#other ppl also refer to main guy as being her princess which is just beautiful to me

[camels-pen]

a princess and his protector

[redteabaron]

Different anon… Here is the thing though, Drogo/Dany isn’t a parallel to sansan. People who make that comparison either lack severe reading comprehension, which is not surprising for this fandom, or they want to use it to validate sansan. (Tyrion was the older guy Sansa was forced to marry. Dany and Sansa have opposite journeys and their marriages are a part of that.) But sansan’s mirror is Jorah/Dany. Book!Jorah is an older guy who has a creepy obsession with a teenage girl. He dumps his trauma on her, he projects onto her. But he is also her advisor, her confidante early on, his protector. There are also the same BaTB elements sansans love to talk about. She even refers to him as her bear. But he was lusting after her ever since they met and then he assaulted her. He forced himself on her. She is uncomfortable with his actions, but she doesn’t possess the necessary language and she doesn’t understand consent (we know this because of how she frames her relationship with Drogo but also how she expected Lhazareen women to be ok, even be thankful for being married to their rapists, and her dubcon relationship with Irri) so she recontextualize what happened and chastise Jorah for kissing her not because she is a teenager and he shouldn't and she didn’t consent to but because she is his Queen. That's the language she has, so she expresses her discontent, disapproval, rejection with that. Sandor was verbally, psychologically, physically abusive to Sansa but he also occasionally protected her in King’s Landing. He lusted after her, made sexually inappropriate comments to an 11 year old child but he was also the only one in KL to have honest conversations with her. Then he assaulted her, held her at knife point. She was afraid of him kissing her, killing her, she had nightmare about the assault which she clearly registered as a sexual one despite what his fans claim his intentions were. Sansa has a habit of romanticizing/redefining these things. Sansa thinks Arys Oakheart was preferable, that he was kind because he beat her less hard than the other Kingsguard. She remembers Tyrion as someone who were kind to her, someone better than Joffrey even though he molested her and she had him in her nightmares too. She separates Littlefinger and Petyr in her mind because just like with the other men before him the thought of her sometimes-protector at the same time being her abuser is too much for her. Just like Dany she recontextualizes what the Hound did to her and turns the assault into a song to cope with it.

These two pairings has the same dynamic, the difference is fandom’s response to it. (The slight differences are that Dany had actual amiable feelings for Jorah -not romantic love or sexual feelings but friendly, sisterly love for him- and she as a Queen had a lot more agency than Sansa as a prisoner had. She isn't as powerless as Sansa, she could have easily banished him, punished him, even ordered his death.) But no one in fandom writes essay after essay why and how could and should Jorah and Dany end up together. It’s an outrageous suggestion. Dany is a main character, she is the heroine. She is a Queen. Why should she ever end up with someone as lowly as Jorah? Someone as old, as ugly as Jorah? But Sansa, meh she is not an important character. And she needs to be punished, first because she was a child making childish mistakes. Secondly, she is shallow, she refused to be raped by her older, ugly husband. So she needs to end up with an older ugly guy to humble her. Even when the author expressed his distaste of the trope of a noble girl running away with a lowly guy in medieval stories, nah that doesn’t matter here. Sansa being of high nobility, a princess won’t have any factor at all who she’s gonna end up with. They had to keep assuring themselves that she is not a main character so she could even end up with a villainous character, that she is not a Stark so she could end up with people who hurt/fight against her family. The hypocrisy of this fandom, and their selective reading is most clear when it comes to these two “couples”. Almost all sansans (whether it is the actual shippers or those who think it’ll happen because well it’s Sansa what else she’s gonna do besides being a reward bride for some hideous guy) hate Jorah/Dany (as they should) while trying to justify how and why Sansa should end up with the hound. Let's forget the abuse and pedophile, let's assume those never happened, even then it makes no sense. There is not a narratively satisfying way, a logical reason how Sansa could be with Sandor. But they ignore all that because it doesn't fit in with their vision, with their interpretation of the books and characters. Because admitting Sansa is a main character and more than a reward for their pedo fave has a ripple affect, it challenges all their theories, they all crumble. And they just can't let go of their 2 decades old theories, they just have to be right, they must be right. That's why they all took the show's ending as a personal offense, especially the QiTN Sansa. I just can't wait for the books!

Yeah, agreed. jorah and sandor are mirrors of each other. I mean I hope they both die without any glory or honor, personally. I don't really care if they have sacrificial deaths for the greater good - or whatever framing the show had intended - jorah and sandor were also whitewashed and made more pitiable/likeable.

Whenever dany x dr*go is used to validate literally ANY pairing, I am suspish. In particular when we acknowledge that dany absolutely couldn't consent - she was 13 iirc - and was sold off by her abusive brother to a man twice her age, but Sansa reimagining her trauma about Sandor's assault to something less traumatic is considered being hateful to Sandor because he's unattractive. (And I never really listen whenever ppl give me shit or deny it was assault; pertaining to my job, I'm pretty fucking aware what assault or intention-to-assault looks like, and I think most ppl do to, they just seem to lose awareness when it comes to their ships or certain characters).

I think it has to do with Sansa being the archetypal "Pretty Popular Girl" - the one who like feminine things, sort of fussy, likes feminine colors and just in general is feminine. She seems to remind people of the classic mean popular girl we saw popularized in 1990s-2000s high school movies - the one who gets her comeuppance in the end when the non-feminine girl somehow triumphs in whatever way, or she's the one who learns her lesson and stops being quite so feminine, or hooks up with a most-popular guy. The Mean/Pretty Popular girl has to be humbled in some fashion. Fans who don't like her, tend to view this as a way for her to pay for the error of her ways.

Like being a prisoner of war. Or not wanting to fuck tyrion. Or not wanting to run away with sandor.

I mean...all of asoiaf, beyond the politics and magic, is all about trauma and the human response to it - which is varied and depends on circumstances, personalities, and a lot of other things. One of the more vile things GOT did was whitewash jorah and tyrion the way they did imo. Jorah was a predator, circling Dany, regardless of whether she thought of him fondly, he just happened to not be violent towards her - she cries when he forces a kiss on her. Tyrion was a predator who molested her when he acknowledged she was a child "but he wanted her anyway". I've seen a lot of ppl react more sympathetically towards Dany. I haven't seen much recrimination against dany for refusing him the way we see sansa being hated for not wanting tyrion or sandor, hell, even petyr.

But - Sansa, imo, in the larger or at least circles of the fandom that have been around longer, is a more ideal whipping girl for the outlet a lot of ppl crave. See again the popular girl trope. She can't fight, she has no magical creatures, she is not a Chosen One of any kind. She has her wits and her ability to observe and adapt who has no choice but to navigate survival surrounded by people who have more agency and power than she does. That's it. I guess in a world of amazing abilities and magic and warfare, this is very boring, particularly when she doesn't weaponize her femininity or sexuality, where she's beautiful without being dangerous or magical or erotic. And I guess ppl feel that because of that, she needs to be punished for not being as extraordinary as she should be, OR, because she was the "Mean Popular Girl" (she wasn't) she must be humbled, and the ones to do it are the ones she refuses.

It's really delicious knowing they don't get "to have her" 🤢. Hopefully they just both fuck off to the ends of the world or die, idc they deserve zero thought.

[shenmeizhuang-blog]

Do you have any cdrama suggestions for a baby beginner? I think Empress of China is the most famous one I’ve heard of but I’m curious about others too!

B-baby beginner? No, my friend, when it comes to cdrama, we simply throw you into the pit…

Just kidding! Although, for a myriad of reasons, being a Chinese drama fan outside of Asia without a hold of the language is admittedly rather difficult (so to the “international” cdrama fandom: you guys rock!). 

Unfortunately, your answer did not really help me narrow down my answer after all. I believe Moonlight Drawn By Clouds, your recent fave, is very romance-centric, but I feel like everyone tends to vacillate in their mood, preferring super romantic escapism one minute and demanding tight storytelling the next. Anyway, I’ll stop rambling and actually get to the point:

personal recs, in general*

I just couldn’t really “categorize” these?

peace hotel (2018): currently in the midst of watching this still, but I’m really enjoying this! honestly. especially with how the female chars (most of the chars are written.) it’s this mix between super suspenseful espionage and really cathartic humor. the plot twists are also so !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

let’s shake it! (2017): alien crashlands to the tang dynasty! it’s super cute and quirky, but there’s also a strong, coherent plot and some angst in the latter parts. definitely one of my faves of last year, though it’s punny sense of humor doesn’t always get through. it’s also very appreciatively meta ;) the subs apparently aren’t complete, as my friend complained to me, but I personally find the language real simple

medical examiner dr. qin (2016): the interactions between the crime-solving trio are gold. also, like the only modern show here?? (as you can tell, I am really mostly a period show watcher.)

go princess go (2015-16): it’s really low-budget and cracky, but trust me, there’s a reason it went viral. zhang tian ai does feel like the saving grace a lot of the time though, and I didn’t exactly give it a high score, but it just might be your thing. who knows?

nirvana in fire (2015): i don’t think it’s the best c-drama ever, unlike a lot of people on this site, but it’s still a very solid show. I also find it a lot more shoujo than most fans—it’s really not just a revenge-political drama—but when it was emotionally gripping, boy, it was emotionally gripping. 

wuxin: the monster killer (2015): technically only season 1—I have yet to see s2—but weirdly enough, I found the poignant ending especially fitting. just assume from the title? yue qiluo is one of the more interesting villains out there, and gosh I just adore yueya so much

bu bu jing xin (2011): extremely poignant, complex look into polymagy/patriarchy during the qing dynasty from the lens of time-traveller zhang xiao who takes the identity of court lady ruoxi. even if you don’t ship any of the romances, it is so worth it for pretty much everything else. but if you do, obviously also an extremely heart-wrenching watch. a lot of people’s first cdrama. 

schemes of a beauty (2010): lots of spying, secret chambers, poison, women control the men. 

*I would want to recommend The Legend of Zhen Huan and The Glory Of Tang Dynasty, but they’re 76 episodes and 92 episodes long, respectively. Content-wise, it’s also stuff that requires lots of trigger warnings, and overall just not for the “baby beginner”. Battle of Changsha is definitely shorter, and a definite recommendation, but also just not for the “baby beginner.” 

no dubbing 

(Peace Hotel, Battle of Changsha, NiF, Medical Examiner Dr. Qin)

the advisors’ alliance (2017) + growling tiger, roaring dragon (2017-18): a mix of no dubbing and some dubbing. it’s a pretty creative to take the viewpoint of sima yi in this three kingdoms historical piece. I feel that it’s rather accessible to viewers, honestly, and the production values are great on this one. 

nothing gold can stay (2017): only 4 eps in—it’s very solid so far (74 eps though, but I would say quite mainstream and easy to watch)

ten miles of spring wind can’t compare to you (2017): do I really want to rec this though? in the end, I really did wish I had someone to vent about this to and discuss with about, because in a lot of ways this really did give lots of food for thought. let’s just say that our three main chars are deliberately rather fatally flawed…and I still feel rather ambivalent about how to feel about this. (the first 10-15 eps are super cute, meta, adorable but also with great sexual tension and then it sort of goes to melodrama but anyway…) you could at least practice your chinese? it is harder than the average modern cdrama, given how pretentious qiu shui can get

shoujo period romances

We all have a soft spot for these :’)

sound of the desert (2014): just yesterday, there was quite a lot of discourse on this show on my dash, interestingly. female lead xin yue (liu shi shi) is raised by a wolf pack, though she eventually enters the capital city sometime during the han dynasty. she does at first fall for a crippled, broody flute player played by hu ge (imo one of his more lackluster roles) but it’s her chemistry with HAWT general wei wuji (eddie peng

female prime minister/legend of lu zhen (2013): again, freakishly sizzling chemistry. it focuses more on lu zhen rising up the ranks as lower-level female ministers, but mostly still very very romance-centric. (the otp falling-out in the last 10 eps or so was kind of stupid, I will admit, and also 200% all on gao zhan but it had such a strong addictive quality to it.)

gong/jade palace lockheart (2011): I haven’t seen Boys Over Flowers/the Japanese original/any official remakes of whatever that is, but a lot of people have called it Boys Over Flowers + modern girl time travels to the Qing Dynasty + 9-prince succession conflict during Kangxi’s reign. it was rather stupid and petty at times, but it’s more comedic and the romance is super addicting. I don’t care about the half-bald Qing queues at all, and this is actually one of the only roles that I’ve found Feng Shaofeng attractive in. (yes, it is possible to love bbjx and enjoy this)

Oh yeah, and all these end all happily and fairytale-like. None of the above would qualify as my “faves” at all, but all are very accessible to someone unfamiliar with cdrama and love the Romance and the Pretty. 

others (I found rather lackluster or dropped): Perfect Couple, The Eternal Love (very popular among international audiences, but not for me), General and I, Oh My General 

wuxias/xianxias

This is just going to be an embarrassing amount of childhood nostalgia. Like, literally, with the exception of the first one, I watched all of these in elementary school, with varying amounts of rewatching in between. The recent wuxias and xianxias just haven’t been to my liking. (I could get into how NiF takes lots of wuxia elements but I would just confuse you a lot so, strictly on the more fantasy/action side of things here.) I simply haven’t watched Eternal Love/Ten Miles of Peach Blossoms (very, very popular) at all. I’m sorry. 

vigilantes in masks/strange hero yi zhi mei (2011): I believe the international equivalent is “Iljimae”? It’s like Robin Hood, sort of, but mostly Liu Shi Shi’s Yan Sanniang is so amazing here. 

chinese paladin 3 (2009)

return of the condor heroes (2006)

chinese paladin (2005)

lotus lantern (2005)

also 武林外传, which is 80 eps, but kind of more like a wuxia sitcom way back in the day. there’s in-show ppls, tons of modern references, etc. and also like lots of satire/social commentary. I did a rewatch (of brief clips ofc, I don’t have that much time) recently, and realized I missed so much when I watched it with the family back then. (I’m kind of embarrassed about the more lewd references…lol…)

*line break*

Whew! Anyway, the takeaway is, there is a lot of stuff to choose from, and I definitely left out a lot of stuff. There’s also a lot of modern cdramas. This answer might clarify about those shows. 

(that being said, I really personally would not recommend empress of china. I mean, aside from 96 eps, just 2 eps in I could tell it was going to be an unsubstantial mess >_