#retrospective or whatever

[a-moth-called-mof]

Me rambling about the fandom atmosphere during November 16th:

With November 16th hitting the corner, I thought now would be a good time to finally post this post that's been in my drafts forever

I genuinely am of the personal belief that November 16th is one of those things where you had to have been there to fully appreciate and experience it at least in my opinion. I feel like the tense atmosphere leading up to the actual event is something that is not widely talked about in the fandom. A brief reminder for the fans that are new here or that missed the stream where the November 16th War was announced: during stream C! Dream revealed that there was a traitor hiding amongst Pogtopia and said it was someone that you wouldn't expect. This one line lead to multiple fan theories going around the fandom ranging from plausible to very far fetched. The fandom turned into one big game of Among Us and EVERYONE was a suspect.

Here's an old post of my mine that I think does a good job showing the mentality of most fans going into November 16th:

There were so many theories and speculations leading up to it and you genuinely had to be there to see everyone's different theories about who the traitor would be and the couple aus I saw come out of it. It made it so that when the event did happen, no one in the fandom knew who trust and NEITHER DID THE CHARACTERS. It was amazing watching characters debate whether or not to trust eachother live. It made it feel like any discoveries or possible leads that were made were realised by the character and the fandom at the same time, especially love that one scene where C! Tubbo and C! Quackity decide they sort of trust eachother and talk about who they don't trust. I distinctly remembering switching between povs and watching the dashboard lose their shit and how current character mains would be like "OH [CHARACTER] IS ACTING SO SUSPICIOUS :0" or just liveblog whatever characters were doing and it was a really fun way of keeping up with most of the characters even if I couldn't physically watch all their povs at once

This is less about the atmosphere but more something I feel like people don't talk about enough: Phil wasn't on the Dream SMP before November 16th and we had no concrete indication he would be there. There were a lot of fan theories and headcanons about him joining and I remember seeing all the art of him joining on November 16th and at the time thinking "Oh that's really cool but I doubt they'll actually do it" SO I CAN'T DESCRIBE THE SHEER EMOTIONS I FELT WHEN HE JOINED?

I honestly still don't think I'll ever forget watching C! Wilbur press the button and watching everything go to shit at once after such a tense buildup. Whenever I tell my irl friends I once stayed up till 5am on a school night to watch a live minecraft roleplay event, most of them joke or express (VERY UNDERSTANDABLE) concern but I honestly don't regret a thing. I'd do it 30 times over just to experience that again and watch my dashboard go apeshit. November 16th will always be one of my favourite events in any media ever.

[quirkle2]

scenes that make me wanna eat drywall dust

[pillsopa]

truthfully he was pretty cool

og below >:)

it was begging to be redrawn

[thebramblewood]

Virtuous Vampires: Demetrius Troyer, Brandy Wood, Samantha Gratz

The good kind of goths, not the rip out your jugular vein kind of goths! Not only is drinking blood messy and immoral — it's just so passe.

[clownehonk]

quick thing of these two i did while watching Etho's first episode :]

[jackalspine]

Sigh. I might finally admit to myself that the Danny phantom boy is my blorbo 😔. Iove to draw that guy in situations

[weirdgrrlgerard]

Sadness As A Gift (Adrienne Lenker) / Karate Kid (1984) / Karate Kid pt II (1986) / Cobra Kai (2018-)

[piromina]

HELLO MIRACULOUS FANDOM

if u are part of the miraculous fandom PLS DO NOT SCROLL PAST THIS.

I'll try to keep this message short enough, but if you don't want to be really confused in season 6, READ THIS. (and yes there will be pictures)

Do you remember the episode Representation? Of course you do. It was probably one of the best episodes imo. We got some feligami, adrien fighting his father (only to end up in solitary confinement afterwards but forget that), and, of course, confirmation to a very popular fan theory.

HOWEVER. that fan theory is something I need to talk about.

Don't worry, yes, I still do believe that adrien, félix and kagami are all sentis, that is not what the purpose of this message is. Please keep reading.

do you remember him? yes. this is félix. impersonating his shitty father, colt. in this scene , 'colt' is using the peacock miraculous to create a son.

in this scene, the amok is very clearly going into the ring félix has on at all times.

But what, in the entire representation play, has not been shown once?

Émelie using the peacock. Émelie putting the amok into Adrien's rings. Émelie creating a son.

This play is Félix's story, not Adrien's.

Yes, adrien is a sentimonster, but that was never shown here once. Yes, there were peacock feathers in the background of Émelie being pregnant, and yes, Gabriel called Adrien a miracle.

But those were just hints for the audience.

In this scene, here is what 'Gabriel' was saying.

After much study, I have discovered a solution for you and your wife.

This is making it sound like he has just now discovered the peacock miraculous. We as the audience, of course, know that he's lying.

But who was this play meant for, other than us as the all-knowing viewers?

Marinette Dupain-Cheng. The only in-universe audience member. And let's not forget that this is her very first exposure to the Agreste and Graham de Vanily family history and the senti lore. She doesn't know what we do.

Marinette, upon hearing Gabriel's lie, had no reason to believe he or émelie used the peacock to create Adrien. Marinette, upon hearing Gabriel's lie, had no reason to believe that after Colt created félix, he stole back the peacock miraculous. Marinette, upon watching this play, had no reason to believe that Adrien is a sentimonster, or that the Graham de Vanily rings are significant in any way.

"But then why did she give them back to Adrien?" It's what would have made him happy. It's what Gabriel wanted. It's the last thing she could find in there that Gabriel owned. It's the last known piece of the Agreste family.

Marinette Dupain-Cheng has no reason to believe that Émelie used the peacock. In fact, Émelie only appears in this play four times, once as the curious princess, once living a bohemian life with the tailor, once being pregnant, and once giving birth.

And the Graham de Vanily rings? Only when her parents attached them to her necklace, and then as she was getting married! Marinette thinks those are just simple wedding bands, like her parents'!

And now, to recap, this is what everyone knows:

Us, the viewers:

Adrien, Félix, and Kagami are sentimonsters. Gabriel found the miraculous while in Tibet, along with the butterfly. Then, he gave it to Émelie, and she used it to create Adrien, putting the amok in the wedding bands. Afterwards, Gabriel gave the miraculous to Colt, who made Félix, as shown in the play. And, somehow, the peacock found its way over to Kagami's family (possibly her father?) who used it to create her, and put the amok in the ring she wears.

Marinette:

Félix is a sentimonster. Gabriel found the miraculous somewhere (probably Tibet, as that's where it was lost, possibly along with the butterfly). Then, he gave it to Colt in an act of sympathy (strange, those must have been nicer times), but of course not without making a trade. Afterwards, Colt used the peacock to create Félix, and then somehow Gabriel got it back and used it to become Shadowmoth.

Marinette doesn't know that Adrien is a sentimonster.

Reblog to spread the word.

[multishipper-baby]

The collab never ended up happening, so might as well post the Usagi I made for it on its own.

I wasn't sure what to do for her pose since you can't see her legs on the poster, so I just drew her sitting down idk.

[quibbs126]

could i get a mintrock fankid,if possible?

Okay so I feel like I went a bit off prompt, but here you go, I finally made her, this is Mint Toothpaste Cookie

Admittedly, maybe I could have given her a more occupational name instead of Mint Toothpaste, but I can’t think of one. Maybe I could come up with one in post, and if she has a different name, you know I changed it. I do at least have her character down, so

Anyways, Mint Toothpaste here is actually a scientist working at Astronaut’s agency (I don’t remember the specific NASA pun and right now I’m too lazy to look it up), and she specifically works with the Xylitolians, trying to learn and integrate their technology with their own. She’s also a bit of a fan of their fashion sense and has altered her outfit to more resemble theirs

Okay I know this angle is completely out of nowhere for a mintrock kid, but let me explain. The idea was based on her being made of toothpaste, and wanting to incorporate that into her character. Originally my idea was to maybe go a dentist route, though it felt a bit boring to me. Then I remembered Planet Xylitol also has a dentist/teeth theme, so I decided to use that concept and say that they’re connected

Also, I couldn’t think of anything interesting/something I liked that had to do with Mint Choco or Rockstar’s music angles. All I could think of was basically just going into a different genre of music, and that felt incredibly boring, so why not go in this sci fi route? In retrospect maybe I could have found something to ground her more to normalcy, but screw it

I don’t really know how she came to the scientist conclusion in her life, but shut up, she just did, don’t ask questions. Maybe it was Pink Choco

She does however still have music in her life, it’s just more of a hobby than a lifestyle. She is in fact, an accordion enjoyer and player (though I’m realizing it doesn’t look super good in that sketch now). She also enjoys music from video games she plays, and will sometimes play some of those songs on her accordion. She’s not the biggest strings fan, which is somewhat disappointing to her parents, but at least they didn’t have to compete over whether she would like the violin or guitar more (she thinks they’re just okay)

She’s a bit of a know it all, and while she does good at her job, and the Xylitolians like her, outside of work she kind of lets her job of integrating with an alien culture, being part of intergalactic history, go to her head. She’s sort of become that person who’s annoying after coming back from a study abroad (or so I’ve heard that’s a thing, I haven’t experienced that yet. Or maybe that was me with Britain last year), except she never left to go there and isn’t planning on ending her communication with them. Hopefully she gets better

And yeah, on to the design

So I called her Mint Toothpaste because it’s mint, and I like to imagine Rockstar as being made of shaving cream, and thus I like to imagine his kids not really having the most normal flavors. I didn’t really do that previously, but I did here. I believe the original name was going to be Mint Sauce

Mint toothpaste:

One thing I will say right off the bat, I’m sad that I couldn’t make her hair look as good as it did in the sketch. I tweaked it enough so it doesn’t look horrible, but in my opinion it looks much better in the sketch

But anyways, so her design was mainly based off of the Xylitol NPCs, since she was going to be connected to them. I actually didn’t decide until late whether or not she was living with them or working remotely, but regardless it’s a way to tie them in together. Though I also put in some Mint Choco flair with the coattails so she had something to separate them

I’ll admit right now, I don’t think she looks a lot like Rockstar, at least in the outfit. I used his jacket color in the accents, and she has his eye color, but I don’t know. Or maybe I only think that way because a lot of her colors come from Mint Choco

Also the little triangle in her top part of her suit is supposed to look like Rockstar’s necklace. It was just added to make her have a bit more to do with Rockstar, but I think it looks good on her

Honestly, I actually quite like how her design turned out. Yeah it’s not the most complex, it works with what she’s trying to do, and I think I did better than last time

And yeah, that’s it for Mint Toothpaste. I hope you like her!

[misterradio]

[sammygender]

of genderswapped sam and dean. who has the short haircut.

THE REAL QUESTION. i could see a case for either. short hair is probably more convenient for hunting after all....

i think dean wears her hair long as a kid because it reminds john of mary. you could make the case that he'd cut her hair because it reminds him of mary too much, but i can't see it really, i think he'd want to preserve the innocence he sees in girlhood that he doesnt seem to in boyhood (a la that whole journal entry about wishing he had girls and how sons have to be soliders). continuing that, i cant actually really see her cutting her hair short at all because it ties her to her mother in her eyes. i think girl dean is like so obsessed with mary. can you imagine like. her whole life is about avenging mary and she's her daughter and the only girl in the family now. she has no adult female role models except her dead mother. she plays into being john (still loves cars and classic rock and wears flannel and leather jackets and is generally 'masculine') but she still sees herself as mary. john sees her as mary too even though he expects her to act exactly like him also. so i think she keeps her hair long. she probably has childhood memories of mary brushing it and wants to hold onto them. i think she likes it long, and i think john likes it long, and i think it reminds them both of mary, and i think they both like that.

sam? well sam is a lot less invested in playing the Role that's expected of him, so. girl sam is victim to levels of misogyny previously unthought of especially in the way where both john and dean see her as soooo weak and little and in need of protection. and they probably rely on the girl thing a lot to infantilise her. so i can totally see her cutting her hair off in a Fuck You to john at some point. tbh i reckon girl sam would have hair like canon sam's later season hair. though rly i can see anything with sam. also i feel like she'd have grown up with a shortish bob because it's easier maintenance (for dean john winchester is NOT bothered with looking after sams hair <3)

also both of those answers are in an au where one of them's raised a girl and the other isn't. but if we're talking total femchesters? john having two daughters? need to think on this more but im still leaning towards sam. i think girl dean commits to being a Girl the same way canon dean commits to being a Guy, even though both of them are shrouded in the same machismo. but sam fights any role hes given

tldr: sam

[cnl0400]

Diavolo knowing how to code is so charming to me... Do you think this guy knows assembly???

[batsplat]

“So funny how again in early 2008 there’s an argument to me made that Valentino was the LEAST annoyed with him of the four” ooh what was the Casey / Jorge beef of 08?? I didn’t think those two had any!! Actually would you be willing to go thru all the Jorge beefs of that year briefly? Ik you’ve done him & Dovi and him & Vale a lot more in depth but I’m curious about Casey and Dani…ik some of the Dani stuff but I don’t really get the WHY of it hahaha

okay I've started and gotten stuck on writing a post about casey and jorge's relationship way too often by this point BUT if we're just localising it to early 2008 that's WAY more doable. jorge lorenzo early 2008 drama corner coming right up

Some people think he's - not a show off, but he's a little bit arrogant. Actually he's a really nice guy, isn't he, he needs that bit of arrogance because - when you're on the edge as he is, that's what makes him the champion, the way he is.

^Qatar 2008 commentary excerpt

just as a quick summary of the time span we're talking about. casey is the defending champion, looks scary good pre-season testing, but ducati gets a bit lost after the opening round and he has some pretty messy races. valentino has made the very very high-profile controversial decision to walk away from the tyre manufacturer that had bagged him all his premier class titles and move to casey's bridgestones, which is what necessitates the wall in the yamaha garage. if this goes wrong, if he just loses to his rivals purely on merit, it might actually be over for him. dani was the bloke who was supposed to have casey's 2007 season on the lighter 800cc bikes everyone believed would favour him, and now has something to prove. jorge and dovi are both rookies in the class, having fought it out for two years in the 250cc class. jorge won both titles, albeit on clearly superior machinery to dovi's

here's the opening few rounds (though most of this will be just about the first four):

jorge secures the first three pole positions of the season and wins his first race in estoril. after three rounds, him and dani are exactly tied in the standings - not just in points, but also in countback since they've both had a p1, a p2, and a p3. valentino had a meh first race at qatar after leading at one point, AND is overtaken on the final lap by dovi... but gradually makes progress with the tyres - and by shanghai, everything's clicked. by contrast, jorge's fortunes take a nosedive in shanghai, with a truly massive highside during practise. he rallies and manages to take a fourth in shanghai and a second in le mans (this is the podium where he's on crutches and valentino ends up sitting on his lap for the podium photo)... but after that things go from bad to worse as he has a series of painful, demoralising and confidence-sapping crashes, including one that forces him to withdraw entirely from his home race at catalunya. by this point, he is firmly out of the title hunt - and catalunya is also the race where the season swings back in casey's favour, with the post-race test doing wonders for the ducati. which is where the build-up to laguna starts in earnest

so! with all that context in mind! here's some photos from pre-season at jerez:

I'm sure the photographers just missed the extensive discussions valentino was having with jorge sitting next to him

right then. let's take them in order. jorge/valentino had quite a bit of attached hype to it, where people looked at jorge, looked at valentino, rubbed their hands and went 'surely this isn't going to go well'. (this would've been me.) this energy, right:

This was all done, of course, because Yamaha were fearing, and MotoGP fans were looking forward to, a potential clash between Lorenzo and his team mate, the equally flamboyant Valentino Rossi. But so far, all has been peace and light in the Yamaha garage, a situation possibly helped by the huge wall splitting the garage in two.

(just to give you a sense of how keen everyone was to get things kicked off between those two, the commentators are talking about valentino edging ahead of jorge on the sighting lap of qatar 2008 to take his grid slot first as "just a bit of psychology". like people were ready for these two to go to war)

and there's plenty of evidence that suggests valentino took an immediate disliking to jorge that went beyond just seeing him as internal competition. it's quite likely valentino tried to keep him out of the factory yamaha team, though probably less nefarious plotting and more 'asking yamaha to please not do it'. once he lost that particular war, however, valentino's approach was mostly just not to engage with jorge at all. no stress, no drama, limit both his levels of personal irritation and jorge's opportunities to learn from him. early 2008 valentino also had very 'we move in silence' energy, he's really just working away at getting to grips with the tyres and generating little drama of his own accord. doesn't panic at the adjustment period to the bridgestones or about how his rookie teammate seems to have the better of him in the early rounds... it's obvious by his reaction to winning the race at shanghai how much this meant to him, but he's mostly been shutting up and getting on with it. and while jorge was going on his little drama tour, he was actually at pains not to be publicly starting shit with valentino:

Lorenzo was much kinder to the man he was expected to be at war with. “I see the press and hear what people say, and they have already decided to bury him,” said Lorenzo. “He finished 5th on tires which, apparently, weren’t going very well in the conditions. I think he will be fighting for the win at Jerez, and will be winning races soon enough. I don’t believe that he has dropped his game.”

though obviously valentino won't have been particularly thrilled by jorge getting a win before he did - and I suspect jorge did secretly think he might already have the better of his legendary teammate... way more on that teammate dynamic here, including context for the dynamic headed into 2008

^Post-Estoril 2008

tbh the vibe you get from watching 2008 is that valentino wasn't really thinking about jorge all that much, even during the first few races of the season. if anything, his delight at jerez and estoril kinda makes you feel like he was still primarily preoccupied with casey's results. as long as he felt like he was making progress on the tyres and casey wasn't building up an unassailable points lead, everything else could work itself out

Some say there's bad blood between them, they both say they get on fine together - I've seen them chatting in press conferences all right, but I think there is a little bit of needle between the two of them.

^Qatar 2008 commentary excerpt

moving on. jorge/dovi didn't have anything specific early 2008, but I just sort of assume dovi had this constant low level of annoyance towards jorge - especially immediately off the back of two title fights. he beats out valentino in this list by having had more actual encounters with jorge and more time to build up genuine antipathy. reading between the lines for their dynamic that year... well, they were competing to be the best rookie in the class - and you could argue that contest was way closer than it had any right to be, given the disparity in machinery. jorge the chosen boy on a factory yamaha, dovi scrapping it out on a satellite honda (interestingly, the disparity is described here as lesser than what they had in 250cc). also, fun fact: jorge's first race crash in motogp comes when he's fighting dovi at mugello. dovi had a front row seat, wonder if he enjoyed that

on to casey/jorge. so, I'm going to present these tidbits in a sensible chronological fashion, but I just want to say that I came across them in a completely different order. very different experience. I read casey's autobiography early enough in my motogp journey that I just sort of took him at his word with way too much of what he was saying. so my initial reaction to the early 2008 jorge stuff was going 'lol jorge what a prat' and going about my business. anyways. just thought I'd mention that!

anyhow, obviously these two had already had a few run-ins in the lower categories, including that assen 2004 incident where jorge kinda runs casey off track during the last lap that casey did not take kindly to. AND perhaps the first record we've got of valentino acknowledging casey and jorge's existence!! really fond of that clip idk, something about his 'those crazy kids' energy obviously is a bit ironic with benefit of hindsight

moving on to 2008. here's casey on jorge's chances of making an immediate impact, around a week before qatar:

Ducati’s Casey Stoner, who won 10 races in a dominant 2007 season, said: “We’ll have to see what happens with Jorge. “He has proven himself very fast in 250s by being double world champion. He is obviously a very fast rider and he is learning very quickly with the Yamaha. “But I think it is also very, very difficult to beat what Dani did in his first race in MotoGP. “To finish second in your first race is truly amazing, so I think it is very difficult.”

nothing egregious, I think we can all agree. though the direct comparison with dani probably won't have been particularly welcome. but just keep this in mind when you read the next few bits!

and here, from the qatar 2008 commentary:

And Stoner actually talked about Lorenzo, didn't he, in the pre-event conference - saying, I'm not sure Lorenzo will be able to challenge for the title. He may change his opinion about that after seeing the race here today, but he felt the challenge was more from Rossi and Dani Pedrosa.

ended up being correct, but did he HAVE to say it... aged poorly for the first month or so, you'd have to say. knowing jorge, I don't feel like it's a stretch to say he was motivaed to prove casey wrong lol

as we've already established from this clip, unlike dani and jorge they were at least on speaking terms at jerez

^Jerez 2008 pre-event press conference

casey has a messy pair of races at jerez and estoril, which brings us to shanghai - where, as said at the top, jorge and dani were joint championship leaders. let's bring in a press conference clip!

The season started in Qatar. [...] points - anyway, the riders that do not have good results, they say it starts now. The riders that started good... say that, what I am saying, so... For sure for Casey, starts now.

oh no. jorge. oh you've really done it now. off-hand remark right at the end... bit of hesitation but he just can't help himself. you CANNOT say something like that about casey. he will literally never forget this

and luckily, we know that casey would never forget this - because this incident makes it all the way to his autobiography! here we go:

Despite my first impressions of Jorge in the 125ccs I got on pretty well with him during our days together in the 250cc class but after winning the World Championship in that category twice he seemed to me to have become arrogant beyond belief. I remember after Estoril he said something to Livio like, 'What happened to Stoner? A problem with the head?' He seemed to think he'd broken me in that race and that I was weak minded. He thought his success was the reason for my poor results and clearly had no idea about the problems we had with the camera, not to mention the bike. A couple of weeks later we were in the pre-event conference in Shanghai and Jorge made a smart remark like, 'Maybe the championship starts now for Stoner.' I couldn't believe it and I'd never known such arrogance before. But what Jorge didn't realise at the time was that his confidence, generated by his impressively fast adjustment to riding a MotoGP bike, was a big reason he was so quick in those early races. Confidence is an incredibly powerful tool in elite level sport but it can also be very dangerous, especially in motorcycle racing. He hadn't learnt that yet, but he would.

okay. so. obviously jorge had managed to accidentally stumble across the number one way to get under casey's skin - by implying he was mentally weak. pretty much the worst thing you can say about casey, like yeah you've found the thing he's most sensitive about. congrats. and the shanghai remark was probably not a good idea. but if you watch that clip... I mean. it's a dumb throwaway line isn't it. this is a dumb twenty year old being a bit of a brat. high on his own success in his first few races in the premier class. now just picture casey sitting next to him, thinking that he'd NEVER KNOWN SUCH ARROGANCE BEFORE. casey, he's a rookie, you're the defending champion. and you said he probably wasn't going to be able to compete with you!! HE probably thinks YOU started it

^Shanghai 2008 pre-event press conference

and as it happens, casey doesn't stop there. because this story is what prompts a couple more paragraphs on casey's feelings on the subject of confidence in motorcycle racing, essentially using jorge's rookie season as a case study of sorts into how it can all go wrong. here's how it continues:

When a rider starts to build confidence they push the limits of the bike further and further until they find speed they thought they never had, speed that other riders find it impossible to live with. It is a fine line though. The problem is that as the level of confidence continues to increase so does the level of risk and before a rider knows it he is past the limit. Sooner or later reality bites and in motorcycle racing it bites hard. This is why I am careful to be a realist. If I know I have the tool to get the job done then I can be confident, but I am careful never to ride on confidence alone. Unfortunately for Jorge, just 48 hours after he made those remarks in China it became clear he was in over his head, literally, and he suffered one of the biggest crashes I have ever seen. In the split second he hit the ground and fractured both of his ankles he also shattered the one thing that had taken him to the top of the championship. Once his confidence was gone he had nothing left to fall back on and he couldn't have copped any more of a beating than he did that season. He had crash after crash, bringing him back to earth so hard that he seemed to become scared of the bike. For a while his results were pretty ordinary, considering the equipment he was on.

... okay. I get that they're competitors, and I get that you probably get quite desensitised to crashes if you're a motogp rider. but. uh. this does read... just a wee bit satisfied that jorge had been brought 'back to earth' by way of a series of very very nasty crashes. "clear he was in over his head, LITERALLY" is such a wild way to describe a horrendous highside. you do get just a tinge of schadenfreude about the whole thing, right. slight vibe that casey thought karmic justice had come for jorge after he'd been so arrogant towards casey

should be noted that in the next autobiography passage, casey is quite nice about jorge and essentially said he'd learned from his mistakes and become more pleasant later - plus that casey felt they were both misunderstood in different ways. given all that, though, it is interesting and fun that casey in no way backs down from his initial impression of jorge's behaviour (or if this is him backing down, it's still pretty harsh). you agree he gets misunderstood, you know he was a bit of a mess back then, but you're STILL talking about him like this! never known such arrogance before uh huh

there's also one specific story I'm choosing to leave out here beyond a brief mention - because it is pretty nasty and I'm not sure it entirely passes my own standard of evidence for a story like that. the sparknotes version is that a commentator said casey told him jorge was faking the extent of his shanghai injuries in rather forthright a manner. not out of the realm of possibility given we know casey was pissed at jorge that weekend, we know casey spoke to that commentator that weekend, and we know casey can be a bit weird about his competitors' injuries. but yeah, idk, it's so completely anecdotal that I'm not going to properly include it

and here, just to round things off, is what casey said about jorge before the le mans round:

Stoner, who raced Lorenzo previously in the 125 class, said: “I’ve been racing against the rookies for years, I know they are fast. “There is a lot testing compared to the past so when you arrive at the first race you’ve already done half a season so if they are not comfortable with the bikes by then there is something wrong. Jorge has done a good job so far but I expected this.”

did you expect this?? DID YOU EXPECT THIS?? going from saying 'yeah idk jorge probably won't be able to do what dani did' to saying 'well if he WASN'T fast already then there'd be something WRONG with him' is just classic stuff. never change, casey

on jorge's end, my sense is that he really wasn't thinking all that much about casey pre circa 2010. this is just a vibe, but I kinda feel like jorge's tell for when he doesn't really know what to make of someone is when he doesn't really talk about them all that much... including in that biography of his - where casey features comically little, given how he is like. the defending champion during jorge's rookie season. dovi gets mentioned a reasonable amount given he's kinda unavoidable, but both him and casey massively lose out when compared to dani and valentino. those latter two have Designated Roles in the jorge lorenzo story, whereas jorge just... doesn't know what to do with dovi and casey

an impression I feel is backed up by how jorge frames his viewing experience of the 2008 catalunya race in the biography

 Having watched the race from my room I would like to congratulate Dani Pedrosa for a great race. He rode the best from the start and had a perfect race. I also thought it was a nice touch that Dani showed his support for the anti-guardrail campaign. I had also planned to support the initiative because it is a great cause. Valentino also deserves congratulations for such a great fight back. I’m keen to fight for victory with both of them and if I manage to beat them one day, ‘mano a mano’, I will feel very proud. The pair of them are as different as they are difficult to beat.

who. who was valentino fighting for that second place. who was he fighting for basically the entire race in a repeat of their dramatic duel the previous year. who was the third person on that podium, jorge. who was the defending champion when you were watching that race. jorge. WHO WAS IT

that being said, we do get one short bit in jorge's biography about his early impressions of casey. and it's just too good not to include here:

'The first time I saw Stoner was in the CEV, back in 2000,' recalls Jorge. 'We looked down the entry list and spotted this really young Australian, riding a Honda. Since there were two groups we were able to take a look at him from the control tower at Albacete. He was really fast but at the same time he looked out of control. He was running wide but he kept on the throttle, giving it full gas, the bike swerving all over the place. He is aggressive, very brave and extremely talented, and he rides without fear of crashing. Having said that I think he could get a little more out of what he is doing if he was a bit more lively - if he was more in touch with the fans. He's like Doohan in that respect, but he's happy that way and each to his own, I guess.'

young jorge looking at young casey and going ?? why isn't he working to build his CHARACTER to appeal to the FANS ?? is just so beautifully in-character for both of them

anyway, yeah, that was their early 2008 vibe. jorge being kinda confused by casey but also wanting to prove himself against the defending champion - not as much as he did against dani and valentino, but he was way warier of starting shit with valentino and would never ever have said something like the shanghai thing about him. and casey with plenty of resentment in his heart, maybe chafing at jorge's golden boy status and how everyone was falling over themselves to praise jorge, consistently reserved in his own assessment of jorge - first downplaying his chances and then suggesting jorge had basically been doing the bare minimum. it's pretty likely that jorge would not remember that shanghai press remark if you asked him about it today, but there is absolutely zero chance casey doesn't. and for all that their later relationship considerably warmed later on, in part due to a shared antipathy towards valentino, that's not the kind of thing casey ever quite forgets

MOVING ON to the big guns. now, look, we're not going to get into a full history of the dani/jorge rivalry, it'd take way too long. here is another jorge biography excerpt about the early bitchiness in 2005, you've got stuff in this post about how the rivalry fit into the context of the puig/amatriain rivalry, dani also featured heavily in the motegi 2005 controversy, plus there's that time in early 2006 when mr zero world championships said "I am better than pedrosa and time will judge if I am right or not" and "maybe my rivals are a little scared of me". again, this isn't a full chronology, but they already obviously disliked each other headed into 2008

it's this dynamic of two young athletes vying for the love of their nation... with dani reserved and businesslike and very much influenced by his mentor puig (see also the puig description in this post), coming up against jorge in all his loud-mouthed brashness who is gagging for attention from anyone willing to provide it. the worst thing dani could do was ignore jorge, which is what he was always inclined to do... and jorge unsurprisingly never reacted well

In fact, the constant comparisons with Pedrosa had occasionally got to him. 'Why does Dani Pedrosa, with his boy next door image, get such good press yet I don't?' he'd asked Miguel Angel Violan. 'He used to hate that,' remembers Violan. Juanito Llansa has his own views on the matter. 'Jorge and Dani Pedrosa are completely different. They are poles apart. Dani is cold, impassive, while Jorge is vivacious, sometimes too extroverted. The thing is that Pedrosa started winning before Jorge did and we [Spain] had been going through something of a drought in terms of titles, so people had started watching motorcycle racing again because of Pedrosa. Naturally, the fans had taken to Dani more. When Jorge emerged on the scene, and started winning too, people had got used to Dani's character and thought that Jorge was too cocky. But that's just the way he is! The fans already had their hero, but then somebody totally different came along. Now the fans had to be shared out between the two.'

^Excerpt from Riveras Tobia's 'Jorge Lorenzo: My Story So Far'

'boy next door image' hm

which is how we get to early 2008, where jorge starts off his premier class career by securing pole position. and then follows that up by beating (an injured) dani to second place in the race. at which point dani commits the grievous insult of not shaking jorge's hand (x)

So it came as no surprise that Lorenzo fanned the flames of old divisions this week, complaining bitterly to the Spanish daily AS.com that Pedrosa refused to congratulate him on the podium at Qatar. “I have no interest in causing controversy,” the Spaniard told AS.com, without a hint of irony, “but if I see something that’s wrong, I say it publicly, without hesitation. I don’t like the fact that he didn’t congratulate me, but each man must do what he thinks is right. If I’d been in his place, I would have congratulated a rider who had managed to finish in 2nd place in his first race. But then, I’m not Dani Pedrosa.”

'without a hint of irony' lol get him again

and here from the biography:

ER: Jorge, you were on the podium with Dani Pedrosa. Did you say anything to each other? Did you shake hands? JL: In Qatar everybody who saw me on the track - mechanics, riders and race officials - congratulated me on my performance. But Dani Pedrosa didn't. He didn't say a word to me, didn't look my way, didn't congratulate me. He didn't even wave or hold his hand out at the end of the race. ER: And do you think he was supposed to be congratulating you and not the other way round? JL: When somebody finishes their first MotoGP race on the podium, the least he can expect is a wave. I'm not talking about friendship, just a simple raised hand. It's a question of good manners. Everybody is responsible for what they say and do. If I was him I'd have been congratulating a rookie who finished second. Dani Pedrosa disappointed me.

dani DISAPPOINTED jorge :((

which is how you get to jerez 2008, second race of the season, and ofc the presser from which this clip stems

^Jerez 2008 pre-event press conference

by which point the qatar handshake thing had obviously become a big controversy. here, again from the biography:

A mere handshake had become a matter of national debate. Everybody had an opinion on the subject — and since Lorenzo was the only one prepared to speak publicly about it, with Pedrosa opting to state his case silently, Jorge bore the brunt of the pressure. Even members of his own team were telling, him to take the sting out of the situation as soon as possible, 'it always seemed that it had to be him who took the first step,' says Javi Ullate. 'I also made the mistake of thinking that it was down to him to sort it out. It was another unnecessary problem. It was a ridiculous situation, that wasn't getting anybody anywhere. I asked myself, if rivals can't greet each other, then how is it that Pedrosa can greet other riders? He is civil with Rossi and Stoner, but not with Lorenzo. 

all this over a HANDSHAKE mind u

jorge once again secured pole position at jerez - but this time dani took the win well ahead of jorge, whose expected race pace had failed to materialise. jorge ended up finishing third behind valentino

which was obviously followed by the infamous moment where the spanish king forces the two of them to shake hands:

really fond of dani looking at his hand like it doesn't belong to him while jorge sucks at his lollipop

the pair of them have obviously discussed this moment in a great amount of detail since, which we're not going to cover in full. but just to give something closer to the time, here's more from jorge's biography:

'Yeah I'd do it again because I believe that it gives off a bad image when two riders from the same country, representing millions of people, can't get on. Trying to shake hands with Pedrosa isn't a bad thing. It is a good thing, for the sport and for the country. At the time I thought it was pretty unpleasant that he didn't want to shake my hand but it's not the biggest worry in my life. I would like our relationship to be cordial because we're both putting our lives at risk on the track, we're battling fairing to fairing and yes, it is good that there's a rivalry on the track, but off it we should be presenting a picture of the good sportsmen that we are. '

he goes on like this at length. SO committed to the image of it all, to being honourable, respectful competitors... he wants blood in his rivalry but also DIGNITY, man-to-man taking each other on in the heat of battle... again, a dozen films playing in his head, all of which are of extremely little interest to his irritable rivals

anyhow, it's a podium with fun awkward vibes. you've got dani and valentino palling around:

and jorge and dani existing in each other's vicinity:

just continually refusing to acknowledge in each other's presence

which gives us what I find a tragically ignored funny dani moment where he like?? visibly seems uncomfortable with the idea that he's only got jorge close to him before the podium photo, looks over to valentino (currently engaged in extensive shenanigans with the nearest camera), beckons him over, eyes fully glued on him as he makes it to the top step of the podium, leaves precisely fuck all space for jorge, at which point jorge physically pushes dani to the side a bit so that he can stand on the podium without in any way standing close to dani

I'm sorry but this is comical. why does nobody ever talk about this. what are they doing

and lastly we get to estoril, the final race before jorge goes on his injury spree. as stated up front, it's jorge's first win, leaving him tied with dani at the top of the standings. there's not any real CONTROVERSY here beyond the continuation of the general wretched vibes. this time it's dani who looks like he's been force fed half a dozen lemons while jorge is enjoying life to the fullest

and valentino remains proudly committed to Just Vibing

but this race had to get a mention primarily for the follow-up to the jerez podium photo. where valentino is once again the last to stop faffing about, which unfortunately leaves him in a bit of an awkward position when he realises jorge and dani are standing like. a metre apart. and just ends up having to get very close to jorge to make it work. which gives us a very evenly placed podium photo

the beauties of third-wheeling a feud. finally valentino too gets to experience having to navigate two people who loathe each other

anyway! that's your lot. one little baby rookie who has many of his rivals wanting to strangle him after four race weekends. 'flamboyant' 'arrogant' whatever you want to call him... but. y'know. I am obviously a little bit of a jorge lorenzo defender for this time period, and not just because I feel very strongly that he needed a responsible adult in his life and maybe also a hug. dani could have shaken his hand!! casey could have been a bit more chill!! valentino could have spoken more than two words to him!! but that's the fun of it... jorge was annoying, so were his rivals, what a great constellation of irritating blokes. just this little brat rocking up to the premier class and immediately making an impact by pissing off everyone around him. really spiced up the early 2008 season too, gave everyone something to talk about before valentino got back into the plotting and scheming business. we thank jorge for his service

[vinelark]

I failed to submit multiple homework assignments because I spent my midnight study time reading bbts instead. And you know what? Completely worth it, have a croissant.

✨🥐✨

Genuinely saved my day when I felt terrible on multiple occasions, I appreciate you so much.

hell yeah! i’m a homework hater (as in, hater of the concept of it on principle) so i support you doing something fun instead of a few assignments.

and i’m so glad it has brightened your day ❤️

[vickyvicarious]

Poor girl, she has so much to forget that it is no wonder that sleep, if it brings oblivion to her, does her good.

Oblivion being brought to her sounds deeply ominous right now, especially given the context of Mina being so tired and subdued lately. But on the other hand, noon is the other time when Dracula can change shape or be more active, and if she is not in a state of oblivion I have to wonder what kind of experience her mental link is giving her. It may of course only seem a dream...