#oz franchise

[witchesoz]

Oz: What are the Famous Forty?

What are the « Famous Forty »?

Well, you must know by now that L. Frank Baum ended up writing fourteen Oz book, forming a series starting in 1900 and ending in 1920. The thing is, Reilly &Lee, the publishing house of Baum, knew very well how successful and popular the Oz series was, and refused to let it die with its creator. They hired new authors that became “Royal Oz Historians” and they were allowed to continue the Oz series – resulting in a total of forty “official” and “canon” book forming the full Oz series, as published by Reilly & Lee.

After Baum’s death, the publishing house put the Oz series in the care of Ruth Plumly Thompson. She ushered the second Oz era, by writing 19 Oz books, starting in 1921 and ending in 1939. Ruth Thompson style is quite different from the one of Baum: most notably, she tried to turn the Oz world into a more “classic fairytale” universe, by going a bit away from Baum’s innovations and novelties (for example, she turned the “Nomes” into “Gnomes”). Baum never had any male hero – Ruth had almost only male heroes. She was the one who introduced the most of the male protagonists of Oz, and she also had a greater focus on romance, weddings and royalty than Baum, a lot of her protagonists being princes and ending up married by the end of her novels. As a result, her books are quite controversial – for example, not everyone agrees with her decision to consider the Good Witch of the North’s old age a “curse” brought to her by enemies, that needs to be lifted so she can leave her job as the benevolent magic ruler of a region to become the pretty princess married to the kind of a city. But her presence in the Oz landscape stays very strong.

While she stopped participating in the Famous Forty in the 30s, she ended up releasing two more Oz books in the 70s: “Yankee in Oz” in 1972, and “The Enchanted Island of Oz” in 1976.

By this point, there were 33 Oz books.

The next official Oz historian was John R. Neill. He actually had participated in the Famous Forty before – he was the official Oz illustrator. He started illustrating the books with Baum’s “The Marvelous Land of Oz”, taking over from W. W. Denslow, and he ended up illustrating all of Baum’s and Thompson’s books. John Neill wrote three books for the Famous Forty, between 1940 and 1942: “The Wonder City of Oz”, “The Scalawagons of Oz” and “Lucky Bucky in Oz”. He actually had written a fourth Oz book for the Forty, but while he wrote it before his death he did not had time to illustrate it. The manuscript was however kept by his widow, and while not part of the Famous Forty, it was published in 1995, illustrated by Eric Shanower: “The Runaway in Oz”.

Neill’s take on Oz has been described as more… “manic”. Basically he had a children book illustrator’s mind when dealing with Oz, resulting in strong exaggerations – such as each quadrant of Oz being entirely of their associated color (from the sky to the skin color of people), or literally everything being alive in Oz, including houses.

After John Neill’s death, the next Oz Historian was Jack Snow. He was an avid fan of Baum’s writing as a child – in fact, when Baum died, Jack Snow offered to become the next Historian of Oz. It did not work, because he was only twelve years old at the time, but he ended up becoming the fourth Historian. He wrote two books for the Famous Forty: “The Magical Mimics of Oz” in 1946, and “The Shaggy Man of Oz” in 1949. It was rumored he had planned a third book, “Over the Rainbow to Oz”, but no manuscript was ever found. Snow wanted to return to a sort of Baum “fundamentalism”, by ignoring all the books of the previous Oz Historians and continuing right after Baum’s original books. Outside of his Oz writings, Snow was also a writer of ghost and horror stories for “Weird Tales”, and he notably produced a very daring short story – “A Murder in Oz”, trying to tie his two passions together by exploring the issue of the separate entities of Tip and Ozma. You must guess that the Oz editors refused to have such a story published, but it was eventually released by The Baum Bugle (the journal of the International Wizard of Oz Club, that started in 1957 and is still being published). Jack Snow also wrote “Who’s Who in Oz” in 1954, an extensive guide to all the characters in the Oz books. While the book was praised at the time and is still an important source of information, by now many have pointed several irregularities due to Jack Snow visibly misreading some of the characters (or simply losing track after reading 39 books in a row).

So, we are at a total of 38 books now. Only two were missing to form the Famous Forty.

The 39th book was written by Rachel R. Cosgrove: “The Hidden Valley of Oz”, released in 1951. She had written a second Oz book in 1954, “The Wicked Witch of Oz”, which tackled the issue of the missing Wicked Witch of the South, but she could not publish it, since Reilly & Lee considered the Oz books were not selling well anymore and wanted to close the series. The novel ended up however released by the International Wizard of Oz Club in 1993, illustrated by Eric Shanower. Rachel Cosgrove was notable for dismissing any kind of adult fan of Oz – she explained in the documentary “Oz: The American Fairyland” that she considered Oz to be a series for kids, that should not be enjoyed by adults.

The last book of the Famous Forty was “Merry Go Round in Oz”, released in 1963, and written by a collaboration: Eloise Jarvis McGraw and Lauren Lynn McGraw (mother and daughter). The two published another Oz book in 1980 (The Forbidden Fountain of Oz), while Eloise published on her own “The Rundelstone of Oz” in 2000.

There. These are the Famous Forty Oz book, the “complete official series”.

After that, the International Wizard of Oz Club published several books: as I mentioned they published the books of Ruth Thompson that were not included in the Famous Forty, as well as “The Forbidden Fountain” of the McGraw duo and “The Wicked Witch of Oz” of Rachel Cosgrove.

To these already mentioned book you can add “The Ozmapolitan of Oz”, a 1986 book by Dick Martin ; and two books by Gina Wickwar, “The Hidden Prince of Oz” in 2000 and “Toto of Oz” in 2006.

Finally, The L. Frank Baum Family Trust authorized an author named Sherwood Smith to publish new Oz books, declaring them officially canon. With this authorization, Smith wrote a trilogy between 2005 and 2014: “The Emerald Wand of Oz”, “Trouble Under Oz” and “Sky Pyrates Over Oz”.

These are all the books that could be considered “canon”.

Of course there’s always one more; the “orthodox sequels”. Books that try their best to be sequels or continuations of the official Oz books and their canon, but were not officially recognized as canon. There are several of them, starting in 1985 with James Howe’s “Mr. Tinker in Oz” and ending with “A Nightmare in Oz”, published in 2020 by David M. Keyes. A lot of them were made by members of Baum’s family, though there is a debate as to whether they should be considered “orthodox sequels” or rather “alternate Oz” books, but that’s for another time.

[the-osborn-way]

Holy CRAP it's the 28th anniversary of the orignial Woodsboro Massacre in Scream 1996 (and Maureen Prescott's death in 1995) --

Fun fact, just like today, the massacre would've taken place on a Friday evening into Saturday morning! Stu chose a nice time to host a party-

Happy Scream Anniversary for those who celebrate!! 🖤

Time to put on all my Ghostface gear, grab some popcorn, and enjoy the original film!

[mouse-doubleo100]

so like is wicked also apart of dorothys dream that she was explicitly having in ‘wizard of oz’ or is this a later dream that shes having after realising she might not be straight

[hamasapien]

“Ah, and when I return, I will find her. For sure. Another key of ours, Dorothy.”

[lopposting]

about the wizard of oz sequel

I have no idea how they're going to handle it.

I know that, almost definitely, they will be basing it off the public domain book, and not the movie. but the production of the movie was very infamously a nightmare. And I think it's going to be very difficult to not acknowledge the movie at all.

[They've already implicitly referenced the movie with the ruby slippers, which do not appear in the book]

TW sensitive IRL content under cut, at your discretion.

the original actor for the Tin man was hospitalized from poisoning from the silver dust used for the costume

the "snow" in the movie is just pure asbestos (actors died of cancer later in life)

Margaret Hamilton (Wicked witch) was severely burned (2nd-3rd degree) when a trap door failed to open on time and the flames went up during filming. She never sued because it would ruin her career. (Ironically she was also the only cast member Judy would say was ever kind to her on set)

16 year old Judy Garland (Dorothy) was pretty much tortured on set and it deeply affected the rest of her life. She will never ever be forgotten.

I didn't go into a lot of detail here. I hope they can honour her in some way. I totally don't think it's their responsibility to or anything, but I'm just expecting it to happen in some way. Even just listening to the song now and knowing some of what was happening in reality is extremely sad. It's surreal.

[darkfictionjude]

Another Wizard of Oz ask:

Would the RO's accept to watch the 1939 movie with MC? How would they react if MC sings every song as they watch the movie (and not just singing as in the stress reliever manner, but like actual proper musical singing)?

Imre: he’d accept he likes technicolor films. And would think it adorable if mc sang

Nia: would say yes but would start getting annoyed if mc doesn’t stop singing because she’s trying to listen to the movie not mc. And even then musical aren’t her thing

Lorcan: would say yes and wouldn’t get mad at the singing but not understand why mc does it. He likes their voice though

[allalrightagain]

Went looking for an extremely specific character name for a Wicked fic I'm writing and far be it from me to say there's such a thing as too much whimsy in a political commentary (or vice versa) but boy does this franchise have both in spades.

[autisticsupervillain]

It's Fictional Throwdown Friday!

This Week's Fighters...

Nonbinary Battle Royale!

Conditions:

No restrictions. Speed Equalized.

Scenario:

Popeye is selling some of his spinach at the mall in town. An enthusiastic Kirby inhales his entire stock without being able to pay for it, egging Popeye on into starting a fight. Frisk attempts to break up the brawl, only to get sucked into. Oz happens to be going on a date with Calculester nearby, when the robot sees what's happening and expresses his distaste for all the violence. Seeing an opportunity to impress their boyfriend, Oz leaps in to stop the fight themselves.

Analysis: Oz

Ask yourself this: what does the ultimate embodiment of fear look like? What nightmarish, unholy abomination could inspire the phobias of all mankind?

Stop thinking, because you're wrong. Fear looks like a shy, awkward high schooler who is desperate for a date to prom.

Well, okay, high schooler is being generous. In the Monster Realm, everyone who goes to High School is 21 at the youngest and today's combatant is actually older than time itself. Meet Oz, the inky-dark embodiment of fear himself. His primary concerns in life are, as you might expect, passing his classes and getting laid, as is the same with everyone at Spooky High. How Oz ended up in this situation is actually rather ambiguous. It's implied that their origin story might be similar to Zoe's, that being that they were an eldritch abomination created by The Nothing meant to destroy all life who eventually saw the beauty of life and choose to live as a regular person, but the details are currently unclear and this is only our closest guess.

What is clear, however, is that Oz's otherworldly power hasn't diminished any, despite their more mundane occupation and goals. They still posses an extraordinary wealth of abilites worthy of a timeless god. Firstly, Oz is remarkably difficult to put down. Not only have they been unaffected by damage done to their soul, but they can regenerate from fatal injuries as well. They can regrow severed limbs, regenerate vital organs, and even revive from being completely ripped to shreds, provided that someone stitches them back together.

What's more, they're remarkably durable to match. His stomach can contain the Totem of Z'gord, which is powerful enough to cause earthquakes all across the school, he can trade punches with Damien, who survived punching the sun, and was completely unaffected by the game itself crashing, able to act to reverse the problem even as reality comes crashing down around his ears and his friends and narrator are corrupted beyond the ability to even move.

See, Oz has something of a Deadpool thing going on... or maybe Gwenpool more specifically. He is, to a certain extent, aware that he's in a video game and can leverage that to his advantage on occasion. For example, he can interact with characters from seperate video games entirely (even if he can't actually see them, do to their character models not existing in his game), he can move outside the boundaries of the game map to exit reality, and even turn the game off and on again at will, reducing reality to nothing and then restoring it with a thought. This awareness does not equate to perfect immunity, however. He ultimately can never escape the game and the revelation of such gives him an existential crisis in one of the endings, though he can interact with the world outside it some degree, such as interacting with the narrator or creating a website in the real world that can interact with the audience.

Even when they aren't breaking the laws of the game over their knee, Oz still has some absurd powers in their arsenal. They are fully aware of the fact that they have plot armor, which is what gets them into their constant unlikely shenanigans in the first place. They can give this plot armor away to other people, making it so no one will pay any attention to them and they'll be ignored by any major characters as unimportant. Then, they can steal this plot armor back just as easily. He can become one with the entire universe at will, becoming everywhere at once, and can summon abstract concepts to fight on their behalf. These concepts can be anything, from the concept of Biology to the concept of they themself, and these concepts can destroy other abstracts, erasing the ideas they represent from existence. For example, he once summoned the concept of Biology and had it kill the concept of Math, erasing math from existence and making it impossible to calculate anything. And canceling math class.

So, if Oz is this powerful, how does he struggle with anything? Well, because it's a dating sim, really. None of this really matters as far as getting a date to the Prom is concerned and all of his powers are only useful if they help with the current social situation. Why did he become one with the universe? To get inside a really high monster truck, of course. Why did he destroy the concept of math? To get out of math class. Hell, the school has a backup generator to restore the concept of math if it's destroyed, so no one really cares long term. Why did he hone his mind to make it immune to horrors that otherwise drive men mad? To go on a date with Zoe inside a realm that does exactly that, naturally. Does it matter that's he's unaffected by demons altering the fabric of reality? If that means they can join his rave then sure!

What matters is his social stats. Luckily, Oz has plenty of those two. He can start a rave of over 200 people in seconds, trick two angels into thinking he's God with his ventriloquism act, and become chairman of an international corporation in a single day. And if their stats aren't high enough for some reason, they can just rip them out of you, either by eating your organs, mocking you until your social skills become his, or just by enhancing his own character traits with magic spells.

There's also their outright weaknesses. First of all, Oz is willing to do almost anything to get laid or impress their friends, including basically all the bullshit mentioned above. They are a desperate people pleaser with a really bad case of both depression and social anxiety, so the opinions of others mean a lot.

Despite that, however, they are every bit the eldritch monstrosity you would expect from the embodiment of fear in raw power if not in personality.

Analysis: Kirby

Kirby, Kirby, Kirby. It's the name you should know, they're the star of the show, Kirby's the one. While this impossibly powerful little puffball's backstory is by an large a mystery, the widely accepted explanation is that they are a reincarnation of the immense god-like being known as Void that came about as a result of Void interacting with positive emotions. They are the positive counterpart to Zero's and Void Termina's dark and hateful incarnations, who came into being as a result of Void interacting with powerful negative emotions.

As a result of this, Kirby is paradoxically both horrifyingly powerful and unrelentingly cute, cuddly, and friendly. They may aspire to no higher cause than eating cake, making friends, and sleeping, but I do not exaggerate in the slightest when I call their power godlike. Kirby has been stated several times to have infinite power and has defeated beings amped by the Master Crown, which was stated to have the same. This alone would make them universe level at least, but they have feats that put them well above that. The parallel dimension known as... Another Dimension (great name guys, not confusing at all) is shown to contain multiple universes within it in both Return to Dreamland and Star Allies, at least sixteen of which are shown to be affected by Magalor's defeat, culminating in Another Dimension collapsing outright. This means that Kirby, at bare minimum, is a universe buster, possibly even a small multiverse buster if we take this as all sixteen universes being destroyed simultaneously.

But Kirby has far more than just raw power on their side. As a matter of fact, they are well known for their versatility thanks to their Copy Ability. With it, they can inhale an enemy or object into their maw and transmute it into either a star shaped projectile or a copy ability, allowing them to copy a wide variety of powers from their defeated foes. They can combine these abilities, store them for later, or transform these powers into allies who can fight alongside them. And provided their opponent is too big for them to inhale, Kirby has ways of copying their powers anyways. By tossing their ability at their foe as an energy projectile, they can transmute enemies into copy abilities or they can just scan enemies outright with the copy ability known as... Copy. Again, great name, not confusing at all.

These copy abilities come in a wide variety, ranging from those that grant Kirby mastery over a specific weapon to those who bestow Kirby with some form of elemental power. Notable ones include ice Kirby, who can freeze foes solid even if they can survive in space, cook Kirby who can transmute enemies into food, magic Kirby who can use magic for a variety of purposes, ranging from summoning food to summoning allies, and Copy Kirby, which can copy the powers of whoever Kirby scans. Their most powerful Abilities can even do damage to the fabric of reality itself, ranging from their Ultra Sword cutting holes into other universes to Time Crash, which creates an explosion so powerful that it damages time itself, effectively allowing Kirby to stop time.

Even without their Copy abilities, Kirby is remarkably tough. Their incredibly small size of a mere eight inches makes them remarkably tough to hit, they can regenerate from being impaled in an instant, can inflate themselves with air and fly through the sky, and summon a warp star to help them fly across the galaxy in seconds. And if all that sounds like a lot for one little pink puffball, Kirby can just speed dial up three other identical Kirby's to help kick your ass on command. Or throw a Friend Heart at you to forcibly befriend you.

And if you somehow make it through all of that and manage to kill Kirby? They can simply come back as a ghost, steal your life energy, and regenerate their body from nothing. Unless you can kill ghosts, Kirby's just gonna come straight back.

Having said all that, Kirby isn't perfect. While they are shown to be strangely technologically and scientifically adept, they have also shown to be incredibly naive. They've been manipulated into doing the villain's bidding on more than one occasion and they tend to simply jump headlong into situations without any kind of plan.

While Kirby may not be Nintendo's strongest character as is widely believed, they are every bit the godkiller you've heard they are. The next eldritch terror that steps foot on the peaceful planet of Popstar is gonna end up like all the rest, running for it's goddamn life.

Analysis: Frisk

Long ago there lived two races, monsters and humans. The two races coexisted peacefully, for a time, until war inevitably broke out. The humans overpowered the monsters and sealed them away within Mt. Ebott.

Years later, a small child would fall into Mt. Ebott, swiftly finding themselves trapped within the caverns of the Underground. Miraculously, despite the hostility and mistrust that the monsters showed towards them, the fallen child chose peace. Over time, they would befriend the denizens of the Underground, eventually finding a way to break the barrier and peacefully reunite humans and monsters. This child's name... was Frisk.

Of course, Frisk did not accomplish this feat alone. Next to their compassion, their most powerful asset was undoubtedly their DETERMINATION. This emotion is, in fact, a supernatural substance largely unique to humankind. With the immense amounts Frisk has their disposal, they are able to utilize supernatural powers and perform blatantly superhuman feats.

Frisk's most prominent ability is their power to SAVE and LOAD. By filling themselves with DETERMINATION, Frisk can SAVE all the progress they've made on their journey thus far, allowing them to later LOAD back to that point at will. This ability activates automatically upon death and can even allow Frisk to come back from having their soul destroyed. There is a common misconception about it though.

SAVEing and LOADing does not create multiple timelines. Yes, Sans refers to timelines in the plural when discussing Frisk's abilities, but he does not mean that in the sense of there being a multiverse. What he means is that every time you reset or LOAD, you're effectively erasing the timeline up until the point you reset at. Sort of like rewinding time. The timeline that was just erased is seperate from the timeline you're now in, but they do not co-exist. This is consistent with how SAVE and LOAD is discussed throughout the rest of the game. As such, no reality desroying feats in Undertale are multiversal in scale, but more on that later.

Regardless, Frisk's DETERMINATION is still so immense that they can outright override the powers of other DETERMINATION users, such as Flowey, and their own SAVE and LOAD powers require multiple human souls to be overridden themselves. Frisk is also shown to be have their memories remain unaffected by the timeline alterations of both themselves and others, even with their SAVE and LOAD powers otherwise being overridden.

Their DETERMINATION has even been shown to grant them superhuman strength, speed, and durability, which, within the shown limits of their powers, scales proportionally to whoever they are fighting. Even at their most basic level, Frisk is capable of surviving some pretty intense things. They can walk around in Hotland unaffected, despite it being hot enough to completely vaporize a paper cup, can survive Undyne's oven exploding in their face unharmed, completely no-sold an electric shock that visibly hurt Papyrus, and walked through the CORE unaffected despite it being filled with Ozone, among others. These feats do scale to their attack potency, as they can contend evenly with monsters who can hurt them even without any killing intent.

Furthermore, Frisk's durability also scales to their soul, as monsters attack on both a physical and spiritual level. This is backed up by the fact that armors that increase the durability of Frisk's soul are items logically wouldn't increase their physical durability in any way, such as ribbons, bandanas, and aprons.

What's move impressive about Frisk however, is what they can do when their DETERMINATION is pushed to its absolute limits. When at their peak, Frisk can contend with universe busting god-like beings, such as Omega Flowey and Asriel Dreemurr. Omega Flowey opens their fight by destroying the entire timeline/save file and Asriel openly boasts that he intends to destroy the world once he starts actually getting serious. (This is backed up by the fight descriptor saying "the world is ending" during the Asriel fight, as well as Asriel having infinite stats under the Check menu.) Furthermore, Frisk can continue to fight and move even after Flowey destroys the timeline, despite the fact that all that's truly left is a timeless abyss. This means that Frisk's speed is functionally infinite, as they can move just fine even when there is no time around with which to measure their speed. Frisk is even capable of harming Omega Flowey, albiet barely. It definitely appears that Frisk is not as strong as they are durable in this mode, as despite tanking attacks from Asriel, they cannot harm him.

In this amplified state, Frisk gains a few more useful abilities. At this point, they are capable of willing their soul back together upon its destruction, simply refusing to die. Furthermore, they can interact with the souls that Omega Flowey and Asriel have absorbed, turning them against their masters. They can even turn their own hopes and dreams into physical objects which they can absorb to heal themselves.

Having said all of that, Frisk's options are incredibly limited without DETERMINATION. They do carry a variety of weapons on them, yes, but those are widely an assortment of sticks and knives, weapons with pitiful range for the tier they're in. The best they have is the empty gun (which they can will into firing actual bullets) and the earpiece provided by Alphys, which can turn into a jetpack and allow them to shoot small lasers from their soul. The fact that they can simply RESET to try as many times as they have to also puts many of their greatest skill feats into question. Yes, they can outlast Undyne and Papyrus and Toriel, and even beat Asgore without any killing intent, but they had infinite tries to do so.

Their compassion is also a double edged sword. Integral to their greatest achievements, yes, but it also means that they will not fight unless it is absolutely necessary. The only times they ever threw a punch was when Asgore and Omega Flowey outright forced them to do so. Frisk is lucky, then, that they are such a gifted diplomat, able to reverse monsterkind's negative view on humans over the span of seemingly no longer than a day (though we are never given an actual timeframe for Undertale's events).

Frisk isn't a fighter, but their unending DETERMINATION ensures that they will overcome virtually any challenge that comes their way.

Analysis: Popeye

Popeye the Sailor Man is many things. An ever faithful boyfriend to his beloved Olive Oil, a combat hardened member of the navy, and the amphibious nonbinary sailor man icon we all deserve. No really, that happened. Look it up. But above all, he is one of classic cartoons all time heavyweight champions, on par with Bugs Bunny himself.

This little sailor had quite humble beginnings. After being born to the horribly named Poopdeck Pappy, Popeye was born horrifically ugly and deformed, prompting his father to run away in horror of what he had created. This caused Popeye to be adopted by the loving Whaler Joe, whom he'd look up for all of his boyhood years. Seeking to emulate his father, Popeye would join the navy, where he would learn to embrace his gift for violence.

Popeye had always been adept at beating the shit out of people, but it's only upon getting embroiled in World War 2, and competing with the loathsome bully Bruto for the fair Olive Oil's affections, that Popeye's skills would truly come into their own. This is because of the mythical miracle herb that Popeye had spent all of his life consuming known only as spinnach. Thanks to that, Popeye has an absurd level of superhuman strength, speed, and power that makes him among the toughest fighters in cartoon history.

Being a rubberhose animation icon, Popeye can freely morph and stretch his body like, well, rubber. He can inflate his muscles to huge proportions, stretch and bounce back at will to absorb blows, and inspire Monkey D Luffy with his cartoon antics. Again, look it up. Furthermore, he can completely break the laws of physics in the palm of his hand with ease. Whether by painting a battleship into existence, shooting fire out of his pipe to fly, flying normally anyways, or by turning completely invisible, Popeye is always capable of throwing out something you won't expect.

For example, one of Popeye's signature abilities is his power to punch so hard, whatever he hits is broken down into smaller elements. An anchor becomes a bunch of fish hooks, an animal becomes a steak stand, and racial stereotypes become even worse racial stereotypes. Use your imagination. That's another benefit to being from a rubberhose cartoon, Popeye's world is even more cartoonishly rascist than ours. Ah, 1940's America, how I loathe thee.

Moreover, Popeye's power may come from spinnach, but he certainly doesn't need it. He's eaten so much over the years, that he can still operate at a baseline superhuman level without it. Like that time God himself turned off the universe to kill Popeye and Popeye just... stood there and took it without blinking. And even if Popeye does need spinach for a boost, he can just will some into exist, either by waving his hand, drawing it, threatening the animator to give him some, or just letting the audience in the real world hand him some spinach when he's in a tight spot.

And if you think you can just kill Popeye before he eats any, you're dreaming. Because even after being completely erased from existence, Popeye's nothingness was able to eat a can of spinnach and come back good as new. Popeye's power is so great, not even his animator is safe, as Popeye is able to not only tear and break his own animation frames, but also beat the hell out of his own animator. Meaning he's more or less beat the shit out of two different versions of God.

So, if you dare choose to mess with Popeye, always remember who you're dealing with. You're fighting one of cartoon's all time heavyweight champions, truly a Sailor Man to be feared.

Throwdown Mashup:

Throwdown Breakdown:

Oh, boy, here we go.

First off, the fact that everyone here has such ridiculous regenerative and survivability options really does kneecap the effectiveness of a combatant's versatility. A lot of Kirby's copy abilities are complete dead weight when Frisk or Popeye can just regenerate from them and get right back to it. And while Oz's regeneration isn't as good, their plot armor and ability to just... become one with the entire universe at will (something which only maybe Popeye has the range to actually destroy) gives him a similar buffer. This means that everyone here will have to rely on specific win conditions.

Popeye can just transmute his enemies by punching them, so his fighting style isn't really going to be effected by this. Similarly, Frisk's go-to in character is to either wait out their opponents or talk them down, so not being able to kill their enemies doesn't really affect their approach either. It's Kirby whose the most kneecaped by this, as 90% of their arsenal is going to rendered moot, limiting them to just Friend Hearts and transmutation as viable win options. So while they can use Copy to gain abilities from their enemies, those abilities aren't really going to be much help long term. Especially because it's going to take everyone awhile to realize that everyone can just keep healing.

Oz is in a similar position, as he's pretty limited down to just his conceptual destruction if he wants to actually win here. No one present has any way to survive that level of existence erasure, Frisk can't reset if the very idea of Frisk doesn't exist and Popeye can't eat spinach if he, has a very concept doesn't exist. Furthermore, Oz has a lot of direct counters to the other fighter's abilities. Their resistance to mind manipulation should resist the Friend Hearts, they can steal Popeye's ability to interact with the fourth wall from him, and just steal Frisk's charisma from them entirely, completely nullifying Frisk's one win condition. Hell, Oz could just destroy the concepts of spinach or DETERMINATION to reduce them both to ordinary humans.

As such, I feel like this comes down to Kirby vs Oz. Kirby's small size, numerous abilities, and summons should give them ample opportunity to land friends hearts or transmute their enemies with a thrown star, so they and Oz have the biggest leg up over their competition.

Kirby cannot survive conceptual destruction and can't hurt abstract beings. They've simply never shown the ability to do so. Kirby has never punched the concept of Math in the face before. As such, they'd have to beat Oz before he can get that off. Since Oz resists mind manipulation, Friend Hearts are a no go and Oz is too big to fit in the pot so Cook is out too. As such, Kirby will have to throw a copy ability at Oz and transmute him that way to win. Time Crash won't give Kirby this opportunity because Oz has been unaffected by time crashing before, such as that time he turned off the universe or that time the entire game crashed and only he could act. And if Oz becomes one with the universe, Kirby's screwed because they've never been shown to transmute something that massive in scope before. Oz would resist all their abilities by virtue of sheer size alone.

While the free for all nature of this fight means that anyone can win and there are plenty of scenarios where Oz loses this, such as Popeye punching him into a puddle of ink or Kirby throwing a copy ability star at him immediately, Oz's more direct counters to everyone else's win conditions makes this their game more often than not.

In terms of who wins most often, I put at Oz, then Kirby, then Popeye, then Frisk. If only because Oz can just... steal Frisk's only win condition from them. Popeye is the only one with enough destructive capacity to actually do anything about Oz becoming one with the universe (being universe level and actually being able to destroy the universe are two different things in fiction and Popeye's the only one here whose arguably able to do both, depending on how you interpret the whole "destroying the animation cell" thing), and Kirby's size, summons, and mobility give them plenty of opportunities to land Friend Hearts and over win conditions. It's just that no one has any direct counter to Oz's concept summoning and destruction.

This Throwdown's Winner is...

Oz!

[spiritb0x]

I started watching Um, Actually and I love when the contestants just make up things when they’re asked to elaborate

[thepandalion]

no but like.... the musical has nothing in common with the books it's based on. and the movie is actually only vaguely similar to the musical. as someone who did watch both the musical and movie I absolutely think there's things to be spoilered about the movie, as, even though I listened to the entire soundtrack of the musical in preparation, it's still gotten some gasps of surprise from me.

like, sure, its an adaptation of a preexisting thing. but like.. that's the point of adaptations? some creative license is always taken. to the point where songs I held a mild dislike for in the musical are some of my favorite numbers in the movie.

not to give spoilers means not pointing out the various changes they made. which. they did make differences

[ijobcom]

By shopping through our link, you unlock exclusive deals and extra discounts you won’t find anywhere else. https://s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_EzJV4ql

[the-osborn-way]

Ghostface ranking please n thank you

OH MY GOD YES YES YES I LOVE RANKING ALL THE GHOSTIES

My ranking of all 15 Ghostfaces so far (yes.... I'm including Jason and Greg because if I don't, SOMEBODY'S gonna bitch about it I know--)

SPOILERS AHEAD FOR ALL 6 SCREAM FILMS

Rankings under the cut

Stu Macher (Scream)

The BEST Ghostface to ever Ghostface. A BIT underrated just because people will sometimes give Billy more credit. But like- hot man. Has no actual motive for killing, Billy was like "Hey, dude, let's kill people" and he literally needed nothing more. Thought up of some of the key parts of their plan, definitely gutted Casey and Steve, probably put Kenny on the van by himself (Billy wasn't around, so-) . Definitely top 3 or 4 strongest Ghosties to date. And the humor-- okay, I could go ON AND ON about Stu, but I'll stop here. Matthew Lillard really took the character from boring in the script to one of the only parts of the original film me and my mother (who's TERRIFIED of horror films and would rather forget them) remembered from our first watch when I was 13. (She said she'll never forget his laugh and that she hates him. ... She then got me a t-shirt of him not 3 weeks later for Christmas. Sorry, Mom-) Great job, man! Stu stole my heart, LOTS of my money, and a large part of my brain, so it's safe to say he'll always be my fave and an icon in my eyes. (Literally wearing my Stu shirt as I type this, what a fun coincidence LOL-)

2. Charlie Walker (Scream 4)

I said what I said. People either adore Charlie or despise him, and I love him DEARLY. Yes, he's very attractive, but on top of that, he racks up one of the highest kill counts by a single Ghostface alone in the entire franchise, beaten only by Roman, I believe. From Olivia Morris, which was obviously his kill, to tossing Rebecca Walters off a building, to Jenny and Marnie... definitely Robbie... Kirby... Kate Roberts... man just went crazy with the kills, and I respect it. He had loyalty, some great lines, a HILARIOUS deleted scene ( ), and he kept cool under pressure, never revealing himself until absolutely necessary. Do I relate to him? Yep. Is that bad? Probably, but I love him anyways.

3. Jill Roberts (Scream 4)

Another maybe controversial ranking, but I love Jill! I think her motive is fantastic, the way that she uses Charlie to get what she wants, and as someone who has acted innocent in situations where I'm definitely not, her acting is spot on. I never thought about it being her until her reveal, and it's still one of my favorites of all time. She is also, I believe, the Ghostface who got closest to the goal of killing Sidney and getting away with it, so congrats, girl! You had the whole world fooled till the hospital! She's a great take on what I think is the modern version of Billy Loomis, and she nailed the innocent act, truly. Did she kill anyone? Probably, but I can't think of anyone who I know is 100% a Jill Kill. Either way, good for her for not getting her hands dirty, or FOR getting her hands dirty! Impressive no matter what in my mind.

4. Billy Loomis (Scream)

Dont worry, Billy fans, he's still in my top 5! The only reason he's not my third is because I think he's just a BIT overrated. If the movies weren't constantly making him seem like he was the only killer and completely alienating Stu (I think there's a reason for that, but I won't explain that here), then I'd put him above Jill. I know that's a weird reason, but it's my reason. Billy is a fantastic manipulator who knew how to get exactly what he wanted from Sid, and also was a repressed drama queen, which I relate to a lot. While Stu was openly crazy, Billy hid behind the stone cold semi-facade. I don't think Billy would ever have gotten as crazy as Stu did, but he definitely showed the drama in several ways that make me smile and laugh every time. Falling down a flight of stairs? Fucking up Stu's couch cushions? Comedy gold every time. I give Billy credit for stabbing Casey, killing Himbry, and killing Tatum. I think the rest were Stu's because of the gutting and where Billy was at the time. I also think he killed Maureen, so a nice 4ish kills for him! Anyways, top tier Ghostie, another one I'll always respect respect and love.

5. Amber Freeman (Scream 5)

I'm gonna be honest, I hated her when I first watched Scream 5. Hated Richie too, but he's still terrible. Fuck him. I thought Amber was a trashy, third rate version of Stu that was extremely fake and her turn from cold to goofy seemed extremely forced. Then I took a deep dive and figured out why. (If you want a full explanation, let me know, I'm trying to stay short here.) So I believe that Richie is this movie's Stu and Amber is the movie's Billy. From her plans, her using the house, just her very cold, calm demeanor in the beginning, she just gives Billie energy, while Richie is just... well, he's the Netflix guy. He makes jokes left and right. But Amber, I think she was trying to be the Stu while Richie was trying to be the Billy. Everyone forgets that Stu was a boyfriend too, (Billy's) Tatum's boyfriend. Amber was supposed to be Tara's girlfriend in the original script. So now, I see her third act as more of her desperate attempt to look like her idol instead of sticking with the persona that served her well for the rest of the film. That really made me appreciate her more, and made her feel even underutilized, as did the Macher house. (I LOVE THAT HOUSE. I LOVE IT. Well, the actual actual house, not the Scream 5 version.) So yeah. Amber was a cold blooded killer trying to be just like the Macher before her, even if that wasn't the part she was meant to play in her movie. Taking credit for Dewey's kill? Absolutely. She was in the cult and she just wanted to piss Gale off by saying she did it. Fantastic lines, wonderful creep factor! Her death- *chef's kiss* Lovely homage to Sidney shooting Billy. And that's my top 5!

6. Quinn Bailey (Scream 6)

The only member of that damn family who did a good job killing. Richie included. Funny? Check. Didn't see her coming? Check. Ruthless? Double check. I don't think she did Gale's attack either, I think that just like Amber, she took the blame for someone else's work just to keep them hidden. Besides that, she was a good character, someone you thought was long gone until she wasn't. Bonus points for her saying Stu was her fave and definitely being the one to stab Mindy on the subway. Maybe not the greatest Ghostie ever, certainly low on kills, but I enjoy watching her a lot.

7. Nancy Loomis, aka "Debbie Salt" (Scream 2)

Another hidden killer who deserved more screen time after her reveal, and more backstory. I love her motive of "good, old-fashioned revenge", and I can see her killing Randy out of rage. Killing Mickey? Nice way to keep things in her favor! Debbie Salt was eh. Don't remember her much tbh- I would've liked to see Nancy more as herself, she just had great potential. Did she take some kills? Absolutely. Got her hands dirty to honor her son. But that's what I don't like. She leaves Hank, then suddenly after Billy dies, she's like the best mother ever?? Killing for the son SHE left?? Her leaving is the reason Scream happened, paired with Maureen and Hank's infidelity-- that's why she's a solid 7 in my book, and the best of the worst. Only goes downhill from here, folks.

8. Mickey Altieri (Scream 2)

GREAT in the Act 3. Other than that? Um... he was okay, I guess? He had some funny lines, but where I really like him is in the possibility possibility of what he's done. He definitely killed for Nancy, he was insane and just wanted people to see him that way. He DID talk to Matthew Lillard in the background of the sorority party... Mickey and Stu working together?? His Act 3 was good, he showed he could be a good Ghostface, scared Sidney, killed Derek... but that's where this ranking and my positive comments about him stop.

9. Wayne Bailey (Scream 6)

Classic parent who wants revenge, angry, pulls it off decently. He has some good moments, funny, a definite suspect, and nowhere near as good a cop as Dewey. Points for trapping the Core 4 (minus Mindy) and Kirby in the second coolest location in the franchise, but that's where my positivity stops. Sam killed him easy, he was a shit parent until Richie died I bet. Did he get his kids to murder? Oh yeah, I think he's the one who made this whole plan up with Quinn and Ethan's help. He doesn't really stand out. Did he kill?? Even wear the fucking mask?? I honestly don't think so. I would put him lower, but compared to the next three... yeah, he's fine at 9.

10. Richie Kirsch (Scream 5)

WHYYYY. WHY. The only goof thing I can say is that like 5 of his lines made me laugh, and he also hates Stab 8. Me too, dude, that looks BAD. Motive? Pretty good, solid movie motive, getting with Sam to get the job done. Ruthless? Yeah. But he's sloppy. He's a Stu without the magic, just trying to make a movie. Him dating Amber?? *vomits* KILL ME NOW. He was 100% manipulated by her, I know he was. A sad attempt of Billy Loomis that leaned more towards Stu, and his cheesy shit throughout the film made his "true colors" seem kinda dull and not very scary. I don't like him. I don't.

11. Ethan Landry [Bailey] (Scream 6)

Like father, like sons!- all in my least favorite 5 of legitimate Ghostfaces. How much screen time did he have?? Not enough. Innocent guy, "I was in Econ!" to "HAHAHA I'M INSANE NOW!!"? I hate it. His transition was too forced, he was bland and stupid, his attempts at faking his knowledge about everything were embarrassing and made him look worse as a character. The easiest Ghostface to spot. I don't know, I mean I get people like him because he's insane and attractive, but I don't. Sorry to all of you who love this guy and his family. His best scene? When Tara stabbed him in the mouth. You go, queen!!

13. Roman Bridger (Scream 3)

Fuck. FUCK. I hate him, I hate this movie, I hate it all. His motive is pretty solid, I actually like it a lot... but he was stuck up, whiney, and underutilized. Like Ethan, low screen time, unbelievable shift from loser to villain- did he even share a scene with Sid?? Talk to her?? And this makes Billy and Stu look like lackeys. I HATE IT. I would've much rather had the Stu leading a Ghostface cult film, but I know why they went this route instead, and I respect that. Like Ethan, the best part about him, and of this movie, is his death. Dewey missing his head like 5ish times before finally hearing Sid and going for the head Thor in Endgame style?? Comedy. GOLD. I love Dewey Riley. But yeah, I just don't like Roman at all. His strengths are his motive, his INSANE kill count (I think he had an accomplice.), and his physical strength. Besides those? Useless. Sorry, Roman die-hards.

14. Jason Carvey (Scream 6)

Not bad for a Ghostface killed in the first 15 minutes. He had the makings of a good killer, definitely in the cult, but his time was just extremely short. Nothing much to say about him, but his only kill was a fantastic start to the film. I would put him higher, because I think he WAS a good Ghostface, but... 10 minutes or less of screen time? Sorry dude, don't know you well enough.

15. Greg (Scream 6)

Who?? Saw him a fridge. That's it. What's his last name, I don't remember- No screen time, not even alive on screen. Nothing more to say. He was probably pretty good though, if he was anything like Jason.

And there's my ranking of all 15 Ghostfaces!! If you want to add your own, feel free to below! If you wanna comment on mine, please be respectful, but I'd like to know why you don't like characters I do, or like ones I don't. If your faves are my faves, share!! I love finding new Scream buddies!! And thanks for listening if you made it this far, that was LONG.

[s0nia246]

Something I did for fun. Radiance/ Y/N's stats for if she was in Shrek 2 the video.

Her special is basically Ayato's Burst from Genshin Impact

I love this game. 😊

[neshatriumphs]

And if I remember the books correctly, it was even LESS likely in the original series 😂 I love it when fanfiction goes above and beyond

Haven’t seen the new Wicked movie yet, but I am forever impressed by the fact that someone saw the “Wizard of Oz” and was like:

“Hm. Yes. I see. Okay. The wicked witch and that scarecrow? They’re in love for sure.”

“The witch who sets him on fire?”

“It’s a complicated situation.”

[ddullahan]

absolutely THRILLED to see people getting into the subtext of Wicked, discovering just how much gay history is packed into the entire Wizard of Oz franchise - AH it gives me the warm fuzzies

[maxwell-grant]

I think it’s interesting, considering how most live-action superhero adaptations kill off the villains after their debut, that both The Batman and The Penguin end with the villains not just living, but set up to return and somehow cause Even Bigger Problems down the line. Is this just because it’s the first Batman film adaptation that’s a capital-F Franchise, so the writers need the villains to stick around long-term, or is something else going on?

Almost entirely comes down to the fact that The Batman was not meant to be Batman's origin story - by Reeves' own admission, it was the origin story of the Rogues Gallery. They got the Cloverfield and Dawn of the Planet of the Apes guy and he did a story about the boots-on-the-ground gritty perspective on larger-than-life terrors emerging from the ruins and failings of human civilization, taking the struggles and wars and laborious processes that others shy away from and putting them front in center. It's just this time, instead of kaijus and parasites attacking and destroying the city, instead of apes emerging as the Mad Max warlords rising from the ashes to fight over the world, we have Batman villains in that role instead.

To me, that was actually the conception - if we weren't going to do a Batman origin story, but we were going to do it in the early years, I thought well, in the comics, the rogues gallery characters often are creating their alter egos in response to the fact that a masked vigilante shows up in Gotham called the Batman.

And so I thought, oh well, what we could do is see all of the rogue's gallery characters in their origins, like Selina Kyle before she's Catwoman, and that we could go into, as we're looking for a suspect, we could go to a nightclub, a nightclub could be the Iceberg Lounge and we could see a pre-kingpin Oz, and we could see, you know, a Riddler who is declaring himself the Riddler sort of because there's a Batman. And so all of that was sort of built into the conception. - Matt Reeves

It's far from the first Batman film adaptation to be a capital-F Franchise, even if that aspect was there - Reeves initially pitched the movie as an HBO series, and throughout production pitched additional show ideas such as an Arkham show or a Gotham PD show, The Penguin being the only one that survived as far as we know. This pulls off an origin from the Rogues Gallery better than every other Batman media ever made, and there's a couple of reasons why it does so and why the villains get to take center stage here:

Part of the difference between the way Nolan tackled realistic Batman, and the way Reeves tackles realistic Batman, is that Nolan needs realism to explain Batman, and Reeves needs realism entirely in the service of making Batman weirder. Pattison Batman is the weirdest Bruce ever put on film almost entirely because he lives in our world while still being Batman in every way that counts - Keaton Bats slept upside down in a cave, but he lived in a Tim Burton world. Adam West Bats is weird, but everybody is like that or even weirder than he is, he is the comedic straightman to everyone else. And where as Nolan needs Batman to be the thing that makes sense, Reeves needs Batman to be the thing that doesn’t make sense.

Nolan wanted weird difficult irreducible villains opposite a logical pragmatically sensible Batman, and Reeves wants exactly the opposite. For Nolan, even besides the Joker who was defined entirely around the lack of a real explanation for him, you have his take on Two-Face, Bane, the Al Ghuls, characters that don't demand that much reasoning or explanation because they can act and exist in ways that defy logic, while Batman's the guy who has to hold the center of logic and reason. Where as here, Pattison Batman is the most interesting and complicated and larger-than-life figure this world is dealing with in much the same way that Ledger Joker was for his movie, and everyone else is in the position of starting out and having to deal with Batman and the paradigm shift he brings - nobody else in the movie is quite the character they were supposed to be, that's something they're all growing into in response to their nightmare city and what this titanic freak in armor represents to them.

Even The Riddler is ultimately explainable, human, reducible to his tantrums and vulnerabilities, even without you knowing in-depth his character and backstory that would be elaborated for Dano's Year One. Even The Penguin - he may be larger-than-life, he may be unexplainable on some level, but we know all too well all of his failings and feelings and life story and all the cracks in his persona that he killed Victor to try and bury. But Batman? Next to everyone else, he is still an anomaly, he is just Like That, even to his own detriment and that of the city, and he learns that he must apply being Like That to something better.

Reeves is not interested in doing "Batman vs [X]" movies, the movies are going to be focused on Batman's arc first and foremost, which means the villains will never really take them over the way they've usually done - this is a world where it's the villains who react to Batman, not the other way around. This frees them from the burden of having to exist in direct relation to how much they can directly menace Batman, and it makes it so that these are characters that can carry their own spin-offs, which is probably a lot easier for WB to work with because these are spin-offs that they don't really have to get Pattison to show up for, but they can construct in ways that don't even need Batman to be physically there. Even after The Penguin, they might not have to do that Smallville/Gotham song-and-dance of teasing a main character who'll never get to be here, there are a lot of other things happening in Reeves' Gotham besides the existence of Batman, even if the existence of Batman has changed all of them. So structurally speaking this series has a ton of room for reocurring villains, and building it has been one of their top priorities. In fact, this ONLY gets to do so because the movie already laid out the entire groundwork for them and how it all ties together.

See, the way Batman stories do the rise of a Rogues Gallery and how it affects the city and therefore Batman always follows a sort of a 7-step program:

Gotham City is ruled by crime, crime that takes away the Waynes (Falcone / Carl Grissom (89) / Falcone backed by the League (Nolan) / the Falcone-Hill-Wayne triumvirate (Telltale) / Gotham S1 and first-half of S2)

Crime begats Batman, who beats Crime

Crime + Batman = Weird Crime (Jack Napier becomes Joker after an encounter with Batman (89) / "we still haven't picked up Crane and those other Arkham inmates btw check out this weird card" (Nolan) / Black Mask and the international assassins + Joker's rise (Arkham) / Children of Arkham (Telltale) / the Indian Hill experiments and patients (Gotham)

Weird Crime Replaces Crime (The Long Halloween / Joker takes over the mob (89) / the mob is so impressed by the pencil trick they give Joker all the money (Nolan) / Joker literally replaces Black Mask in the process of becoming Batman's main enemy (Arkham) / Penguin assassinates Mayor Hill and the Children enter a war with Mayor Dent (Telltale) / Indian Hill breakout and Maniax cult and etc (Gotham)

Weird Crime is a Rogues Gallery now (Penguin and Catwoman and Max Shreck in the sequel (Burton) / Joker and Two-Face become separate problems, Bane + Talia + Crane + Catwoman in the sequel (Nolan) / after Origins a whole asylum full of them (Arkham) / Riddler + The Pact and John becoming Joker proper (Telltale) / Gotham S3 with Tetch and Riddler and the Legion of Horribles

The city is changed by the new paradigm

Batman responds / expands or retracts in response to this change

(4 and 5 don't necessarily always happen one before the other, mind you, frequently you do have a Weird Crime Rogues Gallery before Weird Crime replaces Crime at the head of the table)

And you can apply this to most other Batman stories that don't automatically start and stay at level 5. But where as all of these have to stretch the process across sequels and continuations, The Batman is the first Batman work that gets to do all 7 of them in one row. It gets 1 and 2 done offscreen before the opening act and shown to us how they happened throughout the movie's reveals, 3-4-5-6 comprise the Riddler's plot + the other United Underworld members roped into it, and it ends with 7. Even the Batmanless spin-offs follow the process: The Riddler: Year One covers Eddie's perspective on 1-2 as he enters stage 3 and prepares it for the movie, and The Penguin covers 4-5-6, leaving us waiting for Bruce's response back to stage 7 where The Batman ended.

And up until The Batman, the process behind the creation of a Rogues Gallery had never really been much of a process - comics that go into the transition like Long Halloween/Dark Victory just show the fall of Carmine Falcone -> the freaks waiting in the wings causing it or happening immediately after. Gotham tries to work that escalation gradually and it starts relatively "normal", but it's always dancing around the premise and the central black hole and the building blocks don't have anything to do with each other - the gang wars and Penguin have nothing to do with Bruce investigating a conspiracy, which has little to do with Gordon and Bullock investigating weird serial killers who keep escalating, and then eventually we get that Hugo Strange was building freaks in his basement at the orders of the Court/Ra's the whole time until they all just escape. You can piece together how Batman works that aren't about this transition ultimately touch on most of those 7 stages and have their own version of it as soon as they introduce Gotham City in a pre-Batman/pre-villain state, but the connections are always rather tenuous and not necessarily connected to each other (and it's fine, y'know, not everything in a story always has to come from the same source).

But everything in The Batman follows a long chain of dominos that had to happen for this system to become the way it needs to be for Batman villains to emerge. Everything started in that one night Thomas Waynes saved Carmine Falcone, everything started from that ensuing connection and Thomas' failures leading to a city ruled by mobsters for 20 years and the sheer level of rot and corruption and human misery that creates and justifies the existence of Batman, and thus The Riddler in his example. Everything we get in The Penguin is the result of this paradigm shift and total civic collapse, showing the destruction of Carmine's empire as well as his legacies torched and mutated by Sofia and Oz respectively. Everything is still connected. The United Underworld guys featured in the movie live and dwell in entirely separate spaces and represent entirely different things, and they're still all connected in the same chain of dominoes, which allows them to expand and cover entirely separate narrative real estate while still giving it all cohesion.

The movie never has to specifically establish a system full of supervillains or made for them, it has to establish a system so utterly fucked and dominated by Falcone, so utterly failed by every institution and body of government and system imaginable, that it creates Batman, and the minute Batman arrives and survives long enough to be a third power / a fifth state, people in his wake trying to respond to him or do the same things he does, as a response to the same afflictions he faced and to his example or influence, are the only logical thing. Without needing to literally show the other rogues waiting in the wings, The Batman established an entire world of possibility just by very smartly using the 4 big ones + Carmine and showing why and how this regular American city becomes a place where supervillains bombing city blocks and running for political office can become a facet of daily life. Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and Riddler - positioned as separate from each other as possible to show the ways in which this is, and maybe always has been, spreading fast out of Batman's control.

And now with The Penguin, reinforcing the chokehold of crime in the city in it's old ways as well as the corrupt mutated new ones brought on by our boy, as well as a new Batman Villain (possibly two, if Eve Karlo ever gets her hands on suspicious make-up) arriving from Penguin's side of things so that it's not just Batman who has a Rogues Gallery to deal with, not just Batman who has terrific enemies waiting in the wings for a chance to enact their own forms of justice and revenge, no, that's just what life is like in Gotham now, forever.