#not having the did Joel make the right decision argument

[peppermintfury]

Joel Miller: slaughters an entire hospital of people, stops the making of a vaccine that might save all of man kind, and lies to Ellie about his decision for the next 2 years.

[cowgurrrl]

Never Thought

Pairing: rockstar!joel miller x actress!reader

Author’s note: IM A GODDAMN MACHINE also fic named after this song :D

Summary: You meet the Millers [3.5k]

Warnings: questionable Hollywood motives, Joel being vulnerable, the cutest goddamn found family, probably incorrect foster case/adoption timeline, talks of the foster care system, Tommy being a little shit, yearning idiots

Trouble in Paradise? Everything We Know About the Fight Between Everyone's Favorite Couple

Joel Miller Spotted Landing in LAX ALONE

Lucky Guitarist in Central Park Saw Joel Miller and Girlfriend Before Leaving Her in NYC: "They looked pretty in love when I saw them."

"Do you realize how bad this looks?!" Melanie asks as she paces behind her desk. You sigh and pinch the bridge of your nose, fighting a headache, as she spirals. "Rumors are flying around that you guys had a massive argument backstage at the Tonight Show, and he left because he was pissed at you." 

"That's not even close to what happened." You say, and she throws her arms up.

"Please, tell me what happened then because I've been fielding calls from major news outlets wanting to know what we have to say." 

"His kid had an emergency. He went home early to take care of her. We didn't argue or have a falling out or anything like that. We actually had a really nice time."

"What kind of emergency?" She asks with a hawk-like determination in her eyes. Times like this make you realize that you never want to get on Melanie's bad side. When she's like this, she's absolutely lethal.

"I don't know." You shrug.

"You don't know?"

"It's not like we had a chance to talk about it! I did the interview, and by the time I was done, he was already on the way to the airport. He texted me that night to apologize and let me know that something was happening with his youngest."

"And it couldn't have been handled without him? If she needed her dad to come all the way home, she better have a fucking good reason."

"She's fourteen, Mel!" You snap, tired of hearing how much his leaving early affected her when something happened with his family. "Jesus Christ, she's a baby, and you're talking about her like she's an adult, which, even if she was, she has a right to call her dad for help," you say. She crosses her arms over her chest as she thinks, and you grab your bag from your chair. "I know these aren't the best circumstances, but I'm not gonna sit here and listen to you blame a child for a decision her father made." You wait for her to say more or argue with you, but she doesn't. You take a deep breath and reach for the door, more than ready to leave her and this conversation here.

"Why do you suddenly care so much about his kid?" She asks suddenly, and you turn to face her, your hand lingering on the doorknob. It feels like she's looking through you. Like she knows exactly what happened in New York but is waiting to see if you'll voluntarily come forward with it. "Wasn't a part of the contract to get involved with families." You shake your head and open the door.

"Then you shouldn't have paired me up with him." You say and leave her office. You're breathless by the time you get to your car. You've never left a conversation with Melanie like that, but you've also never heard her talk about a kid like that. It made your skin crawl to listen to her blame Ellie for just needing her dad. When the fuck did Hollywood get so ruthless that they have to use a fourteen-year-old as their scapegoat for something that's really not that big of a deal? 

You're fuming the whole way back to your house, and the LA traffic doesn't do anything to settle the anger in your chest. It's been three days since you got home from New York, and communication with Joel has been sparse. He let you know that he and the girls were okay and apologized again for leaving so abruptly, but that's been the extent of your conversation. Which is fine. You have laundry to do and scripts to read through. You're fine to keep busy, but sleep is a little harder to manage. 

You didn't realize that a couple nights sleeping in his arms would affect you so much. Now, every time you crawl into bed, the only thing you can think of is how big it is. Your dreams constantly replay your shared moments in New York, laughing together in the shower, walking hand-in-hand in Central Park, and the creases in the corners of his eyes. You didn't even realize that you were leaving space for a body that wasn't there until last night when you rolled into the cold space reserved for Joel and waited to hit his sleeping figure. For half a second, you considered getting a dog just so the house doesn't feel so empty.

You're folding laundry in your living room when your phone pings, interrupting the podcast you were listening to. You reach for it without a second thought, which you probably should've, considering you're still mad at Melanie, and see a text from Joel.

What are you doing tonight?

Joel Miller, you type. Are you trying to booty-call me?

Do you want me to booty-call you?

Maybe.

Well, I hate to disappoint, but I was gonna ask you to come visit the studio. I've got something I think you'll really like.

What's in it for me?

You leave your phone on the couch as you run upstairs to put your clean laundry away. You rush around your bedroom, stripping off the oversized, stained t-shirt you were wearing and putting on a vintage Talking Heads shirt with a pair of ripped jeans. You take a second to look at yourself in the mirror, smoothing down stray flyaways and swiping a layer of mascara on before running back downstairs. You feel like a teenager getting ready to see the boy she likes, and something in the back of your head wants to be annoyed, but nothing can bat away the butterflies in your stomach. As you grab your purse and shoes, your phone lights up on the couch.

I've got a couple surprises up my sleeve.

Attachment: Location

You smile and tell him you're leaving now. His studio is in the heart of West Hollywood, and you have to stop at a security gate before you're allowed to park in the back next to Joel's car. Somewhere beyond the gates, a camera flashes as you enter the building and follow the studio numbers until you get to the one Joel told you he'd be in. You knock lightly on the door, trying to be polite, but someone on the other side rips the door open abruptly. A big laugh sounds from the other side, and suddenly you're face-to-face with a young man with long dark curls and big brown eyes. 

"Oh, hi. I'm sorry, I'm looking for..." you trail off, glancing inside the studio until you make eye contact with Joel. He smiles and waves you in. "Him."

"Oh, you must be the girl Joel's been hidin' from us!" The man in front of you sends Joel a look as he opens the door wider to let you in, a similar twang peeking through his voice. When you fully step into the room, two girls are sitting on the couch across from Joel's chair at the soundboard, and you immediately recognize them as Sarah and Ellie. Sarah looks up and sends you a soft smile while Ellie stays focused on the rubber band she's wrapping around her fingers.

"Don't you go scarin' her! We wanna keep this one," Joel says as he stands and walks over to you. "This is my brother, Tommy. Don't pay him any mind." He says, and Tommy takes one of your hands in both of his and shakes it. 

"Pleasure to meet you," Tommy says, and you smile, your brain finally catching you with the fact that you're meeting Joel's family.

"It's nice to meet you, too," you recover. "I didn't know all the Miller men were so handsome!"

"Oh, I like her,"

"Alright, that's enough," Joel scolds and you and Tommy laugh. Sarah stands and jostles Ellie as she does, making her misfire the rubber band at the soundboard, and Joel shoots her a look. She groans and stands beside Sarah, putting on a half-hearted smile. "And these are my daughters, Sarah and Ellie." 

"It's really nice to meet you. I've heard so much about you guys." 

"I wish we could say the same. This one," Sarah jerks her thumb in Joel's direction. "Is a master at dodging questions."

"Well, I love questions." You say. 

You all settle once introductions are done, and you find yourself in awe of the dynamic the four of them have. Tommy and Joel are so at ease with each other, messing around and teasing one another, but still able to have conversations about the album art or release dates. Sarah and Ellie bombard you with questions, occasionally butting into their father and uncle's conversation to give their own opinions. And their questions are not the run-of-the-mill interview questions. No, their questions are deep, thought-provoking, unique questions that you enjoy teasing out with them. Joel was right about Sarah being a little bit more extroverted because she dominates a lot of the conversation, which you love and tell her as much.

"So many people are afraid to ask about things they're really passionate about, so it's cool to see you be so curious." You say, and a little blush takes over her cheeks. 

"Thanks," she says. "I'm glad you don't think I talk too much."

"Not at all. I like hearing what you have to say." You say and watch as she fights a smile. You catch Joel's eyes watching over you and the girls, something flashing behind his irises, and you nod to let him know you're okay.

Ellie is a little quieter but really likes hearing about the more technical part of filming something. You tell her all you know about cameras and sound equipment, even promising to take her to set with you one day to show her everything because Lord knows the industry could use more women in production. Eventually, she feels comfortable enough to slump next to you in all her teenage posture, still fiddling with the rubber band.

"Want me to show you something?" You ask quietly, and she furrows her brows before nodding. You reach for the rubber band, which she reluctantly passes to you, and you slide down to copy her position on the couch. "So, the key to this is aim. Power isn't super important, but it's always a little bit more fun," you instruct as you slide the rubber band over your index finger and thumb. "So, what you want to do is lock onto your target, pull this back, and then let it go. Like this," You go over the steps slowly before aiming the rubber band at Joel's head and snapping back, sending it flying through the air until it hits him.

"Ow! The hell?" Joel screeches, and you and Ellie laugh. 

"That was amazing!" Sarah giggles beside you, and you three dissolve into stupid, silly laughter. Tommy shakes his head and looks at Joel with a smile.

"You gonna let them do that to you?" He asks, and Joel takes a deep breath, taking in the sight of the three of you having the time of your life on the couch.

"'M outnumbered now."

"Sure are."

As the night progresses and you and the girls further slip into delirious giggles, you feel more and more comfortable with them. You're not sure what you thought would happen if and when you met them, but this is so easy and fun. Sarah tells you about the colleges she's applying to, and Ellie complains about her fingers hurting from trying to learn to play guitar. You advise Sarah about applications and even offer to read over some of her admissions essays, citing your BFA as your sole qualification. You're about to ask Ellie to play for you when Joel checks the time on his watch and slaps his hand over the watch's face. 

"Alright, 's gettin' late, and you guys have school in the morning."

"But Dad!" Ellie protests, and he shakes his head.

"No buts. You gotta get some sleep. Uncle Tommy'll take you home."

"Dad doesn't like when I drive. Like at all," Sarah says, and you laugh.

"No, Dad doesn't like when you drive, and it's ten o'clock in the city with the world's worst drivers." He corrects, and she rolls her eyes. Despite their little arguing, both girls walk over to Joel and give him hugs and kisses before following Tommy out the door.

"Hey," He gets Joel's attention as he stands in the threshold of the door, and Joel raises his eyebrows at him. "You bring her round more often, you hear?"

"I'll make sure he does." You say, and Tommy smiles at you, winking before he finally leaves. The second the door closes, Joel gets up from his chair and walks over to where you're sitting.

"Hi," he says quietly as he leans over you and kisses you sweetly. You hum against his lips, and he collapses next to you, grabbing your legs and resting them on his lap.

"Thanks for the heads up, by the way. Are your parents here too, or is it just them?"

"Why? You wanna meet 'em?" He asks, and you slap his arm. "They really liked you."

"You think so?" You ask, and he nods, gently squeezing your ankle.

"I know so. I haven't heard Ellie laugh like that in a good while." He says, and you take a deep breath. His warm hands massage your skin, and the studio is completely still, and it feels just like it did in New York. The thought comforts something deep within you, and you reach out to play with the hair at the nape of his neck. He still needs a haircut, you think to yourself.

"Is she okay?" 

"She will be, yeah."

"What happened?" The question leaves you before you can stop, but he doesn't tense up or look panicky. He leans into your touch and focuses on the fraying hem of your jeans.

"She got in trouble at school. I still don't know the whole story 'cause she won't tell me, but she came home and took off on her bike. Tommy and Sarah drove around lookin' for her for bout an hour before they called me. They found her pretty soon after at a gas station, but it scared the shit outta me." 

"Oh, my God. That's so scary."

"Yeah," he says. "I... didn't handle it in the best way. I grounded her for a month and took away her bike. We got into a big fight about it, and I hate fightin' with her," he sighs. Even though this was days ago, you can see how much it weighs on him still. You wonder if anyone ever panicked that much about how they treated you as a child. "I thought goin' back to Texas would've helped her, but it didn't."

"They were in Texas with you?" You ask, and he nods. Suddenly, the voices in the background of your phone calls and the spottiness of your conversations make sense.

"They went a week earlier and left a week after me to keep the press off them. They also just really missed their grandparents. Figured it'd be a good idea to get 'em outta LA for a while." 

"Do their moms live in Texas too?" You get quiet as you ask about the women who brought Sarah and Ellie into the world. You may not know the whole story, but it also doesn't take a geneticist to figure out that Sarah and Ellie have different moms.

"No," he scoffs a laugh. "No, my parents are still in Texas, and Tommy lives there part-time, but that's really it."

"Where are their moms?"

"Sarah's mom left when she was a few months old. Divorced me and signed away her parental rights with the same pen. We haven't seen her since. I reach out to her folks every couple of years, but they never respond. They want nothing to do with either of us." He says, and your heart breaks for both of them. Sarah deserved to grow up with her mom, and Joel deserved to have a partner to help raise her, especially since he was so young.

"And Ellie's?"

"Never met her. Her name was Anna. The adoption agency told me she died a few hours after she gave birth. Left her a note but didn't have much else. No family, no husband, nothin'."

"Oh, I didn't know Ellie was adopted."

"It became official when she was twelve, but she's been with us since she was ten."

"Wow," you breathe, and he nods.

"Yeah," he says. "Sarah met her at school, and her foster home was just a shit hole, and she really just needed someone to take a chance on her. I still don't know why, but I got the paperwork filled out, and she was placed with us two months later. She's been with us ever since. That's also why I knew I had to come home when I heard she ran away. She used to do that to get away from her foster parents so they'd have an excuse to send her back."

"Did they?" You ask.

"Yeah. Six foster homes in two years."

"Jesus Christ."

"It's a lot. I know it is. That's why I didn't tell you bout them earlier. I didn't want to scare you off," he shrugs. "Plus, they're why I punched that photographer." He says like it's common knowledge, and you sit up. You remember Joel and Paul arguing about something when you walked into the room months ago, but you never asked about what. You also never asked him why he punched the pap because it didn't feel like your place. 

"What?"

"The guy showed up at Ellie's school. He was tryin' to get pictures of her when the only thing she's done wrong is have my last name. He was yellin' things at me and asking me about her, and I just… snapped," he explains, shaking his head. "It's not right. I shouldn't have done it, but they're my girls. If I can't protect them, then I've got nothin'." You watch tears glisten in his eyes, and you push onto your knees to cup his face.

"You're a good dad, Joel. Possibly one of the best ones out there, okay? And you're not a criminal for losing your temper with your fourteen-year-old," you say. "Ellie's a teenager, and she's been through a lot. You all have. But those beautiful, intelligent, funny, amazing girls love you with everything that they are. I can see that, and I only spent a few hours with them today. They are good people because you're a good person," You stare into his eyes, hoping that the words will imprint in his brain, and he believes it as much as you do. You think Joel Miller could use someone believing in how good he can be. You think he needs it. You think he deserves it. "You are a good person." You whisper, and he takes a deep breath. 

He rests his hands on your hips, and you move closer to him, resting your knees on either side of his hips and sitting in his lap. You kiss away the stray tears from his cheeks and feel him relax under your touch. You're sure that you'll need to tell him over and over again how good of a dad he is after so many years of just barely surviving, and you're okay with that. You'll tell him as many times as it takes him to believe it. 

He catches your lips before you can get far and kisses you firmly like he's trying to show you everything he wants to say instead of speaking. He tastes like salt and cigarettes as he fiddles with the hem of your shirt, his fingers brushing against your stomach. There's nothing sexual about it. He just wants to be close to you, and you want the same. He traces patterns into your lower back, his hands splaying across your sides, and you bury your face in his neck. It's quiet and soft and almost domestic the way you two are cuddled into each other. As if you've been together for years, and this is how you greet each other after being away for so long. You inhale his scent and try to make out the shapes he's pressing into your skin. 

"I wish I'd met you sooner." He says quietly, the words halfway lost in your hair. You kiss his jaw and squeeze him a little tighter.

"Me too," you mumble. "'M here now. I'm not going anywhere." And for once, instead of arguing or coming up with a reason to refuse to absorb what you're saying, he just nods.

"I know." 

[penportrayal]

The Art of Picking Your Battles: Not Every Fight is Yours to Win

In the chaotic theater of life, it's easy to fall into the trap of believing that every battle that comes our way is meant for us to fight. We often find ourselves donning our metaphorical armor, ready to charge into the fray. But what if I told you that not every battle is yours to fight? In this blog, we'll explore the wisdom of choosing our battles wisely, with a touch of humor, a sprinkle of statistics, and a dash of life-changing advice.

"Every battle is not yours to fight; you have to pick your battles."

— Joel Osteen

Joel Osteen's words echo a universal truth: not every skirmish deserves your time, energy, and sanity. Let's dive into why this is the case, with a bit of statistical insight.

The Statistics Behind Picking Battles:

Did you know that an average person makes around 35,000 decisions every day? That's right, 35,000! Some of these decisions are as trivial as choosing what to wear or eat, while others are more substantial, like career choices or relationship decisions.

Now, consider this: studies show that the more decisions we make, the worse our decision-making abilities become over time. It's called decision fatigue. Just like a muscle that tires out, our brains get exhausted from making too many choices. When we engage in unnecessary battles, we're essentially adding more weights to an already overburdened decision-making muscle. Imagine carrying a heavy backpack filled with unnecessary burdens. This is what happens when we choose to engage in every battle that comes our way, whether it's an argument with a loved one, a workplace conflict, or even societal issues.

So, what can we do about it?

1. Prioritize Battles Like You're Packing for a Trip

Think of life as a journey, and battles as items you need to pack. Not everything in your closet makes it into your suitcase when you travel, right? Similarly, not every problem or conflict should be allowed into your mental suitcase. Prioritize the ones that truly matter.

2. Seek the Big Picture Perspective

Imagine you're in a traffic jam. Frustration sets in, and you're tempted to honk and express your displeasure at every driver who dares to cut you off. But take a step back and ask yourself: will honking at every offender make the traffic move any faster? The big-picture perspective often reveals that engaging in these minor skirmishes won't lead to any significant change.

3. Embrace the Power of 'No'

As humans, we often find it challenging to say 'no.' Whether it's a coworker asking for a favor or a friend asking for your time, we hesitate to decline. But remember, saying 'no' is not a sign of weakness; it's a sign of wisdom. It's your way of preserving your mental energy and directing it toward battles that genuinely matter.

4. Let Go of Perfectionism

Have you ever found yourself obsessing over making something absolutely perfect? Whether it's a work project, a home-cooked meal, or a personal goal, the pursuit of perfection can be exhausting. It's like trying to hit a constantly moving target. And guess what? Perfectionism is a battle in itself, one that can drain your energy and leave you feeling defeated.

Remember that not everything needs to be flawless. Sometimes, good enough is indeed good enough. By letting go of the need for perfection in every aspect of your life, you free up valuable mental space and time to focus on what truly matters to you.

5. Focus on Self-Care

Engaging in every battle, big or small, can take a toll on your mental well-being. Prioritize self-care to ensure you have the strength to fight the battles that are worth your time and effort.

Think about your mental and emotional well-being as a precious resource. Just like you'd take care of your physical health, it's essential to prioritize self-care for your mental health too. The statistics show that millions of adults struggle with mental health issues, and it's a reminder that we all need to take steps to protect our well-being.

When you engage in every battle that comes your way, big or small, you risk depleting your mental and emotional reserves. By picking your battles wisely and taking time for self-care, you ensure that you have the strength and resilience to face life's challenges with grace and composure.

So, the next time you find yourself tempted to dive into a trivial argument or take on someone else's drama, remember this: not every battle is yours to fight. Choose wisely, preserve your energy, and focus on what truly matters in your unique journey through life. Your future self will thank you for it, and you'll find greater joy and fulfillment along the way.

[eddyxftz]

ꕀ ᐝ 𖠳 theo james, cis man, he&him 𖠳 ᐝ ꕀ ‷ heads up ; if you hear MY LIFE by BILLY JOEL blaring, it’s most likely EDWARD FITZGERALD making their way down the shore ! they’re 36 years old and celebrate their birthday on 01/01 - i knew they were a CAPRICORN ! especially since they’re very CHARMING and IMPULSIVE. they are from PORT ST. LUCIE, FL, staying in DOWNTOWN and are currently working as a TOUR GUIDE, here at the cape. they always did remind me of long boozy boat rides, late night beach trips, and buying a round for the entire bar |||| tw: death

Stats

Full Name: Edward Alexander Thomas Fitzgerald

Nickname(s): Eddy, Fitz.

Age/Date Of Birth: Thirty Six/1st January

Gender/Pronouns: Cis Man, He/him

Height: 6''

Sexuality: Bisexul

Occupation: Tour Guide

Parents: Alexander & Maria Fitzgerald

Siblings: Alex(39), Margot(26), Phillip(21)

Personality:

Zodiac Sign: Capricorn

Positive Traits: Confident, Modest, Generous.

Negative Traits: Impulsive, Impatient, Argumentative.

Hobbies: Sailing, Drinking & Jogging.

Likes: Boats, Classic Movies, Breakfast Food, 70s Music.

Dislikes: Flying, Rude Customers, Show Offs, Loud People.

Biography:

Edward was born into a wealthy family. His father was the owner of one of the biggest publishing empires in America, a role that had been handed down in the Fitzgerald family for generations.

His family was rich but Edward had always had a very different relationship with money than them. He never made any insanely large purchases, and never told people about his wealth.

Edward always had a very strained relationship with the other members of his immediate family, especially his father. His dad was extremely boastful about his wealth and careless with money. Something that never sat right with Eddy.

Edward always had a much closer bond with his Grandfather, who seemed to have a similar mindset to Eddy, and often told him about how much he regretted spoiling Edward's father as a child.

He spent many summers with his grandparents, choosing to visit them rather than go on lavish holidays with his family.

Edward and his grandfather bonded over their shared love of sailing, and the two would spend hours on his grandad's yacht.

In high school he was popular, well liked by everybody around him, but he was constantly at war with himself about whether people liked him for him, or for how much money his family had.

Eddy went to college to study History, mostly to keep his parents off his back since he still had no clue what he wanted to do in life.

As soon as he graduated he moved to Florida to try and distance himself from his family name and his father's watchful eyes.

When he was around twenty four his grandfather gifted him with his old yacht as an early birthday present and to spite Edward's father who had always wanted it to sell.

Edward loved it and spent months fixing it up and repairing it until it was truly sea worthy again. After he had had some fun sailing around the coast and partying with a few close friends on it, he decided he'd put it to some use and began giving boat tours to local tourists.

A few months into his tour guide gid he met Chayce. Eddy had never been much of a relationship guy since he always struggle to trust people so easily, but Chayce was different. It started off as hook ups and developed into a relationship quite quickly. They dated for a few a year or two and everything was going great, until Eddy had to leave.

His grandfather had gotten sick so Eddy decided to go and take care of him, considering all that man had done for him. Him and Chayce tried to make it work long distance, but eventually Edward decided it was best to break things off.

It wasn't an easy decision for Edward and it did take it's toll, but he knew deep down it was the right choice to make.

After almost four years of caring for his grandfather he unfortunately passed away. Leaving almost his entire fortune exclusively to Edward.

Edward's family was not happy about this at all, especially his father but it was what Eddy's grandfather wanted and there was no way he'd disrespect his grandfather's wishes.

Eddy was practically shunned by his father not long after all of this, and though he had never had much of a relationship or a liking for the man, it did hurt a little how quickly his siblings and even his mother followed suit.

He decided to not dwell on it for too long though and sailed his grandfathers boat around the east coast until he ended up in Cape May.

He now gives guided boat tours to tourists based on a few quick facts he got from google, but it's really Eddy's charm and charisma that keep customers coming back for more.

Other Stuff/Random Shit:

Edward lives in an apartment in Downtown that he shares with Leon Amos. He could easily afford one of the pricier houses in Cape May but likes to keep his living arrangements more simple and modest, and he loves having a room mate.

He hasn't spoken to any of his family members since his grandfathers funeral, but often debates reaching out to his siblings though he's unsure he'd even get a response.

He's extremely generous and giving, especially when he's drunk and has been known to pay an entire bar's tab when he's in a good enough mood.

His music tastes is very 60's & 70's orientated. He loves anything Billy Joel, Presley or Fleetwood Mac related and is known for blasting music off of his boat late at night.

He doesn't just use his boat for tours, he sometimes rents it out to locals who just want a trip around the Cape and anybody who wants to party and doesn't mind paying the damage.

He isn't the greatest driver and has crashed the boat several times in the last couple of months, but will never let anybody else drive it, ever, no matter what.

tbc

Wanted Connections

Regular Customers

Ex(Hook Ups, Dates, FWB)

Best Friend

ANYTHING.

[vaspider]

If you think that Joel was wrong, I don't want you anywhere near me.

Let's talk about the last episode.

I'm going to say right up front that I'm a parent, and I'm a survivor of medical abuse, so I'm not going to brook any bullshit or clownery in the notes of this post. I block easily and freely, and if what I say in this post makes you feel sad or defensive, I encourage you to sit with those feelings and interrogate why you're feeling so defensive, because to me, this is extremely cut and dry.

Joel was right. Marlene was wrong. There is no argument to be had here, because this is the Trolley Problem, With Zombies!

Let me be clear: there is no world in which I let them do anything like that to my child, but more importantly, there is no world in which I let them do that to Cat without her active, informed consent. That's where there's no argument to be had. That's where it is open and shut, no discussion, if you think that there is an argument you are just wrong.

There is no nuance on this for me, and that's probably because I am a victim of medical abuse, doctors doing things to me without my informed consent. I find it hard to empathize with people who think there's any nuance in it at all, however. You cannot build a new, just world on the abuse, medical rape, and murder of a child. You just can't. This is the Trolley Problem writ large, and the only moral answer is that the only way to do that would be with Ellie's informed, active consent.

There are decisions my daughter has made which changed her life forever, and made it (at minimum) much, much more difficult, and which might shorten her lifespan or kill her. I supported her in this because she made that decision. It was not made for her. So I have absolutely clear-eyed perspective on this as a parent, and I don't think there's room for another perspective.

Oh, so people might die if Ellie isn't at minimum lobotomized and at worst killed? Yeah, that's the same argument that forced birthers make. No one has a right to any part of my body or anything within it without my consent, and saying otherwise is exactly the same argument that the people who think that people shouldn't be able to get abortions make, it only differs in scale.

It reminds me of the old joke where a man asks a woman if she'd sleep with him for a million dollars, and she agrees, and he says, okay, so what about five dollars? The woman gets irate and says "what kind of woman do you take me for?" And the man replies, "We've already established what kind of woman you are, now we're just haggling over price."

If generic-you think it's okay to take Ellie's body and use it without her permission to save a million people, you're the same kind of person who thinks it's okay to force someone to carry a pregnancy to term. It's already been established that you think that people don't have a right to their body if someone else "needs" it, so we know what kind of person you are. Now we're just haggling over the price. I know that's wording it very strongly and I stand by it, because I've dealt with exactly this kind of paternalistic nonsense, and it did almost kill me. No one is justified in making any decisions about my body but me. Period.

And before we have folx coming in here talking about vaccines, etc.? Listen. If I choose not to vaccinate myself, and I'm excluded from things as a result, then that's a decision that I have made. I don't think people should be physically forced to be vaccinated, but groups of people get to consent or not consent, as a group, via laws, about being around someone who will physically make them sick. The key difference here is about who is doing what to whom, and whether someone is acting upon another person. Walking past someone in public in a leather harness isn't going to modify their organs via pathogen; walking past someone spreading a pathogen that hangs out in the air for hours out of your gaping, infectious piehole is actively doing something to other people.

Joel was right. Thank you, goodnight.

[a-really-bad-decision]

Look. I get that folks who are approaching the finale from this angle are usually doing so from a place of genuine good faith and love for Joel. But like. If your immediate reaction after finishing season 1 is to insist that the cure never could have been developed/distributed/tested/viable and that the Fireflies were stupid/naive/slapdicks/never could have accomplished it anyways, so Joel Definitely Did Nothing Wrong, I can’t help but feel like you’re wildly missing the point of it all.

Because like. Joel did not ever care if the cure could have worked. He did not care if it’s what Ellie might have wanted in that moment (neither did the fireflies of course, but they’re not the ones who traveled by her side, protected her, made her feel safe and cared about). Neither of these were ever a point of consideration in the finale. Ellie’s death and the resultant hypothetical cure could have had a guaranteed 100% success rate. It could have spread instantly, around the world the moment they removed her brain from her skull, turning every single runner, clicker, and bloater back to a healthy human being, with no deleterious side effect.

And Joel still would have shot that doctor point blank in the face.

Because that moment right there, is the point. To me at least. It’s the climax that the whole story has been building towards: a father’s beautiful, selfish decision to save his daughter at the literal cost of the entire world. And not just the world in an abstract sense, but in ways that carry weight to him on a deeply personal level. Tess’ dying wish. A real future for his niece or nephew. Ellie’s own agency in all of this. And he did it without hesitating for a moment.

Going from treating Ellie like cargo, like a clicker waiting to happen, to deciding that her life is more important to him than than any other human being who was or ever will be born? Regardless of whether it’s “““healthy”””, that’s an incredible fucking relationship arc. And it only has this level of gravity and meaning if there are genuine consequences to making that decision.

(And let me be clear here: none of this is a moral indictment of Joel. Joel’s motivations, actions, decisions etc. are all incredibly blatant, human, and relatable, and if he’d done anything but go on that rampage, it would have contradicted everything we know and understand about him so far. Also, he’s fucking fictional. Who gives a shit if he did a Kinda Amoral Thing. None of it is real, and it doesn’t matter)

The argument here isn’t that Fireflies Good And Smart And Can Totally Save The World For Sure Guys, or Joel Did Objectively Bad Thing And Is Unforgivable Bad Forever Now. The argument is that the show is much more interesting and internally consistent if you buy into the idea that there’s a chance, even a slim one, that the fireflies could have extracted a viable vaccine at the terrible cost of a fourteen year old girl’s life. That maybe Joel did prevent a cure from being made – that he potentially did doom the world for Ellie (or at least doomed it to another few decades of limping painfully by until something else came along). And that despite the cost, he pulled that trigger, brutally and without hesitation. He did it knowing that he’ll have to go on living with the knowledge of what he took from everyone, and how effortless it was to make that choice in spite of it all. That he’ll willingly betray Ellie’s trust as many times as he has to if it means keeping her from taking the burden of that guilt on herself, but also because he can’t bear the thought of her hating him if she learned the truth. And most of all (and in his own words), that if he was given the chance to go back and do it again, he would have made the exact same choice all over.

You take that out, and what kinda finale do you get now? A run and gun scene of a man rescuing a girl that he’s come to love, sure, but now it’s from a bunch of one dimensional, child murdering villains, set in a place they never had to go to, preceded by a journey that was rendered useless before they even left, all because there was never any chance of it working in the first place. Pointless roundabout cynicism, and an endpoint that now textually only existed to stick the protagonists in their get along sweater.

You don’t have to agree with this specific interpretation of the ending. I get that this can come across as a harsh reading of Joel, especially since he’s a character that myself and others genuinely like a lot. But that nitpicky fixation on proving that the cure never could have worked always felt more for the benefit of the uncomfortable player/viewer than as any sort of actual narrative improvement. A way to divest yourself of ever having to sit with the weight of either choice. Of having to think about the way that a secret so massive, sitting unspoken between you and a loved one, can rot that relationship. Of the way that someone you thought you trusted can act in your best interests, but against your own wishes.

And if that’s not what you want from the show, genuinely and without judgment: that’s fine. You keep doing you. I’m just not sure why you’re watching something like tlou otherwise.

[zipadeea]

Haven’t played the game but I watched winter and the hospital gameplay of tlou last night and here’s why Joel absolutely made the best decision:

(SPOILERS)

1. My dude had a raging concussion friends. He was slammed in the head and out so cold the fireflies were able to move him into a bed in the hospital, and he had absolutely no idea where Ellie was. Then, Joel wakes up and is told Ellie lived, but btw we’re gonna kill her to save the world. And all my dude with a raging concussion hears is you’re going to kill my child, so obviously he takes on the whole hospital and saves her.

2. Ellie is different after winter. She is withdrawn, traumatized, obviously depressed and terrified. It does not matter if, as Marlene says, this is what Ellie wants, because the Ellie that joel knows is a survivor to her core. She wants to live. This post-winter Ellie might make the decision to die, but she is not in the right headspace to make that decision.

3. Ellie is fourteen. It should never even be up to her (if the fireflies gave her that chance, but that’s another whole point here). In a perfect world, medical decisions would be made by her parent/guardian. And Marlene gave up those rights when she had Joel take Ellie across the country.

4. The fireflies are hypocrites.

They fight for years against FEDRA for democracy and freedom and the rights of the people. But the moment it comes to “the fate of humanity” and “the only thing that can save us”, personal rights go out the window. Which is exactly what FEDRA did. The fireflies are defaulting to arguments for FEDRA when it comes Ellie.

(Also just, side note, but it’s really Marlene’s lack of emotional intelligence that fucks this all up for her. Like, I’m glad it was ends the way it does, but Marlene never should have told Joel that Ellie survived drowning. “How did you make it, I lost half my crew on the trip.” They adopted each other moron! Ellie imprinted on Joel like a duckling, and Joel (whom Marlene knows to be a very dangerous, closed off person) would find a way to take Ellie to the moon if she asked it of him. Marlene not seeing that killed everyone in the hospital.)

5. Finally, the doctor jumping straight to digging into Ellie’s brain and killing her is rash and stupid. There had to have been other tests they could have done first. He seems idiotic and very desperate and I don’t think it would have worked. Ellie would be dead and there still wouldn’t be a cure.

[phantom-of-the-501st]

Thoughts on Joel's Decision

Okay... so the last episode of TLOU was... a lot. And obviously, one of the biggest questions to come out of it is did Joel do the right thing?

Now there's always gonna be people that don't agree and that's understandable but I'm just gonna drop where my brain is at with this show atm because oh boy is everything complicated.

Did Joel do the right thing?

To be blunt? No. But it all gets a lot more messy than this.

I think the best place to start is whether or not Joel prevented the end of the apocalypse and honestly speaking, I don't think so. Now I don't study medicine so I'm not going to claim that I'm an expert on making vaccinations, but the limited microbiology, bacteriology and virology that I've studied gives me I small idea on whether or not the Fireflies' plan was ever actually viable. And I don't think it was.

As of 2023, while there are a few in development, we do not have a single vaccination that can be used to treat fungal infections. Now seeing as we haven't been able to make one up until now, the chance of producing one during an apocalypse where technology hasn't been updated since 2003? Yeah... probably not going to happen. And even if they did have the facilities, I'm still not sure if it would even work. I don't have enough of an understanding of medicine to know if giving people specific signalling chemicals would work, but I'm a little iffy on the idea. The way that vaccinations work is by introducing the body to a pathogen (something that causes disease) in a form or dose that will not do a lot of damage, but will allow the body to learn how to fight it. But that's not the plan here. They aren't planning on creating a cure that will allow the body to fight off Cordyceps, they plan to make something that will trick the fungus into thinking that that person is already infected.

And I'm not entirely sure that that's possible.

But like I said, I'm not an expert on medicine so for the benefit of the doubt, let's say that they actually do make a cure. Hooray! This means that they can save the world right? ...right?

Errr... no. Even if the Fireflies did manage to make a cure, A) how are they planning to make enough of this cure to treat this many people? and B) how do they expect to transport this cure?

We have to remember that this is a global apocalypse. They would have to get this cure to everywhere on the planet where there are people who are at risk of being infected. Bearing I mind, medicines (especially vaccinations) have to be stored in specific conditions. Seeing as they are currently struggling to find food, I don't know how they plan to get enough equipment together to ship this cure off the right places and for it to still be in a good enough condition to be usable by the time it gets there. And then the cure has to be administered to enough people for it to prevent the outbreak from happening again. For this to happen, you need to reach herd immunity, which, depending on the thing being treated, requires between around 70-90% of the population being vaccinated.

I get that they wanted to find an end to the apocalypse, but I don't think that the Fireflies would have been able to produce a cure, make enough of it to vaccinate 70-90% of the population and then distribute it worldwide.

But even then, I still don't think that all of that justifies Joel's actions. Joel didn't go to find Ellie, guns blazing, because he had thought through the logistics of the Fireflies' plan. Someone was threatening to take his daughter away from him again and he snapped. Even if he didn't prevent the end of the apocalypse, he still killed a lot of people to protect one girl.

And the argument can't even be made that he did it for her. Sure, there would be a part of him that is rescuing her so that she doesn't have to go through those experiments and tests, but ultimately, he did it for himself. He tells Ellie earlier on in the episode that they don't need to to go through with it but she chooses to carry on. She doesn't want everything she did to be for nothing.

She made the choice to go through with the plan and Joel disobeyed her.

At the end of the day, what Joel did was selfish. Even if the plan to make a cure hadn't worked, he still went against the wishes of the person he was protecting and he did it for himself. And what's even worse, he lied to Ellie about what he had done because he knew that she wouldn't have agreed with him.

So no, I don't think Joel made the right choice.

But I don't hate him. There's a part of me that gets it. It's really hard to apply moral justification when we don't live in the world that these people do and every character in this show, including Joel is living with extreme trauma. We know how much the death of Sarah can trigger him, so it isn't surprising that this situation caused him to snap. It's understandable.

But I don't think that that makes him right.

[evelynhenare1]

TLOU FINALE SPOILERS

I’m wading into the hellscape that is the “Is Joel Right in the TLOU Finale” discourse as someone who hasn’t played the games so I’m basing this off the show entirely (I do plan to play the games so no game spoilers.)

I’ve seen a lot of people argue that the Firefly’s cure wouldn’t have worked or that they couldn’t have produced it but imho that argument completely misses the point.

Joel in that episode never once questions if the cure would work, he doesn’t care. The effectiveness of potential cure played literally zero role in his decision making. He could have been provided 100% certainty that the cure would work completely and the apocalypse would end and he would have made the exact same decision as we saw him make.

In my view he did what he did knowing he was dooming the world but it was worth it to save Ellie.

And before you get me wrong, I completely understand where Joel was coming from!! I just think the potential effectiveness of the Firefly’s cure is irrelevant to ethical discussions of Joel’s actions.

[yeeyee-alumni]

Joel did not doom humanity (no matter how much the second game wants you to believe that)

To demonize Joel’s decision at the end of the first game (saving his surrogate daughter’s life) you need to bend over backwards and ignore any and all context the first game gave us with regards to who the Fireflies truly are. Because the truth of the matter is: a) they knocked Joel unconscious while he was trying to revive a young girl b) they drugged Ellie immediately to tear her body apart for their needs c) THEY DID NOT ASK ELLIE FOR PERMISSION to give her life for their cause, they didn’t even tell her she would have to die (Ellie was making plans with Joel after the giraffe scene, “Once we're done, we'll go wherever you want. Okay?”, clearly indicating she had no idea she would have to die) d) they did not let Ellie and Joel see each other to say their goodbyes e) they were about to walk Joel out into the wilderness without any of his gear/resources, which during the zombie apocalypse is a certain death sentence f) they didn’t hold up their end of the bargain (remember how Marlene promised Joel guns in return for delivering Ellie?) So even if you show them as much goodwill as possible, the Fireflies are still a bunch of assholes. If the exact opposite had happened, they let Joel go all on good terms and then he suddenly decided to turn around and murder everyone I would have called him a terrible person, but that is not what happened. As it stands, the Fireflies are shady and questionable at best. But it actually gets worse:

a) the procedure that would 100% kill Ellie had an incredibly low success rate (the doctor mentioned in his recording that every previous operation with other test subjects had failed) b) the same recording mentions cerebrospinal fluid having been extracted, meaning they were capable of performing a non-lethal spinal tab, but they’re unable to perform a non-lethal biopsy or craniotomy on Ellie? (this may seem like nit-picking, but actually further solidifies my point about how incompetent the Fireflies/Abby’s dad were/was) c) to add to their immense incompetence, mere hours after receiving Ellie they decide to IMMEDIATELY KILL THE ONLY PERSON KNOWN TO BE IMMUNE as oppose to keeping her alive for as long as possible to run every single test in existence on her. But let's paint a picture of the best case scenario, which is Jerry, the absolute legend that he is, actually manages to get a vaccine out of Ellie, what happens then? a) How are the Fireflies, who are nearly extinct at this point, supposed to MASS PRODUCE and NATIONWIDE DISTRIBUTE a vaccine? That is logistically impossible. b) More than likely, they would use the vaccine as a bargaining chip against FEDRA (granted, this is more a guess than a fact, but to believe they wouldn’t take advantage of the vaccine in the fight for political power against the government they’ve been fighting for years is beyond naïve). But let’s be even more generous: turns out the Fireflies are the most altruistic resistance group to have ever existed, they actually manage to produce and distribute the vaccine into every last corner of the country, everyone is immune. What now? a) You might be immune to spores and bites, but your immunity doesn’t help you when a clicker rips your throat out or a bloater crushes you to death, the infected can still kill you in numerous other ways. b) The faction wars going on are not gonna disappear overnight. WLF and Seraphites will continue to kill each other by the dozens every day, one could even argue that introducing a vaccine into the conflict would only cause things to escalate further. c) Numerous cannibals, hunters and bandits still roam the country, they will not abandon their practices overnight and they are arguably a much bigger threat than the infected to begin with. Just because everyone is immune does not mean that the world returns to sunshine, rainbows, and flowers. To imply that it would, means being simplistic and naive beyond reason. It should be obvious by now that Ellie’s death WOULD NOT HAVE IMPROVED ANYTHING. The chances of actually getting a vaccine are slim to none, the chances of vaccinating everyone are even more dour, and even then the overall situation would not improve much. With such bad prospects I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my child either. (I am aware that an argument can be made that none of these factors had an impact on Joel’s decision to save Ellie, yet they’re still crucial when making a judgement about the Fireflies/Abby’s dad). To summarize: a) Abby’s dad was incompetent and a horrible person (his conversation with Abby in the second game tells us that he would not be willing to sacrifice his own child, but if it’s someone else’s it’s a-okay for him). b) The Fireflies were a malicious and incompetent terrorist group with messed up morals. c) No, Joel did not doom humanity. Subsequently, Abby’s quest for revenge was not justified because the Fireflies and her dad were never justified in their actions to begin with. And this is only solidified by the second game having to retcon the hell out of all these arguments I just painstakingly illustrated and explained in order to even attempt to have Abby’s motivation be seen as justified. Only one example being how it was clearly established in the first game that they had MULTIPLE doctors in Salt Lake City (Marlene: “The doctors tell me that the cordyceps, the growth inside her, has somehow mutated.”; Ellie: “She said that they have their own little quarantine zone. With doctors there still trying to find a cure.”). Yet in the second game we are told by

Abby that actually no, turns out her dad was the only doctor that could have developed vaccine. And it doesn't take mental gymnastics to see why the second game takes it upon itself to alter most of the context of the first one: to (retroactively!) condemn Joel. HOWEVER, a sequel doesn’t get to pick and choose which established facts from the first entry it builds upon or what it gets to retroactively declare as non-canon only to have it fit their preferred narrative. Quite frankly, that’s bad writing. A sequel, in order to be considered well-written, has to not only be a natural continuation of the events, but has to stay consistent with the characters and the world that were previously set up. And if you have to alter much of the context to make it look like Joel condemned the world, isn't that the most obvious sign that he never actually did? And all of this effort for just one goal: to justify Abby’s quest for revenge and yet it still wasn’t and here’s why: Joel killed her dad in order to PREVENT HIM FROM KILLING HIS DAUGHTER. Abby on the other hand WILFULLY SLOW TORTURED Joel for what appears to be hours, prolonging his death for as long as possible, all for her own gratification (and we won't mention how she went through with it despite Ellie's crying and pleading). And don’t even try to make the argument about Abby wanting “justice”, Joel didn’t torture her dad out of revenge or for his own gratification - this is not justice, this is simply sadistic. A man killing someone who is about to murder their child in semi-self-defense cannot be compared to someone wilfully slow torturing someone to death for their own gratification, like Jesus, I didn’t think I’d have to spell that one out. I am aware that the second game tries to do whatever it can, including retconning their own original story, to paint Ellie and (especially!) Joel as evil. And for a considerable amount of the player base this actually worked, and while I cannot find it in me to condemn them (we all experience stories differently after all), I reserve the right to reject arguments in defense of Abby such as “all people are forced to do bad things during the apocalypse” and “does context even matter?”. If the only way you can defend/justify Abby's actions is to remove all context and nuance, then your reasoning is built on quicksand.

[efterjoes]

A (critical) love letter to the Mint Maids!

Alright obviously I'm disappointed in how low the mint maids placed especially with all of the predictions putting them in 9th BUT regardless of their result they were SUCH a fun team...

This might be a very unpopular opinion but i really hope this sets a precedent for bringing back hermit-adjacent teams without a "carry", obviously some of the best players can be very sweet and encouraging such as pete, H, fruit and illumina, but false, ren (and co.) have proved time and time again that they are very capable - obviously this MCC wasn't the best example to show but there were some potential factors as to why they did not manage to overcome the expectations:

The maids were clearly not taking the competition aspect too seriously - martyn was promoting the charity (go donate!), not much strategy was discussed prior to each game. HITW also had a LOT of conversation even while some of the teammates were still alive.

The lack of practice - of course false had a mini practice stream the day prior but it seemed like the team had not planned out their mode of attack prior to the event and even though the team had great chemistry it seemed like most of the decisions that they made as a team were improvised/unplanned. False also MASSIVELY underperformed in HITW, the entire team in SOT, Grid Runners and Build Mart, False and Ren in TGTTOS - we've seen very strong showings from their past appearances and we know they're capable of more, even though they...

...lacked a clear leader! The leader doesn't necessarily have to be a top player, they just have to call the shots. We've seen glimpses of martyn and false showing great leadership in survival games and skybattle and that's what helped them survive and place as high as they did.

Martyn's weird monitor thing! Definitely a smaller factor as it only affected 1 of the 4

Thus, I am a firm believer that the mint maids could have done better IF they were in the right mindset to do so - from the point of view of competition, bantering about "wooo let's go 7th place pov" from the very start isn't that great, but yes obviously I love them for it. False and Ren generally struggle with confidence in MCC even if their company is very light-hearted anyway.

Someone on here made a great point about ren and false sacrificing their own individual pointage for the sake of the team which makes them fantastic team players and their low individual scores for this event are extremely misrepresentative of their value on the team. The only thing that was lacking was a working synergy with the rest of the team - in spite of everyone's great chemistry with each other, it's clear that they needed some practice as a team - Joel and Ren had never been paired in MCC before, Martyn had only teamed with FalseRen once. Refer to my lack of practice argument

Either way, it's super nice to see the senior mint maids in their prime, obviously I'm very happy to have chosen to watch them live as my POV of choice - it just was and is frustrating to see comments about them as if they had no chance at all to succeed just because they don't have fruit or pete "carrying" them. They came under 2000 points under the 8th-place team, and they obviously underperformed like hell. Team the hermits with scott and shubble maybe! Or kara and jordan! Martyn and joel 2.0! The possibilities are endless!

[agirlking]

Hi, fellow anti-anti here, so please let's be friends even if we agree to disagree because it's all fiction anyway :) And sorry about the long ask.

I saw your posts about Joel, and I do get your point - that Joel was motivated by his own feelings, not morality. But I genuinely want to understand why you think Joel was the bad guy in that ending.

The Fireflies didn't ask Ellie if she was ok with sacrificing herself to make the vaccine and didn't let Joel talk to her. The only explanation as to why is because that way Marlene and Jerry could comfort themselves by believing Ellie would have said "yes" rather than risking her saying "no" and having to kill a horrified Ellie explicitly against her will.

If the Fireflies had given Ellie a choice, if Joel and Ellie had the opportunity to talk first, if Joel were unable to convince her to not go through with the surgery/sacrifice, and heard from her own lips that this was what she really wanted... Can you see Joel gunning down the Fireflies in cold blood while dragging a horrified Ellie away from the hospital against her will? I think most fans' gripe with the narrative in Part II that Joel took away Ellie's choice is because the Fireflies were the ones who actually did that.

And yes, later Ellie feels betrayed by Joel's actions and lies, and she says she would rather have followed Marlene’s plan. But let’s invert the original scene: When Ellie is just about to get sedated for the surgery, she hears shots being fired and Joel’s scream. She runs off and sees Joel dead and Marlene holding the gun that killed him. Ellie realizes the truth: nobody had told her that the surgery would kill her and Joel was trying to stop them. Would she still have followed Marlene and accepted her death peacefully, and think Joel was in the wrong for trying to save her? I think it’s natural for Ellie to get mad at Joel for what he did and ignore Marlene precisely because Joel survived and Marlene didn’t, but I fully believe if the scenario was inverted, Ellie would have supported Joel’s actions.

I don’t really see what makes Joel the bad person, I think in the end he was basically a cornered animal who reacted purely on impulse to the Fireflies’ unilateral decisions. Would really like to know your point of view on what makes him bad.

I don't say this with disrespect, but honestly I'm exhausted of having this argument, cause it just goes in circles, so I'm not going to get TOO into all of this.

Joel doomed humanity for his own feelings. Joel disregarded Ellie's agency and autonomy for his own feelings. That makes him the bad guy. He was not panicking when he killed them, he was calm. He knew what he was doing, and his calm demeanor in the car afterward and his unflinching lies only prove that.

I very very very very VERY VERY VERY often see this argument of "The FIREFLIES took her choice because they didn't ask her." But...Ellie told Joel before they got there she wanted the cure made period. At any cost. Did she use the words "including if it kills me"? No. Was that the implication? Yes. Her decision was MADE. (And if they were taking her choice then why is it okay Joel did that too? Wouldn't the answer be he should've broken her out and run off and given her a chance to wake up and decide to go back? But he didn't do that, because it wasn't about that. This is what I mean when I say people push their own morals onto it. Joel did not think for a second about how wrong it was Ellie didn't get to choose, he was thinking how he'd feel if she died. Which is a very normal way for a parent to react.) It doesn't MATTER the Fireflies made a decision instead of asking her (who would want to do that? Let a kid know you're going to kill them? And as saving humanity is objectively more important than ONE life, then what would they do if she said that wasn't okay? They'd have to kill her anyway, yeah you're right it probably was to comfort themselves because they were not psychopaths who wanted to do this, but recognized they had to.) Because Ellie already made that choice.

That was the whole reason for Sam, that plus her experience with Riley. Ellie WATCHED two people turn and die that could've been saved with a cure. (This was further emphasized with the body she finds in the hotel with Joel in the second game). She can't ignore that. She doesn't value her life more than everyone else's, and she SHOULDN'T, because as much as we and Joel love her her life isn't more valuable than every person that won't have to turn, and be killed by someone they love, if a cure and or vaccine existed.

And Joel was already a bad person. The first game told us that before the ending. Tommy's reactions told us that. Joel realizing the guy was faking his injury told us that. How calmly he was able to bludgeon a man to death told us that, (I do not blame him for wanting to stop Ellie being cannibalized and assaulted, I'm talking about his demeanor and how calm it was). Joel was never good.

And that's okay! It's okay Joel is not good and it's okay he did something wildly wrong, that makes him interesting. And he does still love Ellie and in many ways was a good father. That does not make him a good person.

I guess part of the issue with why I disagree with so much of the fandom here is I'm a type of person who sees those "you can kill ten people to save one newborn or sacrifice the newborn to save ten people" questions and go "well sacrifice the newborn. Duh. Needs of the many." So I have never gotten how it could be a debate, regardless of how it went down, if it was right to destroy all possibility of a cure. To me it would never be right. Though I acknowledge that's me putting my morals on the situation lol so I'm not fully above it. But I think it let me step back from the knee-jerk reaction of "but they're killing a kid!" to think about it differently.

I apologize if I sound hostile, I tend to be passionate, and as I said I've spent YEARS seeing people ignore what the story was trying to say, and in the process harass a lot of people (like Abby's face model...) because their headcanons weren't what they chose to validate, even though narratively and tonally the second game was sound. Hell we even all knew Joel would die! The very first teaser trailer we saw everyone went "oh Joel's going to die." But then it happened and everyone acted shocked.

[tlou-1]

Joel x Reader (Home) - Chapter 14

Chapter 1 | Chapter 2 | Chapter 3 | Chapter 4 | Chapter 5 | Chapter 6| Chapter 7 | Chapter 8 | Chapter 9 | Chapter 10 | Chapter 11 | Chapter 12 | Chapter 13| Chapter 14 | Chapter 15 | Chapter 16 | Chapter 17 | Chapter 18 | Chapter 19 TBA

Chapter 14 - You and Joel make up after being distant with each other (warning for smut) and you speak with Ellie sensing the argument between them is affecting their relationship. 

Joel had been crashing on the sofa the past couple nights, he knew you needed your space to process everything, so he didn’t even ask, he just did it. You were lying in the bed you both usually shared with a large empty space beside you still. You thought about Joel setting up a blanket and pillows for the fourth night, before wishing you a “Goodnight” as you had stopped at the bottom of the stairs to watch him. Your hand now reached across the bed wanting to feel the comfort of his body heat or weight of him around the mattress but the pillow was untouched and cold. 

It was late and dark, you could barely see where you were walking as you made your way downstairs. Standing at the bottom of the stairs you call out to him, hoping he hadn’t fallen asleep yet. 

“Joel?” You call his name softly, the way you said it sounded so much nicer than his name had sat in your mouth during your arguments in the past few days. 

“Hmm? Y/N is everything alright?” He asks sleepily, sitting up.

“Yes, come to bed? It’s too cold without you” you put out your hand which he takes silently and follows you back upstairs. 

As Joel gets into bed you stand to the bedside and slowly pull Joel’s shirt you were wearing over your head. You stand there naked infront of Joel only lit by the small amount of moonlight peering through the curtains. Joel sits up and begins to speak, “shhh” you hush him and climb on top of him. He begins to shower your neck and breasts in kisses and your head falls back in response. Joel slowly pushes you forward so as that you’re beneath him with your back laid upon the cool bed. He goes back to were he was kissing you but begins to trail his kisses from your breasts to the navel of your stomach where he stops. Joel holds his hands gently against there before kissing it slowly, the space where your child was growing. “I am sorry, I love you” he whispers against your skin. 

You sits back up and prop yourself on top of him again “I love you too” you say before adjusting him inside of you. You both let out a soft moan as soon as Joel enters you from the pleasure and relief. You shift your body in a gentle motion, you take your time with each other and being gentle with each touch. Joel gently lies you down and lowers his head in-between your legs where he slowly uses his mouth and tongue “God I missed this” he moans before setting his mouth back to work. You go to laugh at his comment but all the escapes your lips is a whimper and Joel picks up the pace of his tongue. He reaches his free hand for yours and you grip it tight as your hips buckle and legs shake with the intensity of the orgasm passing through you from the tip of your toe to the back of your head. 

“You good?” He whispers smiling as he sits back up positing himself. He always enjoyed pleasuring you, sometimes when he smiled like that you thought he enjoyed it more than when he would cum. Not many men were built like that.

All you could do was nod before he slowly adjusted himself within you and as he did it a pleasurable rush and relief washed right over him again, “Jesus Christ” he almost growled his hand reaching for the back of the bed board to hold himself up as you rocked your bodies in a slow motion. Your hand reached up to trace his jawline before pulling him down to kiss you. You could tell he was getting close when he pushed his forehead against yours and his panting became quicker. “Fuck Y/N” he called as his body tensed and went still inside yours. 

Joel collapsed on top of you, your body completely enwrapped in his in every possible way. You had never experienced it like this, when Joel usually came he would pull away from you to avoid any chance of you getting pregnant which you inevitability now already were. You had never pulled each other closer, you’d never looked into his eyes when it happened or felt how intensely his heart was beating against his chest and now against yours too. 

“I like this” you whisper a few moments later and Joel still hadn’t moved or removed himself.

“Hmm?” He says still a bit out of sorts.

“This, you pulling me closer instead of having to pull away and feeling the weight of you around me… it’s comforting” you smile stroking his slightly damp hair. 

Joel laughs and you cant help but join in “Lets not fight again Y/N, I don’t think I could have watched you walk around this house in those tight jeans one more day” he chuckles rolling over to his side of the bed. 

You whip your head round to look at him, its pretty dark but his hazel eyes are clear enough to see.

“Joel it was five days” you roll your eyes at him.

“It was five days too long” he sighs before quickly kissing you on the cheek and cuddling into you.

“Just no more secrets or lies okay?” you whisper in the dark. 

“Okay” he whispers back.

The following morning you both agree to go to Doctor Henry to tell her your decision.

“Well by my guessing with the time of your last period I am guessing you’re about 10 weeks, you’ll be staring to show a bit more from now and in the coming weeks.” She explains slowly. You cant help but look down at your stomach, it was already slightly curved but nothing people would notice. 

“I have an ultrasound hooked up, if you’d like to try listening for the heartbeat today?” Doctor Henry smiles. You had always hated being examined and hated the worn leather chair in the doctors office but when you heard that sound, the chair didn’t seem so bad. You had never heard a baby’s heartbeat before, it sounded a bit like Shimmer galloping across a field to you.

“Should it be going that fast?” You asked a little worried, to which Joel reached for your hand smiling.

“That’s normal baby don’t worry” he reassured you before kissing your hand. 

Two weeks later you and Joel walked out to Ellie’s shed one night to tell her the news. You thought she should know before breaking it to the rest of the family. 

“That’s amazing” she smiled and hugged you tightly. Which she was doing less and less often in her adolescence. She didn’t hug Joel but just awkwardly smiled at him before saying “congrats old man”. You and Joel were heading out when you asked him to go on ahead, you hadn’t wanted to intervene but maybe it was time you did chat with Ellie. 

“Ellie, you got a minute?” You say closing the door behind Joel. 

“Sure” she shrugs. 

“You wanna tell me what’s going on?” You sigh at her but again she just shrugs and answers with a non answer. 

“You know he is as stubborn as they come, about as stubborn as you and he can be emotionally stunted when it comes to expressing himself” you laugh slightly knowing how true it can be.

“but that man loves you Ellie. I have watched your old man fling himself in the way of infected, bloaters and trespassers to keep you safe in the almost two years I have know you, without even thinking about it, he is there. I think he doesn’t realise he is doing the same with patrols and other things that are just a part of life here. I will talk to him about it, you should be out on patrol if that’s what you want?” You ask her

Ellie nods “I do”. 

“Do me a favour though? Don’t forget why he does the things he does, I try not too.” you smile softly at her.

“Okay I’ll try”. 

[respectablesentiment]

Her arm itches, a deep graze stretching from her elbow to her wrist and smarting in a way that makes Ellie examine it closely, as though she may be bitten. She wasn’t though. Riley had saved her and she didn’t save Riley. It was a blur after that. -- prompt: family, day 4 of elliedina week Ellie's mother doesn't die but Ellie still grows up alone. Ellie was never bitten but she still goes on a journey. Alternative Universe where I ignore two specific parts of canon.

(day 1: ache) | (day 2: dawn) | (day 3: trouble)

or you can read it here: 

Warmth

Family is a complicated word until it isn’t.

She’s never known it until she does.

--

Marlene is the one who finds her after Riley.

Ellie is a bundle of raw nerves, cheeks stained with tears and speckled with blood. She doesn’t think she has anything left to give.

It was meant to be a special night and for a blissful moment it was.

And then it wasn’t.

Riley had been bitten. She saved Ellie’s life and Ellie wasn’t able to save hers.

Riley was her best friend, her person, her something. Her someone with one foot out the door who just agreed to stay.

And now it would be Ellie clinging to Marlene, considering pledging to the Fireflies in her place because one more moment in Boston would make her heart hurt too much.

There must be something extra special in the air, perhaps a shared sense of mourning or grief, maybe Marlene had been more attached to Riley or Ellie than she let on, but she shares something new with Ellie. She knows her mother, a Firefly who was stationed in a lab out west. Still alive.

Ellie isn’t sure if its rage or tears building inside of her, too exhausted to form words or find her way through her emotions.

Mothers were meant to protect and hers clearly hadn’t.

Abandonment was hard to rationalise, but it felt very much like her grief was due to her mother and if she’d never known Riley then Riley would’ve never known her. They’d both be fine and Riley would be alive and her chest wouldn’t hurt like this.

The realisation couldn’t have been recent, it didn’t make sense that Marlene hadn’t told her before. She admits to keeping tabs on Ellie but doesn’t specify why she stayed away.

The offer to journey west with Marlene feels like a form of salvation. She had considered returning to the military school but couldn’t go through with it.

Her arm itches, a deep graze stretching from her elbow to her wrist and smarting in a way that makes Ellie examine it closely, as though she may be bitten. She wasn’t though. Riley had saved her and she didn’t save Riley.

She had cycled rapidly through the first four stages of grief without ever touching acceptance, pacing and screaming and crying for hours. Riley sat resigned in a corner, staring at the gun in her lap as sweat began to build on her brow.

She gave Ellie the gun for protection, kissed her one last time and asked her to walk away.

It was a blur after that.

Marlene gets hurt, Ellie gets lumped with two smugglers and the Capitol building is full of dead Fireflies.

Ellie is fairly certain that either Joel or Tess used to a be parent. Potentially both. Potentially together? She isn’t sure. She overhears bits and pieces of hushed conversations, arguments about how far they are taking her and whether its worth finding the Fireflies and her mother.

Ellie isn’t entirely sure to be honest, the road is gruelling but she’s moving somewhere. Forward, onwards. It’s not like she can move back, and its not like she can stay with Joel or Tess. So onwards it is.

Bill’s town is a shit hole, Pittsburgh is a nightmare, and the suburbs outside of Pittsburgh sends her spiralling. Did Riley turn that way? Fall asleep and wake into oblivion? Was Riley still in there?

Her last conversation with Sam loops over and over in her brain, interrupted occasionally by Tess checking in. Asking and caring in a way that Ellie doesn’t deserve.

“Joel doesn’t handle grief well,” Tess says openly.

Ellie’s eyes flick over to watch Joel ahead of them.

“He pushes it down and refuses to speak about it, but you don’t have to do that,” Tess says, squeezing Ellie in a side hug as they walk. “I’m here whenever you need to speak, or whenever you wanna be silent.”

Ellie nods along but keeps it inside.  

Joel shows care differently. He’s gruff and matter of fact and if there’s nothing that needs to be said then he says nothing. It takes Ellie a while to pick up on it because he’s Joel but he always makes sure she eats enough, that she’s between him and Tess, and he makes her put on a jacket when the weather changes.

The first time they meet Tommy is a turning point. They have power and a town and its nothing like the Boston QZ. Or Bill’s town. Or Pittsburgh.

It’s tempting.

Why rush after an unknown entity? A mother in the distance who abandoned her? Who she’d never known? Would their shared blood just make things click? The destination, the conclusion, the end. And what then? Would they get along?

Would Tess and Joel leave?

They wouldn’t stay.

Would Ellie stay?

Ellie’s lost in thought when the attack happens. Tess is immediately on her, making her crouch down under a table as Maria guards the door.

It happens and then it’s over.

They stay one night in Jackson and then they continue.

Ellie tries to call things off. It seems like a safe place to stay, Tommy and Maria said they could come back if the university labs in Eastern Colorado didn’t pan out.

“We’ve come this far, Ellie,” Joel says resolutely.

“You should be with your family, Ellie,” Tess affirms. “It’s rare to have that in this world.”

Ellie clenches her jaw. She’s never known family, never felt it… so how would she know?

“We should at least go to this university.”

And so they do.

It’s another bust.

In a long string of bad luck, nothing changes.

The buildings are deserted, there’s some fucked up infected monkeys, a dead scientist and another location to trek to.

And then there’s FEDRA soldiers.

She’s never been more thankful for Tess in her life.

“There’s three in the building across from us, they’ll head this way soon,” Tess says curtly. “Let’s head two rooms back, wait for them in the hallway. Gunfire will bring more so we’ll hold our positions. Agreed?” Her voice is gruff, almost an imitation of Joel’s and despite the adrenaline rushing through Ellie’s veins, Ellie smiles.

Times moves slowly, the gun is Ellie’s hand is solid and she’s got five bullets which is more than normal so she feels confident.

The soldiers slowly drop.

They wait five minutes at each floor, slowly advancing forward.

Joel bounces his knee as they hide, and Tess divides her time between scanning the entryways and windows and glaring at Joel to ensure he plays by her rules.

They escape relatively unscathed. Joel is bleeding from the temple, his face a mess of red that Tess reassures Ellie is fine. Tess has a bullet graze on her upper arm, a worn grey bandage tied haphazardly over it to stop the blood flow but Ellie thinks it might just make the wound infected. Ellie’s tired, shallow cuts and grazes line her right side from falling onto shattered glass, her head is pounding and she’s over it.

She cries that night. Feeling alone and scared and stupid.

Family is dumb and overrated.

It’s clearly not for her.

Her mother had decided long again.

If her mother didn’t want her then she didn’t want her mother.

She curls into a ball in her sleeping bag, safe elsewhere but feeling unsafe. She presses her fists to her eyes as though it’ll stop her tears and she just shakes, her body wracked with sobs.

A warm hand falls on her back. It’s large and solid and just resting there.

She knows its Joel but can’t bear to look at him.

Tess strokes her hair where it meets the nape of her neck, and Ellie wants to sink into the ground just as much as she doesn’t want them to stop.

She doesn’t speak and neither do they.

--

From where they are in eastern Colorado, Jackson is northwest, and Salt Lake City is west. Its only a few days travel from Salt Lake City to Jackson on horseback. Tess takes the time the following morning to show Ellie on a map.

“If we’re heading back that way anyway, then it’s worth it to check,” Tess tells Ellie, tracing the route they’d take and informing her of their decision more than anything else.

“It’s not worth anything,” Ellie replies, scuffing her shoes on the ground.

“It’s your mum,” Joel says simply.

“Has someone told her that?” Ellie mutters.

Joel and Tess both grimace, sharing a look. Ellie knows family is complicated, she’s been told this and now she’s experiencing it.

“Ellie, she’s your-”

The rage bubbles up inside her before she can stop it. “Everyone I’ve ever loved has either died or left me,” Ellie says with a raised voice, her hands shaking jerkily in front of her. She’s tense and full of energy and she wants to punch something. She can feel tears coming and her throat is dry and it’s too much.

“Ellie-”

“So why should I run after someone who’s already left me?” Ellie yells. “Why should it be this hard? Why do we have to risk this much? Why do you have to risk anything at all?”

They say nothing. Ellie can see pity in their eyes, and before she can stop herself, she punches a tree.

It doesn’t make her feel better.

Joel bandages her hand, three of her knuckles split. He’s gentler than she’s ever seen him and it makes her feel small for some reason.

“Kiddo, we don’t have to go if you don’t want to,” Joel says in a low tone. “You can- You can choose, it should be your choice.”

“It can’t be for nothing,” Ellie says bitterly, emotions swirling inside of her.

“If it doesn’t work,” Tess says, patting Ellie’s knee. “Then you don’t have to stay.”

“Where else can I go?” Ellie asks, squeezing her eyes shut, cheeks burning with embarrassment.

“There’s always Jackson,” Tess offers.

“But- I-”

“With us,” Joel says awkwardly. “If- if you wanted.”

Ellie’s throat is tight.

“I could teach you how to play guitar,” he offers. “I reckon you’d like that.”

“Maybe,” Ellie says softly.

And they continue on.

The journey from Colorado to Salt Lake City isn’t an easy one. Nothing was ever easy.

The weather gets colder which makes it harder to navigate, harder to find food, and harder to sleep.

She feels more as they get closer. More scared, more nervous, more anxious.

Just more.

She struggles to make sense of it, not sure what she’s looking for or what they’ll find. What she’s already found.

They’re on form. Heading through a bus depot, exiting the last highway and clearing through an underground tunnel.

They’re almost there and then there’s rushing water and straining lungs and darkness.

--

Ellie wakes in a hospital with a stranger beside her bed.

The woman’s eyes are green, her expression is soft, and she tuts over Ellie sitting up too early.

“Easy, easy,” the strangers says, hands reaching out to help Ellie sits up.

Ellie’s body freezes, jerking away from her. “Where are Joel and Tess?”

“I asked them to give us some time alone,” the woman says. “I’m your- I’m Anna.”

Ellie takes her in with wide eyes, waking into an anticipated moment was hard to process. “Can- where’s- I don’t-”

Anna hushes her and draws Ellie into a tight hug that she doesn’t relax into.

Meeting Anna doesn’t make things easier for Ellie.

There’s a sense of warmth there, honey in Anna’s voice, a soft touch and an excited expression.

Anna rushes through excuses, building a narrative of a complicated birth, a missing father and a sense of duty to the Firefly cause. She didn’t want Ellie to come out here, she was safer in a QZ until her mother had figured out the cure she’d devoted her life to. Her words are sure and well-spoken, she pauses in places like she anticipates Ellie reassuring her, and then she continues painting her picture of abandoning Ellie for noble reasons.

Ellie nods along.

It ticks so many boxes, but something is off and Ellie cannot place it. There’s a hardness behind Anna’s eyes, something she’s sometimes seen in her own, and it feels off.

“Do you have any questions, my love?” Anna asks, tone saccharine.

“Where’s- where’s Joel and Tess?” Ellie asks awkwardly.

Anna’s smile turns a little bitter at her words but she takes Ellie to them nonetheless.

“We’ve got it from here,” Marlene says, her voice is muffled but Ellie picks up the words as they approach. “You can take the guns as agreed.”

“We’re not leaving without checking on her,” Tess’s voice says firmly.

Anna’s steps turn heavy, as though to announce her approach.

Marlene changes the conversation quickly as they enter.

“Ellie!”

Ellie throws herself at Tess, initiating a hug for the first time in their long journey. She clings to her, relaxing in the safety of her arms.

“It’s good to see you up, kiddo,” Joel says, a protective hand on Ellie’s shoulder.

She hugs him as well, relieved to be reunited and to see Joel in one piece after the tunnels.

“You’re welcome to stay for a couple of days,” Marlene says curtly.

It’s clear she doesn’t mean it.

Joel and Tess stay anyway.

--

Anna is involved in testing to find a ‘cure’ for the infection. She works with some doctor. Talks about how she used to be a nurse and had diversified her skills over the last 14 years in immunology, pathology and mycology.

Anna seems to want to share everything, tell Ellie everything and nothing, unable to sit in the silence that Ellie offers.

Ellie doesn’t particularly care, too focused on the way that the Fireflies hover over Joel and Tess like they aren’t allowed to go to certain parts of their hospital or their base. The way that whispers cease when she turns a corner, the blood splatter on doctor’s coats, and the weird feeling that Infected are nearby.

It feels off.

There’s something out of place.

It doesn’t take long to click.

Or at least, it doesn’t take Ellie long to venture where she’s not allowed to go. She uses every trick Joel and Tess taught her about being stealthy, sneaking passed Fireflies to reach the upper floors of the hospital in the middle of the night.

There’s Infected in cages. Dozens of them.

She supposes it makes sense if you’re studying immunology to find a vaccine.

Cages are marked with numbers and dates.

#259, vaccine 23, injected: 20/04/34, infected: 21/04/34, turned: 22/04/34

#260, vaccine 23, injected: 20/04/34, infected: 21/04/34, turned: 23/04/34

Her eyes linger on the dates, only days prior, comparing those around her.

Someone passes the room she’s in, footsteps audible between the groaning of the Infected and Ellie is terrified.

She hides under a desk, flashlight off, in the total darkness of a room filled with nightmares.

Once she’s certain they are gone, she gets up, hands shaky as she searches through paperwork.

It confirms what she thinks.

She drops the notebook in shock, the sound alerting several of the runners. Within seconds they are snarling, baring their teeth, and pounding on the doors of their cages.

They’re locked away and yet she’s never been more terrified, stuck in place and trembling.

She hears guards shouting, footsteps rushing closer.

The room is flooded with light when they arrive, and Ellie finally moves. She rushes forward, ducking passed them in the doorway.

She runs and she doesn’t stop.

They don’t shoot and they don’t chase her.

--

She finds comfort when she finds Joel and Tess. Too overwhelmed and too worked up to be able to explain what she saw and what she now knows.

Her mother is experimenting on humans to find a cure.

Injecting them with a trial vaccine, infecting them with the virus, studying them as they turn, and then dissecting them.  

Hundreds.

#260.

The knock at the door that goes ignored so Marlene and Anna enter anyway.

Joel stands in front of them, partially shielding Ellie and Tess from view.

“What can I help you with?” Joel asks, crossing his arms. His tone is serious and its impossible to tell that Ellie has shared nothing with him.

“I just wanted to explain what Ellie saw,” Anna says, holding her hands up. “Sometimes sacrifice is needed for the greater good, I’m sure you understand that.”

Tess stiffens against Ellie, holding her tighter. “Are you okay?” She whispers in Ellie’s ear.

Ellie nods but she’s uncertain, she pulls away to watch, eyes studying Anna.

“In order to create a vaccine,” Anna continues. “There’s a need for trials. There are- we’ve had-” She falters, clenching her hands into fists by her sides. “Immunology is complex and working tirelessly in order to create a vaccine for animals which do not ordinarily get Infected does not necessarily help to create a vaccine for animals that do.”

Ellie narrows her eyes. “So you test on humans instead?” She offers plainly. “You make up a vaccine, you give it to someone and you infect them and you just take notes as they suffer.”

Anna’s nostrils flare.  

“We’re learning a lot,” Marlene says. “We don’t like it either but it needs to be done.”

“Two hundred and sixty times?” Ellie asks.

Tess swears.

“Where are you finding two hundred and sixty people to experiment on?” Joel says threateningly.

“We have to think about the future,” Anna says coldly.

“You’re monsters,” Ellie snarls.

Anna’s jaw tightens, she shakes her head as though she’s deciding the argument isn’t worth it and she walks away.

“They’re not good people, Joel,” Marlene says, rubbing her eyes. “Most of them are hunters and- and think of how many people we could save if we get this right.”

“We’re leaving in the morning,” Joel tells her. “Please go.”

And Marlene does.

Ellie sits stiffly on the bed, fidgeting with her hands as Joel and Tess talk circles around her.

“Human testing?”

“Hundreds of people.”

“What if they never find a vaccine? How many more will they go through?”

“I always knew the Fireflies were misguided but fuck.”

She zones out, disassociating more than anything else as she thinks about Riley and Sam, about hundreds of Rileys and Sams, about being cold and feverish and knowing what’s coming and not knowing how it would come.

She must fall asleep at some point because she wakes up to Tess stroking her hair and smiling sadly.

Joel and Tess have packed and they’re ready to leave.

It takes Ellie several sluggish moments, heartbroken and half asleep, to register than they mean to take her too.

“Really?” Ellie asks.

“Of course,” Tess says, like its nothing.

“We’re family,” Joel says, like its everything.

--

Ellie leaves with them.

Anna doesn’t really say goodbye and neither does Ellie.

It had felt like Anna was trying to build something between them, but she was really pretending something was already there. But there was nothing. No spark, no connection, no meaning. The journey had been worthless.

Ellie shouldn’t have run after someone who already left her.

Family was both complicated and simple.

Out of reach and sneaking up on her.

Her mother was nothing and no one, and the smugglers were now something and someone.

--

“It’s kinda pretty, ain’t it?” Joel says, gesturing to the snow-capped mountains surrounding them.

“Yeah, it’s gorgeous in Spring, Texas,” Tess grins, helping Ellie over a fence. “This whole area is covered in wildflowers.”

They’re on the outskirts of Jackson, almost back to where they were months previously. Months of danger and sleeplessness and darkness.

Risks and close calls.

For nothing.

“Sarah and I used to take hikes like this all the time,” Joel says easily. “I reckon the two of you would’ve been friends.”

Ellie nods along, thoughts elsewhere.

“Just a little bit further now,” Tess says eagerly, giving Ellie a boost onto a higher bit of ground.

Joel lends a hand to stabilise her and then pulls up Tess.

“Hey, wait,” Ellie says, looking out toward Jackson and then down at her hands. She sighs as she tries to find her words. “I’ve been meaning to tell you but, back in Boston… before I left, I was- I was somewhere I shouldn’t be with my friend. My best friend. She got bit and we didn’t know what to do so we tried to wait it out and she made me leave before she turned.”

“I’m sorry, Ellie,” Tess says quietly. “I know how hard that can be.”

“Do you think they-” Ellie rubs the back of her neck. “Do you think they’re still inside? Like they’re stuck?”

“No. No, Ellie I don’t,” Tess says. “I think they’ve moved on. They’re at peace.”

Joel is silent and awkward, but his eyes are kind.

“I’m sorry we went all that way for nothing, I-” Ellie falters, biting her lip. “You both risked so much and I don’t think I could have handled someone else dying or- or turning because of me.”

“Your friend’s death wasn’t your fault,” Tess says.

“I feel like it should have been me and not her,” Ellie admits.

“Ellie, I’ve struggled a long time with surviving,” Joel says. “But no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for.”

Ellie fidgets with her fingers, scratching at her arm. “I just-” She huffs. “I just feel like we fought through all of that for nothing. We came all this way and for what?”

“For you,” Joel says plainly.

Ellie tears up, nodding and sniffing and doing her best to keep it together.

Family is a complicated word until it isn’t, she’s never known it until she does, and she feels it constantly in Jackson.

In their meals together, in learning how to play guitar, in movie nights, in sharing books, learning how to swim, and to grow and move forward.

She tells them she loves them on her sixteenth birthday in an abandoned museum.

She tells Tess and Joel she likes girls the day that she decks someone for taunting her about Cat.

She goes hiking with Joel when she and Cat inevitably break up, finding peace in the open air.

She cries on Tess’s shoulder when Dina and Jesse get back together for the third time. A mess of complicated feelings loud in her chest.

Joel helps her practice playing her song for the end of harvest bonfire and Tess helps her pick out a shirt to wear to the town’s winter dance.

“I’m just a girl, not a threat,” Ellie says softly.

“Oh, Ellie, I think they should be terrified of you,” Dina murmurs. Her eyes are bright, she feels warm and perfect in Ellie’s arms, and she steals Ellie’s breath long before she kisses her.

She distantly hears someone calling out, too lost in the tenderness of the moment to register it properly.  

“God, I-” Ellie laughs at herself and her breathlessness, eyes lingering on Dina’s affectionate smile before she kisses Dina again.

Once. Twice. Soundly and enthusiastically.

When she pulls back the second time, she notices Joel and Tess having words with Seth. They look angry and Maria seems to have put herself in the middle, mediating and ushering Seth outside.

Dina’s hand on her cheek makes her refocus.

“I’ve wanted to do that for a while,” Dina whispers playfully.

Ellie’s cheeks flush pink, smiling in disbelief, her fingers flexing on Dina’s lower back. “Me too,” Ellie admits shyly.

Dina leans her forehead against Ellie’s again, swaying them together slowly under the twinkling lights.

[xaibaugrove]

An Analysis of Ellie

In honor of The Last Of Us Day, I’m finally gonna drag out this headcanon I’ve had in my drafts forever. If you choose to read this, good luck because it’s a long time. 

Of course, SPOILERS AHEAD. 

So, this all started with me thinking about how Ellie has suffered from survivor’s guilt ever since she discovered her immunity, when she was meant to die with her girlfriend/best friend Riley. 

In that moment, Ellie had already embraced death and wanted to share it with her loved one, but that was robbed from her. She continued to live while forced to watch who might have been the first person she ever loved turn from infection. Ellie had no explanation for why that gift of immunity had been given to her. She had that gift thrust upon her by forces outside of her control. Ellie had to contend with her new existence as someone immune to the infection that had torn apart Earth’s reality, trapped in a paradox as a young teenage girl in a post apocalyptic world, until Marlene relieved her of that pressure by giving her life meaning, by giving purpose to her immunity and bestowing an important identity upon her: the savior of the human race.

Before all that, Ellie had always been just a number. She was just an orphan kid in a sea of other faceless, nameless kids in a military boarding school, without a future or special kind of destiny in a bleak world without any real meaning. Suddenly, she was a savior for all humanity and tasked with the tremendous responsibility of staying alive. She had to contend with her life having more value than others, seeing people sacrificing themselves over and over again, for her, when she had lived as a nobody for all her life until that point when everything changed.

I can imagine that that was a lot for Ellie to deal with as a teenager, a key developmental time in her life when she is just learning who she is as a person. A lot of her identity was based on not having an identity. Being trained and destined to be a nameless soldier. So when that identity was called into question, when she was smacked in the face with immunity to a virus that killed her best friend and numerous people on the planet, she needed the absurdity of her existence to be reigned in by her new title of savior of the human race.

During her journey with Joel, while the player mostly experienced the story and struggle of Joel, Ellie was struggling with her own internal issues as the secondary character. She mainly dealt with the loss of her innocence but she also still carried within her a crippling survivor’s guilt. This is very apparent after the death of Tess. In that pivotal scene in Part 1, Tess made it abundantly clear that the only reason why she was sacrificing herself was because of Ellie’s immunity, to the point of physically grabbing Ellie by the arm and pointing to the point of infection, relegating Ellie to just her immunity. Of course it wasn’t Tess’s intention to do that, but one can only wonder how Ellie absorbed that moment, another moment that helped her in defining herself. Tess wasn’t risking her life to save Ellie the person. She sacrificed herself for the immunity, the potential cure Ellie carried within her. 

This assisted Ellie in defining herself by her immunity. Instead of thinking about herself and how she related to the world around her with all the contradictions of her childhood, and the relationships she formed with Joel and Sam, the people in that world, it was easier to just soldier through life with the sole goal of fulfilling her destiny. Saving the human race.

Then came the turning point in her life, when her identity was stripped from her by the very person she had come to trust and love the most.

In a way, Ellie had her autonomy taken from her by Joel and had to come to grips with that, the fact that Joel loved her and yet, hurt her deeply as a result of that love, without truly acknowledging it. In making this ultimate decision about her life for her, Joel triggered her survivor’s guilt and Ellie had no way of expressing it, 1. Because Joel lied to her about the situation and forced the conversation to be buried in that lie, and 2. Because even if she gathered the courage to confront him about the lie, she didn’t really have the cognitive ability at the time to express herself fully, to tell him exactly what was wrong with it. And maybe on some level, she didn’t really want to have the conversation and finally clarify the unspoken truth. If she did initiate the conversation, how could she be angry at him when his defense is that he did what he did out of love? What defense would an average teenager have against a parent making that statement in one of many common situations that could occur in normal settings?

Because of the decision that Joel made, he was able to be content with his surrogate daughter, living his best life in a way, while Ellie was devastated in the aftermath. And if he did notice her inner turmoil, he never addressed it. She was probably subtly carrying around that guilt with her for years. It might have even bothered her or made her hesitant to indulge in the many positive aspects of being alive: developing friendships, romantic relationships, normal childhood things. It wasn’t until Ellie was allowed to stew on it, contemplate everything and allow the guilt to fester within her that she was able to finally muster up the courage to have that difficult conversation with Joel.

In yet another pivotal scene, this time in Part 2, she gave him another chance to confess to what she suspected was a lie for multiple years when she was met with another trigger of her survivor’s guilt, during the reluctant excursion she embarked upon with Joel in search of strings for the guitar he made for her. In that scene, she questions him, counters his excuses and challenges him. Ellie gave Joel the chance to be honest with her. And his choice was to dig his heels in deeper, lying to her face once again. When watching Ellie’s expressions after Joel silenced her protests, so much can be seen in the way she looks at him for a moment.

She looks at him and thinks of how many things he has done to make her happy, out of love for her, and the immense contradiction she feels with those acts of love when compared to the greatest pain he inadvertently inflicted on her as well as the continuation of that pain through him perpetuating the lie. She gave him another chance and he betrayed her trust again. When Ellie looks away from Joel, her expression then reveals her innermost thoughts. Her eyes search the void between them to see that Joel will never admit to the lie and the only way for her to reinforce what she believes is the real truth is for her to seek out the answers herself. So she does.

When he did finally confess to everything, it broke her with not only how indifferent he was to it, but how he had destroyed any chance she could have of fulfilling her purpose. It possibly even reaffirmed the suspicions in the back of her mind that questioned his love for her due to how much he had hurt her without apologizing even once for it and how much he had taken from her in the process. The validity of all their past interactions were suddenly called into question as well, because although Joel did those things to make Ellie happy, every happy moment was always undercut by the tremendous amount of guilt she carried that outweighed the happier moments for her as her entire life was worthless to her, from the moment Joel removed her from that hospital.

After that revelation, her sense of self was thrown into limbo. Ellie severed her relationship with Joel and went back to Jackson with no idea of how to truly carry on with her life and live with herself after that. In order to appease herself in some way, she regained some type of control in navigating their relationship from that point on. Before, their relationship hinged entirely on how Joel wanted to interact with her, with him approaching her to progress their father-daughter relationship after he removed her agency by making choices for her. Post their argument at St. Mary’s, it’s important to note that Ellie assumed control and eliminated that progression entirely. A consolation prize, a reclamation of her agency in life. But it was never enough.

Regardless, things continued on like that for some time, but then something happened that shifted the trajectory of Joel and Ellie’s relationship. On a night when Ellie attended a party, she happened to find herself possibly feeling grateful for being alive when her longtime best friend expressed interest in her and made an advance toward her. 

After Joel intervened in a conflict between her and a dumbass bigot, she angrily went to confront him. She continued to exercise her control in their relationship by coming down hard on him. Her anger about everything was very apparent during their confrontation later that night and one can see that she still felt like her life was technically meaningless without her death for the sake of a cure for the salvation of the human race. During that scene she finally expresses exactly how she feels, what she hadn’t been able to articulate for years.

It’s important to note that before she says any of that, Joel disarms her. Joel asked her about the simplest of things, if Dina was her girlfriend. Then he placed an importance on her existence, by saying that Dina would be lucky to have her, which I believe Ellie thought about for a split second. She ruminated on her feelings, on how a potential romantic relationship with Dina made her feel happy to be alive, as it wouldn’t have been possible if she had died in the hospital. And this thought, that Joel could have been right to save her, that she could possibly agree with him, caused her survivor’s guilt to spiral and she lashed out at him with all the emotions she felt since he first agreed to smuggle her across the country years ago.

Then, in a turning point in their dynamic, Joel is finally forthright with her when he responds to her frustration by stating that he would do it all over again. As a result, for the first time ever, Ellie feels as though she can finally understand his motivations and the validity of his love for her. In his honesty, he tells her that her life does have value to him, even if she can’t see that herself. And although she will never forgive him for his transgression or fully understand it because she doesn’t see her own value as a person aside from the potential cure she carries within herself along with her immunity, she realizes that she can’t stop herself from wanting... From wanting to live, from wanting to experience the joys of life, wanting to just be human. Joel introduces a new purpose to her life, to simply exist without purpose and be herself and find value in her life as just a person living it. She can’t erase the past and change Joel’s choices that directly affected her in the end, but she can choose to try his suggestion. To live life, despite her guilt and despite how afraid she feels to do it. This late night moment of vulnerability between a father and daughter opens the door to them possibly repairing what was broken 4 years ago.

Her entire world is then shattered when Abby slams that door shut by killing Joel. Just when Ellie was setting down the path of finding the strength to move on and repair their relationship. Her survivor’s guilt was triggered and sent into overdrive by this event, because once she discovered that the people who killed Joel were ex-Fireflies, she came to the conclusion that Abby killed Joel in retaliation to him removing Ellie from the hospital and killing any hopes of a cure, along with all the Fireflies in the hospital. This essentially caused Ellie to believe that Joel was killed because of her in a roundabout way, as he would have still been alive if he hadn’t saved her, further enforcing her belief that her ultimate destiny in life was to die in that hospital. In Ellie’s mind, Joel died for a pointless reason, because she viewed herself as worthless.

Since she and Joel were the only ones who carried the secret of what really happened at St. Mary’s, there was no one else who could blame her or punish her for his death. Abby punished someone who didn’t deserve the blame and let Ellie go, leaving her to deal with the aftermath and that survivor’s guilt. In Ellie’s mind, it should have been her, but there was no way for her to have swapped herself in Joel’s place. So she punished herself in a different way. This sends her down her path of addiction to self-destruction.

Ellie had no way of punishing herself for her immunity for all those years, for surviving while others died for her. Abby provided an outlet for this desire. Ellie pursued Abby under the guise of getting justice for Joel but more can be ascertained from her constant push to find Abby, in her constantly doing things that go against her better nature, committing horrible acts and torturing people, debasing herself and pushing away those who love her or even putting them in danger while simultaneously traumatizing herself all at once. With every murder she committed, with every wound she sustained, she was punishing herself for being alive.

Each wound she suffered during that pursuit was like a high for her, an adrenaline rush. Each time she damaged her mental state even further with a new murder of one of Abby’s friends, she reinforced the belief that she deserved all of this for surviving. She deserved all the pain for being the cure, for being immune and benefiting from it while the world and everyone in it suffered. This is why Ellie can’t let go, even after her first encounter with Abby.

It was easy for Ellie to spiral in that self-destructive cycle. She punished herself for Joel’s death by pursuing Abby, which caused her closest friends to suffer because they were connected to her hunt for justice. Even when it all seemed to be over and Ellie tried to change. Tommy nearly died and wound up crippled and separated from his wife because of her and even JJ wound up without a father due to Jesse dying while helping her in her pursuit of Abby. This all contributed to her revisiting the same destructive path when Tommy accused her of not following through after all he had lost for her. Tommy started her self-punishment with that accusation. And once Ellie had the chance to think it all over, it was easy for her to return to the same bad habits. This is why she leaves and continues to pursue Abby, steeling herself against a near-fatal abdominal injury, doing whatever it takes to get to her, lying to herself this time, by telling herself all the while that it is in service of Joel. To repay his life that was taken from him. To even out the injustice.

Ellie realizes this lie when she is mere seconds away from exacting her revenge by drowning Abby in the ocean. Joel’s face flashes across her mind, of him during that night when he told her that her life had value. She realizes in that moment that killing Abby will not bring her peace, because the motivation behind the act is a lie. It will not give her life value or meaning, or purpose. Because her life already has value. Outside of a cure, outside of her immunity, outside of her saving humankind. Her life has value because of who she is, not what she can give to the world. And Ellie finally realizes that she must accept this to be whole. Killing Abby won’t help her do this...so she lets her go. She watches the boat leave as she sits in the ocean tides ebbing and flowing around her, thinking of how broken she is, how much she has lost and if she can bring herself back from the brink to find value in the meaningless existence she believed her life was for so long.

When she revisits the farm and contemplates all this while holding a guitar that she’ll never be able to play again, she recalls that memory, when Joel reminded her of her value. In that final scene, she realized that Joel was the first person in her life who didn’t see her for her immunity. Joel saw Ellie for who she was and saw value in her as a person. To such a degree that he was willing to risk all of humanity to keep her alive. She was then able to forgive him and know that he truly did love her for her, something no one else had ever done before him. And if he could love her for her, maybe she could learn to do the same.

[writingsbychlo]

💭 joel ??

so, I have this joel headcanon where he would fall in love with someone else on the way to meet aimee

it starts with there being someone else that is along with minnow and clyde

you didn’t get along at first, because you felt like he was going to slow your trio down, and those two were like your family now

but, minnow wants him to come along, and so you give in and let him

at first, there’s a lot of bickering as you argue about everything

but then the two of you bond a little bit on the night he shows you his drawings

and you help him go through, and add notes and names to the book

after that, you share your extra food with him while you're walking so that he can sleep while you take breaks

you also take it upon yourself to teach him some stuff

at first, it’s al because you think he’s a hindrance, and that is the excuse you use as you teach him

except, that's like a week now that you spend with each other, and it’s definitely enough to develop some feelings

and you also grow very attached to ‘boy’

on the last night before he separates form you both, you’re talking about everything that went on in your lives before it all

and as you’re comforting him about the loss of his parents, and him about you, while minnow and clyde sleep a few metres away and the two of your at, he kisses you

and, it’s really sweet

hand on your cheek, thumb running over your skin, super cute

afterwards, when you’re having little laughs, he makes a joke about hoping it was okay, because that was his first kiss since the monster-pocolypse

and, the next morning when you get on your way, you’re kinda hoping that he’s going to stay on with you

but, he says he’s still going

because he loves aimee

and the two of you get into an argument over it, and clyde and minnow don’t really get what's going on, but it’s a bad argument

so he separates form you both, and he tries to say goodbye, but you’re not really talking to him so he just sighs and gives up

and it hurts, both of you, and he tries to convince himself he made the right decision

and then, he gets to aimee’s colony alone, without ‘boy’, and when he wakes up, he talks to her

she’s busy, and something’s off, but he isn’t really all that cut up about it

so when she says everything is different now? she found someone else? he’s almost relieved, and he tells her all about you

and that’s when he realises he fucked up

he saves aimee’s colony, and goes back to rescue his own, and now, he feels like shit

because he was so fixated on getting to aimee and clinging to a part of his old life that he didn’t realise how great a new one could be

he does get to the ‘promised lands’ and finds minnow and clyde

and minnow is ecstatic to see ‘boy’ again

but you’re not there, and when he asks for you, he finds out you’re out hunting

your hunting party went out two weeks ago, and still haven’t come back yet

he gets worried, really worried, and finally, a further week and a half later, you return

you’re really tired, and a bit battered and bruised, but he is so happy to see you

of course, you have no idea he’s here yet, and you go straight to wash up

when he finally works up the nerve to confront you, it's only because you find him

and you tell him you’re glad he’s okay, and you’re sorry that you didn’t say goodbye, and that you hope he found aimee and everything worked out

he says he did find aimee, and she’s on her way here with her colony, and he went back to get his

and then he takes your hand, and says he’s really sorry and he doesn’t really have a speech, because he not good at speeches, but he does try to explain himself

and he doesn't do every well, he ends up making it sound like she’s just a second choice because aimee doesn't want him

so when he finally gets his point across, you’re a little bit mad and fed up

and he just has to stutter out that he thinks he’s falling in love with you

before you call him a dumbass, but he knows it’s affectionate, and now he’s smiling a little bit

and then he just says;

“I’m going to kiss you now.”

and you say;

“Are you gonna’ run off for another chick in the morning?” 

and he does a fake laugh while telling you that you’re oh-so-funny

before pushing in a little closer, and kissing you