historied past together. please, for all the stars i can wish upon in the sky, although frank’s outcome is yet uncertain, don’t let it be liam who finds him

i completely understand kev’s need for sentimentality as he leaves the only life he’s ever known for the hopes and promises of something more for his family. him and v have overcome their own pitfalls, yet have still come out on top. i can’t not be happy for them, but it also makes me sad thinking about how they will no longer be around looking out for the gallaghers. i felt that when lip realized they wouldn’t be his neighbors anymore.

i can’t help but feel tense leading up to next week’s final episode. especially with how this one ended. i don’t expect some all encompassing perfection of a finale, that just wouldn’t be shameless. but i do have hope. i hope that when we at last part ways, the bittersweet emotions i’m sure to feel might be a little more on the sweet side.

[my-mt-heart]

When exactly do you think they're going canon? Bonus? It's episodes of S11? Mid season? Final episodes? Spin-off?

In my humble opinion, the bonus eps are going to get to the root cause of the wedge that’s been driven between them. In theory, that means they have to acknowledge how much they mean to each other, so I get why some are speculating Daryl might finally show his hand, admit he was jealous of Zeke, etc. It’s totally possible. I’m just skeptical because I feel like I know this show. I know it likes to stretch some of its most important storylines paper thin, namely Caryl’s. I think, or I’m at least optimistic, that there will be some kind of payoff to all this angst by the end of 10x22. It just might be something more toned down such as them admitting they need each other without saying to what capacity. 

The love confession will likely come as soon as one of them (I’m leaning towards Daryl) figures out exactly what he wants. It seems like he’s starting to, but he’s not quite there yet, and I think that’s where the commonwealth comes into play. He’s not going to fit in. He’s going to realize he would be happier if he were out on the road again, but only if Carol goes with him. 

I don’t think they’re going to officially become a couple until Carol gets over her fear of losing people, and that’s probably going to take more time. I could see her having her emotional breakthrough closer to the end of S11 if not the very end, admitting her feelings to Daryl and choosing to leave with him. 

Spreading their romantic journey throughout S11 makes the most sense to me right now. That being said, I’m prepared for the show to cram everything into the series finale because, well, we all know it pulls bullshit stunts like that. Hopefully not, though. Caryl’s relationship (and Daryl’s love life in general) is one of the biggest phenomena on the show. It would be doing itself a huge disservice to not pay that off (and pay it off right). I guess the same could be said about Daryl’s sex life too, but the way I see it, they do have to leave some aspects of their relationship open so they have something to explore in the spinoff. For me, hearing them say I love you and kissing for the first time in the main show and then navigating what it actually means to be in a relationship and how to approach physical intimacy in the spinoff is a fair compromise.