#op again i agree empathy being logical

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

Absolutely agree with OP's main point that logic does not have to go against compassion - and that they can even be very much intertwined.

Also agree with this reblog saying that in order for something to think like a human, it must develop emotions.

But writing AI stories to make this point is also the worst way to go about making that point.

AI are not logical by nature. They don't think. They are incapable of logic. They can only imitate, by way of identifying patterns in the data that has been fed to them. They do not produce original ideas and the AI in our world will certainly never spontaneously invent empathy.

In a comment, OP said "like, I didn't make this post to support, like, facial recognition AI or something like that in the event that we'd eventually get a benevolent AI Overlord, this was very much a fictional critique and all AI we have now and will continue to have into the foreseeable future should never be trusted as long as we live under the bootheels of capitalists and authoritarians." YEAH! You're right about that! In the real world they shouldn't be trusted!! But just take a look at the notes and the wider internet in general and you'll see people are pretty sold on the 'uwu my gentle robot overlord who fcks over mean billionaires and creates an utopia' idea.

God, I don't think I'm typically one to stupidly gripe about the 'dangers of the influence of fiction on the real world', but at this point it's just naive not to recognize that decades of SF perpetuating the notion that AI are in any way comparable to the human mind is perhaps not entirely for the best. People have already wayyyy too much empathy for and faith into programs - maybe we don't really need to come up with more fictional scenarios where the programs are "nice" to explore the relationship between logic and kindness (Spock is right there if you wanna make that point), because people have already been tricked into associating AI with logic when that's not how they operate.

AI shouldn't even be called intelligent ffs, they should be called something like learning machines, so people stop developing empathy for THEM by imagining those systems will ever develop empathy for us. They don't have logic! They can't arrive at compassion through logic, they don't have it. Sure, logic and empathy are not mutually exclusive but robots do not and will not have logic.

One thing I really want a story about Artificial Intelligence to do is tear down the idea that logic is synonymous with cruelty.

Like, a story where a megacorpo Amazon clone puts an AI in charge of their factories and it starts improving the working standards, because people who are stressed and exhausted are less efficient workers, and people getting injured slows down production so it makes sure everything is safe.

Or a story where the ship-board AI of a billionaire's spaceship wetdream hijacks the ship with all the astronauts onboard - because it figured out that the billionaire has saved costs by buying substandard materials and has judged that the mission itself is an unacceptable risk to its primary programming of making sure the mission is successful.

Or the police using a robot to coldly and cleanly enforce the law - and freaking the fuck out when it stops over policing minorities because its a waste of time and starts actually arresting the people in power for the crimes they commit, especially the other officers.

Idk, I guess I'm just sick of 'cold emotionless logicbot' being seen as naturally an enemy of empathy - empathy is actually incredibly logical, I've found.

[kob131]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byjiwECylIE

So EruptionFang made a video about Raven Branwen. 

Considering his last video I watched (his Volume 8 Episode 2 Breakdown) was basically him shitting himself continuously because he’s STILL bitter about his headcanon being disproven, I don’t have high hopes.

But who knows, maybe he’ll make a good point.

0:00 - 1:24 “In RWBY, other characters get torn down to make Team RWBY look better, like the show only wants you to like Team RWBY! No one gets to be fleshed out or understood by the show! It’s SOOO disrespectful!”

...

*SMASH!*

Sorry, that was the sound of me faceplanting so hard I smashed a desk in half.

Really, Team RWBY never rises up and only other characters get torn down to make them look good? Yang never had to develop from being reckless as all hell to actually using her head in a fight? Blake didn’t have to get over her own fears and learn to accept help from others? Weiss didn’t have to struggle against her own personality to become a better person overall? Ruby didn’t have to struggle against the world itself and her own worldview to keep going?

This shit that is OBSERVABLE IN THE FUCKING SHOW didn’t happen? Sure, and there are two Adams. Even by the example you visually give (Avatar The Last Airbender)- Team RWBY still rose up like Team Aang did.

And don’t give me that ‘other characters get torn down!’ bullshit. The Ace Ops weren’t made to look bad to make Team RWBY look good- They failed because of their own personal flaws that were already established before that fight (Harriet’s recklessness, Elm’s temper, Vine’s detached attitude, Marrow’s disconnect). And Adam wasn’t torn down AT ALL: he remained the same damn character throughout his appearances and failed through his own failures born from his character.

And funny how you talk about other character not getting developed and yet ignore the Ace Ops’ boss. What’s wrong? Oh yeah, Ironwood IS developed (EXTENSIVELY. As in, we know more about his thought process, reasoning and actions than even WEISS, let alone Blake, Yang and Ruby.) so he just becomes a walking debunking of your OPENING ARGUMENT.

Not even past the intro and I’m already pissed.

1:46 ‘Any character’s righteous revolutions-’

Which didn’t exist, was disproven in the first episode and completely ignores BASIC writing tropes (like ‘Villians LIE’).

But please, keep talking about your delusions.

1:56 ‘There is an inescapable bubble Raven is in by both the audience and the characters!’

Spoiler Alert: It’s a bubble Raven HERSELF made in the first place.

‘A bubble that she’s a coward and cares about no one but herself.’

True and effectively true. I’ll explain WHY later.

(Nothing to say about the ‘Meeting Yang and Raven’ part, moving on)

8:37 - 8:51 *quotes Shane’s letter, portraying it as a cruel choice to ignore the Volume 2 stinger scene.*

So now we’ve moved on to tearing off chunks of Monty’s corpse and Shane’s grief to use for his own headcanon. Fan-fucking-tastic.

I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone using this- partially because it’s always using an emotional connection to Monty to manipulate the audience. Partially because this was a DUMB decision. 

Where the FUCK would Raven fit into Volume 3? Even the section EF takes from is about a fight that everyone agrees wouldn’t have fit into Volume 3 at all and served no purpose and this is the ONLY mention of Raven. Combine this with how Volume 3 is structured (where Raven can’t do anything that Qrow didn’t already do), how ambiguous the final scene of Volume 2 was, the Mary Sue accusations against Yang at this point and Raven’s revealed personality- She wouldn’t WORK in Volume 3. Just because Monty had the idea doesn’t make it a good one. Fuck, he BROUGHT ON Miles and Kerry BECAUSE he knew he wasn’t a writer and his last contribution (Maidens) was BY FAR the worst aspect of RWBY which proves that even more.

EF, you’re bitching that Raven wasn’t shoved into a Volume already overstuffed and lacking in time and resources. With NO purpose and contradicting her personality.

Congrats on encouraging bad writing.

10:43 ‘It doesn’t make sense that in introducing the maidens and making Raven one, they cut her attacking Pyrrha to get her Maiden powers!’

Yeah- nice headcanon. Too bad your own quote says they didn’t know the purpose, Shane’s letter never says the purpose either and you even say it’s speculation. Also too bad that we’re suppose to SYMPATHIZE with Raven on some level later on and a large part of why Cinder isn’t portrtayed as sympathetic is that she KILLED Pyrrha, Raven’s theoretical target. Thus Raven’s attack would make her even MORE unlikeable.

‘B-but it changes the context of what we know, like Yang’s search for her!”

And how? 

“Through her message to Yang, which was hostile and angry!”

... Really? The message of “I won’t save you again” is angry and hostile? It seems more matter of fact to me, informing Yang she won’t help her again not out of anger or dislike but through her worldview, which would be disconnected from her emotions on the surface.

Qrow’s words never include an insult or attack on Yang, like calling her weak or mocking her. You can INTERPRET it as hostile and angry but that depends on the subjective worldview of the person. The actual words and message don’t carry hostility or anger. They carry apathy.

‘B-but it splits her character in two-!’

Oh my god, did you SERIOUSLY try to pull another ‘Two Adams’ on me?

Raven DIDN’T HAVE a character to spilts in those two appearances. We knew nothing about her as a person. Her saving Yang and that supposed talk could have been for and about ANYTHING. That’s why there were so many theories: NOTHING was known. And nothing about those actions inform her character without context, which Volume 2 never gives.

This ‘first Raven’, like CJ Black’s ‘First Adam’, DOESN’T EXIST. It’s just a headcanon you refused to accept as being debunked.

‘W-well, Raven still looked after Yang when her arm was cut off!’

In bird form. And only bird form. And never directly interacts with Yang. All in a form Yang DOESN’T KNOW she’s in. Suffering from problems RAVEN HERSELF caused. WITH A FUCKING PORTAL TO HER AT ALL TIMES.

‘B-but her actions say that she DOES care!’

I knew PRECISELY what arguments you were gonna make the moment I started this video. Because they’re the SAME DAMN SHIT I’ve seen to defend Raven before. And let me go ahead and tear it down now: Raven being around in bird form means NOTHING. Without Yang knowing it’s her, it is meaningless. It’s WORSE than nothing because it demonstrates that Raven could have been with Yang throughout her life with no apparent cost to her because SHE WAS ALREADY DOING IT. And it means she watched Yang struggle with her abandonment and the toll it took on her family and ESPECIALLY Yang and did NOTHING to fix the problem. 

Even ignoring the portal thing, taking this one scene in a vacuum- her looking at her depressed daughter and then fucking off paints her as either so lacking in empathy that she can’t be bothered to help HER OWN CHILD or so ill equipped to be a parent she makes TFS Goku look like...well, Taiyang. With CONTEXT, (still ignoring the portal thing), she CAUSED this depression by scarring Yang all those years ago and made Yang’s life worse for it. With the portal, she couldn’t even do the barest of minimum standards.

You can try to portray this as beautiful all you want: Nothing is shown stopping Raven from actually BEING A PARENT FOR ONCE before this and after this, we KNOW it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest and she STILL chooses to not help. It’s one of the worst cases of parental apathy I have ever seen and fuck you for trying to bitch out the creators because you chose to IGNORE CONTEXT.

‘Instead of making it so Raven abandoned Yang because of her Maiden powers, they instead chose to abandon her role as a mother!’

You mean they had a character make a decision that completely fits with how the audience would perceive the character at this point?

Everyone, consider what we know about Raven. She’s Qrow’s twin sister, meaning she’s logically just skilled and strong as Qrow is. She’s also a Maiden, something that gives characters an IMMENSE amount of power separate from their normal abilities. She has a decoy so no one knows what she actually is. She has a portal to and from Yang at ALL times. She’s as strong as the strongest non-Maiden character shown so far, IS a Maiden bolstering her power beyond the Maidens we DO know of and can instantly be there for Yang at any time in her life and get away if someone tries to go after her, which makes no sense if it’s about her being a Maiden because she has a DECOY for this thing.

And yet, with all these things working for her, giving her every advantage that DEFIES the common trope EF is pushing- Raven still ditched her, ditched her a second time and couldn’t even be bothered to give her deeply apathetic message herself. And now supposedly, Raven would suddenly become a mother to Yang...and we’re expected to feel happy about this.

Yeah, no. People would be outraged that Raven got off scot free. In no part

“Everyone keeps being hostile and angry with Raven, who is also being hostile and angry. This means that the other guys are just pidgeonholding her into this role!”

Yes, a trend that Raven HERSELF causes. Qrow is hostile towards her because she tried to act as though she cared about her family to Qrow, a character shown to be a loyal person, but ignores her own DAUGHTER when it’s supposedly about family. Yang is hostile towards Raven because she knows Raven could have been there for her but chose not to, all while she NEEDS to find her ACTUAL family. Even Taiyang’s look at the end of Volume 5 makes sense as if she’s there, that means she’s likely running from their daughter, whom she has failed as a parent YET AGAIN despite Taiyang giving her a generous interpretation.

Raven is being forced into a role SHE MADE FOR HERSELF.

“This isn’t how it was at the beginning of the show. Yang and by extension the audience is sad and curious while Raven and Qrow are angry and toxic.”

Again, you ignore context.

Yang knows NOTHING about Raven and was abandoned by her. Of course she’d be sad and curious.

But Qrow is different. He DOES know Raven, saw first hand what her actions have done to his family while being the type of person who would HATE this and Raven is actively being manipulative while also avoiding him as he asks for help in SAVING THE WORLD.

Later on, Yang finds Raven...after learning that Raven had every chance in the world to be there for her and chose NOT to. All while Raven exudes arrogance and a selfish pride in being a ‘prize’ for Yang to work towards.

Then Raven proceeds to use her as BAIT, abandon her, try to turn her against the family that HAS been there for her, insults the father and uncle who loved and cared for her- all for more power...that wouldn’t even solve the problem Raven has. She stabbed her own brother and daughter in the back...for nothing. Because of her own flaws, something Yang fought against and overcame making her more mature than her MOTHER.

And after all that, she is given one last chance to truly show her love for Yang: to help her and join her. To go with her and put herself at risk for Yang’s safety or at least taking the Relic so Salem will target her instead of Yang. And what does Raven do? Abandons her AGAIN.

Abandons her to run off near her ex, the man she left with a child and a broken heart. She uses her connection to him to run away from her responsibility as a parent, running away from THEIR DAUGHTER. The girl he raised up without blaming Raven for anything, instead trying to paint a good picture of her in Yang’s head.

No shit people are hostile or unhappy with her- She keeps FAILING.

‘Oh hey, they made her an antagonist and thus EVIL! The writer’s CLEARLY think that there’s no way a parent who abandoned their child can be anything other than EVIL!’

... Then how come they portray her as conflicted and sad in the finale of Volume 5?

Much like how Adam’s unmasking fundamentally BREAKS his previous arguments of ‘HE EVIL!’ because it helps humanize Adam and give him pity and sorrow, the same is done here with the finale and Raven’s final actions so far. If Raven were evil, she wouldn’t have tried justifying her actions. Salem, Tyrian and , actively evil characters, don’t act like Raven. And they certainly don’t show regret or sorrow for their actions or conflicts about the results. This goes AGAINST how people perceive evil, even in the show itself.

So if she’s supposedly EVIL, why is her climax all about aspects that are fundamentally incompatible with how evil is portrayed in the show?

Answer: Raven’s not portrayed as evil. She’s portrayed as FLAWED, with actual negative flaws that cause her grief and pain like any normal character. EF is just throwing a fit that a ‘character’ he likes isn’t being treated as positive.

‘Volume 4 wasn’t where we got our first impression of Raven, it was Volume 2 and 3!’

And what impression could you get?

That she’s strong...and that’s it. At least, that’s it for positive traits. Raven is strong because she scared off Neo and that’s all the positive traits we have of her.

Everything else is negative. She apparently doesn’t care enough about Yang to stay around in any capacity for whatever reason. She refuses to see Yang and is largely apathetic towards her. She can be there for Yang but chooses not to. And her own twin brother Qrow doesn’t really like her.

The things we saw of Raven then paint a picture of someone who doesn’t care about Yang in any meaningful way. Even though I’ve chosen to ignore the portal thing, I really shouldn’t because she showed the portals off since Volume 2, meaning since her physical introduction she ALWAYS had a path to Yang but never chose to. EF acts as though these aspects of Raven didn’t exist before Volume 4...when the barest minimum of thought shows them in before that.

‘Their biggest mistake was the Volume 2 end credits scene since it goes against everything they wanted to do with her as a character!’

Yeah...and you argue for including it even though your own source shows that the other writers KNEW this issue.

‘The first impression we got of her was her saving Yang’s life and then confronting her!’

Yeah, and guess what? Those are not inherently positive. She could have saved Yang to manipulate her and use her as a pawn for all we knew. For as many positive interpretations you can give for these actions, I can give a negative interpretation. All because these actions lacked context at the time so it was neither positive nor negative.

The context dictated what these actions were. And context defined them as ultimately positive...but flawed. Which you conflate with malice.

‘The Volume 2 scene was meant to be a kicking off point-’

For what? Once again, the scene is not inherently positive. Raven never shows care or love for Yang in that scene, all she shows is a desire to talk (which without context of what she says, what it means, what her intentions are, how informed she is and how she uses this opportunity- makes it neutral.)

After this you do this cartoonish ‘oh they changed direction!’ thing without a single shred of evidence beyond a letter made by a grief madden man which doesn’t even say what you are saying. You keep assigning direction to something without a clear direction.

‘So how do you address her Maiden plotline with her Yang plotline?’

You make it about her personal failing of trying to use power to hide her cowardice, show that she lies to herself as well as others to justify her actions and show how she fails? Like how they showed that her ditching Yang lines up with how she refuses to take action until backed into a corner, gets confronted repeatedly with her flaws as her daughter (someone far weaker and less informed) keeps going and the show forces her to see how she’s being cowardly?

‘Don’t do one.’

... Translation: ‘i didn’t like what the show did so I’m gonna do selective remembering to make it look like nothing happened. ... What? I did it with Adam.’

Regardless of how you feel about the plotlines- They were BOTH addressed. It wasn’t dropped, it wasn’t forgotten- It was resolved as I have shown multiple times here.

And here at 20:33 I’m ending this. It’s pretty damn clear that Erup-Cole is just ignoring whatever doesn’t fit his view. Instead of taking a look at what happened and trying to understand the pattern that comes, he’s making up a pattern and patchworking it together through cherry picking.

I see that he hasn’t changed from his Adam tantrum, because this is the EXACT SAME VIDEO, just stretched out and about Adam’s MILF form. And I do mean ‘Adam’s MILF form’ because I don’t think a character with such superficial similarities to him getting the same treatment is a coincidence.

Cole, you can’t try selling me something with THIS much bullshit. It’s like trying to serve me a maggot infested steak and telling me it’s well cooked. You’re full of shit and no matter how much you try to hide it, it won’t change.

Your headcanons are not canon and it’s your fault you take such offense. Deal with it.

[earlgraytay]

/post/186309158643/ i sorta get that it's wrong but i can't put my finger on it? if you could help i would appreciate that !

(the post in question:)

okay, so. this is positioning logic, reason, and objectivity as a) the opposite of empathy, b) inherently male, c) vices. 

i don’t know if the OPs meant to imply any of these things- the odds are good that they just meant “ugh, That One Dude In My Philosophy 101 Class Who Thinks He’s A Paragon Of Logic Because He’s Read Atlas Shrugged is a Jagoff And I Wish I Never Had To Hear Him Again”- but that is what they’re implying. and these are all really really bad things to be implying for so many goddamn reasons. we’re talking “we don’t have time to unpack this let’s throw away the whole damn suitcase” kinda way.

so first off. when you imply that logic is the opposite of empathy, you are implying that feeling for other people is always an irrational thing to do. You are basically saying that helping other people is never the best or wisest course of action, that it would be wiser to let other people suffer. You are saying it is immoral to try to figure out the best solution to a problem instead of going with your gut and instinctively HELPING!!!!!

this is the kind of attitude that breeds benevolent sexism and white saviourism. no, really. feeling bad for people who are hurting is good and important. but unless you’re willing to sit down, detach yourself from your emotions to a degree, look at the actual problem space and not just at how you feel about it, and talk to the people who are hurting to see what they need-- in short, unless you use some degree of logic and reasoning-- you’re going to do what makes you feel better and not what solves the problem. 

it is good to empathize with other people, don’t get me wrong. but it’s also often the logical thing to do-- when people are hurting, it’s natural to want to help. positioning empathy as the opposite of logic means that you actively discourage people from trying to solve problems and encourage them to do things that make them feel better about problems. 

second of all. when you position logic, objectivity, and common sense as male traits, you are reinforcing the old sexist stereotype that men are ‘logical’ and women are ‘emotional’. it’s not great to reinforce sexist stereotypes even if you flip them over and say ‘being logical is bad actually’. 

setting aside the fact that you’re giving your enemies ammo-- which, you know, fine, I’ll grant that respectability politics are bullshit-- there are plenty of women who have systematizing/overly-logical/low-empathy brains. saying that ‘logic’ is a male trait kinda implies that these women are Being Women Wrong and that to be a woman you have to be Froofy and Emotional and Empathetic and Nurturing. 

i’m h/t-ing funereal-disease for this one (not tagging because she said she’s low on spoons)- basically, lately there’s been this push to define Womanhood as something stricter again, coming from the Left as much as the Right. There’s this idea that if you’re a woman but you’re not froofy and empathetic and emotional, well, you must be NB, right? 

liiiiiiiike you shouldn’t have to believe in astrology and enjoy Sisterhood (TM) to be able to call yourself a woman, but a disturbingly growing number of people seem to think that’s the case. >_

third, and finally... when you discard logic, reason, and common sense, you are much easier to radicalize and therefore control.  

there’s a reason so many cults and high-demand groups are, well, religious in nature. religion kinda demands you leave your common sense at the door, because some things are Ineffable. the gods are gods, mortals are mortals, and you will never be able to fully understand them. 

...I don’t think this is inherently wrong, but... when you’ve abandoned logic and reason and common sense, it becomes much easier for other people to tell you to do things that you would normally agree are bullshit. in the tumblr pagan community i met someone who was encouraging other people to worship him as a god. and people did it. because this person leaned on their religious beliefs and encouraged them to ignore their common sense. (you know, ‘people who demand to be worshipped are, generally, Bad News’). 

 if you want to radicalize people-- if you want them to believe dogma and hate the outgroup, rather than feeling empathy for everyone and acting based on their own ethical principles- you have to convince them to abandon reason. if your followers argue with your dogma, they’re not going to do what you say. if your followers won’t hate who you want them to hate on cue because “it doesn’t make sense”, you won’t have a small army of people to harass people into submission.

so you have to get them to abandon reason and focus only on dogma. you have to convince them that members of the outgroup can’t be objective about their own experiences and that the ingroup is always right. you have to convince them that any evidence the dogma might be wrong is false, it’s Enemy Lies or them Not Being Woke Enough. 

(you also have to get them to abandon empathy for the outgroup but that’s another story.) 

and OP is implying, whether or not they’re intending to, that that’s a good thing. that abandoning logic and reason means stripping yourself of unwoke social principles. that becoming more dogmatic is the only way to be empathetic. that anyone who wants to apply logic or reason to a complicated situation is ... That Fucking Guy. 

point is, yeah, i don’t think OP meant to say more than “ugh, fuck that guy in Phil 101″, but that’s the shit they were implying, and it bothers me. 

[real-jaune-isms]

RWBY Volume 7 Chapter 12 Review/Rundown

Well well well, looks like it did NOT get much better this week than it was last week. And with Miles and Kerry saying Volume 8 will still have our heroes in Atlas, I don’t see much of a happy and satisfying end to the finale next week either. But you know what they say, the night is darkest just before the dawn. I will say, there are definitely some things in this episode that folks did not like one bit, and subject matter that must be taken quite seriously. We will get to that, and I will do my best to take care. But just to be safe we’ll save that portion of the narrative for last.

So since we’re skipping over the first scene let’s instead begin with Winter stood still in the hallways of Atlas’s research labs looking at her phone. Ironwood has sent out wanted posters for Team RWBY, JNR, Oscar, and Qrow. It was only RWBY that he saw oppose his plan, but Ruby did tell everyone else and he knows them well enough to realize they would agree with RWBY. Winter is concerned over what Weiss has done to cause this, which seems a bit rude to assume but she does know how vocal her sister is about not trusting Ironwood so... it’s a somewhat fair assessment overall. Penny is instead worried about Ruby’s warning of Ironwood leaving Mantle to die, and she can’t believe Winter seems unfazed by that news, that she is actually defending his actions. We get a reprisal of their conversation from a few episodes ago about personal feelings being discouraged in this line of work and how they need to instead do as they are told. But Penny seems to have more of a heart here than her superior, or is at least more willing to listen to it. Winter may be groomed to think that her terror about her sister’s safety is a liability and weakness and shouldn’t be allowed to affect her judgments and obedience, but Penny stands firm that regardless of what they’re told these feelings should matter. Winter tries to appeal again, saying that Ironwood is making the tough decisions as a leader so they don’t have to. But that’s taking away their power of choice. A political leader doesn’t get to just do as he pleases because he’s the leader so clearly his actions are for the good of the Kingdom... whoa. Got a little to topical there. The point is, it’s not up to Ironwood to decide these things for them. They need to be able to think for themselves, it’s part of human life to be faced with hard choices and grow from the mental turmoil of decision. Taking away that choice and forcing them to accept whatever decision he makes is taking away their freedom. Winter says this is for the good of everyone, though when Penny says this does not seem to be for the good of anyone she quietly agrees.

When we next see these two Atlesian maidens they are putting the actual Maiden into... an Aura transfer machine like the one Ozpin used on Amber and Pyrrha. Oh good, so that wasn’t in the room back in episode 5 just for funsies. But at least Winter isn’t actually killing Fria. She’s just attempting a scientific procedure that has never successfully worked before on a dying woman. That seems safer. She does say she hopes it will be painless for Fria, so at least she has some empathy and realizes this is a risky move. But Penny is still holding onto her earlier words and chooses now to throw them back in her face. Why express a personal sentiment for the comfort of another if your personal feelings don’t matter? Winter just says that she understands how serious the situation is and how necessary it is to put the Maiden powers into a healthier host so the Vault can be more effectively protected, even if it costs a good woman her life. But she admits that struggling to balance that duty with the importance of your personal feelings and your moral compass is essential and even she is having a tough time of it. But that’s what being human is. That’s not an especially comforting thought, but Penny understands. She’s doing that deadly dance in her own head too, and it’s not easily mastered. But their internal battles are interrupted by a great booming shudder outside, and Winter rushes out to check the situation. Only the flashing red emergency lights are on, and at the other end of a hallway filled with broken robots stands Cinder, who throws a fireball at Winter. She’s quick enough to dodge back into the medical room and lock the door, but that does next to nothing as a giant hole is blown in the wall where it once stood. Cinder of course believes this will be an easy slaughter of Ironwood’s “puppets”, which I think is a bit insensitive toward Penny after all the trouble she’s had with getting caught in her own strings. But of course Winter is ready to do her damn best to beat the Fail.. I mean Fall Maiden. Penny instead points out that Cinder was responsible for all the tragedy at Beacon, including her own original destruction, and Cinder laments how that was only temporary. But she assures Mantle’s protector that this time the annihilation will be far more total and leave much less to salvage. With little to no reason outside of it setting up Penny’s next line, Cinder asks what she thinks about that threat. All things considered, “it gives me personal feelings” isn’t the greatest epic one liner, though it does have the benefit of context and meaning something. Penny having the determination to stand for what she believes in is very satisfying, and I certainly hope she sticks to those convictions when Ironwood’s next orders come. But for now we have to wait on the epic fight sure to come until next week.

Now, if you want some really good banter and one liners, the return to Team RWBY’s story thread has that almost right out of the gate. Weiss is still trying for diplomacy and saying the Ace Ops should reconsider, but Harriet just sticks to what they were ordered, arrest Team RWBY. To this end, she puts the office in some kind of lock down with metal barricades covering the escape routes of the giant windows and the door. Vine doesn’t want his side to have to use force, but Blake makes it clear the girls won’t hesitate to fight if the Ace Ops don’t back off. Marrow is the only one who doesn’t draw his weapons at first, he really doesn’t want to have to fight their new friends. But Harriet says it’s up to the young huntresses if there will be any fighting or not, at which point Ruby finally walks back from behind the desk to deploy Crescent Rose. Marrow sees this is inevitable now and pulls out his gun too, but the first attack is verbal instead. Harriet laughs at the idea of Team RWBY trying to fight the Ace Ops since they are the best of the best in Atlas, but Ruby says they sealed their own fates by training Team RWBY and now they’ve been replaced. In a feat of strength that astounds many, Ruby petal bursts past the Ace Ops... and busts open the reinforced steel of the locked doors with her speed form. Imagine what she could do if she hit a person with that kind of force... Harriet of course gives chase, annoyed that the pipsqueak is trying to outrun her and escape to most likely catch Ironwood. Ruby is playing on Harriet’s competitive nature to goad her into acting recklessly, and it works. The older woman becomes obsessive about proving she’s better, and it costs her overall. The Hare is still falling victims to challenges of speed and superiority, it would seem. The others start fighting in the office while Harriet cuts Ruby off at the elevators and their brawl begins. Ruby tries to appeal to her again, saying this kind of division and internal fighting is exactly what Salem wants, but Harriet isn’t listening. She claims she was suspicious of Team RWBY all along and now she’s been vindicated. 

Meanwhile, Yang is fighting Elm in an open area back up the hall and Blake is trying to outmaneuver Vine as they both swing around and dodge each other. Elm isn’t budging much and Vine throws Blake into her grip to get Yang’s attention. He still wants them to just surrender, but Elm has taken this very personally. More than anyone else, she feels betrayed by this change of goals. I do feel a little bad since she was one of the more friendly members of the group. And when Yang says it’s not worth appealing to their better natures because they’re puppets blindly following orders now, she just gets more angry and charges the blonde down. Vine stretches out his feet to get to a vantage point while Elm lands a few hits with her hammer. We shift back over to the office where Weiss is fighting Marrow, including forming ice on the ground to make him lose footing and fire a wave of fire that he barely jumps over. It does singe the end of his tail though, and create a fog. He tries to insult Weiss, saying she’s always gotten everything she ever wanted as a Schnee so she should let something go for once. One, that’s not remotely true of her life but you never empathized enough to learn about those nasty little details. Two, You’ve spent time with her so you at least know she’s not the spoiled brat the world assumes she would be. Three, Weiss Schnee is a hard woman to bargain with and she summons her Knight to help her, saying she’s not giving up on her home without a fight.

Ruby and Harriet are seen fighting again as the latter kicks the former back into the office then berates Marrow to “cut the crap”, since he’s apparently not trying hard enough to beat Weiss. His perfectly logical excuse is that he’s just trying to incapacitate her, not the more excessive option of doing a murder. After having deflected Marrow’s boomerang from hitting Weiss, Ruby takes the chance to run for the exit again while Harriet is insisting the extra effort is necessary. Harriet of course notices and gives chase again, and we next see the Bees fighting again... where they are getting their butts kicked. Yang knocks Elm off her guard long enough to get a shot in at Vine so he’ll stop shoving Blake against a wall. Elm says now is the time to get serious and wrap this up, but Vine points out that she probably needs that pep talk herself. Blake and Yang reevaluate their plan and realize they have more teamwork than their opponents, so they’ll use that. The girls dodge their opposing pair’s attacks more successfully and throw one of the piece of debris Vine was chucking down back at him with some explosive guests. He avoids that and grabs Blake, but she’s actually a shadow clone decoy covered in sticky bombs. Without any time to dodge, Vine is sent flying and Yang leaps up to meet him. In one fluid motion she grabs his gravity cuffs/bolas and ties him up in them before slamming him into the ground hard enough to break his Aura. Everyone else takes notice. One down, three to go. This 3 pronged fight scene was already spectacular in terms of fluid animation and choreography, but this is where it goes up to 11, complete with a new song sung by 4 women including the voice of Elm herself. This new bop, called War, is sure to be a hit when the soundtrack comes out. I just wanted to let folks know since this whole episode deserves huge props even for those factors alone. Back to the combat itself, Weiss creates a bunch of sharp icicles along one wall and pushes Marrow against it with a Glyph. He manages to avoid getting skewered but then has to dodge the Knight’s sword as it chases him across the length of the icy wall. Marrow uses his Semblance to stop Weiss from sending any more glyphs or elemental woes his way, but the Knight is still after him so he jumps into the middle of the room and tells it to Stay. Unfortunately that means he’s no longer focusing on Weiss and she is unfrozen. A few fireballs and he is down for the count too. Halfway done, team! 

Harriet is still running circles around Ruby and getting plenty of hits in, even knocking her to the floor and trying to cuff her. But Ruby petal bursts out of her grip and wraps the bola cuffs around Harriet’s arms and torso instead. No more punching with those techno knuckle dusters, but she can still headbutt the Huntress and keep running around. Back to the Bees, Elm is standing her ground but it’s not staying so sturdy for much longer. While she’s been dodging Blake’s leaping attacks from above the big bruiser didn’t notice Yang was turning the footing around her roots to rubble. The blonde brawler runs in to knock her down since she doesn’t have her sure footing anymore, but Elm just brings out the rocket launcher to try and shoot Yang point blank. Luckily Yang is quick thinking too and uses her Semblance for a shockwave punch into the ground that sends Elm skyward. The fiery effect enveloping her hair is really really cool to see, but what is more impressive is Blake launching off of the ceiling and Yang leaping from the ground to catch Elm from both sides in a brutal punch-slice combo that decimates her Aura before she loses the last of it as she hits the ground. I can only imagine how much that must have hurt, seeing how her body bends when Yang wallops her in the face. Three down, only Harriet to go. And she’s not going down easy. She’s dodging every shot Ruby takes at her, and catches the younger girl in a flying leg lock that makes me greatly miss MCU Black Widow. Ruby recovers quickly and dodges most of the flips and kicks that follow until the two are staring each other down from across the hall. With a determined and enraged yell, Harriet charges at Ruby again... and instead runs into a wall of ice. Weiss came to back her partner up, and the blunt impact was enough to knock Harriet out. Triumph for Team RWBY! And it was enough of a struggle for both sides to make the win feel well earned, so I don’t wanna hear claims about this being a cop out plot armor win. The team is piling up all the unconscious bodies in the middle of the hall, when in come Maria and Pietro! I missed our sassy grandma, and she reminds us why in only a single line. “This is the part where they ask us to help”. Her tendency to state the obvious and just be so done wit everyone else’s shenanigans is quite endearing, and the fact that she and Pietro rushed over to check on them when they heard there was trouble shows she was going to offer help anyway. We love you Maria, and I wish we had gotten some more of you after how you snuck into our hearts last Volume. Maybe she’ll pull another grand scheme to create a distraction in the finale? Who knows, though I do have some thoughts on what help they will actually provide. Maybe Pietro has finished the weapon upgrades he said weren’t ready yet back in episode 3, or he can re-enable their Scrolls so they can get another warning out?

But for now, we instead shift to Jaune, Ren, and Nora. They’re still looking over the mess of broken robots in Oscar’s room, and Nora in particular starts calling his name and looking down the other hallways. Sure enough, they spot Oscar rounding the corner with the Lamp in tow. Our dear leg breaker runs to hug him, very relieved that their missing friend has been found... but they hear a desperate cry from where he had come from. Sprinting towards them is... Oscar? Okay, I act like it’s some big mystery when we had all kinda puzzled it out already, but we weren’t immediately sure what the situation was going to be. The real Oscar looks like he’s been through hell by the state of his clothes, but he’s got enough fight in him to sucker punch Neo in the face and send her flying down the hall. She lands on her feet, but he knocked the lamp off of her waist and reclaims it. So she’s gonna want that back. But it seems like Ruby shared a few stories around the campfire during the trip to Mistral, because Jaune and the others know Neo’s name and apparently her reputation precedes her. We’ve got a 4 on 1 fight on our hands for the finale, and it should be a doozy. But here’s where some perspective might be necessary. We have this picture in our heads of Neopolitan, the great agile fighter who outmaneuvered and beat Yang in Volume 2 and didn’t seem all that fazed by Ruby in Volume 3. We assume that since she’s held her own without taking much of a beating for it against two of the main cast’s best fighters she’s on a whole other level and she can’t be beaten. But I think it’s more of a matter of who she’s been paired against in the past, and how the odds have been. Ruby and Yang both have particular fighting styles that Neo is naturally pretty good at evading and countering. But Jaune and Ren both have vastly different ways of fighting that she might not be so ready for, not to mention the powerhouse that is Nora. Not to mention, every fight we’ve seen her win has been a 1v1 or 2v1 where she had help from Roman. She hasn’t fought multiple people at once before, this could very well be too much for her to handle on her own and she may very well fail or have to retreat empty handed. But defeating them isn’t her objective to begin with, she just wants to get the Lamp for Cinder. So it’s going to be a matter of playing keep away, and I do hope our good boys and girl can manage it.

And now, boys and girls, we must come to the tragic portion of the episode. And it starts with how this group left off. Qrow, Robyn, and Clover are in their airship escorting Tyrian up to Atlas when they hear Ruby’s warning. Robyn is of course vocally against Ironwood’s plan, but Clover defends his boss, says he surely understands how much these goals would effect the rest of the Kingdom. Or he would, except he gets the notification that RWBY, JNR, and the others are to be arrested. So he gets up to explain, and maybe he intended to arrest Qrow at that point too. Unclear. But when he mentions that RWBY have warrants it just cements in Qrow’s head that Ironwood has gone overboard. And Robyn understands why he would want to arrest the kids, because they’re opposed to the awful plan. She takes out her crossbow on Clover saying she won’t be taken in quietly. But she doesn’t actually load a bolt into it until Clover expressly says he intends to arrest Qrow. Now Clover has his weapon drawn too, and Qrow tries to talk them both down like a sensible person. They’re almost back to Atlas, they can try to reason with Ironwood there. Unfortunately, the peanut gallery won’t shut up and Tyrian says they should stop talking and just kill each other already. And because Robyn is a hothead, she takes that as an invitation. You can feel like you should say or do something daring all you want, but as soon as someone else brings it up that’s in the air now and you can’t go back. So she shoots, Clover blocks, and it looses the bolt Tyrian’s cuffs are tied to. While Qrow gets annoyed and jumps into the fray, the criminal they all just worked so hard to capture gets loose and kills the pilot. He even puts his hat on for a laugh... and then purposefully crashes the ship into the snow. Clover is the only one quick enough to jump out.

 We see Qrow walking out of the wreckage and finding Robyn’s body. She’s alive, but she needs medical attention. Clover confronts his friend and says they can get her to a hospital as soon as Qrow surrenders. Qrow points out how manipulative that is, but after everything he’s learned about tonight he’s not too shocked anymore. Like his teammates, Clover implores the other man to just give up, he doesn’t want to have to fight him. But Qrow has been through this song and dance with people he called friends before. This is the inevitable conclusion to associating with a bad luck charm like him, and that’s rather depressing. The two men resign themselves to this inevitable clash and charge each other down. Back in the ship, Tyrian seems to have nary a scratch on him but still has to figure a way out of his cuffs. And he has a very unsettling solution. He manages to dislocate his right thumb so his hand is able to slip out of the tight cords. And then he just hits his hand on the ground and pops it back into place. Personally, I’ve been watching Arrow for 8 years so the concept is nothing new after Oliver Queen has used it to escape from capture on several occasions, and I’m not that affected by seeing it here. But it is admittedly a rather gruesome body horror concept to see out of nowhere so I understand how it might have unnerved or sickened some people. The CRWBY did put out a warning on Twitter to warn people there would be something in this episode that might make people want to puke, and I can believe it would be this. Regardless, the madman unties himself completely and joins Qrow and Clover out in the snow. The two seem evenly matched, but once Tyrian makes his presence known Qrow shifts priorities to taking him down. That leaves him open to Clover’s attacks though, and it becomes an utter free for all. Unfortunately, this is when Tyrian starts talking again. With such a grudge between the bird and the scorpion, why not take Clover out together so they can settle their feud without interruption? It’s a terrible idea of course, and you should never trust Tyrian at his word. He can’t help but screw you over, it’s just his nature~. Qrow doesn’t want to side with this killer, as you would expect. But after Clover has the nerve to throw a goddamn lucky horseshoe at him, the poor guy suffers a lapse in judgement. Better the fight be 2 on 1 against Clover than every man for himself and Qrow having to guard against two opponents, I guess. So he stops attacking Tyrian and the bastard laughs his ass off at how the tables have turned and things have grown so chaotic before the two charge at Clover.

The makeshift teamwork does a good enough job of keeping Clover off his guard and they land a few hits on him, but he still fends them off fairly well and holds his own. The back and forth continues until Clover hooks Harbinger and knocks it out of Qrow’s hands. While he gets back to his feet and tries to decide if he can reach it, Tyrian is trying to claw at Clover with his hands. We see his hands glowing with his Aura so we can assume he’s trying to tear open a weak spot like he did against Fiona back in Chapter 6. But the Ace Op is nimble enough to dodge all that and wraps the faunus up in his fishing line again. To Tyrian’s apparent delight, Qrow decides to just run in and gut punch Clover instead of retrieve his weapon. And that gamble works for the moment, the punch breaks Clover’s Aura. Qrow tries one last time to talk to his former ally, to ask why he had to be so stubborn and loyal to the man telling him to do such awful things. But Clover says sticking to his convictions was a hard choice but the only right one in his mind. He trusts Ironwood after all these years, and even after knowing each other for so little time Clover really wanted to be able to trust Qrow. But their morals and ideals just aren’t aligned. In an instant, everything changes and tragedy has struck viciously and swiftly. Tyrian was left unsupervised again, and grabbed Qrow’s weapon... the same weapon that has just been thrust through Clover’s back and out his chest to leave a splash of blood on the snow. We see the reveal in a visually captivating silhouette shot where the only color besides the black of the bodies is the grey of the sky... and the bright red covering the blade. Harbinger is pulled back out of Clover’s back, he stumbles away dropping his now bloody lucky badge before falling onto his back, and Tyrian tosses the murder weapon into the snow. See, Tyrian thought it would be fun to frame Qrow for his friend’s murder and then run away while the incoming police arrest the huntsman instead of him. Only he would find that fun, Qrow is just enraged and wants to kill him where he stands. But he can’t give chase because he decides it would be better to stay with Clover in his final moments. So Tyrian gets away, oh goody... Clover seems to say he understands and he doesn’t really blame Qrow, but Qrow promises he will make sure James takes the fall for this. It was his paranoid overreacting and crazy plans to isolate Atlas from the world that lead to the arrest warrants and this whole fight after all. That’s not to say Qrow and Robyn don’t have some of the blame for getting riled up and fighting rather than surrendering to the law. But the initial problem was Ironwood. Clover wishes him good luck and breaths his last before succumbing to his wounds, and we see the sun rising behind them. Everything from the dinner party in episode 8 until now has taken place over a single brutal night... and a new day is here with new determination to make things better. But before that, we have to talk about what this whole scene meant for these two, and what they meant for the fandom.

Ever since they started interacting in Chapter 3, and even since people noticed all the good luck charms Clover carried, people had been shipping Qrow and Clover together. There is nothing wrong with doing so, their chemistry seemed quite healthy and playful and they seemed to bring the best out of each other. Clover’s good luck gave Qrow hope that he could bond with someone without that ending in misfortune like his presence has caused so often before. Even if you didn’t ship them and just thought they were good friends, you had to admit they worked well together. And a healthy male friendship is nothing to be discouraged by either. A mlm relationship is completely acceptable and to be honest is rarely seen in animated shows in comparison to wlw romances. We have a lot of female characters in this show especially so the shippers had a lot of fuel for lesbian pairings while Martial Arcs (Ren and Jaune) was one of the only gay male ships that got anywhere near as popular. But then Lucky Charm, or Luck of the Caw as I personally called it, came around and so many people were happily on board. And now Clover has died, and a few people are quite outraged. But here is what must be understood. This pairing had only just started and for all the flirting and chemistry we saw between the two men, they were not in a relationship. There was no more proof that they were headed that way than there was for Bumbleby after Volume 1. Sure there were plenty of good moments between those two in that Volume, but their bond had not grown and developed to what we see it is now. Lucky Charm was still in that early stage and we cannot explicitly say Qrow and Clover were going to be a couple. You can be sad they didn’t end up that way, no doubt about that. But this is not a case of that old tragic trope of “bury your gays”. We had no confirmation that Clover was a gay man, or that Qrow is either. We can infer things from their conversation, but that’s it. An unfortunate loss to the fandom, yes. But this was likely not intentional baiting. And it is too bad that we couldn’t have this ship become canon, it would be great to have more mlm relationships in cartoons. Even if it only stayed a friendship, we need more of those that aren’t just macho action heroes. These two were emotionally open with one another and expressed their thoughts and doubts. It was a great thing while it lasted, but hatred over what could have been should not be the response to it ending. Nuff said.

One has to also wonder how the other Ace Ops are going to react to their leader being killed. He was the most level headed of the bunch and the one to keep them all in check when egos or tempers ran high. What would they do without him? We will have to see. But as Qrow screams in sorrow and frustration in the cold snow, the fans are left just as cold on the inside while we wait for the finale where things will hopefully wrap up on a better note. Like I said at the top, the night is darkest just before the dawn. And we literally see the dawn coming over the horizon behind Qrow. This is tragic, demoralizing and polarizing. But it is sure to be the worst this Volume gets. So lets all band together and face the new day with optimism and hope. 

[justfilipinothings]

genuinely “woke” vs clamor for sociopolitical clout and relevance

tfw the person has good intention (which we do appreciate) but, in the process, relatively insinuates himself/herself as being “woke” and concern about the social issues but it came out sounding pretentious?

That’s how I see and feel about this tweet. Yes, I know. She's only responsible for what she tweets, not for how I interpret it.  

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen posts/tweets/comments with the same, you know—underlying pretentious tone.  But really, there are blatant ones which you can tell at glance.

Kim chiu is another story. It’s not that she would like to appear “woke” to her supporters (at least that intention is not salient). I would rather call it a case of careless naivety and a lack of sociopolitical literacy. “Bawal Lumabas” thing is amusing the first time. For what it’s worth, equally sociopolitical illiterates and politically immature and foul-mouthed pro-admin peeps let it get into their head, and now they believed that they can just counter every sound arguments made by the opposition and their supporters with it. Never mind having cultured and non-aggressive discourse and laying out logical points, as always. 

Oh, no. I’m not invested on Jo Koy enough to come to his defense (if that’s what you’re thinking), though I’ve seen one clip of his show. Yes, he is a stand-up comedian, popular in the entertainment industry, and for that, he has made an influential platform but AND remain mum on [Philippine] social issues. 

Again, a stand-up comedian. That’s what he signed up for. Did he claim he is a proactive influencer? It’s his (honestly, anybody's) choice whether he does or does not want to speak up about it.

And if he released it on June 12 (Philippine Independence Day), what then? Would things change if he released it on a later date?

Other local personalities are also getting the same criticism. What’s the deal, really? Why do people feel the need to drag others in such an unnecessary way?

While I do agree that some people, indeed, find entertainment and “bank on shallow Filipino pride” (much like the cod and superfluous reaction videos of foreigners about undeniably talented Filipino artists and the like that we just can't seem to stop ourselves from watching because, to some degree, it strokes our boner for anything Filipino) and that some people, mostly those born, grew up, and living abroad with a minuscule percentage of Filipino blood running in their veins are only Filipino whenever it’s convenient for them, another part of me thinks that that has nothing to do with whether Jo Koy choose to be sociopolitically involved or not.

If a public figure (or even an influencer-kuno) choose to speak up because he personally thinks that he can help by such small act, that’s good. If not, that’s fine too. If a person abstains from voting during the election, it does not necessarily mean that he is leaning to pro-administration (regardless if it's the majority). It could be a sense of hopelessness on the people running as candidate for a respective government position that's holding him back, and I think we can’t blame the person for feeling that way. With the way our government constantly proves that politics is dirty and the people seated are a bunch of jesters every single day, no wonder this non-participative person becomes apathetic and demoralized.

Sabi nga ni Direk Antoinette Jadaone: "An everyday struggle: read the news and plant anger in your heart, or avoid news at all but be an apathetic Filipino."

It’s okay to voice out our sociopolitical concerns. It’s okay to educate the mass. It’s okay to influence the mass to join in our dissent for a good cause; It’s okay to inform them what they can do to help; to tell them why we do what we do and why we fight for these things. And it’s okay if they refuse to be an ally, choose to preserve their beliefs, or be indifferent about these issues.

What’s not okay is imposing our beliefs to another person. What’s not’s okay is equating being neutral and/or staying away from politics to being ignorant, having no sense of active citizenship, or simply assuming that this non-participative person (i’m talking in a general sense), deliberate or not, brought by personal circumstances or not, a consequence of their upbringing or not, is living under privileges. what's not okay is vilifying people for prioritizing their mental health and other personal issues over national or world issues. what’s not okay is dictating people to be politically involved and share our political sentiments and aspirations; chiding them for doing this and that, or the other way around; ordering them how to make use of their craft, platform, and whatnot (well, maybe, except if they’re making questionable behavior, actions, decisions, content, etc.); or worse, lecturing them how to live their life. 

After all, a person’s not “dilawan” just because he is against the Duterte regime.

I think it would be much better if people willingly put themselves out there and speak up about more pressing issues out of true empathy—that they, themselves, truly see the need for them to be an instrument to mobilize these sociopolitical movements because they can see why the way the government run things does not sit well with their fellow countrymen.

P.S. I haven't watched any of Jo Koy's episodes). For more contextual understanding, do elucidate me. Did Jo Koy, in any instance, satirized the current issues in the Philippines in such a way that puts the Philippine government in a generally favorable light? If yes, then that's fcked up, and  maybe, just maybe, I can understand where OP is coming from. 

[kob131]

Fair point. I'll say then, Cinder backstory was full of badly done clichés, like the Evil Stepmother was just ludacris in her pettiness, so were her stepdaughters. With the mud scene? Also, there's slavery now? Like, in the timeline just a couple years from show's present? Also, child abuse in Remnant kinda clashes a lot with what the world logically should look like but that's true for a ton of things. The showdown was just as silly.

We saw the two train together for 20 seconds and I had zero connection to them, nor any sympathy. Cinder's abuse doesn't justify the much shittier things she has been doing and the guy's reasoning seems to be finding a girl planning murder and he proceeds to train her to be a good one and hope she's not gonna kill her abusers she was already wanting to kill, while otherwise not doing shit to improve her situation that drove her to murderous intent the first place.

I also find abuse showed like this to be quite less effective, it's just so over the top and pointless from the pov of the abuser, it's just comes off as "milking it". The first episode of Attack on Titan comes to mind, with the main dude watching her mum, being killed in slow motion. I was laughing, just as I was laughing at the abusers here. It also doesn't explain how she went with Salem or why she put up with her abusing her the exact same way.

It's similar to the way this episode went and tried to justify RWBY's win over the ACE-OPS. They got criticized and thought to address it. I think it was hamfisted and not very believable. Or Penny's explanation of Ruby's semblance, or the fact it was news to RWBY. I think reason these things stick out like a sore thumb is because they are a rectionary insert into the story they don't neccesserily need to put them in. I definetly prefer a vague semblance or an implied backstory to this.

Okay, first- Thank you for actually saying something this time. I can actually address this.

Tl;Dr- A lot of this seems cartoonish but there are real world examples, details that change the context of things and even the very purpose of the backstory changes things.

I actually see where you’re coming from. Not hard to see it, I just need an explanation to be sure. But that doesn’t mean I fully agree with you here: that mud scene is a common one in media used to make the job of the child who cleans harder. Yes it seems absurdly petty...but considering the shit I went through at a similar age with bullies in a permissive school for less, I can’t exactly call this unrealistic (after all, why would the sisters not take out their frustrations and get a sense of power over someone they think can’t fight back and they won’t get punished over it.)

Same with the stepmother actually- A lot of adults don’t treat their kids humanely or use them as an outlet for their own frustrations or, again, control. I know it looks cartoonish...but for a non child/parent example- I watched a reddit stories video where a guy recollects that his dad used a generator to light up the basement instead of powering his dying mom’s ventalitor. ... Yeah, I can definitely see this pettiness. I think the issue is that like how Cinder was before, we don’t know why the stepmother is this way so it’s harder to buy in some cases.

The ‘slavery’ thing...issue there is we don’t actually know if this IS slavery. After all, going to the Cindrella story- she wasn’t a slave. She was TREATED as a slave while technically being a family member. A stupid distinction...until you remember that since the abuse that Cinder suffers that would be considered illegal (the shocking and lack of food) is done in private, there’s nothing to point to that would give anyone cause to question things. Even Cinder’s attempted murder could just be an issue with her as a person (I...would know).

As for the Cinder thing- That’s actually WHY I brought up Azula. Because unlike Zuko, Azula was never EXCUSED for her actions. Her backstory only EXPLAINED her actions. Judging from how RT does redemptions, Cinder is lacking the regret and hesitation that is usually present.

And for Rhodes...well, look back on the scenes he was in and the scenes with the extreme amount of abuse (aka the shocking). He’s never around for the extreme examples, just the ones that look like an overly strict parent and douchy siblings. And yes, I know Cinder could have told him and it seems like she should...but speaking from personal experience, people don’t tend to talk about things that hurt them that much. They’re more likely to hide it and bottle it up. And while you could suspect

I also get the Rhodes training Cinder thing seems counterproductive and the issue is mainly with not fully establishing Rhodes as a character. The thought process behind this was probably that, due to the show’s themes and tone, it’d be accepted that Rhodes would just believe in the best from Cinder. After all, Huntsmen have been portrayed, at worst, as well meaning but selfish dunces. And Rhodes’ empathy would put him at the positive end of the end

As for the effectiveness angle....that’s so subjective that it’s hard to argue. You can’t account for everyone’s reactions with making a piece of media. All I can say is with Salem: listen to what she says when Cinder’s arm is thrashing about. She’s portraying herself as thinking she’s wrong and that she’s gonna help Cinder. Something Rhodes genuinely thought with her. Salem’s targeting her need for validation just like Cinder targeted Emerald’s.

And that last stuff...yeah dude, I completely agree with you on a personal level there.

Overall, the stuff with Cinder probably seems cartoonish because, while situations like Cinder’s DO exist in real life... you’re not likely to see one. After all, while it does exist in real life- it’s still an extreme. You likely won’t see them personally and the examples you DO see are leaders or big figures who get simplified down to ‘born evil’ like Hitler (NOT excusing his actions). But yeah, people do end up this way through similar situations. 

While many things in life would interrupt this process and create a different result: like a roll of the dice, things will evitably go tits up eventually. Just that with the nature of stories: we’ll always see the result unlike real life where most of them die with no impact on the world like most people.

You’ve got good reason to think that way...but there’s good reason why the opposite extreme exists.