#not to get into hotd discourse but lets get into hotd discourse

[greenbloods]

always infinitely funny to me how the dance of the dragons is about the futility of both sides of the struggle as they tear each other apart and doom the realm. and the fandom looked at that for all of two seconds before deciding to recreate it online

[scarysanctuary]

Why do i keep seeing people say that Alicent forced Rhaenyra to come see her after she'd just given birth? She wanted to see the baby, and yes, it was not the time, but let's not act as if that request on its own makes Alicent more evil than anyone else on this show. They were in the midst of a bitter resentment towards one another, and she wanted to see if this baby bore any resemblance to Laenor, which would put her family at risk further, you may not like what she did, but she was queen, and a mother, and she was anxious to know what their future would hold. Not to mention, when Alicent did see Rhaenyra show up in her room, she was surprised, and didnt expect her to be there, and didn't make Rhaenyra stay for long. You may not like what transpired, but both women made a choice here, Rhaenyra chose to go there as a statement, to hold a mirror to Alicent's cruelty, and anyone that passed by would have seen this too. Lying about what happened doesnt only mischaracterize Alicent and Rhaenyra, but it also takes away Rhaenyra's autonomy. She's not a child, she is a woman, and she made that hard decision to climb those stairs, she sent that message, and with it she showed that she was stubborn, and a badass, dont take that away from her just because you hate Alicent.

[redmelawashere]

tbh probably a controversial hot take considering what I've seen floating in the tags, but I actually really like the HOD show and I'm really getting exhausted with book purists. The book and show aren't meant to be a 1-to-1 adaptation, they're meant to be a transmedial storytelling - when media complements one another and are interwoven like fabric. The book is meant to be a historical summation of the events written by Maesters like 100 years after the fact, based on unreliable sources and hearsay. The show is the "what actually happened" and I think that's FASCINATING from a historical revisionist perspective, the biases of the Maesters and their disdain of Targaryen customs from a religious perspective, misogyny, and patriarchy. Its an excellent commentary on history written by the victors, demonization of women, and how PR works. I've really enjoyed seeing Blood and Cheese, the Battle of Rooks Rest and having this "ooooh OOOH OF COURSE IT WAS WRITTEN IN X WAY TO NOT REVEAL Y" eureka moments while watching.

[knightsickness]

Rhaenyra being a good person and ruler is not boring. Ned was boring?

was considering answering this with ‘lose the question mark’ but that felt mean i do like ned i think hes a good character. and the thing is ned is a boring guy on a personal level all characters agree but he isnt a boring character nice ≠ boring i dont need everyone to be evil. i dont dislike rhaenyra just bc shes soso nice and i only like villains

i dont know when ‘a character having strong motivations and flaws makes them more compelling than a character who is inoffensively nice’ became controversial i would consider it character writing 101. hotd fans leap down your throat about it bc of the teams discourse. ‘aegon was more interesting than rhaenyra in season 2’ isnt an aegon rules rhaenyra drools team green argument it is objectively true aegon is more motivated and he does more

it is not compelling character stuff and an insult to emma’s abilities that they wont let rhaenyra do anything or have any motivations apart from a) peace shes a pacifist and doesnt want to be in the war she is a de facto leader in except maybe she does want to be in the war? (dragonseeds) b) the stupid prophecy c) the throne but she refuses to have a war about it bc see point a). and she states these motivations every episode but theyre actively contradictory so as a result she just doesnt do anything shes almost entirely reactive. if she really cares so much about not having a war and harming her people there are many actions she could take to change that and make a peace but she wont do that bc she wants her father’s throne (far more sentimental and niceys than anything as selfish and crass as her ugh just wanting the throne) and believes she has to be queen and is the chosen one bc of the prophecy. but she doesnt want a war bc women are wise and war is bad so so so she got main character screentime and did almost nothing in eight episodes. end of season 2 even though the war has been literally happening around her people are still talking about when rhaenyra is going to recognise this and start acting like it. a goalpost that has been moved from lukes death to jaces death bc lukes death affected her and her policy veryy little considering how confident everyone was that this means WAR get ready for a NEW DARK RHAENYRA a mothers RAGE. and that just didnt happen at all

baela and to a lesser extent rhaenys also get hit w this really hard theyre a blandly inoffensive Strong Female Character slurry being smeared on my face like im a baby and id get scared if they had any selfish desires. and this does work at pleasing people who are already tb fanatics yayy girlboss imagine liking the creeps on tg over these characters who are women who are nice but it makes for dull characters and plotlines it insults the ability of the audience to like women unless theyre completely sandblasted of anything potentially controversial. i have no idea what motivates baela to fight for rhaenyras cause other than ‘shes jaces nice girlfriend’. and thats really bad !! ned cat brienne sansa dany etc wanted and did things characters can be nice and morally good and motivated and compelling

[darksisterk]

Let’s get this straight in HOTD ship discourse:

Out of all the so-called “perverted” ships in the show, we could name quite a few to be honest.. Daemon/Rhaenyra’s age-gap is close to 20 years apart. We had scenes of them with implied sexual tension even when Rhaenyra was only 14 in episode 1, yet no one seemed to have a problem with that. Viserys/Alicent..we won’t even talk about the age-gap between these two because it’s just absurd, but it is an arranged marriage. Yet again, most people don’t seem to have a problem with this.

Aemond/Alys, or Daemon/Alys, the largest age-gap thus far considering Gayle Rankin claims that Alys is nearly 400 years old beneath her glimmer.

Lastly Aemond/Lucerys, these two have the least of the age-gaps as they are only 3 years apart and yet people still call this the most “monstrous” of all the ships in show-verse. I get it, Elliot, who plays Luke is far younger than Ewan, so the age disparity is more obvious than it should be in canon, but so was Matt Smith and Milly Alcock when they portrayed Daemon/Rhaenyra…Let’s be real though, the main reason people are offended by this pairing is because it’s a queer ship. Had Lucerys been a girl there wouldn’t be near as much affront. I know a lot of talented, amazing individuals who have written for this ship..particularly aged-up Aemond/Lucerys and none of them deserve the hate directed towards them nor their work when there are far more disturbing ships in the show. Not everyone who supports this pairing condone fanart/works portraying the underage actor. So let’s stop acting like everyone who ships Lucerys/Aemond is demon spawn for seven hells sake. 🤝

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

i think Helaena can be autistic but also a happy and joyful girl , autism ≠ depression. the way the portrayed the only neurodivergent character on screen as unstable, shunned depressed, and with no importance to the plot feel very ableist and weird , but then they're the ones who made the guy with a foot disability a feet fetishist 🫠

Hi OP, finally answering this because the trailer dropped and still the only Helaena shots we have are from her Jaehaerys' funeral. There is also one still photo of her. If you haven't seen it, here she is, apparently sewing the funeral shroud for her little boy:

So it seems like season 2 is going to continue on this trajectory for Helaena as a character who exists in order to suffer beautifully.

Don't get me wrong. I am glad that the show is going to wring the full emotional effect from Blood and Cheese, not just shock value. The audience will feel the real horror of a six year old child brutally murdered in his own home and the psychological torment of Helaena. It should be terrible, it should be devastating, and I hope they do not pull any punches.

What's disappointing about how the show has handled Helaena is that they didn't really put any effort into building up her character before her tragedy. It's all well and good that she likes bugs and she's touch averse, but what are her opinions? Who is she closest to? How did she react to becoming a mother so young? To what extent does she understand her visions? What does she value? She can be happy and cheerful, or she can be frustrated and angry, and hell, she can be depressed too, but I need to know why. It's telling that I can describe the basic internal motivations for each of the male children, including Luke who was a glorified plot device, but I cannot for Helaena. Aegon wants to feel loved, Jace wants to prove he's as worthy as any trueborn heir, Aemond wants what his brother has, Luke wants to be free from his family's expectations. Helaena? Fuck if I know. I guess she wants not to die horribly.

The ableism is an issue. F&B is full of women who were deemed "simple" -- Gael, Daella, Jaehaera-- without being given much else to define them, and HotD adds another (there's something, I think, to the way the "simple" Targaryens are always women and how disability kind of used as a way to remove them from the narrative and shunt them aside, often tragically). And while it's great to see an autistic person represented on screen, the show consistently has an issue with treating representation as characterization. "Autistic girl who likes bugs" is not a personality. Autistic people, (even those with horrifying prophesies I assume), do have hopes and dreams and feelings about things. The one peek we get into Helaena's life is at the in episode 8 when she roasts Aegon and even that scene is open to interpretation (and gets taken wildly out of context). Now, I can read a lot into the actor performances, but ultimately, lines that could have given a glimpse Helaena personality were cut. It's as if they're afraid that if they give her an opinion on anything she would lose that (frankly kind of infantilizing) "pure cinnamon roll too good for this world" "i would die for her" sympathy from people who are not inclined to be sympathetic for her family as a whole.

(And anon, you're right about Larys. And let me say, turning Larys' clubfoot into the punchline of an OnlyFeet joke also does not inspire confidence that they'll handle Aegon II's eventual disability with any sensitivity either, especially when Mushroom's accounts of his last few months are incredibly mean spirited. We need to start that discourse now so they get the memo).

Sadly, I don't think the show really has any intention of course correcting with Helaena in season 2. I imagine at most we'll have her try to warn Aegon and/or Aemond about Blood & Cheese but they won't understand her warning, and then this will be a vehicle to further their guilt and grief. And while we do need to see Aegon's guilt and his grief, I also want to know if Helaena blames herself, if she wishes they'd run away when they had the chance, if she thinks Aegon could have done something, if she is angry at Aemond for killing Luke, if she wants revenge. I do think, with the public funeral for Jaehaerys, they are going to show that the smallfolk are fond of Helaena, and hopefully that will be expanded upon this season and in season 3 because her death is the catalyst for the revolt that sees Rhaenyra driven from the city, and we should understand why her death has such an impact before she actually dies.

[nessest]

''Women good, man bad'', and ''Misandrist writing'' are some of the most annoying takes that have come out in the HotD discourse.

It's funny when you consider that most male characters are presented as BETTER than their book counterparts;

Viserys Targaryen, at 18 years old, started to consummate his marriage to his cousin, Aemma Arryn and she was just 13 years old, getting pregnant so young is what caused her poor health later on; Aemma died at just 23 years old, after spending 10 years getting pregnant and having dead babies and miscarriages; She gave birth to Rhaenyra at 15, HOTD's Alicent Hightower married Viserys at 15; Viserys of course, took no note of what early pregnancies did to his 1st wife, so he married his 13-year-old daughter to her brother; (in HOTD, it was Alicent who arranged the match); In Fire and Blood Viserys gave Rhaenyra no choice of husband, even threatened to disinherit her, in HOTD? a whole tour was done for her and she is the one who messed it up; So, yes Viserys is more sympathetic in HOTD than in Fire and Blood, especially when you take his sickness and regret of what he did to Aemma.

Daemon Targaryen, yes he might not have killed his wife in Fire and Blood, but in HOTD the death of Rhea Royce was downplayed and later turned into a joke. Daemon was in Rhaenyra's life since she was a young girl, especially vulnerable with her father's new marriage (she was 9-10) when he groomed her, the scandal between Viserys and Daemon did not happen when Rhaenyra was 18-19 like in HOTD, but when she was just 14 years old. In Fire and Blood, Daemon most likely asked for one of Aegon's sons, but in HOTD? He asked for Aemond, but those 2 goons.. took it upon themselves.

Criston Cole, the poor dornish knight, who meets Rhaenyra when she is 14, is pressured to sleep with her and then feels so much guilt, of course, Rhaenyra denies him, Alicent saves him from suicide and then he is by her side.... but did it happen like this in Fire and Blood? NO. Criston became Rhaenyra's sword shield when she was 8-9 years old and allegedly, before she got married she wanted to give him her virginity, but he spurned her (Mushroom), but the more reliable source here is Eustace, who claims that it was Cole, who went to Rhaenyra and urged her to run away with him and when she denied him? He turned on her.

Aegon Targaryen who in Fire and Blood was groping every maid, who fathered a bastard on his mother's maid and ''won'' a young girl's maidenhead at the Streets of SIlk is not a rapist? /In Fire and Blood, the ''rumour'' about the bastards comes from Mushroom, but in the novel ''The Rogue Prince'' it is presented as a fact); The Aegon we see in HOTD is much, much more sympathetic that the one we see in Fire and Blood.

Aemond Targaryen, who was a bullying victim in HOTD, who was attacked 4 vs 1 (by children in his age range), who regretted killing Luke.... who was also apparently a SA victim, now let's compare it F&B Aemond who pushed a 3-year-old Joff in dragon droppings, who beat Jace, Luke and Joffrey, who started calling them bastards and had Jace attack him WITH NO KNIFE (at only 6 years old)... and Aemond being 10 was beating him bloody, well until his brother didn't take out a knife and slash Aemond in the face; Who killed Luke intentionally and who enjoyed a feast to killing their younger nephew, but of course, it's only the women who are ''sanitized'' and men are presented as ''bad''.

Intresting.

[thecountesstribe]

HOTD 2X5 THOUGHTS.

I knew after coming off an action packed episode, the pace would've slowed down and I'm not mad at it.

BAELA AND JACE WERE THE MVP'S OF THIS EPISODE. THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!! AFTER THE DROUGHT THAT THEY HAD IN SEASON 1 AND THE BEGINNING OF SEASON 2, WE'RE FINALLY BEING FED.

The Targtowers parading around Meleys head this episode has got to be one of the dumbest shit besides putting bbq Aegon on the throne they've ever done. Yes let's galavant the one thing that keeps us in power and the realm in order for a petty show of arrogance. That makes sense. The small folk immediately being “nah this ain't it” is so funny and a sign of all the things to come for them. They're idiots! Meleys wasn't no traitor you bums, you were. Get all the greens off my screen.

Aegon's suffering, I used to pray for times like this. It's highly unlikely Sunfyre is dead. Alicent and Crybaby Cole aren't together anymore..... Fuckin yes. I told you guys Alicent is delusional as hell, she really thought the same council that she helped usurped Rhaenyra's birthright because she's a WOMAN, would've let her, a woman rule them? Criston, Larys and Aemond not backing her had to taste like gravel going down. It's deserved. She had the opportunity to do the right thing and she forfeited it again and again and again. Fuck Almond today, tomorrow, the day after tomorrow, the next day after that and the day after forevermore. If I was him I would take Haelena's words as an ill omen.

I felt for Corlys man. Like he pisses me off don't get me wrong but that's still my guy and he's lost a lot. Rhaenys was Corlys practical to his idealistic delusional. That man never listened to his wife until it was too late. Him trying to name Baela his heir, when Rhaenys wanted Rhaena to be his heir at first, can't do that now anyway, Rhaena's not around right now and Baela absolutely refusing and gagging tf outta him in the same breath , I cheered. Baela is upholding her grandmother's last wishes. No more but “BaElA hAD MoRe ClaIm to Driftmark” discourse, she's “FIRE AND BLOOD!”, Driftmark should be passed to “SALT AND SEA”. She said it herself. Now a certain demographic could stop equating her being a poc to her Velaryon roots. She every bit a Targaryen. Don't start with the Rhaena discourse either because she's the same as well. The only reason Rhaenys wanted her to have Driftmark is because it would've gone to Rhaena either way had she married Lucerys and Corlys had no intention to claim those boys atp in time. Corlys is trying to honor Rhaenys wishes, I could respect that but do it in the way she wanted it in her final moments Corlys. He's still my guy though.

I am sick of this Harrenhal plot. That scene with Daemon and his mom....... Just why? He never even met his mother either. I am so sorry Mama Alyssa. Even for the incest in the Targaryen lineage, did the writers have to take it that far? That shit was egregious. The only good part was seeing Laena again. Answer the question though Daemon. “Are you taking care of her girls?!” Get Daemon out of there now. Alys has that man gone off his rockers. I'm over it. I love how Simon is sick of Daemon's shenanigans though, he's real asf for that 🤣😭. Caraxes sighting 🥺. I miss my chaos noodle boy.

Rhaenyra comforting Baela. We won. Look she mightn't have had the best relationship with the girls in the show and it's not developed on screen properly, thanks for that HBO, but she does love and care for them. Her telling Baela about her Grandma (I still refuse to believe Rhaenys is gone💔😭) and we got an explanation for why Rhaena didn't try to claim a dragon on Dragonstone (she almost died and Rhaenyra wouldn't allow her to do it again), that was for me. In the books those girls were close to her and Rhaena was her “Realm's delight” namesake, I'll never forgive them for taking that and the team black family dynamics away from me. We got a Luke mention 😭. Her and Jace working out their issues and she knowing he snuck away to be a diplomat, more of that please. She's finally acknowledging her strengths and weaknesses and starting to move and think like a leader. I love it here.

Jace finally got a chance to do more than just mew, tweak and brood. I understand why Rhaenyra wasn't sending him out, that boy is out for blood, as he should be and he's inherently going to be reckless if he did go out to scout instead of Baela. Just listen to him last episode and tell me if he sounded like he had a clear head on his shoulders. I wish we saw more than that shot of Vermax and him actually riding his dragon but a win is a win. Him subtly threatening the Freys with Vermax, he's a diplomat alright. His mother needs “bent knees” and that is exactly what he got her. Proud of him. Baela going about her duties and whacking the men that are being annoying as she goes. Proud of them. Diplomat husband and battle wife is just *chef's kiss*. I'll say it again I absolutely adore his relationship with Baela. It's so healthy and I don't get into fandoms to “ship” but I love them your honor. Their soft way of speaking to one another, even when they're disagreeing. Him confiding in her about how humiliating it is that he thinks he's being coddled because of his standing as prince and her getting to go out and scout and fight but her still understanding and trusting him on his secret mission (that's what it was, he snuck out to go treat with the Freys), him being considerate of her at all times, “Rhaenys is dead and Baela can't face the burden alone” yeah I love them. Plus she has him trained 😩🤣. One look, then she grabbed him and he stopped immediately in his tracks and he backed up and started paying attention. Whew. The greatest King and Queen that could've come out of the 7 realms.

We had a Rhaena sighting. Look I love Jeyne but I'll need her to watch her tone with Rhaena please and thank you. Rhaena you're not powerless love. She's been through enough, I just need everybody to get out of her way and give her everything that she wants, it's what she deserves. I didn't like how she found out about Rhaenys though💔. I think they're really scrapping Nettles though 🙃. Wtf Sara and Ryan. I'll not get into that, it's literally grinding my gears though.

Next week we'll see Silverwing and Vermithor!!! I'm excited. Until then guys.

[frazzledsoul]

Not to defend my girl Alicent again because I'm constantly doing that, but the reason she didn't let Heleana get married to Jace was not because she's "an evil, selfish c**t" who hates Heleana and wants her to be miserable (gawd, HOTD discourse is the worst, I swear).

As far as Alicent is concerned, Rhaenyra is dumb, reckless, and prizes her libido above everything else. She's the privileged princess who gets to do whatever she wants because Viserys is always one step behind her cleaning up her mess, and Alicent and her kids are barely acknowledged by him. Yes, she's jealous and resentful, but also she is objectively right. Rhaenyra is a moron who constantly makes terrible decisions. She shamed their family by almost having public sex with Daemon in a brothel, she coerced Criston into sex, she lied to Alicent about the whole ordeal in a sacred space. She could have married any age-appropriate prince in the kingdom and yet she did all that shit anyway. In the time since then, she's had multiple blatantly illegitimate children by her bodyguard and has placed them in line for the throne, endangering the entire family, and yet she keeps doing it anyway and Viserys keeps letting her.

Alicent definitely doesn't have the language for the concept, but she knows Heleana is "special" and will not do well finding a husband and she doesn't want her under the control of another family who will abuse that. She also knows that Viserys doesn't give a shit what happens to any of the younger kids, so it's all up to her to protect Heleana. She doesn't trust Rhaenyra and she knows Viserys won't be around much longer to protect her from the consequences of her actions. That's why she turns down the proposal. Not because she hates Heleana and wants her to be unhappy.

Now, what would have happened if Alicent had agreed to it? Well, Aemond still likely claims Vhagar, he still gets into a fight with Rhaenyra and Daemon's brood and loses his eye, Rhaenyra still likely orders him tortured for publicly outing her "secret", Viserys still takes her side, and Alicent and Rhaenyra still likely get into an altercation. I don't think the proposal would have prevented any of that and Alicent isn't letting Heleana get into Rhaenyra's clutches now that a feud has started among the younger kids and she's vulnerable to violence she can't prevent or even really discuss afterwards. Oh, and then Rhaenyra married Daemon and moves away to a distant castle. There is absolutely no way Alicent is letting Daemon have unlimited access to her baby girl in an environment where she can't escape. Even if she had let Heleana go with them, it probably wouldn't have prevented the fight between the Strong boys and Alicent's sons that happens later, and Luke and Aemond are still probably going to go at it at some point and war will still have happened. Jace may be decent and well-intentioned, but he's also spoiled and can be a hothead, and his intentions won't be able to prevent everything else that is still going to happen.

So, yes. Alicent kept Heleana with her and married her to her brother in order to protect her. She also probably did it because she knew Aegon was reckless and hedonistic just like Rhaenyra, and figured if she kept an eye on both of them she'd be able to control the situation. It was in many ways a bad decision that opened Heleana up to a lot more abuse than she would have gotten from Jace (unfortunately, the possibility that she gives birth to twins at FOURTEEN as a result of sex she didn't want to have is still likely) but Alicent didn't do it because she hated her kids. She wanted to protect them, and in her mind this was the only way to do it.

[la-pheacienne]

There is something that has always rubbed the wrong way about the terms of the hotd/fire and blood discourse and particularly how political it always is. Misogyny accusations are super popular and they are being thrown by both sides because they are faster, they are catchy and it's a lot easier to do that than sit down and talk about themes, narrative and consistency under a neutral light. The problem is they often get in the way of a more in depth analysis of media and I say that to myself first and foremost because I do it too. When I say misogyny accusations, I am not only talking about literal accusations (aka if you support team green/black you are a misogynist), I also include all the takes that resemble the following: "my take is better/more accurate than yours because it is more politically progressive/radical/revolutionary/healthy/enlightened/yadayada than yours". Both sides use this, and they use this A LOT. It is almost impossible to take part in discourse over fire and blood/hotd/asoiaf without including this perspective. I'm not saying we should abolish this perspective and never talk about it again, it is always interesting to take this into account. But let's pause for a second and just try to put this on the side just for a little bit. What are we left with? Oh yeah. We are left with the raw materials of the story. Let's talk about that, and only that, just for a little while.

Yes, fire and blood includes a dichotomy between a good woman and a bad woman (although it doesn't exactly do that and this is a very simplistic way of looking at the story). Yes this dichotomy is an old concept. Yes the wicked stepmother is an old concept as well, rooted in ancient patriarcal societal norms and dynamics we are all more or less familiar with, some less than others.

Is this dynamic, which is at the core of fire and blood, politically progressive/radical/subversive? Probably not (huge objection there but I said I will not talk about politics in this post).

Is it a better story than hotd? Yes. It is.

Does it make more sense than hotd? Yes. It does.

I am sorry. There is absolutely no way hotd has more sense than fire and blood. Even if one qualifies it as a more inspired, progressive, unexpected, intresting retelling/revisiting of the original, this will never, ever make it a good story in an organic way.

There is absolutely no way to seriously, unironically argue that going from "we play an ugly game. i see you have the determination to win it" to Alicent usurping Rhaenyra because of a misunderstanding in the span of one episode is a better narrative and makes more sense than whatever happened in fire and blood. It makes Alicent a victim of circumstances, it breaks the dichotomy or the wicked stepmother trope or whatever you want it to break, and all that is cool, but it doesn't make a better story than the one we got in fire and blood.

There is absolutely no way to seriously claim that Alicent being sexually harassed by her servant makes a better story than her controlling her servant. It is not something that would actually happen in real life under any circumstances whatsoever. It is extremely forced, weird and overall nonsensical (not to mention politically problematic for 100 reasons because again, I will not talk politics in this post). The average viewer that does not wish to write essays about how politically enlightened it is to "break the dichotomy" will look at this scene and say "what the fuck is that". Would showing Alicent owning her role as QUEEN and playing the game be reminiscent of Cersei and thus "repetitive"? Yes. Would it make a better story? Yes. I'm sorry, but it is the truth.

There is absolutely no fucking way to make the page scene make sense. It will never make sense. A ruler that has just been usurped has the chance to execute the traitor and doesn't do it because the traitor shows her a page of a book. Right. She has just lost her baby because of them, she has lost her father, she has lost her throne, she has lost everything that was important to the life she has been sharing for ages with a man and their 20 children but a page would matter to her more than all of these things put together. Right. You can call this an uber sophisticated/inspired lesbian drama/women being caught in the crossfire of men's wars or whatever you want it to call it but it will never, ever be a better moment than "Tell my half-brother I'll have my throne or I'll have his head". It will never be a better story, not because it is more or less politically conservative/progessive, but for the simple reason that it is nonsensical. Whether a story makes sense or not has absolutely nothing to do with ideology. This particular moment does not resonate with basic human experience, it does not resonate with how female rulers behaved in history. It is bad, very bad writing. Daemon's "the fuck is this" is the only logical reaction to this and it is the reaction shared by the average viewer. Indeed, the fuck is this.

Thing is, you might wanna twist the raw materials of a story you consider boring/conservative/repetitive but that will never make for a better story, because there is no truth in it. """Wicked stepmothers""" existed and still exist. Good women vs bad women exist because good people vs bad people exist and women are people. Their honest confrontation rings true to the viewer in a way hotd's narrative never will. Because it makes sense. It is organic. It has a truth hotd doesn't have. And again I use this supposed dichotomy of fire and blood with a huge asterisk because Rhaenyra is not that pure perfect unfallible character. Alicent being Alicent would perhaps be a repetitive Cersei copy but she would still make a better character than whatever we got. She would perhaps have less importance in the narrative but it's okay because the story doesn't need Alicent to have that much of an importance. It is a good story regardless.

You can preach about how inspired/progressive it is to have women be forcefully carried in the middle of a men's war that they never wanted but that will never make it a better story than a Targaryen woman fighting with her half-brothers for her throne, her life and the life of her children and her husband she has spent a lifetime with.

I got this from David Mamet, On directing film, p. 60 and I think it applies well.

[backjustforberena]

Hi! I just wanted to say that I absolutely adore your takes on Rhaenys. Unironically, there are so many times where I am having A Big Thought on the subject and come on here and you have said the exact thing I do not have the words to say myself and it is wonderful.

Also, I just saw your reply to someone else who said something similarly, and I am glad to know that your current fixation on all things Eve and also Rhaenys as a character isn’t going anywhere. I always feel like I’m late to the party discovering things so I wind up missing all the good discourse and squeeing over actresses and characters, so knowing that at least for the foreseeable future you will also be out there in the world losing your shit over her is good for my soul.

Also also, I do not know if you are still taking the rose asks, but the excerpts of yours I have read from that so far are all so good. I am very (im)patiently waiting for whenever you see fit to finish the things they are a part of so I may enjoy them just as much in context as I have in snippet form!

Hello! I let this sit in my inbox for a few days just so I could keep looking at it and smiling broadly. What a lovely, lovely thing to say and to take the time to write.

I'm glad that you've enjoyed my meta, thoughts and opinions about Rhaenys. She's just a character that's got a very big hold on me at the moment (along with her husband and her relationships with others) and no one in my real life actually watches HOTD for me to talk to them about it, and not in this detail! So Tumblr is a great place to really indulge in all that sort of thing, and get genuine debate and engagement from others who may be feeling the same way. And it's a creative outlet, as much as anything else, with the fic and the gifs and all of that. I really love it.

You're not late with me! And the good thing about Tumblr is that the internet is permanent. If you are interested in meta and thoughts and all that stuff, then you can search my blog. A lot of tagged with "bad meta" because I like being ironic, or else with the character name. And, honestly, I'm always happy to re-hash. You could come into my inbox any time.

I've always got something percolating, fic-wise, and, for being so lovely and nice, here's a longer extract of something - it's an AU in which, in Episode 01, Viserys summons Rhaenys over Rhaenyra, and offers the crown to her. A lot of the time, I do "what-ifs" to explore the politics and the interpersonal relationships. This one has been a doozy to actually finish because, as you can read, Rhaenys is basically thinking Viserys is out of his mind - that it can't be done:

I like writing Viserys and Rhaenys - the tragedy of that relationship. I don't do it often enough because, unfortunately, there will always be barriers preventing true honesty between them, which curbs any progress between them and a lot of opportunity for storytelling that's true to them.

There's always pain and distance despite deep love. This delves into that a little bit but because Viserys needs Rhaenys to see his earnestness, and they are in private, and he needs her to accept his plan (giving her the crown), the walls come down a bit. So, for example, in this, after this extract, Viserys actually asks her why she never had more children. And she's actually honest about it.

It's fun to explore. Asking yourself questions.

[ladyofthebears]

Boundaries for my page:

PLEASE READ BEFORE FOLLOWING AND INTERACTING

ASOIAF:

I fully believe that the first men are meant to be representative of indigenous people. If you dont agree with my thoughts, thats fine but do not insult what i believe or come onto my page to say any form of racist comment about it. I will block you immediately.

I fancast my fic and cast in the same way that the Brandy Cinderella casting director operated meaning, if a characters race is important to that characters story and experience, they will specifically be that race, otherwise, I cast whomever i believe fits the image in my head, no matter what race or ethnic background they may have. If you say hateful things about this or who I cast due to their culture or background, you will be blocked.

I also think this fandom is horribly anti- black and I will call you on it and block you if i believe you are stating said hateful views. (I mean anti black as in anti black people and using characters like Laena, Baela, and Rhaena as torture porn or pawns because of their blackness and being women.)

I am team Black but I am anti abuser in everyway, meaning not only am I anti Aegon ii, Aemond, Daeron, Otto, and Viserys, I am also staunchly anti Daemon. I am willing to have civilised discourse about the dance, but will block you if you try to justify any abuse performed by any characters or celebrate said abuse. This includes people who rejoice at the “Bastard blood” line or think the Velayron boys death was justified. This includes people who fantasise about torturing or assualting any characters but specifically the children in HOTD. This ESPECIALLY includes people who rejoice at Blood and Cheese. You will be blocked and I will not be sorry for it.

I know a lot of asoif lore but have not read the books due to my own CPTSS diagnosis and due to the triggering material in said books. If i make a mistake lore wise, please kindly let me know and I will fix it post haste.

I am not here to fight with people on my take of the book or shows. I will tell you my opinion, and if you wish to discuss yours and why you think that way, and can do so kindly, i will gladly talk to you. But at the end of the day, when i post my opinion, I am merely doing so to have an outlet on which to voice my thoughts in a way I am not able to in real life due to my not having many irl friends who have seen hotd or got.

Not Fandom related:

I am pro Palestine and find the unneeded killing of any innocent life deplorable. I am not here to argue about my political views. If you post any kind of hateful, islamphobic, or palestinian phobic comments under my posts, I will block you.

Overall:

If you post or reply with any Homophobic, Racist, Misogynistic, or any generally hateful thing under my posts, I will block you.

This is not up for discussion. My views are my own and if you find them to be harsh and unreasonable, feel free to block me and never interact with me again. I am here on Tumblr to interact with people from the fandom and to get my fanfic out there. I am not here to validate that people deserve to live even if they are different because that should go without saying. If you cannot respect my outlined boundaries, if you cannot be respectful to other people under my posts, if you cannot allow others to have different opinions then you on such trivial things as a made up world- please do not interact with me.

I know i have very few followers and most people rarely see my posts, but i do not care. These are things that are important to me and I feel if I am unable to speak them, I would be a hypocrite of the highest order. I hope to create a safe space on my page where peaceful and kind discussions can be had.

Much love

O’Leigh Fredericke

[lovelykhaleesiii]

can I just say this fandom is getting so ... toxic and out of hand I go to twitter there's shit, I come to tumblr there's more shit 🤡 honestly the hate towards actors and even amongst fans, and creators be it art, fanfic or whatever... Is so disgusting... It's like either you have to agree with every single world someone says or else you're the enemy and get told you should go kys or worse... the racism towards poc actors and overall bully behaviour makes me mad af ... ppl forget how they are just doing their jobs, they don't write the scripts they just act them out...

I haven't interacted with fandom for months now, given the amount discourse between writers had me shook, so basically blocked every account that showed up on dash regarding it all, but with season 2 coming I thought hey why not see how things are... Idk it's like nothing changed for some folk ... They still hate Emma for not being the Rhaenyra they want, the hate Olivia for just playing her part, they hate tom because ... the poor man is playing a controversial character ... They hate Bethany for being a woc ...

Sorry for the rant, I've just been so frustrated with seeing everything... Plan to block all hotd tags and certain creators because honestly I just pop by on tumblr to browse through things and sometimes read a fic or two but lately the amount of bad behaviour I've seen in this fandom from writers or just random hateful folk have just ruined the whole experience for me.

I totally get you nonnie & I’m so sorry you feel this way, especially with s2 just days away from airing…

I do think as unfortunate as it is, majority of this fandom is actually quite heinous and disgusting. the behaviour I’ve seen towards the cast members and towards each other in this space is so hostile and vile, I’m openly ashamed to be part of it. all this back and forth bullshit with TG vs TB is just actual fucking nonsense. like who gives an actual shit? there’s an entire genocide happening but let’s ignore that and rip each other’s heads off about fictional people… humanity at its finest.

I’m actually being deadass when I say, I’m so over this discourse between the teams regarding HOTD. like no team is better than the other, that was the whole point of the story.

hence why, I’m trying to remove myself a little bit from the fandom space especially on tumblr. only trying to focus my energy and interest into the story / show itself.

after all the drama that unfolded especially in this fandom these last few months, there’s a lot of hypocritical behaviour and I’ve honestly got no energy anymore.

more important things in life than arguing with twats on the internet.

so I definitely recommend removing yourself from toxic people in this fandom, whether you need to ghost or block them. you’ll be saving yourself 🫶🏻

sending you only good vibes anon, and I hope you can find some solace in my little corner. that’s what I can offer to anyone that feels the same!

[lemonhemlock]

The one ASOIAF tiktoker I really enjoyed and had some of the best takes on ASOIAF and HOTD put out a tiktok a few weeks back basically stating that she was either going to no longer post HOTD content or limit it severely because of the hate she got from female fans of Dany and Rhaenyra lmaoo (she didn't say their names directly but it was obvious which character's fans were the issue). This tiktoker is a dark dany believer and was also sympathetic to Alicent and made some incredibly milquetoast critiques of Rhaenyra. Oh course she got hit with 'you're being sexist and using the world building to hide behind your sexism' critiques from #that fandom.

Side note, I do think it's funny how people want to always blame male ASOIAF fans as being The Most Problematic, when some of the worst behavior and most misogynistic hate towards female characters has come from fellow female fans. But that's another conversation lol.

I want to preface this by saying that I have no idea who this girl is, as I don't really remember encountering Dark!Dany truthers in my FYP, but it's good to know they're out there, at least. Doing the Lord's work.

I am kind of torn on this issue, as I imagine that receiving hate mail on an account more closely associated with your real identity is going to sting much more than it would if you were just an anonymous blog on the internet. So I totally get why she'd feel like it's not worth it bothering with that side of the fandom and just bow out. But, at the same time, there's that combative gremlin in me that's outraged at the idea of not being able to comment on such a big part of the text. Like, in a very I'm-not-gonna-let-those-losers-tell-ME-what-to-do way. (And this is very much not me instructing people how to deal with hate & harassment, just more of a general observation, I suppose.)

Additionally, I've spoken about this before, but I don't really know how much it applies to ASOIAF Tik Tokers. Another thing I find tedious is how these commentary channels come to pander to the prevailing discourse in the process of monetization. And, I get it, late stage capitalism is a bummer, so making money off of your hobby looks very attractive, but imagine having to depend on unhinged Dany stans for your next paycheck. It boggles the mind. It's very hard to keep to your true opinions and takes when you've come to rely on this stream of income and it's always going to be more profitable to play up to the masses. This is why I appreciate channels like Hills Alive that persevere despite receiving psychotic backlash.

I agree that female ASOIAF fans definitely love their bit of sexism when it comes to harassing other female fans who don't toe the party line, but I don't really know who to pick when it comes to toxicity. The dudebro reddit/forum dregs were pretty awful back in the day, too, you only have to look up any conversation on Cersei and Sansa and observe their foul language and cretin diatribes.

[surveillance-0011]

I recently got to the HOTD fandom and I saw @hollybluberry's and others devil concept and I had a question which is

what are your headcanons on @hollybluberry's and the other devil concepts people made?

ah oops sorry im getting to this late!!

i don't really have too many head canons for other people's devil concepts,, but off the top of my head

@hollybluberry devil:

friendly but takes no shit

spends a lot of time preening their wings.

Enjoys the sun (odd since many creatures who are more nocturnal) but also fond of clear nights and looking at stars

Points out constellations and the like while stargazing. Holds up Tower to the sky and points to Ophiuchus and is like "look it's you!!" It's like holding up a cat to the Sphinx

Has tried to point out Lacerta to Heirophant with even less success.

gets upset/disappointed seeing the other bosses fight (ive always headcanoned that all together the bosses usually don't get along too well with only the handful of factions/little groups getting along... better??) and often has to break things up. I assume they'd listen to her.

As Blu mentioned Magician and Hangedman have seen her angry and consequentially they're a Bit Scared. Magician isn't visibly frightened but treats them with a lot of respect and is uncharacteristically agreeable+polite with them. Hangedman has started to avoid her, on the other hand, immediately stopping what he's doing if he looks over to see her looking peeved. He's like. actually fucking terrified of her and he's not someone who really gets scared all that much. So it's a bit strange and he won't elaborate on why he's so scared of them.

Most creatures are intimidated by her but none are actively hostile towards her. Some of the bosses don't always approve but it's hard to stay mad at her because she's much more gentle/lax and levelheaded relative to the others.

Likes sweet snacks with fruit.

hates thornheart and pities curien/wheel of fate, though she's not gentle with him either. WOF isn't intimidated by her at all though, though whether or not he's seen her angry or not is hard to say.

Moon, on the other hand, thinks all the eyes are cute. I mean, moon's self preservation skills are dogshit and he's biased since he's got three eyes, but hey.

Assuming that a boss fight with her, knowing how she'd let them win, would maybe have a phase where she fights out of fear or being hijacked by Thornheart?

Generally full of whimsy and curiosity for the world around them and wishes to see more of the world, and how it was before humanity fell.

@pixelcoin devil:

aggro towards most humans. Cool with creatures and other lab grown undead etc as long as they don't show aggression first

Still, anyone who could prove their worth may be shown mercy...

Kind and polite to their few closest allies

also annoyed by any fights between the bosses. much more... assertive in their ways of breaking up any discourse (read:mauling)

they get injured in the antics just as frequently though, so it balances stuff out.

a little silly. we stay silly

finds zeal and other smaller creatures cute, much to their chagrin. Especially zeal's chagrin, but he does appreciate being seen as endearing and doted upon rather than treated like some pest.

Wasn't like that at first, though. There was not a good first impression. Devil still calls him out on his bullshit now too, but he's forgiven a bit easier than most.

Also i am sure zeal is getting the (metaphorically speaking here hopefully) Webkinz Milk Plush Treatment. to be loved is to be changed.

Kuarl is not amused by this.

Strength kind of is.

Belligerent and high energy. Also a bitch to deal with when they get mad. much more violent than Blu's Devil, I assume.

A total powerhouse, often unaware of their full strength. Many an accidental energy beam shot through a wall....

Their eyes get stuck outta their head a lot. Magician is skeeved out to hell and back every time this happens but tries (and fails) not to show it as Devil often goes to him for help

Devil is a sort of tentative leader? They're treated as one of the big men on campus, yknow, but I think with their youth they may have some power struggles or find themself pushed around by the more domineering ones like Emperor or Moon.

Goatlike mannerisms but only really eats meat.

Hangedman isn't as put off by this one...for... don't know actually. Then again this Devil is more like the baby of the curien-thornheart-goldman fucked up family of all time so?? idk??

i think both the devils would manage to kind of sort of get along. hopefully. i would like them to :3c

[ladystarksneedle]

God I don't understand how people ship Alysmond in this fandom. There must be something wrong with them (perverts, I tell you).

A better ship for Aemond would be one with a dreamer, although younger (obviously). Let’s make her silver-haired and blue-eyed while we’re at it. Oh my, why not have her commit war crimes on dragonbacks alongside him like the perfect couple? 🥺👉👈 Let their romance be as darkly romantic as it can get and everyone will swoon! But wait; it gets even better! Just imagine if this woman bore his bastard children. Now THAT is truly a much better ship! Don’t you agree? Can I get a hallelujah?!

Helllooo Kalki! Congratulations on being my first discourse ask lol. I'm going to get right into it from a mixed pov. I watched the show before I read the book so you can maybe get a different perspective of my views on this ship. Again all these opinions are my own, I don't condone or promote any ship, merely like and comment on what I find interesting.

So when I first watched Hotd I thought Aemond and Helaena were cute. They were cute as siblings when they were younger and have an easy going, intriguing dynamic when they're older. Helaena seemed to be comfortable in his presence when one of the kings guard's brought Aemond to Alicent's chambers and Aemond was seemingly fond of his sister in episode 7 when he says he would do his duty by her. Now I personally interpreted it as something not romantic. Aemond from the get go has been shown to be heavily influenced by Alicent and his own traditions as a Targaryen. He's a stickler for duty and he sees Aegon shun every opportunity handed to him which he so desperately craves. He craves a dragon at that point, he craves a position which is worthy of him, respect and validation. Helaena along with being his sister, seems as a means or an added advantage being conferred to him were he in Aegon's position instead. She's his sister, he's close to her, he cares for her and he'll treat her much better than Aegon would along with the other duties Aegon's been bestowed with by order of his birth.

When they grow up we see Helaena and Aemond again comfortable in each other's presence. She looks up at him to seek comfort in moments of distress and he looks out for her when they are "at a threat" from the opposing faction. So for me, there was no obvious element of romance but again they're Targaryens so who knows? Siblings don't sibling like normal ones do🤷‍♀️

Now after I read the book and found out Helaena and Aemond had minimal to no interaction in it, my opinion changed drastically. All of her character exploration there revolves around Aegon, Alicent, her children and even Rhaenyra. Aemond is barely mentioned in relation to her.

Now if the show wanted to completely invent something new again they could, but to me personally, it would be a huge let down, not only because it takes away from the intresting and conflicted relationship Helaena and Aegon have in the books but also because I feel it goes completely against her combined, meshed book and show charcterisation.

Helaena is shown to be a dreamer on the show. That's something new they added which doesn't deviate so much from her book charcterisation. She's gentle, kind and has a strength which shines through her softness. She is feminine and strong. No pun intended. In the book she's depicted as a happy mother, a sensible advisor and a beloved queen which as far as season 1 is concerned I can sort of see happening in the future too.

Now coming back to the ask, I'd like to ask why someone would want to completely change this woman's charcterisation to make her a warrior queen in the first place. I'm all for her wanting revenge after b&c. If that were the case in the books or it was done and explored well on the show I would cheer for joy. Here is a mother who's been wronged in the worst possible way wanting revenge, hell yes! But alternatively there is nothing wrong with her mourning and succumbing to grief instead and in my opinion it makes her all the more human. She's been traumatised to no extent why shouldn't anyone in her position be allowed to fall into despair without being called weak. Grieving does not make you weak. To say "let her be a warrior to show how strong she is" doesn't sit completely right with me because she's strong to me either way. She shows strength in captivity, strength in letting her children and Aegon go, despite all the horror she faces. Strength need not be of one kind, it can be through perseverance and retaining your softness. Sadly she does kill her self which is again very understandable. It doesn't make her weak. To summarise giving her another arc for the reason of making her "a strong female charcter" seems fishy to me and I don't like it's implications.

Coming to her children being Aemond's. There are many posts detailing the opening sequence of Hotd which shows the entire family tree. Anyone who wishes can clearly see the twins are not Aemond's. As far as the show is concerned I'd be highly disappointed to find out they were his because first the timelines dont match and he'd have to be a kid, younger than her to do the deed and after that questionable incident at 13 I doubt duty bound Aemond would have gone ahead with it. Secondly both Aemond and Helaena have grown up listening to Alicent secretly chastise Rhaenyra and her brood. Do you think Hightower-seven worshipper-mother's traumatised children would think of doing the same thing she berates her rival about, begetting bastatds when it was a bastard who cut out Aemond's eye. Now I'm not saying he hates them because canon wise he may have either a bastard or a true born son with alys but at present the Aemond portrayed to us would likely not indulge in activities as such and neither would Helaena.

As for alysmond. Alys by herself is an intriguing character, as well as Aemond who is my favourite after season 1. I'm not hoping for a whirlwind mills and boon romance. I would rather see a codependent, forced proximity, reluctant allies type of relationship bloom due to the circumstances they've found themselves in, which gives them solace while also driving them to insanity. I want questionable romance and jaw dropping character arcs ok. Not a fairytale.

Tldr : I like helaemond as a fanon ship. Their dynamic could have been interesting in a different scenario and the actors are two pretty people so what's not to love. As far as canon and the show is concerned, it's a no for me.