#pro asoiaf women

[hargitays]

the enlightened take on rhaenyra & alicent (HOTD) and their GOT counterparts... how do we feel about this 🫂

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND THE IDEA OF INNOCENCE

Innocence, especially for women in asoiaf has a particular place in their perception.

Innocence in our world holds a very similar place.

When a character is innocent, you want better for them because any turmoil they go through is undeserved, and by the rules of both societies, it should allow them to be exalted from hardships.

So when it comes to such a small character like Nettles the idea of her innocence is perpetuated past the character we have because she is exalted from the concequence of what she is accused of in the narrative and is redeemed from all the hardship she faces towards the beginning when she claims a dragon.

But I don't think that's fair or correct so I want to go over some things we know and hear about her that people use to defend this idea of innocence and come to the conclusion that even though she is innocent it's not in the way typically attributed to her.

1. Nettles and Sheep:

Her relationship to this animal is a fun metaphor to understand her. Nettles trades sheep to gain her dragon Sheepstealer. Nettles trades innocence for power.

"Lambs have always been sacrificial animals. From the Ancient Greeks and Romans to Christians and even later civilizations, lambs were used for sacrifice to a higher purpose. In most cases, it was the sacrifice to Gods.These are the qualities that make lambs so symbolic. "

"They are a sign of innocence, purity, vulnerability, and sacrifice. Many of these symbols overlap with the symbolism of youth."

The idea of innocence is something that her taming Sheepstealer inherently corrupts. She slaughters sheep every day to get close enough to establish a bond to him. It's a continued effort to trade innocence for power, and because dragons make Targaryens closer to gods than men, the idea is that she's offering a sacrifice to a 'god' to gain power.

I'll link my post about this parallel she has to sheep further.

Another thing is that she's young, and that plays a part in what she is absolved from in the narrative because of the nativity and ability to grow with the potential of youth.

2. Nettles and The Cost of Power:

The regression of this trade for power comes after Driftmark is sacked and burned. In the war effort that Nettles largely contributed to, she loses her friend and her home. We are told her reaction to the loss is crying through the soot on her face so hard it leaves streaks. As with what happens consistently in mythology, the protagonist reaps benefits and consequences in the quest for power. The cost of gaining that power was fighting in the war, something she knew would happen. The fact that it came at the cost of her closest known relationship at the time as well as the place she grew up and had to leave behind to join the war effort is conceivable but not predictable for anyone to know. Especially not a 16 year old girl.

3. Nettles and King's Landing:

A while back, I drew attention to the fact that in the book, we have no real evidence that Nettles had any of the promises made to the Dragon Claimers kept to her. No marriages, lands, or knighthood equivalents are given to her in the wake of the fight. A lot of people use this as a way to say she's innocent because she believes in a cause and is sticking by it. That doesn't seem accurate towards the situation. King's Landing is the capital at that moment for punishing treason. She's a young, grieving girl, experiencing the price of power in a place where her refusal to fight or her running away will be met with a death warrant. Nettles has a nose scar for stealing allegedly. She's one of the characters we know understands the cost of disobedience in this world. She is a cost they'd be willing to pay. Even with her dragon adding to her necessity during the war, they're executing Noble men at that time. Nettles' entire life in juxtaposition to their's is incredibly small. Whether or not she cared about gaining anything (I like to think they gave her money), it's very clear that it's a weary time with major consequences for defiance or treason.

4. Nettles and Daemon:

This is the one people use this idea of innocence the most frequently for. "Nettles was innocent of the accusation made against her (sleeping with Daemon, not witchcraft), and Rhaenyra was influenced and turned against her."

Nettles doesn't need to be innocent for what Rhaenyra did to be wrong. The men who defend Nettles against the decree say that Nettles is wrong but young and shouldn't be killed for that. They conceded that the idea of treason is fair, but the idea surrounding it with the spell implications is simply incorrect and will make Daemon kill them if executed. Daemon is the sole person who puts her in danger and saves her in this narrative for his own character arc. Nettles isn't innocent, but she is young. She has her life ahead of her and has done everything that is expected of her. She isn't punished for love by the narrative. It saves her life and allows her to escape the trapping of power altogether, something she never returns to traditionally.

She does return to it with the burned men, but entirely away from the system, she originally gained that power from.

5. Nettles and Treason:

She did commit treason. That's not an innocent thing. It quite literally required her sleeping with a married prince. Whether or not she's a virgin (we'll get to it) in this world, giving into sex outside of marriage or prostitution as a woman is framed as wrong because of the value of virtue for women. With someone like Nettles, she'd know it's a bad thing and still proceeds with it. While as prince consort and a man Daemon will never dare a lick of concequence for adultery, Nettles would, and treason isn't a far stretch for the crime. Even with the understanding that Daemon would protect her, that they seemingly have, it's not okay. (It is to me. She's completely innocent.)

6. Nettles and Virginity:

Virtue is a currency in this world. Sleeping with a girl and deflowering is seen as a commodity and milestone. Virtue for women is posed as an added value. Without it, as we see in the books, women without maidenheads are seen as a lesser offer often beneath the standard of noble men.

Nettles is not ever positioned as a virgin. In this world, it's a logical conclusion to draw that she is not and would've traded sex for food or money. I'm not saying that happened, but if it did, there seems to be a stigma that it makes her lesser character in the story and / or denies her own autonomy by demeaning her. With the way it is presented in the narrative, it's a fair conclusion to draw. It's said to deter the idea that Daemon would sleep with her because she isn't even worth it, and that's my issue with the she should be virtuous reading.

It falls into the temptation of a character doing what she must to survive being a way to demean her. Nettles was surviving every day before the sowing. Her having sex, prostitution or just because she could, should not shroud her character in any world. Nettles can exist as both a critical view of how Westeros treats girls like her and as an autonomous character who chooses whether or not to have sex given her situation without it being demeaning or derogatory towards her as a character.

7. Nettles and Sex Work:

To add on, sex work is often demonized in this world, and because of the poor class of women often in these positions who are quite young and have no real alternative. Nettles as a character would exist in contradiction to the narrative of not only sex workers who die or are brutalized in that life, think book Shae, Show Roz. She'd also be the one who is actively saved by the class of people who often perpetuate this system of abuse they exist in.

Nettles isn't in it anymore or has once been preyed on by the entrapping cycle that brothels perpetuate but escapes and makes her own way. She's foul-mouthed and marred because of it, but she also becomes a dragonrider, and then when she has sex it's because she wants to.

When the narrative tries to condemn her for it, she's saved by the person who puts her in that position, unlike the other girls, like Tysha, Nettles' value isn't placed on her past sexual partners, and she is like the other girls who fall victim to the predatory sex work establishments in ASOIAF, but she escapes and isn't punished in the narrative for sleeping with someone or trying to survive in the first place. Something we don't really see in this world.

Overall,

The overarching angle of innocence pushed on her character is extremely strange and does not benefit her as a character. Innocence in this world is based on patriarchal feudalism that commodifies women into property and places value on them like stock that depreciates with superficial nonsense.

Question this world.

Nettles isn't innocent and shouldn’t have to be to deserve the ending she gets. She can just escape because she learns and grows and is young enough to do it without major consequences for her.

Nettles is innocent however, in the narrative of a poor, homeless girl with nothing, accomplishing a tremendous feat and gaining power from it, being used in wars and fights that have nothing to do with her and having the threat of death looming if she doesn't comply.

In being used as a means to an end in a conflict between the two most powerful people in the realm and escaping without any permanent concequence to her. She's not guilty.

Let girls have fun and be complex characters in their narratives. Innocence isn't a necessity, but even if it was for you to like her, she is, in a sense, innocent.

[sunfyredefender77]

[daeneryspilled]

“the dance isn’t about misogyny” one, if rhaenyra had been born with a dick the dance would have effectively been prevented (or at least stalled). male!rhaenyra would be seen as the undisputed heir to the throne, and if viserys still ends up marrying alicent (but this is an IF situation because aemma might not even die if v has no reason to keep pushing her for a male heir) the *only* excuse she would have to help usurp the throne is for her own want of power. the ‘my children will be in danger!’ line will not work and no one (besides maybe a few upstarts) will back her.

two, aegon had the chance to name a female heir after he murdered rhaenyra and didn’t. both of his sons were dead, his enemy was dead, the only other living male targaryen that he knew of was his captive. it’s *almost* like aegon knew he backed himself into a corner all on the basis of usurping a woman and couldn’t then name jaehaera as his heir. it probably didn’t help that he knew his days were numbered too once word reached the remaining green council of cregan’s army. he *quite literally* fucked himself. repeatedly. an embarrassing number of times, really. dude kept his massive loser persona in tact right up until the very end. props to him for that i guess.

[valinoar]

alicent antis are like ok well she didn’t dismantle the patriarchy at 15 so she doesn’t deserve to ever complain about anything that happens to her because she allowed it. and the things that happen to her are forced child marriage and multiple pregnancies by a gaslighting hag

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Green stans logic:

Rhaenyra should be hated for not helping advance women’s positions throughout the Realm (even though it was a hardship to get stability for herself as the first reigning Queen of the Seven Kingdoms).

Meanwhile, Aegon Hightower should be applauded for taking away a woman’s legitimate right to the throne at a time when a couple of women were found in positions of power throughout the Realm (Lady Jeyne Arryn of the Vale being the most notable example).

Seriously��try harder.

[vhaena-targaryen]

Three of my favorite women and their purple eyes💜

edited by me :)

[a-chaotic-dumbass]

get urself someone who loves u as much as house lannister hates children

[reignof-fyre]

Hotd writers: the show is about feminism and the patriarchy ruining-

Me, an intellectual: if it was truly about feminism, you wouldn't have removed all the agency, ambitions, and complexities from the female leads (rhaenyra, alicent), nor would you have completely erased a strong female friendship/rumored love affair (rhaenyra x laena), nor would you have victimised the female leads when, in the source material, both relish their femininity and positions of power and use them to their advantage because, in a patriarchal world, having the power/title of queen/crown princess was all they had. You wouldn't have given firm decisions made by the female leads to men in their lives (murder of the strongs, heavily implied it was ordered by Alicent, alicent first demanding lucerys' eye before rhaenyra even spoke, and having rhaenyra order vaemond dead and fed to syrax for the insult he levied at her), nor would you have had Daemon murder Rhea Royce for shock value (and to try and make daemon a straight up villain) when it's provable that he was in the stepstones (with witnesses) when she had a hunting accident, lingered for nine days, long enough to implicate daemon, then died of a brain bleed, all without pointing the finger at daemon. Nor would you set the narrative of shaming rhaenyra at every turn for chosing not to rape her gay husband (whose likely bisexual in the book and fathered jace and luke because there is so much symbolism pointing to them being trueborn velaryons), you'd have kept Rhaenyra's kids' parantage ambiguous like it is in the book, nor would you have rhaenys pick a fight with rhaenyra during every scene they're in together because....what? There is no reason for rhaenys to hate rhaenyra, and yet you wrote it in when rhaenys is one of Rhaenyra's most ardent supporters in f&b

[black-queen-rising]

The people taking this dialogue as a legitimate “character flaw” or literally just at face value at all and not as a continuation of the blatant disrespect the writers have not just towards Rhaenyra as the heir of twenty years, but towards anything that could even vaguely be construed as “women’s work”, is the most perfect encapsulation of just how entrenched misogyny is into the very heart of our pop culture and how the popularization of fantasy has managed to worsen our societal view of soft power by painting it as not only weak, but frivolously feminine, unimportant, and a waste of time.

Since the beginning of the show the writers have almost exclusively portrayed Rhaenyra as disinterested if not opposed to her role as heir, as a politician, and a woman in power broadly all against the original canon and all glaringly, not to make her look worse or better or likable or incompetent (they do all those things, almost every episode, with however they need her to affect the plot in that given moment because they’re incapable of having the characters drive it organically) because it’s not truly about her at all. It’s simply because they cannot fathom a story where a woman is politically adept and as a result either 1. evil or 2. boring, and that is fundamentally because once again they are so biased and against portraying anything that could even vaguely be construed as women’s work or at all “feminine-coded” in an even neutral-but-interesting way they do for (stereotypically) masculine-coded activities like sword fighting, horse back riding, dragon riding, hunting, archery, not to mention just the concept of the political conversations that drive these stories, let alone an actually positive way.

They have taken a story that at its core was always an indictment of structural misogyny and how it will literally cause societies to tear themselves apart over nothing. But because they decided at the outset they wouldn’t and couldn’t portray the structural part of said misogyny without scaring away their intended audience, and decided instead to base this all around ultimately meaningless ~team discourse~ (because literally everyone meeting their downfall as a result of the consequences of systemic misogyny is the point) their alternate path has been to over-exaggerate and ultimately turn to spectacle every single woman involved’s individual suffering at the expense of everything else about their characters. It doesn’t matter if that was the intent or not the principle result of this adaptation has been the continual disempowerment and degradation of women and their agency combined with an almost impressively voyeuristic portrayal of their suffering.

The women in this show are not allowed to have interests or hobbies unless it’s to serve to make them seem “bad” in someway, whether that be the discomfort around Helaena’s bugs, the total lack of any positive representation of Alicent’s religiosity, or how the women dragon riders are broadly painted as aggressive, violent, and unnatural. I don’t even have specific examples to list from the other “team” because in order to be portrayed as “likable” to the general audience the women of Team Black are barely allowed to have personalities, let alone distinguishing interests or characterizing hobbies. The agency and autonomy they have been stripped of, collectively, from both historical precedent and actual ASoIaF, is almost entirely in their refusal to allow women’s work to be portrayed positively. There are no balls, no sewing circles, no garden parties, no trappings of power and contests of will in the jewels and gowns Rhaenyra must now loathe to be (their deeply narrow and biased view of) “likable”, there are no female mentorships, and no female friendships, and at every chance they have had to portray these things at both a societal and personal level they have chosen to veer away and instead reinforce their suffering. They have removed women’s avenues and halls of power from this story, while making it very clear there are no others that exist in this world, and they cannot participate in the men’s; if they could this story wouldn’t exist. So we are left with a group of people who are supposedly driving this story, who this story is supposedly about, but they are internally and externally isolated, largely removed from the public eye, angry or distressed to be there on the rare occasions they’re present, disempowered, stripped of personal agency and will, and we’re still told they have power. But if we search for it the only logical conclusion is that any power which does not center on how much suffering they have been through, or how much more they may be dealt, is not only gone, it was never there in the first place.

I don’t enjoy Rhaenyra’s quasi domestic abuse any more than Alicent’s visceral sexual shame and I don’t enjoy the infantilization of Helaena’s character any more than the erasure of Rhaena’s and it is deeply concerning how many people look at these decisions, and nod their heads and say “yes, this is realistic, and not only is it realistic it’s, GOOD, because without horrific psychological and physical abuse and ultimately a complete reduction to every female character as peace loving victims of powerful men’s cruel machinations we could never even SEE how misogyny is so damaging.” And the mindset that drives people to claim that those of us who call out how this is, the definition of benevolent misogyny and say we’re crazy, that we can’t see the complexity, that actually we’re the ones somehow falling back into sexist tropes, or asking for a black and white story when instead the black and white has simply become an insultingly reductive view of evil men versus helpless women and when all else fails, accusing us of wanting a boring story because it’s either not focused on gratuitous individual female suffering, or is focused on the kind of political power every single featured female character on both sides of this conflict wielded in the original book instead of evil man conversations and eviler man dragon-battles, is at its heart why we have come to a place in pop culture where one of its most marquee properties displays and embodies these problems so glaringly in the fucking first place.

[alicentflorent]

People are unironically saying the Targaryen’s are pro bastard rights (citing Rhaenyra, Jace and Rhaenys as prime examples) Honeys, have you not heard of the dornish? House Martell?

[sunfyredefender77]

the blue dress effect.

[daeneryspilled]

“i love daenerys BUT-” “i love rhaenyra BUT-” “i love baela BUT-” “i love rhaena BUT-”

STOP ✋🏻 and consider what you’re about to say bc i do indeed have access to not one but TWO knuckle sandwiches and an over abundance of rage i need to redirect at someone

[music-of-dragons]

Imagine saying that you would murder the innocent baby of a naive child bride due to terrible circumstances beyond her control that she literally did all she could to alleviate and thinking that's a good take 🤡

[drakaripykiros130ac]

I just have to say this: Aegon the Usurper flying off like an idiot in battle while Rhaenyra does not, doesn’t make this guy a hero, nor does it make Rhaenyra a coward.

We need to set the record straight: Women don’t have to be warriors in order to be worth something.

This is just another proof of classic misogynistic thinking of TG stans. But they also prove to be highly subjective since they give “poor sweet innocent” Helaena a pass for doing absolutely nothing and being less than relevant even as a dragonrider. And as the ringleader of the Greens, I don’t think Alicent sat on a horse and rode off to battle in order to further her own ambitions. She started the whole mess and then hid behind her sons. Even after Rhaenyra took King’s Landing, the only thing Alicent could say was something like “Just wait till my son Aemond returns bla bla bla.”

Rhaenyra is a girl’s girl. Those who read the book understand that. The canon version of her never wanted to be a son (unlike the stupidity induced in that show). She was very feminine: always choosing to wear the best dresses with the finest silks, many pieces of jewelry, and she is highly interested in men. She was always proud to be a woman. She embraced it. She never tried to act like the opposing gender as a way to make others look at her as worthy of the throne.

I repeat: Rhaenyra was a girl’s girl and she was proud of it.

She was not a warrior. She never trained with a sword in her life, unlike her idiotic half-brothers. She was not even the type (unlike Princess Rhaenys). Rhaenyra spent her time doing girly things and riding Syrax.

Shortly before the war started, Rhaenyra suffered a miscarriage which greatly affected her health. She needed months to recover. This is the reason why she didn’t ride Syrax in battle, as confirmed in the book. It was not because she didn’t want to or because she refused to fight her battles herself (as I hear many TG stans claim in spite).

And even if flying hadn’t been detrimental to her health, why would she fly into battle? You think that is a smart idea? It’s brave, but it’s also stupid, and the usurper himself proved that.

Aegon the Usurper rode his dragon into battle to show that he’s a man’s man, and what did that get him? Injuries which prevented him from being able to move well enough in order to sit on the throne he stole. The only battle he actually won was against a baby dragon, Moondancer. A baby dragon who inflicted deadly wounds on Sunfyre and caused his death.

So tell me again how ‘intelligent’ the usurper was to fly off into battle himself and what exactly he has accomplished with that. What exactly is so “heroic” about that? The fact that he shows off his masculinity on a big bad dragon?

And of course do forgive a poor woman for not flying her dragon into battle like a crazy person after a miscarriage and several psychological blows in one go like her father’s death, her daughter’s death, her son’s death and the usurpation through which a faction of snakes stole the throne that belonged to her.

Do forgive her for lacking any combat experience because you know…she was raised a girl and has a girlish personality!

And do forgive her for not being an idiot and getting herself disabled, like her half-brother did.

[atopvisenyashill]

atp i’m kinda fifty fifty on whether dany goes genuinely dark or whether she does similar fucked up shit (ie burning KL, sacking cities with the dothraki, & killing aegon vi) before attempting some level of redemption (in her eyes & her followers eyes) by going out in an ultimately useless attempt to destroy the others. like. i think the idea that she goes out trying to stop the tide of others (probably near the trident) and her people & maybe the riverlands are touched but the north is just kinda like “that was functionally useless & also she did still fuck up the crownlands” would fit george’s idea of “light and dark both” while also fitting with the general anti war, anti violence stances of the book.

because…part of why i don’t think she ever goes north or plays a huge part in the long night is because i think that “dany destroys the others with her blood magic dragons that george has compared to nukes” doesn’t really fit with the story? i think it’s notable that jon treats ghost like a genuine, beloved pet and not a war machine & all the violence ghost has done has been his own love of jon - my dog has barked at people when he can tell i’m uncomfortable! they’re good at picking up at our underlying emotions - and this is similar to summer as well. bran explicitly forgets to treat summer as a war machine bc he’s too busy enjoying the feeling of running & hunting and doing wolf things! vs robb is implied to use grey wind to kill & it’s part of why he eventually sends grey wind away - he’s unsettled by the violence he’s caused & made grey wind cause. i think when arya gets back to the riverlands, it’s not just her mother’s violence she will have to contend with, it’s nymeria’s as well! vs dany…explicitly wants to use the dragons to conquer. so going out in a blaze of glory that does nothing to change the tide of the war, the last scion of house targaryen trying and failing to escape the clutches of a prophecy that has plagued her family for hundreds of years but at least she tries to escape unlike her family…fits with where i think characters like tyrion & jaime are going where the point is even though they do genuinely evil shit, they at least attempt a breakaway even if it’s not wholly successful.

i reserve the right to wildly change my mind on this as i keep reading tho!!! it’s just where i’m feeling in asos. she is very similar to tyrion in that she is very much of her house & embodies her house’s weaknesses & sin while also having its strengths. and given that george is very fond of tyrion and has mentioned being fond of dany…i know a lot of us bitch about how it feels like tyrion won’t get a proper “comeuppance” for like, the sheer amount of sexual abuse he partakes in bc george doesn’t have as great of an idea of consent as the average person under 50 does rn or even like, the average woman/gay has lol, and i’m wondering if he’ll do some similar “an attempt at an eleventh hour redemption” thing with her.