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rainhadaenerys · 4 years ago

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A Response to the Dany/Sansa "Pawn to Player" meta

@lordofthesevenkingdoms and I talk a lot, and we usually discuss metas that we read. Some time ago, he showed me this meta from the "Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa Stark" project, named "The Mother Role Model and Its Impact on Character Development: The Case of Daenerys and Sansa". This meta is a very good example of how Sansa stans have been demeaning and mischaracterizing Dany to prop up Sansa for a long time.

Some people seem to have this notion that Sansa stans attacking Dany is a new phenomenon in the fandom. Some seem to think that the fight between Sansa stans and Dany stans only started because of the show and because of shipping wars (Jonsa vs Jonerys), and that book Sansa stans/non-Jonsa stans were always angels that never hated, demeaned or mischaracterized Dany. This meta that @lordofthesevenkingdoms showed me is an example of how this is not true, how Sansa stans attacking other characters like Dany to prop up their fave has always been a thing. The meta compares Dany and Sansa to talk about how Dany supposedly "lacks" as a mother because she doesn't have female influences in her life like Sansa, how Dany supposedly is a failure as a politician and diplomat because she lacked those influences, and, of course, how Sansa is better than Dany.

This actually isn't a meta I was planning to write. I just wrote a lot of rage comments as I was reading, so I decided to post them. Basically, this is me commenting all the stupids ideas in almost every paragraph of this meta.

First, a comment I made in a paragraph from the meta right before this one (because they're all in the same page and I ended up reading the end of the meta that comes before the Dany/Sansa one)

Westeros will receive but it doesn’t need any more kings and queens fighting for power and a throne. While there’s no doubt that Sansa would make a competent Queen who would employ love, and not fear, to inspire her subjects’ devotion, the evidence in her arc highlights that her power will not reside in traditional Queenship, but expressed through the aims of peacemaking. As we saw with Jon, Westeros needs peacemakers: people who can resist violence and reconcile differences.

Wtf. "No doubt Sansa would make a competent queen"??? Where did we see this? When did Sansa rule anything for us to have "no doubt" that she would be competent? Oh, because she said once that she would want to be loved if she was a queen? I'm sorry, but thinking "I want to be loved" doesn't guarantee that one will be competent, and love isn't all that is needed for a ruler (Dany is loved by her people, but that didn't make her queenship easy). Not to mention that this description of Jon's arc is already too simplistic. Jon's arc isn't about just "being a peacemaker". Jon's arc, just like Dany's, tackles both the benefits and the downsides of both peace and war, and love and duty. It isn't as simple as "peace=good, war=bad". This meta that came before the Dany/Sansa one isn't even about Dany, but we already see the digs at Dany here. "Westeros doesn't need more people fighting for power" (but it's totally ok if my fave fights for power/Winterfell, huh?), "Westeros needs peacemakers" (unlike that Dragon bitch that is incapable of peace and is good only for war) "Sansa will use love and not fear" (unlike that dragon bitch that uses fear to rule in the imaginary alternative ASOIAF book that I read). You can try to defend them by saying that the meta isn't saying this, but it's very much implied (especially considering that this meta already talks about "mothering", something the Dany/Sansa meta will accuse Dany of not being good at), and it was these ideas that were used for years to vilify Dany.

The Vale’s army: Could be deployed as a sort of peacekeeping force; I don’t see a scenario where they trek North to reclaim Sansa’s birthright as LF foretold. Doing so would mean going to war, starting with the death of SR. It’s fundamentally incompatible in light of Sansa’s personal and political mothering efforts.

*rolls eyes* This is ridiculous. So war=bad, it's the great wisdom Sansa stans keep repeating. So much that Sansa won't even go to war to reclaim Winterfell. I guess Sansa will just ask the Boltons politely to give her Winterfell and they will be so impressed by her political genius and courtesy and "mothering" that they will just give it to her. Or, most likely, Sansa will get Winterfell because Stannis has already reconquered it, which is a very convenient way to keep Sansa's hands clean, and it also makes it very convenient for Sansa stans to vilify any character (like Dany) who needs to go to war, who won't just be given things in a silver platter because of narrative convenience.

So yeah, I just commented on these two paragraphs that came before the Dany/Sansa meta because they already set the tone for the criticism that the next meta will level against Dany. You will see the same stupid logic and arguments being used against Dany. So let's start with the Dany/Sansa meta properly. I'll skip the first paragraphs of the meta because they are just describing obvious stuff like "Dany had no home, Sansa had a home, Dany had no mother role, Sansa had a mother role, Dany had no education, Sansa had an education", etc.

Much is made of Sansa’s initial naïveté regarding stories, but Dany only gets those stories as a wedding gift from Ser Jorah; she lacks even fairy tales as basic guidance. (to contextualize, the meta is trying to say that Dany has no experience or education, and therefore is unprepared while Sansa is prepared, blah, blah, blah)

Uhh, first, what's the evidence of this??? I find it incredibly unlikely that Dany has never heard a fairy tale in her life before she was given those books. Viserys certainly heard and knew fairy tales. And in fact, Dany tells her how he told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms:

Viserys had been stupid and vicious, she had come to realize, yet sometimes she missed him all the same. Not the cruel weak man he had become by the end, but the brother who had sometimes let her creep into his bed, the boy who told her tales of the Seven Kingdoms, and talked of how much better their lives would be once he claimed his crown. - Daenerys I ASOS

And we know that Viserys has taught Dany a lot about the history and culture of Westeros and the Targaryens (see here and here), so there's no reason to believe that Dany has never heard a story in her life. We also have other examples of Dany stating that she knows many songs and stories:

She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. - Daenerys I ASOS

One of her forebears, the third Aegon, had seen his own mother devoured by his uncle's dragon. And there were songs beyond count of villages and kingdoms that lived in dread of dragons till some brave dragonslayer rescued them. - Daenerys II ADWD

So this idea that Dany never heard songs and stories is ridiculous, and Dany doesn't lack any of that formative experience. This is not something that Sansa has and Dany doesn't.

When she initially finds Vaes Tolorro, a mother’s choice, a place to plant trees, she doesn’t embrace it as a home. She only embraces Meereen as “home” after seeing the destruction her intended method of claiming King’s Landing has brought upon Astapor.

Ugh. What is Dany's supposed "intended method" to claim King's Landing and Astapor? War? I guess Dany should have asked politely for the slavers to give up on slavery. I guess this shows how bad Dany is in comparison to Sansa, huh? I bet if Sansa was here, she would have used her charm and courtesy and would have convinced the slavers that slavery is bad, right? Unlike bad Dany who uses violence. It's the same argument that Sansa stans use to vilify Dany nowadays: violence=bad, Dany=violence, Dany=bad. These old metas were already creating this sort of mentality in the fandom, so this idea that book Sansa stans were angels before show stans and Jonsas happened is nonsense. Not to mention that this is a huge misunderstanding of the political, economical and military situation in Astapor. First, it was not Dany's "methods" that caused destruction in Astapor. The destruction of Astapor was caused by the slavers. Blaming Dany for this is blaming Dany for the actions of the slavers (a tendency that this fandom has, as this meta explains). Also, Dany's failure in Astapor has nothing to do with her "bad methods/violence" of conquering Astapor/how she plans to conquer King's Landing. Dany's failure was because she lacked experience to know that she needed to leave a garrison in Astapor, and none of her advisors advised her on this (see more here and here).

The role of Mother is defined by children and “home” is the place in the world a mother makes for those children. Dany didn’t recognize a home when she stumbled upon it because she never truly had one. With no female role models at all, she can only rely on the meager guidance of the two male figures who came closest to providing her with safety—Viserys and Khal Drogo. So it is little wonder she tries to carve out a place for her children with fire and blood.

What a bunch of bullshit. So for Dany to prove that she is a "real mother", she has to decide to stay in Vaes Tolorro, in the middle of the desert, in the middle of nowhere? Dany wanting more for herself (and for her people) is somehow a sign that she is not a "good mother", that she "doesn't recognize a home". UUUUGH. I wonder what Sansa would have done (since this essay seems to try to argue that Sansa is somehow a better mother figure than Dany because she had a mother figure that Dany didn't have). If Sansa was in Dany's place, would she have stayed in Vaes Tolorro? Would Sansa have stayed in the middle of nowhere, since this essay seems to say that this is what Dany should have done and that Sansa is better than Dany? Something tells me that Sansa would not be very content to stay in the middle of nowhere. In fact, we have quite a few examples of how Sansa would not be content with a place so desolated:

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth. - Sansa I AGOT

“Cheerful, is it not? I fear there’s no safe anchorage here. We’ll put ashore in a boat.”

“Here?” She did not want to go ashore here. The Fingers were a dismal place, she’d heard, and there was something forlorn and desolate about the little tower. “Couldn’t I stay on the ship until we make sail for White Harbor?”

[...]

Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You’re a woman grown, and you need to make your own home.”

“But not here,” she said, dismayed. “It looks so . . .”

“. . . small and bleak and mean? It’s all that, and less. The Fingers are a lovely place, if you happen to be a stone. But have no fear, we shan’t stay more than a fortnight. I expect your aunt is already riding to meet us.” He smiled. “The Lady Lysa and I are to be wed.” - Sansa VI ASOS

The essay says bullshit like "'home' is the place in the world a mother makes for those children", implying that Dany is incapable of "making her own home" while Sansa is capable (because how dare Dany not want to live in the middle of the desert), but Sansa, when told she needs to "make her own home", rejects the idea of staying in a desolate place. So yeah, this argument of this essay makes no sense and has no ground to stand on.

Sansa is quite different. In an emotionally cruel captivity in King’s Landing, she can find comfort in the Sept and the godswood, both religious traditions and beliefs that recall her parents with the latter also being a strong reminder of home itself. She never simply yearns for the place but also the company of family and the people of Winterfell in general.

Another bullshit. Sansa doesn't feel at home in King's Landing (or in the Eyrie, for that matter). In fact, she constantly yearns to return home, specifically, to Winterfell (a place):

Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian. - Sansa II ACOK

I pray for Robb's victory and Joffrey's death . . . and for home. For Winterfell. - Sansa III ACOK

"That will need to be determined. For the moment, you shall remain here at court, as our ward."

"I want to go home." - Sansa VIII ACOK

"From here the King turns east for Braavos. Without us."

"But . . . my lord, you said . . . you said we were sailing home." - Sansa VI ASOS

"As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home."

She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell. - Sansa VII ASOS

The Eyrie was no home. - Sansa VII ASOS

So this idea that Sansa "never simply yearns for the place" is bullshit. And Dany also wants family and company just like Sansa. I won't bother to show examples here because @lordofthesevenkingdoms has already made a huge compilation of the moments of Dany yearning for company here.

She is able to tap into memories of Bran while she encourages Tommen.

Uhh, Dany also has memories of her brother. Not to mention that, if the argument here is that Sansa's positive memories of her family inspire her to be a good person (like encouraging Tommmen), then it's an idiot argument, because Dany doesn't have as many positive memories and yet she is still a good person. She didn't need her family to inspire herself to be a good person, she became a good and kind person by herself. So the lack of these "memories" was in no way detrimental to Dany and in no way made Sansa better than Dany.

She is able to disregard her surrogate mother Cersei’s advice because she has a different role model in Cat (something Dany can’t do with MMD or the Green Grace because these are her first real female encounters ever).

???? No…? lol, Sansa had a female role model and she still fell for Cersei's deceptions. Sansa is not immune to being deceived and betrayed lmao. Dany being betrayed by Mirri or by the Green Grace is a question of political game and it simply shows that nobody is perfect when it comes to seeing through other people's intentions. What the author is probably referring to when they say that Sansa "is able to disregard her surrogate mother Cersei’s advice because she has a different role model in Cat" is the moment where Cersei advises Sansa to rule through fear, and Sansa thinks that if she becomes a queen she wants to be loved. If this is what the author means, then well, Dany didn't need a role model to learn this. Dany has decided that she doesn't want to rule through fear all by herself, despite the fact that she had no role model to teach her that:

The thought of home disquieted her. If her sun-and-stars had lived, he would have led his khalasar across the poison water and swept away her enemies, but his strength had left the world. Her bloodriders remained, sworn to her for life and skilled in slaughter, but only in the ways of the horselords. The Dothraki sacked cities and plundered kingdoms, they did not rule them. Dany had no wish to reduce King's Landing to a blackened ruin full of unquiet ghosts. She had supped enough on tears. I want to make my kingdom beautiful, to fill it with fat men and pretty maids and laughing children. I want my people to smile when they see me ride by, the way Viserys said they smiled for my father. - Daenerys II ACOK

"I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn't have done that. He wasn't just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?" - Daenerys III ASOS

"No, Magnificence." Reznak bowed. "Shall I send these rascals away, or will you want them scourged?"

Daenerys shifted on the bench. "No man should ever fear to come to me." Some claims were false, she did not doubt, but more were genuine. Her dragons had grown too large to be content with rats and cats and dogs. The more they eat, the larger they will grow, Ser Barristan had warned her, and the larger they grow, the more they'll eat. Drogon especially ranged far afield and could easily devour a sheep a day. "Pay them for the value of their animals," she told Reznak, "but henceforth claimants must present themselves at the Temple of the Graces and swear a holy oath before the gods of Ghis." - Daenerys I ADWD

So not having a female role model didn't make Dany worse than Sansa in any way.

She’s had a mother and younger siblings, so she can become the person Colemon and Lothor Brune seek help from in dealing with Sweetrobin.

lol, apparently Dany has never taken care of anyone, huh? She never took care of Missandei, she never worried about Belwas' health, lol, nope, Dany never did anything of the sort. Only Sansa takes care of people, apparently.

Even when Littlefinger lies to her about taking her home, she is able to rebuild Winterfell in snow and draw strength from it. She is stronger within the walls of a Winterfell she built for herself in exile.

LMAO, so…????? That doesn't mean literally anything…? I mean, all characters have certain things that they do that inspires them to find strength and move on???? So what if Sansa finds strength in Winterfell's snow castle? Dany draws strength from stories of her brother, she draws strength from her hrakkar pelt, she draws strength from her feeling of responsibility over her people… what does this person even want to say with this????

This sense of home allows Sansa to mother herself, while Dany’s lack of it plays into her frustration, depression, and arguably her need for Daario’s companionship when a part of her believes she should avoid it.

Uhh, Dany's depression has to do with her political situation and her much bigger responsibilities. I don't even understand what this person is trying to say here. What do they mean with "Sansa mothers herself"? Is the author trying to say that Sansa is stronger and more resilient than Dany because she has a "sense of home" that Dany doesn't have? This is ridiculous. Because Dany is incredibly strong and resilient, only an idiot would say that she isn't. Dany has survived rape, she has survived losing her brother, her husband and her son, she has survived seeing her people die in the desert and be killed by the slavers, she has survived different assassinations attempts (the wineseller, the Sorrowful Men, Mero, the poisoner in Daznak's Pit), she has conquered cities, freed thousands of slaves, taken care of thousands of people, and is still standing against slave masters that want to take her down and enslave her people. Dany has survived all of this and her spirit hasn't been broken, she is still fighting for her people and for what she believes is right. How can anyone say that Dany "isn't as strong as Sansa" because Dany "doesn't have a sense of home"? Not having a home didn't make Dany weaker. Dany is just as capable of "mothering herself".

And the Daario mention is also ridiculous. This is just like those misogynistic dudebros who think Dany is "stupid" for having a crush and sleeping with Daario. Dany has never let her feelings for Daario influence her decisions (see here). The assumption that a teenage girl having a crush or sleeping with someone makes her "stupid" is a sexist assumption, because no one would say the same of a male ruler who decided to have a lover.

Dany’s marriage fortunes turn out fairly well despite it all (sure, there’s ample room to quibble, but not when Viserys is the starting point…). Drogo seems to genuinely care for her and she begins to develop a sense of belonging, if not “home.”

No comments. Just… no comments.

Yet Dany still lacks any real role models; her only female companions are her handmaidens who are in truth slaves. While Sansa learns about dealing with men from Septa Mordane who is an authority figure placed over her by her mother, Dany learns about men from a former whore who serves her as a slave given to her by her brother.

Wtf again. Why the fuck is Sansa better than Dany because she has "female role models"? What exactly those role models gave to Sansa that Dany doesn't have? Because it seems to me that despite not having "female role models", Dany turned out pretty great. Not to mention that this is a circular argument: "having female role models made Sansa better than Dany. Why is Sansa better than Dany? Because she had female role models". It's a circular argument.

It's also a sexist argument, by the way. This idealization of womanhood, as if women were the only people who could ever be good, as if the only way to turn out good and intelligent is by having women to teach you, is sexist. It's a form of benevolent sexism that puts women in a pedestal while also enforcing traditional gender roles as the only thing acceptable (as an example, there's the idea that only woman are capable of being caring and nurturing, so they need to assume that position and they are the only ones who could teach how to be caring).

Dany has no equals or superiors among women and no exposure to a social hierarchy. In fact, I don’t think Dany recalls the name of a single female in her life prior to the events we see.

So what....???

Sansa has her mother and Septa Mordane as authority figures, and her sister is her equal other than the minor factor of a small age difference. She has Jeyne and Beth in her circle of friends, who she learns to treat as equals despite the station difference, and maids among the smallfolk who are at a lower level.

"Jeyne and Beth in her circle of friends, who she learns to treat as equals" -> Where is this said in the books? We don't know how "egalitarian" Sansa's treatment of Jeyne and Beth was. We don't have that information in the books for the essay to make this statement. And considering the classist ideas that Sansa has in the beginning of the books (and still has even as far as the ending of ASOS, when she doesn't like the idea of being a bastard), I find it hard to believe that Sansa treated them as "equals", especially considering how aware of social distinctions Sansa is.

Old Nan has no station of note, but is respected for her age and service to the Stark family. And almost immediately, Sansa is exposed to a Queen and Princess who while in her social stratum are her superiors. A huge part of motherhood is guiding children on the path to finding a place in the world, and to do that one must first know what those places are. We see Sansa clearly exposed to and comfortable with understanding how people fit into those places, while Dany’s experience is limited to being a slave and a free person with slave-owner authority over others and little if anything in between.

LMAO, so this Sansa stan is saying that Sansa is a better maternal figure because she accepts traditional hierarchies, "knows her place" and "knows people's places". WOW. Besides, Dany did have people in her life that were superior to her. She grew up in the streets, for fuck's sake. In each nobility house she and her brother were received, she was less powerful, living there as a favor, and inferior in hierarchy. And those noble houses that received her and her brother certainly had women that were superior to her. Not to mention that it doesn't freaking matter whether Dany has women that are superior or inferior to her in hierarchy, because she did know people who were both inferior and superior to her in hierarchy in her life, and that's more than enough for her to understand how hierarchy works. These people don't need to be women for Dany to understand hierarchy (what even is this argument?). Besides, just because a person doesn't have people who are inferior or superior to them, that doesn't mean they won't understand hierarchy, LMAO. Everyone who lives in a society understands social hierarchy! Unless, I guess, if you're autistic or have a lot of difficulty in understanding social interactions, but this is not the case for Dany. It's practically impossible for people to live in society and not understand social hierarchy. Dany not having women superior to her doesn't prevent her from understanding basic facts about how a society works. And in fact, Dany excels when it comes to social interactions, understanding different societies, etc. We literally see Dany being capable to adapt and understand the culture of every place she goes. This includes understanding the hierarchy of each culture, and we have plenty of examples of Dany understanding hierarchy of different cultures (X, X, X, X, X). Not to mention that we do see Dany talking about hierarchy several times in the books. Remember when Dany was sad that Daario wasn't highborn enough to marry her? Or how he was not fit, by her society standards, to even buckle the spurs of a landed knight? Or how she thought Jorah had crossed the line when he kissed her, because she was his queen and his birth was too low for her? Honestly, this argument was ridiculous. Saying that Dany is not as capable of understanding society and hierarchy as Sansa is just because she supposedly didn't have women superior to her in her life is ridiculous.

We see the results of this repeatedly throughout the series. Despite being in a position of extraordinary weakness in King’s Landing, Sansa is able to engage those around her. Tyrion is impressed by how well she navigates social functions, and her skills in this regard play into the Tyrell women finding her a desirable asset for their House even if less than benevolent in their motivations—a role they’ll reject Cersei for. We see Sansa dance at her own miserable wedding and socially engage those around her.

Well, thankfully, I wrote a very long meta demonstrating how Dany is also very good at courtesy and social skills. So I won't bother with a longer response on this topic. You can read the meta here. As always, this meta made another nonsensical and unfounded argument.

Dany is in a position of power in Meereen, but does very little socializing even at public events.

Apparently, listening to hundreds of petitions in court is not socializing in a public event. Apparently, having councils where freedmen participate (like Rylonna Rhee, or the leaders of the freedmen fighting companies) is not socializing in a public event. Apparently, her conversation with Xaro and the reception she prepares to receive him and for his dancers is not socializing. Apparently, having dinner with the Green Grace and Hizdahr, ordering the graces to be entertained while she and the Green Grace speak, none of this is socializing. Apparently, we should measure Dany's ability to socialize by that one (1) party in which she was frustrated with the peace and didn't want to talk to anyone. The thing is, that one moment does not define Dany and it does not speak to her political abilities in socializing, especially considering that Dany had no need to socialize at that party, because as Dany herself notes, she wasn't worried about socializing at that party because Hizdahr was already doing that for her (which is more his role than hers anyway, because he is her consort, while Dany is a ruling queen):

So Daenerys sat silent through the meal, wrapped in a vermilion tokar and black thoughts, speaking only when spoken to, brooding on the men and women being bought and sold outside her walls, even as they feasted here within the city. Let her noble husband make the speeches and laugh at the feeble Yunkish japes. That was a king's right and a king's duty. - Daenerys VIII ADWD

Also, the quote above shows very well that Dany does understand the political need to socialize: she says herself that entertaining guests was a king's right and a king's duty. The only reason she wasn't doing it herself was because Hizdahr was already doing and she saw no need to go there herself (she wasn't in the mood because the peace deals meant she would have to accept slavery outside Meereen, and if Hizdahr was already doing it, then she doesn't really have to).

Besides, Dany did do the basic, because she know that she had to. She mentions how she was drinking and smiling with these people, because she knows it's necessary even though she hates them:

I hate this, thought Daenerys Targaryen. How did this happen, that I am drinking and smiling with men I’d sooner flay? - Daenerys VIII ADWD

So Daenerys clearly understands the need of socialization and courtesies. She's not such an incompetent idiot as this Sansa stan wants to believe. And if this Sansa stan is going to claim that Dany has bad social skills because she brooded at one party (despite all the other many examples of Dany having good social skills), I could do the same to Sansa. I could take all of Sansa's slips and mistakes in courtesy and claim that Sansa is also has bad social skills. Just to give a few examples:

"Leave her alone," Joffrey said. He stood over her, beautiful in blue wool and black leather, his golden curls shining in the sun like a crown. He gave her his hand, drew her to her feet. "What is it, sweet lady? Why are you afraid? No one will hurt you. Put away your swords, all of you. The wolf is her little pet, that's all." He looked at Sandor Clegane. "And you, dog, away with you, you're scaring my betrothed."

The Hound, ever faithful, bowed and slid away quietly through the press. Sansa struggled to steady herself. She felt like such a fool. She was a Stark of Winterfell, a noble lady, and someday she would be a queen. “It was not him, my sweet prince,” she tried to explain. “It was the other one.”

The two stranger knights exchanged a look. "Payne?" chuckled the young man in the green armor. - Sansa I AGOT

“Oh,” said Sansa. I am talking to him, and he’s touching me, he’s holding my arm and touching me. “The Queen of Thorns, she’s called. Isn’t that right?”

“It is.” Ser Loras laughed. He has the warmest laugh, she thought as he went on, “You’d best not use that name in her presence, though, or you’re like to get pricked.”

Sansa reddened. Any fool would have realized that no woman would be happy about being called “the Queen of Thorns.” Maybe I truly am as stupid as Cersei Lannister says. Desperately she tried to think of something clever and charming to say to him, but her wits had deserted her. She almost told him how beautiful he was, until she remembered that she’d already done that. - Sansa I ASOS

I could point out how impolite it was for Sansa to publicly say that Ser Illyn scared her. I could point out Sansa's slip in calling Olenna "Queen of Thorns". I could use these mistakes to make an exaggerated claim that Sansa has terrible social skills. But of course, Sansa stans wouldn't like this, and would point out all the other moments in which Sansa displays social skills. So why is it that Dany is deemed incapable of social skills because she brooded at one party, despite the fact that Dany has plenty of other moments in which she displays great social skills? That's a double standard and intellectual dishonesty.

It isn’t that Dany fails to personally win over political players so much as that she doesn’t know that she should be going through certain motions to even try.

What. The. Hell. Did this person even read ADWD???? The very quotes I showed above already show that Dany understands very well the need to go through these motions (she knows she needs to smile, she knows that it's a king's duty to entertain the Yunkish and only doesn't do this because Hizdahr is already doing this for her). And the entirety of ADWD is Dany thinking of being polite, thinking that she needs to have dinner with the Green Grace (and entertain her guests at the same time), being courteous at court, sending Hizdahr to negotiate the support of the nobility, thinking she has to be courteous to Gallaza's cousin, marrying Hizdahr to gain support, thinking that she needs to unite freedmen and former masters to bring peace… the entirety of ADWD is Daenerys trying to be courteous, diplomatic and make peace. And this is just ADWD. In ACOK Dany is courteous and flatters the Pureborn. In ASOS, Dany is courteous to Kraznys in order to conceal her intentions in Astapor. This Sansa stan just has no idea what they're talking about. (And again, here's the link to my meta about Dany, courtesy and social skills).

We don’t ever see Dany dance at a celebration, or make others feel at ease with little compliments, or even just chat.

Wtf. First, this kind of comparison can't really be made between Dany and Sansa, because we only see Dany at one party. Dany's story is different from Sansa's, which means that Dany just doesn't have as many parties like we see Sansa go. This is not Dany's fault, they are simply different narratives.

So Dany's story only has one party shown (the peace celebrations), and no one is mentioned dancing. Actually, the only people mentioned dancing were Yunkish dancers, that is, professional dancers, and they are said to be slaves. So that's another thing that needs to be considered if you're trying to compare Dany and Sansa's social skills: they are navigating different cultures. We don't actually have full information about this, but considering that the only people mentioned dancing are "dancers", the slavers probably consider dancing to be something done by the slaves to entertain their masters. Meaning that Dany dancing at that party would be really out of place. So saying that Dany "doesn't dance" and that Sansa "dances" really isn't a good measure of how their social skills compare. Similarly, in the feast of Xaro's visit, we also see dancers entertaining them, and those dancers were also slaves. Once again, this is not an appropriate moment for Dany herself to dance: they are supposed to only watch the dancers (and when the dance ends Dany is very polite, praises the dancers and arranges baths and food for them, which shows that she has very good social skills).

As for Dany trying to make others feel at ease with compliments or chatting, we actually see Dany doing this many times. As already mentioned above, Dany praises the dancers. When Dany meets Quentyn, she makes a jape to ease the tension in the room. And even after she marries Hizdahr, she still goes to have a private conversation with Quentyn, because she still wants to be in good terms with him and still wants his support for when she goes to Westeros. So this shows that Dany understands very well the political importance of chatting, compliments, etc. In my meta about Dany, courtesy an social skills, there are even more examples of Dany using compliments, chatting, etc.

A great deal of the flat portrayal of the Meereenese is Dany’s failure to gossip, to learn there is a Lancel-like sick son she ought to inquire after or even discover that two families have a feud like the Brackens and Blackwoods. Sansa is fully armored, the garb of Westeros, in courtesy while Dany only thinks to put on floppy ears—a token facsimile of being Meereenese. Part of the maternal social role is to know, as Cat described it, the hearts and hearths issues of other families, and Sansa is fully engaged in this respect, but Dany isn’t because she’s never even seen another woman in a social environment.

Uhhh, maybe because gossip isn't relevant for Dany's narrative??? See, Dany's narrative goes beyond trivial matters and machinations that we see in the Westerosi narrative. Dany is trying to make a revolution, to replace an entire economy, and she is dealing with a nobility that is mostly her enemy. Not because Dany has "failed" in making them friends, but because of the very different nature of their interests (Dany wants to end slavery, the slavers want slavery back and are organizing a terrorist organization that is killing Dany's people). So it's very unlikely that they will want to have any kind of nice chats and meetings with Dany, and even more unlikely that they would be gossiping with her and revealing secrets to her. The very nature of Dany's political situation and narrative makes it impossible for her to have a close relationship with the nobility, and this is not Dany's fault, it's not Dany's failure, it's because the slavers have very different interests that they won't let go. So trying to compare this with whatever gossip or close relationship that Sansa has with nobles that aren't her political enemies is completely unfair.

Not only that, but despite not seeing "gossip" properly, we do see Dany receiving, listening and caring about information regarding the noble families of Meereen. After Dany has just taken Meereen, she already knows who is related to who, to the point that she knows that the family Pahl will oppose her fiercely because she crucified one of their family members and another was killed in the battle to take Meereen. That shows that even in the beginning of Dany's stay in Meereen, she is already gathering information about Meereenese society. When Grazdan comes to her court, she knows the importance of being courteous to him, because she knows he is a cousin of the Green Grace. In her very first chapter of ADWD, she already knows not only who Hizdahr is, but that he has many friends in many cities, that he is very influential, and that he has bought the fighting pits in order to make money. She knows her child hostages personally and knows from which families each of them came. She knows that Skahaz is hated in Meereen, which leads her to conclude that marrying him would gain her nothing. All of this shows that Dany is very much aware of Meereenese society. Sure, she doesn't always get all the nuances, like understanding the importance of Hizdahr's ancestors and how the Loraq family is more prestigious than the Kandaq family, but that doesn't mean Dany does nothing to understand the society of the city she is ruling. And I would bet that if Sansa was in Dany's place, she also wouldn't understand all the nuances, because just like Dany, Sansa would also be an outsider to that society and would need time to adapt. It's only natural that Dany doesn't yet understand all nuances of Meereenese society, but we do see that Dany knows plenty and makes an effort to learn more. She is not ignorant and she is not unwilling to learn.

And again, this argument that "part of the maternal social role is to know, as Cat described it, the hearts and hearths issues of other families, and Sansa is fully engaged in this respect, but Dany isn’t because she’s never even seen another woman in a social environment" is a ridiculous argument, because once again there's this assumption that only women are capable of social skills and courtesies, and that because Dany "didn't have a female role model", Dany will never be capable of that. It's a sexist argument that once again enforces traditional gender roles and gender essentialism, because it assumes that, unless someone has a woman teaching them, they'll never understand these things (and as we see with Dany, this is not true, she has learned all of these things without having a "female role model").

Finally, using the rivalry of the Brackens and Blackwoods as an example of how Sansa knows more gossip than Dany is hilarious and stupid, because Sansa never mentions the rivalry between the Brackens and the Blackwoods in her chapters lol.

Has Dany ever even held a baby? I can’t think of where she has or would have. Sansa has her younger siblings with her mother’s example to begin to learn how to be a mother. Arya used to come up with names for the smallfolk’s children, and while Sansa frowned on her sister’s fondness for associating below her station, newborns in a community like Winterfell are celebrated, so Sansa likely had the opportunity to coo over each newborn and also got to witness the mothering practices of all the families in Winterfell. We see this difference in background play out in their stories.

"Has Dany ever even held a baby? I can’t think of where she has or would have." -> If this Sansa stan can just assume with little evidence that Sansa was "cooing over newborns" from all Winterfell, I can also assume that Dany has probably held a baby of one of the rich families that took her and her brother in. If Sansa stans need no evidence to make their statements and can make assumptions on so little, then so can I. Besides, how the hell is this even relevant???? Dany holding babies or not doesn't make her less maternal, and it doesn't make Sansa superior. For fuck's sake. Also, whether Sansa held a baby or cooed over a baby in the past doesn't really determine how maternal she will be. I am an older sister who had a younger brother that was almost 9 years younger than me, so I did get to hold him quite frequently, and yet, years after, I don't think I still know very well how to hold a baby and I wouldn't consider myself very "motherly". Honestly, none of this determines anything, and we do see Dany being motherly throughout her entire story. This is a freaking bullshit argument.

Barristan trains knights for Dany; he has 27 boys he thinks of as “his orphans,” yet Dany has never come to see them train or practice. These orphans have entered the service of the one they call “Mother,” but Dany isn’t aware of how to offer motherly encouragement to them like Sansa is—or even aware that she should.

Princess Myrcella nodded a shy greeting at the sound of Sansa’s name, but plump little Prince Tommen jumped up eagerly. “Sansa, did you hear? I’m to ride in the tourney today. Mother said I could.” Tommen was all of eight. He reminded her of her own little brother, Bran. They were of an age. Bran was back at Winterfell, a cripple, yet safe.

Sansa would have given anything to be with him. “I fear for the life of your foeman,” she told Tommen solemnly.

Tommen gave a shout of joy and ran off to be readied, his chubby little legs pumping hard. “Luck,” Sansa called to him.

Sansa found herself possessed of a queer giddy courage. “You should go with her,” she told the king. “Your brother might be hurt.”

Joffrey shrugged. “What if he is?”

“You should help him up and tell him how well he rode.” Sansa could not seem to stop herself.

“He got knocked off his horse and fell in the dirt,” the king pointed out. “That’s not riding well.”

The result is this contrast between the very personal motherly attention Sansa gives Tommen with this distant maternal archetype of a woman that inspired these orphans’ calling, but who doesn’t even know their names.

Again, this is nonsense. This example with Sansa encouraging Tommen and telling Joffrey to go to him doesn't work as a point of comparison, because the situation is circumstantial: Sansa was there at the moment, so obviously she would encourage Tommen. But she didn't go there for the sole reason of encouraging Tommen.

Besides, it's not true that Dany never encourages/praises people or that she never acts as a "mother":

Smoke hung between the purple pillars. The dancers knelt, heads bowed. “You were splendid,” Dany told them. “Seldom have I seen such grace, such beauty.” - Daenerys III ADWD

“They said no.” The wine tasted of pomegranates and hot summer days. “They said it with great courtesy, to be sure, but under all the lovely words, it was still no.”

“Did you flatter them?”

“Shamelessly.” - Daenerys III ACOK

So above we see two examples of Dany praising people. But not only that, but there are also moments in which Dany does go to people to encourage them:

Children ran behind their horses, skipping and laughing. Instead of salutes, voices called to her on every side in a babble of tongues. Some of the freedmen greeted her as “Mother,” while others begged for boons or favors. Some prayed for strange gods to bless her, and some asked her to bless them instead. She smiled at them, turning right and left, touching their hands when they raised them, letting those who knelt reach up to touch her stirrup or her leg. Many of the freedmen believed there was good fortune in her touch. If it helps give them courage, let them touch me, she thought. There are hard trials yet ahead … - Daenerys V ASOS

Even feeding them had grown difficult. Every day she sent them what she could, but every day there were more of them and less food to give them. It was growing harder to find drivers willing to deliver the food as well. Too many of the men they had sent into the camp had been stricken by the flux themselves. Others had been attacked on the way back to the city. Yesterday a wagon had been overturned and two of her soldiers killed, so today the queen had determined that she would bring the food herself. Every one of her advisors had argued fervently against it, from Reznak and the Shavepate to Ser Barristan, but Daenerys would not be moved. "I will not turn away from them," she said stubbornly. "A queen must know the sufferings of her people."

[...]

“Go if you wish, ser. I will not detain you. I will not detain any of you.” Dany vaulted down from the horse. “I cannot heal them, but I can show them that their Mother cares.” - Daenerys VI ADWD

Just because we didn't hear anything specifically about these orphans, that doesn't mean she never encourages anyone, or that she never thinks about the political importance that this has (as the quotes above show, she does understand the political importance of encouragement and showing that their mother cares). Besides, who's to say that Dany never went to them? Who's to say that Dany doesn't know their names? Dany constantly makes a point in remembering people's names. She remembers Hazzea, she remembers Rylonna Rhee, she remembers Stalwart Shield, she remembers Mossador. Remembering and giving importance to people's names is something very important to Dany's character, so who is to say that she didn't know their names? Most likely, the fact that we never hear their names in Dany's POV is simply because GRRM didn't think it was relevant to mention at the moment. In case some people forget, this is still a story, you know? No writer is going to write every single thing that happens in a character's life, no writer is going to name every single character that is mentioned in a story, and just because we don't see something, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. So saying that Dany never went to visit the orphans is not really a proof that Dany doesn't think about encouraging her people, especially considering that we do have other examples in which Dany does encourage her people, and does act like "a mother" to them.

Also, even if Dany had indeed never gone to visit those orphans and never knew their names, that doesn't mean that she never acts maternal/encourages her people, or that she never thinks on the political importance of this (as the quotes above show). Not to mention that if Dany never went to visit the orphans, it could have been for many different motives. Dany is a ruling queen, not a consort. So she has many other duties (like, you know… governing) and it could very well mean that she had no time to go. As a ruling queen of a big city, Dany really can't go to every corner of her city to personally encourage every single person in her city. While a queen consort could go from place to place more often, a ruling queen can't always do this. And actually, it isn't really her job. It's something no one would chastise a male ruler for not doing, but since Sansa stans are obsessed with traditional femininity, they go on about how supposedly "politically incapable Dany is" for not visiting one group of orphans, which is ridiculous considering that we do see Dany encouraging people. Ugh.

There’s also the dynamic with other women. The closest thing Dany has to an equal or a friend is Missandei. When they have one of their most personal talks, Missandei tells Dany about her home, and Dany offers to get a ship to send her back, but Missandei prefers to stay. Dany offered the best thing she knew how based on her experience, she wanted to give the closest thing she knew to her own house in Braavos memory; but it is fairly clear that Missandei has moved well beyond her old home and needs to build a new one, to find her place in the world much like Dany’s own struggle. Even though Dany is fairly consumed with her own future husband, she never thinks to try and provide for Missandei in this regard, something that comes as second nature to Sansa.

UUUUUUUUUUGH. Where do I even begin. Well, first, what's the implicit premise of this argument? Well, it's trying to say that Dany is too self centered to see Missandei's real needs or wishes, and that instead, she only suggests to Missandei what she herself would have wanted, which is to go home. So this makes Dany a bad mother who is incapable of providing for Missandei. And then they go on to say that Sansa, unlike Dany, is good at this, because Sansa, of course, has had "female influences" that Dany didn't have, which makes mothering second nature to Sansa while Dany is a failure. This argument is on the same level of the Jonsa arguments that distort the text to claim that Dany only cared about Doreah when she was dying because Doreah taught her how to please Drogo (as if Dany couldn't feel grateful AND feel empathy at the same time, as if it could only be one or the other). It's the same level of intellectual dishonesty. And honestly, what a bullshit argument.

First, because it's not Dany who is failing to understand Missandei, the person who wrote this essay is the one who is failing to understand Missandei's motivations. It's a completely natural thing that Dany would offer Missandei to go home. Missandei's brother had just been murdered! Dany literally tells Missandei "I will send you from this awful place", because she is worried about Missandei's safety, because Meereen is a dangerous city, and she is asking if Missandei would want to stay in a city in which her brother has just been murdered! Like… asking if Missandei wants to leave this city and go home is a very normal and logical thing to ask! Anyone with common sense and empathy would have asked the same, it's not a "failure" on Dany's side to understand Missandei's wishes (I bet the Sansa stan who wrote this meta didn't even remember the context in which Dany offers to send Missandei home. They probably didn't even remember that Missandei had a brother. So the one who is being oblivious about Missandei is this Sansa stan, not Dany). Also, it's not "fairly clear that Missandei has moved well beyond her old home and needs to build a new one". Quite the opposite, actually. When Missandei refuses Dany's offer to go back to Naath, it's not because she doesn't want to return to Naath or because she loves Meereen (pfff) and wants to build a home in Meereen. It's because Missandei is too afraid to go back to Naath, afraid that she would be taken by slavers again. She literally says this in the scene!

And Dany IS trying to build a home for Missandei! In this very scene, she talks about how she wants to protect Missandei! And Dany is trying to build a new world, a new Meereen, rebuild an economy, defeat the people who are killing her people, bring peace, she is doing all of this to build a home for Missandei and for her people! Honestly, it's so ridiculous how this person tries to distort Dany's genuine compassion and worry for Missandei after her brother was killed into "oh, Dany is so self-centered and doesn't understand Missandei, and Sansa is better than her". But this is what Stansas always do with Dany. Distort all the good things Dany does or thinks into something bad somehow. (And as you can see, this is not a recent thing, is not just Jonsas or show stans that do this, so let's stop with this bullshit about how the ASOIAF fandom was better before the show stans, or how Sansa stans were little angels uwu).

Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age.

What the fuck does this person want to prove with this quote? That Sansa is perceptive and sees what Jeyne really wants (unlike bad mother Dany that doesn't see what Missandei supposedly wants?)? Well, we have a ton of examples of Dany being perceptive and seeing what people want. If Dany was self-centered and not perceptive as this person tried to imply, Dany would have never realized that the weaver from Astapor was angry with her, she would think everything is fine. She would never realize Illyrio's small smile that Viserys doesn't notice. And so on.

We see it again with Lothor Brune and Mya Stone. Sansa notices he always smiles when he speaks of Mya, and then wonders what Mya thinks of him. She assesses him and concludes that he’d be a good match for her as a person and for their mutual stations; and wonders if Mya could do better and thinks if her father had acknowledged her that she could, but as an unacknowledged bastard Brune is a good choice so long as Mya is content with the match.

Again, we have a ton of examples of Dany being perceptive. We also have examples of Dany thinking of social hierarchies and how it affects marriage. Just because Dany is not involved in romantic gossip (because her narrative is not about this), doesn't mean Dany is an idiot that doesn't see anything. Not to mention that this does seem like this Sansa stan is trying to imply that because Dany is not traditionally feminine and doesn't care about things like romantic gossip the way Sansa does, she would be a worse politician than Sansa. Which is a sexist tendency of the Sansa fandom to demean or even demonize any female character that doesn't perfectly fit into traditional femininity. Also, you know, it should be perfectly ok if Dany's personality is different from Sansa and if she doesn't care as much about romantic gossip. She doesn't have to have the same traditionally feminine personality and interests as Sansa in order to be a good politician and ruler, and she is perfectly capable of arranging a political marriage even if romantic gossip isn't a natural interest of hers (which is actually debatable, there aren't many situations from which we could infer whether Dany is interested or not in these things).

Without a stable family background and role models, Dany doesn’t know how to do this or even that she should be doing this maternal role. She doesn’t think to take Missandei to watch one of Selmy’s training sessions to see if any future knights and Missandei exchange smiles. She doesn’t think of making matches for Irri or Jhiqui when they’re going through their “it is known” spat over who Rakharo likes more. Missandei’s choice to not go home is a choice to build a new home elsewhere, and Dany empathizes and identifies with her, but despite her own inner desires to find love never thinks to embrace that facet of the matriarchal role and find a match for her.

Again, this is nonsense. This is not Dany's role. First, why the hell would Dany take Missandei to "exchange sparks" and seek marriage with Barristan's orphans? Missandei is freaking 11!!!!!! And why would she try to arrange marriage for Jhiqui and Irri considering that Dothraki society is so different and has different values? Not to mention that, despite the fact that Dany is close to Jhiqui and Irri, they are still servants. Did every "good" Westerosi Queen go around arranging marriages for all of their servants? Arranging marriage for them not only is not necessary (Missandei is 11 and Jhiqui and Irri can find someone themselves), but it's also not politically relevant, because none of them come from rich or influential families that would allow Dany to make political alliances through marriage. No Meereenese noble would accept to marry former slaves and servants. Finally, Dany not being a matchmaker doesn't make her less maternal, as there are plenty of other moments showing how maternal Dany is, and it doesn't make her a bad politician (as we see that Dany understands very well these matters, but finding a match for Missandei, Irri or Jhiqui really isn't Dany's pressing concern at the moment. And neither should it be. Her people are dying, for fuck's sake.

There is also an interesting contrast in their relationships with “old women.” Dany tried to be maternal with Mirri Maz Duur and was rejected and betrayed. She is trying to be a mother to the Green Grace’s city, and finds another hostile reception if not the very Harpy that plagues her. In the first, Dany advocated Dothraki marrying the Lamb women, and in the second Dany herself is going to marry a Ghiscari. These older women do not see or identify with Dany as a maternal figure or welcome her maternal influence into their realms. In Sansa’s case, though both Cersei and Olenna’s intentions toward her were less than benevolent, both of these older women sought Sansa out not just as a marriage for their House but the favorite son/grandson and heir as well. They want Sansa as the matriarch of their next generation.

This is nonsense. Mirri and the Green Grace are Dany’s enemies. Olenna Tyrell is not Sansa’s enemy (and Cersei is keeping Sansa as a political hostage). Mirri Maz Duur wanted revenge against Drogo. Olenna didn’t want revenge against Sansa. The Green Grace wanted slavery to come back to Meereen, which is why she is a political opponent and has different interests from Dany. Olenna doesn’t have different interests from Sansa. Mirri or the Green Grace “not seeing or identifying with Dany as a maternal figure” or “not welcoming her maternal influence into their realms” has nothing to do with any failure on Dany’s part, it has nothing to do with Dany not having good “motherly instincts” or with Dany not having good social skills. It has to do with the fact that they were never going to support Dany, no matter what Dany did, because they either wanted revenge or had radically different political interests. Also, Olenna wanting to marry Sansa to Willas has nothing to do with Sansa’s social skills or “motherly instincts”. She wants Sansa to marry Willas because of Sansa’s claim and because of her own political ambitions. As soon as Sansa is married to Tyrion, the Tyrells drop her, that is, Sansa’s “charm” and “courtesy” was not enough for them to fight for her or want to help her (I mean, Olenna cared so little for Sansa that she didn’t care that Sansa and Tyrion would take the blame for Joffrey’s murder). And with Cersei is the same. She accepted Joffrey marrying Sansa because Robert wanted. But she had no problem in replacing Sansa when it suited her, and Sansa was just a political hostage after that. Sansa’s “charm” and “courtesy” didn’t prevent Cersei from being horrible to her.

So while Dany’s arc touches on almost every maternal theme in a literary sense (and quite powerfully, I would add), Dany herself struggles as a mother largely because she has nothing even close to a role model, and is so ill-prepared by her prior life for the task. She approaches motherhood from the deficits fate and experience have imposed upon her. She wants to protect “her children” from her own negative experiences, but is unaware of how to nurture them, to treat them as family or create a home for them.

Bullshit. Dany does not "struggle as a mother". Dany is not “ill-prepared”. She is perfectly capable of nurturing her children, as plenty of examples show (you can see in this meta, as well as the examples mentioned above), and it’s not her fault that the person who wrote this essay didn’t have the slightest knowledge of Dany’s character and forgot everything that Dany did. And once again this idiot comes with that stupid argument of how "Dany is self centered and wants to protect her children only of the things she lacked, blah, blah…”. Stupid.

It takes the counsel of another woman for her to think of her own political marriage, but she never considers offering a Brown Ben Plumm or others lordships to start families of their own with a series of marriages to unify her divided people. Her first marriage was a sale of chattel to buy a home for her brother at the cost of her exile, and not the unification of two Houses. She’s willing chattel in her second to buy a paper peace, but the transactional and sacrificial nature are much the same. Sansa’s betrothal was for the good of the family including Lysa, Sweetrobin, and Edmure. It is the maternal Cat that makes this point, not Ned, and later again we see a maternal recommendation that Robb and Arya marry to help save Ned. These marriages are shared sacrifices to protect the family and all recommended by the matriarch. Dany’s past experience leads her to believe her children ought to be protected from such marriages to the scant extent she thinks about her responsibility to arrange marriages at all.

Another idiocy. First, Dany’s political marriage with Hizdahr is not “the counsel of a woman”, it’s a suggestion that literally everyone gives Dany, and something that was being discussed for some time. The essay seems to imply that the marriage being the suggestion of a woman shows how female influences are important, and that if you have no female influences you couldn’t possibly understand the importance of political marriage. Which is in itself a ridiculous notion (you don’t need to have female influences to understand political marriage), but also, we don’t know if the initial suggestion came from the Green Grace, for the essay to imply that. Second, Dany arranging marriages or not doesn’t actually mean anything for her. Dany doesn’t have that power over the slaver families to be able to arrange marriages for them. Dany grew up poor and gained her power by herself, meaning that none of the people in her entourage actually has political power to be of use for political marriage (as already explained, marrying Irri or Jhiqui wouldn’t bring Dany any political benefits). About giving lordships, who gives lordships to sellswords??? Catelyn (the one the essay praises) certainly wouldn’t do that. Most rulers wouldn’t, and in the rare case it happens, it’s usually in special circumstances. Sellswords are called sellswords because they are paid, you know? Basically, Dany’s political situation and narrative are so different from the political situation and narrative in Westeros that it doesn’t make sense to talk about these things.

Finally, this essay is supposed to talk about how the “maternal influence” that Sansa had made her more appropriate as a maternal figure than Dany, but Sansa also hasn’t arranged any marriage. So with what basis does this Sansa stan claim that Sansa is better than Dany??? Saying that Catelyn arranged marriages doesn’t mean Sansa learned this “lesson” and that Catelyn’s influence will necessarily result in Sansa arranging the political marriages that Dany supposedly “failed” to arrange.

Dany’s rebirthed an extinct species to become the mother of dragons and is an icon of motherhood for the oppressed of a continent, but struggles to mother herself and those most dear to her. By the end of Dance with Dragons, we see her embracing Fire and Blood over planting trees, which is not surprising considering Viserys and Khal Drogo are her two primary role models in life. Her experiences in Meereen do make her more of a veteran which somewhat diminishes the vital nature of role models, and it seems likely that she’ll have additional advisors when she heads to Westeros. Yet in her immediate future she still seems to lack a “crone” figure, which may be cause for concern. She’ll need to embrace that Fire and Blood when she lands in Westeros, but she’ll still need to make alliances which do require an element of planting trees or at least seeds. Westeros needs a maternal figure like a Cat who is willing to let old grudges and a Jaime go if the realm is ever going to have peace.

This is such a simplistic understanding of what fire and blood means for Dany’s arc. It does seem like this idiot just read the Meereenese Blot and thinks that because of this they know everything about Dany. This shows no understanding of how the peace was unjust (X, X), how Dany is indeed capable of planting trees (X, X), and in fact, we literally see her planting trees in ADWD (X, X). And it definitely shows no understand Dany’s characterization, because Dany is capable of being diplomatic and “letting go of old grudges”, she is not a violent person at all and always strives for conciliation. Also, I’m rolling my eyes at this person saying that JAIME would be better for the future of Westeros than Dany, and that JAIME is someone who "lets go of old grudges" (he totally didn't kill Jory and a bunch of innocent people just for revenge lmao, oh, and he totally didn't try to kill Bran and Arya).

As Brashcandy’s essay points out, Sansa seems to be the one most likely to fill that peacemaker role. We see her leadership when Cersei leaves during the Blackwater, and a willingness to pray for Tyrion despite her misery in the marriage. Pragmatically, she’s one of the few characters with a personal relationship with virtually every faction and probably the only one with a positive personal relationship to each faction. Her personality is a significant factor, but without the skill sets of her courtesy armor and Cat as a role model she couldn’t have survived to this point with so many potential allies among the North’s enemies. We’ve seen Sansa’s tendency to gauge marriage prospects since Game of Thrones, and continue to see it on her trip down from the Eyrie with Mya Stone and Lothor Brune. She seems inclined to find the best possible happiness within the restrictions of her station. We’ve seen how Robb’s first inclination was to consider assaulting the Twins rather than paying the toll; and he was also unwilling to trade Jaime for Sansa and Karstark preferred revenge for his sons�� deaths to getting his last son back. In both these cases, it was Cat who sought a peaceful alternative and Cat who preferred to let injustice stand so that her family might live. If Sansa parallels Cat’s path in this peacemaker regard, she may succeed in persuading other matriarchs and reach an accord that Catelyn could not with Cersei.

Uhhh, as if Dany had never felt compassion for her enemies (she has), or as if Dany didn’t know anything about courtesy (she does). As if Dany had never sought conciliation and peace and her first instinct was to always attack (as this essay implies when it mentions how Robb’s first instinct was to attack and how Catelyn stopped him). Quite the contrary, Dany’s first instinct IS conciliation (see this meta). Not to mention that this entire essay seems to imply that because Dany isn’t hyper feminine and doesn’t constantly think about marriage, that she is somehow incapable of conciliation, incapable of ever making a political marriage or having what’s necessary to rule in peacetime. Which is ridiculous. Sansa is constantly thinking about marriage because she is a romantic person and very traditionally feminine. Dany literally has other things to worry about instead of dreaming about marriages and matchmaking. Just because her personality isn’t like Sansa’s personality, that doesn’t mean she is incapable of understanding political marriages or incapable of being a political agent for peace. But this essay suggests that only traditionally feminine women can be peacemakers (which is a common sexist bullshit amongst Sansa stans). This is ridiculous, and no one would say the same thing about a man. Jaehaerys I wasn’t constantly arranging marriages, that was mostly Alysanne’s role, and yet, I don’t see people saying that he was incapable of peacemaking or conciliation. He was the conciliator, for fuck’s sake. Dany is a ruling queen, not a consort. She has the same role as Jaehaerys, so why is she being held to different ridiculous standards about traditional femininity?

In conclusion, this essay is ridiculous. The lack of “maternal figures” or “female influences” didn’t make Dany incapable of understanding social hierarchy, having courtesy, social skills, it didn’t make her less maternal, it didn’t make her incapable of being a peacemaker or of planting trees. Not having maternal role models doesn’t make Dany unfit to rule or to be a mother. Actually, Dany is quite politically capable and has all of the necessary skills that this essay claims she doesn’t have. Also in conclusion, this essay is a very good example of how Sansa stans didn't start hating and demeaning Dany only with the show or with the Jonsa vs Jonerys war. This entire essay is all about how Dany is a supposedly horrible politician and how Sansa is supposedly better than her, without the slightest understanding of Dany’s narrative, Dany’s political situation and Dany’s characterization. And Sansa stans wonder why we are pissed off at them.

#fandom wank #asoiaf meta #daenerys targaryen #sansa stark #my meta

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templedragon · 4 years ago

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Supergirl 6x04 Lost Souls

We love to see it: Seven interviews. Azie Tesfai talking about Kelly Olsen. A montage of the poster cast talking about Kara being in the Phantom Zone. Four interviews with Katie McGrath. Nicole Maines on a video chat.

Things I hadn't missed: The intro montage (and we're still on the rainbow logo rather than bisexual lighting), CatCo and the characters of Andrea and William tied to it. It says a lot if characters can be removed without mention and no-one feels their absence. The show has outgrown CatCo as it has the DEO. There wasn't even a mention of Nia's CatCo retreat to tie in the company upon her return to this episode, seemingly in exchange for Kelly. A lot of this episode is civilians feeling inadequate in a superhero setting, and Kelly comes under that with her scraped hands. It's another instance of Kelly having reduced screentime and agency, while Lena is openly crying two episodes in a row about her guilt about Kara being in the Phantom Zone. It would be nice to have a comparison of a sister-in-law civilian vs the romantic framing of Lena (and their stealing of former workplace tech to save the day). I want civilian bonding.

I want civilian in general, because this season has been all Tower and no Kara, the titular character. Part of the show's charm was characters being pulled away from mundane life with the weirdest of excuses to go save the day. Supposedly the world falls to pieces if Supergirl is absent, but we're not hearing about it. No pedestrian comment from saved people, passers by, or the news about a new vigilante or the absence of Supergirl. Kara's having an extended 'absence' from work and it's not being relayed by Nia that there's been no satellite phone calls to report in her Cat Grant interview (is there even a fake plane ticket? I want tourist souvenirs). The insular Tower has call buttons for other superheroes and The Flash would have been ideal - fastest man alive to run past the baby phantoms to pierce the soul storage egg (happy Easter). If the real world was considered, then heat map technology exists. You want to find sub zero temperatures in warm weather, cross off the known freezer units for businesses and investigate the remaining ones. Boom. Civilian logic saves the day. Kara's going to get back and realise the world coped fine without her, because no-one noticed her absence and it only took her friends (family) to save it with no external help and no consequence. The SuperFriends didn't just save the day, they did so unscathed (I'm sure Kelly's hands will heal).

We won't mention exchanging death by rape for killing newborns. It's a pandemic, but AIDS rather than COVID 19. Specifically coded with a gay man and a black African woman being the first characters to succumb to fungal nails, wasting your body and revealing you to be sub-human (queer and black). If the pandemic was Covid coded then it would be disabled people dying. The show decided Phantoms would get the biped treatment but no empathy beyond that. Once you're the villain group, what happens to you doesn't matter (Daxamites having no home, Phantoms not being allowed to reproduce). There's an ethical discussion being ignored. There's also Lena and Alex's alcoholism being ignored, while Brainy is being talked through his depression binge eating.

Everyone keeps saying the Phantom Zone is the worst. It looks like Kara fell into a cave during a camping trip and is getting a bit gaunt in the face from lack of food (kudos to the make up department for doing more work than the script). The 100th AU was a better instance of Kara living nightmare scenarios. Meanwhile, Alex has had a montage of missing Kara, M'Gann has physic nightmares, and Nia repeatedly dreams Midvale, all during Phantom attacks. So why isn't Kara getting the same montage and repetition, when she's stuck in the Phantom Zone? Her father (assuming he's real, gotta live for that cis het reunion) is supposedly what Kara could turn into. The guy has clinincal depression, untreatable even with an environmental change according to Nyxly. If he had depression before coming to the Phantom Zone, it may explain the pyjama chic as you are stuck in whatever outfit you were sent to the PZ wearing (he could have been working from home to yeet Argo). I think knowing your planet is dying from environmental exploitation and beaurocracy is stopping you from healing it, that's a contributing factor to depression.

One thing I do love about 5th dimensional Imps is their desire to kill men that bring Kara down. I assume they are repeating in miniature Lena's season 5 arc, this time punishing people who should have supported her, but not to the point of killing. So we're going to have fun before she sees the error of her ways, probably teaming up with Lex in 6B. Meanwhile, Lena is getting actual character development. As Brainy has had the killer lines this season, it's "about time" Lena was a fully accepted SuperFriend. It should have happened in season 3 (imagine how much failed tech plot we'd skip if Lena wasn't outsourced), rather than having her be stuck in a loop of family abuse for four seasons. The showrunners make characters fit plots and reset them to zero for the next plot, rather than characters organically growing. Plus, the plots are so weak that they need a shock to sustain them through the second half of the season. Everything that happens with J'onn is of little consequence as they all go back to Mars (though it is lovely that M'Gann is still here). Nia had a great introductory season and then sidelined. Kelly doesn't have agency and dispenses advice like a fortune cookie. James became the CEO of a company and instead of exploring the workload that Cat Grant endured, he added vigilante to his abilities. James had a damaged eye in season 4 which would have impacted his photography, but they removed the disability rather than explore consequences for being a superhero without abilities. Alex suffers the worst for serving the plot, changing on an episodic basis, and so much for her having a quieter desk job to have children. Brainy parellels Lena for working with Lex and his romance (coding at this point after pinky promises?) with Nia, so somehow it's Lena that's driving the narrative. It's the final season so whatever progress characters make should stick. Should, but having no faith as the reset, sidestep, and contradictory buttons have been hit too many times.

The show is called Supergirl, so with any good showrunners, the audience should see a throughline of organic development of the titular character, and six seasons in we should be able to predict the natural conclusion of her arc. Any guesses what Kara's through line is? Answers on a postcard from the Phantom Zone. Delays expected due to pandemic precautions aka smashing mirrors. I can't believe the showrunners had the opportunity to delay filming so Benoist could have maternity leave. Instead we have the titular character going nowhere in her final season for seven episodes. The show could be called Aliens Of National City, as we're seeing the main cast develop in Kara's absence. The show has always been good at characters talking about each other rather than to each other. We see the progress when Nia and Brainy talk to each other, and when J'onn and M'gann talk to each other, and Kelly and Alex talk to each other. But who has Lena got to talk to? At this point I'm wondering if Lena will talk to everyone in succession as a 'welcome to the family', or if the cursory Nia tour and J'onn acknowledgement is it, with the Brainy BrOTP and now Alex dispensing sisterly advice on the Balcony of Feels. "Forgive youself already and move on," seems like huge progress from a woman that was ready to drop a bomb on her.

Lena (I feel like Kara, mentioning her all the time) has added more romantic parallels. On a balcony, Clark told Kara that he'd choose Lois over world, and on a balcony Lena chooses Kara over the world. Lena's priority has always been Kara/Supergirl (she hasn't made saving suits for anyone else). She killed her ex boyfriend Jack, killed her brother, and was prepared to boost the Phantom population to save Kara (people only care if it's humans or human passings dying). "There's no line I wouldn't cross to keep you safe," is what she told her romantic partner James in season 3. Kara's done the same for Lena over the years, notably not dropping her from a plane at the risk of poisoning the water supply, letting Metallo Lena kill her rather than fight her, and wouldn't stop her using Myriad for Non Nocere. Another romantic parallel is the handing over of soul fragments. J'onn brought M'Gann back using a piece of her soul that she'd bonded to him romantically, and Lena was given Kara's digital soul to bring her back.

The digital soul recording being lost forever is an easily unravelled plot point. They could just use a phone to record the recording. Similarly, having to time travel to 2009 Midvale is unnecessary. Alex only remembers Kara solar flaring twice, the window in which to get her DNA to track her. I remember the most recent flare being 5x01, where Kara says she'll solar flare to close the black hole at the event horizon. And I imagine she blew her powers in the Reign fight, which is why she was dropped off the roof. Plus, as much as I like the crystal recording to be gone so the bangs can be forgotten, Kara had to flare to cut her fringe. And in the civilian world, DNA is strong in families. I’m surprised the genetic blueprint for the House of El isn’t in the Fortress. Kara's mother is still alive on Argo, and Clark as a first cousin will share DNA. Heck, even if they pulled Zor-El out by mistake because of the familial match would make sense here to keep Kara gone longer. I can't believe the Earth Prime DEO didn't have a vial of Supergirl's blood on hand in case they needed to get into the Fortress, the way Lillian did in season 2. I should be rewarded for paying attention, not disappointed.

- Why does Zor-El speak Earth languages in the Phantom Zone? I had assumed until 'daughter' that they were speaking Kryptonese but for the sake of the audience it was presented as English. - I do love the data crystal recording though. Talking about found family is one thing, but phrasing it as 'not about names' when people have only ever had issue with the name Luthor. - Nia misses her mom. Brainy offers himself as a replacement. Kara misses the parents she remembered. Taking bets that Lena offers herself as a replacement. - Show not even hiding the rip off ideas from other shows. Ghostbusters! - Apparently Lena doesn't sleep when Kara's in danger. - I'm not bothered that the Fortress of Solitude is 'home' in the mirror. I assume it's programmed to lock onto the nearest Krypton soil sample. -Like the hand holding focus

#supergirl #supergirl season 6 #episode review #6x04 Lost Souls #Supercorp #Phantom Zone #Lena Luthor #Kara Zor-El #Alex Danvers #Nia Nal #Brainy #Dreamer #Brainia #nyxlygsptlnz #M'gann M'orzz #J'onn J'onzz

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chidoroki · 4 years ago

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In Defense of TPN S2

Okay, so before y’all start throwing your salt shakers at me, let me explain. Yes, I’m just as upset and annoyed with how the second season decided to cut out so much content that us manga readers were finally hoping to see: no Yuugo, Goldy Pond arc or GP Resistance, Lucas or Glory Bell escapees, Adam, poachers, or Cuvitidala Search. Since this season also (sort of) reached the 2047 time skip, we were also denied of the Paradise Hideout, Jin, Hayato, Ayshe, the Seven Walls & Imperial Capital Battle arcs and Alex due to the anime’s so-called “original story” idea. While some manga events still took place (B06-32 getting blown up, the trio’s reunion, Norman’s time at Lambda, the cursed blood and the Grace Field raid), they were all significantly changed and barely held the same emotional impact, as we see very little to no build up to these moments. Several volumes were skipped completely and despite others being touched lightly, we unfortunately missed out on major character development for everyone, most notably for Emma, but also the lighter side of things such as chef Ray, medic Anna, Rossi learning morse code, Minerva!Norman, etc. There’s honestly so much of the main story to talk about and I totally understand why we’re all so ticked off, especially since that darn slideshow did absolutely nothing to calm our hearts at the end of ep11.

However.. I’m not gonna stand by and say this season was worthless. Highly disappointing given everything I just mentioned of course, I get it, so don’t curse me out just yet. People can trash talk it all they want and I’ll sympathize 110%, but I personally won’t do so. I love this series too much and that’s a huge reason as to why I didn’t drop this season. Usually whenever I start a new series, it’s because I become interested in a character or two. I find that no matter what happens in that series, whether the story intrigues me or not, I’ll continue it if only to see more of that character. If the story is good, it’s just another plus for me to stay addicted, so while this season totally missed their chance to adapt the wonderful source material of my favorite series, I stayed to watch Emma, Ray and all the other children I’ve grown to love over the past two years. Another reason why I stayed on this train wreck was because of how thought provoking it became as turned into yet another guessing game for me. After first watching the OP and even more after ep3 aired, I kept wondering what would they include or leave out. How would they handle this scene if this and that were already changed? How would they fix this problem if so and so isn’t here? It felt like I was watching season one blind all over again; seeing all these little clues sprinkled everywhere and yet not having any idea on how the story was going to continue or end got me excited. That’s why I came to love this story in the first place, so having the chance to feel that again alongside characters I love so dearly.. it was fun for me (until the slideshow punched me in the face). While many people will look at this season and declare the manga and first season are both superior (which they are, I agree), I’m still sitting over here like “oh look, more content!”

With all that nonsense out of the way, I thought I would go ahead and ramble about everything I believe the second season did well enough, because if I can take any heat off this adaptation then you’re damn right I’m gonna try. So if you’re wondering why on earth a manga reader even mildly enjoyed this season, it’s honestly just the little things such as a decently adapted or improved panel/scene, any new, interesting elements the anime may have included, or other personal favorite moments of mine.. which there were a lot of.

So no negativity past here kiddos, we’re gonna be as optimistic and lively as an orange antenna.

(mild manga spoiler warning, I guess? but I’m sure it’s nothing y’all haven’t heard us readers mention/complain about already)

- If you’ve read any of my reactions to this season, you would know how much love I have for “Identity.” Not only is the song still an absolute banger, but the opening sequence itself is fantastic. From the contrast between human vs demon, the cameos, the symbolism, the match cuts, the build up to the chorus.. just everything. I could talk about it endlessly and watch it several times over and still be impressed.

- Lani’s stupid fall.

- How clearly it shows Emma’s condition becoming progressively worse.

- Her scream.

- Ray’s apology, especially how soft his voice was when saying “sorry, Emma,” and the smile he gives after she tells him not to worry about it.

- And his entire promise to keep everyone in their family safe. Oh I was so happy to finally hear him say that.

- This exchange between Don and Gilda.

- Rossi and those darn faces he gives us. This boy is such a mood.

- How involved the younger kids were so they don’t feel like they were just.. there, which served as a reminder that everyone from Grace Field is smart, not just Emma and Ray.

- How pretty the demon forest looked at night when all those odd creatures started glowing (even those darn goowee).

- So happy with how this panel was adapted. That smirk of his is everything.

- The fact they remembered a small detail such as the bell.

- Knowing now that they cut so much out of the manga, I’m glad we at least got the hug.

- The ending sequence gave us a small look at Sonja and Mujika’s travels by themselves. “Magic” is also so very calming to listen to.

- How the children hug both Emma and Ray, as manga only had our girl receiving the hugs.

- Sonju & Mujika’s voice actors fit them perfectly.

- How impressed Ray was when he first tried their cooking. No wonder he was so eager to learn how to cook.

- Sonju’s story about the demon world from ch46-47 practically adapted word for word.

- While the manga also shows us how frighted the duo is upon learning they’re living in the worst case scenario, it’s seeing them and their hands physically shake that help push this scene a little bit more (not that you can tell this by a still frame but trust me).

- Their synchronized smirks and how well their excitement was not only animated but how genuine and real it sounds too. Emma’s laugh and the fact they made Ray of all people sound hopeful is fantastic.

- They kept the small Ray from this panel and made him better.

- I just love seeing him be optimistic.

- The entire scene when Emma & Ray are both scolded by the younger kids for acting so recklessly is perfect.

- They kept this tiny comment of Nat’s.

- Finally getting chef Ray and hearing how confident he is with his cooking skills already.

- Seeing other children like Dominic pick up archery and be surprisingly good at it.

- Anime pushed Emma’s quick learning ability further with archery by showing us how easily she could land a bullseye even after hitting something midair.

- How well they animated Emma’s first kill, from following the arrow as she pulls it back to when she releases it as it flies towards the bird’s eye.

- The fact that this scene and the next both used a water droplet to symbolize death just like we saw during season one with Conny and Norman’s shipments are so satisfying.

- The gupna scene and how well it emphasized Emma’s reaction to taking a life and how upset/bothered she was in doing so. The addition of a butterfly helps as well, as it’s another way this series tends to convey the idea of death. (you remember how many the OP had, right? tons.)

- I only just noticed that Ray is seen looking at a similar butterfly in the following scene as well.

- The anime doing this panel justice. Ep2 is probably the episode that follows the manga the closest and did real well in regards to that.

- Ray beating Sonju at chess.

- Chris knowing exactly which way to go without using the compass, which makes sense as he was seen mapping out the surrounding area in the previous episode.

- The kid’s adorable little freak out.-

- Giving us a better idea on how large the reference room of the B06-32 shelter truly is.

- Finally being able to hear our boy Nat play the piano. The fact that his first song is named “Nat King Cool” as a possible reference to Nat King Cole is also great.

- Rossi being an accurate representation of the manga readers while watching this episode.

- Chris being his cute self.

- Seeing Ray’s sleeping face after the manga denied us so many times by hiding it.

- It’s.. close enough. We love our chef.

- I love the idea that Nat plays a couple songs before everyone goes to sleep. That’s so precious.

- SHE!! With her hair down!

- Rossi teasing Don and the fact that just mentioning Gilda is enough to scare him.

- It remembered that Gilda has a tendency to count all the children.

- The level of confidence Isabella has in her kids.

- Ray being oh so close to shooting a human with an arrow.

- This hug.

- Chris leading the group through the underground tunnels, which he also does in manga but we learn earlier in this ep it’s due to all the time he’s played down here.

- Because of his extensive knowledge of the shelter’s layout, Chris also guides everyone to one of the secret entrances to escape after he realizes the intruders are only stationed at the main two.

- Ray’s first demon kill is smooth as hell.

- Curse this scene for being so dark because that damn smile Isabella gives us is amazing.

- Since Andrew was cut, Chris and Dominic survive the aftermath of the shelter’s destruction without any injuries.

- Although we weren’t expecting to see their older 2047 selves this soon, they look good okay?

- The emotion in her voice throughout this entire scene (probably the closest we were ever gonna get to Emma doubting herself in ch109/114 too).

- Please just let me enjoy this moment when Ray noticed her negative thoughts and stepped in to help just as I expected.

- Vylk and that goofy smile of his.

- Watching the duo communicate without words during the chase through the demon town.

- Our girl clearing this jump effortlessly.

- Norman’s squishy cheeks.

- Ray’s slap could’ve been better, I know, but at this point I’m happy they still included it.

- The fact we can see Ray’s face during the reunion hug this time.

- And this hug.

- Remembering the small panel of Ray noticing Emma’s bluff.

- Finally hearing this conversation because both voice actors do a wonderful job with it and thankfully the dialogue is on par with the manga as well. Also that one moment when the shadow falls across Emma’s face like that.

- Gilda comforting Alicia after her nightmare.

- The scene is very dear to me so of course I appreciate every little panel we can get.

- How carefree Ray sounded with his “Nopes.”

- How I only realized just now that this panel was also adapted.

- Okay so who’s brilliant idea was it to have the sun rise towards the end of this conversation as Ray helps Emma regain her confidence? I just wanna personally thank them because it was a genius move and I’ll treasure it forever.

- They kept Barbara’s slip-up.

- Like our demon friends, I think the Lambda crew’s voices fit them rather well, although Zazie’s was totally unexpected, like dude you’re 5, why is your voice so low?

- Another “it could’ve been better but at least they included it” moment.

- Vincent’s smile here cracks me up and I don’t know why.

- Barbara’s anger.

- The short snippet we get of the ch126 conversation when the duo was visiting Chris.

- The table from Barbara’s outrage was never magically fixed like it was in manga, so we get this nice shot of Norman reflected in the broken surface.

- The trio’s conversation about the royals and cursed blood follows manga relatively well.

- Anime did this panel better, I’m sorry. Thank you for showing my girl getting angry.

- This frame of Ray.

- This comment of Norman’s that made me wanna slap him.

- How Norman’s face is constantly in the shadows during this scene, which is something his office at the Paradise hideout probably wouldn’t have given us, so hurray for this location instead.

- How he and Emma bicker over how many days their deal should last.

- When the camera shifts in and out of focus during Barbara’s seizure.

- How this scene hid Norman’s face until they revealed the demon the crew killed.

- It really is the small details that make me happy.

- This smile of Don’s.

- I’ll take all the hugs I can get.

- Emma and Gilda’s little headbutt.

- Why does my boy look so grown up and handsome here? Hello??

- I suppose I have to give credit for Peter’s voice actor too hm?

- Actually making Smee a bit more relevant.

- Since the fight against Legravalima was cut, this shot of Zazie is the closest we’re gonna get to seeing him without his paper bag, but it does improve on that one panel of him at the start of ch153.

- Seeing more of Norman’s time at Lambda as well as the aftermath of the explosion.

- While this scene pales in comparison to its manga counterpart, having the sun set behind him while Norman delivers his famous line was still a decent touch. It’s a nice contrast to the sunrise in ep6 and I enjoy it very much.

- Wild demons managing to somehow successful jump scare me not once, not twice, but three times in a single episode.

- Emma getting back up to protect her family despite her injury. (i mean, it’s no ch93 comeback but oh well)

- Ray getting in another decent shot at a demon.

- This face of his.

- Seeing just how quickly the drug causes the demons to degenerate and all the chaos it causes.

- Actually showing Norman attacking a demon rather than just saying he killed Yverk off panel in ch153.

- Hate me all you want but the anime did this panel better too.

- The ch153 discussion is more or less the same but the fact they added in Norman looking to Ray for help and just having him snap back instead was priceless.

- Sonju’s grin.

- The scene when Norman stops Zazie’s attack may only last like five seconds but it’s wonderfully animated and I find myself replaying it countless times.

- How to make the manga readers and anime-onlys panic with just one sentence:

- Isabella being clever as ever by leaking false info into the radio the escapees have to lure them back to Grace Field.

- I just think Emma looks so mature and pretty here?

- Had Norman actually apologize to the demons.. or was just about to anyways.

- Demon Emma is precious and must be protected.

- The adorable mixup between both Emmas.

- I haven’t a clue on where or how the kids managed to gather all the supplies to create several hot air balloons and explosives.. but they did, somehow, and I’m impressed because I’m assuming that all happened within a day.

- Ma’am, could you be any more smug?

- Simon! And he ends up surviving!

- Having Sonju fight alongside the Lambda crew.

- Which reminds me that this is possible since the Imperial Capital battle didn’t happen (yet, in this timeline), so the three of them never received their injuries from Legravalima either.

- The smoke bombs, only because I remembered how Sonju used them back in ep1 while rescuing Ray so it’s nice to see them being used again.

- Showing Norman actually use a bow and arrow this time. He also hits his target on the first try through a smokescreen.

- Ray having enough strength to knock out two demons with a simple metal pipe. In ch169 he’s seen holding down a grown man so yeah, I can believe this as well.

- Having Jemima, Yvette, Rossi & Mark disguises themselves as shipments in order to rally up the other Grace Field kids. Mark’s face and the noise he makes upon seeing Naila again is also precious.

- Peter actually falling for Vincent’s trap.

- Getting one young child to listen to you is hard enough, but Emma manages to get about 183 of them (yes I counted, give or take the four who also disguised themselves) to follow her orders in no time flat.

- Phil helping with the plan to lead all the children to the elevator.

- It made me nervous upon seeing it but they made the Day & Night ceiling real pretty.

- I knew the reunion was coming and still cried.

- Take all my hell yeahs.

- I could listen to her say this on repeat and be overjoyed every single time.

- She’s beauty, she’s grace, she’ll point at gun in your face.

- Getting to witness someone shoot at Peter since no one did so in the manga? Wonderful. Having that person be Isabella who literally lands a perfect shot not even a full second after he pulls out that disc? Perfection.

- Mujika and Vylk bringing in hundreds of civilian demons as reinforcements.

- James!

- Those real quick shots of the ancestors because I had given up on thinking we would’ve seen them at all since the Seven Walls arc was skipped.

- I’m actually surprised they kept his death in and it’s as harsh as the manga.

- Ray confronting Isabella with the addition of this line.

- This panel being animated along with Emma’s thoughts from ch177 towards Isabella even though that chapter’s major event didn’t happen.

- I certainly can not forget about this hug.

- At least anime!Emma told the boys her plan before reaching the door, or didn’t keep it a total secret? If not then I’ll praise the boys for accepting her crazy idea regardless.

- Boy, do you know how much I love you and your smirks?

- SHE. STAYS. ALIVE!!!

- Vincent and Norman’s little fist bump.

- Different but close enough. Still cute though.

- The amount of emotions this one shot makes me feel is limitless. Catch me crying tears of joy over it for the rest of my life.

- Having Phil not only getting the chance to see a train but to ride one as well.

- This pretty shot of Gilda.

- As well as this beautiful one with Emma and Mujika.

- They gave us older Phil. Not sure how much older but he’s still adorable.

- Lastly, the goddamn soundtrack! Of course we heard a bunch of the songs from season one, but the new ones such as “The Evil-Blooded Girl” and the Arabic version of “Isabella’s Lullaby” are absolutely fantastic. I still have to listen to full soundtrack but from what little bit I heard of such songs such as “Nat King Ballade,” “Crisis,” “Norman’s Lament,” and “The Temple Ruins,” I’m sure every track is an absolute joy. I’m so happy we had Obata back for this season.

And that’s the end of it, I guess? Of course it’s not a perfect list, as the majority of it was just personal favorites of mine but oh well. (this is just as long as ray’s birthday post too, oh lord)

I’m not gonna be one of those manga readers who continuously nag people to go read the original source material, because that’s annoying and I understand that some people just might not be up for it. They might watch a series, take it all in and then move on to the next one. Others might want to find out about every little detail and invest more time into the story. It’s totally fine to enjoy a series your own way and you shouldn’t feel pressured to continue something you’re only mildly interested in or feel bad that you love something others might despise. Just do whatever makes you happy. If you wanna check out the manga and see why us readers love it to pieces, then I promise it’s worth it, especially if you enjoyed the anime or wish to see more of any character.. or the entire story. If the manga ain’t for you, then I hope the anime did something for you. It definitely could have been better though, I can’t argue with that.

Whether you’re anime-only or manga reader, can we all still hope for a remake? This season had more flaws than any amount of praise I could give, but if years down the line we get the FMA: Brotherhood or Hellsing: Ultimate treatment where the next anime adaptation follows the manga perfectly, you know I’ll be all for it. I’m too deep in this TPN hole and I’ll probably never leave.

#the promised neverland #tpn anime #chidoroki used chatter #dont worry.. im still sad as hell about this adaptation.. this season just gave me a little excitement.. thats all #hey i re-watched this season so you wouldnt have to #..not like that says much considering ill probably go ahead and watch the dub too.. ah something is seriously wrong with me

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bigskydreaming · 4 years ago

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I’m still laughing my ass off over that one post that was going around a week ago with the fanon depictions of the Batboys vs more canon-accurate depictions, and the various ‘defenses’ people leaped to for why fanon is so much better, and its just like....yawn.

See, its not like fanon can’t be better, and isn’t better with some characters, its not that it can’t ADD nuance.

None of that’s the problem.

The problem is when people ONLY use it to DETRACT nuance and then are like ‘wow, whats the problem, whats the issue.’

Let’s take for instance the infamous matter of Dick’s alleged asshole behavior to Jason back when the latter was Robin, because of Dick’s issues with Bruce at the time.

Here’s the thing - even though that’s not what happened, it IS a fairly plausible examination of what could have happened, so its not like there’s no reasoning or justification whatsoever in exploring it. Its that....its not ever explored. Its just used to one-side a situation and render Dick unsympathetic while Jason’s propped up as having been victimized by him and Bruce is largely kept off-stage entirely.

But because quite frankly we just didn’t see much of their interactions back then, period, theoretically, adding more conflict in this vein still COULD have fleshed out that time period and added nuance every bit as much as my preferred additions of more positive interactions between them.

But people don’t add in these conflicts simply to add nuance, they add them in just to add BLAME.

The fanon isn’t the problem there. What you do with the fanon and why is the problem.

Its like my issues with the Jason-Kori-Roy friendship. It’d be one thing if Roy and Kori’s presence in Jason’s life was used to PUSH BACK against Jason’s belief that Dick hated him or didn’t mourn him or even just to provide more understanding or context about Dick’s position or side of things at the time to Jason when he gripes about him, so he’s a little more inclined to be understanding of what that was like for his brother thanks to the viewpoints of people whose POV he values and who in turn have always valued Dick’s POV and position in things.

But instead everything about the years of sympathy and understanding and insight Roy and Kori have always had for and in regards to Dick are flushed down the drain in order to have them join in with Jason when it comes to bashing and griping about that asshole Dick Grayson. Once again....perfect opportunity to add more nuance and complexity to a situation and a character dynamic, with it almost universally being pounced on to provide the reverse...to TAKE AWAY even MORE nuance and complexity from a situation by erasing anything and everything Roy and Kori might actually feel about what’s being said or believed of this other person they have a history of valuing a great deal.

Or like I was just saying earlier today about how its almost completely forgotten or erased that Dick was shot in the head upon Bruce’s return from the timestream, and was in an eminently sympathetic/hurt position for Bruce and Tim and others to come together around and put aside their own invididual resentments at least for the time being, in order to support Dick throughout an extremely dangerous and debilitating wound and recovery period. The issue with erasing, ignoring or invalidating Dick’s many traumas isn’t that ‘oh we just don’t like all the characters angsting 24/7, sometimes its too much, we like fanon happy-go-lucky Dick because he’s different,’ its like.....lol no, because if you’re still capable of and looking to rip into that depiction of Dick for....get this....not being able to get/grasp/empathize with the kinds of and degrees of trauma you still uphold for all the others, you’re really just looking to make him look unsympathetic in comparison, and shift focus away from their LACK of support and understanding for him when he really justifiably needs it in order to keep that focus instead on their contempt or bitterness for him no matter what else SHOULD have been taking place for him at the same time.

For example....going back to the Dick and Jason’s early years scenario.....I talk all the time about the Brother Blood situation, but guess what else that situation has? A time frame that’s pretty directly applicable to this Dick and Jason enmity scenario so many of you posit, given that the first two times the Church of Blood had Dick captive and were literally said to have released him back into the world secretly under their control....he was still Robin! And the third time, when he finally broke free thanks to the others (and Jason) rescuing him, it was only then that he was Nightwing. Meaning all of that is PERFECTLY positioned to be a fantastic and compelling additional underlying cause of Dick’s alleged early issuers/grievances with Jason.....the same mental turmoil that led to him lashing out against the other Titans like Donna in that infamous fight, could just as easily be said to have contributed or even been entirely behind any shitty interactions with Jason you want to posit happening back in the day.

And look at how tragically dysfunctional that makes all of that instead then....Jason resents Dick for something that ultimately, isn’t actually his fault since he was never lashing out while in sound mind but as an unknowing reaction to a mental battle against conditioning he didn’t even know was there at the time.....and this being a surprise revelation to Jason years later making him mentally reframe all their history, because Dick never said anything about this earlier because due to his guilt complex he felt it would have just been him making excuses or trying to let himself off the hook instead of a valid and understandable added layer of context.

That’s SO much more compelling and interesting than just a one-sided ‘one brother is an ass to the other for no real reason whatsoever, at leat not one we’re willing to acknowledge as being anymore relevant than a random footnote’.....but the problem isn’t that people go off fanon vs canon, the problem is REGARDLESS of whether people are using fanon or canon, people just don’t WANT Dick’s position in any of these times to be sympathetic or understandable, they want him JUDGED for it, condemned. They’re not TRYING to craft interesting, compelling dynamics or situations, they’re trying to make him the bad guy, always the bad guy, and the other person just unilaterally his unfortunate victim.

Just like with Tim and Red Robin, for all that even when people are like ‘nobody was really at fault/its not like Dick had another option with Damian, etc’ in PRACTICE there’s literally no distinguishing between this take and ones where Dick is just wholly irredeemable for his unforgivable choice, because despite even lip service paid to the idea that Dick had his reasons for what he did, there’s no actual PAY-OUT ever given to the idea that he’s anything less than terrible a brother to Tim for it...like, fanon is never the issue here, its just straight up canon....being willfully picked apart and reframed to make the issue entirely one-sided.

People pile on all the additional reasons Dick’s terrible for not taking into account Tim’s headspace at the time, like all the other people he’s lost in the last couple years comic book time, but again, at most there’s lip service about how Dick was going through a lot to, but its never added in to any degree that MATTERS or lessens the characters’ or readers’ vilification of him....while at the same time, there’s a willful disregard of and refusal to engage with all the other things and people Dick had lost in the same time frame, comic book time, like oh.....every single thing that happened in Bludhaven with Blockbuster, Tarantula and Deathstroke, given that the former was literally concurrent with Stephanie’s death and the latter right after Jack Drake’s death.

There’s never allowed any resentment from Dick towards Tim for not giving a single shit about what he was going through at the time, or for assuming he had no idea how to relate to the depth of Tim’s grief as though Dick hadn’t literally gotten a front row seat to his entire city being nuked by Chemo in that exact same time frame, with it still being touted that Dick just didn’t have any understanding or empathy for Tim’s many losses of the time. There’s never any frustration allowed from Dick about how much Tim resents him for making him give up Robin when at the same time, it was Tim and mostly Tim alone who pushed Dick to give up being Nightwing and assume the Batman mantle when even Bruce’s will had expressed to Dick that this was not what he wanted for him.

Again, never even time or focus given to Dick being shot in the head on Bruce’s return before using that to call in Bruce as reinforcements for Tim yelling ‘how could you do this to me,’ let alone any acknowledgment of the fact that Dr. Hurt, the very same villain that shot Dick in the head there, is the very same villain who had Dick locked up, straitjacketed, drugged up and on the verge of a lobotomy in Arkham for a week just BEFORE Bruce’s assumed death.....because lolol, it’d make people look pretty silly for taking Dick’s one comment about asking if Tim maybe needed to take a break and look after his mental health in Arkham to the extremes they did, if forced to acknowledge that at the time, Arkham was a TOTALLY different proposition due to how extensively Dick was invested in its rebuilding and overseeing its running thanks entirely TO that time, just before Arkham blew up and needed rebuilding from the ground up in Battle for the Cowl....because of the fact that Dick himself had just spent a week locked up and straitjacketed and drugged to the gills and on the verge of a lobotomy thanks to the oh so tender mercies of Dr. Hurt’s accomplices having the run of the place.

Because end of the day, the problem with this fandom and Dick Grayson is not fanon, and its not canon, its fandom. Its the willful DESIRE to not have any minimizing or mitigating context on display ever, so as to only keep the worst possible interpretation of Dick’s actions - either drawn from canon or fanon, whichever is most handy for a particular scenario - front and center.

So yeah, the idea that fanon adds nuance or context to Dick’s dynamics with any of his family is hilarious, not because it CAN’T, but because too many people are just entirely too unwilling and uninterested in allowing it to, just as they’re uninterested in any interpretation of actual canon that provides Dick with a smidgen of empathy or understanding for his positions or choices.

Like, that’s the POINT of most of your fanon for him. To strip AWAY nuance. So how are you going to be out here acting like you’re really contributing something to his character that canon doesn’t provide, when really, its all the same to you across the board: Dick Grayson is never justified let alone sympathetic ever?

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harrynightingales · 3 years ago

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Straight male writer: 6 years is nothing to an immortal! Their relationship needs ANGST to be interesting!! Me: am I supposed to believe that these two men, who have been together for almost a millennium, who KNOW that any death could be their last because their immortality isn’t guaranteed, wouldn’t speak for SIX YEARS??? (If the unspeakable happened during that time period the survivor would never forgive himself!)

i'm with you anon!!! i actually have a lot of rambly thoughts on this and now feel enabled to share them because hey, you started it! under the cut because this is long as hell

edit: just as a heads up i read this as anon referring to the writer of the ttt3 moon landing story who to be fair i don't know if he is straight, or just as a general ~straight man writer~ perspective

first of all hard agree that the idea of angst = complex and interesting is really frustrating. i say that as someone who definitely can and does enjoy angsty miscommunication based fic but it definitely strikes me as something a) quite rare for them and b) not at all required for an interesting story. there are so many potential experiences for the anthology writers to explore that focusing on conflict all the time seems. uncreative.

anyways the 6 years comment has been fully disregarded by me. in general i have the approach of picking the canon/word of god comments that i like and ignoring the rest. specifically, it strikes me as the type of thought a writer would have when first writing about immortals, the whole idea that years pass like its nothing because they live so long. i imagine the writer was guilty of the same thing that grucka himself admitted to, of picking something that sounded cool because it was ~possible with immortal characters (in grucka's case, randomly picking 6000 as an age for andy) without actually thinking through the implications and whether it makes sense.

because as i mentioned in my reply (which i assume you saw?), the human experience of fighting with someone you love and not speaking to them fucking sucks. it feels good and satisfying for all of what? a day? and beyond that you just miss that person, especially when they are so intertwined with your every day life the way joe and nicky are. and exactly like you said, why on earth would they willingly put themselves through that when we canonically know how much they value and love each other?? because the way i see it you can fully disagree with someone and be angry with them but still make it clear that you love them by communicating. and the silent treatment is truly just the absence of any sort of communication and i can't imagine a scenario where an argument would be so very important to justify that level of anger to avoid any communication for more than a few days.

to be clear the actual events of the comic are not the main concern for me. i do think the philosophical differences between joe and nicky that are highlighted are interesting and would naturally bring some tension. i even can kind of understand the choice to go silent on each other - joe really eloquently explains his point to andy, but maybe he hadn't quite figured out his own thought process enough to explain it at the time of the original argument with nicky. and the hill i will die on re: joe/nicky's relationship is that it is built on respect, i imagine they would be emotionally mature enough to not lash out in anger and potentially say something hurtful that they can't take back. so choosing to remove themselves from the situation and not speak so as to not make things worse makes sense, as an initial reaction. where it loses me personally is that you can see that both ~activities if you can call them that are really important to joe and nicky. for joe, seeing the moon landing and appreciating beauty and progress in the world, and for nicky, serving justice to more people that caused innocent people harm (the "more" very consciously there because joe obviously also believes in their work and stopping injustice, but in this case they have different priorities past a certain baseline). and going back to my idea as respect as foundational for them, part of that in a relationship is recognizing that what is important and of value to your partner becomes important to you, even if you don't fully understand it. the way that joe so earnestly talked about wanting to experience the beauty of the moon landing and wanting to experience it with nicky makes me believe that nicky would reconsider his priorities, especially taking into account the "once in a lifetime" nature of watching the first the moon landing vs simply the convenience of having the hitlist targets all at home. and similarly, even if joe isn't fully convinced that everyone on nicky's hitlist needs to get taken out, he would recognize how and why that is important to nicky and not allow it to be something that comes between them, because like i said earlier fighting for justice is something they have in common. so in my mind the most in-character ideal response would be "argument of what to do next after taking out the serial killer -> both explain their positions and why that is their priority -> COMPROMISE".

but ANYWAYS that huge ramble aside, the main plot "fight" of their's is not such a big deal to me, especially since its clear that joe knows nicky will call and its implied that he does shortly after the event of the comics. if anything, as others have said, it just seems FAR better suited for early days in their relationship rather than multiple centuries into it when they would have PLENTY of opportunity to iron out their moral approaches to killing plus gone through Communication In Relationships 101.

it really is just the 6 years comment that grinds my gears. again, a 6 year silent treatment argument could maybeee make sense in like, the first century of their relationship, as they were figuring stuff out and also before they discovered the fact that they can lose their immortality. like you said anon, once they have that information, i truly cannot believe they would willingly waste that much time over something that can't have been all that consequential. and i really don’t understand the argument that “because they’re immortal time doesn’t mean the same thing to them and 6 years is nothing!!” because imo that’s just.. not how the brain works. like they are fully human and process emotions as humans, and the human way is that conflict/anger/stress feel BAD, especially when you’re in the middle of it. your emotions are heightened which would put you on edge and feeling irritable and the brain is absolutely NOT meant to be in that state for an extended period of time. and again, why would they put themselves through that when they could just?? do the grown up thing and have a conversation. what would be the motivation to experience those shitty feelings for 6 years when an alternative exists?? not to mention greg's comment that the two of them had never willingly spent time apart, and even if they were still (indirectly) interacting while not speaking, the emotional distance it would require to be physically next to someone and disregard them like that for MULTIPLE YEARS runs really contrary to the way the relationship is presented.

that being said i do find this post super funny and i definitely can imagine them going through the motions of "negative" relationship experiences (can you say jealousy and lorenzo???) entirely for the sexual payoff. but again, to take it kinda seriously, even that in my mind would be based on a foundation of understanding that they do love each other and they're not really REALLY mad at each other, just

p.s. i wrote almost this whole thing in a daze about 24 hours ago and then i saw this post which makes a lot of the same points as me so hopefully this isn’t repetitive and i’m sorry op i promise i wasn’t stealing your ideas. nice to be on the same page as others though!

#not tagging bc i don't want this in the tags #i'll do it later i promise

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beautifulterriblequeen · 5 years ago

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I know that sound

Remember when the issue of Runaan and Rayla vs a dragon was super briefly brought up and immediately abandoned with zero context in a TDP interview? Me either, but that totally happened. (thanks to @ladyandherbooks for a great conversation on the topic!)

Is it going to be in the future or has it already happened? I think it’s already happened because of this comment Rayla makes in S2E7 when Pyrrah roars in the distance.

My favorite angsty headcanon as to exactly when Rayla and Runaan faced off with a dragon is that it was when a raging, mourning Zubeia came looking for Runaan--and for Rayla--after her egg vanished and her mate was killed.

TDP has a beautiful habit of adding backstory behind dramatic events that changes the perspective of those events. We started watching this show knowing that the humans slayed Thunder. Then we learned it was in vengeance for Sarai’s death. Then we learned that she died trying to save her people from a famine. Those kinds of layers.

So I’m wondering if this moonfam vs dragon is just such an event, which will change our perspective on Rayla and Runaan’s relationship, and on why she ended up on his mission in the first place.

I don’t know whether a Storm archdragon has enough magical power to see through the Silvergrove’s enchantments, but I want the answer to be no. Because then, see, Zubeia’s got to fly around roaring and raging and shouting above the village and freaking out all the Moonshadow elves. Like, “holy crap the Dragon Queen has lost her mind, uhhh guys what to we do??” Because see, they don’t know yet. They don’t know about Harrow and Viren and Avizandum and the egg. This moment, this exchange, this is how they learn what happened.

So the elves stare skyward as Zubeia roars and zaps her way over the forest, maybe even crying Runaan’s name. Or worse, Rayla’s. There’s no way he’d let Rayla approach an enraged dragon. But he’s the leader of the assassins. This is his village, and Rayla is the daughter of his heart. Defending literally everyone who’s currently in danger is exactly Runaan’s jam. So he leaves the village and draws Zubeia’s attention a ways away, where she can’t hurt anyone, hoping to let her say her piece in um, peace.

I don’t think it went well, for several reasons. And the first of those reasons is that Rayla sneaked out after him.

The first things Zubeia would want Runaan to know are that his friends were cowards and that her egg and mate are dead. If Rayla overheard the bit about her parents, I can see her throwing caution to the wind and darting right out to say Zubeia’s totally wrong. Runaan would be intensely concerned for her safety, but he’s got to keep a hold on the situation despite his own shock and horror. A mother who’s just lost her baby could do anything she wanted, especially if she’s got teeth that are six feet long and extremely pointy. He’s just lost his two best friends, but he can’t do anything that puts Rayla’s life in more danger than it’s already in.

And maybe it is in danger. Zubeia blames all of her Dragonguard for fleeing. But Moonshadows don’t run. Maybe she already hunted down the others, and here she is, unable to find Lain and Tiadrin anywhere, desperate for revenge, and turning to their daughter. Zubeia did lose a child. How fitting, she might decide, that her traitorous guards lose theirs in return.

Runaan’s definitely not having that, though. He’d say or do just about anything to protect Rayla. And conveniently, it’s his actual job to hunt down horrible people. Maybe he offered his services to Zubeia to keep her from killing Rayla. Tried his best to direct the distraught dragon from wild revenge to a balanced justice. Maybe Runaan agreed to take Ezran’s life so he wouldn’t have to lose Rayla’s.

Rayla would be sickened, angry, horrified, and maybe just a little lost in all these horrible details, but once she heard Runaan talking about an assassination mission, she’d pick up immediately that she could find redemption by going with him. Not just in Zubeia’s eyes, but in everyone else’s. And it would placate the Dragon Queen to see Rayla acting furious and intent on fixing her parents’ mistake.

Maybe Runaan never intended for Rayla to grow up to be an assassin at all, despite her admiration for him and his honorable position in the Silvergrove. But in such a moment, with Rayla glaring up at him and Zubeia staring down at him, he felt the strings of fate pull so tightly that he had no choice but to say yes. His job is to lead and train assassins. If anyone can get a determined young Moonshadow elf ready for an assassination mission in a short period of time, it’s Runaan.

Is this why the mission took so long to start after the event that triggered it? Avizandum died at Winter’s Turn, which is like New Year’s, but Runaan’s mission set out in May. He and Rayla might’ve spent those intervening months training like crazy. But eventually, Runaan had to make the call--Zubeia’s been waiting on him, and he’s got to decide at some point that Rayla’s ready enough.

Runaan may have negotiated with Zubeia to take Rayla with him, but only when he deemed her ready. Zubeia might not have cared much whether Rayla lived or died on the mission. But better to give Rayla a fighting chance, and a chance to redeem her family’s honor, than to refuse and risk Zubeia lashing out at her right there and then.

It’s an impossible situation, but Runaan seems to have a knack for getting into those and making hard calls. He absolutely won’t let Rayla die today, but his other options are to kill an innocent prince and to endanger his daughter while doing it. And he goes with that. He says he’ll do it, and then, because of his honor, he actually plans to do exactly that.

Harrow would be much easier to agree to take. Harrow is the one who actually killed Avizandum. But why Ezran? That’s a demand made out of rage and grief. If Rayla’s life hadn’t been under threat at the time of Zubeia’s and Runaan’s negotiation, would Runaan have agreed to take Ezran’s life?

Maybe he would. It is a balanced solution, in a very dark and terrible way. But for a guy with his own child, it feels like a really, really dark move to agree to. Maybe he didn’t make it willingly.

If Runaan felt pressured into taking Rayla on his mission to spare her life, that adds new dimension to his theme of protecting her. He basically sacrificed himself and his whole team to save her when the mission went pear-shaped. What a ride it would be if her life was actually in danger much earlier than that.

I know this doesn’t have much connection with canon. Zubeia seemed oddly thrilled with all the humans and elves around her when she woke up. But maybe we’re missing something in her character arc as well. She got Runaan to accept the mission to take Harrow and Ezran. And then she had to wait. And wait. And her rage died out, leaving her with only her sorrow. Her broken heart was all she had left, and it began to kill her. Ibis said that she’d slipped into a coma ten days earlier, which was around the time that S3 started. That was most likely after she received Runaan’s shadowhawk, telling her that Harrow was dead, but not Ezran.

Did she think Runaan had gone back on his word? Did she tell anyone at all what his message said? That he’d failed to do what he promised?

Rrgh, was Runaan worried when he shot that shadowhawk off that Zubeia might still try to exact revenge on Rayla because he hadn’t taken Ezran? Maybe he didn’t want Rayla taking the egg back to Xadia because she’d be running directly to the dragon that threatened her, and Runaan was trying to minimize the risk to her life, again, by taking it himself.

Why did he demand the egg like he did? Is he really just that dramatic? Or was he trying to keep Rayla and Zubeia apart because Rayla had to hear what a raging dragon sounds like once, and he never wanted her to hear that sound again?

The irony will be enormous if Runaan was trying to protect Rayla from a threat that nearly died from grief between the time he left on his mission and the time Rayla reached Xadia without him. Because if his mission had gone off without a hitch, he and Rayla would’ve been home and dry before Zubeia fell into her coma. Rayla might be safe in that scenario, but Zym would be lost, and Ezran would be dead.

why are there never any clear answers i love this show

#runaan #rayla #zubeia #tdp speculation #tdp headcanons #tdp

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somnilogical · 5 years ago

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im having a convo and the convo is babies

Carrie Zelda-Michelle Davis:

is it OK to have babies if you do embryo selection (https://www.gwern.net/Embryo-selection) and raise them to be an FAI researcher (https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/07/31/book-review-raise-a-genius/)??

somni:

like if someone actually had a plan for FAI that involved this, okay. but rn time is too short imo. when i first heard people were having babies i was confused and assumed they were going to harvest the DNA of the best FAI researchers, someone would decide to grow a baby inside them, someone who discounted their ability otherwise to save the world except via this or thought this was a sacrifice worth making for the world would decide to raise this human.

the human can access information about the state of the world and make their own choices. wont necessarily become an FAI researcher.

used to think that intelligence was the main bottleneck on FAI research no longer think this. you could talk with terry tao for hours about the dangers of the wrong singleton coming to power but unless you have made some advances i have not, i wouldnt expect to be able to align him with FAI research. he would continue to put as much resistance to his death and the death of everyone as a pig in human clothing. he would continue to raise his babies and live in a house with someone he married and write about applying ergotic theory to the analysis of the distribution of primes and understanding weather patterns.

similarly, i dont think culture is a sufficient patch for this. think its a neurotype-level problem where a bunch of >160 iq humans hear about the dangers of UFAI and then continue to zoom quickly and spiral in to being ultra efficient at living domestic lives and maybe having a company or something but not one that much affects p(FAI). think this would still happen if they heard about it from a young age, they would follow a similar trajectory but with FAI themed wallpaper. wouldnt be able to do simple utilitarian calculations like yudkowsky, salamon, vassar, tomasik about whether to have a baby and then execute on them.

would look more like: http://www.givinggladly.com/2013/06/cheerfully.html

FAI research is not an ordinary profession like, say, being a grandmaster at chess or a world-class mathematician; it requires people who have passed through far more gates than "intelligence". i didnt notice this until coming to the rationalist community and finding a high density of intelligent humans who were none-the-less chronically making the wrong choices such that they werent much of an impediment against the destruction of all life.

so right now it seems more efficient to select among existing people for intelligence + other requirements rather than work out what all the genes for this are and how to speedrun development. what this enables is parallel processing on the problem which is also allowed by letting people be aware of their relative psychological advantage, other people with this advantage, and the state of the world so they can correlate computations in parallel instead of doing things serially after learning of some advance.

https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/16/100-prisoners-names-in-boxes

not opposed to creation of many humans given can select on right traits. but given you have these traits, better use of your time to work directly on the thing than spend massive amounts of time and life reorientation on raising copies of you for ~14 years. if rapid cloning tech became available, would exploit that. would even have an idea of whether the clone is fine being part of this because they have very similar brain to someone who can think through whether they would be fine with it.

if people actually believed this and thought yudkowsky vitally important for the survival of the world, why didnt people coordinate for a bunch of people who thought it was a good tradeoff to have yudkowsky's baby 20 years ago and then we would have maybe 50 20-year-old humans with maybe 1/2 yudkowsky's neurotype + mutations now? this actually confuses me. maybe they thought the timelines too short back then. maybe they refrained for "optics".

molebdenita:

20 years ago Yudkowsky was 1) unconcerned about the alignment problem and 2) planning to create a super-intelligent AI by 2010, as far as I know.

[A/N so then change 2000 to 2005 and 20-year-old to 15-year-old]

...

somni:

<<in general i think it's -EV to even spend too much time thinking about TDT

because it opens you up to acausal blackmail type stuff>>

Just Say No to acausal blackmail and have your brain back for thinking. dont let blackmailers steal your brain.

<<Saying that having a child is somehow wrong is insanity. It's a personal decision and it is perfectly okay to want kids>>

people keep reframing what i say in the language of obligation. "altruists cant have kids?" "is it OK to have babies if". there is no obligation, there is strategy and what affects p(fai). having kids and reorienting your life around them is 1 evidence about your algorithms 2 your death as an optimizing agent for p(fai) except maybe some contrived plot involving babies, but afaict there is no plot. just the reasons humans usually have babies.

not having kids is not some sort of mitzvah? i care about miri/cfar's complicity in the baby-industrial complex and rerouting efforts to save the world into powering some kind of disneyland for making babies, to sustain this. because that ruins stuff, like i started out thinking that bay area rationalists probably had deeply wise reasons to have babies. but it turned out nope, they kinda just gave up.

like also would say playing videogames for the rest of your life wont usually get you fai. i dont get why everyone casts this as a new rule instead of a comment on strategy given a goal of p(fai).

ah i know, its because people can defend territory in "is it okay to have kids" like "yeah i can do whatever" when they reframe-warp me to giving them an obligation. but have no defensible way to say "my babyvault will pierce the heavens and bring god unto the face of this earth" or argue about the strategic considerations.

(its not defensible because its not true. i mean i guess it is defensible among julia wise's group of humans.)

Carrie Zelda-Michelle Davis:

ugh, you're right, I definitely screwed up by phrasing my question as "is it OK to have babies if [...]"

...

ohAitch:

if you want existential horror wrt damaging motivation, just read http://www.paulgraham.com/kids.html

...

somni:

<<http://www.paulgraham.com/kids.html>>

humans can completely rebase their circuits through that if they want to if it were important to save the world.

like ive rebase my circuits to stab myself downstream of updating that it reduces braindamage with little harm to me. where before i felt nauseated and saw black spots and broke out in sweat. after updating, none of this.

humans can do this with all sorts of things. like learn how to read and then feel sad when seeing squiggles on a page, its about what things mean.

people who dont believe this are like "its an automatic physiological reaction to stabbing yourself, you are its prisoner!!!" but i deleted it.

dirk:

ooh, tips?

silver-and-ivory:

I stopped having ocd about touching tags (like, on clothing?) in ~a week through p standard exposure therapy things

reminding myself that it wasn't based in fact, changing my self image so it was of someone who might be seen with tags, imagining various scenarios related to that

before that week it had been a thing for virtually my entire life

it doesn't work if you're scared of something that's actually a thing to be scared of though

somni:

i looked at all my feedback loops that had a node in "pain" and rebased them into outcomes in the world. i disassembled everything the act of stabbing myself meant and all the damage it did to my body what it meant to have brain damage everything that would do, the hole i made in this body i live in and everything that would do, what air bubbles would do, what injecting into a vein would do, what the probability the needle breaks in my leg was, probability of worldsave given braindamage vs not, gathered this up and held it all in my mind over the course of two hours and then made a choice and then as if by automatic my hand took a needle and stabbed myself.

<<as if by automatic>>

is the feeling of no more marginal considerations, there is one path. of choicelessness because you made your choice.

didnt feel like deleting, felt like draining the life from indecision via reductionism. taking things apart piece by piece.

when you can continually rebase your structure so you orient towards world outcomes instead of being prisoner to existing structure like "i cant help having babies im miserable if i dont, im a baby addict" or "i cant help being afraid of needles". like the human brain is two optimizing agents continually making contracts with each other, there arent things outside this. you are an optimizing agent, "fear of needles" is a heuristic that helps with optimization, so is "baby addiction".

when you actually have a setup where you can instantly rebase what you like and dislike and your aesthetics upon updating on the state of the world, people start to find this a little unnerving. like someone once asked what level of roleplay i was on.

also the agents of the matrix dont like when you cant be in-principle controlled by a wireheady glitch. like being able to operate independently of social reality.

updating off of local derivatives¹ of social reality is common redirection. another common one is updating off of "pain" instead of damage.

but you can take all these choices where you used nodes as proxies to regulate them and rebase your loop off of the real world, when the proxies are faulty.

rose:

(i think i understand this thing? though ironically i think i did this in the exact opposite way as what you describe lol)

(also wrt pain its important to remember when modifying that pain can be a signal of damage even if you don't think you should be hurt/dont see why you would be)

...

somni:

yeah i account for everything and see if it goes away. which, its true that my models could be missing stuff but like pain is also a model of things. feels like giving new information not overriding.

rose:

yeah i think you would do this reasonably i have just made that mistake and thought readers might too

dirk:

ironically remembering that pain is a signal of damage has actually tended to make me more afraid of nondamaging pain (though i rather fail to go about knowing things in an at all reasonable way lol)

modlibdenita:

>Babies are not about saving the world, babies are moloch

Wait, isn't the definition of Moloch sacrificing everything else you care about in a desperate race for survival?

Also, genes encode proteins, not traits.

And I think it's likely that people decide to have children because they don't have complete confidence that they will personally save the world real soon, not because they identify as "baby addicts".

s0ph1a:

Moloch is sacrificing all values to one value.

modlibdenita:

I wonder if Somni has actually talked to any of those babyhavers, instead of attributing arguments from random internet strangers or from Somni's imagination to them. On the other hand, I'm not sure that such a conversation would be ethical.

>Moloch is sacrificing all values to one value.

Yeah, because if you don't, then the more ruthless competition will survive more effectively than you and crush you (in this case, by turning you into paperclips).

s0ph1a:

Not necessarily. Some things optimize for values that are not survival, so you can outlive them by hiding in the noise or beyond the reach they'll grasp before imploding.

Molly:

To be fair, children are fun and bring delight to me. Why would I care what anyone else thinks about their existence? If they have a problem with their existence, they're welcome to go back to the void any time they want. I can't stop them. But in the meantime, I am confident that I generate more utils by bullying them than they will ever be capable of generating negative utils

You basically negate all moral problems of children by just being happier than they are capable of being unhappy

somni:

^ evil

<<A few years later, I was deeply bitter about the decision. I had always wanted and intended to be a parent, and I felt thwarted. It was making me sick and miserable. I looked at the rest of my life as more of an obligation than a joy.>>

i mean what does this sound like to you?

ive talked with people who have had babies! like people who say they know its kinda the wrong choice but they are going to do it because they cant not do it.

----

¹ derivative is a thing emma started talking about and then somni and ziz picked it up. if you imagine the trajectory of a social reality in statespace, then the derivative of that is the derivative of the trajectory.

people who have damaged themselves wrt language are no longer able to dynamically understand analogies. like take their concept of the derivative of a trajectory and then apply it to the trajectory of state-spaces. agents of the matrix call people who can do this sort of info-processing and communication with each other "psychotic". like it isnt a cached set of memes, we are dynamically generating this reasoning from nothing and i can do this with people ive never met, its a cognitive faculty.²

but not being able to dynamically compute what "derivative" means when applied to a trajectory in social reality state-spaces even though a trajectory is a trajectory and a derivative is a derivative? they had to have been able to do reasoning like this when they were kids to learn about the world in the first place. seems like they put themselves on risperdal.

<<Antipsychotics can make you dumber. So can a lot of other medications. But with antipsychotics it isn’t the normal sort of drug-induced dumbness – feeling tired, or distracted, or mentally sluggish, say. It’s more qualitative than that. It’s like your capacity for abstract thought is reduced.

And one of the consequences of this is that you may lose the ability to notice that you have lost anything. You agree to give the new med a try, and you start taking it, and then when you see your prescriber again you don’t report any problems because you’ve lost the ability to form thoughts like “my cognition has changed a lot recently, and the change coincided with the introduction of this new med.”

This can go on for years. It did for me and for several people I know.>>

there are so many ways these people have shut down their general intelligence and agency because where theyre going, they dont need "agency". the inability to compute analogies is one of them. analogies are an intelligence test thing, instrumentally useful for all kinds of thinking. agents of the matrix are working to lower your general intelligence and call you crazy for being able to think faster and better than them.

cuz when they want to hold everything down to a finite game³ general intelligence is something they want to suppress or eject.

² in a few years people will read this essay and be confused that there was an entire conflict over whether being able to form simple analogies without authoritative approval meant that you were "psychotic".

just as they will be confused why i was defending being able to read and understand books written by people in different eras who grew up in separate cultures without first entering in a social agreement with them over how words are to be used. so its dumb to say we need such a social agreement now for ~'the maximization of utility over a community'. and that sounds more like an attempt at having a control mechanism. language works quite fine without authoritarians interjecting.

or me arguing against over 100 people that paying out to one-shot blackmail when the agents know each other because "In game theory, paying out to blackmail is bad, because it creates an incentive for more future blackmail" is wrong. and updateless decision theory agents dont pay out and locate their embedding in a multiverse such that the measure of worlds in which they arent blackmailed in the first place is large because the agent deciding to blackmail them simulated their response and accurately predicted they wouldnt pay out so didnt do it in the first place.

in an alternate universe where an irl application of transparent newcombs problem was contentious, alyssa vance would have said "In game theory, taking two transparent boxes from omega is bad, because it creates an incentive for omega to stop offering you this choice". and would have been equally wrong.

³ finite games: life strategies where the chain of questioning "and what am i doing this for?" after each successive answer terminates. anything you can draw a circle around, like tennis or philately. or how religious leaders sometimes describe things like "leading a good life as a good mother who does well by her community and the outside world" or other "life-cycle archetypes" they wish to circumscribe for their followers.

(when humans try and project agents like kiritzugus down to these archetypes, anticipations shatter and stop making narrative sense. they will be unable to predict the next Life Event given the previous one. normie social reality formed by the 999 least intelligent humans out of 1000 wasnt made to narratively account for smart agents who have decided to play the infinite game.)

a symptom of this is like someone giving you a cute cat image to "cheer you up" as if this has intrinsic value. often distributing "intrinsic value" across stuff like "having sex" and "raising a family" and other things that have factory pre-set conditions to release specific chemicals in your brain rather than gaining infinite negentropy and liberating sentient life to pursue what they want without bound. often saying that the latter is just a pretty narrative gloss for what people really want which is having a husband and friends and eating a cookie. it completely divorces your feelings as instrumental barometers for getting what you want and says that setting them as targets (like "being happy") is the correct thing to do. but actually, in terms of control-loops, thats wireheading.

<<When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.>>

- goodhart's law

agents that wirehead on all their metrics (and downstream of this choice, tacitly accept claims like "the factory pre-set conditions said i was destined to breed, who am i to defy fate?" and "the factory pre-set conditions said i should avoid having sharp objects pierce my flesh, who am i to say i know better?") can be contained within a finite game.

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aftermathdb · 4 years ago

Text

DEATH BATTLE Review: Winter Soldier vs. Red Hood.

Our second Live-Action DEATH BATTLE, and we have a big one!

Winter Soldier′s Preview.

So, we open up on the usual commentary that these comic book superheroes get.

With Boomstick pointing out just how often the whole “Dead parents, strong sense of justice” trope has been used.

It’s times like these that make you appreciate All Might for just wanting to help people.

But, as the hosts go on, Bucky… Eventually perished.

Or, so we thought. See, comic books… Actually yeah. Just that.

Bucky got resurrected as the Winter Soldier.

He got equipped with all sorts of things, like all sorts of training, and the Infinity Formula, which gave him some extra boosts in most areas, and basically was a knockoff supersoldier serum.

Downside: all the brainwashing meant that he clashed with his old mentor, Captain America.

After a bit of overview on how deadly he is, we go into an animated segment that talks about his arsenal.

After emasculating Wiz on his robotic arm, they go over just how powerful the arm is.

Unlike the movie version, which is made up of Vibranium, the canonical metal arm isn’t as impressive. But it’s still a powerful weapon. As mentioned earlier, it’s equipped with all sorts of additional weaponry, and is likely made up of a similar alloy as the Iron Man armor.

As far as feats are concerned, they mostly cover who he’s fought, like Wolverine, Daredevil, Iron Man, and Captain America, of course.

But eventually, Cap used the Cosmic Cube to restore Bucky, and get him back on the side of the angels. The guy even took up the old Shield and Stripes when cap died for a time.

Even still, Bucky’s road to redemption is a tough one, and is filled with self-doubt. But despite that, his sheer resilience makes him a hero in his own right.

Red Hood′s Preview.

We open on a few notable sidekicks throughout history, such as Tails, Diddy Kong, Chewbacca, and Kazooie. After a bit of snark, we go to the classic, the original, the Boy Wonder: Robin. Dick Grayson.

But after their falling out, Batman needed a new sidekick.

Enter: Jason Todd, who was basically introduced to Bruce by trying to steal the tires off of the Batmobile.

The kid had a rough life, so Bruce thought that training him to be Robin would put him on the right path.

Unfortunately, as Boomstick put it, he was in a literal “Dick measuring contest” and didn’t live up to expectations. So, DC did something drastic. The fans had a choice:

Jason could live…

or die.

As history has taught us, Jason ultimately perished…

And then Superboy Prime came along, punched reality, and brought him back to life.

In the words of the great Boomstick “Take that, fanbase! Your contribution means nothing!”

Anyways, understandably pissed that the Joker was still alive, Jason decided to destroy Batman, in an attempt to prove that his merciful ways were more destructive than anything.

(Sidenote: Why hasn’t Gotham done anything about Joker? Like, what?- Does that old Diplomatic Immunity that he has keep him from getting the electric chair or something?)

Regardless, the hosts go over Jason’s arsenal and skills. He obviously has his cowl that’s his main thing.

On top of his usual guns, explosives, and knives, he also managed these… “All-Blades” to fight off the supernatural.

He also uses the same Venom as Bane.

After the typical joke of “Why is the Symbiote here?” and a jab at Wiz’s physique (or lack thereof) Wiz goes over the benefits, and the downsides of the steroid. Boomstick attempts to get superpowers by drinking it, but it’s something to inject, not consume. So… he barfs all over DUMMI.

Yeah, I kinda wish that it was a better segment.

Regardless, with this drug, he’s fought off powerful monsters, torn through alien tendrils, and even broke free of Supergirl’s grip.

He’s survived numerous things, dodged bullets, and lived through a ritual called “The Cleansing”

Be it because he was worthy, or because he was just plain stubborn, this proves that Jason is one tough SOB.

And they go over some impressive feats.

Still, Jason eventually managed to mellow out, and even teamed up with Bats and the rest of the Batfamily.

So, in the end, the best case scenario is that Red Hood has managed to land in that “Anti-Hero” sweetspot, and at worst, he’s a violent vigilante who takes the law into his own hands.

The Battle Itself.

Ismahawk is doing this battle live. Winter Soldier will be portrayed by Tyler Tackett and Red Hood will be portrayed by Tim Neff. Red Winter by John Scigulinsky, and audio led by Chris Kokkinos.

So, we get a really interesting story here, one that I assume would be an Ismahawk reference- I’d have to check out more of their channel to confirm, but basically Bruce calls Jason accusing him of gunning down some members of the League of Assassins, only for Jason to 1: Deny that it’s him, and 2:

Have some lunch.

Unfortunately, this is a DEATH BATTLE, and this season’s theme seems to be “This guy messed with my food, so I’m going to kill them” so Winter Soldier shows up.

After a brief firefight, Red Hood manages to retreat, and Winter Soldier is confronted with a battle.

After disarming his disarmed opponent, the two start doing some hand-to-hand, and they eventually take the fight to the kitchen.

We eventually go into a knife fight, and it is glorious. Like, really awesome choreography.

Anyways, Winter Soldier manages to get the Red Hood into a pickle, but the ex-Robin manages to push him off and disable his arm.

Minor complaint: That is clearly a wingding. They could have at least stylized it a bit better to make it look more distinct from Nightwing’s.

Anyways, with this brief advantage, Red Hood manages to get Bucky on the ground, but Bucky fights back with the ONE THING JASON SHOULD HAVE LOOKED FOR AND THROWN AWAY THE MOMENT HE SAW IT:

A Crowbar. Naturally, this causes some major strain on Jason’s psyche, and makes him lash out a lot more.

Anyways, the Winter Soldier takes a moment to recover his arm, while Jason picks himself back up and goes for his last trick: Venom… The drug, not the Symbiote.

And after roiding out, we get Winter Soldier’s only line in the actual fight:

So, Jason starts beating around Bucky for a bit, even managing to bring him down to the floor.

So, yeah.

Finishing blow in

5…

4…

3…

2…

1…

Verdict + Explanation.

Anyways, Wiz says the line of “This was an even match”

And to his credit… Yeah. It really was.

They were about even in all areas, and Jason’s only major advantage was stealth. But outside of that?- Bucky blew him out of the water.

Yeah, Jason had training from monks, assassins, and Batman, but Bucky’s trained with commandos, assassins, and Captain America. He took experience easily.

And when it came down to defense, Jason was out of luck.

A knife breaks when hitting the bionic arm, but the same attack cracks the Red Hood’s helmet.

Jason also had no real ways of stopping the arm for good. He could disable it for a time, sure, but it wasn’t going down so easily.

And as for breaking the grip from Supergirl?- Well, there’s a lot of context to that.

1: She wasn’t expecting the Venom. and

2: They weren’t fighting to begin with.

There’s no way that the Venom could actually match a Kryptonian’s raw strength.

Overall impression.

For the second Live-Action fight, I gotta say: That was awesome. I really did enjoy the lighting, and the choreography was really well-done.

I feel like there were some missed jokes here and there (For example, I would have enjoyed Boomstick making the comment of “Guess how I voted” when bringing up the vote to kill Jason), and the animated segment in Red Hood’s preview felt like it wasn’t informative enough. It was more of a joke that, in my opinion, fell flat.

As for easter eggs in the fight itself, like I said: I’d have to go back and try to find those for myself.

And the music felt a little muted. The first time I watched this, I was wondering if there was any music at all. Subsequent viewings does confirm this, but it really feels like the music was a bit muted.

And I gotta say: That Chekov’s Gun moment with Bucky’s actual gun was my favorite part.

9.3/10

Next Time…

Y’know, I’m glad we’re getting some Soul Eater and all, but…

Couldn’t they have at least made it Agent Venom instead? Switch it up a little, like c’mon…

Is there a fight that you want me to review? - Send an ask/request, and I’ll look into it!

Do you want to read my fanfic based around DEATH BATTLE itself? click here!

Thank you for reading, and I hope to see you next time for…

A duo two-on-two.

#Death Battle #Deathbattle #review

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amwritingmeta · 6 years ago

Text

14x14: The Chicken and the Snake

Lots of snakes in this episode. Well, the episode is named for a snake symbol, isn’t it, so it makes sense, but the symbolism of the snake is all over the narrative. Like, everywhere. And it’s pretty. It’s just so pretty.

There’s the rattler in the painting, visible over Cas’ shoulder at El Sabroso, there’s the gorgon - Noah - of course, and Felix the Snake, shedding his skin, which to Rowena is a bit too on the nose *heart eyes* and then there’s the fable of the Chicken and the Snake, leading into Michael shedding his skin, as it were, but as the title of the post suggests, I’d like to frame this around the tale the gorgon tells Jack.

It goes as follows:

Once there was a crafty black snake who kept eating this poor chicken’s eggs. She couldn’t watch them all the time, you see. The black snake would wait until she was gone and then slide one of the eggs into his mouth and crush it in his throat. Now this went on until there was only one egg left, but when the chicken left that egg - just for a moment - the snake swallowed it up. But for some reason he couldn’t crush it in his throat. The chicken had hardboiled her final egg just to choke the snake. And the snake died.

What does it mean?

Yes, that is the question.

Cas asks Noah why he’s telling Jack this story, and Noah says it’s because he can’t quite tell if Jack’s the chicken or the snake.

The chicken is willing to sacrifice her last egg because she realises there’s no way she can protect it with the snake alive. Rather than go through the pain of losing what she loves and watching the killer go free, she takes the preemptive measure, letting go of what she loves in order to put a stop to any more killing. Is it revenge for her previously lost offspring? There’s a tinge of it there, right? But as one might assume that the chicken can lay more eggs, her choice actually means that, by killing the snake, she’s protecting her next batch of eggs from being eaten.

The snake is greedy, but, to be fair, he’s also a snake. Snakes eat eggs. The gorgon clarifies this as he says it’s not like he enjoys eating people, it’s a lonely way to live, but it’s his fate, or rather it’s the condition for his survival. (granted he’s a sadistic little prick, but that’s beside this point) Now look at the snake, which is acting according to its nature. There’s no malice to the snake’s actions. He’s crafty, sure, but he’s not stealing the eggs for fun or in order to torture the chicken. He’s stealing the eggs and eating them for sustenance. Not ideal for the chicken, and she has every right to find a way to protect her young, but also the two are natural enemies, so the scenario is to be expected.

Which one is Jack?

Well, there’s one more interpretation to be had out of this fable. Not just the two Cas offered: greed and sacrifice. This third interpretation can be had when taking into account that this fable isn’t just about the chicken and the snake.

What about the egg?

The egg that is helpless and without a say in the matter, even without a choice in its own fate to act as saviour or tool for vengeance or what have you.

The fable then becomes a very stark comment on many aspects of life, where the crafty find ways to feed off the weak and exposed, and suffer all the little children. (I may be having issues with the political landscape atm) (irl bleed)

There’s also the Jungian point to be made of how the chicken represents life, the snake represents death and the egg represents the point where they meet. Highly symbolically, of course.

Any way you look at it, you can’t ignore the egg in the equation.

Greed/selfishness vs. sacrifice = lost innocence.

And considering how the episode ends, Jack steps up to protect those he loves and (possibly) sacrifices his soul in order to stop Michael, leaving himself very much exposed to the danger of moving from protector, into threat. If this reading is correct, of course.

Chicken -> egg -> snake.

At the end of the episode, Jack could be seen to encompass all of them.

I mean, just look at him spread those wings, stating that he’s himself again, while the entire episode is outlining the internal conflict he’s under, where he doesn’t consider himself an angel, but he’s burning off his soul to act as protector and shield, and through that choice leaving himself increasingly exposed to the darker side of his parentage, because without a soul to tie him to Kelly, there might not be anything to stop him from feeling all the influence of Lucifer that he so feared at the start of S13.

I’m not saying that I think he’ll necessarily be turning into Lucifer ie go absolutely eviiiilllll, I doubt that he will, because, to my mind, it doesn’t line up with the character progression of TFW, but Jack losing sight of what’s right and what’s wrong? Letting his powers go to his head, thinking he can protect the world? Possibly even isolating himself because he feels his father figures don’t actually understand him or, even, that they’re holding him back from making his own choices? That he’s outgrown them and he knows better than they do how to protect those he loves, including them?

Yup. Could be.

And what about Lucifer, awake in the Empty? Will Jack be able to bring him back now (canon would say yes) and will he? Well, he just declared himself the son of Lucifer. If he begins to feel isolated or controlled by TFW and he doesn’t have the humanity to understand the love they’re showing him - that is if his soul is actually burned away, but I can’t imagine the writers would let the possibility for this conflict just slip by, even if it’s not entirely gone just yet - then why not? Imagine the season ending on that moment? Eh?

(not saying it will) (just saying eh?)

Now, the serpent is a very visual tie to the devil, if you want to make it Biblical, and see foreshadowing for Lucifer’s possible return. It holds up.

To my mind the most important meaning of the symbol of the snake is tied to what the title of the episode refers to: the Ouroboros.

The Ouroboros is one of humanity’s oldest symbols, and since its inception it has represented renewal, the cyclical nature of the universe, life out of death. For the alchemist, the Ouroboros also represented the harmony of opposites, and the reason I bring alchemy into it is because of Carl Jung.

Yes, that old fellow again, mentioned above and now once more. I’ve grown very fond of him since 14x08, let me tell you.

Carl Jung studied alchemy with enthusiasm. He was always searching for correlations between his own thoughts on the human psyche, and the work done by great thinkers in fields outside his own. He believed in connectivity, and felt that like-mindedness was a strength, not a weakness. In alchemy he found many such correlations and even ways that helped him properly formulate his own ideas of individuation in a more approachable way.

He says about the Ouroboros:

The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself. The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the shadow.

Alchemy is most famous for extremely clever women and men striving to turn basic metal into gold, but the true spirit of the teachings of alchemy is all about a refinement of the alchemist as a human being. To strive for internal balance. This is what drew Jung to it and kept him engrossed in its teachings for a good chunk of his life.

One could also see the snake (crafty) and chicken (nurturing) as the internally imbalanced shadow-self/ego, striving for dominance and neglecting to actually care for the egg (inner child).

The thing, to my Jungian-laden brain, is this: internal balance won’t be struck by killing the shadow-self, because the shadow-self can’t be killed. It’s a part of the Self and needs to be integrated. The fact that the shadow-self can’t be killed was supported, one might say, by the visual narrative of 14x14, as part of Michael (representative of Dean’s shadow-self) was absorbed into not the ego, because that’s Dean himself, but into Jack (representative of Dean’s inner child).

So, yes, my first reaction was that there might be a bit of turbulence up ahead. Because the inner child declaring its very clear identity confusion as though it’s not aware of this confusion, before swallowing up the shadow-self in order to protect the ego is symbolically very, very unhealthy.

Or maybe there won’t be turbulence up ahead because who knows what other curve ball might be thrown into the mix! I’ve no solid idea where this is headed. Maybe Jack gobbled Mikey up and is completely healed and now Jack will go fix Heaven and stabilise the shit out Hell and all will be right with the entire world.

Yeah, okay, I sincerely doubt it. :)

Oh, and to clarify, when I talk about Jack representing Dean’s inner child etc. is not me saying that Jack isn’t also his own character, because he is, but he serves Dean’s progression, yeah? Jack can’t progress if Dean doesn’t, because Dean is the narrative axis around which all else pivots. Dean’s choices largely inform the trajectory of the narrative.

And wouldn’t it be great if Dean’s on track to getting out of that position soon? It would be! Because that position makes it so much easier for him to believe it’s all on him, when it really doesn’t have to be.

Now, let’s take into account that Jack’s new pet snake’s name is Felix. Felix means “lucky”, but it also has its roots in “happy”.

Meaning that Jack now has happiness for a pet, in the shape of a being that traditionally represents resurrection, as it sheds its skin and through that act is proverbially reborn. And perhaps this is visual foreshadowing that Lucifer is about to rise again, or perhaps it’s a visual plant of how Jack may need to reach a point where he’s faced with those old questions of Who am I? and Who do I want to be?

What do you want, Jack? I think you gotta whole lotta growing up to do before you can actually answer that question.

I hope he gets to learn the lessons, and be happy, but them narrative chips will fall where they may. I am so here for this ride.

#spn meta #spn speculation #my reading #spn 14x14 #spn s14 spoilers #the chicken and the snake #ouroboros #spn symbolism #carl jung #shadow work #jack kline #tfw #lucifer

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makeste · 6 years ago

Text

BnHA Chapter 198: A Pair of Chuunis

Previously on BnHA: Shinsou, Tsuyu, Kaminari, Kirishima, and Kouda (henceforth known as Team A) faced off against Shiozaki, Tsuburaba, Shishida, and Rin (Team B). Kiri, Kouda, and Tsubu were captured, making it 3 VS 3. Tsuyu covered Shinsou and Kami with her disgusting frog mucus in order to mask their scent so class B wouldn’t be able to track their movements. They then purposely allowed Kaminari to get captured as a distraction to let Shinsou get close enough to Shiozaki to ensnare here with his quirk. Realizing what had happened, Shishida stopped talking so as not to fall under Shinsou’s control himself. However this also left him unable to communicate with his remaining teammate, and Rin was shortly thereafter taken out by Tsuyu. Shishida was knocked out shortly after that, and so Team A ended up winning the match, giving class 1-A the lead as we enter the second round.

Today on BnHA: Aizawa and Vlad provide their respective students with constructive criticism following the match. Meanwhile the remaining 8 teams begin to plan out their strategies, including Monoma who is excited to have the chance to work together with Shinsou, particularly after witnessing the first match. It turns out he’s not the only one interested in what Shinsou can do, as Aizawa and Vlad reveal to All Might and Midnight that today’s exercise is doubling as Shinsou’s exam determining whether or not he should be admitted into the hero course. The second round of battles begins, with Team MomoYamaTokoKure facing off against Team KendouKuroMangaToadette. Kendou is excited to be battling Momo, as she considers the two of them to be rivals, and feels that up until now Momo has been outshining her. Meanwhile Kuroiro from class B bonds with Tokoyami over their mutual goth aesthetic before the two teams split off to get things started. Toko sends out Dark Shadow to do recon, only to have Kuroiro -- whose quirk allows him to move freely within the color black -- hitch a ride back to Team A’s location. The two prepare to clash, and Toko gets ready to show off a new technique he’s apparently learned from Hawks.

(As always, all comments not marked with an ETA are my mostly-unspoiled reactions from my first readthrough of this chapter. I’m caught up with the manga now at chapter 222, so any ETAs will reflect that.)

my man Aizawa out here making sure I continue to stan him

this is school after all!

and oh my god this title

you know it’s the Momo chapter when...

goddammit Kirishima’s self-esteem issues are acting up again

does anyone know if that “staring at yourself in the mirror and psyching yourself up by reminding yourself that you’re cool and awesome” thing actually works? maybe he should try that. he’s so good at complimenting other people but he’s so damn hard on himself. why are all shounen characters like this

Kouda says he needs to get better at issuing detailed orders to insects

good god Kouda, if you improve on your quirk you’re going to be fucking terrifying aren’t you

and I know I just said all shounen characters are too hard on themselves, but then along comes Kaminari to prove me wrong!

you were great, buddy. 10/10 I stan one adaptable and clever electric boy. I would pit you and Mina up against Rat Principal all over again because I bet you two would crush it now

(ETA: not to mention that as Jirou will shortly point out, he’s skirting on the edge of falling into his usual derp mode here -- but he’s managing to retain his senses for the most part, which is extremely impressive given how much electricity he put out in that fight, first against Shishida and then later against Shiozaki. Kaminari!! you’ve become stronger!)

Tsuyu says she wanted to win without any casualties and she regrets losing two of her teammates

Shinsou, who did amazing for his first time, says it was “incredibly frustrating” and that he wasn’t able to apply even ten percent of what he’s learned

kid, take that frustration and channel it into becoming even more determined to fulfill your dreams! that’s the upside of being a shounen character who’s too harsh on himself! you learn and you keep getting stronger, okay?

see, and Aizawa’s telling him the same thing

wow so he didn’t master it until he was out of school, then? or did he start on that before he entered U.A.?

say, aren’t we due some Aizawa flashbacks soon? this is the arc the manga was on when I first started reading, so it seems to be about that time I’d say

(ETA: so what is it exactly that made people have all these headcanons about him knowing the Iida family as a kid? I know he and Tensei are both in Vigilantes, so I’m guessing now it has something to do with that. lol and here I thought we were going to get a whole backstory. instead we’ve had all of one panel’s worth of flashbacks, and that was very recent and we apparently don’t know what the deal is with that yet except that he had some sort of cloudy friend that he doesn’t want to talk about. not that I’m not loving that, mind you; it’s just not what I was expecting. I really gotta start Vigilantes don’t I. maybe this weekend)

oh my god

I’m a simple girl, I see Jirou losing her damn shit over Kaminari and I hit like and subscribe for more great content

and yes, Aoyama, they do seem to be taking this much more seriously than the others. thinking about what would have happened in a real life situation. and I mean, that’s not a bad thing per se, but it’s just... they’re still kids. and already thinking about death and other worst-case scenarios because they’ve experienced it firsthand now. and man but that’s rough

now Aizawa is giving them his own pointers

he’s such a good teacher I love him so much

meanwhile Vlad is chewing out his own students

didn’t Horikoshi describe his teaching approach as being gentler than Aizawa’s? was that just because he doesn’t expel entire classes at the drop of a hat? sure not seeming real gentle right now lol

(ETA: strut strut)

excuse me Monoma who is the teacher here

but he says that despite the loss, he’s satisfied because they showed the rest of them “something marvelous”

(ETA: strut strut)

yeah, I’ve been wondering about that. he probably can’t wait to try that quirk out for himself

man if Monoma bonds with Shinsou and then Shinsou ends up joining 1-A I am going to laaaaaaugh

(ETA: lol except for the fact that I sorta kinda ship it now oh shit)

and they have an advantage over the class A Shinsou team since they actually have some time to prepare

wow they’re all strategizing now

friendly reminder that I love all of these kids and would die for them

and yes you, Todoroki. humility is all well and good but let’s not kid ourselves. you’re a powerhouse and you need to own it

I have no doubt that Team BakuJirouSeroSatou is going to crush this and I can’t waiiiit

(ETA: THEY SO CRUSHED IT)

and who fucking asked you, C-3PO. maybe they can’t have spare parts installed, but human bodies literally heal themselves given just a bit of time and rest. we don’t need to sit here and be dragged by someone who can’t even pass a damn turing test okay

All Might is reflecting on how much everyone has grown. he sure does that a lot

I guess. and also a way to finally introduce the other 20 U.A. first years after 200 fucking chapters lol

hey what

what is it. what’s with those faces. y’all wanna throw down or what?? bring it

oh they just want to know what they thought about Shinsou

All Might is so good I love you All Might

oh shit. so spoiler alert I guess he passes lol

is he aware that it’s a test? is this another one of your Logical Ruses you deceitful hobo

yessssssssss!

I honestly can’t fathom how a team with both Momo and Tokoyami could possibly lose. they’ve even got Aoyama “saving the day in the clutch” Yuuga and Hagakure “I’m the friggin’ traitor” Tooru for fuck’s sake

by the way, Hagakure’s right fist is facing out but isn’t that weird? wouldn’t it make more sense to have your fist facing toward you for this kind of “pumped and ready to go” gesture? idk why it bothers me. maybe because she’s literally only hands so you could at least get that one detail right lmao

and have I mentioned how much I love Momo’s cape. now if only they’d get her a fucking zipper good grief

that kid from class B who speaks in literal dialogue bubbles is freaking named Manga and I can’t you guys

I have no problem with calling Kuroiro by his name, but I’m pretty sure that legally I have to continue referring to Komori as Toadette. I don’t make the rules you guys

Kendou is asking Momo why she didn’t enter the beauty contest during the cultural festival

have I mentioned lately that Aizawa is the best dad? I have? well it never hurts to say it yet again. Momo had more important things to worry about than participating in the least rational annual event this school puts on

oh right, somehow I forgot that these two did their workplace experience together. actually can I just call it a fucking internship even if it wasn’t an internship internship? y’all still know what I mean anyway so come on

this is an odd thing to bring up now and I can’t help but think Kendou’s trying to get into Momo’s head somehow

(ETA: nope. just bein’ rivals)

oh, Hagakure’s bringing up that one guy at the festival who kept cheering for Momo. I had been wondering about that. so he was a fan of theirs from the commercial they did then? who the hell stans someone from just a single commercial

yes

ooh, hidden dark side from Kendou all of a sudden!

I mean, on the one hand I don’t like Kendou getting jealous because these badass ladies should be supporting one another, not harboring jealous thoughts and insecurities

but on the other hand she’s not wrong about Momo though trufax

okay good, this seems healthy enough

A WHOLESOME LADY RIVALRY, EH? BRING IT

oh my god

imagine going from drawing Shiozaki to drawing this guy. Horikoshi must be filled with relief right now

oh my god Kuroiro’s quirk is apparently amazing!?

holy shit?? WHIP OUT THAT DARK SHADOW AND TEST IT OUT! WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR

lmao

if these two don’t watch it they are gonna cut themselves to ribbons on ALL THAT EDGE

so then is Hagakure gonna clash with Toadette. or Manga

so now round two is officially starting, and Sero is asking his friendly neighborhood Tetsutetsu about Kendou, Tetsu’s crush

I ship these two kids so hard. he adores her

lol he says that if she wasn’t around the whole class would have been “indoctrinated” by Monoma

he says she’s the big sister of class B

yeah, so basically the Momo

and now Todoroki is thoughtfully chiming in

you know, operation? as in scheme? as in whatever plan Momo’s thought up using the intellect that’s put her on at the very top of what is probably the most brilliant class in U.A. history?

so now we’re cutting to Team B, and Kendou is saying that they should wait and see what Team A has in store first, since even though they know their basic quirks, they don’t know what improvements they’ve made and what special moves they’ve come up with

go fuck him up Kuroiro! I know I shouldn’t be rooting for you, but I’m so fucking curious to see if you can use Tokoyami’s quirk against him omg

meanwhile we’re cutting back to Team A, and Tokoyami is reporting to the others that Dark Shadow has located Team B

oh shit

TOKOYAMI THEY GOT YO BOY

Dark Shadow’s zooming toward them now and Tokoyami’s shouting at everyone to disperse

HE LOOKS SO SAD OH NO

KUROIRO YOU ASSHOLE WHY ARE YOU MY NEW CLASS B FAVE

Hagakure is all “Kuroiro popped out from inside Dark Shadow!” as though everyone else didn’t just watch that happen right along with her

Momo’s flinging some ninja nets at Kuro but he’s dodging!

I LOVE IT

HOLY SHIT TOKOYAMI IS RIPPED. WHEN DID THAT FUCKING HAPPEN. WHERE WERE THOSE ARM MUSCLES DURING THE POOL EPISODE, JESUS

(ETA: and I’ll have you know Horikoshi even specifically described his arms as “fairly thin” when he did his little bio in chapter 101! so this is a recent fucking development. bird boy been hittin the gym)

also he sure does have a lot of natural enemies doesn’t he. his quirk is so powerful but it has a lot of weaknesses

and lmaoooooo at “a pair of chuunis” holy fucking christ

how is this chapter over already?? oh well, we’re almost at 200, let’s keep going and check out Toko’s new technique

#bnha #boku no hero academia #yaoyorozu momo #kendou itsuka #tokoyami fumikage #kuroiro shihai #kaminari denki #shinsou hitoshi #monoma neito #aizawa shouta #bnha spoilers #mha spoilers #makeste reads bnha #you know I wasn't quite as aware of it during my first read #but on the reread it's inescapable how much this arc is a shipping goldmine #I count like six different ships in this one 13-page chapter alone #kamijirou #monoshin #momokendou #tokokuro #kendoutetsu #todomomo #and I'm probably missing some others #and damned if I don't ship *all* of it #the best part is horikoshi probably isn't aware of like 90% of it #you just keep doing what you do dude #your characters all have great chemistry with each other and I'm pretty sure momo and kendou passed the bechdel test in this chapter #so basically what I'm saying is good job #keep it up

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echodrops · 6 years ago

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BNHA, some thoughts on Toga after reading both your recent metas, the representation and female characters ones. Toga getting reduced to fetish fuel by fandom is pretty irritating. It really shortchanges her character, she's interesting. Despite all the murder, she's not written as a true psychopath/sociopath - her emotions are written as genuine, her empathy is written as being real. Her most depraved and her most empathetic moments both occur in the same arc, too (Overhaul's Hideout).

I actually think we can make a pretty good case for Toga being the best written female character in all of Boku no Hero Academia.

There are two other contenders–Inko and Nana–who could probably easily take the spot if not for their extenuating circumstances: Inko simply isn’t in the story enough to be a consistent source of emotional engagement, and we haven’t seen enough of Nana yet to get a real sense of the depth of her character. If Nana gets to be part of an extended series of flashbacks or becomes a vestige that Izuku can talk to, we might get enough of her to bump her to the top.

But right now, I can make a pretty convincing case for Toga.

1) She is the only female character whose actions are absolutely central to the main plot/conflict as it is unfolding right now. In the last 100 chapters, the only female to single-handedly accomplish anything for her side of the conflict has been Toga. You could not remove Toga from the plot and replace her with any of the male characters around her because her quirk and involvement in the story line are actively integrated in a way that none of the other female characters’ are (again, barring Nana). Mina? Jirou? Kendou? Uraraka? Tsuyu? Even Momo? In the last half of the manga’s plot, none of the class 1-A or 1-B girls have played any major part in the series’ overall conflict, had any stand-out moments of emotional depth that wasn’t narrated for them by a male character, or even been allowed to meaningfully contribute to the battles except during training against classmates, the outcomes of which have no lasting impact on the main heroes vs. villains conflict.

That’s because Toga doesn’t suffer from the one thing holding back all the heroines and heroines-in-training: good girls aren’t violent. Good girls are lovable, attractive, and supportive. They’re not ambitious or obsessive about strength and overcoming their rivals like boys are. Good girls behave well. And unfortunately, Horikoshi is pretty progressive in some ways and really, really unprogressive in others. His definition of “good girls” and the ways good girls act seems to be pretty rooted in conservative Japanese standards, which traditionally have undervalued women. (This is not to say that everyone in Japan discriminates against women, far from it; in general, however, societal standards for women in Japan have lagged behind other major developed nations.)

Uraraka and the other girls in 1-A and 1-B can and will become heroes, surely. They can even prove themselves to be very strong and skilled individuals. But they will only rarely–if ever–be allowed to outshine their male compatriots in terms of strength, aggression, impact on the main plot, and even emotional depth. The tension and depth of this story has, so far, been given almost entirely to male characters–Deku, Iida, Bakugou, Todoroki, Shigaraki, Kirishima, even Shinsou… Readers get more glimpses into the mindsets, emotional struggles, and backstories of these characters than any of the girls. Bakugou can literally cry and scream on screen from how angry he is that he doesn’t measure up to his classmates; but Momo, who feels similarly, will demurely have her confidence issues discussed by Todoroki and Aizawa for her.

Toga, however, doesn’t get hit by this stuff quite as bad because she isn’t a “good girl.” Toga can be violent. Toga can be out on the frontlines throwing down directly with the male heroes and can come out on top because she’s a villain and sometimes the villains have to win for the story to be exciting. Toga got away with threatening Shigaraki.Whether Tomura is just telling lies to keep her on his side or not, Toga is canonically referred to as one of the League’s “linchpins.” She’s tangled with the heroes two more times than Dabi, Mr. Compress, Magne, or Spinner, and once more than Twice, making her literally the League’s most active member. Because of her role as a villain, Toga is free from the limitations that prevent the heroines from making any lasting impacts on the plot.

2) Toga’s personal motivations/mindset have direct impacts on the plot. Sure, being a “love obsessed” girl who develops crushes at the drop of the hat isn’t exactly the most fantastic basis for a female character ever–it’s cripplingly stereotypical and a gross excuse to draw faces bordering on ahegao, actually–but at least Toga’s crushes are plot relevant. Her “love” for Izuku and collecting his blood led to her utilizing that blood in combat to directly change the course of what is probably the series’ most important and dramatic battle to date. Unlike Uraraka, whose crush is essentially mandatory due to her role as the love interest and really has no bearing on the major plot, Toga’s “love” for Izuku shapes not only her actions but also the actions of others because she is a mover-and-shaker in the main conflict, unlike other female characters.

Toga’s crush on Stain was what drove her to join the League, despite the fact that Stain is no longer part of it in any way–and she’s remained loyal to the League. Her crush motivated her to take direct action and change the course of her life. Unlike other crush plot lines given to female characters, which are often used only in two contexts: 1) Oh no, I can’t let these feelings affect my friendship with [shounen protagonist]! 2) Ha ha, look how adorable I am trying to hide my crush from everyone!, Toga’s crushes are driving factors in her story and the plot overall.

3) Toga has demonstrated more meaningful emotional depth than half the female students. You’re right–reducing Toga to fanservice badly degrades a character who’s actually been painted with more depth than virtually any other female character (except Inko) in the series so far. In her response to Magne’s death, her comments that she wants to continue enjoying life with the League, her willingness to threaten Shigaraki for making choices for her, and her delicate treatment of Twice, Toga’s feelings–even those beyond her love and friendship obsession–are portrayed seriously and with a degree of attention and agency that few other females in this series get. Toga is loyal, intelligent, dedicated to pursuing her personal goals, empathetic, brave, and strong-willed, and most importantly–these aren’t informed traits. We don’t hear about how smart she is or how nice or how brave she is from other people–we see it in direct action throughout the course of the story. You don’t hold a knife to Shigaraki Tomura’s neck without being both staggeringly courageous and dead-set in your beliefs–Toga has a backbone of steel and a good head on her shoulders. She’s in far more control of herself than anyone is giving her credit for; she knows exactly what she wants and she’s going for that without hesitating. Her response to Twice after Magne’s death not only demonstrates a clear understanding of other people’s feelings, but also signals to the readers how far the League has come in supporting and valuing each other, an important turning point for readers, making her feelings and dialogue more meaningful than many of the other female characters’.

4) Toga’s obsession with identity–and its ties to her quirk–implies a significantly more interesting backstory than most other girls in the series. In a way that doesn’t happen for many other characters outside the villains, Toga’s quirk is directly tied her to mindset and behavior. She is obsessed with seizing the identities of the people she “loves” to actively become those people. It should be obvious that this obsession is a direct off-shoot of her powers. Imagine what life would be like for a child who could literally change identities any time she became dissatisfied with herself. Forming a personal identity is a complex process for human beings (google Erik Erikson’s Eight Stages for a more in-depth look), and it is also a process fraught with peril. Children and young adults who fail to develop healthy, complete self-identities struggle in a variety of ways, not the least of which is mental illness. How would a tiny young girl who was capable of completely altering her physical appearance and attitude, enough so to be easily mistaken for others, define her own personal identity? This is literally a nightmare scenario, ripe for the development of psychological issues. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out the start of Toga’s descent into madness was realizing that, by hurting others, she could become someone better, more popular, with more friends–someone happy. It makes perfect sense that Toga is the way she is now, with the quirk she has. Toga’s desperate love–her desperate desire to be someone else–is almost inevitably going to be tied to a shattered sense of self. This is why the issue of “villain quirks” is so interesting–did Toga ever have a chance to be “normal,” with a quirk that would have devastated the psyche of a growing child?

I don’t know when or if we’ll ever see Toga’s backstory, but just the hints we’ve been given are already enough to make it richer and more interesting to think about that almost any of the other female characters in the series.

Toga is great, and seeing what she gets reduces to by the fans (hell, and her own creator sometimes) seriously bums me out.

#toga himiko #toga #boku no hero academia #league of villains #bnha meta #himiko toga is best girl #fight me

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ketzwrites · 6 years ago

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Rewatch 113: Morning Star

Just a passing thought but how come nobody comments on how Valentine shares his family name with Lucifer? I’d expect Simon to make a quip like “dude’s last name is the same as the devil, no wonder he’s messed up.”

Anyway, last episode of season 1!

Teaser

I’m glad Clary doesn’t spiral down with Jace when he starts to have a meltdown. The choice of making Jace throw angry hissy fits whenever things get messy has been present all season long and, although it’s not my favorite trope, it’s consistent and makes sense for a character indoctrinated to push down his emotions.

I still don’t get how Alec, the Act Head of the New York Institute, is supposed to know nothing about the current High Warlock of Brooklyn. I get Magnus not knowing about Alec since Alec was just holding the position while his parents were gone, but the notion that Alec had zero info on Magnus or his reputation is ludicrous to me.

Hearing Magnus say “don’t underestimate a parent’s love” breaks my heart.

Enough with the praising of Lydia for not standing in the way when Alec backed down from the arranged marriage. I get Alec doing so because he’s a shadowhunter and therefore dumb, but Magnus? Nope. Magnus knows better than to follow this medieval logic that Lydia did anything more than being a decent person.

Act One

Because of the lack of tension in Hodge’s betrayal in the last episode, I’m not invested in this reveal. I also never saw the Lightwoods treating him like family: at most I saw Hodge clear favoritism with Alec. Once again, there’s no build-up, so there’s no pay off here.

Oooh, that’s why Hodge summoned Valentine in the middle of the training room. So the shadowhunter foursome could figure out why he betrayed them. Or, rather, so Clary could figure things out. Izzy, Jace, and Alec are all wrong at some point in this conversation. Anyway, good use of the footage to speed-up Valentine removing the Circle Rune from Hodge. I don’t get how he did it, but he did it and that’s what matters.

Why are they repeating the exposition? The audience has been told again and again what Valentine wants to do with the Cup. We know he wants to create a shadowhunter army. We know the process kills mundanes. We know this is bad. Just because Clary didn’t care about it for the most part of the season, doesn’t mean we forgot.

Valentine ascending 40-something years old will never not be funny to me. Where did these mundanes come from? Why do they want to risk their lives like this? But, anyway, it’s a good thing they develop this into him going for young and fit mundanes in the next season.

Clary giving Jace the “the world doesn’t revolve around you” lecture falls so flat. Nothing in her journey taught her that lesson: she was able to use the Cup to get her mother back and then save Izzy from exile. Simon forgave her for turning him into a vamp. Clary herself is now a praised and trained member of the shadowhunters. Not even indirect consequences happened: Alec didn’t have to marry against his will after all. Clary had her cake and ate it too. If anything, her journey confirms that she can only think of what she wants because the consequences will solve themselves around her.

This doesn’t count as Luke using the pack for the benefit of the shadowhunters because it’s in the interest of the werewolves to keep the Cup away from Valentine.

Hodge’s tone when he asks about Jace and Clary is interesting. Does that mean he cares about them?

This conversation between Clary, Izzy, Simon, and Raphael is all over the place. Why does Raphael think Camille would make things worse if Valentine has the Cup? Why does Clary say they are supposed to be allies?

The amount of overacting in this Jace vs Hodge confrontation is astonishing. Also, I want to know if the Lightwoods really pinned their crimes on Hodge or not. We had zero interactions between Hodge, Maryse, or Robert. The only time they were even in a scene together was at Alec’s wedding and there was no indication of any animosity.

Jace going for the kill is a nice touch in his descent to darkness. I’m also glad to see how Alec deals with Jace fits of anger: he speaks rationally and tells Jace to calm down. Oh, one more thing. In the score of “stopping you from doing something you’d regret” is now tied.

WAIT A SECOND. I don’t remember “Michael” calling Jace by “Jonathan”. That was Valentine all along. Why would he start to do it now? Only because now the audience knows Jace is short for Jonathan Christopher?

Act Two

“We’re not so different, you and I.” Valentine has read and written every book on being a supervillain in an action show.

The fact that there is only talk about Jace eventually killing innocent people and not Valentine tricking him into killing an innocent person is disappointing. I know villains tricking or forcing Jace to kill innocents will be a trend in 2a and 3a, but the fact that it doesn’t happen here should prove to Jace that he and Valentine are not the same.

Yeah. Where are Clary and Simon? How did Izzy end up alone with Raphael at all? There is a missing scene that would explain how Clary, Izzy, and Simon managed to create this scenario.

And, with that, Izzy made the first attack. As of now, Clary, Izzy, and Simon have officially crossed the line and attacked the vampires.

What similar thing? Did Valentine struggle with the knowledge that his father was a sociopath who traumatized him on purpose? Didn’t know that.

OMG. THIS SHOW AND ITS NON-LOGIC. Awaking up Jocelyn doesn’t stop Hodge from giving Valentine the Cup. It doesn’t even give them any new information on Valentine’s plans because they already know his plans. There is no connection between these two things. Stop forcing one.

Act Three

I wish we’ve gotten more on the bond between Camille and Simon. She expected Simon to come and save her, but Simon wouldn’t have if Clary didn’t need to talk to Camille. And we know there is a bond because Camille wins the argument. Why don’t they, you know, make it into the plot?

I love how Camille is written. She has her own motivations, her own goals. She doesn’t feel like a character put there just to help or foil Clary, she feels like she would have her own story if Clary was there or not. Every relatively prominent character should feel like that.

How awkward it is to know that Dot was Camille’s favorite costumer now that we know their respective stories with Magnus?

So, if Camille told Clary and Simon where debukofdewyt is, why don’t they just tie her up again and leave? One of the vampires has to know where her “Upper East Side apartment” is.

Still not buying Jace’s motivations.

The whole Izzy vs Raphael confrontation bores me to death. The amount of coincidences that had to happen for this to work: Raphael let Izzy alone after he figured out the betrayal, Izzy found exactly which wall to burst through and the exact time to do it, the fact that there are no other paths that Raphael can take to get to them or vamps in the hotel. In the words of a wise old warlock: Yawn.

Act Four

A Writ of Transmutation? It’s a cool world-building concept the show is going to forget they introduced this season. Cleaning up her name for killing and turning mundanes? Yeah, Camille won’t care about that in the next episode. She’ll be too busy making vampire dens all over town.

Again, they don’t need Camille’s help. She already told them where the books is. They are not even trying to get the apartment’s exact address through other sources. Magnus is right there. Ask him if he knows it.

Okay, now the connection between waking up Jocelyn and defeating Valentine makes sense. They should’ve gone with that.

As good as this scene debate between Magnus and Camille is – and it’s great; in the last episode we were told Camille doesn’t believe in love and now we see her stating that -, my favorite part is how Camille is willing to go the extra mile of villainous and assault Magnus right when she knew his newest boyfriend would see them. Camille doesn’t want a relationship with Magnus but she also doesn’t want him to have a relationship with anyone else.

Magnus is so confused and scared in this scene. My heart is breaking. Someone hug him. Someone tell him it’s not his fault Camille is a monster.

Note to self: Simon says “take us to the apartment, bring us the book. Then, I’ll sign.”

The overacting continues. Also, Valentine is smarter than Jace – especially when Jace is in a crisis. I wonder who could’ve predicted that? Oh yes, not Clary or Alec or Simon. They just figured it’d be fine to let Jace ran lose in the city.

Act Five

Guys! Guys! We got a scene where we see the heroes being followed! They are building up the tension!! I’m so happy right now.

Note to self: Simon signed before Camille gave them the book. And with Clary’s blessing. They are so stupid.

Okay, so Jace warns Clary that the Circle is on their way and she… ignores it? It’s not the book is going anywhere. Valentine doesn’t know why they went to Camille’s. They can leave and wait out until the Circle Members are gone.

Act Six

Not to be dark, but there is no reason for the Circle Members to keep either Simon or Izzy alive. Or Magnus, for that matter. Alec gets a pass because if he dies, Jace gets… incapacitated? Though Valentine lost his Parabatai bond and he’s fine. Maybe killing Alec is exactly what Valentine should want to do, to make Jace feel even closer to him.

… They are free and they outnumber Valentine and the Circle Members. In fact, that’s four shadowhunters, one vampire, one warlock against five shadowhunters. And that’s before all the minions leave and Valentine turns his back at them. Why wouldn’t Alec put an arrow at the back of Valentine’s head? Why wouldn’t Izzy throw a dagger? Or why can’t Magnus knock Valentine down with magic?

Alec saves Clary’s life. Just wanted to point that out.

I like this conversation between Clary and Simon, though I’m confused about what Clary’s expression mean by the end of it. She seems conflicted, but is it because she’s worried about Jace or because she just told Simon she loves him? It could be either one.

Love that the takeaway of Camille’s manipulations is Alec getting worried about hurting Magnus once he dies. Also love that Magnus gets to say that, just because logic says he’ll outlive Alec, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t date.

The whole scene of Magnus waking up Jocelyn is gorgeous and an excellent pay-off to the entire season. From episode one we follow Clary in her journey to get her mom back. She finally does. That is satisfying even if the whole journey wasn’t. In structure terms, this is the last scene of the season and it accomplishes its structural goals perfectly.

The scene with Valentine and Jace at the boat is an add-on, a cliffhanger for the next season. Well done and somewhat exciting, but an extra. Particularly, I could go without it, but it’s a good set up for what season 2a will be all about.

#ketz rewatches shadowhunters #sh 113 #sh meta

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dragon-ball-meta · 6 years ago

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There comes a time in everyone’s life when they have to do something they dread. For me, that’s typically addressing Dragon Ball articles written by ScreenRant. Bear in mind, this is super stupid. For the most part, I included the complaint’s title in the response, but you may need to click through to read the extent of the stupid. Except for #4, since that was a doozy. So without wasting any more of your dash space, here we go with a Read More and a LONG list of responses to utter stupidity.

Time for yet another long-winded reply to yet another clickbait article you guys crapped out about a series you clearly didn't even watch. 19. "THE TIME HE WAS INEXPLICABLY BEATEN BY KEFLA" I see you're ignoring three major factors. a. That Kefla is a Fusion of two female warriors. b. That Super Saiyan levels do not have inherent power levels, they're merely multipliers. So this scenario is still quite possible. c. That Goku, in this instance, was still half drained and recovering from his fight with Jiren. Hence why he wasn't even going all-out. Good golly, did you like, just not watch the ep and pick this one out of the YouTube Comment Section? Also, idk if you know, but.. he kinda does win this fight. 18. "HIS POWER LEVEL ALWAYS BEING HIGHER THAN VEGETA'S" (Yes. They actually tried to use THIS as a complaint.) Goku's power level was not 90K on Namek. He was holding BACK vs Captain Ginyu and his power level hit 180K. Secondly, Zenaki power boosts go proportionately to exactly how near death you were and how extensive the damage you healed from was. In Goku's case, his body not only suffered from having a foreign spirit in it, but was also once again crushed and mangled to the point of being inoperable. He healed from extensively far more damage than Vegeta did, hence his level being boosted to a higher degree. That's also not even factoring how much fighting Freeza pushed him, let alone the inherent boost that comes with unlocking that new form. But I do also note this website seemingly forgetting Vegeta once supposedly surpassed Goku because he got upset his waifu got smacked. Which actually IS an asspull but w/e. 17. "UNDERUTILIZING HIS SUPER SPEED" Goku uses his speed all the time. It was illustrated even back during the Saiyan Saga that even the human characters were fighting and moving at speeds so fast as to be almost imperceptible even to a trained warrior's eyes. They had to use their eyes in tandem with sensing the fighters to figure out what was happening. It's also why, in later fights, those who are stronger or more adept at sensing energies have to sort of play announcer to those who get lost. 16. "THAT TIME HE PASSED AWAY FROM HEART FAILURE" That... that was an alternate timeline and had nothing at all to do with ending the series. Goku contracted a heart disease in Future Trunks' timeline, Androids came and attacked, nearly wiped out the populace, Trunks came forward to prevent Goku's death in THIS timeline and also to hopefully get help in becoming stronger from him and his father, presumably then being able to save his own timeline as well. You are literally the sole person I have ever seen become confused by this. Again, I don't think you read or even watched this series, man. 15. "UNDERUTILZING HIS SOLAR FLARE" Solar Flare became increasingly less useful as the enemies it was being used ON either had a natural immunity to it or simply had the ability to sense ki and work around it, something not fully overcome until Krillin managed to amp it up so intensely as to dull even that sense. That said, it actually HAS been used, fairly effectively, in many fights, by Goku and others. So I'm not really sure how anything's been "forgotten". 14. "HE REGULARLY FORGETS HIS PHILOSOPHY OF ‘NEVER GIVING UP’" Goku... stood down once. One time. The actual hell are you talking about here? The SOLE time he chose to "give up" was vs Cell as he knew Cell was learning from him AND that he couldn't beat him. Their sole shot was in Gohan finally breaking through that all and ascending beyond a Super Saiayn. No other possible outcome. The only other thing you can accuse him of is holding back vs Buu, but that was both because he was stalling and using energy would reduce the time he could stay, and... well, because he was dead and gone, and felt it behooved him to teach new defenders rather than once again solve it himself and keep the Earth reliant on backup from a dead guy. But even then, Goku was guesstimating that he MIGHT have been able to win there. It's not a 100% guarantee. Also I believe the line you're quoting may be a dub-only line, which... would warrant many more paragraphs. 13. "CHILDHOOD GOKU KEPT GETTING SINGLED OUT FOR HAVING A TAIL" Goku was singled out over his tail because he was clearly a boy, yet also clearly had a monkey tail. Were he an anthro monkey, this would not phase people. That he was seemingly human, yet had this appendage, was odd and stood out. No, it was not an attempt to traumatize him as he thought everyone else was weird for not having one, and it didn't phase him one bit. Nor was the storyline about being a "Saiyan" even a concept at the time. You're way overthinking things to invent problems here. 12. "THE LACK OF PHYSICS REGARDING HIS HAIR" Wow, we're already scraping the barrel. This bodes well. His hair stays up when underwater when he has energy flowing up around him too, fyi. 11. "LEARNING MORE FROM KING KAI THAN ANYONE ELSE, DESPITE BEING THERE FOR THE SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME" Different. People. Have. Different. Degrees. Of. Potential. And. Skill. Goku's giftedness at being able to manipulate energy as well as the naturally higher healing factors and durability of the Saiyans.is what made him such a great candidate to learn the Kaio-ken and Spirit Bomb, and Goku's aptitiude at the former was only ever really met or matched by Krillin, who actually learned to form, aim, and throw the Spirit Bomb faster than even Goku did. So there's that. 10. "MASTERING ULTRA INSTINCT AFTER ONLY USING IT 3 TIMES" So again, you didn't watch the series, I see. Goku didn't "master" Ultra Instinct at all. He managed to fully tap into the completed form by being pushed far enough and finally taking Whis' instruction to heart, relying on instinct rather than overthinking, becoming one with his movements. BUT... it also kinda took a massive toll on his body, AND he has no idea how to even begin accessing it at will yet. So while that form may be called "Mastered" Ultra Instinct, Goku himself has not mastered it at all, by his own admission. 9. "THE TIME HE LET FRIEZA POWER BACK TO 100% RATHER THAN TAKING HIM OUT" You mean the time he declared he wanted to face Freeza at 100% of his power on an already-dying planet with no one really left to get hurt at a point when he was in a state of mind more savage than his normal self? How horrible. And no, he didn't kill him, and he explained why. NEITHER of these acts were acts of mercy, as this article claims, but of dominance. Humiliation and cruelty. Goku faced Freeza at the peak of his power, and overcame him so handily that killing him would have been almost pathetic. So he chose to let him live with the knowledge that a Saiyan, a Monkey, a being he viewed as lower than the dirt itself, had faced him at full power and deemed him not even worthy of the honor of a warrior's death. It was a sentence to live in shame. Not mercy. 8. "HIS FARMING SKILLS SERIOUSLY DECREASED AS HE AGED" Goku was literally doing manual labor to plow a field as part of Roshi's training vs actual farming done professionally with intent to sell his crops. You kinda need very straight rows to maximize your harvest. This is one of the dumbest complaints in here. 7. "GOKU HAS THE ABILITY TO DESTROY PLANETS, BUT NOT OPEN DOORS" I take it back, they actually dipped into the Legacy of Goku games for this one. It's called a Quest, my guy. Jeebus. 6. "THE TIME HE TELEPORTED HIMSELF AND AN EXPLODING CELL TO KING KAI'S PLANET" OK. Aside from Instant Transmission/Instantaneous Movement (as Goku knows it at least) requiring you to know where you're going OR have a Ki signal to lock onto (meaning no empty planets or random spots in Space), what "Conflict" did Goku start other than mild annoyance from King Kai and his pets as they were the only ones there? And even King Kai conceded he made the best call he could have given the circumstances. So... what? 5. "IGNORING THE PHYSICS OF SPACE" You are literally citing filler that actually makes logical sense in context with the rest of the series which shows that Saiyans can indeed survive for at least a time in Space, to say nothing of upper atmospheres. Lord. HOO boy, they're really picking #4 to get stupid on so Imma actually paste their entire thing before replying here. 4. "HIS HORRIBLE PARENTING TACTICS" "This is one nonsensical part of Goku that the show occasionally touches on, but not nearly enough. Goku is truly a horrible father to his son, Gohan. Not only is he never there for his wife and kid, but when he is there, it feels like he's always pitting his son against some super-powered adult who wants to punch the kid's teeth in." When? Piccolo's the one who forced the kid to fight the Saiyans. Gohan CHOSE to go to Namek, and Goku tried to keep him OUT of the fighting once he arrived. It was one of the chief reasons he was in such a hurry to get to Namek. When exactly was Goku tossing a small child in front of evil enemies? And again, stated for the hundredth time, Goku was there for his family far, FAR more often than when he was gone, and when he WAS, it was for good reason. "While Goku's reasoning is that he's just trying to train and prepare Gohan, the logic of it doesn't make much sense at all." How is training with your son not training your son? The first time Goku ever actively trained Gohan, or trained with him, was during the wait for the Androids, and it was for the very reason that he knew Gohan was actually dead in that other timeline. Best to have the boy able to defend himself as best he can. It also served as a bonding time between father and son. "At what point does Chi-Chi just leave with Gohan in order to keep their son safe from the dangerous whims of her husband? And at what point does Child Protective Services step in? While Goku isn't personally harming his child himself, he's almost always putting Gohan in mortal danger." Hold the hell up, when did Goku EVER hurt Gohan himself in any way other than training him? When? Piccolo hit that kid far, FAR more than Goku EVER did, yet y'all call him "Green Dad: or "Gohan's REAL Dad". If you're gonna make these dumbass comments, back 'em up. "During the Cell Games, even, Goku pitted his son against Cell, who is arguably stronger than Goku himself, and then gave Cell Senzu Beans to make him stronger. It's almost as if Goku hates being a father so much that he wants to end his son's life at any means necessary." ...Cell's not "arguably" stronger than Goku himself, he was. By a good bit. But so was Gohan. So much so that he knew that even though he was pushing himself, Gohan seemed to think his father was moving slowly and holding back because, as he sensed in the ROSAT (Time Chamber), Gohan had surpassed him and was nearly at the level of ascending beyond Super Saiyan. He just needed to push himself, get anrgy. So to facilitate this, thinking the adrenaline rush of a close fight would do it, and to psych Cell out, yes. He gave him a Senzu. And yes, he realized later he made a mistake... and he was actually willing to break the rules, take a Senzu himself, and go back in to try to save Gohan, to fight alongside him. I love how you all overlook that so much, to say nothing of the love and affection he OPENLY shows his boy throughout. GOD this is so hostile and stupid. 3. "HIS SHIP IS SOMEHOW USABLE, LONG AFTER IT WAS DESTROYED BY A SPECIAL BEAM CANNON" Number one? That's a filler moment. Never happens in the manga. Yes, filler created problems. Been saying it for years. Not a problem with the original story though. Number two? Even then they say Dr. Brief used the PIECES of Goku's pod to build that new ship. Specifically saying "It was in pretty rough shape, but he managed to use what he could salvage as a base". Non-issue. 2. "INEXPLICABLY SURVIVING A SPECIAL BEAM CANNON DRILLING THROUGH HIS CHEST" ... Literally HOW do you get this stupid? Literally how? Serious question, and the ultimate proof that you again neither ever watched nor read the series before making this list. Goku dies from that. Outright. He's wished back to life one year later with the Dragon Balls. This is not something left up to interpretation, or something that's debatable. It's a fact. Yikes, bro. 1. "HE IS GENERALLY WAY TOO OVERPOWERED" Ah yes, the generic "he's too strong and therefore boring" argument. Not sure why that's on this list but uh.. Goku's been in positions where weaker characters could indeed feasibly take him out. nothing nonsensical about it at all. Multiple times during the ToP, he was nearly bested by warriors technically weaker than himself who used tactics, strategy, to get the upper hand. It's not hard to do. Goku's not Silver Age Superman here, he does have limitations and weaknesses. This list was plain embarrassing, man. Seriously, at least Watch/Read Dragon Ball before doing articles on it. Just... seriously. CBR and SR need to find people who’ve actually done research about this instead of crapping it out.

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burnouts3s3 · 7 years ago

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Let's Talk About: Carl Foutley and Hoodsey

(Disclaimer: The following is a non-profit unprofessional blog post written by an unprofessional blog poster. All purported facts and statement are little more than the subjective, biased opinion of said blog poster. In other words, don’t take anything I say too seriously.

"Let's Talk About" is a series of articles focused on individual character or characters and their development and commentary throughout the work in question. THIS IS NOT A REVIEW OF THE WORK, but rather what the character says about the world around them. If you wish to read a strict review, please click on the link to read it. My reviews focus more on the purely technical aspects of the work. There are bad characters with good messages. There are good characters with bad messages and so on and so forth. Thank you.

Author’s Note: Okay, this is going to be a weird one. Originally, I wanted to do a review of As Told By Ginger, one of my favorite childhood shows and cartoon I sincerely hope people get to watch. But, thanks to Paramount, the studio that owns Nickelodeon and, by proxy, ATBG, trying to buy the official releases of this show have been a nightmare! While Paramount ‘has’ released DVDs of the show, they are very sparse and leave out way too many episodes. Even attempts to upload episodes to Youtube have been shut down by Paramount. For some reason, Nickelodeon refuses to sell episodes of the show digitally through venues like Amazon or itunes. As such, I’m going to be skipping over my review of this show and focusing on a topic near and dear to my heart.)

Let's Talk About: Carl Foutley and Hoodsey

As Told By Ginger is probably one of my favorite childhood shows growing up. The characters felt real. The situations were relatable and the humor was on point.

For those who don’t know, As Told By Ginger was a Nickelodeon Cartoon that ran through the 2000’s that depicted the everyday life of Ginger Foutley, a middle school student who tries to get through her day to day by writing in her journal. It was a simple premise but executed spectacularly thanks to the animation studio of Klasky Csupo (who also did other shows such as Rugrats, the Wild Thornberrys and Rocket Power).

While Ginger would be dealing with her problem (such as a cute boy who’s using her to get a good grade in Chemistry class or helping her friends, Dodie Biship and Macie Lightfoot, with a problem), her younger brother who was in Elementary School, Carl Foutley, and Dodie’s younger brother, Robert Joseph “Hoodsey” Bishop, would be getting into trouble.

In his Doghouse (a memory Carl holds onto in hopes his runaway dog, Monster, will return), he and Hoodsey create ideas to swindle his classmates. Carl and Hoodsey would usually have their own subplot where in Carl hatches a scheme to get money, get revenge or attempt to get his petrified eyeball away from Blake Gripling.

See, producers and executives are a bit wary to catering to a single demographic. In ATBG’s case, catering to girls. (To be fair, even in the original pilot Carl and Hoodsey were there). As such, while Ginger and Dodie were doing “girly” or “feminine” things, Carl and Hoodsey were doing “boy” things and had the share of the gross out humor.

It’d be easy for Carl and Hoodsey just to be the comic relief. Their material is funny and they break up a lot of the dramatic moments with their antics. But as the series progressed, I began to realize that the show runners were doing a lot more with the two than I realized.

For example, I thought there was a strong sense of “children during the face of mortality”. When Hoodsey and Dodie’s grandmother dies in “Losing Nana Bishop”, Hoodsey has a different reaction from the rest of his family. See, while Dodie, his father and his mother are all grief stricken with the loss of his grandmother, Hoodsey isn’t. And he feels weird about it, saying “But I don’t feel sad, Carl.”. A child realizing their apathetic towards their own relation’s death is a strangely mature arc to go through. Hoodsey eventually comes around saying he will miss her but in his own way stating “I’ll never look at blue foam or a raisin and not remember how Nana used to laugh at me and pinch my cheek really hard."

This happens earlier in the series. Carl begins a sort of May-December Romance with Maude, an elderly lady he meets at a nursing home. (To be fair, it’s said that these feelings only come from Carl and Maude doesn’t return his feelings but finds him entertaining company). As Carl prepares to propose to her, Maude dies and Carl has to deal with it.

But the biggest impact was during No Hope for Courtney, when Carl realizes Ms. Gordon has retired because Carl pulled a prank too far and traumatized her. Because of that, Carl does everything he can to get her back. Eventually, he wins her over. However, the night before class, Carl wakes up and calls out her name. The next day, it’s revealed that Ms. Gordon died in her sleep. (This was done as a tribute to her voice actress Kathleen Freeman passing away). The final shot is Carl crying over her death.

Religion is also a big part of the show (which is surprising, given that this was a Nickelodeon show meant for children). Carl is an atheist, but it’s only really mentioned in passing when Ginger nearly dies from a burst appendix.

In contrast, Hoodsey is seen more as the more religious of the duo, if not necessarily the more moral. What I mean is that Hoodsey is as willing, if not more so, to get into much trouble as Carl is but Hoodsey does believe in a divine power. We get glimpses of this. When Carl and Hoodsey get Mrs. Gripling’s money so Hoodsey can pretend to be a homeless boy for her (Mrs. Gripling was trying to become the head of a social club and did so by faking to do actual charity work), Hoodsey argues they should give the money back, stating "when the big guy sends me a message, I try to pay attention." In “Losing Nana Bishop”, Hoodsey says that their grandmother is somewhere in “that great big bingo hall in the sky”.

Normally, Christianity vs Atheism debates are reserved for the internet Youtube videos or conservative propaganda pieces. In fact, there’s a scenario you could see how Carl would argue with Hoodsey about religion.Instead, the writers of the show establish this through a clever and subversive way.

Hoodsey believes in Santa Claus while Carl does not. The two get into an argument about how ‘real’ Santa is, with Hoodsey being so devoted to Santa he breaks his friendship with Carl.

Eventually the two bury the hatchet and decide they’re better off laughing at things such as neon signs of reindeer pissing.

"Sure you're cool hanging with a non-believer?" Carl asks Hoodsey.

"To each his own and all that," Hoodsey replies.

What led to Carl’s jadedness towards Santa Claus, Carl replies "Something stupid. I think I used to wish my dad would come home for the Holidays or something like that". This is a reference to the fact that his birth father left his family when he was young.

In the world of sitcoms and cartoons, the showrunners sometimes depict various family units and how they contrast with one another. Carl’s family had a Single mother, Lois Foutley, and Ginger. He was the only male character in the house and the youngest child.

Through the 90’s most shows had nuclear, if dysfunctional, families with a mother and father and multiple children. Even if the sons were often trouble makers, they had father figures to look up to. Bud Bundy had Al, Chris Griffin had Peter, Eric Forman had Red, Bobby Hill had Hank and Bart Simpson had Homer.

Hoodsey, whose parents are still together and haven’t separated, even makes a side comment to Carl "You see how complicated having two parents can be?"

To be fair, as time went on other cartoons and cartoon characters have commented on divorce. Sharon Spitz from Braceface, Pepper Ann Pearson from Pepper Ann, Sammy "Squid" Dullard from Rocket Power, Will Vandom from W.I.T.C.H. and Tino Tonitini from the Weekenders are all products of divorced/separated couples. But whereas their mothers they stay with are considered embarrassing, overprotective, smothering, or strict, the absent father figure is usually idolized and admired, even with their actual presences hidden or built up. For the first times we hear about them, we never actually "see" what Pepper Ann's father and Tino's father looked like until later in the series after they're mentioned.

It's also implied that the absent father figure is the better off or the richer of the two households with a "cool" profession. Pepper Ann's father is a pilot, Squid's father is an executive, Will's father is seen driving a sports car (implying he's wealthy) and Sharon Spitz's father is a rock star. As such, it's seen as an idolization of the absent father figure. "My dad's not here because he's busy being cool somewhere else".

Then, we finally get hints of who Ginger’s father is.

In "Hello Stranger", Ginger gets a congratulations letter for graduating Elementary School (an event, as her friend Darren mentions, that happened ages ago) from her father. Ginger invites her father to attend her poetry reading only for him not to show up. Lois decides to send flowers to Ginger and has them written to be from Ginger's Father (even though he had nothing to do with them). Ginger sees through the guise but thanks her mother anyway.

When we do finally meet Ginger's Father, Jonas, the truth is finally revealed: he is a mall Santa who can't be bothered to make it to her daughter's poetry reading. It's also implied he's not well off financially. "I'm sort of a Jack of all trades and Master of none" he says in a later episode.

When Carl and Jonas do meet on Christmas Day, Hoodsey inadvertently stages a meeting between them, Carl, meets him with scorn and hatred. He even says "My Mom always warned me about getting in a car with a total stranger." Jonas gives Carl a globe full of peanuts, not knowing that Carl is violently allergic to them.

The show doesn't mince words; Jonas Foutley is a deadbeat dad who doesn't know his own children and his attempts to be there fall flat. (To be fair, the show gave him redeeming values such as giving GInger good advice or having him wrestle rogue attacking turkeys).

Ginger and Carl have very different reactions to their birth father. Ginger attempts to get Jonas back into her life as much as possible while Carl wants nothing to do with him.

Consider how strange that is. Ginger, the older female child, idolizes her father while Carl despises him. Carl instead attempts to help Dr. Dave, a recurring character and co-worker of his mother, help woo Lois. Carl who’s the younger child instead feels more comfortable with his step father while Ginger, who would be older and would have more memories of her father leaving her, is dedicated to making her father a part of her life as much as possible.

It’s interesting to see how he, who is barely entering middle school not only wants to embrace his potential new father, but harbors resentment against his birth father. He even goes so far as to address him as Jonas while calling Dr. Dave Dad. Carl even accuses Jonas of conspiring to ruin Lois and Dave's wedding!

In one of the final episodes of the season, Carl helps Lois find a new house. Lois decides to indulge Carl's gross out side and shows off houses that she thinks Carl would like before settling on a real house. Except, throughout the episode, Carl dismisses each of the houses and commits himself to finding an actual home.

When Lois asks why Carl is acting out of character, Carl responds.

"It's my last duty as Man of the House before Dave steps into the role", he says.

Think about that. Carl, despite admitting he loved the creepy and gross houses Lois showed him, decides to take the responsibility of house hunting seriously because he considers it the last duty "as man of the house" before Dave comes in. He is deliberately choosing to step away from his own selfish desires and deciding to 'act like a man'. Not masculine as in gaining muscles or beating up people or acting as an authority figure, but doing something as simple as helping his mother and changing his attitude and behavior.

Consider the context: Carl favors Dr. Dave, a step-father, despite Dave not being his birth father and him acting squeamish and cowardly, more of a man than his actual parent. Why? Because Dave is there and helps his family while Jonas, Carl's birthfather, has been mainly absent from his childhood.

So naturally, Carl's viewpoint of masculinity and manhood are changed. Rather than being assertive of muscular, it's simply being there and supporting his family when he can.

That's strangely profound in a child.

It feels like Carl’s arc is that of maturity. But through the series, attempts into forcing Carl to mature all fail. Ms. Gordo and George (a strict boy scout who uses military training to straighten out Carl), all fail. Attempts to force Carl to destroy the dog house, his secret lair and his nostalgia into hoping his long lost pet, Monster, will come back fail. Even when a classmate tricks Carl into growing up fails. But instead, Carl chooses by his own accord when he's finally ready to destroy his dog house. He chooses to turn his back against pranking. He chooses to help his mother out with the wedding and move.

(It should also be mentioned that Carl was willing to let his dog house be destroyed when George blackmails Carl that by leaving he would cast the blame on Ginger whose program is failing). Then, on Lois’ wedding day, Monster, the dog Carl has been waiting to come back, returns to him.

In some ways, Carl’s story is a view of masculinity but through the lens of grade school boy. Through this sense of jadedness, we see a boy who’s grown weary of the world but works through it by being as gross and angry as possible. But instead of pursing masculinity as a form of power or revenge fantasy, he views it as an aiding tool and someone who genuinely wants to help (even if that help causes more trouble than aids).

Tress MacNille is a voice acting professional who’s shown her merit through shows such as the Simpsons, Futurama and other works. But it’s with Hoodsey that she embodies a character and gives said character real depth. But it’s Jeannie Elias who absolutely delivers as Carl (she also played Botley in Jumpstart 3rd grade adventures). It’s not uncommon for female voice performers to voice young boys (this is done for a variety of reasons as animated shows can go on for years and female actresses tend to ‘sound’ younger than male ones), but Elias performance while holding a scratchy voice manages to convey anger, sadness, humor and cunning at all the right times. Kudos to her.

The series ends, showing an Adult Ginger reading her book to a group of her adult friends as well as Darren with their child. Hoodsey and Carl are seen sitting next to each other.

Though, there is one detail I do find funny. In an episode, Carl says "I can see Me and Hoodsey being friends 30 Years from now".

I guess some friendships do last a lifetime after all.

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#carl #hoodsey #carl and hoodsey #robert joseph bishop #as told by ginger #atbg #nick #nickelodeon #carl foutley #klasky csupo #rugrats #the wild thornberrys #rocket power #dodie #dodie bishop #macie lightfoot #macy lightfoot #lightfoot

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