#people using pronouns that go against society's norm for me??

[greenteaandtattoos]

It was fancy dress up day at work a couple weeks ago and I don't do dresses or skirts so I wore a button-up and dress pants with a belt and I was subbing in the class next door and the teacher accidentally uses he/him pronouns and right after she stops, blinks a couple times, and goes, "Oh now I'm using he/him pronouns. I'm sorry. You're so masculine today." and my relationship with masculinity is a strange one but holy shit it's been ages since anyone called me by he/him pronouns, especially accidentally, and while I prefer they/them pronouns, it was such a rush. One of that I haven't felt in a long time.

[transenbyconfessions]

TW: self-deprecation

I'm agender. It's so hard.

I'm starting to come out to my friends, and the reply I get most of the time is "ok cool" or "I don't think it changes anything" which is. great. i am grateful that they accept me and don't look down on me, but i want it to matter. I want it to be a big deal. i want them to see me differently, i want them to ask questions. Because no matter how many times I come out, they will just say that it's okay and forget about it, and I won't have the heart to try to remind them.

I don't pass. I don't want to pass. I don't know what it means to pass as agender. I like my voice, and I like my body, but I still have so so much social dysphoria. I wish i accepted myself, and I wish I could bravely go against gender norms, but it's just so hard. I don't want to hate myself. I don't want suffering to be the only proof of my identity.

Understanding myself is hard. Figuring out how I'm comfortable presenting is also hard. And I know and respect that binary trans folks also struggle a lot, and so much more in other aspects of life than I am, but sometimes I wish I would just be trans because. i would have a goal in mind. I would have gender euphoria. I could explain it to people. I think it's easier for others to see someone as a woman/man and refer to them by their pronouns because people are already familiar with it. It's easier to be at peace with your own identity because you understand it. If someone was to ask me about my gender now, there's nothing I could even say. like. no matter which pronouns you use I will still feel uncomfortable. There's no right way about it. I will not be recognised legally. I don't belong in any social group. I can't just be "with the boys" or "with the girls". There is no place for me in society, and I feel so lonely. I want to cry. I want someone to see me for who I am.

Submitted May 31, 2023

[liefdesleven]

reading gods worst article on tma (Narrating the (Queer) Gothic in the Podcast The Magnus Archives, Maria Juko) and its so bad that its funny. btw this got published in a book (Rethinking Gothic Transgressions of Gender and Sexuality, edited by sarah faber and kerstin-anja münderlein, 2024) and I can only assume the editors didn't listen to tma themselves because good lord what are these takes. come with me as I read this mess

strong start when it claims the entities seek to torture and destroy humanity. patently untrue. we know they have some sentience, but the focus on humanity does a disservice to gerry explicitly saying "you think people are so special its only our fear that counts?". also "destroy". how are you going to get fear if the entirety of humanity is destroyed. we know what the entities wanted (or at least what the web wanted) it is explicitly stated in mag 200. it says so right there so explicitly that I find it impressive if Juko missed it.

calls the beholding the antagonist? if you want to call Any fear the antagonist id go for the web, but even then, antagonist is not the role id ascribe to a lovecraftian entity

"with the podcast’s final season set in a world dominated by the Eye that Jon et al. ultimately overcome to save the world" / "The world comes to depend on [jonmartins] relationship, with the two of them becoming queer heroes." save the world??? heroes?

4. stupidly funny implications. interesting citation for georgie but that's not important right now. the point is the fight against evil and the reading alleging tma says being queer will get you Heroic Powers. Juko's forgetting about the queer characters that get Evil Powers (all of them. all of the powers are evil. that's the point.) did the archivist utilize ace and bi power when he became the lynchpin of the apocalypse and tortured strangers

5. "As a case in point, inclusivity starts at the level of casting: female police officer Basira Hussain is voiced by Frank Voss, who uses they/them pronouns." very true but idk. frank voss and jonny sims are just pals, ill allow Some implications from this but the author is using it to imply more intentional focus on inclusivity then I think jonny was doing

6. "First, the podcast’s main character, the asexual biromantic Jon, is bestowed with supernatural powers, challenging not just heterosexual but all sexual norms of society." BESTOWED? stop using the word bestowed here oh my God. he is not a superhero!! did Juko listen to the entirety of tma without any moral grayness happening here??? also ?? jons bestowed supernatural powers are in no way related to his asexuality & biromanticism??

7. christ. this isnt a bad tma take but it is reminding me why I wanted to quit my literature analysis bachelor

8. did jon utilize ace and bi power when he betrayed martin. did martin utilize gay power when he stabbed jon. jesus christ what do you mean humanity's salvation. the apocalypse isnt fixed at the end by the power of love.

9. i guess? if you felt like it? tma really isn't a queer narrative in my option but I guess?? you could read it like that. if you wanted to. I'm unsure if you should though because these people are deeply unwell

10. "And particularly in the first seasons, Jon and his colleagues often fail to control the evil entities, losing for example colleague Tim at the end of the second season, which leads to a rift between some of the Institute’s members" yeah because truly they were thriving before that. they were the bestest of friends before tim died. they all held hands and danced in circles

11. unsure how much longer i can take this. this isn't the X-Men

12. "[Jon] could be defined as an asexual biromantic who uses his love for Martin as a form of power to save the world." no he couldn't. next

13. "With this in mind, Jon’s exploration of the Archives becomes a metaphor for accepting his (a)sexuality." HUH. NO IT ISNT? jons asexuality isn't relevant narratively At All. go home.

14. for the love of god can anyone hear me. its so dark in here. were the beholding and jonah magnus asexuality allies when they helped jon become an avatar. the sentence after this calls jon the hero of the narrative again btw. patently untrue

15. "Only by accepting his power can Jon save the world." jon didn't save the world.

Juko discusses melanie & georgie but her takes on them are pretty normal and decent in my opinion. if anyone wants a pdf of this horror let me know & ill send it. I'm so annoyed I'm considering writing an email about this. btw it called jonmartin "enemies to lovers" trope and also said their relationship "starts heteronormative and changes to a more equal footing, whilst retaining heteronormative elements". about the gay couple.

to conclude: I don't know which podcast juko listened to about a heroic narrative about queer love that saves the world, but its not the magnus archives. did you know that the eye is an asexuality ally?

[mycochaotix]

My “real”nonbinary friends and fam, please read this and tell me your thoughts!!! —r/nonbinary user commented:

“I feel that Blair White and others like her are calling out bad behavior and demanding personal accountability. We all can live our lives as we see fit, but demanding nullification of sexual orientation in relation to one's gender or having a melt down over misgender pronouns without self realization about how we present ourselves is narcissistic and provides our detectors against the lgbt+ community with reason to vilify us.

Non-binary people are not the problem, to be clear. It's people who believe being non-binary qualifies them for special victimhood status and who go on public forums to decry society's ills for not recognizing their non-binary lifestyle on sight that creates this negativity.

If you know you are emotionally mature enough to get through your day and live your truth without being angry someone isn't into you or that the days your presentation may lean one way or the other on the gender spectrum and gracefully correct and move on, you know you aren't the problem.”

- they were downvoted many times when I saw rhe comment, so I asked chatgpt why and replied to them:

“Asked ChatGPT why your comment is being downvoted, it said: “This comment appears to express a negative view towards individuals, particularly non-binary people, who assert their gender identity and seek recognition. The use of terms like "meltdown" and the implication that asserting ‘one's gender identity is narcissistic’ may be perceived as dismissive or transphobic by some. “ 🤷🏽”

- they responded to my comment with:

“I mean, if you like feel that someone crying over a stranger at a fast food restaurant calling them "Ma'am" while taking their order on Tik Tok is good representation, we're at an impasse. That's not real life and it doesn't represent real non-binary people.

Edit: More importantly, if we ourselves do not call out bad behavior in our own community and ensure that negative representation isn't the only viewable commodity, we're practically committing self harm.”

- i replied with:

“Up until this comment, I havent made a personal belief claim about your comments. Just saw you being downvoted and wanted to understand why :) hence why I asked chatgpt.

Honestly, your comment reflects that you seem to be trying to police or gatekeep what anyone gets offended by. Why does that matter. Most non binary people i know are too concerned about being hate crimed to actually get offended at a mcdonalds worker incorrectly assuming their gender… much less asserting their correct pronouns when being misgendered.

Your use of “real non binary people” is quite problematic tbh. I think you may have an insulated understanding of Queer people thats influencing your perspective in an unhelpful way. Im a real non binary person and I disagree with your perspective and characterization of non binary people. Your edit is something im not comfortable addressing specifically tbh, I process it as problematic and not worth pursuing as you seem set in your beliefs.

Your feelings, and mine, and whatever queer scapegoat you are bringing up from tiktok, all matter and are valid. You dont know the trauma history of the person who is offended at being misgendered. To be misgendered is uncomfortable, especially for trans folkx and especially for those who are aware of the insane, incessant gender norms, mores and expectations on us at all times.

Calling out bad behavior is fine, but looking at situations empathetically, and from as many perspectives as you can, is going to aid you on identifying behavior thats could be a meaningful change to call out , and behavior that you just dont like and want to stop someone from doing because of your discomfort.”

—

Queer, and specifically: Transfam, please tell me if im far off here … or what yall think!

-mcx

———

update:

[hardheaded-municipalist]

[agender + cis guy] dysphoria (bigender, I suppose)

I just see fields of different amounts of shit when I look at the gender landscape.

Libido

Hard to tell if this is an asexual-dysphoria thing or an agender-dysphoria thing. I enjoy reading books or playing video games at night. This gets in the way and it just makes me feel extremely frustrated. There is no proper NEED that my body is making me fulfill... It just reminds me that I have to do bullshit upkeep that makes me uncomfortable. I really do not care for masturbation. I would go at least several weeks without doing it ideally. It just feels like I get a higher dose than I want.

Solution: Progestorone.

Reproductive functions

Hard to tell if this is an asexual-dysphoria thing, a child-free thing, or an agender-dysphoria thing. I really fuckin hate that my body has entered itself into the reproduction game of human society. I have genetic conditions that I'd like a person to never inherit. People have described "sex is beautiful because it's how we create" and I just want to get away from that quote as far as I possibly can.

Solution: Vasectomy.

Facial hair

I don't mind facial hair, tbh. It's just very annoying to have to shave/scissor-cut to maintain a very annoying amount of hair. If I had permanent light stubble, I'd prefer it.

Solution: Laser therapy.

Gendered name

The given name is {male}. I just want to forget that gender is a meaningful divide in the world I live in...

Solution: New gender-neutral name.

Preference for mixed-gender friendship groups

I prefer having friendship groups that are mixed-gender, so that gender isn't a common feature, because I inevitably do not quite relate to that stuff.

Solution: Make more mixed-gender friendship groups.

Role reversal

I do feel cis... in this way: dipping toes into gender norms only to transgress against them... Despite the fact that I am hetero, I feel straight culture reinforces gender norms. I hate it so fucking much.

Solution: Ace role reversal romance, when???

Crossdressing

I do feel cis... in this way: dipping toes into gender norms only to transgress against them... Despite the fact that I am cis... if I were in a relationship with someone else, proper crossdressing (not just androgyny) would be fun. [Only to dip toes for me... They can do what they want.]

Solution: Ace role reversal romance, when???

Androgynous clothing

I prefer clothing that is androgynous/gender-neutral/genderless. I just want to forget that gender is a meaningful divide in the world I live in...

Solution: more androgynous clothing

Pronouns

I want to forget gendered pronouns exist. I would prefer there was only one set of pronouns, so I don't have to ponder this question. I guess I'm used to [he] at the moment. I think with certain people I know well, I'll eventually prefer [they]. These agender thoughts are pretty private to me, and I don't currently have such a preference.

Solution: Keep an eye on this, yet to be determined. TLDR = TBA.

Genitals

Penis is good for peeing. Point and shoot. Nice and simple. Thoughts about not having a penis are kind of... terrifying. I'd carry a "female urination device" around with me in a backpack if I had to.

Solution: Keep things as they are.

Breasts

Seem to be more trouble than they're worth. Having to remember to wash more clothing seems like a pain.

Solution: Keep things as they are.

Softer skin, smoother hair, other HRT effects

Neutral. I don't care about this stuff.

Solution: Keep things as they are.

Shoulder hair

I don't know if this is an agender thing or a me thing. What The Fuck is shoulder hair????? two small patches on the skin above the shoulder [specifically the skin above the acromion]. One patch for each shoulder.

Solution: Hair removal cream. Waxing. Laser therapy.

[waterdeepthroat]

for the pride oc ask game, 5 and 6 for lottie!

tysm!

5. How did you figure out your oc’s identity?

So, Lottie was my first BG3 OC, and she was kind of the character I used to fuck around? Idk. I knew I wanted her to be pansexual and just really really horny because that was before any of the news came out about which characters were polyamorous, so I was trying to figure that out for myself, and I wanted to trigger every single romance option I could. Over the course of the game they slept with Lae’zel, Astarion, Shadowheart, Mizora, the Emperor, Haarlep, and the drow twins (I forgot to end the shadow curse in act 2 so she never got Halsin lmao). Her being transfemme was also a complete accident on my part- I remember messing around and trying to see all of the genital options and I planned to just leave her with the default, but I forgot and actually got jumpscared the first time I took off her armour lol. It was a surprise but I was just kinda like, “fuck it, I’ll roll with it.” So, tl;dr, Lottie is transfemme because I accidentally gave them Penis B and then I just decided to work it into their backstory. Unfortunately I don’t have a better answer than that- pretty much everything about Lottie was me accidentally sticking shit to the wall and just going with it. (Lottie was always supposed to be some form of non-binary though, because I chose they/them pronouns in-game and was overall just really excited to hear what that sounded like in a video game.)

6. How does your oc feel about labels? Theirs, or in general?

I was actually talking to Mac on Discord yesterday (if you’re reading this hiiii) about Forgotten Realms slang and the weird homophobia/transphobia that pops up, despite this being a world where bisexuality is the norm, trans people supposedly aren’t discriminated against (with the exceptions of some highly gendered societies, like the Drow and possibly Rashemen). But Lottie is from Luskan, originally, which doesn’t seem to have any particular word for trans and pan people, so I’m just going to go with the whole Realms equivalent. They would identify as sildur (an elven loan word meaning trans, but with some kinda weird implications that we’re gonna ignore) but not poised (the general Realms word for people who haven’t “finished” transitioning, which is used by other people to describe someone, which gives me the ick for obvious reasons). Since bisexuality/pansexuality is the norm, I wouldn’t assume Lottie would make that a huge part of her identity, though she could also be considered a wild one or thaethiira (someone who uses kinky magic in bed, specifically transmutation magic). Overall, Lottie is just a very proud kind of person, so I’d imagine they’d be pretty up-front about being sildur if it came up (as it would have to their many, many partners) and would feel very attached to that label. However, being called poised would piss her off, and she’d take it to mean that the work she’d put in to appear more feminine wasn’t “good enough” for people.

[mermaidsirennikita]

ARC Review: Something Spectacular by Alexis Hall

5/5. Releases 4/11/2023.

For when you're vibing with... Queer romance, gender nonconformity, general hilarity and hope, found family vibes, and people who rarely get shine from historical romances taking center stage.

Peggy is in a tight spot: Arabella, her childhood friend and the woman she's in love with, has asked for her help to woo Orfeo, the famous castrato soprano visiting London. Unable to deny Arabella anything, Peggy complies--only to find that rather than resenting Orfeo, she's captivated with them. Just like Peggy, Orfeo is doesn't conform to gender norms, living on the edges of society. And in them, Peggy could find more than just attraction--but a soul-deep connection.

Man, this one was fucking something. Really daring, hilarious, sexy, and emotionally touching. Alexis Hall keeps making me happy as a reader, and I wholeheartedly adore this book.

Quick Takes:

--I've always been fascinated by the history of castrati, in part because there is a lot of ambiguity in the subject. Most (?) castrati were forcibly castrated or coerced into castration as children. While stories of accidents and illnesses were often given to justify the castration, usually the choice was not theirs--but undeniably, there were doors open to castrati, some of which, like Farinelli (who's referenced in this book) became famous, wealthy, and adored for their incredible voices. They also lost the ability to sire children, became seen as freakish or odd to some, and lived in this sort of... gray area of a very binary (on the surface) society. Alexis Hall doesn't shy away from all that Orfeo has suffered, and there's a lot of trauma going on, clearly. But he also doesn't make Orfeo this sob story of a character, this self-loathing nonbinary person. Orfeo is gorgeous, physically and emotionally, and they love their art. They clearly didn't have a choice about it--but that doesn't make the love any less valid, and Peggy does not pity them, does not turn them into some "half-man". She adores them, as she should. And they adore her.

--Peggy's gender identity is (though she uses she/her pronouns) fluid. The connection that she and Orfeo make, neither one of them a man or a woman, is really profound and something you don't often see in fiction. It's that camaraderie they have, not only with each other but their entire circle of friends (not a straight person in sight) that makes the novel so magical... Aside from the absolute gut punch of a romance that lingers between Orfeo and Peggy. Their connection is instantaneous (Peggy literally faints when she hears Orfeo sing for the first time, and Peggy is not a swooner) but it's not insta-love. Their bond grows over time, and even after it becomes physical, there's some real emotional work that has yet to be done.

--One thing I was concerned about going into this book was whether Orfeo's status as nonbinary (I've seen them specifically referred to as agender in other reviews, but I'm not 100% sure about where Alexis stands on this) would feel.... clumsily-done. In other words--is Orfeo only NB because they were castrated against their will? My interpretation, ultimately, was no; but the conflict this causes Orfeo is not avoided. They ask these questions themself. Were they always meant to be this way, or are they this way because of what happened to them? Does it matter? I personally saw Orfeo's identity as something that was a very literally a combination of who they are within (their soul) and how society has shaped them. And I think Alexis Hall confronted that conflict and reality very sensitively. But I say all of this as a cis woman, and I would be interested to see how people who aren't cis feel about it.

--I have an issue with how the romance community sometimes deals with past relationships and the conflicts they can naturally cause. You often see reviews that give actual trigger warnings for "OW/OM drama" and that just... It's fine to not like that, but acting like it's a trigger is a bit much--and I think that if we shun past loves and the conflicted feelings they can give characters, even when the relationships were toxic, we lose a lot of nuance.

Something Spectacular is a great example of why that kind of past can be important in romance. We see past relationships as issues for both Peggy and Orfeo, and they deal with them in very different ways. One of the most heart-clutching, gut-wrenching moments of the novel involves this kind of "drama". I think there's a lot of emotional honesty in this book, testifying to the chokehold that exes--or not-so-exes--can have on us, whether the relationship is healthy or not. And this drama does lead to one of my favorite romance novel reunions ever. There's RAIN DRAMA.

--The world of the book is delightful, consciously anachronistic and fun and full of cool people lazing about, seducing each other, attending operas like they're rock concerts, and having rather hysterical poetry slams that turn into.... other things. Alexis Hall writes with zero sense of pretentiousness or self-consciousness, and I think that's what we need more of in historical romance. I imagine it would be hard to come away from this book without wanting to read more of Alexis's novels, and certainly Something Fabulous.

--Not to spoil anything, but... This book confronts the concept of queer families, especially in the context of its world, in a way that I didn't expect and don't see a lot of in romance. I fucking loved it. That's all.

The Sex Stuff:

This is a sexy book. (She ain't called Peggy for nothing--name is destiny.) As soon as Orfeo and Peggy begin interacting, the sparks are real, and their sex life is quite literally bangin'. Alexis Hall does a really good job of writing sex scenes in a way that is explicit and romantic without getting bioessentialist or describing bodies in a way that is super gendered. Peggy is sensitive about her body and goes back and forth about how she feels about her breasts, and that's brought up. There's a wonderful scene of dialogue around how Orfeo, with their somewhat unique body makeup and history, experiences pleasure and how they've often been expected to "serve" rather than taking fulfillment themselves. (Peggy's reaction to this is gorgeous.) It's also just really hot. And the final sex scene in this book? Is crazy good. Hot hot hot. Something I have quite literally never read in a romance before, not in this exact form.

Here's the thing--you can write romance novels about marginalized communities and people who've experienced trauma without depriving their love stories of joy and humor and sex and swoony romance. Alexis Hall underlined that with A Lady for a Duke last year, and he did it again with Something Spectacular. Read it.

Thanks to Montlake and Netgalley for providing me with a copy of this book. My opinions are all my own.

[liliallowed]

In the context of an earlier post you made that I may not be seeing? About gendered terms and how you think that we just. Shouldn't have like specific pronouns? (If I'm getting it correct- apologies if not!!)

I'm personally any pronouns, agender, because I genuinely do not care about how I'm percieved. However I am also aware that some people feel a lot safer and more secure in categories- Homosapiens as a race, I believe, are pack bonders after all.

But people feel... more accepted when they're placed into part of society that feels far more comfortable to them. It's difficult to explain what I mean through words, but it's just... how people see themselves?

Meh. it's hard to describe. Some people dislike [insert certain pronouns] due to it not aligning with how they see themselves (how they are). Some people don't like being seen as [gender] because it brings back traumatic memories.

I am also of the opinion that gendered terms are very weird and I lack understanding of why they are necessary in life in general, but I also understand that people feel more comfortable with certain terms because it reflects who they are.

I don't know whether this is completely out of context or if I am failing miserably in interpretating anything you've said (if so!! Massive apologies- completely unintended and none of this was meant to be like. In a negative way at all sgshshdshdgg)

But yeah I dunno, some people just prefer things because it's a reflection of who they are and getting referred to as something else can be deeply uncomfortable for them- especially if they're in an unstable area mentally or their self image isn't great

Feel free to! Completely ignore this rant and absolutely disagree with me if you do

~ 😔Anon

nono it's actually pretty on point!

because like I did mention in that post in hold letters that my take is biased and quite possibly based on personal experience. so it may not be true for all people.

I think the reason I don't really get it is... because the idea of being accepted shouldn't be some grand gesture. heck I think it's fucked up that people even have to "come out" in the first place... that people even NEED TO be split into trans or cis. why does it... matter?

like before you can figure out if you're a boy or a girl or any other gender , and what society deems counts into those boxes... shouldn't you be worrying about who you are as a PERSON first?

I'll be honest I had a really deep conversation from a visiting relative and asked her opinion on the trans gender inclusivity there.

I came to the conclusion that true acceptance comes from NOT necessarily positive support but... a lack of invasive questioning?

bro you go by (insert pronouns)? okay I'll just go on with my day. cool.

if people don't call you that it doesn't mean you're NOT (insert pronoun). you have nothing to prove to anyone not even yourself. you don't even have to know your sexuality! you just gotta know if the you like the person or not.

like I feel like I an idea society being queer is just the whole LGBTQIA+but like without exclusion. without being stigmatized again as a result of trying to break old cishet normative relationships...

I feel like even THIS is still flawed. the LGBTQIA+ community... like... I know people want to feel included but shouldn't saying "I'm queer" be enough?

why do people need to prove their identity do much?

wouldn't people feel safer if it was normalized instead of just positive acceptance? like if I were to come out as ace or lesbian to my parents they don't care they won't even react to it and just shrug.

coming out really shouldn't be a big deal? ideally of course... I know how it feels to hide something from people. specially if I know they actively hate (insert queer) people. for me? I've just learned to shut my mouth and repress it because freedom of speech ISN'T a right here.

any word you say can be used against you you can genuinely get into trouble for even speaking about stuff like that.

am I being too callous? too grim? like those old Grandpas that go: back in my day everything was horrible you youngsters are so fragile.

and this isn't true because you CAN'T compare pain. there is no bigger or smaller pain. which means I'm the one being judgemental but I can't really help it. I genuinely can't understand why people can't keep it to themselves because that's how I've learned to live all my life.

keep quiet. avoid spilling my true thoughts... avoid friends because I'm terrified of being outed... and it's depressing but like... I still have my Tumblr!...

it sounds pathetic. after all I'm probably a caged bird squawking at all the other birds flying and fighting not to be caged telling them to "just get over it"

I'm sorry. I just... don't understand. I support you guys. I believe you guys. I just don't... understand it but I trust you. I trust you're in pain I trust you're scared and I understand there's always pressure on you.

I just... I don't wanna ber perceived. I don't wanna interact or cause any conflict. if I'm insulted or just called random names I just... scurry away like a mouse.

unless it's someone I care about.

then I fucking lose my shit 😂.

like again I can't understand it it's just how I am and I'm different because I don't associate my identity to words... being misgendered never really felt... like it had any impact to it?

being called young lady however definitely did have implications of expectations behind it.

is it like that? I think I kinda get it. it is kinda insulting. I can imagine it but... do you like argume with every person who catcalls you on the street? at this point it's not really worth it UNLESS THAT PERSON IS IMPORTANT TO YOU ABD THEIR OPINION MATTERS.

a strangers opinion of you doesn't matter. not everyone agrees and if they don't you shouldn't expect them to.

cuz I'm definitely not a lady 😂.

I feel like it's like that right? kinda?

but even so if someone calls me a lady it's just not WORTH explaining everything and it's too much trouble to get them to call me something else.

idk man. I think people are kinda... overreacting to something really trivial and needlessly politicizing it?

heck it make more sense for people to be decided by liking green tea or dark tea because of their taste.

that's how stupid the situation sounds to me.

bro who the fuck cares. it's just TEA. WHY ARE YOU CALLING IT THE GREEN TEAISM AND CHAI IDEOLOGY. BRO. WTF.

and yes it's not like green tea lovers are being discriminated against. the discrimination is indeed very real and it's important to note that people in the minority are treated as the odd ones out despite having an equally valid experience of a human being.

... I'm talking about the argument itself. like who CARES what's in your pants!? who cares if children want to be called something? they're kids! and even so pronouns literally are just words... children don't need to think about gender identity and I don't think actual queer folk even PUSH them to without them coming to it naturally.

but some people push the narrative that they DO.

and the ones on the friking other side! BRO YOU ARE NOT FUCKING HELPING. we wanna normalize this shit not turn it into a war! what are you doing. you're fanning the flames just let it FADE. this needless sensitivity is YOUR FAULT FOR MAKING A BIG DEAL OF SOMETHING that should've just been accepted as it was without any... ideology or blue or red pill associated to it.

WTF DOES WOKE EVEN MEAN. WHAT DOES THE OPPOSITE MEAN. I'M SO FUCKING CONFUSED.

I don't think people understand just how complicated this shit is and how the trans community is being used as an excuse to cover up actual problems like global warming n inflation. I fucking hate this shit show so much.

I think as a nonbinary person I do have a right to be angry that things aren't just normalized but a trend.

my fucking identity is treated like trend. and I blame BOTH sides for this. not just the biggots but also ally's who acted out of ignorance acted with emotions before thinking.

for things to change stuff has to be planned and managed. this ain't how you do it fam.

I'm not from America. my queer father's and mother's didn't have to die for the price of inclusion or freedom so... what do I know...

but I am angry. angry that it can be so GREAT for people like me there... but people are ruining what so many people shed tears and blood to build.

I guess... I'm just frustrated. at everyone.

everything just feels so... loud while saying very little. simplistic meaning. I've seen both sides ..

I'm tired of conflict.

I'm tired of being used as an excuse.

I'm tired of there being a need to pick a "side".

you're either supportive of trans people or you're a transphob...

I support them but I don't agree with this viewpoint. I think you can just be completely apathetic.

does that mean the person thinks trans people shouldn't exist? no. do they think they should? also no.

them: I literally don't care. all I know is you shouldn't beat or be mean to someone if they disagree with you. trans or not. and people should be held accountable for their actions. trans or not. it doesn't matter to me if it exists or not. in fact my opinion as a stranger should not matter to you. live your life. stop relying on my answer. define it yourself.

and we were supposed to learn that in kindergarten.

I'm told I will find my people... and that's enough for me.

[worms-in-my-brain]

Why do you assume I’m tme? Why do you equate being transmasc with being strictly tme?

I am transfemasc. And, for the record, if I go with the supposed definition of tme/tma, I am tma. I am a genderfluid person who is often a woman who transmisogyny impacts as a DIRECT target.

Also why are you assuming this person was cis? They were not. Their pronouns were they/them. I may not agree with them, but please don’t misgender them. Also, everything you’re saying now is the exact type of thing I saw on their blog. At this point you might as well go seek them out, it sounds like you agree more with them than me.

I also don’t like the implication that no cis person can care about trans people. Many cis people do.

Also this is in no way saying anything about my transfem sisters and siblings. In the post above, I never once said that other transfem people have made me feel unsafe—yes, some have, (i.e. baeddels), but the problem I’m talking about is not a problem with transfems, it is a problem with the way society at large treats feminism. Importantly, this tendency is FAR more common among cis people than it is among both transmascs and transfems.

To finally address your first point… yes, transmisogyny is indeed a unique form of oppression that is distinct from both the overarching concept of transphobia and the specific concept of transandrophobia as the intersection of transphobia, misogyny, and antimasculism as it applies to trans men and mascs. “I’m sure there’s a way for us as transmasculine/tme people to accept that transfem/tma people have a specific kind of oppression that we dont experience” yes there is. It exists right alongside the way for us as trans people to accept that many transmascs also experience a specific type of oppression that many transfems don’t experience. (Barring nuanced accounts on both ends, I’m not one to think in black and whites).

Overall imo this is a great example of the holes in the argument against the usage of “transandrophobia” and the assumptions that underlie those holes. Meaning:

• the assumption that anybody talking about transandrophobia must be transmasc and strictly transmasc, despite many transfem and genderweird people also talking about it

• the erasure of intersex people at large in these conversations (i.e. in the tme/tma dichotomy) and the ensuing erasure of specific individuals’ intersex identity in situations where it helps further the argument that “transandrophobia truthers” are dramatic and hysterical “AFABs”

• the implication that the concept of transandrophobia implies literally anything about the concept of transmisogyny

• the assumption that transmascs are somehow targeting transfems by talking about their own oppression and experiences, even when we are never mentioned

• a misunderstanding of radical feminism and what it entails that leads to people re-structuring radfem arguments in a nominally “trans-inclusive” fashion… despite those arguments still being harmful to many trans people, especially intersex trans people or genderweird trans people (i.e. multigender people, trans people with non-normative trans experiences, etc.)

Seeing someone with “ex-radfem, still unlearning” in their bio and “tmra/transandrophobia truthers” in their DNI makes so much sense.

So you’ve unlearnt the “vitriolicly hate trans women” part. Have you unlearnt the “women are better than men and always more pure and safe and good and men are always the aggressors and women are always the victims” part?

Bc that part is also bad. Y’know. Bc it leads to abuse, it leads to putting women on pedestals (something which like, is like feminism 101 sexist), and it leads to people denying the importance of intersectionality (ex. radfems claiming that black men hold systemic power over white women bc of the man/woman axis while completely ignoring the entire racialised component).

[butchwheels]

i think many people will judge strangers yet do the same behavior themselves. if you are trans/nonbinary, think back to the past couple times you saw a gender conforming person and talked about them, and conceived them in your mind. did you refer to them as they/them? gender neutral language? did you hesitate before you said sir or ma'am or lady, guy, woman, man, etc? why not? because they conformed enough for you? because they were too old for you to think they're trans/nb? because they didn't look nonbinary/trans? where do you draw the line? because i'm fairly sure you draw the line somewhere, even my nonbinary friends admit it. this isn't an accusation or a way to shame anyone, but that line is important to keep in mind and discuss. it's unfortunate that english is a gendered language, but the lgbtq community does need to work within it and talk through these issues.

if you demand that people use they/them pronouns and gender neutral language the second they see someone as too androgynous to be binary, that means there's now rules on who is conforming enough vs who is too different to be a man/woman and it reeks of sexism. it others masc women and feminine men. it tells them "hey you don't look man/woman enough to me, what are you?" and while that may be validating to some nonbinary people, it's also othering for people who are trying to normalize gender nonconformity in society, and expand what is accepted within manhood & womanhood. it also erases nonbinary & trans people who aren't visibly androgynous. what does that mean when our goal as leftists is to free people from restrictive gender norms? there's going to hopefully be more and more gnc people, and they shouldn't all be assumed trans. many people in the trans community reinforce this behavior in both trans & cis people they know, to ask anyone too androgynous their pronouns/gender but no one else. and i think it can be harmful for everyone.

and if you say there's no way to identify a nonbinary person in a crowd, what does that mean in circumstances that aren't a relative/friend/coworker being purposefully shitty, going against your preferred pronouns/gender? there needs to be a talk about what the trans/nb community wants cis strangers to do, and consistency in it. a lot of the transphobia going on is frustration born out of confusion, because all of the sudden the english language is being used in a radically different way than its original sex-based usage, and interactions between strangers are forever changed, at least in more progressive circles. she/her and he/him were initially invented for convenience to refer to sex. now that there's more knowledge of trans issues and they/them pronouns in society, where do we go from here? how do we do this without reinforcing sexism & misogyny?

[queermediastudies]

Gillian’s Queer Media Example: Comic Books

Comic books have often been dismissed or overlooked when it comes to queerness. But the comic from its very beginning has “been linked to queerness or broader questions of sexuality and gender identity in US society” (Scott and Fawaz, 2018). The American comics industry as they are known today was created by Jewish Americans who were originally denied jobs at regular publishing industries, so they started their industry. Some of these creators were Stan Lee (Writer and co-creator of Spider-Man, The Avenger, The X-Men, and The Fantastic Four), Jack Kirby (Artist, writer, and co-creator of Captain America, The Fantastic Four, and Spider-Man), Jerry Siegel (co-creator of Superman), And Bob Kane (co-creator of Batman). Therefore, both Superman and Captain America were heavily inspired by Jewish mythology with Superman being inspired by the story of Moses and Captain America being inspired by the story of the Golem. This influence is also why most superheroes' backstories are formed from family loss and death because it was the trauma a lot of these men were most familiar with.

So, it's no surprise that comic books would continue to tell the stories of marginalized people. “This has made the medium especially effective as a space for the depiction of an array of fantastical characters, worlds, and social interactions (among humans, mutants, aliens, cyborgs, and other “inhuman” figurations). The fantasy aspects of the medium have historically lent themselves to the depiction of a vast array of nonnormative expressions of gender and sexuality—from the most metaphoric (in hyperbolic camp visuality or the metamorphosing of human bodies into forms that call into question traditional gender norms, etc.) to the most literal (the actual depiction of queer bodies and erotic attachments)” (Scott and Fawaz, 2018). Marvel had the first openly gay superhero, NorthStar (Jean-Paul Beaubier) of Alpha Flight and the X-Men. And in 2011 when New York passed the Marriage Equality Act of 2011, Marvel celebrated this with NorthStar marrying his partner, Kyle.

The first transgender superhero was in DC’s Doom Patrol with Coagula.

Doom Patrol also has the characters of Negative Man (Larry Trainor) and Danny the Street. Negative Man is a gay superhero in Doom Patrol. Danny the Street is an Allie of the Doom Patrol a sentient living teleporting genderqueer street who uses they/them pronouns. Danny provides a sanctuary for anyone that society ostracized and seeks to hurt.

One of the most revolutionary comic book series was DC and Vertigo comics The Sandman written by Neil Gaiman (who would go on to write American Gods, Coraline, and co-write Good Omens). Since its debut in 1989, The Sandman resonated with the LGBTQ+ community and has become a cult classic. It was one of the only comics at the time with reparation in a mainstream medium when prejudice against the community was at an all-time high. When asked about this Gaiman stated, “I had gay friends and I had trans friends. I wanted to see them represented in the comics that I was writing, and it felt to me like if I wrote comics and left them out, then I wouldn’t be representing my world or the world that I was in, or the world I was perceiving accurately, bravely, or truly. And that’s the point of art. So, for me, it was just a given.” The Sandman’s main character Dream of the Endless and his sibling's Destiny, Death, Destruction, Desire, Despair, and Delirium are notable in this context of queerness because while they all have preferred forms, they can present themselves however they choose and people they meet often preserve them in many different forms that vary in gender and race. Desire is most notable amongst the seven siblings in that they are genderqueer. They can present as either masculine, feminine, or something more in between. There is also the character of Wanda. Wanda is a transgender woman who is friends with Barbie. Wanda tragically died in a natural disaster and Barbie has a dream about Wanda looking perfect and beautiful. Wanda notices Barbie and waves goodbye to her as she leaves with Death. Later Barbie visits Wanda’s grave and sees that Wanda’s family put her dead name on the grave. Barbie rectifies this by crossing out the deadname and writing Wanda’s real name with her favorite shade of lipstick because it is the least, she can do as a friend.

Sandman later faced controversy when it released ‘Death Talks About Life’ in 1994. This was a PSA story to raise awareness about HIV/AIDS and teach safe sex practices the PSA was released in Hellblazer #62, The Sandman #46, and Shade the Changing Man #32, and later as free pamphlets. This PSA almost got a few comic shops shut down and was banned in a few other shops. The story was of Death of the Endless as she advises on how to live longer, what are STDs, what are HIV/AIDs, how to use a condom with help from John Constantine, as well as dispelling myths about AIDS.

Sandman was not the only comic book to tackle the subject of HIV/AIDS. X-Men handled it in the form of the Legacy Virus. The Legacy Virus was created to target, infect, and kill mutants. But it did not just kill mutants since it targeted the x-gene which can be in non-mutants it started killing non-mutants as well. The X-Men in general has served as a long-time allegory for queerness for many years. They are a group of humans who present extraordinary abilities around puberty but can be present since birth (like gender and sexuality) and are often outcast by society that sees them as inhuman, something to exterminate, or something to cure. Mutants find safe havens at Xavier’s School for Gifted Youngsters where they can be themselves. The X-Men were also known for their diverse characters such as “Storm, a Kenyan-born immigrant to the United States, the first black woman superhero in a mainstream comic book, and the X-Men’s team leader by the 1990s” (Scott and Fawaz, 2018). It’s also noteworthy that a lot of early queer representation came from mutant characters. As mentioned before NorthStar the first openly gay superhero is a mutant. Mystique (Raven Darkholme) and Destiny (Iren Adler) have been long partners and they even raised one of the most famous X-Men together, Rogue.

Iceman (Bobby Drake) was also revealed as gay and was likely overcompensating because of his bigoted parents. Wanda Maximoff’s (Scarlet Witch) twin boys, Bobby (Wiccan) and Tommy are both queer. Tommy is bi with a boyfriend and Bobby is gay and got married to Teddy (Hulkling)

Also, the infamous love triangle of Cyclops (Scout Summer), Jean Grey, and Wolverine (Logan) have become a much healthier polyamorous relationship.

I could go on about many more queer characters and stories in comic books, but it is probably best if I stop it here. There are so many more characters and stories that I could talk about so just remember comic books are queerer than you think.

[liskantope]

I really like your latest post. I feel parallels between your old girlfriend's behaviour and my feelings when I thought I should transition to the opposite gender. I feel that there's a similar 'spoonie' community for transgenderism, and I remember in 2013 that plenty of the 'old-school' trans people were saying that the new wave of trans identification wasn't genuine transsexuality.. but instead a psychological coping mechanism for something else, that wouldn't be helped by taking hormones.

Of course, I was someone who was wanting an easy fix, hearing 'if you take these medicines then your whole life will be so much better'. It sounded amazing. But the catch was.... I instantly started convincing myself that life wasn't worth living 'til I got hormones. I fell into a rabbit-hole like you describe your ex-gf falling into, with the spoonie communities. Bonding about a sometimes mutual pain, but the same people would give me the idea that any attempt (by people who didn't identify as trans) to deeply understand what I was going through was an act of 'transphobia'. This meant any questions outside of the pre-scripted ones that 'my group' could come up with, were bigoted.

but I genuinely was going through a horrible time, and this gave me a way to voice my feeling.... but taking hormonal-altering medications wasn't ever going to help. The only help would come when I could see further than the 'spoonie' trans people wanted me to. When I got out of that community, with the support of other people. When they were able to talk to me in reasonable terms, and talk to me like a normal person.... and understand that I was going through pain. The spoonie-transes used a bunch of weird jargon to describe normal concepts. I had to relearn that I could still think normally. My world was so much brighter when I was. The jargon only turned this magical world into a sort of grey corporate landscape reminiscent of Pixie-World in the Fairly Oddparents. Lol.

Thank you for sharing your story! (You sent a couple more long asks expanding on it but I'm not sure it's appropriate here to post them; thank you for elaborating regardless.)

There are lots of misery-spiral, it's-us-against-the-world, this-is-how-to-characterize-what's-wrong-with-you, and anyone-who-tells-you-otherwise-is-an-ignorant-asshole online communities out there for different people suffering in different ways. I already mentioned incels, and there are no doubt a number of both ultra-left and ultra-reactionary groups of this type. And yes, I am definitely concerned that some communities of this sort are contributing to the spike in older children / teenagers asking to transition, and that many very young people are rushing to this as a bandage in place of more difficult-to-find treatments of other psychological issues. Notice that I say "contributing" -- the trans activist explanation of much more acceptance and light shed on what it means to be transgender over the last ten years clearly also is also a contributing factor to more of the youth identifying as trans. And I don't know how many stories like yours there are compared to stories of kids turning out to look back on their transition as a lifesaver. To some extent, time will tell (over the next 5-10 years) to what extent some parts of society have gone overboard in encouraging kids to transition.

It's hard to know how common stories like yours are because there are so many disputes over the data and political pressures interfering with the whole thing. My level of concern about this (on a society-wide level, not my human concern for you and those with similar stories as individuals) depends on a number of factors I'm just not sure of, such as

how frequently psychiatrists nowadays encourage kids to transition under the pressure of a "you know yourself best" assumption being enforced as the ethical norm by some social movements

how frequently kids are put on hormones (rather than just changing their name/pronouns and presenting as another gender)

how frequently kids get approved for some kind of actual sex reassignment surgery (and adults for that matter -- it seems to me that sex reassignment surgery is a heavy-duty recourse that is somewhat rare even in the trans community, and hopefully would be rarer for kids, at least relative to how Walsh/Peterson types make it out to be)

I'm disturbed by the climate of fear around suggesting what you do in your ask(s) and feel like I'm even treading in slightly dangerous waters by giving voice to it. I notice that even types like Freddie de Boer (and a couple of others I can think of, in a less striking way), who are extremely vocal about the dangers of being sucked into mental-illness-happy or other grievance-happy communities, appear afraid of touching the trans youth issue with a twenty-foot pole (e.g. FdB bans people and shuts down his comments sections for weeks at a time if people point out the very obvious parallels between his criticism of Gen-Z mental-illness-happy culture and others' worries about Gen-Z trans activist culture, and I'm not suggesting these are absolutely analogous or that an intelligent rebuttal couldn't exist, just that FdB seems averse to directly addressing it for whatever reason). So it's left mainly to the right wing of the anti-woke intelligentsia to decry it and Republican politicians to pass draconian laws blanket banning various forms of youth medical transitioning in order to score points with today's conservatives.

This is all a mess and I hope we'll get to a place where all sides can discuss this in a cooler-headed way even though there are valid reasons why it's an issue that profoundly affects people's livelihoods in a deeply emotional way. I'm sorry that you went through what you did but glad that you've managed to overcome it and find the right kind of support in the end.

[thatfeyboy]

If I'm being honest, it's often equally invalidating. It's as if the concept of gender has become one with gender roles. For me, as a man, it is very often that if I do anything that isn't within the male norm I am assumed to Not Be A Man. People are sometimes dismissive even when I correct them, asserting that I clearly don't understand what an egg I am. I am already trans, out, and transitioned for context. I don't think this helps nonbinary people because it's not being decided based on whether or not I ID as a man, it's about presentation. It just shows people know they exist. Sometimes it's not even that, they directly jump to seeing me as a woman.

None of this is good. None of this is what trans people want. It's an awful mistake created by the constant pressure that being a gender is a social construct. I don't know how quiet to say this, but it was inevitable with how gender is currently described. If gender is social people aren't going to go "oh I guess people are what they say they are cause it doesn't really matter". They are going to start assigning gender based on social phenomenon. Girly people are girls, masc people are men, everyone else is neither. There was never a reality were gendered terms were going to mean nothing except whatever an individual decides for themselves. It was always going to be ascribed a consistent, understandable definition.

Now I'm not advocating for some draconian right wing sex only interpretation of gender, nor am I saying gender isn't self determined. But it's never sat right with me that gender is just a set of social rules that aren't really tangible. Gender is tangible, even if we as a society don't understand everything about it. It's undeniable it has something to do with sex traits, and something to do with how we are perceived socially by others. Beyond that though we don't know fucking shit.

Bottom line though, advocating for the pure sociality of gender ensures exactly this; that gender is based on social roles and actions. It makes sure gnc behavior will always be scrutinized. It assures that being a man or woman, birth assignment or otherwise, will always be tied to a social class. It guarantees that should you step out of line people will question whether it's better or more accurate for you to be a different gender, even against your will. Most frighteningly it will even further enforce gender stereotypes on people, like women being weak and men being violent, because if you weren't then you would be that gender. Doesn't matter if you are cis or trans. It will affect everyone.

I have already experienced it, as have many others trans or cis. We shouldn't just start asserting that gender needs to be about specific sex traits or forcing people to transition/admit textbook dysphoria either. But it cannot remain as it is. This is getting insane. At the very least, I know I as a trans person and people like me don't have a gender that fits with this social definition. I definitely only feel like a man because of what physical traits I needed to be comfortable. Sure I like being masc sometimes, and sure I like the validation of being perceived as a good attractive man by being masc. That does not make me content with ignoring every other part of the human experience I wish to enjoy that's a part of me, and my desire to do so should not put my gender into question to compete strangers or even closer friends.

If you don't want to read all of that, at the very least, do not ever assert in any way you know someone's gender better than they do. Also, don't role out pronouns based on gender conformity. I get it, we all have to assume at some point and base that assumption on something, and we all make mistakes. But since being nonbinary has usually nothing to do with being socially gender-stereotype ambiguous, and a lot of nb people don't exclusively or at all use they/them, don't give people a they/them for having short hair or a crop top. Those pronouns aren't actually gender neutral for people that usually use them. It is meant to describe their gender or lack their of. It's really fucking rude.

EDIT: I want to add, I know they is the closest we have in English to a gender neutral pronoun. I know people use it when they aren't sure. What I have a problem with are the things that make people unsure, such as really basic gender nonconformity. A woman being kinda butch or a man being kinda loosely fem should not throw you off so much as to assume that they are trans in some way. It's not the brief mistake I'm worried about. It's the mentality that seems to drive that thought process, being the constant studying of gender conformative presentation to assign gender. This idea that they/them is somehow less misgendering than a binary term isn't really true. It kinda goes against solidifying it as a specific identity marker for those that do use it as well. I personally would rather just be asked my pronouns than misgendered by assumption, I promise it's less rude if you have the chance to ask(I understand you can't always/it might not be safe to ask so use your own judgement there). The worst part is still those that assert they know your gender after correcting, but still.

girl help I'm getting they/them'd by well-meaning people who don't know what a tomboy is

[anotherghoul666]

i saw the ask about being bi and i just wanted to get some perspective on my situation since you have such good advice!

i’m going on 5 years into a relationship with my boyfriend and i’ve been kind of freaking out about my gender lately. i’ve been struggling with it for as long as i can remember but i had a lot of shit going on and there was never really time to think about it seriously until recently. i’m realizing now that i’m non-binary leaning masc. i just can’t bring myself to tell my boyfriend. we’re very serious, living together and all but i know that he isn’t attracted to guys and i feel so stressed about doing things like binding and asking him to not use feminine words for me. but it also makes me sad thinking that i might never come out. sorry about the rant i just really don’t have anyone to talk this through with so i’ve just been ruminating about it for a while

Oooh, ok, this is touchy. Because I don't know you and your situation and the nuances of it. Because this is a very nuanced thing. I can't judge based on just this ask how strongly you feel about your gender identity versus how strongly you feel about your relationship. This is a decisional balance situation. You'll have to weigh your options against one another. And the weight of each thing can and will change over time. It's a tricky thing to do. I can only give you some perspective and talk about my own experience with my gender and my primary relationship.

Tough love incoming. If you're not ready to take it or hold space for it, feel free to not read. Or let me know in another ask to delete, and I will delete this message for you.

My main thing in regards to relationships is and will always be this: if you can't be yourself, truly, completely yourself within said relationship, why are you in it?

Now, I recognize I'm an all or nothing person. I see the world in black and white. I handle being alone and solitude very well. I'd much rather be on my own and happy about myself, then in a relationship where I can't be myself. I'm saying that now, today, in my current headspace, as a 31 year old with lots of therapy and self care and growth behind me. And lots to come still. I don't know how old you are. But. Ten years ago, would my answer have been the same? Absolutely not. Ten years ago I stepped all over myself and bend myself every which way people asked to fit in their tiny little uncomfortable boxes of what they wanted me to be. I DESTROYED myself doing that over decades. Destroyed. Wrecked. Reconstructed. Rebuilt. I will never do that again. I am me. I am unapologetically me and, as much as I recognize in situations like work etc. I do have to conform into societal norms, those are not relationships I chose. Unfortunately in our capitalist society you cannot choose to not work and still survive. But relationships like a couple, a partnership, friendships, family, etc. I choose fully. I refuse to choose to be in a partnership where I won't be able to be myself.

If you're scared to have these conversations with your boyfriend, to me that's a red flag. That's a bell that needs to ring and be heard. Why are you scared? Is it inner anxiety? Or did he react in the past negatively or aggressively towards similar subjects? Is it your brain assuming he won't like it, or did he clearly state he doesn't believe in gender or some shit like that? There's a world of difference between what your brain tells you and what may be the truth. A lot of times we assume and project emotions and thoughts onto people, and it turns out to not be their emotions or thoughts at all. Be wary of projection. Ask yourself why is it that you're afraid to tell him about your discoveries, your pronouns. Why are you afraid to bind. Find the source of the fear. From you, or from him. If it's a fear from within, evaluate that. Sit with it. Ask your boyfriend directly. Have the difficult conversations. You will never know for sure unless you ask and talk it out. Get his real feelings out in the open. Now, if he did say transphobe things for example and that's why you're scared, maybe he's not a great partner to keep, you know?

You have the right to come out. You have the right to be recognized as who and what you are. You have the right to be fluid and change in your identity, and anything else. By the sheer nature of your existence you have this right. Your boyfriend has the right to his own opinions and beliefs too. You'd need to know what those are tho. Not assume. Ask and know for sure. Then you have to decide.

There's four ways I see this conversation can go. 1) he's actually more fine with it that you thought and you two can flourish and continue your life path together with acceptance and love all around. 2) he's not down for the NB shit and you choose to sacrifice yourself and your identity for the sake of this relationship. That might last a few years. My prediction is you'll self destruct eventually because of the repression and it'll be a worse break up in many years than it would have been at 5 years in, because you'll have harmed yourself immensely in the process of denying who you are. 3) he's not down with the NB shit and you decide that the relationship is not what you want to continue living in. It doesn't matter if you live together and have life plans, you'll know in your heart if your identity is worth more to you than to move out and start over. 4) then there's the option of, maybe the gender discovery was not what you thought, because gender is messy as fuck and it fluctuates so much. That I can't answer for you, you have to know within if NB is really what you are or if you're just trying out pronouns and a label, see if it feels good, feels better. You have the right to try labels and pronouns in spaces other than the home if home doesn't feel safe for it. With friends, while going out, in queer spaces, online, etc. See how it feels. Does it feel strong enough and a big enough part of you to turn your life upside down for it. It might. It might not. That's up to you to decide. But live your truth.

Never settle. Settling, swallowing it down, brushing it under the rug, that might seem like the best option right now. It's the easiest. It's the avoidant option. It will catch up to you I can guarantee it. Under the rug is where things go to die and rot and fester. The pungent smell of rot will catch up to you. It will be unavoidable one day. If you ignore stuff for months or years even, I can guarantee one day, ten years from now maybe, this gender shit will come back up with a vengeance and it might harm you. Where are you gonna be in ten years? What if you ignore your gender today, ignore who you are, buy a house with this boyfriend, get married, maybe have kids if that's something you want. What then? When in ten years, what you've been repressing this whole time comes back to kick your ass. Are you gonna be able to destroy everything then to live your truth? Its gonna be way more difficult if you have legal attachments like a marriage contract, a mortgage or a kid. 5 years is a long relationship, but honestly in the scope of your life it's not that long. To stick with something that's not right because of how much time you've invested in it is not a good reason. It sounds like one. That's called the sunk cost fallacy. Or fallacy of time invested. "The human tendency to stick with endeavors in which we've already invested time, money, or other resources even when changing course would be the more logical choice." Look it up.

My sincere hope for you two is that it will go better than you assume. I was scared to tell my partner too when I started to understand what I'd felt all my life towards my body was disphoria. When I started to realize how I relate to gender was different than most people. When I wanted to see if I was trans (I don't consider myself trans, tho some NB people do and that's absolutely valid too) and I tried the masculine pronouns and identity for a while. Didn't fit perfectly right. Some things and words fit, some days it fit more than others, but some days it didn't feel right at all. The journey to land on NB she/they with a preference for they and gender neutral words was a long one and I'm honestly still not sure about the label or the identity. The only things I know for sure after two years of exploration of gender is I'm not just a woman, and I'm not just a man. That's it. It will change.

When I told my partner about the disphoria and my inkling that I had some gender fuckery going on, she still identified as a lesbian. My partner is a cis woman and for decades her identity was very very rooted in the "I am a lesbian" thing. My gender identity made her reconsider things too. I was worried that she wouldn't be into me anymore because she was such a lesbian back in the day and I wasn't a woman anymore. But the thing is, I was never a woman at all. She fell in love with me and we agreed on a life partnership and a life path together while I wasn't a woman. Because I never was. I just didn't have the right terms to describe myself with before. I didn't have the vocabulary, the knowledge. My partner had to evaluate for herself was she in love with a woman, which would have made us incompatible, or was she in love with me. She figured out she was in love with me. She was supportive about all my pronouns try-ons and label changes through the years and to this day she's my absolute rock and most supportive cheerleader ever. She takes it in stride, makes a point to ask which pronouns I want for that day, asks how I want her to refer to me to specific people, etc. She asks permission before she outs me to someone as NB by using gender neutral terms. She cares. Cause she loves me. And I love her. And we choose every day that we're gonna build our life together. If one day something incompatible comes up, and either one of us wakes up and cannot make the choice that day, cannot choose the other that day, then we'll talk about it. Have the gut wrenching conversations and decide what happens with the relationship there. But I know for a fact if she wasn't down with my gender exploration, I would have brought it up. Assuming she would have been super closed minded about it and refused my gender identity, I would have had to talk about breaking up. Cause I'm not gonna live my life with someone I'm afraid of. I will not share my life with someone whom I can't be my true self with.

Will you?

[layercake]

Why Naoto is Heavily Trans Coded, and How The Discussion Surrounding Him Needs to Change

Hello, I’ve never written or posted anything like this before LOL so this is a bit daunting. But this subject is something that’s been bothering me for a long time, and I wanted to get it out somewhere. So let’s talk about how Naoto Shirogane is heavily trans coded, and how the fandom has a problematic culture surrounding the issue that really needs to change.

Tw // discussion of misogyny , transphobia , and mentions of harassment

Initial Shadow Confrontation 

Since the discussion is most often about what’s “canon” and what’s not, let’s first take a look at what the game actually does give us about Naoto’s character. During the confrontation with Naoto’s shadow, we learn that Naoto idolized detectives as a kid, and wanted to be one himself when he was older.

However, this posed a problem for him in multiple ways. One, he was (is) still a child, and the people in his field don’t take him seriously because of it. He tries desperately to escape this fact, to try and act as mature as possible, but ultimately he can’t change how others will perceive him at his age.

This is what the shadow confrontation focuses on most heavily. But then it switches to discussing the other part of the issue-- the fact that Naoto’s ideal image of a detective is a man, and he “isn’t.” 

At the end, Yukiko says “You must know already that what you yearn for isn’t to become an adult or to become a boy,” and Naoto accepts it. This is what most people point to when saying that Naoto can’t be trans, because he agrees that it wasn’t what he wished for. So, easy, right? If you take this as him telling the truth, then it looks like an open and shut case-- he isn’t trans. But Naoto’s actions don’t really fit what he says here. 

The issue starts with these next lines (below) in particular. To me, Naoto’s tone in the first line is regretful, and doesn’t strike me as a sentiment someone who is cisgender would necessarily hold. Why would he want to “change into a man?” To fit his ideal image of a detective? As he says here, yes.

(Real quick before I continue, it’s not clear in the dialogue screenshot but it’s important to note that Naoto does say “yes” to Yukiko’s question about him not liking being a girl. He nods his head)

The narrative that the game tries to go with after this is that the “ideal image” Naoto wanted to live up to, including the male aspect of it, was unattainable and formed primarily because he felt that was the only way he could be a detective. 

But, is this really that much of a problem? We all look up to certain types of people, people that we want to be like-- and for many, this can factor into gender identity as well. If Naoto really just wanted to be a cool, male detective, that doesn’t at all negate that being trans would be a part of that for him. 

Naoto’s other words and actions, as well as the framing of this scene as a whole, make the scenario feel a lot less believable to me for multiple reasons. Naoto never initiates the conversation that him wanting to be a boy is incorrect-- Yukiko does. Naoto isn’t even the one to trigger his shadow-- Kanji does that. Naoto had a lot less agency in a lot of these decisions than the other characters did with their shadows. 

Naoto’s Continued Actions

The fragility of the narrative Atlus put together for Naoto continues to grow throughout the rest of the game, due to the way he behaves after the initial shadow confrontation.

For starters, it’s implied that Naoto is not his birth name, something that i think a lot of people either miss or forget about-- and yet he continues to go by it throughout the course of the game. We never find out his deadname and he never expresses a desire to share it with anybody.

The day after the “reveal,” Naoto doesn’t change anything about his appearance, mannerisms, or how he presents himself. He honestly seems uncomfortable with the fact that everyone has found out, in a way that felt much like being outed to the whole school, as opposed to finally being seen and accepted for who you “really” are.

I understand that such a drastic shift in people’s perception of you would be overwhelming to anybody, no matter if you were cis or not. But if Atlus really wanted to hone in on the idea that Naoto was happy about this change, they could’ve at least made him…. Well, happy about it. Even if it was just a small smile, just a tiny indication of relief even despite how hard it will be to adjust, it would’ve made it at least a little more believable that this is what he really wanted.

But that’s not the case. Instead, he’s uncomfortable, he still binds, he still wears the school’s male uniform, and he still goes by Naoto. The only time any of this actually changes is if you as the protagonist push him to, which… is a whole other mess.

The fact that Naoto has even gotten to this point, though, speaks more volumes to me than anything else. Passing is not easy. Coming out is not easy. Naoto would have had to go through difficult lengths in order to get not only his school, but the country and media to see him as a man.  He’s a well-known "detective prince".. someone was bound to look up his records and find out about it. That's a huge risk to take.

In addition to this, he binds. He goes by masculine pronouns and a masculine name. He very audibly changes his voice to be more masculine. I don’t know how to tell you this, but this is just…. not something cis people do? At least not comfortably. 

In fact, doing all of this would have been incredibly uncomfortable for Naoto if he was cis. As someone who experiences dysphoria, looking like and being seen as a gender you are not can be really, really painful. If transitioning was something he really didn’t want, why would he put himself through all of that? Was it really to escape misogyny? Me asking this isn’t minimizing the issue at all, because I understand that it’s incredibly serious and hard for countless women. But I would generally think someone’s first reaction to facing misogyny isn’t to… completely change their identity and present as a different gender.

On top of being probably the hardest option of escaping misogyny available to him, and one of the most uncomfortable, presenting as a man doesn’t necessarily get rid of any prejudices Naoto may face. In fact, I would argue that it’s considerably more dangerous. Especially in a rural town like Inaba, where people seem to not really understand or approve of being LGBT. Naoto is smart, he would have thought of all of this. So why?

Inherent Transphobia of Naoto’s Arc 

There is something to be said about how much misogyny is present in Japan’s workforce, especially in fields like Naoto’s, and the importance there is in discussing that. The base idea behind his struggles and message isn’t inherently a bad one, but the way the game went about it was problematic because it put down transgender identities in the process.

The first time I watched Naoto’s shadow confrontation, it was really distressing to me. The game continuously repeats the idea that you can’t “cross the barrier of the sexes,” that Naoto “can never really be a man,” and  that “you can change your name, but you can never change who you “really” are.” I hope I don’t need to explain why this is a problem.

Naoto’s wish to be a man, regardless of what was driving it, is depicted as something temporary and childish. Something that Naoto “didn’t really want,”  something that was just an excuse to run away from the misogyny he was facing. Even if it was unintentional, this message is incredibly harmful to transgender people.

It would have been a better and much more coherent message about misogyny if the writers had steered clear of trans themes entirely. In fact, I think they did so well with Sae’s character in Persona 5-- she’s in the same field of work, facing very similar struggles, but she doesn’t react in the same way as Naoto at all. 

Kanji and Homophobia 

It’s even worse that Naoto’s “reveal,” on top of being problematic by itself, is used as a method to bury Kanji’s exploration of his own sexuality. The problems with Kanji’s own shadow are bad enough to warrant their own long rant, but the reveal that Naoto was “really a girl” this whole time allows the story to completely wave off his gayness for good.

This isn’t something unique to this game-- the trope of “two boys fall in love, but one of them turns out to be a girl so it’s fine” has been used numerous times in other media to explore the topic half-assedly. It plays with the “exoticness” or “drama” of a gay romance, but backs off at the end in order to uphold societal norms and prevent backlash. 

This doesn’t really give any kind of good commentary on gay relationships, nor does it depict them in a positive or helpful manner. It isn’t something that these games should be getting kudos for doing. 

Misogyny?

I think there’s also something to be said about how poignantly bad Atlus is at really tackling the problem of misogyny. It tries, especially with characters like Ann and Sae, and in certain aspects it can succeed. But then they have scenes like the pageant and Every Beach Scene Ever, where the women are forced to wear swimsuits or revealing clothing against their will, or their bodies are talked about without their consent. There is consistently a character in each persona game who is forced to do the whole misogynistic dipshit gimmick that’s supposed to be funny-- Junpei, Yosuke, Teddie, Morgana, Ryuji-- and while this is obviously not a Persona specific problem by a longshot, it’s still indicative of how unsuccessful these games often are in delivering the message that society’s systemic misogyny is an issue.

This is something I think about a lot when people try and argue that Naoto’s story can’t be about him being trans because it’s “an important message about misogyny.” Atlus often doesn’t deliver on such stories already, and they certainly didn’t with Naoto. As soon as Naoto returns to “living as a woman” he’s subjected to the same misogyny that the other girls are. His chest is commented on, he’s forced to be in the beauty pageant, he’s made uncomfortable in the bath scenes-- really, all Atlus did after the reveal was make the problem worse for him. 

On top of this, his story never actually meaningfully tackles the problem of misogyny in the detective force. It’s not a major part of his social link or the general plot of the game-- honestly, it’s barely even touched on at all after the initial confrontation. Thus, the idea that “Naoto can’t be trans because it erases a story about misogyny” is just plain untrue. There never was a coherent one in the first place.

Problems Within the Fandom

Despite all of this, there is such an intense backlash from the majority of the fandom if anybody dares to bring up these issues with Naoto’s story. Naoto being trans is generally seen as something ridiculous and stupid, or something to insult and mock people for.

I understand that there's always going to be people who say provocative stuff like this, no matter what anyone does, and that it’s not something exclusive to this particular fandom or character. But the problem is that this rhetoric isn't just from them anymore--the consensus among so much of the fandom seems to be either that Naoto absolutely cannot be trans, or that speaking about it at all is "annoying discourse" and taboo. Even from fans that are LGBT or allies themselves. 

This in and of itself is such a telling thing to me. if you find yourself getting angry about the subject, really ask yourself why. Is it such a problem for people to reclaim a transphobic story? Is it such a problem for a character to be trans in the first place?  There is room for discussion and nuance regarding this situation, but we have to make it for ourselves. We can accept that Atlus’s base game will never actually give us a coherent story about either misogyny nor being transgender with Naoto’s story. But petty arguments and insults thrown at people who bring up this topic isn’t any of that-- it’s just poorly masked transphobia. 

So at the end of the day, no, Naoto being is trans is not “canon.” Of course Naoto would not actually be allowed to be trans, he is a main character in a game series where the only explicitly LGBT characters have been consistently buried, stereotyped, or demonized with only a few rare exceptions.

Yes, you’re allowed to headcanon whatever you want about him. I can’t stop you from wanting a story about misogyny, or from seeing Naoto’s gender as something more fluid than I do. But you can’t ignore the fact that his story, as written in canon, is laden with transphobia despite its intentions. It’s not a ridiculous or harmful thing for trans people to want to reclaim that.

There are still a lot more issues with how Naoto is treated in the game-- especially in his romance route-- but that’s a whole other can of worms I’m not ready to unpack today lol

Hopefully all of this made sense though, and feel free to bring up anything else I may have missed or point out any issues you might have with it :-) Thanks for reading!

[justmenoworries]

Not Up For Interpretation - An Essay On Nonbinary - Erasure

(Trigger Warning: Misgendering, Transphobia, Nonbinary-phobia)

If you’ve been following me for a while, you probably know this was a long time coming. I’ve made several posts about my frustrations concerning this topic and how much it hurt me just how socially accepted erasing an entire identity still is. While representation marches on and things have become better for nonbinary people as a whole, we still battle with a lot of prejudice - both intentional and unintentional.

In this essay, I want to discuss just how our identities are being erased almost daily, why that is harmful and hurtful and what we all can do to change that.

Chapters:

What does Non-binary mean?

Nonbinary- representation in media

So what’s the problem?

How do we fix it?

1. What Does Non-binary Mean?

Non-binary is actually an umbrella term. It includes pretty much every gender-identity that’s neither one or the other so to speak, for example, agender.

Agender means feeling detachment from the gender spectrum in general. If you’re agender, you most likely feel a distance to the concept of gender as a whole, that it doesn’t define you as a person.

There are many identities that classify under non-binary: There’s gender-fluid (you feel you have a gender, but it’s not one gender specifically and can change), demi-gender (identifying as a gender partially, but not completely) and many others.

Sometimes, multiple non-binary identities can mix and match.

Most non-binary people use they/them pronouns, but like with so many things, it varies.

Some nonbinary-people (like me) go by two pairs of pronouns. I go by both she/her and they/them, because it’s what feels most comfortable at the moment. But who knows, maybe in the future I’ll switch to they/them exclusively or expand to he/him.

There is no one defining non-binary experience. Nb-people are just as varied and different as binary people, who go by one specific gender.

There are non-binary people who choose to go solely by she/her or he/him and that’s okay too. It doesn’t make them any more or less non-binary and their identity is still valid.

If your head’s buzzing a bit by now: That’s okay. It’s a complicated topic and no one expects you to understand all of it in one chapter of one essay.

Just know this: If a person identifies as non-binary, you should respect their decision and use the pronouns they go with.

It’s extremely hurtful to refer to someone who already told you that they use they/them pronouns with she/her or he/him, or use they/them to refer to a person who uses she/her.

Think about it like using a trans-person’s deadname: It’s rude, it’s harmful and it shows complete disrespect for the person.

Non-binary people have existed for a very long time. The concept isn’t new. The idea that there are only two genders, with every other identity being an aberration to the norm, is largely a western idea, spread through colonialism.

The Native American people use “Two-Spirit” to describe someone who identifies neither as a man nor a woman. The term itself is relatively new, but the concept of a third gender is deeply rooted in many Native American cultures.

(Author’s Note: If you are not Native American, please do not use it. That’s cultural appropriation.)

In India, the existence of a third gender has always been acknowledged and there are many terms specifically for people who don’t identify with the gender that was assigned to them at birth.

If you’re interested in learning more about non-binary history and non-binary identities around the world, I’d recommend visiting these websites:

https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/History_of_nonbinary_gender

https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender-variant_identities_worldwide

https://thetempest.co/2020/02/01/history/the-history-of-nonbinary-genders-is-longer-than-you-think/

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/gender-variance-around-the-world

Also, maybe consider giving this book a try:

Nonbinary Gender Identities: History, Culture, Resources by Charlie Mcnabb

2. Non-binary Representation In Media

The representation of non-binary people in mainstream media hasn’t been... great, to put it mildly.

Representation, as we all know, is important.

Not only does it give minorities a chance to see themselves in media and feel heard and acknowledged. It also normalizes them.

For example, seeing a black Disney-princess was a huge deal for many black little girls, because they could finally say there was someone there who looked like them. They could see that being white wasn’t a necessity to be a Disney princess.

Seeing a canonically LGBT+ character in a children’s show teaches kids that love is love, no matter what gender you’re attracted to. At the same time, older LGBT+ viewers will see themselves validated and heard in a movie that features on-screen LGBT+ heroes.

There’s been some huge steps in the right direction in the last few years representation-wise.

Not only do we have more LGBT+ protagonists and characters in general, we’ve also begun to question and call out harmful or bigoted portrayals of the community in media, such as “Bury Your Gays” or the “Depraved Homosexual”.

With that being said: Let’s take a look at how Non-binary representation holds up in comparison, shall we?

This is Double Trouble, from the children’s show “She-Ra And The Princesses Of Power”.

They identify as non-binary and use they/them pronouns. They’re also  a slimy, duplicitous lizard-person who can change their shape at will.

Um, yeah.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Did I mention they’re also the only non-binary character in the entire show? And that they’re working with a genocidal dictator in most of the episodes they’re in?

Yikes.

Let’s look at another example.

These three (in order of appearance) are Stevonnie, Smoky Quartz and Shep. Three characters appearing in the kid’s show “Steven Universe” and it’s epilogue series “Steven Universe: Future”.

All of them identify as non-binary and use they/them as pronouns.

Stevonnie and Smoky Quartz are the result of a boy and a girl being fused together through weird alien magic.

Shep is a regular human, but they only appeared in one episode. In an epilogue series that only hardcore fans actually watched.

Well, I mean...

One out of three isn’t that bad, right?

Maybe we should pick an example from a series for older viewers.

Say hello to Doppelganger, a non-binary superhuman who goes by they/them, from the Amazon-series “The Boys”.

They’re working for a corrupt superhero-agency and use their power of shape-shifting to trick people who pose a threat to said agency into having sex with them. And then blackmail those people with footage of said sex.

....

Do I even need to say it?

If you’ve paid attention during the listing of these examples, you might have noticed a theme.

Namely that characters canonically identifying as non-binary are either

supernatural in some way, shape or form,

barely have a presence in the piece of media they’re in,

both.

Blink-and-you-miss-it-manner of representation aside, the majority of these characters fall squarely under what we call “Othering”.

“Othering” describes the practice of portraying minorities as supernatural creatures or otherwise inhuman. Or to say it bluntly: As “The Other”.

“Othering” is a pretty heinous method. Not only does it portray minorities as inherently abnormal and “different in a bad way”. It also goes directly against what representation is actually for: Normalizing.

As a general rule of thumb: If your piece of media has humans in it, but the only representation of non-white, non-straight people are explicitly inhuman... yeah, that’s bad.

So is there absolutely no positive representation for us out there?

Not quite.

As rare as human non-binary characters in media are to find, they do exist.

Here we have Bloodhound! A non-binary human hunter who uses they/them pronouns, from the game “Apex Legends”.

It’s been confirmed by the devs and the voice actress that they’re non-binary.

Nice!

These are Frisk (bottom) and Chara (top) from the game “Undertale”. While their exact gender identity hasn’t been disclosed, they both canonically use they/them pronouns, so it’s somewhere on the non-binary spectrum.

Two human children who act as the protagonist (Frisk) and antagonist (Chara), depending on how you play the game. (Interpretations vary on the antagonist/protagonist-thing, to say the least.)

Cool!

......

And, yep, that’s it.

As my little demonstration here showed, non-binary representation in media is rare. Good non-binary representation is even rarer.

Which is why those small examples of genuinely good representation are so important to the Non-binary community!

It’s hard enough to have to prove you exist. It’s even harder to prove your existence is not abnormal or unnatural.

If you’d like to further educate yourself on representation, it’s impact on society and why it matters, perhaps take a second to read through these articles:

https://www.criticalhit.net/opinion/representation-media-matters/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/why-on-screen-representation-matters-according-to-these-teens

https://jperkel.github.io/sciwridiversity2020/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2019/05/22/why-is-equal-representation-in-media-important/?sh=25f2ccc92a84

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/why-representation-the-media-matters

3. So What’s The Problem?

The problem, as is the case with so many things in the world, is prejudice.

Actually, that’s not true.

There’s not a problem, there are multiple problems. And their names are prejudice, ignorance and bigotry.

Remember how I said human non-binary representation is rare?

Yeah, very often media-fans don’t help.

Let’s take for example, the aforementioned Frisk and Chara from “Undertale”.

Despite the game explicitly using they/them to refer to both characters multiple times, the majority of players somehow got it into their heads that Frisk’s and Chara’s gender was “up for interpretation”.

There is a huge amount of fan art straight-up misgendering both characters and portraying them as binary and using only he/him or she/her pronouns.

The most egregious examples are two massively popular fan-animated web shows: “Glitchtale”, by Camila Cuevas and “Underverse” by Jael Peñaloza.

Both series are very beloved by the Undertale-fanbase and even outside of it. Meaning for many people, those two shows might be their first introduction to “Undertale” and it’s two non-binary human characters.

Take a wild guess what both Camila and Jael did with Frisk and Chara.

Underverse, X-Tale IV:

(Transcript: “Frisk lied to me in the worst possible way... I... I will never forgive him.”)

Underverse, X-Tale V:

(Transcript: “I-It’s Chara... and it’s a BOY.”)

Glitchtale, My Promise:

(Transcript: (Referring to Frisk) “I’m not scared of an angry boy anymore.”)

Glitchtale, Game Over Part 1:

(Transcript: (Referring to Chara) “It’s ok little boy.”)

This... this isn’t okay.

Not only do both of these pieces of fan-art misgender two non-binary characters, the creators knew beforehand that Frisk and Chara use they/them-pronouns, but made the conscious choice to ignore that.

To be fair, in a video discussing “Underverse”, Jael said that only X-Tale Frisk and Chara, the characters you see in the Underverse-examples above, are male, while the characters Frisk and Chara from the main game remained non-binary and used they/them (time-stamp 10:34).

Still, that doesn’t erase the fact that Jael made up alternate versions of two non-binary characters specifically to turn them male. Or that, while addressing the issue, Jael was incredibly dismissive and even mocked the people who felt hurt by her turning two non-binary characters male. Jael also went on to make a fairly non-binary-phobic joke in the video, in which she equated gender identities beyond male and female to identifying as an object.

Jael (translated): “I don’t care if people say the original Frisk and Chara are male, female, helicopters, chairs, dogs or cats, buildings, clouds...”

That’s actually a very common joke among transphobes, if not to say the transphobe-joke:

“Oh, you identify as X? Well then I identify as an attack helicopter!”

If you’re trans, chances are you’ve heard this one, or a variation of it, a million times before.

I certainly have.

I didn’t laugh then and I’m not laughing now.

(Author’s note: I might be angry at both of them for what they did, but I do not, under any circumstances, support the harassment of creators. If you’re thinking about sending either Jael or Camila hate-mail - don’t. It won’t help.)

Jael’s reaction is sadly common in the Undertale fandom. Anyone speaking up against Chara’s and Frisk’s identity being erased is immediately bludgeoned with the “up for interpretation”-argument, despite that not once being the case in the game.

And even with people who do it right and portray Frisk and Chara as they/them, you’ll have dozens of commenters swarming the work with sentences among the lines of “Oh but I think Frisk is a boy/girl! And Chara is a girl/boy!”

By the way, this kind of thing only happens to Frisk and Chara.

Every other character in “Undertale” is referred to and portrayed with their proper pronouns of she/her or he/him.

But not the characters who go by they/them.

Their gender is “up for interpretation”.

Because obviously, their identity couldn’t possibly be canonically non-binary.

Sadly, Frisk and Chara are not alone in this.

Remember Bloodhound?

And how I said they’d been confirmed as non-binary and using they/them pronouns by both the creators and the voice actress?

It seems for many players, that too translated to “up for interpretation”.

(Transcript: “does it matter what they call him? He, her, it, they toaster oven, it doesn’t matter”)

(Transcript: “I’m like 90 % sure Bloodhound is a dude because he could just sound like a girl and by their age that I’m assuming looks around 10-12 because I’ve known many males who have sounded like a female when they were younger”)

(Transcript: “I don’t care it will always be a He. F*ck that non-binary bullsh*t.”)

(Transcript: “Bloodhound is clearly female.”)

(Transcript: “I’m not calling a video game character they/them”)

(Transcript: “exactly. The face was never fully shown neither was the gender so I’d say it means that the player is Bloodhound. So it’s your gender and you refer to “him” as yourself. It’s like a self insertion in my eyes.”)

So, let me get this straight:

If a character, even a player character, uses she/her or he/him, you can accept it, no questions asked.

But when a character uses they/them, suddenly their identity and gender are “up for interpretation”?

This attitude is also widely prevalent in real life.

Many languages only include pronouns for men and women, with no third option available. Non-binary people are often forced to make up their own terms, because their language doesn’t provide one.

Non-binary people often don’t fit within other people’s ideas of gender, so they get excluded altogether. Worse, non-binary people are often the victims of misgendering, denial of their identity or even straight-up violence when coming out.

People will often tell us that we look like a certain gender, so we should only use one set of gendered pronouns. Never mind that that’s not what we want. Never mind that that’s not who we are.

Non-binary people are also largely omitted from legal documentation and studies. We cannot identify as non-binary at our workplace, because using they/them pronouns is considered “unprofessional”. We don’t have our own bathrooms like men and women do. Our gender is seen as less valid than male and female, so even that basic thing is denied to us. I’ve had to use the women’s restroom my entire life, because if I go into a male restroom, I’ll be yelled at or made fun off or simply get told I took the wrong door. It’s extremely uncomfortable for me and I wish I didn’t have to do it.

And since non-binary people aren’t seen as “real transgender-people”, we often don’t receive the medical care we need. This often renders us unable to feel good within our bodies, because the treatment and help we get is wildly inadequate.

It’s especially horrible for intersex people (people who are born with sex characteristics that don’t fit solely into the male/female category) who are often forced to change their bodies to fit within the male/female gender binary.

And you better believe each of those problems is increased ten-fold for non-binary people of color.

We are ignored and dismissed as “confused”, because of who we are.

Representation is a way for Non-binary people to show the world they exist, that they’re here and that they too have stories to tell.

But how can we, when every character that represents us is either othered, barely there or gets taken away from us?

We are not “up for interpretation”.

Neither are the characters in media who share our identity.

And it’s time to stop pretending we ever were.

For more information about Non-Binary Erasure and how harmful it is, you can check out these articles:

https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/08/common-non-binary-erasure/

https://www.dailydot.com/irl/nonbinary-people-racism/

https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Nonbinary_erasure

https://traj.openlibhums.org/articles/10.16995/traj.422/

https://medium.com/an-injustice/everyday-acts-of-non-binary-erasure-49ee970654fb

https://medium.com/national-center-for-institutional-diversity/the-invisible-labor-of-liberating-non-binary-identities-in-higher-education-3f75315870ec

https://musingsofanacademicasexual.wordpress.com/2015/05/11/dear-sirmadam-a-commentary-on-non-binary-erasure/

4. How Do We Fix It?

Well, first things first: Stop acting like we don’t exist.

And kindly stop other people from doing it too.

We are a part of the LGBT+ community and we deserve to be acknowledged, no matter what our pronouns are.

Address non-binary people with the right pronouns. Don’t argue with them about their identity, don’t comment on how much you think they look like a boy or a girl. Just accept them and be respectful.

If a non-binary person tells you they have two sets of pronouns, for example he/him and they/them, don’t just use one set of pronouns. That can come off as disingenuous. Alternate between the pronouns, don’t leave one or the other out. It’ll probably be hard at first, but if you keep it up, you’ll get used to it pretty quickly.

If you’re witnessing someone harass a non-binary person over their identity, step in and help them.

And please, don’t partake in non-binary erasure in media fandoms.

Don’t misgender non-binary characters, don’t “speculate” on what you think their gender might be. You already know their gender and it’s non-binary. It costs exactly 0 $ to be a decent human being and accept that.

Support Non-Binary people by educating yourself about them and helping to normalize and integrate their identity.

In fact, here’s a list of petitions, organizations and articles who will help you do just that:

https://www.change.org/p/collegeboard-let-students-use-their-preferred-name-on-collegeboard-9abad81a-0fdf-435c-8fca-fe24a5df6cc7?source_location=topic_page

6 Ways to Support Your Non-Binary Child

7 Non-Negotiables for Supporting Trans & Non-Binary Students in Your Classroom

If Your Partner Just Came Out As Non-Binary, Here’s How To Support Them

How to Support Your Non-Binary Employees, Colleagues and Friends

Ko-fi page for the Nonbinary Wiki

The Sylvia Rivera Project, an organization who aims to give low-income and non-white transgender, intersex and non-binary people a voice

The Anti Violence Project “empowers lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and HIV-affected communities and allies to end all forms of violence through organizing and education, and supports survivors through counseling and advocacy."

The Trans Lifeline, a hotline for transgender people by transgender people

Tl:DR: Non-Binary representation is important. Non-Binary people still suffer from society at large not acknowledging our existence and forcing us to conform. Don’t be part of that problem by taking away what little representation we have. Educate yourself and do better instead. We deserve to be seen and heard.