#none of this is subtext this is all text i'm sorry to say

[thefabelmans2022]

bitches on here will write long ass posts about queer "subtext" in a show about WITCHES and act like it's revolutionary analysis. yeah girl witches in twentieth and twenty first century art are usually coded as persecuted and marginalised people. we know.

[henrysglock]

Is there a possibility, if the shadow is truly just an alien sentient being, that it's female? It's a weird thing to think, because it behaves like a virus and I don't think it would need to reproduce sexually, but IT was a pregnant female, and Ungoluant was a she apparently (never read LOTR). The shadow being female somehow would keep up with the theme, and it would partially explain why Vecna is so female coded at times, if it makes sense? Sorry if it's random, but whenever I have a random thought I like to hear what you have to say about it

Whatever it is, I think it defies the concepts of male and female. I also think it pushes the human concepts of male and female irt its victims. I'm not sure we can assign it one way or the other.

As you mentioned, the Mindflayer is compared to a virus, and viruses technically reproduce asexually. However...they do require a host. For all intents and purposes, viruses "impregnate" cells. They use injectable genetic material that hijacks the cell's own reproductive machinery in order to produce a "brood", so to speak, of viruses. The cell then bursts, releasing the young. Are viruses male or female, then?

There's also the additional point of the repeated AIDS/phallic/homosexual subtext (hell, even blatant text in some areas), and while we could compare it to Alien, with the facehuggers being a spider-like symbol of oral rape/"what if men could get pregnant by rape"...but even then the facehuggers laid young, which is more of a democreature thing, see: Will and the tentacles.

So we end up with all this AIDS/homosexual rape subtext that's completely separate from the references to the other homosexual oral rape (but still female, technically) subtext, which has me walking right back to "are viruses male or female?"

I'm also wary of thinking they'll copy too directly. The Duffers copy a lot, but none of it is an exact 1-to-1. So while it would fit the theme...I'm not sure it's entirely what they're going for. Having it be the same concept but with an inversion on the mode of reproduction/link to biological maleness and turning the victims into the female (rather than just having eggs like IT or grown young into incubator-type victims like Alien) would be something that's in-keeping with the Duffers' habits of trope subversion.

[casasupernovas]

you know what im just gonna say it.

i really dislike the assertion that people dislike rose in series 2 because we can't bear to see her more 'confident' and 'assertive.' more 'sure of herself.'

not only is this a blatant glossing over of rose's actual arc in that season - which was becoming a more selfish person (i'm sorry it is the truth), but here's the thing:

we all know what a confident, more self assured, brilliant rose looks like. i champion the first season so hard because it does it perfectly. rose is wearing red in the last two episodes because she's confident enough to wear red now, and she can pull it off too. no more loose fitting clothes, but fun, vibrant ones - see boom town.

the most blatant and best example of rose becoming more assertive, self assured and confident is in 'the long game', where the doctor is visibly proud of her as she shows adam around, showing how much she has learned.

that, is a confident rose tyler. she's not perfect but she's grown.

rose's 'confidence' in series 2 manifests in ugly ways and it's the truth, and that's because she's not becoming more confident, she's becoming cold. her cocky attitude towards cassandra shows her becoming fearless but also the girl who plead for cassandra's life before is nowhere to be found, now she laughs at the memory of cassandra's demise. next, she stares at a man being mauled to death and shows that she completely doesn't care seconds later, preferring to prioritise giddy excitement at seeing a werewolf. she's becoming desensitised. she's eager to trip up a pig in the 50s with the doctor, leaving the family to suffer the mess after the door is closed. "you've had your fun." quickly dismisses the alien in 'fear her.' in some cases, she's only empathetic when the narrative needs us to feel sorry for characters like elton despite expressing anger moments earlier.

rose isn't disliked for being 'confident' in series 2. she's disliked because rose loses most of her best qualities, or if they were there, they are in the background, not the foreground. in fact, some are so much in the back that they're literally in deleted scenes.

none of what i say should be controversial honestly. it is within the actual subtext and literal text of the show. s4 rose is another entity entirely though.

[cosmicjoke]

i am so sorry u had to deal with that anon, i hope you are feeling ok! :’) it sucks how shippers make their own reputation bad by not accepting another perspective/opinion :/ and to go to this extent over a fictional ship is just… something else😭 i’ll never understand how some can’t just enjoy their ship in peace and always have to prove it is canon and fight everyone else who doesn’t think like them, as if you can’t enjoy a ship otherwise?

anon just reminded me why i never took an interest in any levi ship, and i probably never will. i sooo wanted to say that i didn’t understand why anon suddenly started to hate on levi x oc shippers, but it’s obvious bc most oc’s are depicted as women and that is against their ‘canon’ ship and beliefs about levi😭 why care so much, levi can be whatever sexuality you want seeing as nothing was confirmed, so just take a step back, touch some grass and let people enjoy whatever they like :’)

anyways, once again im sorry u had to deal with all of that i can’t even imagine how tiring or frustrating it must be to always be attacked/asked about the same things constantly. i love your levi posts and i feel like you really analyze him very well! happy holidays :’)

Thank you so much, truly.

I've said again and again that I have nothing against any ship or shipping group. People can ship Levi with whoever they want. But these people who harass me over it, then accuse me of "talking" about it all the time, but the only reason I talk about it is because they're the ones asking me about it.

The thing is, is I just want to talk about what's in the actual story. Levi has no love interest in the story, either directly acknowledged or even implied. Everything this person sited as evidence or "proof" of Levi being romantically interested in Erwin, I addressed to the best of my abilities. They didn't want to accept it, and then they accuse me of being a hypocrite, trying to claim that all of my analysis posts are based on the same, speculative, inconclusive and flimsy material they base their beliefs on. As if breaking down text, expression, sequential order of panels, and patterns in the text and past character behavior is the same as taking an off-handed comment from Isayama in an interview from ten years ago or whatever and using it as proof of some super secret hidden romantic interest between Levi and Erwin. You can literally look at every post of mine analyzing AoT and find evidence supporting, pretty damn concretely, my conclusions in the actual text. And I'm hardly alone in that. There's many, many great AoT fans who write brilliant analysis posts about the manga/anime, using only the source material. But these people can never point to a single panel or word bubble or piece of text that supports this notion that Levi was in love with Erwin, or anyone, for that matter. They need to site promotional material to try and back up their claims, and extrapolate meaning from the panels and texts which isn't, in any discernible, concrete way actually supported by the text and panels. They literally need to twist Levi's words and actions in the most absurd, nonsensical, illogical manner in order to make it fit. That isn't how Isayama operates as a writer. Even when there's subtext, there's a clear, undeniable line between it and the action on the page. That's what analysis is based on, after all. There has to be a viable, evident reason for drawing certain conclusions.

Levi holding the serum against his chest, or touching Erwin's hand when he took the serum from him, or him thinking of Erwin when wondering who he could revive, none of that is enough proof in and of itself to support a romantic interest between them. I tried explaining to this person what those things actually indicate within the story. The last two don't mean anything. It's just how the panels were drawn. But the first, if this person had paid any kind of attention to Levi's actual relationship with Erwin, and how Levi regarded Erwin, and the reasons he was so loyal to Erwin, would understand that he thought of Erwin in that moment because he regarded Erwin as the leader that humanity needed, and that humanity's future was dependent on Erwin's survival. It's the entire reason Levi tried to stop Erwin from going to Shinganshina in the first place. I come to all of those conclusions based on the actual text and what we know about the characters leading up to that point.

I explained all of this to this fool in my initial reply to them, and they accused me of "brushing them off", lol.

Anyway, whatever. But thank you so much again for your support. I just can't seem to get away from these people, haha.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi! Do you remember Sam saying that "lestat needs to understand it's his fault all people he turned into vampire left him" including Gabrielle and Nicki. Do you agree with him? Because unless they'll majorly change dynamics between Lestat and Gabrielle and Nickistat it's not his fault? Gabrielle and Lestat couldn't stay together because they ultimately needed different things and I always felt they understood that, and Nicki was mentally ill... I'm honestly scared how they'll spin those relationship because they changed a lot from loustat dynamic in IWTV (book), while they added more romance, they added more physical abuse too and outcome turned out completely different (in book there's grey area concerning Claudia murdering Lestat, in show he deserved everything and way more etc) I just really hope they know what they're doing. I saw too many takes and theories how bad Lestat was to Nicki and Gabrielle, and if those turned out to be true I don't know what to do. I get that Rolin wants character redemption arc, but the way lestat's character morally made way worse for that is not a good thing IMO. Lestats antagonistic role in first book was more because of Louis general misunderstanding of lestats character, who he truly see in the end of the book. In the show Louis knows way more about Lestats past already AND lestats way more awful to Louis and Claudia. It can't be simple miscommunication (in simplifying terms). So I truly trust Sam with lestats character but I don't trust writers and unfortunately Sam can't influence them (at least majorly) Basically I'm afraid of them making Lestat even MORE removed from book!canon for the sake of future arc when there's no need for that

Sorry for the rant, but you're one of my favorite blogs in fandom, and your answers always do thoughtful, I thought I'd share my concerns with you

Glad you like my blog!

Tbh, I differ a bit with the judgement of Lestat being removed from the books... The show pulled all the subtext up (*ducks away from Sam*), not just the implied sexual components, but also in regards to the abuse. The abuse is in the books, it's text, it's good to remember that.

And Lestat can be quite capricious, and an ass, and he is a killer. They all are. I don't think he is that much removed from book!canon actually, especially when you consider that... we haven't even seen the real Lestat yet.

The only(!!!) "real" Lestat we get in season 1... is "Come To Me". And if you look at the text there, it is surprisingly insightful, I've written about it here (and I'll go over it in today's chapter of 'Laden').

Louis is telling us his story, for an effect. He wanted to omit Lestat in Paris, and for that he had to be dead, and it had to be inevitable for him to be dead. The reason for this interview is still unclear at this point, though I believe it has a lot more to do with Daniel and Armand than the need for an actual second interview^^.

I'd be very careful with theories and metas taking only what is the "first level" of it all at face value, namely what Louis is telling to Daniel. That is a tale, and that tale has already been broken apart at the end of episode 7. Was it all a lie? No, most certainly not.

But it was not the (whole) truth either and told for an effect.

So, I'd... suggest not to fret just yet.

From what I've seen and what I've heard... there is literally no reason to worry. 😅

None.

For all the characters btw, not just Lestat.

I think they did their homework, and magnificently so, too. That will show in all the relationships, in the one to Gabrielle and Nicolas, too, but... remember we are likely on Lestat's POV then... and that will be massively different.

The writers are playwrights, let's let them tell their tale :), and then we can judge after.

But I'm not worried at all tbh. Just giddy.

[captain-astors]

Hi! Can you do 001 for trigun and 003 shirazu?

1. I am glad to know you’re not a bot for certain at long last because I enjoy consistently spotting you in my notes, also sorry this took so long.

2. ABSOLUTELY?? You have functionally handed me an early christmas present in an ask. I'm going to divide this up into two posts, this’ll be the Trigun one, I’ll do the Shirazu one in a separate post.

Favorite character: 

LEGATO BLUESUMMERS MY DEAREST. Oh this poor man. I can’t even say “I want him to get better” because he would resist it with all his might and I can’t say I want him to get worse because this man is at rock bottom and actively digging deeper. Hugging him is not enough. I need to divide him into atoms, sort them into categories, and hope it gives him relief. I have 99 problems and seeing Legato heal wouldn’t solve a lot of them but it would be great. 

Least Favorite character: 

Difficult question because I really do like them all. Is none an option. I could just go with a random side character who exists just to be scum of the earth but I suppose if I’m looking for “was marginally involved” Stampede Conrad makes me want to hit my head against a wall. 

5 Favorite ships (canon or non-canon): 

Mashwood and all its individual parts, the insurance girlfriends, Summerknives? Millionssummers? But for the consequences of feelings more than an actual belief that they have the capacity to be a couple. I saw Zaziemeryl once and that was sweet. Everyone x Therapy. 

Character I find most attractive: 

No idea. Wolfwood? I’m starting to realize there are very few characters I’m actually acutely attracted to aesthetically for long periods of time but I’ve been loving his expressions for as long as he’s existed. Also I’m not sure about attractive per say but Zazie has such splendid gender and I would like them to share. 

Character I would marry: 

Vash. I am not immune to his sopping wet energy and the freakish height. I would like to either carry him in my arms or be carried, either is fine.  

Character I would be best friends with: 

Zazie! Or alternatively I would sell my soul for a hug with Milly. I’d say I could have trans solidarity with Elendira but unfortunately she wants everyone dead and that might cause a lot of awkward conversations.

a random thought: 

I really want to lick stampede knives’ snuggie thing. 

An unpopular opinion: Whenever someone attempts to quantify Legato and Knive’s dynamic as simple pining, mentorship, or even familial, they inherently lop off an intrinsically necessarily quality of that same dynamic which is the fact that Legato does, more than anyone else, see Knives as an actual god. He worships him, and what a terrible thing it is to love your god. Also Roberto was lovely but he did have to die. 

My Canon OTP: 

What canon couples are there? Whatever the ‘98 anime was trying to set up between Wolfwood and Milly was sweet so I suppose that. 

My Non-canon OTP:

Technically it’s half-canon but, Millionsummers, but in a I-want-to-see-the-consequences way.

Most Badass Character: 

Dominique the Cyclops or Elendira the Crimsonnail. 

Most Epic Villain: 

They’re both villains so… see above. 

Pairing I am not a fan of: 

Pl*ntc*st. WHY is it so popular now, YES the subtext has always been there but no one demanded you to make it TEXT.

Character I feel the writers screwed up (in one way or another): 

Elendira deserved more attention in Maximum, she’s so cool. 

Favourite Friendship:

Hmm… Milly and Meryl. 

Character I most identify with: 

Legato. I’m fine, trust me. 

Character I wish I could be:

Zazie! No contest. They’re just living their best life.

Thank you!

[neurotheascars]

Re: the post about bullying people on misspellings and reading comprehension and such.

no real, I’m the person people talk about when they say dyslexia

(I have all the other ones too, dysgraphia, dyscalclia, dyspraxia too)

And so my reading comprehension and also spelling is kinda trash, not in a bad faith way but in a “I genuinely completely missed like a whole paragraph” way.

which just sucks, I’m still extremely new to the whole “writing” thing.

genuinely if you saw something from a couple years ago vs now you’d be flabbergasted at how much we’ve improved.

but I always thought it was extremely rude to bully and or be mean about people who don’t understand or read things right or write things right.

you just genuinely do not know who they are and why they do it, whenever I try to correct someone I say it kindly and give constructive feedback.

Like genuinely it’s not hard to be kind, some people are still learning, sometimes it’s someone’s second language, sometimes they use speech to text and text to speech.

it’s just such a deeply ingrained belief that anyone who misspells or misspeaks or misunderstands is dumb or stupid.

I can’t even count on my fingers how many times I’ve misheard, worded something trash, or misunderstood or misinterpreted something.

but that’s just how I am and I can’t change it, but I can change my reaction and outcome and make friendships even after fucking up.

it’s just a sad feeling that even if you have the best intentions you still fail horribly, subtext and tone are hard to parse through, so much meaning and context gets a bit screwy when you write it down.

and sometimes life is filled with mistakes and failures and there’s nothing wrong with that, I can’t know everything and I probably never will.

I love the quote

“a jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one.”

because yeah, I’ll never be a master at English or talking or anything.

but I can be a jack of all trades, I can try to learn and be better.

more skills even though I’m not a master at any, helps so much.

We beat ourselves up and others for things we can’t control rather than lift ourselves and others up.

that’s just my thoughts on it, I just didn’t want to add it on the main post it’s pretty unrelated to the original lol.

-pop

You are so very nice to write all this pop. Sorry I take a bit to respond. The system has been super busy.

The "trouble" that I mentioned in the tags that I got into was when I said I unfollowed someone for being rude about reading comprehension and had a complete stranger come out of nowhere and correct me like I was talking about them when I wasn't and then when I said I wasn't and was frustrated that people apparently do this enough to assume unrelated call outs about it are vagues about them, they acted like I was "rude" and like...

I'm an alter that has slammed doors hard enough to crack walls. I've said such utterly fucked things. I am trying my hardest, my best, to be nice when I'm upset. I have come so far and it hurts. I use all my energy when I do it. Tumblr is almost like a kind of language thinking therapy for me. It's a good place to practice being as polite as I can, because it's safer to fail online as opposed to IRL, where backspace and walk away are not options.

To try as hard as I did and still be called rude is... Ugh. It's just awful. Especially when it was an otherwise cool blog that said that about me. They even said on their blog separately if another alter apologized on my behalf that they'd be friends with them and just avoid me.

And that's actually trauma for me! That kind of thing seriously destabilizes my system. I've had people literally abuse my system by manipulating us like that and talking about me, calling me an asshole like I can't hear. But I get that that's just a mistake too.

It's all mistakes!

I think the world would be a better place if more mistakes were seen as harmless.

Also I vibe with the jack of all trades bit. We definitely as a system feel that.

[justheretofollowstuff]

Sorry....No.

The game EXPLICITLY states that Mohg was under the inluence of Miquella BEFORE entering the Land of Shadows and being kidnapped, with him being active enough to have managed to charm Ansbach.

"Once, in an attempt to free Lord Mohg from his enchantment, I challenged Tender Miquella, only to have my own heart rather artfully stolen. I knew not how weak I was." - Ansbach

Miquella was in an unconcious state when he was kidnapped (the cocoon only breaks after we walk in, after all). This event had to happen BEFORE the kidnapping, which means that Miquella had already charmed Mohg andplanned this all out in advance. You can think about that what you want from a satisfaction or writing perspective, but it is text, there is no other way to explain this other than Ansbach is somehow unreliable - but you would have to present proof for that, of which there is none.

It also makes no sense to mention Thiollier here - of course he wouldn't be obsessed with Trina...Because Miquella's charm makes people dedicated to Miquella, not Trina - they have fundamentally different powers even if they were once in the same body. Again, the proof is in Ansbach, who rejects Miquella after the charm is broken - he was the only one of the followers who was forced into submission to Miquella, all the other ones held genuine loyalty towards him because of his charisma.

None of this is subtext - all of this is explained very clearly to the player, in a way Souls games almost rarely do.

Edit: I should add I'm not a 'Mohg was a good boy all along' truther. You are right in saying that Miquella's charm doesn't change people's personality, it shifts their loyalties, perspectives and attentions. Mohg was likely always a creepy, evil weirdo, it's just that Miquella's influence forced him to focus that entirely on him.

about miquella's kidnapping, you know the charm only works if miq gets really close in your face (see heart stolen + freyja's account of being healed) and it doesn't do a 180° in your personality (the npcs in the shadow realm are there to show us how it affects them and we can see it didn't change their personality) what the charm does is: make you non-violent (see heart stolen) makes you forget bad things (see leda and ansbach remembering "cascading sheets of blood" after the charm is broken)

if anything, I'd say the charm would've made him more sane, take thioller for example he's completely obsessed with trina after the charm is broken, to the point where he tries to kill you after she talks to you

compare thioller's dialogue:

"i am her chosen, not you. only I can doze off in the sea of st. trina"

and

"only i am allowed to know. of your velvety sleep. its sweetly gentle embrace. so please, smile—for me, and only me." (st. trina's smile)

to mohg's dialogue:

"miquella is mine and mine alone"

both are possessive and obsessed. miquella's charm nullified thioller's obsession, and I have no reason to believe miquella can just pick and choose the side effects his charm will have.

my points on why miquella did not want to be kidnapped

1 - he wouldn't have cocooned himself for a long ass time like he did otherwise. and you know he was there for a long time because he's all skinny and covered in cocoon liquid stuff. and mohg wouldn't need to break open his cocoon like he did, he would just take it back to his palace

2 - miquella couldn't have known mohg even existed. he lived in the sewers his whole life, and miquella never went to the sewers. also, even if he did, he couldn't have charmed him there bc otherwise ansbach would never know to differentiate a non-charmed mohg from a charmed mohg .

3 - mohg is already a established kidnapper. from the "war surgeon gown":

"Bloodstained white gown of the war surgeons who were effectively mercy killers. Of the surgeons that were abducted by the Lord of Blood, none were able to tame the accursed blood. None but Varré, that is; though he was an exception."

4 - mohg had his own reasons to kidnap miquella. he wanted to build his blood dynasty and to become a lord, as ansbach says he was seeking lordship, and the consort of an empyrean is a lord by right (see dark moon ring description). miquella is the only empyrean available, as ranni is presumed dead and malenia already has a god inside of her (and he could never kidnap her), leaving only miquella who apparently doesn't have an outer god meddling inside of him, so perfect vessel for the formless mother

now, you're probably wondering "well if the mohg thing wasn't planned, who would be used as a vessel for his consort??" to answer that, miquella probably didn't know he needed a vessel in the first place, as the ">>>secret<<< rite scroll" is only found in the shadow realm, he couldn't have known about that thing while living in the lands between.

verdict: miquella was forced to switch plans after the kidnapping (can't complete anything he starts curse yadda yadda), mohg did not beat the allegations, and miquella got his revenge for being used (mohg was living/sleeping inside his corpse how do yall forget this???) by using mohg's corpse to house his promised consort's soul somehow (which is awful too, but that goes without saying)

remember, the story in the dlc is there to parallel his ascension to marika's ascension. in this case, the hornsent killed and tortured marika's people, and she responds by genociding and terrorizing the hornsent people. mohg used and abused miquella's corpse, and he responded by using mohg's corpse.

marika = miquella

hornsent = omen

I just think it's weird that so many people are running off with the assumption that miquella, who the dlc all but confirm has the body AND mentality of a child, was charming mohg out of malicious intent rather than self-defense. remember he was probably never trained to fight nor does he have the strength to do it, the charm is basically his self-defense mechanism.

I think the main issue is that if you disagree on even the littlest thing here, the whole narrative shifts, and that's why there's so many different interpretations and confused people.

this is all subjective and there's no reason to claim my interpretation is the correct one ofc but I do think I make a good argument.

[buck-yyyy]

alright. for the past week or so i've been thinking a lot about the ST fandom space on tumblr, and i'm gonna be so blatantly honest--the "hive mind" that we all talk about and love, especially when it comes to byler, is starting to feel like a bad thing. i feel like we've built up a lot of unrealistic expectations for what season five is going to look like, and for lack of better available phrasing... i really wish that that mindset had never formed.

(to be clear--i am including myself in this criticism!! i am not excluded from what i am saying in the slightest. just to make sure none of you think i'm saying i'm exempt from it or that i think i'm better than anyone, because i am NOT)

anyways, i made this tier-list to be as show-accurate as possible in terms of each character's relevance. stranger things is an ensemble show, but not every character is going to be given the same amount of screen time or have the same amount of attention paid to their storylines, and i think that the division between primary, secondary, and tertiary protagonists in the show is often misconstrued in ways that lead people to believe that a lack of focus on a character's story is some sort of bigoted failing on the writers' part.

(this is not about lucas, erica, or patrick. every single criticism of the way their storylines have been handled by the writers, especially with the treatment of lucas and erica, is absolutely true. this show has a racism problem, fucking acknowledge it).

anyways, to the best of my ability, i've put the protagonists and antagonists in order of their importance/prevalence to the main story*. they have separate tiers, because i don't feel they're fully comparable.

this has nothing to do with what characters i like the most, or how well i think that their stories were written/pulled off--this is simply my own examination of how each character feeds into the fundamentals of what stranger things is. this does not take theories or speculation into account--this is SOLELY based strictly on the text.

i'm not including edward, rosemary, or any other speculative theory-based characters, because 1. i'm trying to be unbiased and don't want to favor specific theories over some i haven't heard of, and 2. they are moreso subtext than text at the moment. no i'm not counting newspapers or set design as text. sorry if that comes across as rude.

owens is in his own category because i cannot for the life of me figure out whether or not he's actually a good guy. chrissy, patrick, and fred are also in their own category because they're not necessarily protagonists, but they're certainly not antagonists--they're more devices in the story than anything else.

there's definitely room for improvement, and i'm very much open to criticism on how i've structured this--but please for the love of god just keep it constructive, don't call me an idiot or be condescending because i didn't take your theories into account when putting this together. i'm just one dude!!!

anyways. the biggest reason i made this is because i am firmly of the opinion that vickie being under-developed compared to other main ships is NOT lesbophobic, it's simply the fact that robin is not a primary protagonist and is therefore not going to be paid the same amount of screen time as certain other characters. it sucks that vickie is a carbon-copy of robin, and it sucks that she's barely gotten any characterization, especially since amy mcnulty is an incredible actor, but it isn't subtle or unintentional homophobia. it's the fact that robin (and by extension, her love interest) is not as important to the story as ships including one or multiple of the primary protagonists.

*flayed!billy (ST3) and billy hargrove (ST2) are noted as different characters and have different places in the tier-list, as are henry, vecna, the mindflayer, and the meatflayer.

[neven-ebrez]

I'm having a lot of trouble connecting to S14 meta. Most are so upbeat about Dean's current state, seeing everything pointing to Dean's bisexuality & Destiel endgame. But the show doesn't see Dean just thru a shipping lens. And by side stepping around the Michael arc, I feel like these metas are ignoring how Dean's past trauma, his self worth issues, his search for an individual identity, etc have to be (painfully) resolved first. Maybe, as you say, it's b/c Sam's already in endgame?

I’m sorry but I’ve honestly got no clue what is being said!  I don’t actively seek out Destiel positive meta anymore because my opinion on the whole Destiel writing situation is pretty firm and imo is a fair opinion that doesn’t need to change because there’s no one out there who is writing “meta” who knows anything more than what I already do.  I absolutely mean that without arrogance.  I say this because I can’t know where your disconnect is because I’m not reading what you are reading so I can’t even begin to know where the trouble is.  

I’d say Dean’s current state isn’t any more or less hopeful than what it was in S13 after getting Cas, Mary and Jack back.  Dean is off visiting Mary and Bobby, maintaining his family connections.  Dean is out helping to train Jack because he listened to him and helped Jack with what he said he needed emotionally and physically.  All that is good.  Dean keeps a beat on what Cas is doing and he’s okay with him not 100% being by his side at all times, just so long as he’s in his life.  Same for things with Sam.  Everyone is alive so Dean “is good”.  It’s all very “healthy”.  But.  When push comes to shove, if any of this was taken away I’m really very sure Dean would slide right back down as far as the show needed him to go in order to buy time.  This is Sam and Dean’s dream, the best situation for their well being.  Their family is more or less “safe” and they are no longer isolated and desperate to be in one another’s pockets.  If this was threatened, if any of this was taken away, I think they’d be right back in the same mindset and situation they always have been in, desperate to get their “core” family back.  The impending loss of Jack threatens this more than any other current factor.  

The lens of “family” is how this show operates, and yes, some of that is romantically coded.  I’d argue Destiel has been actively coded as romantic since 6x20.  It’s been subtextually romantically structured for Dean’s happiness since S8 (arguably S7).  But structure and coding are not active plans for text.  In my opinion, there’s an active structure in place for Dean to be developed to a point to say something to get Cas to stay, and that there have been many textual bridges burned at this point, but none of that absolutely means romantic text is definite, only reasonably more likely.  I can say this, however.  Nothing is actively and structurally being done to address Dean’s bisexuality to bring that subtext into text.  Nothing.  Whether that’s positive or negative, I can’t say, due to the show’s age.  Subtextual hints are just that, hints.  And stuff like 8x13, 10x16, 11x04, 11x11 these are all unstructured vague texts that structurally lead nowhere, because the show historically has a problem with its own subtextual --- > textual follow through.  They are not writing a “coming out” arc for Dean.  It’s honestly too late for that.  A decade too late.  

We could get into the question of “Does the show not think this is needed then, for possible eventual text?” and at this point I’d argue, “No, they don’t think it is needed.”  Then we ask, “Why not?” and there’s two reasonable answers: because the subtext and vague text is never becoming anything more OR the show is gonna lean so hard into the vague text and visual presentation of Destiel that they think this will be enough to get their point across (which either could or could not leave room for interpretation, depending on what is done exactly).  A coming out narrative is always obvious to those that know what to look for, just look at what B99 did recently.  A coming out narrative always leans into getting both dialogue and (usually, eventually) visual text.  Supernatural has no interest in this from what I can tell and I’ve honestly been looking at it for a long ass time.  I could argue this is without malicious intent simply because of the show’s age, and the position showrunner Dabb has been left in, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is never happening at this point imo.  

Prior to the start of the season I think it was tough to see how Michael was going to translate structurally into Dean’s character development exactly.  But now I think it’s clearer.  He’s the father version of Dean’s childhood trauma in the same way Amara (and the whole MOC arc) was the mother version of the same.  Until Dean confronts his father (likely, physically) he’s standing still, much like he was without Cas in early S13.  And while Dean is reasonably surviving and living now, that’s not the same as truly thriving and stepping into the future.  I think if you are reading meta that doesn’t acknowledge this is needed (for Destiel, Dean’s general development, whatever) then you are simply reading someone who doesn’t understand what Michael structurally translates to.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell.  I was rough on S12 because I didn’t realize what the MOL really “translated” to until after the season was over.  Sometimes these things can only be seen at the end.  It’s even tougher when you see how Dabb likes to tell and structure two stories at once: the present season and the next one.  

I fell for the same trap and gave a real harsh structural opinion on early S13 because I didn’t yet recognize this as Dabb’s structuring style.  He did it in S12 too, but I was so thoroughly bored with the MOL that I didn’t bother to actively consider what they structurally translated to, how they and Mary effected Sam’s trajectory, nor how Dabb was having us consider the nature of Jack before he ever entered the picture.  It was an unknowable storyline at the time S12 aired so the full appreciation of the structure is only apparent on retrospection.  S13 was the same, with foreshadowing for Michael!Dean very, very early in the season.  Whatever is coming next, it’s likely that we’ve already been exposed to the idea of it.  I think the important thing to take away is this though: Dabb finishes what he starts.  That isn’t to say the show doesn’t have a history of dropping things, even structurally significant things, but Dabb so far doesn’t do this (with the exception of the fall through of Wayward, which has been reworked back into Supernatural).  If the structure is saying Dean needs to confront his dad about his past trauma (but again, his repressed sexuality doesn’t seem to be a factor as I believe we would have gotten heavy mirrors by now if the show was going to do this in a textual way), then I think that’s exactly what we are going to get.  The show structurally blamed Mary.  Now it structurally blames John.  

And then none of this is even touching Cas’ side of things.  He’s happy and accepting that no matter what he’s got himself.  He’s in a good mental place.  He doesn’t even care about his powers and “usefulness” anymore in the way he used to and he’s honestly much better for it.  There’s still shame, I think, in how he views how he wants Dean in his life (and here the show has provided a lot of structural support and this is honestly like a flavor of a coming out narrative, closer than anything Dean himself has anyway). But before that, I think if he had the option he’d still like to try and help Heaven.  And we know he’s going to be drawn back in to something there soon...  

There’s still a lot to address.  For them both.  The fact these structures exist, and that they exist around them and between them both (Cas is absolutely essential to Dean’s well being and his future courtesy of S13), tells us how the show approaches its own endgame.  But I can’t say this enough, neither one of these structures (not Dean’s leveled on dialogue and not Cas’ leveled on action) present a narrative that requires explicit romantic text or action to be resolved.  This is something that must always be kept in mind imo, so I don’t mind saying it as much as I have to as a balance to all the optimism and hope.  I do think, however, that the chances of text are greater now than they ever had been (whereas before me saying this was just wishful thinking against unknowable pacing).  For whatever that’s worth to those that care to read my opinions on this.

[amwritingmeta]

Love your take on everything & it really gives me hope for a destiel endgame. I was wondering if you had noticed Dean getting a bit more 'camp'? I don't subscribe to that kind of stereotype normally but as Jensen, a supposedly straight, (let's keep cockles out of this!) actor's interpretation of bi, it seems as though his mannerisms have been somewhat feminised, maybe? I'm thinking mostly of The Face that Mary points out. (also Max's interest in the grenade launcher interests me!) discuss :-)

Helloooo my dear and lovely Nonny! 

Yes, this reply is long overdue and all I can ask is your forgiveness!! Thank you so much, I’m glad you’re enjoying my take and that it gives you hope! :)

I’ve had to ponder this question for a good long while, tbh, because I kind of know what you mean, but I also feel that Jensen’s mannerisms as Dean have had a few wrist flicks and eye rolls that have always felt overly dramatic because Dean can be high drama, right? I don’t know if I’d necessarily label these things as camp or feminised, though.

I mean, I could watch this gif forever. This moment is so fucking awesome! :P

We could theorise into eternity about what’s true and what’s not true about how Jensen claims to play Dean so straight and so uber-masculine, right? I mean… proof’s in the pudding, puddin’ - and even though the editors can change the meaning of a scene by cutting out parts or changing stuff around, there are too many moments that are clearly directed, if not chosen by Jensen in how to be acted out, that are done so in order to be edited in a certain way. There have been these moments of wrist flicking from the beginning, I’d say, because it’s how Dean moves in certain moods or moments. 

Anyone who disagrees with this, please, do jump in! I encourage you adding your thoughts and interpretation!

Now, I know we could debate where Jensen stands until we’re all blue in the face and we’d still be none the wiser. I know a lot of people who believe he sincerely did not know that Dean is meant to be bisexual and that he played him straight as a doornail for eleven or twelve years until someone said, look, we’re deciding to move forward with the love story so, beware, Dean is in love with Cas and this is happening. And I think this is fair enough! Because Jensen has been so outspoken about how he plays Dean and relates to Dean and Dean is s.t.r.a.i.g.h.t.

Yeah, in there lies the problem for me. In what motivation he’s had to make this statement again and again. I find it hard to believe that an actor would work on any project for over a decade and not take an interest or feel curiosity about how the narrative is built. Actually, I find it improbable. Jensen has spoken about how he used to fill every page of the scripts he’d get with thoughts on Dean’s motivation. Does this mean Jensen knew Dean is meant to be bi? Nope. And I can’t argue for or against, merely say that it doesn’t add up to me - at all - that an actor who is so in tune with his craft and who clearly cares about this character would play him - consistently - for twelve years without really knowing him. 

There is this marked pattern with Dean where he’s attracted to a man and immediately overcompensates by chasing a woman and it’s established in 2x02 with Ash and Jo (if not sooner…). It’s fascinating to watch that episode and notice this pattern because it becomes like a subliminal thing. 

It in no way works as proof that Jensen chose to play Dean attracted to Ash, and running after Jo to narratively compensate for it, like it’s a subtextual scale that weighs too hard on one side and then immediately needs to be righted by overtly stating that Dean prefers women. (which looking at the subtext blatantly just is not the whole truth and never was) But it’s a character trait that is brushed at from the start and then becomes the lynchpin for so many important character moments and, looked at that way, even works as foreshadowing for Castiel and the role he’s going to play in Dean’s character progression. But I shan’t go into deeper details on that now because then we’ll be here until Christmas morning. 

What I’m saying is that this has been a conscious part of Dean’s character from the beginning (to my mind) and my mind fucking boggles at the idea that Jensen - who has dedicated such a huge chunk of his career to playing Dean, a performance that will, most likely, be a career defining one - would not know everything there is to know about Dean. 

Okay, I’m crossing over into complete Jensen-behaviour conjecture and speculation and that’s not really what your question was about. (though they do relate, as your question reflected) :P

As for Max and the grenade launcher (god what a lovely choice of topic you throw my way!!) :) –>

Max is gay. Max is hot. Max likes the look of Baby. Max is invited to view Baby’s goodies. Max notices the grenade launcher. 

(that wasn’t meant to come out as the text for a story book for children) (…or was it) ;)

This has been discussed before so it’s very likely that you’ve read up on it a while back because I am so damn late in replying, buuuuut let me still give you the bare bones of this exchange, yeah? I mean, they’re pretty amazing bones.

The exchange between Max and Dean opens with Max saying that Baby is still “major” and Dean offering him the tour. Which consists of what? Max calling out the grenade launcher. And Dean replying to Max’s question of “is that a grenade launcher” with “yes she is” but then immediately grabbing what they need: witch killing bullets. 

I mean, the actual lead into this exchange is Max telling everyone he successfully got a guy’s phone number, right? Dean making this face:

What’s so amazing is how Dean gets a dose of a guy completely and utterly at ease with his sexuality, and then we’re taken to the trunk of Baby - the prop that Jensen says “is a part of me”, speaking as Dean…….. - and shown the phallic shaped monstrosity of a weapon in serious need of release and Dean, aptly, assigns it a sex and, to his mind, it’s a “she”, it’s a female in need of release, as is Dean’s non-performing side. His feminine side, if you will. His yin to his overcompensating, toxically masculine yang.

The beginning of inner balance being found between these two is given to us by Dean launching that grenade into that cement wall in 12x22. 

And here we have a beautiful setup for exactly what that moment means for Dean Winchester. And that he is so extremely subconsciously aware of it all.

“Yes, she is.”

I mean…. seriously, Dean.

And why is it Max asking to dig his nose into Baby’s junk? Sorry, I mean trunk. (….or do I?) Because Max is a reflection of Dean throughout this entire episode. He is our Dean exposition in many many ways. And he ends up making the wrong choice for the right reasons. And I look forward to when Max and Alicia return and I wonder if Alicia will be restored. Come on, Jack. You know you can right this wrong!! :)

Thank you for asking, Nonny! And happy holidays to you!

xxx

[neven-ebrez]

So a few random things: When you talked about how the potential and the possibilities hurt more for never knowing them, it reminded me of an episode in Doctor Who, which... I don't know if you watch that show or not so to be vague just in case, there was an episode that dealt with the power of possibilities. Not super relevant, but it reminded me of it. Also, I'm running out of room so I guess this'll be multiple messages. (Sorry, especially since I'm rambling.)

(2) Next, I know you said your intent isn’t to give hope, but honestly, so far it feels like a lot of meta is being confirmed. After the first episode there were all sorts of meta about how Dean was grieving Mary but Cas even more, and then how he was mirroring John who had a tough relationship with Sam after he learned Mary died protecting him, then negative space, etc.. And then we see Dean admitting his grief regarding Cas, and then this one had Sam telling Dean he was acting like John.

(3) Then, your meta had the Cosmic Entity telling Cas there was no chance, no hope of Dean loving him. But Cas persisted. He persisted his way out of the Empty by holding onto that tiny hope even knowing that possibility. You asked people whether they’re Sam or Dean in your tags, but what about being Cas then? Neither questioning the belief there’s a chance nor bitterly fearing there isn’t, but holding onto hope for the possibility even if there’s the chance it’d be subtext?

—-

I don’t watch Doctor Who.  I tried to watch it, starting with the Ninth Doctor but it was just a little too weird for me.  I like a certain structure, mystery and meaning to be behind the things I watch and I just couldn’t understand that show!  It just kinda felt like a mess. Nothing against those who like it, of course!

As for the rest, I’m trying to be honest here in how people are approaching what I write (because I’ve experienced more backlash than most meta writers due to the nature of the exact meta I write).  I’m writing meta towards my own view and in regards to my own hopes and expectations about the show (and its efforts, which may be intentional or not but if there’s a consistent PATTERN it’s more likely that its the former) and I’m definitely not to trying to convince anyone of anything, to try and make people have hope.  I’ve been down this road before.  

I’m not sure how long you been following me (sorry!) but I’ve been in the meta community for a long ass time.  I’ve witness the golden age of meta, the fall of meta (the exodus of so many meta writers who had many diverse specialties) and the rebirth of it (among people I don’t really know).  Now, what I specialize in writing, what I call “structural meta”, deals a lot with guessing what is going to happen by examining what narrative moves the show is doing and extrapolating what therefore, must happen eventually.  Some is obvious (God had to show up once Amara’s entire drive was to confront him) and some is not.  I’ll use this as an example: my meta on Supernatural’s structure through the years, written a day before the S13 premiere.  Excerpt:

A reason to live.  

This is what Castiel needs to be given once he comes back. Not just a reason to die, but a reason to not leave Dean.  Dean telling him he’s “family”, that he’s their “brother”, that Dean simple “needs” him… none of this has worked, has been enough to get Cas to stay.  The effective elimination of “guardian” saw Cas throwing himself into another guardianship role upon the rejection of the label by Dean.  For a long time now, Supernatural structure has been crafted around the parameters which would make Dean happy, condemning all actions by characters that go against this and helping Dean eliminate the roadblocks to his own happiness.  Mary and Cas made the wrong decisions to save Dean from pain and are thus punished by the narrative for such actions.  It is here, in Dabb era, that the Winchesters are finally made to contemplate the actions of others towards their survival and they are made to suffer for it, Dean more than Sam.  

This is the clarity of structural meta.  This is exactly what Castiel faced in 13x04.  If they were going to keep him on the show, it simply had to happen.  But I didn’t know how or where it was going to happen because you can’t predict pacing. Cas has been going on mission after mission TO DIE to keep trying to make up for his debt he feels towards Dean for going on the past 6 seasons .  He has kept trying to spare Dean pain (starting in 6x20), sacrificing his own kind in the blunder (and the guilt that came with that), over and over in new and more painful ways.  All of the “Cas’ greatest failures” flashbacks with the Empty highlight this.  This… “debt that can never be repaid” got so bad in S10 that I stopped shipping Destiel in show.  S11 didn’t get better honestly (with Cas saying “yes” to Lucifer), but at least the show was showing Dean realizing all this, worrying over Cas, so I felt okay shipping it again because Dean was wanting things to be okay for Cas.  And so through S12 we continued, with Cas still trying to clean up his mess with Lucifer, even if it killed him.  Everything peaked in 12x19, with Cas spelling out how he felt he needed to bring Dean a win, and then Dean understanding this motivation (even explaining it to Sam who seemed oblivious) for all of Cas’ actions.  Dean KNOWS Cas feels this insurmountable debt and, keeps trying to spare him doing things that could hurt him.  Dean also knows this is what Cas will continue to die for and it kills him in turn, because Dean CAN’T say (isn’t to that point, emotionally) what he doesn’t know Cas wants to hear (that Dean loves him as more than a brother). We can then tell that Dean is going to feel that guilt going into dealing with Cas’ death, because even though it’s Cas’ new mission (useless, right down to a truck full of useless diapers) with the nephilim that brought Cas to his death, Dean knows it’s really his “your our family but only like a brother” that truly sealed his fate.  It’s 9 years of history together and Dean still not making Cas feel like he belongs.  It’s the show highlighting this over and over again (every ”I’ll hold him off”, GOD).

Knowing all this, I can guess where the show is going to go even before the season starts, what simply must be addressed.  And I can be right because to me there’s only one way for it TO GO because of how they’ve tied Cas’ development so intimately with Dean’s.  It’s not fortune telling.  It’s me seeing that the show has pulled out two pans, some eggs, a box of cake mix, a mixer, and that they’ve definitely started mixing everything together to bake a cake.  I can tell what KIND of cake it is by looking at the box (all the structural points), but I can’t tell you what kind of icing they are going to use.  This is the limit of structural meta.  Now as for the type of icing… I can see a certain theme being repeated, specifically, “clarification”.  It’s all over 13x01 to a most alarming degree (Jack likes “it”, he likes “nougat”.  He’s on a chair, on the floor, on the planet Earth.  He’s looking for his father, he’s looking for Castiel. There’s more but you get the picture) and this episode was penned by showrunner Andrew Dabb to set the tone of the entire season (and then this theme has carried on into every proceeding episode).  As I said before, if it wasn’t for this specific theme against how Dean telling Cas, “You’re our family.  You’re our brother. I need you.” hasn’t made him feel like he belongs in 9 years, then I wouldn’t be even discussing the possibility of Destiel getting text again.  

A lot of structural effort is being put forth here, like, a fuckton.  I don’t know what other structural meta writers (I’m not even sure who in the community would call themselves such) are saying (you say a lot of meta is being confirmed and I don’t really know what this means because meta and speculation are different and I’m a stickler for what constitutes “meta”) because I’ve been apart from the community for years now and most of the people I used to write with (collaboratively) are simply GONE.  Comparisons of Dean to John are just kinda a given imo for a variety of Dean-related discussions.  That’s not what is telling.  The theme of “clarification” (and how Dean is being slowly crafted into being able to tell Cas something specific, something that resolves Cas’ developmental journey) is what is truly telling. The discussion of negative space is also old, like season 8 old.  The show is just putting a bigger emphasis on it now, but back then, just like now, that alone doesn’t really mean anything.  Alone none of these things mean much, but together, together they personally make me believe some kind of text is coming because of the specific picture they are painting.  

So, in answer to your final part.  I’m Sam.  I believe in the hope of something, but I know from being around Dean that I might be wrong, that everything might be for nothing.  I know so many people that are Dean, people that believe all hope is lost or foolish, that text is never coming.  The thing is tho, none of us actually *can* be Cas, because in my analogy, Cas is the writers, the narrative itself.  It is fighting to leave the narrative space, to hope against hope that a chance at love exists.  No, we can’t be Cas.  I’m afraid we can only be Sam or Dean.  I’ve recently decided to unfollow some Deans and it’s nothing personal.  I understand why they feel the need to tag everything “never gonna happen”.  For my personal relationship with the show, however, I have to eliminate that sentiment once it presents itself in a certain tone.  I’m fully aware text might not ever happen.  I personally don’t need the constant reminder.  It doesn’t change my mind, only the narrative can do that (and, in fact, has changed my mind plenty of times before).

The takeaway is this: yes, my meta has a hopeful tone (and you’ll often find it “right” due to its predictive patterned nature), but no, it’s not trying to convince you what you should believe.  I’ll always be compelled to write out the show’s effort here (regarding Destiel), especially when it’s as deeply layered as it is now, but I don’t want anyone hanging onto my every word, no matter how many times I’m right and to what degree.  Nothing I write is ever going to be able to tell you definitively that Destiel is going to get text.  I can only show you why there’s a good possibility, because as of right now, I believe there is.  I, more than any other meta writer, will tell you, please follow multiple opinions (and not the same echo chamber) if you truly care about using other opinions to decide your own hope for the possibility of text.  I’ve been here a long time and I’ve been on both sides of the discussion.  I’ve been hated for both and loved for both.  I’m not interested in anyone thinking I’m right about everything or that meta (especially my kind of meta) can somehow tell them the future.  The show can, and has, gone against its structure many times before.  And above all, Supernatural comes from a time when queer subtextual stories were perfectly fine to never get text.  It’s an old show.  It’s best never to forget that.