#new 52 roy is also the retcon that i hate most but i feel like i talk about that all the time | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

stxleslyds · 3 years ago

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Yo what is or isn't important in a character's history is both subjective and up to time. And there are Roy fans who enjoy elements of the run. The depiction is both popular enough and well known both in a love it and hate it way that it has shown up in other media like TeenTitansGo. It is all over tumblr tiktok twitter. Like do you think people who dress up as Roy aren't Roy fans just because it is a version of Roy you dislike. Way to gatekeep.

Hey there Anon.

“what is or isn't important in a character's history is both subjective”

So, you understand that @rcyharper making a reading guide for Roy that doesn’t include the New 52 runs and other stuff that they don’t particularly like is valid? Because like you said, the importance of some events is subjective and they seem to not think it is important enough to be there, and I just simply agreed. I dislike Roy’s character in New 52 but most of all I really don’t believe those events are important to know or understand Roy.

“The depiction is both popular enough and well known” and “It is all over tumblr tiktok twitter”

If they are well known runs and the character of “Roy” is recognised through those books, why is so incredibly necessary for them to appear on a guide from someone on tumblr? People have the knowledge of its existence and have apparently read it, so there should be no need for it to be mentioned in a guide if you already know about it. Maybe the people who like and know of New 52 Roy find that guide and find some other books that might interest them.

“Like do you think people who dress up as Roy aren't Roy fans just because it is a version of Roy you dislike. Way to gatekeep.”

I never said that. You did just now. I never mentioned people cosplaying or anything, I was talking about people attacking someone over not putting an era that they deem “not important” in their very own guide. @rcyharper didn’t have to make a guide, they just did it and it is helpful and beautifully made.

We are not gatekeeping Roy by saying that the guide is okay without the New 52 included, we are just agreeing with them over it not mattering. If it matters to you or any others that really want to see the New 52 runs mentioned then you can do it yourself.

The guide, rcyharper and I are not gatekeeping, we are just talking about the things that we don’t like, in this case New 52’s version of Roy Harper, Lobdell’s terrible writing and the character assassination that he put two old and beloved characters through just to lift up his very own version of Jason Todd. That’s the way we see it and that’s all there is to it.

“Doesn't moving on mean accepting the past and acknowledging that it impacted people differently.”

I suppose this is in relation to me saying that “New 52 RHatO fans need to realise that the run they like so much isn't relevant for anyone except for Jason. Jason has barely mentioned Roy in this new DC era, so it is time to move on.”, if it is, when I said moving on, I mean it from filling someone’s inbox because you don’t agree with their reading guide. There was no need for people to come so hard over a guide that was made by someone that likes a character an wants more people to get to know the character that they enjoy.

And while I do agree that characters and characterizations impact people differently, I also feel like most people don’t realise how much harm was done to Roy’s character and for nothing. From a narrative point of view there was no need (or reason) for Roy to have his addiction, family interactions and friends retconned away.

Everything that made Roy was taken away from him so he could be a second to a practically new character. Roy was nerfed in every sense, he was aged down (seemingly), dumbed down, and they took most of his expertise away.

In RHatO vol.1 Roy looked like he had been on the job for two years and that Jason was better than him at team work and all that. How is that fair for a character like Roy who has been in comics since 1941 and that has had fans of his Arsenal persona ever since 1993.

New 52 RHatO’s Arsenal was not the Roy that people were fans of. You like that depiction of him, amazing! But some people don’t and they have valid criticisms of the new characterization because they believe that it actually hurts Roy’s character and the progress he had made as a character. Roy used to be in the Justice League and he led the Titans and Outsiders, but in New 52 he was a random ass dude that didn’t know what to do if Jason Todd (who was first introduced as Red Hood in 2005) didn’t hold his hand. At the time Jason was new to the “leader” role and he was not a team player either.

“That some people like a thing and will as a result spread it or want new interpretations of it.”

Yes, some people want characters to forever be ever-changing, some others want their favourite characters to go back to being the established characters that they were and then build from there. And that view from things is also valid.

Anon, you are trying to protect the view of the readers that enjoy New 52 Roy but pre-New 52 Roy fans also want to enjoy the character and share it where anyone that is interested in that interpretation of the character. One thing isn’t above the other, and we, as the fandom, can co-exist. What is hard, is to make one of the two versions of Roy stay in comics’ canon. So far Jason is a mix of his pre-New 52 self and his Rebirth self, because people tend to forget that New 52’s Roy was retconned a second time within that era due to Titans Hunt. There Roy and the others found out that time was stolen from them and that they had been a team.

So New 52 Roy as he was in RHatO will be hard to find in “Infinite Frontier”. The Roy that had no friends before Jason, who didn’t know Kory before New 52, who hated Dick Grayson for no reason at all, who didn’t know Donna or Jade, he doesn’t exist anymore. He was retconned away already. And now in this Infinite Frontier era, that is just a continuation of Rebirth, Roy remembers and acknowledges his life before Titans Hunt and New 52 altogether.

So, Roy is set on a different path, yes. But some of his oldest fans are seeing the Roy that they liked back, the Roy who was a Titan, a leader, an excellent hero and (most importantly) a father, back and they are enjoying themselves.

“Or just being able to talk about it instead of acting like it doesn't exist.”

Hmm, I guess here we will have to agree to disagree. I will pretend something doesn’t exist if I don’t like it. I am a Jason Todd/Red Hood stan but “Battle for the Cowl” and “Batman and Robin” (vol.1) didn’t happen and I will die on that hill.

Also, many RHatO fans act like Roy didn’t exist before that run so, if they can think that way and build a Roy from there, then, pre-New 52 Roy fans can avoid talking about New 52 in its entirety and there should be no problem.

We like what we like, and while I can be respectful of other’s opinions, in my blog I talk about whatever I want. You can ask me however many things you want about New 52 RHatO and I will answer them (I have read that run too many times) but I will always have a little edge there because I am not a fan of the run, the writer(s), the stories or the characterizations.

“Lots of characters have bad runs and bad stories and people can still acknowledge their presence in the character's history.”

That is true. But just like you can acknowledge them you can also avoid them. The point here is to enjoy the characters, so if you come to me and another Jason Todd fan and you ask for a guide or a list of our favourite books, we will surely recommend different stuff. After you get all that, you yourself will choose what to read and what characterizations you like the most. And that will be just as valid as whatever I think.

We don’t want to make a divide between Roy fans, the de divide is already there, just like in any fandom but you can’t suggest that we are gatekeeping Roy because someone made a guide that didn’t include a “popular” run and I happened to agree with it.

We just don’t like RHatO, in my case, I hate it. I hate it for both Jason and Roy (and Kory).

#roy harper #new52 rhato #asksss #rhato

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cosmicheromp3 · 5 years ago

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let’s talk about snowbirds don’t fly for a second, shall we: the arc where roy’s addiction was first introduced, and how it actually affected the relationship between roy and ollie.

people’s perception of snowbirds don’t fly and the events surrounding it is so... weird, to the point where it often makes me wonder whether they’ve actually read the comic (and roy’s appearances right after, but i realize those might be less known) or whether they’re just going off a few very specific panels and inaccurate recounts – usually from people that will twist anything in their favour to call ollie a bad guy.

because, if you pieced together what most people seem to think happened – and this is what i was expecting to find once i decided to read it myself –, in snowbirds we should see: roy, not yet an adult and still under the active care of ollie, starts using drugs, and oliver’s so caught up in himself and negligent that he doesn’t notice what’s happening. when he finally finds out, he lashes out, hits roy and kicks him out of the house, leaving roy without a home. this makes their relationship crumble, and roy starts hating ollie because of it. they don’t speak to each other, and leave in awful terms.

and... in many aspects, that’s so far from the events you'll see if you actually go read green lantern #85 (snowbirds don’t fly) and #86 (they say it’ll kill me... but then won’t say when!). i’m assuming a lot of misconceptions happen because of a) writers with a grudge against ollie who retroactively, and unfairly, painted him in a bad light, and people took this at face value, and b) retcons that came with the new 52 reboot – but, i'll be honest, i don’t care enough to go read that mess even for this post. in general, i’m pretty sure we all agree that we ignore out of character comics; let’s not make roy and ollie the exception to that, yeah?

first i want to get something out of the way, that i feel like i need to mention even though there’s probably people that have talked about it better than i could. when we analyze this comic we should keep in mind that the characters in the story were meant to fill specific roles for the sort of... PSA comic that dc was trying to make, and in the 70s, at that. considering this, both roy and ollie are plot devices.

the creative team behind the story (o’neil and adams) have said that they chose roy to be the average “good” teen who fell into drugs – as a way to say “this could happen to anyone, even to this reputable superhero”. ollie was the caring but imperfect parent who missed the signs – not abusive but distant at the moment, he was meant to be more like a nudge to parents to pay closer attention. it was written to play as a sort of “this could happen to the best of us” situation. and in that context, ollie is made to react in a way that is at most "not ideal" for the standards of its time: he hits roy, and denies to himself that roy’s addiction is a real problem that needs to be dealt with delicately. this is used to send the message of “don’t react like this”.

that isn’t exactly the point of this post, and i don’t want to downplay the harm ollie did with his reaction or absolve him of any blame. the point of this post is: people seem to think that’s where the storyline ended, that was ollie’s final reaction, and those are the terms in which ollie and roy parted; which is just not true.

instead, ollie hitting roy happens in the very first page of green lantern #86 – we have an entire issue in which ollie is faced with his initial reaction and made to confront his mistake (which is more than we can say for, um, other father superheroes that have hit their children. i won’t name names.) the only moment you could read as him “kicking roy out” – which is the phrasing i’ve seen applied to this – happens the very next page, where ollie tells roy to “get out”.

the thing is, roy was not living with ollie at the moment. there was nowhere that ollie could kick him out from. “get out” means just that: get out of this room (and ollie didn’t intend anything more than that with his words.) the comic makes a point of stressing that roy is, by that point, independent, and old enough to be living without a guardian.

ollie, right after roy leaves, thinks: “but he shouldn’t need attention–at his age”. ollie is in the wrong here because of his close-minded view of addiction and because he’s not considering that, though a legal adult, roy is still young and needs care, but it still shows that roy was largely on his own by then. ollie’s reaction is definitively negative and a rejection, but can’t in any way be seen as “kicking roy out”, because it isn’t. (note, also, how ollie’s first thought is that he failed roy, but his denial and stubbornness get in the way and he shifts the blame. he’ll eventually have to get over this and change.)

we see that ollie plays the role of the father that reacts poorly, and he is directly contrasted with the adults who do take responsibility for roy – hal at first, and dinah after, are the ones who play the role of “this is how you should react.”

hal finds roy without knowing what happened between him and ollie, and his first reaction is to take roy to a doctor; he immediately recognizes that what roy needs is help – and will later say so to ollie. when roy refuses, saying he wants to kick the addiction on his own – to prove himself to ollie, because even though he doesn’t think ollie was right he still values his opinion and their relationship, but i’d say there’s something he’s trying to prove to himself, too –, hal recognizes that he doesn’t know anything about drug withdrawal or addiction, and he’s receptive to roy, asking him questions and listening without judgement.

so he takes roy to dinah, who is the one that (very kindly, might i add, because dinah and roy weren’t that close at the time) cares for roy while he goes cold turkey. roy, possibly rather unrealistically, though i’m no expert, kicks the addiction in the span of a few pages. before the ending of this arc, roy has already gone clean.

there’s a one week timeskip there, where we assume that out of the characters featured in this story, roy only interacts with dinah, and ollie’s been with hal. then, before the conclusion of this story, roy is given a place to confront ollie and call him out for his mistakes. roy calls him out for turning his back on him, and he gets to tell him – and show him, punching him in a scene where it’s implied that ollie completely deserves it, unlike the opposite situation that this issue started with – about the pain he’s been in. we are given, in text, a moment where roy can express to ollie what he’s been going through, what he did wrong, and how it affected him.

(this is a moment where the intentions of the comic are very clear, not only because roy practically turns to the camera to deliver the PSA, but also because of the wording: roy told ollie that he turned his back on him, and in the same page he talks about society turning its back on drug addicts, same wording twice. ollie and roy are both meant to represent something other than just themselves, even if this happened in continuity and ended up affecting their characters in the long run.)

and ollie – unlike in that first page, now ollie is shown to listen and understand. he’s not in the same place or mindset he was in when everything started. in the beginning, ollie thought that there must be something inherently bad about a person who does drugs, in a reflection of society’s – and parents’ – views of the issue. and that shows in his initial denial and reaction: ‘how could my son, who’s a good person, do this?’ then, in this scene, when roy tells him he beat the addiction, he answers “good boy” – roy immediately rejects this notion, and emphasizes that there’s more to it than his own goodness: what’s important is the help he received, namely from hal and dinah, and a caring environment. ollie, at the very least, begins to understand this, and in doing so understands very clearly what he needs to change about their relationship if he wants roy back.

this means that ollie starts undergoing character development in this one issue alone. the thing about ollie, in regards to his relationship with roy, is that he has made mistakes and the narrative acknowledges it; but, when well written, he realizes and admits it, making a point of learning from his mistakes. roy knows that ollie has fucked up, too, and doesn’t let him off the hook for it, but he also recognizes that he makes an effort to be better. especially after snowbirds, this informs their relationship a lot.

by the end of the issue they’re not hugging, and roy is leaving on his own, but that’s completely of his own accord. and these are the last panels in the entire issue:

the whole original comic, but mostly these panels specifically, is what makes me wonder about people’s perception of these events, and the misconceptions i previously mentioned – because i really am confused as to how you could reconcile these two opposite readings. unless, you know... people are speaking without ever touching the original comic. (i don’t want to blame anyone for not reading older comics, but please, if you’re gonna speak, especially if it’s to shit on a character or call them abusive the way people do with ollie, do it in an informed way.)

so, right after the events of snowbirds, because roy was allowed to speak up and ollie was made to listen, at least as much as can be expected through his stubbornness, they’re in much better terms than people usually think. if you look at roy’s chronology, he interacts with ollie in his next few appearances (barring the teen titans ones), teaming up as they normally would, with the one difference being the emphasis that’s put into the fact that roy has grown away from ollie – in the same way as any young adult would grow away from a parent. there’s also roy’s resentment for ollie’s actions, but this resentment is portrayed as deserved and it doesn’t turn their interactions into something negative. it’s still clear that they both care for each other, and there’s certainly no hate.

[from action comics #436/2]

this first one takes place a few months after roy goes his own way. roy is in the middle of working a case when ollie gets involved, and they work on it together. green lantern #100/2 is their next appearance and has a similar plot, this time with dinah working with them as well. in both of these, they still work well together, are able to communicate in action and have each other’s backs.

in the action comics issue, ollie insists that roy is still welcome by his side, and that he should still feel free to ask for help whenever he needs it. roy refuses in the way that’s shown in the panels above – saying that he needs to “be a loner for a while” and build a life of his own (though it’s not an exact parallel, because ollie is ollie and takes “loner” to a whole other level, the wording here reminds me of the way ollie tends to leave on his own whenever he feels like he needs to find himself). you’ll see that these interactions aren’t hostile at all – quite the opposite.

world’s finest #251/3 might be the one where their interactions are the most tense, and that’s mostly just in the end. when they’re done with the usual superhero team-up, ollie shows willingness to talk to roy:

“i can’t help out. roy’s back, and, well– we’ve got a lot of talking to do.” through these issues, we realize that ollie has learned: his previous mistake was not paying enough attention to roy, and not showing him that he could always count on ollie (both in noticing roy’s addiction, but also before, in not taking enough care so roy wouldn’t get to that point). he tries to make up for it every chance he has, but it’s always on roy’s terms. everyone is aware that ollie is the one who was in the wrong, and it’s up to roy to forgive him or not, but no one ever pressures roy to do so. when roy doesn’t want to stay and talk, ollie accepts it.

ollie atones again and again, and their relationship isn’t magically fixed and they don’t go back to being close without effort – effort which rightfully has to be done, again, mostly on ollie’s part. but they never, ever go so far as to hate each other.

then, in green arrow (1988) #75, ollie feels so bad about what happened between them, about the way he screwed up, he essentially says to roy that he wouldn’t fault him for wanting to shoot him. “so go ahead. god knows, you’ve got plenty of reason.” roy has been brainwashed here; he breaks through it because of ollie’s words.

and, after this whole ordeal is done, this is how they part ways:

by this point, roy already has lian and a life of his own. he’s gone back to being speedy and then arsenal, he’s in the titans again and he will become a renowned hero in his own right. he might have forgiven ollie a long time ago, but now that he has found himself – like he set off to do at first – he seems more prepared to make amends and see where he stands with him (maybe i’m attributing more consistency among these issues, that happen years apart, than we should actually give them credit for, but i can’t help trying to find the common themes.)

after these, which are the most immediate interactions after snowbirds, we have multiple instances of them being close again. it’s in every small moment they have together, really, but off the top of my head, a couple that are illustrative for their relationship are green arrow: the archer’s quest and justice league of america (2006) #7, even though they don’t directly interact in this last one. i was gonna include panels from both, but this is getting long enough; i urge you to read them, especially if you followed along reading the issues i’ve mentioned, because they’re great. what i am gonna include, cause it’s amazing, is this panel from justice league of america wedding special.

in my opinion, these misconceptions around ollie and roy not only are a disservice to their characters but also mean that people are missing out on what i think is a really interesting relationship. it’s almost rare to see a relationship evolve in a way that feels so organic in comics, not only because the interpersonal conflict here is shown to have real, tangible consequences but also because the characters are allowed to grow in a way that is gradual and natural and even satisfying.

ollie and roy's relationship might have never been the exact same after snowbirds – but which father-son relationship stays the same after the son grows up? and i think it's a testament to the strength of their bond that without ever ignoring these events (because, as i’ve shown, they’re very much acknowledged again and again) they not only never stop loving each other, but are also able to keep building something meaningful going forward.

#roy harper #ollie queen #green arrow #dc #dc meta #drug mention //#long post //#i was gonna put this under a read more but u know what. i'm not gonna give u the option to scroll past this. you are forced to read it #not really but u know hgsdhghsj #you'll notice how many times they call each other dad/son in these panels and that wasn't even intentional #not to keep comparing this to u know who but u know who could never

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f4liveblogarchives · 5 years ago

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Fantastic Four Vol. 1 Annual 1976

Special thanks to @maxwellelvis for taking most of this one off my hands!

Mon Aug 12 2019 [09:46 PM] maxwellelvis: Okay. This is that Event I told you about. [09:46 PM] Wack'd: You tell me about a lot of Events [09:48 PM] Wack'd: Man it's weird that the Fantastic Four have a Danger Room [09:48 PM] Aleph Null: yes but you can't fuck this one [09:48 PM] Wack'd: If this were the 80s and 90s when suddenly the X-Men were the next big thing and people were bending over backwards to make the Fantastic Four fit that mold, sure [09:48 PM] Wack'd: Here in the 70s it's just weird [09:49 PM] Wack'd: God this is such a mom joke

[09:50 PM] Wack'd: A running gag that's gone unacknowledged as of late is Ben interrupting Reed before he can finish his technobabble

[09:51 PM] Wack'd: It's always hard to know spur of the moment what's worth pointing out and what isn't, until suddenly you realize that a pattern has been continuing for like six issues and you haven't said anything [09:51 PM] Umbramatic: rip [09:52 PM] Wack'd: Reed didn't you build a robot to fix things for this express purpose?

[09:52 PM] Wack'd: You did, way back in #119! [09:53 PM] Wack'd: Roy Thomas remembers 1962 better than he remembers his own damn issues

[09:54 PM] Wack'd: "Wait a minute! You guys are Nazis!"

[09:55 PM] Umbramatic: KILL THE NAZIS KILL THE NAZIS [09:55 PM] maxwellelvis: *Venture Bros music* [09:56 PM] Wack'd: I don't think you are going to be embarrassed. Not because these guys are Nazis but because beating up Nazi cosplayers is still a good thing to do

[09:57 PM] Wack'd:

Sue: Why are these men still fighting World War II more than three decades after it ended? Johnny: You might as well ask the Late Late Show the same thing, Sue.

[09:57 PM] Wack'd: Johnny confirmed for a big fan of Irish television [09:58 PM] Umbramatic: pffft [09:59 PM] maxwellelvis: I've got my 2-in-1 TPB with me so I can read this along with you. [09:59 PM] Wack'd: AND NOW THE RESOLUTION OF A PLOTHOLE THAT HAS BEEN BOTHERING PEOPLE FOR YEARS [10:00 PM] Wack'd: Yes, Doom did take his time machine back. Reed just copied the blueprints first and then made a new one [10:00 PM] Wack'd: Problem solved [10:00 PM] Umbramatic: oh my [10:01 PM] Wack'd: Anyway, Reed is started to learn that the Nazis came from 1946 London. Willing to bet this is something to do with the vibranium that fell in there [10:01 PM] maxwellelvis: You skipped over the part where, when Reed and Sue first start puzzling out how the heck these guys got here, the next page shows Ben just WAILING on one of the troops and yelling at him for making his friends all upset. [10:02 PM] Wack'd: I skip over a lot of things if they insufficiently amuse me or aren't relevant to any particular narrative [10:02 PM] maxwellelvis: "Now see whatcha gone an' done, Otto? You got my ol' buddy here upset an' I ain't even hit ya yet." [10:02 PM] maxwellelvis: I know, but I just found that amusing. [10:04 PM] Wack'd: So the Watcher shows up but is doing his damndest not to interfere after having been put on trial over in Captain Marvel [10:05 PM] Wack'd: *siiiiiigh* Okay, guess we're doin' this

[10:05 PM] Wack'd: I hate "what if the Nazis won" stories that don't account for the historical reality that these guys were kind of dipshits [10:05 PM] Wack'd: I hate them so much [10:05 PM] Wack'd: THEY DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO CONQUER THE UNITED STATES [10:06 PM] maxwellelvis: Yeah, but these are comic book Nazis, remember that. [10:06 PM] Aleph Null: not now max [10:06 PM] maxwellelvis: Shutting up [10:07 PM] Umbramatic: oh great the one way you could make Cleveland worse [10:07 PM] Wack'd: Thomas knows juuuuuuust enough history to irritate me

[10:07 PM] Aleph Null: LMAO [10:07 PM] Larena: People like to pretend the Nazis were these tactical geniuses but they really fucking weren't [10:09 PM] Wack'd: Seriously Thomas knows the Lee/Kirby lore better than he knows his own

[10:09 PM] Umbramatic: heck [10:09 PM] Wack'd: Also, all the long-range missiles in the world aren't going to change their lack of tactical proficiency, or Ally advantages, or the fact that the ground war was going poorly... [10:10 PM] Wack'd: Whatever, the longer I complain about this the longer this issue lasts [10:10 PM] Wack'd: Watcher, satisfied Reed has cracked this, vanishes, and the Four head off into the past [10:12 PM] maxwellelvis: Smack-dab in the middle of a strategy planning session being overseen by THE INVADERS in London HQ. They're planning a raid of Castle Wolfenstein--sorry, Castle Cherbelle. [10:12 PM] Umbramatic: lel [10:13 PM] Wack'd: Hey Max? I know you're enjoying having the issue on hand but if I have to wait for you to say things it's gonna drag this out and, as mentioned, I'm not super into this one [10:13 PM] maxwellelvis: Sorry [10:13 PM] Wack'd: Anyway yeah, what he said

[10:14 PM] Wack'd: ...actually...do you wanna do this issue for me? And I'll just put relevant images where needed [10:14 PM] maxwellelvis: Sure. [10:14 PM] Wack'd: Thanks! [10:14 PM] maxwellelvis: So the inevitable fight happens. [10:14 PM] maxwellelvis: Some things of note: [10:14 PM] maxwellelvis: Namor is a hotheaded dick no matter what decade it is [10:14 PM] Wack'd:

[10:15 PM] maxwellelvis: Powerless or no, I feel like Namor calling Ben a Nazi would result in him being ripped limb from limb [10:15 PM] Wack'd: Hint that Ben is Jewish #354

[10:15 PM] maxwellelvis: Johnny is rather awestruck to see the Original Human Torch and Toro, and just barely manages to parry their last volley of fireballs [10:16 PM] maxwellelvis: Bucky is useless as always [10:16 PM] maxwellelvis: and Cap almost immediately realizes that the smart thing to do is to break up this little ballroom blitz. [10:16 PM] Wack'd: THE WINTER SOLDIER EVERYONE

[10:17 PM] maxwellelvis: Reed does the same, dousing the Torches and getting everyone to cool off. [10:18 PM] maxwellelvis: So the FF explain who, what, where, when, and why, a French Resistance liaison confirms that something rotten is up in Castle Cherelle, especially that the operation there is being overseen by one Baron Heinrich Zemo. [10:19 PM] Wack'd: ...was this really their catchphrase

[10:19 PM] maxwellelvis: Probably? [10:19 PM] Wack'd: Hehehehe [10:19 PM] Wack'd: What dorks [10:19 PM] maxwellelvis: I've not read much Invaders, but it seems like they're trying to channel the spirit of the All-Winners Squadron [10:20 PM] Wack'd: Every comic book website ever uses it as a headline when there's Invaders news [10:21 PM] maxwellelvis: So, they make it as far as France in one of Namor's airships, but are ambushed by Stukas. Toro is even more hotheaded than Johnny and wants to go out and flash-fry them, but Hammond tells him to stand down, they can't afford to give away their position to Zemo before they even reach the castle. [10:21 PM] Wack'd: This is even dorky or when you consider that the Invaders are an invention of the mid-century war comics scene [10:21 PM] Wack'd: And not a team that ever actually existed in the 40s [10:21 PM] maxwellelvis: Well, the All-Winners Squadron I think was a thing, not sure if they ever all teamed up though. It might have been before the JSA. [10:22 PM] Wack'd: Oh! Yep [10:22 PM] Umbramatic: oh huh [10:22 PM] Wack'd: Line-up did have Cap, Bucky, Namor, Toro, and Human Torch back in the 40s [10:23 PM] maxwellelvis: Just before the reach the castle, we get a shot of the Watcher's face in the clouds, indicating that yeah, they're on the right path. Bucky gets creeped out by it. Ben just feels even more nervous now. [10:23 PM] Wack'd: The name "Invaders" is a flagrant retcon though, as is the absence of Whizzer, Miss America, Blond Phantom, and Angel [10:23 PM] maxwellelvis: Miss America is elsewhere now. More on that later. [10:24 PM] maxwellelvis: Anyways, they land mostly undetected, have time for a character bit or two, and split up to cover more ground [10:24 PM] Wack'd: Well hang on! [10:24 PM] Wack'd: Don't gloss over character bits! Love character bits! [10:24 PM] maxwellelvis: Ahh [10:25 PM] Wack'd: Oh this is just exposition [10:25 PM] Wack'd: Moving on [10:25 PM] maxwellelvis: Reed realizes that while they're here, he and Ben are also just now signing up and gets goosebumps, which is rare for him. [10:25 PM] maxwellelvis: Namor professes his hatred of stealth tactics, showing yet again why he will be a Good King [10:26 PM] Wack'd: (So long as I'm tracking when the sliding timescale kicks in, the fact that Reed and Ben are still WWII vets is probably worth noting) [10:26 PM] maxwellelvis: Speaking of which, Reed also gets weirded out at teaming up with a younger Namor and scolds himself for playing Jealous Husband [10:26 PM] Wack'd: And Sue is apparently still a bit hot under the collar [10:27 PM] Wack'd: viagra joke

[10:27 PM] maxwellelvis: I can't blame her here. Dude just refuses to age. How DARE he be so good looking for so many decades? [10:27 PM] Wack'd: The Face of Beauty

[10:28 PM] maxwellelvis: The Torches all team up and it's... interesting at least in black and white to see how the pencils and inks try to make three guys with the same power all look distinct. [10:28 PM] Aleph Null: sue was a star trek fan and really liked spock [10:28 PM] Aleph Null: that's what i'm going with [10:28 PM] Wack'd: Historically what happens here [10:28 PM] maxwellelvis: How does it look in color, Wack'd? [10:29 PM] Wack'd: Is that Johnny is stuck with the all-red-with-stripes look, while Jim looks like actual flames are coming off him--in accordance with how he was drawn in the 40s [10:30 PM] maxwellelvis: And Toro has that look even moreso, at least here. [10:30 PM] Wack'd: I'm going to be completely honest, in this issue, I can't tell any of the three apart [10:30 PM] maxwellelvis: So Namor and the Richards' bust up a weapons plant. [10:30 PM] Wack'd: It's all down to dialogue quirks [10:31 PM] maxwellelvis: He floods the place in his temper. [10:31 PM] maxwellelvis: Skipping over that because the NEXT part is fun. [10:31 PM] maxwellelvis: We get to revisit the events that lead up to Cap getting frozen and Bucky's "death" [10:32 PM] maxwellelvis: Johnny's turn to get the willies as he realizes who these two guys are and what's going to happen to them, things he can't try to prevent or risk more damage to spacetime [10:34 PM] maxwellelvis: So they bust up central ops, then Cap has a confrontation with Zemo. The shield shatters the tank full of Adhesive X, trapping Zemo in his hood for the rest of his days, though in this retelling, Cap actually tries to help Zemo, who refuses and says that not only can nothing get it off him, but he'd rather die than surrender, or better yet, he'll just kill Cap. [10:35 PM] maxwellelvis: Zemo escapes down a tunnel and though Johnny CAN keep up with him, he simultaneously CAN'T because he has no way of knowing if the escape tunnel is booby-trapped and so he loses Zemo in his hesitation. [10:35 PM] maxwellelvis: Meanwhile, Ben and the other Torches take out the V2 bay. [10:36 PM] Wack'd: Yeah they're really going all in on the 60s look for all the Torches here [10:36 PM] maxwellelvis: One of the missiles gets fired, with Ben on it. Jim and Toro can't keep up, but Ben manages to sabotage the missile in midair and steer it back to the castle and pull a Slim Pickens. [10:37 PM] Wack'd: Just a little scruff of hair on the top to tell them apart

[10:37 PM] maxwellelvis: Which is weird because you wouldn't suspect that from just the lineart [10:37 PM] maxwellelvis: which is what I have. [10:37 PM] Wack'd:

[10:38 PM] maxwellelvis: "I thought I died an' went ta Heaven, but then how come I'm lookin' at YOUR ugly kisser, Stretcho?" They managed to get out in time and save Ben from scattering himself all over France. [10:39 PM] maxwellelvis: And assuming that no Vibranium survived the explosion, all is well that ends well. [10:39 PM] maxwellelvis: Well... [10:39 PM] Umbramatic: something something dr strangelove [10:39 PM] maxwellelvis: except Uatu is still in the Baxter Building [10:39 PM] Wack'd:

[10:40 PM] maxwellelvis: Ben realizes that, if the Watcher is still here, that means, that not all of the Vibranium was in the castle. Uatu says nothing, but subtly smiles, leading us in to Marvel Two-In-One Annual One [10:41 PM] Bocaj: Dammit Uatu [10:41 PM] Bocaj: And also the Watchers [10:41 PM] Bocaj: Just your presence is interfering [11:01 PM] maxwellelvis: Okay so, on to part 2 of this story: [11:01 PM] maxwellelvis: MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE ANNUAL #1 [11:03 PM] maxwellelvis: I'll just get the highlights out of the way. [11:04 PM] maxwellelvis: Whizzer. U-Man. Giant flying swastika. There's a guy called The Thin Man. Whizzer. The original Patriot. Ben throws himself off a flag pole. Roy Thomas shamelessly inserts himself into the story. Whizzer. [11:05 PM] maxwellelvis: Also there's a superhero called Blue Diamond. For some reason I thought that's funny in 2019.

#1976 #Roy Thomas #John Buscema #The Main Book

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