#rape is bad

[timetobeaghost]

anti-Semitism is disgusting but Islamophobia isn't either and you clearly show some Islamophobic vibes so clearly stop being a hypocrite and say you don't care about Palestinians. You want them all dead and that's why you support Israel and deny everything it does to Palestinians. You aren't the one who should choose to forgive or not Noah cause you aren't the one he offended: you aren't Arab , you aren't Muslim and you aren't Palestinians.

No Arab, Muslim or Palestinian has any right to tell Noah how to feel about the brutal slaughter of Israelis by PALESTINIANS. Jesus.

I do not forgive Noah, because he hasn't done anything. Period.

I don't want any innocent Palestinians dead, but definitely every terrorist. Those fuckers are trying to get as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible as a mean to harm Israel, steal all their aids/food, just boycotted ceasefire talks again. Obviously they want all the Jews dead, but that is just their stated goal.

You try to defend those evil fucks and blame Israel for being attacked. Now that is an offensive opinion.

[ernestbruce]

rapists must go to prison for at least eighteen years

AND the victim must, Must, MUST have the option of aborting the fruit of their crime

RAPE IS NOT A FORM OF ACCEPTABLE HUMAN REPRODUCTION

IT. JUST. ISNT.

[triviallytrue]

Wild that there's still a lot of discourse about whether or not Hamas did this or that atrocity on Oct 7 - if Hamas did everything they were accused of, it still wouldn't be okay for Israel to kill tons of unrelated Palestinians, and if Hamas did nothing besides kidnap around 150 people and murder hundreds of civilians, this would still not be okay

[dykedvonte]

You ever just see a Mouthwashing take that makes you want to bang your head into a wall? I literally just saw someone claim Curly couldn't have been emotionally abused by Jimmy before the crash because he was in a higher position of power than Jimmy.

-Shrimp Anon

The mouthwashing fandom has shown me that people genuinely do believe that certain types of abuse are not as detrimental as other types especially when they deem those immune/resistant, ergo, believing one is objectively worse no matter how it affects the person nor the intersections of power, history and dynamics at play.

Get ready cause this is a yap session:

Cause like it's heavily implied that Curly and Jimmy's friendship was toxic and abusive, pointedly in the direction of how Jimmy uses Curly's belief/comfort in him. Curly wasn't forced to enable Jimmy but he was emotional and mentally on edge around him in almost every scene in some way. Mental and emotional abuse are not contingent on what positions you have at work. Yeah, he's Jimmy's boss but he was Jimmy's friend first and it's like getting into Psych discussion to talk about how social power tends to overshadow any perceived organizational power in the human mind. People are concerned about their jobs ofc but they tend to hang onto and put more value/investment into their personal relationships, hence why there tends to be laws and restrictions around mixing the two.

I always see the sentiments that "Curly is a grown ass man", "Curly is bigger than Jimmy", "Curly is Jimmy's boss", "He just needed a backbone" as criticisms of Curly and while I do agree that on the surface level all of these to be true and viable ways Curly could've taken more control of the situation, I often look at the parallels of Anya and Curly as victims of Jimmy pre/post crash.

The way Jimmy talks to Anya post crash is how he talked to Curly in the pre-crash segments. It's hard to pin-point mainly because we know he hates and wants nothing to do with Anya compared to his contrary but similarly handled obsessions with Curly. It's a weird sort of "honey-moon" effect of abuse Jimmy does in terms of emotional and mental victimization. He is always horrid to Anya, always talking down or questioning her abilities and thoughts in a situation, this of course includes the harassment and assault. However, he has a moment of attempted gentleness/conditioning when he question her about the mouthwash when she's contemplating drinking it at the table. The key difference is he has no personal investment in Jimmy outside wanting nothing to do with him, meaning there is no sort of romanticized version of him that he can condition her off of. He knows this, hence, why he always reverts to trying to make her to scared to oppose him.

This sort of give and take of "kindness" doesn't work on her because she knows he is just doing it to take more from her than whatever he could possibly give but it reflects even the "softer" scenes between him and Curly where he always rewords or rephrases Curly's sentiments and concerns to sound more shallow. He is feigning a deeper understanding by reworking Curly's emotions into something bad and needing to be hidden. Everything is laced with envy and resentment, an outburst just around the corner, I mean he even slams the table in the birthday party scene, a tactic in emotional manipulation to set the victim on edge and cloud their ability to respond. Even if Curly knows Jimmy won't get physical in that moment, the physical actions is intended to make him back down in the confrontation in case it does. This is something that is just not person specific. It ingrains itself into how you interact with the world and life and it shows in major and minor ways with Curly.

Post-crash, the abusive nature is more in tandem to the physical victimization Anya went through and the stripping of voice and autonomy we see take place. Like the parasite in HFIM, Jimmy speaks for Curly most of the time and puts words in his mouth, similarly to how he takes Anya's plans as his own. He very commonly, with the both of them mind you, supplements the worst aspects of himself into them; pettiness, selfishness, lack of understanding... And tries to cover himself with their best qualities; kindness, planning, initiative, etc...

These parallel are just to say that positional power has little to do with if a person can be abused and how it can even be flipped to further the abuse. There is no doubt that Curly could've picked up on Jimmy's envy of his position hence another reason he never confronted him as a Captain but as a friend as doing so would immediately put Jimmy in a space to be confrontational/combative.

I think the disdain some people have when they talk about the heavily implied if not implicitly stated emotional/mental abuse Curly experienced being Jimmy's friend is when treating it as an excuse to why he didn't do more. I can understand that completely because it is not an excuse to why he didn't do more but is a very real reason people in his position in these scenarios can experience whether in the context of a work or social environment. However, I also think the way people talk about it really does demonstrate a bigger problem when talking about abuse when somehow who is/was abused is either part of the issue or enabled it.

Harkening back to the sentiments about Curly's inaction regarding Jimmy, I think the exact phrases I used/have seen show how there is an inherent belief that it is easier to overpower the effects of emotional/mental abuse that go in tandem with the perception of Curly as someone who should be able to. There is not an age you suddenly stop being susceptible to abuse nor a set point or low where you realize how it has affected you. You don't suddenly know to stand up or put a face on to face your abuser nor admit that you inadvertently enabled them to subjugate someone else to the same treatment. Maybe it's my psych brain but their is this growing belief that direct action is somehow easy or always the best method with the game shows you instances where it is not always the case. In real life that rings true too. He should have done more, but it's not impossible to see why he struggled to find a way or didn't even if it makes us mad.

It's not easy to suddenly gain a "back-bone". You don't immediately want to resort to aggression, especially if it mirrors the type you were a victim to. You don't want to believe you allowed yourself to be treated this bad, let it get that bad or allowed something bad to happen to someone else. It is easy to be in denial, to retreat to your thoughts or make excuses to avoid the painful truth. It's frustrating but in a way we know is relatable. It why we both hate and love Curly for it. We know we'd be better, we think we'd be better, we like to think we wouldn't falter in the same ways but it's always easier to say that from the outside looking in. It's easy to see what he was doing wrong because we are seeing it, not him, but the game really does make you picture what you would do if this was your raw reality and it's why this debate about Curly seems so never ending/contradictory. We can all say what we'd do but bottom line is that's much different when you're in the moment with all the emotions and human feelings attached.

I personally think Mouthwashing tackles the themes of rape culture, enabling, toxic masculinity, types of abuse and patriarchy in ways that are meant to deconstruct the typical straightforward views we mostly have of these concepts and how little subtilities of them are just as, if not more, detrimental than the overt/obvious parts. The game deals with the idea of little details and bigger picture in a way to show that sometimes the bigger picture is not the issue but the little details that make it up. It's why I have a personal dislike of depictions of Jimmy as the typical horrible person who would of course do something like this because the game is about noticing the little warning signs, the foreshadowing and foresight.

It's why I dislike the typical discussion of "bro code" and "boys will be boys" for the game because the game makes a point to avoid the standard depictions of such. It is about the type of men who still enable despite not condoning, agreeing or even perpetuating harmful beliefs because they can't see the little details or the ways it seeps into their everyday. The severity is not obvious to them as it was not obvious to Curly, Swansea or even Daisuke the way it was to a woman like Anya. There are little details about Jimmy that should ring alarms but if you are too naive like Daisuke, too distant like Swansea or too conditioned like Curly, they are just off markers.

There is 100% more constructive/concise ways to say "Curly was a victim of Jimmy's abuse on an emotional and mental aspect that clouded his judgements and perceptions in the scenario" while also critiquing on the side of "Curly still had a responsibility to protect Anya as a crew mate and Captain that he failed to do due to biases and stigma's he failed to surpass" without the weird condemnation people give him about should've knowing better than to let himself be manipulated by a person he considered a close, if not family/best-friend and had his own reasons to trust initially. Also stop being weird about victims of abuse in general with this fandom, like sorry not everyone has a like social epiphany the moment someone's nasty to them. People are treating it like you immediately know when you are in a toxic relationship immediately or comprehend when a person is actively dangerous and either it's your fault for not knowing how to leave/cut them off or you deserve it. Like the hypocrisy of people believing how certain fans treat the story reflect their irl views but not their own is crazy.

End statement is: I honestly don't even know man, I've been writing this too long and just like no man on that ship was perfect or really helped Anya when it mattered and I feel like pitting them against each other in discussion on who did the least or most or how it was justified sucks cause in the end Anya always did the most and best thing for herself.

[jube-art]

[c1trvswurld]

STOP babying and objectifying Daisuke

STOP making anya a perpetual forever doting victim

STOP making swansea this hotheaded gaurd dog

STOP babying and objectifying and being ableist to curly and removing autonomy

STOP ignoring the complex themes of jimmys character just to mischaracterize and to dunk on your idea of him and, therefore, ignoring the themes of the story

Stop ignoring the complexities of their characters please and thank you

[rotzaprachim]

I think one of the most uncomfortable aspects of the “absolutely no imprisonment or incarceration for crimes but also rapists deserve to die or be killed and if you think otherwise you’re a rape supporter” logic that’s proliferated among the left for some reason has a lot of terrible implications - plenty of people who are against incarceration in any circumstances also seem to have ideologies that involve forming “community brigades” or something which in Their minds aren’t just … extrajudicial militias - but one of the fallouts is less recognition and support of rape victims, not more. Because most people actually don’t want people to die, and the idea that all rapists deserve to die necesitates another idea that rapists are some closed off Other group that they will have no attachment to or contact with or will matter to no one or be some oppressor class they can just guillotine and move on with. They can’t accept that killing rapists would mean killing their brothers or comrades or friends or that killing rapists would mean killing other oppressed people or marginalized people, so it’s easier to believe that all those people couldn’t POSSIBLY have raped someone, rather that they did, and don’t deserve to die for it.

[boag]

The girl who got sexually assaulted by Melanie Martinez came back to the internet and made a long tiktok explaining what happened and how Melanie’s fans literally ruined her career and her life and all these Melanie fans are once again on Twitter saying random irrelevant shit about her . Like oh you heard her old friends don’t like her anymore? You heard she was racist? Well this is a really crazy conversation to bring that up in unless you are trying to make this random woman sound like someone who Deserved to be raped by your fave which is exactly what you seem to be doing . Interesting

[ghouljams]

(i had to im sorry)

Site Memo:

I know you fucks can read.

(you are all my precious lab rats and I am making the men worse to see what your limits are)

[hakugreenfinch]

i replayed this conversation again today and im finding it very interesting and telling of how curly and jimmy think of responsibility.

i will not go very deep into dissecting how faulty curly is, there are plenty of posts out there about that and i dont want this to just be another.

what i noticed is that curly uses singular first and second person in this scene when talking about what to do next. "you will get through this" "i can fix this", "you" and "i" separately. he knows he should have been keeping his men in check but he doesnt group himself together with jimmy. "you did this, i can try and run damage control as much as possible." to curly, being responsible for his crew means making sure everyone is doing as fine as they can be and helping them out if his help is needed, which is why he offers to do jimmy's evaluation and gets daisuke out of the foam. this is also why realizing that he hasnt been properly looking out for anya gets him so worked up when he finds her in the cockpit and why it, well, breaks him that its too late to keep things together. half of his crew is caught up in something he cant resolve and its his fault that he didnt notice sooner that something is up.

jimmy on the other hand (initially) uses plural first person. its "we failed", its "us". to him curly is not really a separate person who has his own thing going on and it shows even more when he shifts to second person - he slowly pushes the blame onto curly. its what "we" did, its what "you" will be remembered for. theyre like a team where he does whatever and can pull curly out of his pocket and have him take the fall for it. curly's responsibility to jimmy means anything can be blamed on him. i mean its pretty wild to look someone in the eye and say "actually, me raping someone is your fault only" isnt it? but thats what he believes. we see him associating the captains responsibility with another opportunity to play the victim during the third pill feeding too. to him its not about a mutual exchange with those under him where he has to do things for the team to really work as a team, its about everyone doing what he wants and having to do nothing for it.

i dont really have a pretty ending for this. im just very intrigued by the subtle pseudo power play between these two, curly desperately trying to fix something he should have noticed is breaking long ago and jimmy only caring about bringing him down as well if he has to go down, not as in "we are in this together", more like so that he has someone to fall on when hes pushed.

[tubbytarchia]

So I think my perception of Grian's reasoning for enabling the horrible Jimmy ecosystem and also my perception of his character as a whole has been turned on its head completely and I feel really bad for him after watching Kingdom of Valor and it's like bad roleplay but it's. it's done things to me and I've never ever felt this much for Grian not even in my sadboy Grian Desert Duo phase. I don't know what to do about this

SA word under cut

Episodes 6 and 10 (like the entirety of it) for context. :( . :(. But like major warning if you watch those episodes, especially 10, because um they didn't use any disclaimers

[icarusredwings]

Thinking about select mutism Wade and how fucking freaked out Logan gets about it. Like Wade got home 30 minutes ago and hasn't said a damn word to him. He's walking around all quiet and almost shy?? Avoiding eye contact but staring directly at them when in the same room. As if watching to see if theyll get up and hurt him or some crazy thing like that.

It gets to the point that when he goes to his room, (attempts) to lock the door (hes literally the one who broke it) and just curls up in the corner of the bed with the entire blanket over top of him.

Logan just kinda peeks in all confused, assumes that he's in pain, and asks to see if he can help at all. "Hey... do you want your pills? Or.. a bath? Are you hungry? Want a puke bowl? Or a hot water bottle?" As he goes through the list in his head of what to offer, Wade is silent the entire time.

".....Wade?"

"...."

"Are you asleep already?"

Under the blanket, he can tell that he's shaking his head no.

"... are you alright?"

"...."

"Did something happen?"

"...."

"...Do you want a hug?"

Another shake of the head.

This is what makes Logan worried. The fact that he didn't want held, a bath, or anything. It concerns him to the point he calls Vanessa (for like the billionth time)

If anything, the phone call makes him feel worse as Vanessa tells him how Wade was first like this after the experiments. How he didn't say anyrhing to her for months and if he was doing that again, he should go interogate who ever he was with to find out what triggered such a big step back in his progress.

"Its so fucking weird he just..."

"Stares at you? Yeah. It creeped me out."

"So now what do I do? With him, I mean? He just shakes his head. He dosn't even want me to touch him."

"Oooh... wait... you haven't looked at the calander, have you?"

"That matters?"

"Logan.. It's scout week."

"What?"

"During this time of year the scouts camp out at central park. It's just something they do.. he probably saw them and thought..."

"Oh.."

"Yeaah... Look, im really busy with work, too. So you're on your own. Just try to keep away. Bring him food. Make sure he's drinking something good for him. Once inawhile ask if he wants to do something. He might try to sleep in a closet. Let him. Trying to force him into a bed will be worse but maybe if you put his stuffies on the couch he'll choose there instead." She mutters, someone calling for her in the background, a manager of some type.

"Okay. Got it."

"Oh and logan?"

"What?"

"You got this."

"Heh. Right... wish someone told you that?"

"No duh. Bye."

And so he does, bringing wade a cup of water and a sandwich. It breaks his heart to see him flinch away and burry himself in the corner like this, watching his every step with such wide eyes.

"Hey.. i uh.. I brought you this." He outs the food down and Wade stares at him.

".. do.. do you wanna come watch a cowboy movie with me..?"

He shakes his head, starting to smell even more anxious with how long Logan lingered around the room. His head lowers, his hand staying by the special pillow. The one that had his baby knife under. Seeing him like this made him feel terrible. As of he himself caused it though he knew it wasn't true.

"Right.. uhm. Well... if you want too.. ill be out here. And.. Ill save you a seat. Okay?"

The tinyist nod.

Just as he was about to leave, he saw the baby doll in her crib, stepping closer to it only to be able to practically hear his heartbeat quicken.

Stopping, he turns. "Hey, Wade? Do you think... I can take Emily? You know.. erm.. daddy daughter time? Right?" He had said it wrong on purpose, hoping Wade would correct him.

"...."

He only looked as if he really wanted to say something, but didn't dare. He shook his head, getting up and quickly coming to 'rescue' the child, sprinting over to snatch her from the cradle only to flinch away, wide eyed and scared.

Logans chest snaps into a thousand pieces. He didn't know what wade was thinking but he had a goos feeling... did.. he really think he would do that to Evelyn? How badly did he think of him to do such a thing?

"Oh...... alright.. erm. W-well bye then." He said, holding back tears as he left, trying to remember that he couldn't be upset with wade for protecting her. He did the right thing afterall.. he just wish he wouldn't protect her from him.

[howlsofbloodhounds]

Can you talk more about the fandom's ableism with Ink and Killer??im quite curious!/gen (reference to your reblog tags)

I can try, but know im not an expert and also bigger knowledgeable inks fans are welcome to chime in.

So we all know how Ink is soulless, yes? It is because of this that people take it as an excuse to demonize them and make them evil, fake, manipulative, abusive, a bad parent, a rapist—everything under the sun simply because he’s soulless, lacks empathy.

Some people claim he doesn’t feel emotions because of his soullessness all the time and the paint vials he takes are just “fake emotions,” but in actuality Ink needs those paints to function (because without them Ink becomes an unmoving husk and this makes him extremely vulnerable to being used and taken advantage of), and to feel. It’s basically medication that he needs.

Not to mention; Ink is clearly a neurodivergent character, having hyperfixations and everything. This breeds depictions of “Ink is so stupid,” “Ink is a child,” “Ink needs to be leashed and treated like an animal,” “everyone is tired of and hates ink because ink is annoying.”

You see this type of thing with Killer a lot too in his fanon depictions, and this is because it’s a pretty agreed upon headcanon that Killer has ADHD; it’s just that most people clearly don’t do any research into how Ink and Killer’s ADHD/Autism are disorders, how they actually impact them as characters and their lives rather then how they annoy and inconvenience everyone else around them, infantilize and dehumanize them by treating them like hyperactive idiotic children or animals that need to be kept on a leash—is stereotypical depictions of ADHD with the typical “hyperactive talking a lot so annoying oh my god can you just shut up?” and “can’t ever stop moving or talking” and just generally have other characters be ableist and abusive as fuck towards them both and play it off as if it’s supposed to be funny to be talked to like that just because something they have no control over was a little annoying today.

there’s no discussions or depictions how this stuff effects either of them. Killer already has a dissociative disorder and CPTSD and can’t trust his own memory, and Ink has short term memory loss so bad he needs to write things down on their scarf just to keep track of it, and yet Killer’s memory issues are completely ignored because he has to be the silly haha comedy relief that all the characters use as their punching bag and Ink’s is only ever brought up in any serious capacity to paint them as a bad parent who would forget that his children even exists.

Killer and Ink are both characters with little to no empathy for others; and this is used to demonize them, or is completely ignored by giving Ink a soul or and forcing Killer into Stage 1 as their quick fixes.

Their lack of empathy and emotionlessness is only ever brought up to use them as villains in another character’s story; which is extra fucked up when people refuse to acknowledge that Killer is a canonical victim of literal conditioning, abuse, torture, kidnapping, and literal fucking trafficking.

People are demonizing someone who is literally trapped in a trafficking ring and being sent out as weapon of terrorism by Nightmare under threat of torture, death, and replacement all because, oh. He’s emotionless. He’s sadistic. He doesn’t act like a perfect victim curling up in a ball crying from guilt every single day and why doesn’t he just say no?

Killer isn’t perfect but people like to pretend he has more control and power than he does and like he actually wants this when the man doesn’t even know what he wants because he became who he needed to be to survive. People seem dumbfounded by the concept that victims will mirror their abusers to survive and that obviously won’t make them good people, but killer doesn’t consider himself people.

It’s never brought up how Ink’s memory loss and his lack of paints making him a husk would make him very easily to abuse and use and lie to and manipulate and take advantage. It’s never brought up how Ink thinks and feels about upsetting or losing friends because he forgot their names, or their birthdays, or when they were meeting up and where, and no matter how hard he tries things just keep slipping from his mind.

It’s never brought up how Stage 2’s indifference and overwhelming apathy and dehumanizing view of himself (and others, just like Ink, who sees others as characters in a story whereas Killer sees people more like codes programmed to follow specific scripts and roles in a long series of games and tests and just not real), means he is a lot more likely to be used and abused and taken advantage of—and yes, raped, because for some reason people really really love making Killer a sexual predator as if he’s not the one most likely to be abused in that manner—means he’d likely just accept whatever someone does to him (especially if he believes they’re stronger than him) because why should he care? Nothing matters anyway. There’s no point in resisting, why bother. This is how it was always supposed to end, and nothing is real anyway. This doesn’t affect me, i don’t have emotions, im not real. I’m not a person.

The only form of control Killer would have is playing along. Acting, pretending he enjoys it and is having fun—but ultimately, he doesn’t know if he does or not. Where does he begin and the act end. He doesn’t know, but if everyone around him is telling him one thing, then it must be true.

Stage 2 wouldn’t see himself as a victim or anything that happened to him as anything particularly significant. Nightmare asks him to do something and he does it because why not is what he thinks—it’s just how it works, Nightmares stronger. He ignores what would happen if he drug his feet or attempted to refuse because to him it’s just logical that he’d be punished for that, and he likes pain anyway, so enjoying means he must’ve wanted it.

(Does this justify the people he hurts when commanded to, triggered to, provoked, or when his dehumanization of others and conditioning leads him to do pretty awful abusive shit to them out of sadism or curiosity or just needing to feel in control? No, of course not. Any of his victims are allowed to hate him or feel however they want about him.

Doesn’t mean we have to ignore that he’s also a victim and has even less control than he allows others to see or know about, and that he himself likely refuses to acknowledge or look at too deeply.)

Which is another thing a lot of people use to justify Nightmare’s abuse of Killer. That he’s masochistic and sometimes pushes and provokes Nightmare into hurting him—the idea that it’s not actually abuse because he “wanted it” and “liked it” or that he’s somehow as bad as Nightmare because “he provoked him.”

He cannot access the emotions and trauma and fear and moral concerns and safety concerns of his other Stages because that is the entire point of his dissociative disorder and his conditioning. This makes him easy to control and this how he’s survived and remained even somewhat functioning.

Not to mention. The idea that Ink and Killer need to “learn empathy” or “learn emotions” to be better or good people, and not because being in touch with emotions is an important thing everyone should learn especially victims of abuse and those with trauma and that having little to no empathy is not some moral failing on their end or says something about the type of people they are. It just means they struggle to relate to others, understand their emotions, or feel others emotions as if it were their own.

There’s also the matter of some people trying to say that because Ink is soulless he is AroAce. That is not true, is both aro/aphobic and ableist. Ink is both soulless and AroAce and these are two completely separate things—they’d still be AroAce even if they had a soul.

There’s probably a whole lot more that can be said about this, but I’ll end it right here. Others can add on or correct me.

[mssallsunday]

mouthwashing features a mc who rapes and impregnates a woman and then crashes a spaceship full of innocent people to cover that fact up when the news gets out to the ppl she confides in and the captain tells her her assaulter wouldn't do that because he "knows him" and the mc pretends like it never happened as he is haunted by the images of his lies and deceit and cowardice and the image of his unborn child and the sound of a child's cries and the captain who failed to act cannot move himself or feed himself or speak for himself or defend himself when the mc attacks him and berates him and blames him for every lie he's ever told as the captain loses every scrap of autonomy he has left. but yeah it's about fucking. capitalism and yaoi. whatever i guess

[dootznbootz]

I don’t have a link but I saw a post along the lines of “EPIC fans trying to gaslight themselves into thinking Odysseus wouldn’t cheat (he does in the books)” and I nearly had a conniption.

Some people WERE arguing he was assaulted, but other people were saying it depends on the interpretation and saying he has a child with Circe and that he stays on the island with her for a year. I also saw someone say he was just lying about being assaulted on another post about it.

The Odyssey/EPIC fandom is so exhausting I’ve thought about blocking everything sometimes ngl. It’s so hard to filter out posts like that. But there’s so much amazing art and content about it I don’t want to stop seeing it.

No, like that's the struggle of it.

I Love Epic and I technically got into the Odyssey BECAUSE of Epic. But I'm a hardcore Odyssey girly. I adore it so much. I've read 8 translations at this point because I love it so much and it's fun for me! And Epic is in no way a replacement for the Odyssey (Jay even says that it's not! he's simply inspired by the Odyssey) and it feels like high quality fanfiction of the Odyssey (FUN! JOYOUS WHIMSY! I still like it! :3 ).

But holy shit, like, both Epic AND Tagamemnon fans can be so fucking exhausting. (I am a fan of both. I can say this.)

(Obviously I'm not talking about everyone. <3 I've made many friends and have met lovely people in both fandoms.)

Like while yes, Epic!Odysseus isn't coerced/raped by either of the goddesses, that's simply because of the fact that Jay simply felt like he wasn't well equipped to handle such dark topics to that extent. And I honestly respect him for that! He knows his limits with the story he wanted to tell and that's good! And in general I think he did a fantastic job handling the aspects of it he did touch on (Coercion with Circe's threatening in "There Are Other Ways" is done well imo.)

(ngl, I kind of take back what I said about "Not Sorry for Loving You". I think a lot of my reaction was initially from my fear of how fandom would react. But I've been delightfully surprised seeing how (for the most part) Epic Fandom has really come through to show the "fucked up-ness" of that song)

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ODYSSEUS IN THE ODYSSEY IS A SHITTIER HUSBAND BECAUSE HE, IN THE ANCIENT TEXT, CANNOT SAY NO TO A GODDESS.

Greek Mythology isn't like Percy Jackson where 12 year old Percy beat Ares. (I was a PJO KID TOO!) It's not "Odysseus didn't try hard enough" fucking victim blaming btw because HE LITERALLY CANNOT REFUSE OR THEN HE'LL (AND HIS FRIENDS IN THE CASE OF CIRCE) WOULD DIE!!!

Like I wrote a whole ass essay on Circe's Situation (I feel so preachy and shitty about having to constantly bring it up but I will as much as I have to to get people to listennnn) and in general, if you can't see what's happening with Calypso, you've got your head up your ass and/or are just looking away because you don't like the actual implications of what's happening. For the main "gripe" I've seen with Calypso with how "He enjoyed her company at first", @lyculuscaelus has a great essay breaking that down.

And before? ODYSSEUS HAS NO LISTED CONCUBINES! And he brings up Penelope often in the Iliad!

And the whole "lying about being assaulted", I'm sorry but if someone is holding the "Men were so sexist that they couldn't possibly care about the women in their lives or have been victims" idea, then why would Odysseus willfully share that he was raped by women? Who, as they say, were viewed beneath him? Why would he lie about something that would put him in such a humiliating light?

Btw, Menelaus (sealy boy!!!) even says that he's being held captive by Calypso with what he learned from Proteus! Menelaus isn't known for telling stories!

I feel bad as like, I used to LOVE going into the tags and finding creators I haven't seen before and cheering them on! Art and Fics and yay! But like... It's sometimes so disheartening going in there and seeing nonsense or bad takes ;~;

Honestly, as much as I DO enjoy Epic, I think that hopefully once the hype dies down a lil, it'll chill out more :') We'll all be okay!

[verdantwyrm]

Stepping out of my cage to say; Curly didn't know Anya was raped.

WE KNOW. As the player, Curly wasn't told. He was only told that a pregnancy occurred between her and Jimmy, but the actual details of the event- what we know, is not something that Curly knows. We're able to pick up all the signs and see the language and imagery used, but to Curly, it just sounds like they had a hook up and it ended up in a pregnancy.

Curly never asked, and he was never told. This isn't trying to say that because of this, he's free of his sins. But it is very annoying to see people write Curly as this monster that knew 100% that Anya was raped and was just, fine with it.

And plus, when Anya asks what Curly would have done, people seem to be ignoring (or just plain outright not even noticing) the language used. She's asking him what he would have done. The event is already over, it happened, she is asking what he would have done if he had been there, or if he knew earlier; or maybe if he knew at all.

Looking at this the most realistically one can, Curly isn't a knowing enabler, he's unknowing a bystander. He genuinely does not know the actual depth of the situation, and this also alludes to the very vague response he gives to Anya when she asks about the locks on the door.

For safety, for whatever reason the cockpit has locks, whatever reason the Meday has a lock, but not any of the bedrooms. Curly acknowledges the absurdity behind the decision, but he doesn't quite understand or grasp why Anya could be asking such a thing beyond simple curiosity because of course someone like Anya would be pointing out something like this, she spends the most time in the med bay, and Curly likewise with the Cockpit.

AGAIN. This is not me absolving that responsibility from Curly, he still failed to protect Anya, and he should have attempted to do more. But he is not a willing and knowing enabler. And if he was truly told the situation, would it even benefit anyone if were to react "accordingly" ?

When Anya tells Swansea about it, he is holding back, he's resisting the urge to confront Jimmy about it, and when he's finally pushed over the edge, he goes full axe swinging on him. No questions, no interrogation. And this pulls more into the question of doing something because it is right, and doing something because it is the right thing to do. Anya could have done the same thing with Curly if she told him, because what good would come out of escalating a situation with someone who proved on the psych evaluation, something Curly did, to not be very enthusiastic about being there or not very happy.

There are a ton of nuances that go into play when trying to realistically picture what could have or what should have happened on the Tulpar with Jimmy, and I really wish more people were willing to understand that it's not just as black and white, and not people that end up enabling said abusers are not always a willing and knowing crowd. And start maybe thinking about the fact that maybe Curly really did not know the depth of the situation.