#oh-cytherea

[pecan-jelly]

Cytherea The First; Seventh Saint to the King Undying

[mercymornsimpathizer]

per request of (checks notes) two people….the premises of my interpretation of the plot of gideon the ninth vis a vis cytherea and john are as follows:

i. the actions taken by cytherea and john are not consistent with their stated motivations

ii. this is on purpose

iii. we can work backwards from these characters' actions to determine their real motivations

because i am a funny poster and because i love my followers i will explain further under a readmore. abandon all sanity ye who enter here etc.

why canaan house: john and john's motivations

while john does not appear "on screen" in gideon the ninth, his actions set the plot into motion and shape the conflicts the arise. (1)he sends letters to the scions of each house, requesting that they come to canaan house with their cavaliers and no one else. he does not request the leaders of each house, or the best necromancers of each house, or the most experienced. (2)he does not provide information of what the lyctorhood trials will entail, either in the initial letters or upon arrival at canaan house. (3)during the creation of the first lyctors, he did not inform anyone that the death of the cavalier is not necessary, and (4)he interfered in the ascension of anastasia/samael, (5) the pair who spent the longest studying the lyctorhood process and (6)who we can presume were closest to achieving "true lyctorhood," which we can presume is (7)more powerful than "normal lyctorhood" and (8)does not kill the cavalier.

(9)the stated purpose of the events at canaan house is to create new lyctors to replace those that have (really or apparently) died to the resurrection beasts. (10)john further states that he did not intend for any unwanted deaths; (11)that he intended for the necromancers and cavaliers to enter into lyctorhood willingly; and (12)that, if the necromancers and cavaliers decided not to enter into lyctorhood, he intended that they should have been allowed to leave peacefully. (13)we can presume he also intends that any new lyctors created would be loyal to him, or at least not a threat to him.

are these actions consistent for these motivations? in my correct opinion, they are not. the secrecy of what the lyctorhood trials entail and the choice of very young, competitive people as postulants do not lend themselves well to the postulants making wise, well-informed choices. if john wanted the postulants to enter into lyctorhood willingly, and leave peacefully if not, he could have informed them of what the trials and lyctorhood entail, encouraged cooperation between the houses, and stated explicitly that they could leave at any time.

one way to interpret this mismatch is that john was careless or negligent in how he set up the trials, which is possible but not consistent with his characterization otherwise. another interpretation is that john was not sincere in stated motivations 10-12, and that he rather set things up as he did to create uniquely easy to manipulate per 13, which both makes sense and is in character but is not consistent with his other actions.

why canaan house 2: cytherea and cytherea's motivations

while john shapes much of the plot of gideon the ninth, cytherea as the primary antagonist drives the plot more directly. (14)she kills dulcinea and adopts her identity to pose as a postulant in the lyctor trials, and she poorly reanimated protesilaus's corpse. (15)she presumably is responsible for disposing of the transports, stranding the postulants at canaan house.  (16)she kills first the fifth house and the fourth house. (17) she prompts the ninth to complete the avulsion trial. (18)she attacks gideon, harrow, and camilla after being confronted by palamedes, but (19)repeatedly offers to spare gideon. (20)throughout her murder spree, she writes on the walls, questioning or criticizing  john for the events of her own ascension. (21)she did not participate in dios apate and is not mentioned by mercymorn or augustine as being party to their conspiracy to kill john (i think...correct me if this is wrong!). (22) her identity is not revealed by teacher or the other constructs at canaan house, despite the fact that they presumably would recognize her. (23)she does not contact or encourage the other postulants to contact john or anyone else for help.

(24)cytherea states that her motivation is to sabotage the creation of new lyctors and (25)to draw john to the nine houses, putting himself and the nine house in danger from the resurrection beasts. (26)she strongly implies that this is in revenge for her cavalier or possibly all of the original cavaliers. (27)presumably, she also wants both to survive long enough to accomplish these aims, though (28)she does not seem to intend to survive for very long beyond the events at canaan house.

are these actions consistent with these motivations? again, in my correct opinion, they are not. she does not send a distress call to draw john to canaan house, and she does not encourage anyone else to do so. she kills jeannemary and magnus, even though killing isaac and abigail would prevent the fourth and fifth from ascending; while it could be argued that she would have had to kill magnus to protect her plan, but this isn't true of jeannemary's murder. she further lets other necro-cav pairs live, despite the fact this allows for the opportunity for them to ascend. her stated goals (24 and 25) could be well achieved by (a, for 25) killing (simply or gruesomely) all or most of the necromancers, while allowing the cavaliers to live, and/or (b, for 24) calling or encouraging someone else to call for help or otherwise alert someone that things have gone wrong; neither of these actions would contradict her other stated or implied motivations.

(as an aside: i think many people believe that cytherea killed the fifth first because she suspected they were likeliest to figure out her plan, which is possible but doesn't explain why she would kill the fourth next or why she wouldn't kill the sixth or third.)

one interpretation of this mismatch is that she planned sloppily or haphazardly. while this doesn't directly contradict anything we know about her, it doesn't make much sense to me -- i don't think anyone, let alone a very powerful and reasonably intelligent person, would half-ass a revenge/justice plot as their last hurrah, even if she did not have long to plan or if her plan changed upon realizing that gideon is john's daughter. another interpretation i've seen is that cytherea is simply sadistic and/or dramatic, and that her actions are motivated by a desire to make the postulants paranoid and afraid. i think this is on the right track, but doesn't itself explain everything she does (and the things she does not do).

why be perfect when you could be normal: the original lyctors and perfect lyctorhood

what is "perfect lyctorhood" and under what conditions does it occur? when i use the term "perfect lyctorhood," i'm referring to a situation where both the necromancer and the cavalier ascend to lyctorhood and share their newfound power; this is in contrast to what i'm calling "normal lyctorhood," wherein the necromancer kills and consumes the cavalier and uses them as a power source. in text, john and alecto are the only example we see of "true lyctorhood," while the other original lyctors (and ianthe) are "normal."

while the creation of the original lyctors is not thoroughly described in the text, we do know some details. it is strongly implied that (29)mercymorn and augustine, the first two lyctors, ascended under duress after their cavaliers forced their hands, presumably by killing themselves. much later, (30) anastasia and samael attempted to ascend after (5)spending a long time studying the process, but are (4)interrupted by john, who kills samael. (31)john states this he interfered because anastasia and samael had made a mistake. (32)at no point does john inform anyone that perfect lyctorhood is possible or that the cavaliers do not need to die.

i think it's reasonable to conclude that (33)very skilled necromancers, with strong bonds of mutual respect with their cavaliers, given the right resources (i.e. the trials at canaan house, or something equivalent, and sufficient time) could achieve perfect lyctorhood, or at least come close to it. (34)fear, pressure, and devaluation of the lives of cavaliers, on the other hand, push necromancers towards normal lyctorhood.

i think it's also reasonable to conclude that, in line with (13)his motivation to maintain power over the lyctors, john does not want perfect lyctors to be created, and that (4)his interference in the ascension of anastasia and samael was not because (31)they made a mistake but rather (35)to prevent them from achieving power that would rival his own.

connecting the red string

if john and cytherea's actions are not sufficiently explained by their stated motivations (or of them the motivations commonly attributed to them by fans), what motivations would explain their actions? because john (by asking for young people as postulants, and by being secretive about the lyctoral process, and by not stating that postulants could leave) and cytherea (by killing people, and by preventing people from leaving, and by generally encouraging competition and paranoia among the postulants) both created an environment of fear and pressure at canaan house, and because cytherea (by letting both necromancers and cavaliers live in other cases) john (by not providing a deadline, and by not forbidding or obscuring parts of the trials, and by not directly or indirectly supervising the trials) otherwise do nothing to prevent to an outcome that they does not want, i think we can draw the following conclusion: john and cytherea are both attempting to ensure that normal lyctors, and only normal lyctors, are created at canaan house.

in other words, i think john tasked cytherea with going to canaan house to put pressure on the postulants to ascend quickly and to prevent them from leaving alive if they were likely to not ascend. i think he did this because he did not want the postulants to become perfect lyctors, and because he did not want the secrets of lyctorhood to be known to the nine houses in general, and because he did not want to take responsibility for the deaths. i think cytherea likely did want revenge against john, and likely did not want to live beyond canaan house, but did not want to kill john; rather i think she wanted to be killed by john or by one of the new lyctors.

i think that tamsyn muir is a talented writer who has demonstrated an ability to create twisty, multi-layered plots where characters are often working on incorrect or incomplete information and where characters are often not forthcoming or are dishonest about their actions and motivations, and that therefore the mismatch between characters' actions and stated motivations are intentional. i think my conclusion sufficiently explains the actions taken (and not taken) by both cytherea and john in the gideon the ninth, and while it contradicts their stated motivations, i do not think it contradicts any of their actions or any of their demonstrated motivations. moreover i think it is consistent with their characterization in general: cytherea is dramatic and emotionally distraught over her own ascension, but she is not part of the plot against john, and she encourages gideon in her role as cavalier; john is very smart, and has few compunctions about doing horrible things to children (especially to maintain his own power), but does not want to be blamed for the things he does, and so often outsources the dirty work to his followers.

[nadirising]

It's just innocent flirting there are absolutely no ulterior motives don't even worry about it

[emiett]

Did this stupid locked tomb doodle for Didi at SPX :)

[steepedfoxglovetea]

how2 deal with grief, TLT edition:

(credit to @metanarrates for the idea based on their poll)

Martyr Complex: Gideon Nav

Kill Everyone: Cytherea

gay sex: Ianthe

TIME LOOP: Abigail and Magnus

sorcerer’s curse: Palamedes

💥💥💥💥💥: Mercymorn

keep dragging it around like a corpse chained to your ankles forever: Camilla

Devotion That Corrupts: Harrowhark

hormone replacement therapy: Pyrrha

TIME LOOP AGAIN: Abigail and Magnus

Link to poll under the cut

[arithmonym]

lines that hit different after reading nona the ninth

[vulpixenthusiast]

Guys, do you think cytherea was trying to make Harrow and Gideon allies to her cause when she asked them to do the syphoning trial? cause that reads a whole lot like that to me. It’s the worst trial and it finally makes harrow question why t fuck did she ever want to be a lyctor. And cyth famously tells Gideon: remember this feeling and don’t ever let anyone do this to you again.

[theflirtmeister]

the urge to write a horribly self indulgent fic where silas manages to call colum back into his body at the end of gideon the ninth and gideon + ianthe + harrow + others have to watch the weird eighth unclenephew pair have a snog

[technicolorxsn]

finally read the mysterious study of doctor sex 🎉🎉

[mayasaura]

'Cause she wasn't done playing with Gideon, and wanted to keep her around to open the tomb.

Why go through the trouble of all that gruesome theatricality with Jeanne's corpse if Gideon wasn't gonna wake up and see it? And then, in the aftermath, Cytherea makes herself Gideon's confidante to help her through her trauma. She almost convinces Gideon to leave Harrow for her using that as a wedge. <3 Almost.

why did cytherea spare gideon when she killed jeannemary?

[specialagentartemis]

Reading (listening to, as Homer intended) the Iliad making me go oh. Ohhh. I should have done this before I read Gideon the Ninth. I get it now.

Particularly thinking now about the tidbit that in early drafts, our beloved gray-eyed Necromancer Warden of the Sixth House was named Diomedes Sextus. For Diomedes, king of Argos, young, brave, noble, heroic. Favorite fighter of Athena, bestest friend of Odysseus. And, notably, fought gods and—well he didn’t win exactly. But he got them good.

And specifically, he fought and wounded Aphrodite; Aphrodite, who is also called Cytherea.

And then of course Tamsyn Muir said she decided to change his name so she could make the Sex Pal joke.

Palamedes is a less heroic, less fondly remembered character in the Trojan War, but according to Plato, he unrelatedly invented both number and the alphabet, so you keep that connection to scholarship even if that’s not the first association with him. More interestingly, imo, there’s also an Arthurian Knight of the Round Table named Palamedes, best known for his unrequited love for Isolde (and his apparent ultimately gracious acceptance of her choosing Tristan).

I think this is actually a super interesting shift in thematic naming focus: from favored-of-Athena, fought-gods-and-wounded-them to unrequited heterosexual love, but didn’t act like a dick about it.

Also y’know. Sex Pal

[zombified-queer]

Now that I think about it, Cytherea 400% knew who Wake was. She allied with Blood of Eden who borderline WORSHIP the woman. And before Cyth died, she last spoke to Augustine about a decade ago.

Her shock at Canaan House was not because the plan worked. It's because she knew all the messy dirt about the polycule in shambles and she was making connections.

[the-velvet-worm]

the love triangle in TLT is so funny because it's not even a true love triangle. it's like a shape that hasn't even been invented yet. first you've got Ianthe, who thinks Harrow is totally into her but isn't. and Harrow is into Gideon but also this really sexy corpse. the sexy corpse was maybe probably in a relationship with Gideon's dad who's also the leader of the solar system. he hooks up with his officers sometimes and has hooked up with his best friends over the last 10,000 years because they were bored. Ianthe also has this weirdly borderline incestuous relationship with Coronabeth but Coronabeth is in love with Judith who had a crush on her now-dead cavalier. the only ones who've got a semi-normal relationship are Camilla and Palamedes and even then they had a weird poly thing with Dulcinea even though they never met her in person. and they have another weird poly thing with Pyrrha but by that point they're sharing a body. then they decide to do a mutual suicide/soul binding ritual and become a whole new person in Camilla's body. also they're second cousins. oh Pyrrha also had a weird poly thing with her necro and Gideon's biomom/the leader of the rebellion who's fighting against Gideon's biodad. I don't even have time to unpack all that and that doesn't even cover half of the shit happening here. there's also the whole Cytherea thing

[dykeseinfeld]

see if cytherea is supposed to be the villain then why did she cradle gideon’s head in her lap and say “oh good girl you poor baby you magnificent creature just keep going. you were incredible. astonishing.” and then kiss her on the forehead???? checkmate liberals.

[reflection-s-of-stars]

I think it’s very important that Abigail Pent is a little bit strange and off-putting. Like yes, she’s the oldest non-lyctor necromancer on cast and she’s a maternal figure and she generally makes smart decisions, but also! She’s a spirit magician! She knows everything there is to know about ghosts! She makes overly intense eye contact! She got so caught up in her research she forgot her own anniversary! She’s definitely the best-adjusted compared to the other necros and yeah she looks pretty normal but as soon as she opens her mouth you’re like “oh she’s not all there is she.” I fully believe she clocked Cytherea on some level at the dinner party but she was too distracted telling her about her research to really think about it. And most importantly I think Magnus Quinn is the normalest guy you will ever meet and he loves his weird weird wife with his whole entire heart and soul

[derseprinceoftbd]

Cytherea on the outside: "Oh my, Gideon The Ninth, what lovely recessive eyes!"

Cytherea on the inside: "GOD WHAT THE FUCK I MEAN THAT LITERALLY WHAT THE FUCK DID JOHN DO WHO THE FUCK IS THIS WHY A FUCKING *SHADOW CULTIST* I AM GOING TO MURDER THAT ANCIENT MANWHORE AND IT *WILL* BE THE LAST THING I DO!!!!"