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theotherseapancakes · 8 months ago

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Psssst. You mentioned no one cares about Philemon, but now I'm curious if you have any thoughts about his role in the games after he disappeared. And for sillies sake, does he have anything to do with the Dance games?

I have been waiting my entire life for this. Anon do you realize how verbose I'm going to get. DO YOU REALIZE? I hope you like read mores. Let me preface this with I am aware and have seen some popular theories, so I'm going to sidestep a lot of them and present one I've built since... well, I became a Persona fan as a teenager. MAJOR PERSONA SERIES SPOILERS LIKE THE ENTIRE THING OK? OK. yes even royal.

The P2 PSP additional scenario is so incredibly important and I think everyone missed the point of it. THE PERSONA 2 PSP ADDITIONAL TATSUYA SCENARIO!!!! It's beyond important, because it reveals to us Philemon can have more than one Avatar we know about, just like Nyarly. (Casual reminder he's like half the shopkeeps in P2. Time Count, anyone? Why was the Time Count so hot. Anyway.) Disclaimer: I'm just a casual fan who has played a LOT of Persona and SMT. I haven't gotten around to all of them, but I've played/finished both paths of 1, 2, 3 (and p3p) as well as 4 and 5. Didn't manage to get my hands on Golden but I've seen enough of it. (It's funny you ask about the dance games, they're the only ones I don't have right now! But my roommate does, and will be gone for a few months soon, perhaps I will take the time to start with p4DAN. I'm atrocious at rhythm games though so more than likely I'll find a video. Anyway.) WHAT is Philemon? If we can't define that, we can't talk about The Positivity Guy Ever.

So let's talk about Phil. He's a fascinating character. His Persona is just a form of Himself, But Cooler. And he seems to HAVE no set shape, not unlike Nyarlathotep. People have various theories about Shadows and their origins etc., but Phil is more like that vote of confidence in people. I think, personally, that after the end of Innocent Sin, Phil's been pretty weak. We see in Eternal Punishment he's fading pretty roughly, and has a hard time talking to the party. Presumably ending Nyarly might to some degree fix things when Deja-vu Boy goes home, but... the problem is, we don't know how fixed they truly ended up being, or the full depth of how much he could/did expend!

In fact, the first time we even see Phil without the dumb mask is when Tatsuya decks him. Pay close attention to that fact. To the mask motifs here. I want you to really soak in Phil's everything. He's a leader. A kind soul. He's the good of people. He wants to believe the best.

Anyway, most of these things overlook what I find really interesting as we've gotten more games worth of lore: he and Nyarly aren't the only eldritch entities walking around like that. Yes, Nyx is one too. Yes, it's probable she may even be their 'mom'. It's possible they all came from Nyx initially, but it's also possible (and should be considered) they too may have been outsiders at one point. We need to ask ourselves how far the human collective unsconsciousness can go. Is that sea infinite? Could it affect other worlds? Think about Aion in Devil Summoner Soul Hackers 2. Yes, I am asking you to think about Soul Hackers 2. Deal with it, I don't care. They're sister series. They share many things. SO! Did the shape of the human mind change a bunch of eldritch creatures and make them interact with us even more after Nyx smacked the moon a gazillion years ago? Is there multiple worlds? Weird bullshit? Just the two? Hmm. Well... I, personally, think so. I think he was touched by humanity just like Nyarlathotep, but in the other way. The reason I bring this up is two-fold. The first is Nodens. Now, we don't know much about the actual Nodens, unfortunately, just some speculation. Which is a shame. (If anyone has more info I'd love to have it, ngl. As a pagan this shit fascinates me.) But what we do get on him in Lovecraftian lore can provide us some intriguing possibilities about Phil's everything, which the games love to keep really rather vague. (And this is putting aside that his human Persona is based off the obviously bogus Jungian Spirit Guide, but we love an old guy in a mask anyway. He probably felt that was more 'friendly' for humans, hah.) I believe that Nodens, and Phil by extension, are just as responsible for nurturing and keeping the collective unconsciousness alive and positive. We see the butterfly symbol everywhere. We see it with Lavenza, too. "This is truly an unjust game." So was the bet Phil made with Nyarly, a game he rigged. Phil made the mistake of thinking the Crawling Chaos wouldn't cheat, a mistake he is never making again, I assume, if he can help it. Shit, you could view his boss fight in P2EP as him trying to train the EP crew to beat the snot out of Nyarly, even. But off topic. If Nyarly is basically the father of all Shadows, and they and Personas are the same coin, it makes me wonder a lot of things. The two have always been portrayed as simultaneously diametrically opposed, but also not? They have identical halls in P2. They have similar powers and talents... I think after Persona 3, Phil's remnants sank into the Collective Unconsciousness, to attempt to rehabilitate humanity from what it lost, from what he himself lost. I think Igor took over the room, because he took a backseat to recover. It would go a long, long way towards explaining why only SOME characters have the tier of the Wild Card, which is similar to the 'original' Persona power. (Having multiple.) He was took weak to remain in his Spirit Guide (Philemon) form, and had to abandon it to return to the depths as Nodens... So. Let me go back to Nodens and make some notes about design.

Nodens, as seen here, sort of resembles an iron maiden. It really brings to mind the idea of maybe Tatsuya or someone's humanoid form sleeping within it, doesn't it? Fitting for an aspect of Philemon! ... You probably can see where I'm going with this, but let me pull up some screens to finish the point:

That's right! It's Azathoth, Baby! I believe that unlike mythology, he's yet another aspect of Philemon. Eldritch positivity, in too much force, could be used for accidental bad, too. (Reasons Maruki is my favorite Law Hero, haha.) Let me explain. I think Philemon always existed in... let's call it parts. Azathoth is said to be a dreaming god in whom's universe we all just happen to be alive inside, right? "Dream of butterfly" (Philemon) "Or is life a dream? Don't wanna wake up. Cuz I'm happy here." That sure is thematic to what Maki goes through in Persona 1, and what Maruki's beloved suffers, isn't it? ISN'T IT. The "true reality" he creates... would help Maruki create in the additional Semester--would be something most humans would never pass the muster to even try to control. But we have seen Phil test a few people and find them worth passing before! However, that seems like ages ago. Why has he been so quiet? I think because he was spending time conserving his energy. He believed in humanity enough to give Makoto a push when it was needed in p3 (or femc, if you play her), but otherwise trusted Igor while he restored what needed it. But in Persona 5 Royal, he hand-picked Maruki, didn't he? At first, when I played Persona 5 Royal, I really thought it was some part of Nyarly, but I no longer believe this to be the case. The coloration and symbolism in the background (the golds, the whole garden of eden themes, the way his Palace was laid out), the whole sea of soul motifs in P3Re later... mmm. I have a lot of thoughts about this, but this post is already way too long for one simple ask. So let's wrap up by going one step further and looking finally at Nodens' dialogue to the party in the Extra Scenario in Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (PSP). The following is a transcript, you can find a video here:

Nodens: This is the memory of the lost child whom you all seek. Nodens: Memory occasionally brings about much distress and suffering, but it is absolutely vital to distinguish oneself from others and manufacture one's own psyche. Nodens: Ever since it began, life's memory has accumulated unbroken, passing through individual experiences and spanning several generations. Nodens: And so it has given shape to Kadath and the Collective Unconsciousness, thereby becoming a foundation for the next generation. Nodens: Even if the roots of the world are directed by fear and anxiety, never forget that the true essence of life is brimming with joy. Nodens: You must not stop seeking the answer for why life was born in a cosmos progressing towards absurdity and chaos. Nodens: Life brims with joy, bringing about balance in a universe predestined to heat death, and that allows the world to live a long time.

So to answer your question, I think he's taken a much subtler role. I think he's influencing people by pretending to be a Persona for Maruki, because he believes it will help them grow. I don't think he was intending a forever-control vice grip, but rather to prove a point. No matter what, the primordial chaos of humanity will rise up for chaotic good, lawful good, whatever "good" is needed. Azathoth is... interesting. Adam Kadmon is also interesting. But mostly I HIGHLY suspect we may see him again in Persona 6, or at least I'm hoping so. It's my personal pet theory by then he'll be less faded and come back to us in a new form of some kind. He's never had a set one, after all. Now for funsies about the dancing game, well, he's a positive guy, he wanted to just make sure everyone had their fitness regimen checked off. Obviously. (This is a joke.) Did the devs intend this? I'm honestly not sure? Like there's a lot of nods to older Personas in 5 and now 3RE especially, but it's definitely worth chewing on. I could go on and on about things I think he's connected to, but ultimately they have the final say lol. I'm just a crackpot conspiracy theorist on tumblr who really likes Philemon. He and the Room are my favorites. :) Ask me about attendants for additional dumb, sometime, I guess lol.

#persona #persona 1 #persona 2 #persona 3 #persona 4 #persona 5 #persona spoilers #p5r #philemon #persona 2 innocent sin #persona 2 eternal punishment #nodens #text #long post;#SORRY NOT SORRY THIS IS ONE OF MY ETERNAL BRAINROT QUESTIONS HERE #I live and breathe overthinking SMTPersona

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melliae · 4 months ago

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MBTI(?): Philemon & Nyarlathotep

Okay, there’s not much to explain about this. The title is quite self-explanatory… Though I lied a little bit, because the only thing I’m using MBTI for to type Philemon and Nyarlathotep is the code/letters of the types, with every other piece of content being derived from these sources:

Jung’s “Psychological Types”

Marie-Louise von Franz’s “Lecture on Jung’s Typology”

Daryl Sharp’s “Personality Types: Jung’s Model of Typology”

David Keirsey’s “Please Understand Me II” (Which, all around, I find quite useful)

Naturally, the conclusions derived from (most of) these are widely different regarding the more known MBTI. The more glaring is, first and foremost, the nature of the Judgement facet: In MBTI, it’s commonly used to indicate the first extraverted function due to, if I’m not wrong, modifications on Isabella Briggs Myers's part; in the method I’m using, it’ll refer to the nature of the dominant function, independent if it’s introverted or extraverted.

The second difference is the attitude of consciousness. In MBTI, the attitude of the functions follow the ie/ie and ei/ei pattern, where both the conscious (first half) and the unconscious (second half) are introverted and extraverted. I’m not going to explain why, since there’s already a better source here (pitifully, it was removed...), but Jung’s writings differ since he proposed that consciousness is purely introverted or extraverted, not mixed; meanwhile, the unconscious adapts the contrary attitude to compensate for consciousness, with no mixing of attitudes again.

Between these two things, the types belonging to the MBTI and those that Jung wrote about are completely incompatible: while a MBTI ISTJ has Si - Te - Fi - Ne, a “jungian” one has Ti - Si - Ne - Fe. And as I stated, I’m going to follow this last pattern due to some personal choices.

Now, let’s begin the typing.

A World of Mythology and Possibilities

Okay, first and foremost, Persona is a series defined by the perceiving axis of introverted sensation (Si) and extraverted intuition (Ne): It’s about a secondary world - the Sea of Souls/Collective Unconscious and its countless worlds - composed out of the memories and experiences of all living beings (Si), and where several possible universes (Ne) join.

But why do I connect these things with those respective functions? For that, let’s analyze the attitudes:

Extraversion: Arguably, this is the easiest attitude to describe since it’s the most observable one due to its nature. Extraversion is the attitude that focuses on the object and the external world, in the happenings of the moment and things that can happen, as well as its elements and laws. It’s the constant “outpouring” of libido towards the objects, attracting consciousness towards it and establishing an “emotional” (not feeling, though) connection towards them.

Introversion: As Edogawa put it in his class, this attitude is attuned to the personal sphere - to one’s own thoughts, feelings, valorations, sensations, experiences, hunches, and so forth. It’s the attitude that correlates with the internal reality of the person, retaining all libido within the subject itself while withdrawing consciousness from the external world because there’s no clear “emotional” connection with it.

That's essentially the biggest difference: One’s turned to the outside world and everything it has to offer, thereby being mostly public, responsive and ultimately localized in the space and time correspondent to the world (if not necessarily society), adapting and working with it in impeccable ways; the other it’s turned to tself, to their inner world and reality, being more withdrawn, distant, and quite personal to the point they may be unable to adapt to the outside world and will likely have problems working with it.

And really, I need to hammer those points, because extraversion and introversion, in a psychoanalytic way, aren’t about “recharging energy” or “sociability”. They are about the focus of an individual, to where their mind and energy naturally goes. An introverted may be sociable and approachable, maybe even a leader, but they need to work to be able to do so, because that’s not what they naturally are, and maybe they won’t be able to fully go beyond their quiet or reserved attitude; and the contrary happens with an extraverted, needing to work to connect with their own authenticity and individuality, to form a meaning and relationship that exists only in, by and for themselves, with no references to the outside world.

With this in mind, it’s not surprising that I think of the physical and normal world as an extraverted thing, while the Sea of Souls is introverted. In fact, the Collective Unconscious is called “内なる宇宙” in Arena, or “Inner Universe”. This can be further justfed by the fact that introversion, due to its focus on the subject, is “timeless” in a way, existing independently of the external world and only tied to the own subject’s perceptions and judgments - fitting for the timey-wimey nature of the Sea as seen through the entire series.

(However, it’s quite rare for an introvert to be that independent of the outside world. After all, an individual also has a very real and effective unconscious, which balances the conscious attitude with the contrary one, even if it's in a delayed, clumsy and even archaic way)

So now, why sensation for introversion and intuition for extraversion? Well, before the definition, I need to clarify something: The functions are divided into rational ones - Thinking and Feeling - and irrational ones - Sensation and Intuition. They are called that because the rational functions make decisions, while the irrationals only perceive the (internal/external) objects.

Obviously, any individual has a conscious function of each type to perceive a thing and make a decision. Their correlation changes and that’s what determines the nature of a type. However, the existence of a particular and conscious function implies the existence of the other at an unconscious level due to its compensatory nature: conscious thinking implies unconscious feeling and vice versa, conscious sensation implies unconscious intuition and vice versa, and everything attuned to the complementary attitudes of the conscious and unconscious.

Naturally, the Sea of Souls must be an irrational thing. It’s a place. It can’t make any judgment or decision, unlike an individual. But to understand towards which introverted function goes, we need to understand the functions:

Introverted Sensation (Si) is all about concrete sensations, but of internal nature. It doesn’t only have to do with succinct sensations, without any outside input, but also about the impressions they leave within the mind, the qualia of the individual. So not only memories fall in this classification too, but also the recognition of internal and psychic images and processes, just as Extraverted Sensation "detects" outside objects and processes.

Introverted Intuition (Ni) is about the “empty space” of the objects within the internal world of an individual, and the relationship between the contents that lie there. It sees what joins the psychological phenomenons, what creates them - the archetypes themselves, the unconscious patterns of the mind. It sees the relationship and meaning of the internal images of Si, going beyond them as they are nothing but a symbol of something else.

While the direct mention of archetypes could point towards Ni, the Sea of Souls is not itself about relations. Quite the contrary. It’s all about concrete (and symbolic) things regarding the personal, human nature. You can see it in every game, with the distinct worlds it holds as well as the numerous characters and entities that inhabit it, born out of the feelings, thoughts and interpretations of all living beings - about both individual and (somehow) collective qualia.

“Introverted sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, of the primordial images which, in their totality, constitute a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror with the peculiar faculty of reflecting the existing contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but, as it were, sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year-old consciousness might see them.” - Psychological Types

Personas, Shadows, Demons, and Gods - all of them are entities born out of the collective, but ultimately quite personal view of life. Even the archetypes themselves, which should be all about Ni and the meaning of the psychological realm, are written as entities that not only are symbols of certain psychic processes and wishes, but that they themselves are those wishes and processes. Damn, their realm is directly called the “dreamlands” by Igor, and dreams fall 100% under Si since they are full of concrete and internal images, not relations.

And as I said before, a function always implies their contrary, and Introverted Sensation always implies Extraverted Intuition (Ne), which sees the “absence” between physical objects as possibilities and things that can happen: just as internal things are seen as symbols for archetypical things, external objects are seen as indicators of what’s about to happen externally. And Ne fits marvelously with the idea of not only the multiple worlds inhabiting the Sea, but also the very own physical multiverse that exists in the real world - everything that can happen.

Now, in particular, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are described as “incarnations of the collective unconsciousness”, from which every “soul comes from”. By definition, the two of them must have Si and Ne (and the same likely applies to every other antagonist hailing from the Collective Unconscious).

However, it’s obvious they are not the same. Philemon described himself and Nyarla as “sides of the same coin, inseparable from each other”. This tells us that they have not only different types, but contrary and complementary ones - they share the same functions. And I think certain quote on Nyarla’s part is indicative of that... quite indicative, indeed

That's peak Introversion vs Extraversion

In essence, Philemon is the one who slowly, but reliably guides the protagonists, appearing very few times and being ultimately only present as such within the furthest depths of the Collective Unconscious, in the internal reality of life. He is a distant and passive watcher (I), but ultimately being present within the journey of P1 and both P2 as a stable presence (S).

Nyarlathotep, on the other hand, is the tricky, devil figure, only appearing at the end of the games, but with his presence encroaching every point of the story. He’s an “ever-changing” and abstract figure (N), but nobody can deny how he manipulated everything to his favor, and how just overwhelming his presence is (E) in both P2. In fact, one may say that he made the two games happen - an initiating entity, which is certainly more extraverted.

In other words, Philemon is an ISxx, having conscious Si and unconscious Ne, and Nyarlathotep, being his “Shadow”, is an ENxx, having conscious Ne and unconscious Si.

Furthermore, considering what they represent is literally “stagnated unconsciousness” and “chaotic unconsciousness”, it tells us the dominance of their perceiving functions. That’s to say: Philemon is an ISxP, and Nyarlathotep an ENxP.

And guess what? Those types do fit. A consciously dominant Ne is all about the possibilities and futures the outside world holds, jumping from situation to situation without too much waiting - a chaotic mess, right? On the other hand, since a consciously dominant Si implies a fully unconscious - almost inaccessible - Ne, ISxPs can be seen as the most static types, being satisfied with their own perception and impressions of things, without having any desire to express them due to introversion, being lead into a rut and a slow-moving life.

“But since this is the exception, the introvert’s characteristic difficulty in expressing himself also conceals his irrationality. On the contrary, he may be conspicuous for his calmness and passivity, or for his rational self-control.” - Psychological Types.

Marie-Louise (or Emma Jung. I’m not sure who gave the description) described ISxPs as “looking stupid, staring with no reaction and looking like a piece of wood because the impression is being absorbed, falling deeper into the psyche”. I think it fits the passivity of Philemon awfully pretty well.

On the other hand, Nyarlathotep is, as I stated before, the most active between the two. He’s the one who chose the masked circle, Sudou, Jun, the New World Order, Tatsuya and so much more. Yet, he can’t be a rational type because, while having a very clear goal mind, he actually plays with everyone - for him, this is a challenge, a game. Even in EP, when Maya and co. stopped the New World Order, Nyarlathotep didn’t get angry. He laughed at them, and decided to take the matter in his hands in an “amusing” (read: cruel) way… and even there, he gave them “help”, connecting his realm to several stores. And that’s not speaking about his role as the Time Count.

All in all, Nyarla is open to whatever happens and modifies his plans accordingly, without hard feelings (until you defeat him), which fits (N)P better than J. Besides, there’s a interesting detail about him I think fits conscious Ne better than Extraverted Sensation (Se), the perceiving function of the physical world as it’s: while every deity hailing from the Sea can (likely) change their shape, Nyarlathotep abuses that ability to extremes. I think such disposition could be explained by the fact that his extraverted consciousness doesn’t have sensation - a static element - but an intuitive and mutable one, and such he should see (extraverted) sensation as completely irrelevant. In fact, the rumors approach could be considered an extension of this, filling the physical world (Se) with all kinds of crazy happenings and possibilities (Ne).

However, there’s a little bit of a problem here regarding Philemon as ISxP…

“As Jung once noted, for them the future does not exist, future possibilities do not exist, they are in the here and the now, and there is an iron curtain before them. They behave in life as though it will always be the same as it is now; they are incapable of conceiving that things might change.” - Lectures on Jung’s Typology

I don’t have to say that description doesn’t fit that well with Philemon’s belief in human potential. However, I don’t think that’s necessarily a deal breaker.

“Classification does not explain the individual psyche. Nevertheless, an understanding of psychological types opens the way to a better understanding of human psychology in general.” - Jung

Every individual is an exception to the law. And characters are characters. They can be written in every conceivable way, even without consistency. So I think having one or two contradictions but many correlations is good enough.

Besides, Philemon as an SP has its merits too since both P2s are commonly considered to be a “bet” between the him and Nyarla, which fits well with the overall demeanor of SP (artisans) according to Keirsey - optimistic, easy-going, trying to enjoy things, and so forth. However, there’s no mention of any bet in the games per se, but there’s an implication of a “competence” or “battle” between Nyarla and Phil due to their opposite natures, which I think still fits.

Nonetheless, with half of the job done, let’s go to the other functions: the rational ones.

About Morality

Okay, now we can see to which judging dimension they belong… and who am I kidding? Philemon is F and Nyarla is T. I had doubts regarding the perceiving axis (though I think IS and EN are the best fits), but I didn't have such things when it came to seeing the judging one.

As I stated at the beginning, every type has four functions: two conscious, two unconscious. Each of these pairs is composed of a rational function and an irrational one, one of them being dominant and the other being auxiliary - something that helps concretize the “vision” of the dominant. Because that conscious auxiliary function is, well, mostly conscious, some of the common elements associated with it flow into the “characterization” of the type. For example, ISxJs (auxiliary Si) may have problems at the moment of changing or having new ideas, but not at the same level that ISxPs, and the same with ENxJs, which are wasteful as well as “animated”, but in more controlled (classic J vs P) ways than ENxPs.

So, in a nutshell, we need to find the second, most close function to Phil and Nyarla… and Nyarla fits the NT temperament terrifyingly well. The “rational” are seen as cold, skeptical, analytical, complex, strategic, strong-willed, pragmatic, ingenious, and focused on systems and their betterment - all of them fit to a T (pun not intended) with Nyarla. In fact, all of his plans - including P1 and the rumor of the holy lance - seem to have some sort of “systemic complexity”, piling up constantly between each other and creating a “wicked web” as Philemon described it.

“Because their hunger for achievement presses them constantly, Rationals live through their work. For them, work is work and play is work. Condemning an NT to idleness would be the worst sort of punishment. However, Rationals work not so much for the pleasure of action (like the Artisans), nor for the security a job provides (like the Guardians), nor for the joy of helping others (like the Idealists). Rationals work with a single-minded desire to achieve their objectives; indeed, once involved in a project, they tend to be reluctant, if not unable, to limit their commitment of time and energy.” - Please Understand Me II

While I think that it may be a bit too “serious” for Nyarlathotep, it fits well with everything I said before. There’s also how Nyarlathotep called himself the “ultimate obstacle”, both as the Great Father and as the Shadow of all humanity, which fits with the relationship of the rational temperament to the concept of challenge, just as he also seems to want to be challenged.

“Heh heh… I’ll cut the entertainment off here. Now, hurry and return to the waking world. Oppose me not as my avatar but as me in the flesh as soon as possible." - Nyarlathotep, Tatsuya's Scenario.

Now, from a functional perspective, it also makes sense. If he’s an NT, that will make him an ENTP, an Ne - Te - Fi - Si. That’s to say, he has Extraverted Thinking (Te) as his auxiliary function, and this is kinda important, since conscious Te implies unconscious Introverted Feeling (Fi):

Fi is a feeling, rational function, and such it judges according to what’s agreeable and moral. But that morality/agreeableness is not dependent on what the outside and external world says or behaves, unlike Extraverted Feeling (Fe) and its judgment according to society and the “moment”, but entirely personal. It doesn’t seek any (physical/material) benefit, but an encompassing sensation of goodness independent of everything else. However, it’s a deeply personal and reserved judgment (introversion in general), unlike the openness, popularity and shared agreement of Fe.

Te, thereby, is a judging function entirely focused on the external world, on an objective analysis of the situation and the logical conclusions that follow. It doesn’t give any moral judgment, but a practical one, determining and delimiting what exists in the external world - it tells you what the physical presences and objects are. But as I said, it also gives a person a conclusion created through the synthesis of what’s registered on the outside, something that must be done.

In other words, Te is the objective, scientific judgment that differentiates everything on the outside - laws, rules theories, (external) logic - and Fi is the personal, moral judgment that’s independent of the outside. And such, if one is conscious, the other is going to be repressed into the unconscious, seen as “separated” from oneself and possibly from the world itself, and that’s the important thing: the repression and separation.

Obviously, I doubt Nyarlathotep really represses anything, Persona 4 style. However, nobody can deny that he doesn’t believe in humanity and the potential they hold. He’s all about denying it, “showing” and pointing out the logical contradictions of humans (especially those visible and acted upon ones, which points to both thinking and extraversion), something that definitely coincides with conscious Te and unconscious Fi.

“Because of the highly impersonal character of the conscious attitude, the unconscious feelings are extremely personal and oversensitive, giving rise to secret prejudices—a readiness, for instance, to misconstrue any opposition to his formula as personal ill-will, or a constant tendency to make negative assumptions about other people in order to invalidate their arguments in advance—in defense, naturally, of his own touchiness. His unconscious sensitivity makes him sharp in tone, acrimonious, aggressive. Insinuations multiply. His feelings have a sultry and resentful character—always a mark of the inferior function. Magnanimous as he may be in sacrificing himself to his intellectual goal, his feelings are petty, mistrustful, crotchety, and conservative.” - Psychological Types

Again, maybe a bit too extreme to fully fit Nyarla, but that’s because it’s speaking about a consciously dominant Te - ExTJ - instead of auxiliary Te - ExTP. Due to the somewhat more “unconscious” Te and more “conscious” Fi, an ExTP may be more forgiving about people because they can understand more clearly their intentions and morality, their inherent “goodness”, along with how those relate with their actions… Though in Nyarlathotep’s case, he uses that more nuanced vision to mess with and break people, sometimes outright cheating.

And besides, as a general rule, F-types are (seen as) nicer or more “human” than T-types, and I don’t think I’ve to really explain why Nyarla is not… even nice at all. Elegant and charismatic? Yes. Just trying to be nice? Hell no.

So, with all of this, then Philemon must be the contrary: He’s the more “human” between the two, the kinder, understanding one, and such he’s F. Specifically, an ISFP, an Si - Fi - Te - Ne.

As I previously said, having Te and Fi as auxiliaries - one conscious and unconscious - allows an individual to have a better understanding and more nuanced view over the intentions of others and their actions. However, someone who has conscious Fi, just by having Feeling, has more appreciation for the intentions of people and will be more forgiving than someone who has conscious Te (though in a practical level, personal experiences play an important role too), explaining one of the fundamental differences between them: Nyarlathotep focuses more in the contradiction between the morality of a person and its actions, devaluing them in that basis (T over F), while Philemon, likely admitting the cruelty of humanity, puts more emphasis on the intentions than on the actions (F over T), seeing them as reflection of human’s capacity to become “perfect” and “whole” - a concept that may be related to Si as well.

“We could say that introverted sensation transmits an image which does not so much reproduce the object as spread over it the platina of age-old subjective experience and the shimmer of events still unborn. The bare sense impression develops in depth, reaching into the past and future, while extraverted sensation seizes on the momentary existence of things open to the light of day.” - Psychological Types

It doesn’t perceive only the momentary sensation and presence of the object like Se, but the reflection of the collective images - the primordial contents of the unconscious - within those sensations, even if they don’t fully understand it (nor necessarily care about such things). Thereby, in that sensation the potentialities of the unconscious are imprinted, and its manifestations are perceived and felt in a deeply personal and intimate way.

Within this in mind, it’s no wonder why Philemon believes in humanity: their capacity to do good is interpreted by him as a potential to become whole, incarnations and symbols of the collective memory of life - auxiliary Fi, the sense of “subjective” morality, supporting and reflecting dominant Si, the “subjective” (but quite timeless) perception of sensations and objects. One could also extrapolate this to Nyarlathotep, where this axis is unconscious and thus interpreted as “distant”, maybe even “impossible��; on the other hand, his Ne and Te axis could be represented on his capacity to see all the possibilities in which an individual (or humanity in general) can fall, and then acting upon those (and sometimes just abandoning them altogether).

And as extra, Fi is described as follows in “Psychological Types”:

“Its aim is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images. It is continually seeking an image which has no existence in reality, but which it has seen in a kind of vision.”

Naturally, we don’t know very much about Philemon’s history nor particular motivations (if he even needs them due to his nature as a personified aspect of the Sea), but I like to think that particular description of Fi is in some way related to his search for human wholeness - something that can we can say is actually hard, since only two people (that in actually may be just the “same being”) have reached it. However, I don’t think Philemon is an IxFJ, since he isn’t “unrelated”, cold or “banal” enough to qualify for me, nor it fits what I previously said about his relation to the Sea.

Conclusions

There’s not much for me to say here. I just thought it was interesting seeing a couple of contrastive types on a series that has already made references to that concept, besides my own attempt at trying to formulate my thoughts and understanding of the matter. I don’t think myself expert on the topic, so I think there may be some mistakes here and there - especially regarding the interpretation of Philemon’s goal. But overall, I’m satisfied with the result.

As some notes regarding other typings within the series:

Nyarlathotep shares types with characters like Elizabeth and professor Edogawa. Obviously, those two are more common representations of the type.

Philemon shares types with characters like Fuuka, Theodore, and maybe even Yosuke (though an argument could be made for him being an ENFP).

Igor could be an ISFJ, so that would make him a good foil for Philemon's unconditioned belief in humanity, being more cautious and skeptical - more J than P. This is better seen in “Tsumi to Batsu”, where he doubted giving humanity the Black and Red Books is a good idea, but ultimately relented.

On the same line, Yaldabaoth would be some sort of ExTJ, likely ENTJ due to the Si-nature of the Sea, making him a foil towards Nyarla. Where Yaldabaoth prepares himself in all ways to fulfill his goal (Te over Ne), Nyarla sees all possibilities and plays with them (Ne over Te).

And as a final comment: Outside of all the controversies and discussions about the validity of Jung’s theory, characters aren’t people. They are characters. They are constructed, played with, and written in diverse and sometimes contradictory ways. That’s to say, they don’t nor will ever have a type. At most, they can approach or represent them, but they won’t ever have the same depth and dynamicity as a human being. Their attitudes and actions can be interpreted in many ways (and that may be the point sometimes), so they can always be assigned different (but close) types.

#persona 2 spoilers #persona 2 innocent sin #persona 2 eternal punishment #philemon #nyarlathotep #persona 2

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