#nazism for ts

[edwardteachs]

WHAT when did the ts picture with a swastika happen? (/genuine, would just like to the know source cause I also despise her)

so it happened in 2009 and while yes that is a long time ago, I feel like nazism wasn't exactly accepted in 2009. like i feel like she shouldve known? ts has always flirted with white supremacy and I feel like no one talks about it

[alexesguerra]

Necronomicon Spellbook Necronomicon Spellbook Mass Market Paperback – October 1, 1998 by Simon (Editor) --Brand New Copies-- The mighty powers invoked by this eldritch tome are really long-forgotten psychic abilities, able to affect the most basic needs and desires, including Love, Wealth, Peace of Mind, and Protection Agains Enemies. But now comes a guide that enables anyone to pick up the book and use its ineluctable power "without fear or risk" according to editor Simon. About the Author Simon is a student of magic, occultism, and religion since the mid-1960s and the editor of the Necronomicon, Simon was a frequent lecturer for the famed Warlock Shop in Brooklyn and the Magickal Childe Bookstore in Manhattan for more than ten years before his sudden disappearance in 1984, speaking on topics as diverse as religion and politics, occultism and fascism, ceremonial magic, demonolatry, the Tarot, the Qabala, and Asian occult systems. He also conducted private classes for the New York City OTO during this period, with a focus on Enochian magic, "Owandering bishops," and Afro-Caribbean occult beliefs. An ordained priest of an Eastern Orthodox church, Simon has appeared on television and radio discussing such topics as exorcism, satanism, and Nazism. The media events he organized in the 1970s and 1980s -- with rock bands, ritual performances, and celebrity appearances -- helped to promote the "occult renaissance" in New York City. After decades of study in European, Asian, and Latin American cult centers, this book marks his first public appearance in more than twenty years. Product details Mass Market Paperback: 123 pages Publisher: Avon; 1ST edition (October 1998) Language: English ISBN-10: 0380731126 ISBN-13: 978-0380731121 Product Dimensions: 4.2 x 0.3 x 6.8 inches Shipping Weight: 0.3 ounces

[jamesfleamont]

Can’t a show about killing and hunting nazis just be about killing and hunting nazis l? Must there be twist endings?

[janiedean]

ah well, enough’s enough.

so, I noticed that tumblr used @gamoralives who of course has preventively blocked me is going around publishing SCREENCAPS of my replies to that op about the holocaust but not of my actual replies because of course not and I was trying to reblog it from @galactic-jewce-box who in turn was reblogging it from @jewish-privilege but ALL THREE OF THEM HAVE BLOCKED ME OF COURSE SINCE I CANNOT TAG THEM, from which we can ABSOLUTELY NOTICE how strong is their spine since they can’t even talk to me properly.

okay then, I know that this post is not gonna get screencapped as a whole but since y’all are a bunch of immature assholes who think they can get away with slandering people behind their backs, spread misinformation and be honestly disgusting people because first they accuse ME of holocaust denial and then

 deny that categories other than jewish and roma people have died in it

completely ignore that queer people died in it

ignore that disabled died in it

ignore that the pacific front had another genocide going on that had equal if not higher numbers of dead people

have suddenly decided that wwii and the holocaust are two separated things when before they weren’t

spread misinformation about auschwitz works

complain about polish ppl not fighting the nazis enough and then literally spit on the ones who did by going like IF A HANDFUL OF POLISH GENTILES DIED IT DOESN’T MATTER guess what you completely fucking asshole those people were political prisoners and I have absolutely no qualms calling you an asshole by this point so they died to fight the nazis but I guess that’s not good enough for YOU ALL FUCKING AMERICANS WHO HAVEN’T EVER SET A FOOT IN EUROPE HAVE YOU

I’m going at it. bye.

so, what my pals had to say about me.

THIS is what gamoralives screenshotted:

of course, she didn’t, like, LINK TO EITHER OF MY OPS, one and two in which I said a lot of things, INCLUDING:

like no one is denying that jewish people were the the most targeted category and no one is even dreaming of it and no one is denying that everyone had responsibilities in the jewish ethnic cleansing but the ‘blame the polish at all costs’ mentality I’m seeing in some comments on this post is honestly baffling and not really what brings us to a constructive discussion on the topic.

but of course y’all could not, like, directly engage with me on my op. nooooo. YOU SCREENSHOTTED THE REPLIES TO MY OP BY PEOPLE WHO WERE AGREEING WITH ME AND THEN GO AROUND SAYING I’M ANTISEMITE. GOD YOU’RE FUCKING COWARDS.

but never mind that.

so, what else does my pal, my friend gamoralives (WHO NEVER ONCE TOUCHED THE TOPIC DIRECTLY WITH ME lmao) have to say about me?

OOOOH, IT DISGUSTS YOU?

let’s see what disgusts me instead.

this is one of the OPs that got the screenshot from the OP of that post which we all know was yours like shut up don’t even try to deny it is:

that’s what some pal of yours had to say:

THEN YOU GO AND SAY THIS:

like YOU GODDAMNED IDIOTS YOU REALLY THINK Y’ALL CAN SPIN THIS AGREEING WITH ‘HOLOCAUST AND THE WWII BELONG TO ONE GROUP ONLY’ AND THEN YOU DO A 180° AND SAY THAT WWII AND THE HOLOCAUST ARE TWO SEPARATED THINGS????????????

LIKE???????

ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS????

YOU SAID THAT WWII ***AND*** THE HOLOCAUST ARE PROPERTY OF JUST JEWISH PEOPLE AND ROMANI AND THEN YOU GO AND CLAIM THAT WWII IS NOT THE HOLOCAUST?

LIKE??????

but it’s not even the worst because honestly I still have fucking vomit in my mouth from this:

and then you do this:

YOU GODDAMNED - I DON’T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO CALL YOU, I HONESTLY HAVE EXHAUSTED THE WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, BUT SINCE YOU’RE SO EXPERT IN ANYTHING WWII, PLEASE LET ME FUCKING C/P YOU A THING YOU CAN FIND ON THE FUCKING AUSCHWITZ WEBSITE MUSEUM PAGE which you’d know if you actually set foot in there (spoilers: my antisemite ass did and I actually went to krakow 40% for the rest and 60% because I’ve been wanting to visit since I was fucking eight because I started reading up about concentration camps and studying wwii when I was in elementary school because I was interested and I never stopped, differently from you who most likely only learned how to *research* now by c/p-ing together information that doesn’t count the other side but oKAY THEN):

Gas chamber I

Auschwitz I, Crematorium I and the first gas chamber

This object is preserved in an original state to a large degree. Crematorium I operated from August 1940 in a prewar ammunition bunker adapted for its new function. The largest room was a morgue, which was changed into a provisional gas chamber. There were three furnaces for burning corpses in crematorium I, ordered by the camp administration from the Topf and Söhne company, which installed them.

When the gas chambers in Birkenau were going into operation, the camp authorities transferred the mass killing operation there and gradually phased out the first gas chamber. In July 1943, after the completion of the Birkenau crematoria, the burning of corpses in crematorium I ended. The furnaces and chimney were dismantled, and the holes in the roof used for introducing Zyklon B were closed. Two of the three furnaces and the chimney were reconstructed (from original parts), and several of the holes in the roof of the gas chamber were reopened.

Outside the boundaries of the Museum, the railroad siding and unloading platform (the so-called Judenramp or "old ramp") is commemorated. Transports of Jews deported for killing, and also of Roma and prisoners of other nationalities, arrived here from 1942-1944.

YOU GODDAMNED FUCKING ASSHOLE, YOU ARE SAYING THAT *AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU WERE DIFFERENT CAMPS AND THAT NO ONE DIED SYSTEMATICALLY IN AUSCHWITZ BUT THEY DID IN BIRKENAU WHEN BIRKENAU WAS BUILT WHEN THEY DIDN’T HAVE SPACE IN AUSCHWITZ ANYMORE TO KILL PEOPLE *INCLUDING FUCKING POLISH POLITICAL PRISONERS WHO WERE THE FIRST CATEGORY IN THERE FOR TWO FUCKING YEARS* AND THEN *I* AM THE ONE DOING HISTORICAL REVISIONISM??? ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL??

MISCONCEPTION?????

MISCONCEPTION???????

and *I* m the revisionis according to you???????

and you actually don’t have the decency to realize you’re wrong and like drop this conversation and shut the fuck up already?

nooooooo trash talk me and say to pre-eventively block because why the fuck not?

here, you want pictures because you don’t trust the website?

I FUCKING TOOK THEM WHEN I WENT. HAVE YOU? SINCE YOU’RE FUCKING ***AMERICAN*** I DOUBT IT AND TBH YOU BEING AMERICAN IN THIS CASE TRUMPS WHATEVER ELSE YOU ARE BECAUSE AMERICANS TALKING ABOUT WWII AS IF THEY LIVED IT WHEN THEY DON’T HAVE A RELATIVE THAT FOUGHT IN IT CAN, AS FAR AS I’M CONCERNED, SHUT THE HELL UP ALREADY, SIT BACK AND LEARN FROM US PEOPLE WHO LIVE WHERE IT WAS ACTUALLY FOUGHT.

anyway, this is the gas chamber + ovens in auschwitz 1. I was inside it. it wasn’t nice. I still wanna vomit if I think about it. sure as hell I wouldn’t be using it to prove a point about fandom if I were you.

that’s the ovens:

BUT NONE OF THAT EXISTED IN AUSCHWITZ 1????????

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????

then again, have a few other choice things that I took pictures of while I was having my merry stroll around the place while trying to not throw up in my mouth:

LOOK AT HOW MANY CATEGORIES ARE LISTED IN THAT HANDY, PRETTY CHART, HMMMMMM? I even put the high-res picture in case you wanna look at it in depth :D

that’s the monument for FRENCH PATRIOTS OF WAR BUT I GUESS THOSE don’t count either. aaaah and wait a moment I went into the barracks and took pictures of the explanations and look at what I have for you:

just in case you can’t bother to open it: that’s about the execution of polish citizens and the quote of the nazi commander in the white tag is:

‘'if I wanted to put up a poster for every seven poles who were shot the polish forests wouldn't be enough to produce the paper for such notices'.

UHM. A HANDFUL OF POLISH GOYIM, @gamoralives? god, you’re such a blatant, spineless hypocrite I can’t even.

ah, but wait, I’m not done:

I think that one’s large enough you can read it yourself.

like, wow, and I am the revisionist.

I’d say kindly shut the fuck up just based on that, but hey, then you went and reblogged this piece of shit post which has been making me almost vomit my tea all over again:

POOR

DEFENSELESS

EUROPEANS IN NAZI OCCUPIED COUNTRIES

for WILLINGLY HANDING THEIR JEWS OVER TO GERMANS?????????????????? MOST EUROPEANS WERE GLAD?????????

@tikkunolamorgtfo I’M TAGGING YOU BECAUSE APPARENTLY YOU HAVEN’T BLOCKED ME YET, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT? FUCK. YOU.

NAZIS FORCIBLY INVADED MOST OF THIS GODDAMNED FUCKING CONTINENT. THE FRENCH CERTAINLY DIDN’T WANT GERMANS ON THEIR SOIL. THE POLISH DIDN’T AS WELL AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT GIVEN POLAND’S HISTORY WITH BOTH THEM AND THE RUSSIANS. THE SLOVENES, HUNGARIANS, CZECHS AND SERBS SURE AS FUCKING HELL DIDN’T ASK FOR IT EITHER, NOR THE NETHERLANDS WHICH WERE NEUTRAL AND NOR THE DANISH NOR BELGIUM AND YOU GODDAMNED LYING ASSHOLE, if you go to the copenhagen jewish museum there’s an entire part of it just dedicated to how the danish rallied and tried to send off to sweden as many jewish people as they could.

but no, you’re here saying that we’re all happy that the nazis/russians/americans/whoever else occupied our damned nations and did whatever the fuck they wanted just because we wanted to get rid of the jewish people?

well I’m going to tell you a story since y’all are so sure I can’t talk about wwii because I’m neither jewish nor roma but never mind. one or two. to you, gamoralives and all the goddamned assholes on that thread who didn’t even have the guts to engage with me directly because you know you’re wrong. and since I’m from italy, THE LAND OF THE DOUBLE-CROSSING PPL DURING WARS, let me just tell you a few things I can say as someone who’s studied this shit for twenty years.

1) hitler thought mussolini was his role model and shit. guess what, fascism initially targeted some categories, which were either killed or sent off to ‘confino’ which was basically ‘we’re sending you to a small town in the middle of nowhere where everyone knows you don’t like the regime’. who got sent to confino? political adversaries, gay men, prostitutes and trans people. and while sad to say ghetto is an originally italian word so we have our bad history of antisemitism as well, guess what, there were no laws against jewish people until ‘38 when mussolini officially allied with hitler and had to get on with the plan, and actually ALL THE NEOFASCISTS IN ITALY WHO JUSTIFY HIM SAY THAT ‘HEY HE WAS GOOD BUT THEN HE MADE THE MISTAKE OF LISTENING TO HITLER AND DOING THE RACIAL LAWS’, but you wouldn’t know that, would you? while europe has never not been antisemite BUT actually at the beginning of the 20th century things had been going better until hitler showed up, NO ONE WAS FUCKING THINKING ABOUT GENOCID-ING ANYONE IN THOSE TERMS. but okay.

2) the italian government seeing how the tide was turning in 1943 decided to change sides and go with the americans instead after deposing mussolini - fair enough, except that THEY DIDN’T WARN ANYONE LESS OF ALL THE ITALIAN ARMY which resulted in all the italian soldiers stationed in places not under allied control to end up deported to concentration camps and so on, except that then it gets better because italy got split in two with americans south of salerno and the germans north of it which meant we ended up in a civil war where partisans fought nazis in the north and americans tried to advance from the south and hmm

wow, just the russians whose total death toll was TWENTY MILLION did better than us but never mind that, SINCE YOU DIDN’T BOTHER TO READ MY OP, LET ME REMIND YOU THAT THE GERMANS WENT AROUND KILLING CIVILIANS RANDOMLY INCLUDING 130 CHILDREN AT ONCE FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE CIVIL WAR AND THAT THE ALLIED FRENCH ARMY POST-CASSINO RAPED AN AMOUNT OF MOST LIKELY 7K PEOPLE CAUSING A RIDICULOUSLY HIGH NUMBER OF SUICIDES ESPECIALLY IN BETWEEN WOMEN, but if you’d fucking bother, never mind:

After the armistice with the Allies, some 650,000 members of the Italian armed forces who refused to side with the occupying Germans were interned in concentration and labour camps. Of these, around 50,000 died while imprisoned or while under transportation. A further 29,000 died in armed struggles against the Germans while resisting capture immediately following the armistice

how bad, but:

marzabotto massacre (700+ dead)

fosse ardeatine massacre

sant’anna di stazzema massacre (130 children including A TWENTY-DAYS OLD)

or you could go on the WHOLE WIKIPEDIA PAGE ABOUT WWII massacres here where idk I’m opening a few pages at random of stuff happened in PLACES THAT THE NAZIS OCCUPIED:

Kisielin massacre was a massacre of Polish worshipers which took place in the Volhynian village of Kisielin (Second Polish Republicuntil 1939), now Kysylyn, located in the Volyn Oblast, Ukraine. It took place on Sunday, July 11, 1943, when units of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), supported by local Ukrainian peasants, surrounded Poles who had gathered for a ceremony at a local Roman-Catholic church. Around 60 to 90 persons or more, men, women and children – were ordered to take off their clothes and were then massacred by machine gun. The wounded were killed with weapons such as axes and knives. Those who survived (around 200 by some accounts) escaped to the presbytery and barricaded themselves for eleven hours.

The Kragujevac massacre was the mass murder of between 2,778 and 2,794 mostly Serb men and boys in Kragujevac by Germansoldiers on 21 October 1941. It occurred in the German-occupied territory of Serbia during World War II, and came in reprisal for insurgent attacks in the Gornji Milanovac district that resulted in the deaths of 10 German soldiers and the wounding of 26 others. The number of hostages to be shot was calculated as a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe. (3k deaths total)

The Kraljevo massacre was the mass murder of approximately 2,000 residents of the central Serbian city of Kraljevo by the Wehrmacht between 15 and 20 October 1941, during World War II. The massacre came in reprisal for a joint Partisan–Chetnik attack on a German garrison in which 10 German soldiers were killed and 14 wounded. The number of hostages to be shot was calculated based on a ratio of 100 hostages executed for every German soldier killed and 50 hostages executed for every German soldier wounded, a formula devised by Adolf Hitler with the intent of suppressing anti-Nazi resistance in Eastern Europe.

In World War II, in Nazi-occupied Czechoslovakia, the Lidice massacre was a complete destruction of the village of Lidice, in the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, now in the Czech Republic, in June 1942 on orders from Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler.In reprisal for the assassination of Reich Protector Reinhard Heydrich in the late spring of 1942, all 173 males over 15 years of age from the village were executed on 10 June 1942. Another 11 men who were not in the village were arrested and executed soon afterwards, along with several others already under arrest. The 184 women and 88 children were deported to concentration camps; a few children considered racially suitable for Germanisation were handed over to SS families and the rest were sent to the Chełmno extermination camp where they were gassed to death. The Associated Press, quoting German radio received in New York, said: "All male grownups of the town were shot, while the women were placed in a concentration camp, and the children were entrusted to appropriate educational institutions." About 340 people from Lidice died because of the German reprisal (192 men, 60 women and 88 children) and after the war ended, only 153 women and 17 children returned.

The Maillé Massacre refers to the murder on 25 August 1944 of 124 of the 500 residents of the commune of Maillé in the department of the Indre-et-Loire. Following an ambush a few days before and in reprisals against activities of the French Resistance, Second Lieutenant Gustav Schlüter and his men organized the massacre and burnt the village. Forty-eight children were among the dead. The SS unit believed to be responsible for the massacre is the SS-Feldersatzbataillon 17 of 17th SS Panzergrenadier Division Götz von Berlichingen (Lieb, 2007). In contrast to Oradour-sur-Glane, the village was rebuilt after the war to its pre-war state (Delahousse, 2008).

The Muczne massacre of 16 August 1944 was the massacre of Polish civilians committed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UIA) in village Muczne located in Bieszczady County in Poland.Among the Poles were mainly refugees after the repression of the population in Volhynia and retreating in front of - 70 Poles were murdered. They were residents of nearby villages such as foresters, priests and children. Members of the UPA murdered Poles with axes, pitchforks and scythes.In place of the murder in 2010 the memorial and a wooden cross was erected.

The Palikrowy massacre was a war crime committed by 4th police SS-regiment made up of Ukrainian soldiers of the SS-Galizien who were removed from the SS-Galizien at the time of the massacre and placed under German police command, Ukrainian SVK ("Self-defence", Ukrainian: Samoobronni Kuszczowi Widdiły) forces and Ukrainian Insurgent Army on Poles in the village of Palikrowy (since 1945 Palykorovy), which took place on 12 March 1944. A total of 385 Poles were killed. Palikrowy was an ethnically mixed village, with 70% Polish population. In 1944, the population was about 1880, with about 360 houses. The action in Palikrowy was coordinated with the attack on nearby Pidkamin including the monastery in Pidkamin, where some of inhabitants from Palikrowy were hiding during the massacre of Poles in Volhynia. All the inhabitants of Palikrowy were gathered on a meadow near village. The Ukrainian inhabitants of the village were released. Then the Poles were killed by two heavy machine guns. Only a few wounded people survived. Polish houses were burned down and hiding Polish civilians were murdered, and their property stolen.

or, SINCE WE’RE DISCUSSING THE POLISH: The massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia (Polish: rzeź wołyńska, literally: Volhynian slaughter; Ukrainian: Волинська трагедія, Volyn tragedy), was an ethnic cleansing (some polish scientiests think that was a genocide) carried out in Nazi German-occupied Poland by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the UPA) against Poles in the area of Volhynia, Polesia, Lublin region and Eastern Galicia beginning in 1943 and lasting up to 1945. The peak of the genocide took place in July and August 1943. Most of the victims were women and children. UPA's methods were particularly brutal, with many of the victims being tortured and mutilated, and resulted in 40,000–60,000 Polish deaths in Volhynia and 30,000–40,000 in Eastern Galicia, with the other regions for the total about 100,000.

The Janowa Dolina massacre took place on 23 April 1943 in the village of Janowa Dolina, (now Bazaltove, Ukraine) during occupation of Poland in World War II. Before the Nazi-Soviet invasion of the Polish Second Republic, Janowa Dolina was a model settlement built in the Kostopol County of the Wołyń Voivodeship by workers of the Polish State Basalt Quarry. The town was inhabited by 2,500 people. Its name, which translates as the "Jan's Valley" in Polish, came from the Polish king Jan Kazimierz, who reportedly hunted in the Volhynian forests, and after hunting — rested on the shore of the Horyń (Horyn) River. The town was destroyed during World War II by Ukrainian nationalists who murdered most of its Polish population including women and children

The massacre of Uus street was committed by German forces and local collaborators on 30 August 1941 in Tallinn.German forces occupied Tallinn on 28 August 1941 after the Soviet evacuation of Tallinn. The German occupation forces included a local Omakaitse militia. Einsatzgruppe Acommanded by Franz Walter Stahlecker closely followed the German front units, actively recruiting local nationalists and antisemitic groups to instigate pogroms against the local Jewish population.

The Huta Pieniacka massacre was a massacre of the Polish inhabitants of the village Huta Pieniacka, located in modern-day Ukraine, which took place on February 28, 1944. Estimates of the number of victims range from 500, to 1,200. Polish and Ukrainian historians disagree over the responsibility for the Huta Pienacka massacre. According to the Polish Institute of National Remembrance, the action was committed by the 14th subunit of the '1st Ukrainian' Grenadier Division of the Waffen-SS. Polish witnesses testified that the orders were given by German officers. According to Ukrainian sources, it was committed by the German police battalions. According to witness accounts and scholarly publications, SS Galizien were accompanied by a paramilitary unit of Ukrainian nationalists under Włodzimierz (Vladimir) Czerniawski's command, including members of the UPA and inhabitants of local villages who intended to seize property found in the households of the murdered.

I’m not going ahead because this post is already too long but I’d really like to ask tumblr user @tikkunolamorgtfo if they think that ALL THE PEOPLE WHO DIED AS A RESULT OF WWII HAPPENING IN THE AFOREMENTIONED INSTANCES WOULD HAVE SIGNED FOR IT IN EXCHANGE FOR HAVING ALL THE JEWISH POPULATION REMOVED.

LIKE.

ARE YOU *SERIOUSLY* IMPLYING THAT ALL OF THE ABOVE WAS A THING EUROPEAN CIVILIANS FROM OCCUPIED NATIONS WERE OKAY WITH BECAUSE IN EXCHANGE THEY COULD SEND JEWISH PEOPLE TO DEATH???? BECAUSE THAT’S LIKE, FUCKING DISGUSTING, AND YOU’RE HONESTLY OVERREACHING LIKE NOTHING ELSE HERE. but nah, sure thing, everyone was so antisemite they totally would have died as well because hey, at least the category we hate more than we love ourselves gets to die, right?

you fucking asshole, of course in an occupied country people will collaborate with the forces occupying it in order to survive and to not get killed especially if you have a family, but assuming that we all accepted it and actually wanted it to happen is disgusting, not true, a slap in the face of everyone who died fighting the nazis and it can only come from someone who has no fucking clue of the vast consequences wwii had on everyone in this fucking thrice-darned continent. 

also, y’all demeaning the polish deaths in auschwitz/during their occupation in WWII is fucking insulting af because sorry but:

first you say the polish weren’t doing enough to fight against the nazis (even i they also were specifically targeted but y’all keep on ignoring that)

then you ignore that most polish people who died in concentration camps (YES IN AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU TOO YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES) WERE POLITICAL FUCKING PRISONERS

POLITICAL PRISONERS

WHICH MEANS THEY WERE EITHER COMMUNIST OR SOCIALIST OR ANTI-NAZI OR ONE OR MORE OF THEM

WHICH MEANS *THEY DIED BECAUSE THEY WERE ANTI-NAZI* 

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED POLISH PEOPLE TO DO

AND YOU *DARE* SPITTING ON THOSE DEATHS SAYING THAT IT WAS A HANDFUL????

let me c/p it for you:

The number of Polish dead are estimated to number between 5.6 and 5.8 million according to the Institute of National Remembrance(2009). Documentation remains fragmentary, but today scholars of independent Poland believe that 1.8 to 1.9 million Polish civilians (non-Jews) and 3 million jews were victims of German Occupation policies and the war for a total of just under 5 million dead.

FIVE/FIVE-AND A HALF MILLION PEOPLE.

AND YOU CALL IT FUCKING HANDFUL?

NO ONE, LIKE LITERALLY NO ONE TRIED TO SAY THE JEWISH WEREN’T THE MAIN VICTIMS/TARGETS OF THE HOLOCAUST/WWII.

BUT YOU ARE SAYING THE ABOVE DOESN’T MATTER AND YOU’RE PROCEEDING TO INSULT THE MEMORY OF EVERYONE WHO FUCKING DIED THANKS TO THE NAZIS IN WWII and I haven’t even touched the russian war crimes but nvm that. honestly? HONESTLY?

AND I AM THE HISTORICAL REVISIONIST THAT YOUR FUCKING FRIENDS WON’T EVEN REBLOG FROM DIRECTLY AND BLOCK BEFORE SHE CAN DEFEND HERSELF BECAUSE DEEP DOWN THEY KNOW THEY’RE SPROUTING BULLSHIT?

HAHAHAHAHAHA.jpeg.

like. NO ONE like NO ONE IS EVER DENYING IT and fyi you’re talking to someone who has more than once defended the existence of israel in front of people who say it should be obliterated exactly because I think its *existence* is the least we owe jewish people for the european history of antisemitism that we have on our shoulders, and if you want the receipts I even did it on this hellsite once, HERE if you want to see how fucking antisemite I am.

but you and your friends are purposefully downplaying about everything that’s not what you want, and on top of that you are excluding from your holocaust victim list:

THIS IS A FUCKING OFFICIAL-ISH LIST OF HOLOCAUST VICTIMS.

all these categories were targeted under the holocaust.

that’s historical facts.

you cannot go and say that someone stating the facts is doing revisionism when the only people doing any such thing are you and your fucking friends.

ALSO, since y’all are absolutely denying the existence of the pacific front, I will remind you kindly a few things:

unit 731 existed;

the japanese made twice the victims compared to the nazist;

japanese war crimes have zero to envy the nazi war crimes tbqh;

and since y’all are so fond of doing math to prove that the polish were shitty and that they were, like, WORSE THAN ANY OTHER OCCUPIED NATION (spoilers: lmao) and to demean the fact that even with that they still have more than a quarter of the names in the just among the nations (ps: in krakow’s history of wwii museum [or the schindler factory now I don’t recall] there are two computers with a huge af database of names. on the left you have the people who helped the jewish people somehow, on the right you have the collaborationists and you can read their life story. SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THEY ARE AWARE SOME OF THEM WERE ASSHOLES), and since y’all are a bunch of hypocrites who use real life tragedies to make a fandom point and insult idek how many people in the meantime and are also a number of things I’ll say at the end, let me do some basic math for you and I’ll also show you that reading the war in black and white is lost effort:

see that chart above?

SEE THE NUMBERS?

okay then.

jewish people: six million.

roma people: between 130k and 5k.

serbians: between 300k people and 600k people. THEY EVEN CRANK THAT TOP FIVE. WOW, AMRITE?

now. let’s take the lowest one and say that the serbians killed were 300k people.

THE NANKING MASSACRE ONLY - THAT ONE ONLY - HAD A DEATH TOLL OF 300K PEOPLE.

which means that the japanese killed in one single occasion/war crime/however you call it as many serbians as the nazis did in the course of the entire fucking war, or half the number if you take the 600k figure. but wait a moment, who, during the whole nanking affair, saved 250k people?

A FUCKING GERMAN BUSINESSMAN NAMED JOHN RABE WHO WAS ACTUALLY IN THE NAZI PARTY AND STILL SAVED THAT MANY PEOPLE TO THE POINT THAT WHEN AFTER THE WAR HE FELL INTO DISGRACE AND HE COULDN’T EAT, PEOPLE FROM NANKING SENT HIM FOOD AND RALLIED UP MONEY FOR HIM AND GUESS WHAT AFTER HE DIED HE WAS EVENTUALLY BURIED THERE RATHER THAN IN GERMANY.

like.

as I said in my first op which of course you didn’t fucking bother to link, WWII and the holocaust and the asian genocide AND everything that made it up including the pacific front that y’all just don’t really want to acknowledge, is the most fucking mucked up ethical situation in existence because again, not counting the targeted categories of the mass genocide(s) and even with that we can discuss because as we said some polish people were collaborators, the russians persecuted jewish people themselves and so on, EVERYONE ON EVERY SIDE COMMITTED ETHICAL ATROCITIES AND WHILE OF COURSE THE ALLIES EVENTUALLY WERE IN THE RIGHT POSITION THEY CERTAINLY DIDN’T SHY FROM DOING EXTREMELY SHITTY THINGS AND I’M SAYING BRITISH, AMERICANS, RUSSIANS AND EVERYONE INVOLVED AND THE WESTERN BETRAYAL ISN’T EVEN HALF OF IT. and wwii is world war two because it involved the entire fucking planet, so trying to tell people that *TWO* CATEGORIES OWN IT AND NO ONE ELSE CAN TALK ABOUT IT IS A) DEMEANING EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED DURING IT, B) FACTUALLY INCORRECT.

ALSO, y’all are still glossing over the fact that - NOT EVEN COUNTING THE POLITICAL PRISONERS DISCOURSE because I know that getting you to agree that communists, socialist and prisoners of war could be a targeted category is wasting time - SPECIFIC TARGETED VICTIMS OF THE ****HOLOCAUST**** WERE:

disabled people because they were disabled (and most of those either were killed straight or were used for medical experiments and none of those survived) so thanks for being ableist fucks and forgetting 270k people;

gay people/queer people because they were fucking gay/queer and guess what MOST OF THE SURVIVED ONES GOT ARRESTED LATER BECAUSE BEING GAY WAS STILL A CRIME ANYWAY so hey thanks for forgetting those 15k people as well, I’m sure you love the smell of homophobia in the morning;

polish + serbians + slavic people FOR BEING SLAVIC and that chart isn’t counting the hungarians/czechs as well so like if we take it with the highest value we can say you’re forgetting four million people tops and HERE in europe it’d be considered as pretty damn racist because yes you can be racist against slavic people;

the poor jehova’s witnesses obviously deserved to die there because they like to press your intercom button to tell you about our lord and savior jesus christ I guess, but nvm it was enough of them they had their purple little triangle in auschwitz, the place where PEOPLE DIDN’T DIE;

we’re obviously not gonna touch the poor spanish revolutionaries who were from a place with a huuuuuuhhhhh fascist dictatorship? ah well, 7k is really not that much, right?

idk what you want to do with the data about russians pows/civilians which if we take the highest count as in 4.5 + 3.3 makes for a whopping 7,8 million people that makes a little more than 1/4 of the total 20 million ussr casualties on a total of 80 million total which means that one fucking fourth of ALL wwii casualties were russians, but hey, that’s math for you.

the entire point is that YOU CANNOT RECLAIM OWNERSHIP OF A HISTORICAL EVEN WHERE THAT MANY PEOPLE DIED AND THINGS WERE ETHICALLY MUCKED ON BOTH SIDES AND SIMPLIFYING THINGS IS NOT A THING YOU CAN OR SHOULD DO OUT OF INTELLECTUAL HONESTY and like... first y’all say wwii and the holocaust are one thing, then that they’re separate, THEN YOUR FUCKING PAL GAMORALIVES HAS THE GALL TO SAY THAT SHIT ABOUT AUSCHWITZ AND BIRKENAU WHICH IS LITERALLY THE FIRST THING YOU LEARN WHEN YOU OPEN A FUCKING BOOK ABOUT AUSCHWITZ AND YOU DON’T EVEN CALL HER OUT ON *THAT* BULLSHIT, BUT THEN YOU GO AROUND SAYING THAT WE’RE REVISIONISTS???

BECAUSE WE SAID THE FACTUAL TRUTH IE THAT A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT CATEGORIES DIED BECAUSE OF NAZI CRIMES?

like, especially if you’re american and your grandfather didn’t risk losing a limb or getting ptsd in this damned war: don’t. and tbh if you’re american and willingly ignore the pacific front when the usa basically shouldered most of that side of the war by themselves out of all the allied coalition idek what you learn in school but I’m fucking worried about your educational system.

but sure go around saying that that I’m an *antisemite* just because I told you the actual historical facts while you demean around, idk, 70 million people deaths with your arguments contradicting themselves and @gamoralives goes around sprouting factual bullshit about how auschwitz works (because excuse me that’s factual bullshit period) and y’all do it after having blocked me preventively (okay, the tumblr user I tagged hasn’t yet but I’m sure it’s a short time coming) and haven’t engaged with me directly once because I have an inkling that having my original OPs on their blog would have made them look like the assholes they are. totes makes sense. next time I run into my former ***self-declared fascist*** classmates who called me a jew-abiding commie when I was nine I’ll tell them that according to you I agree with them. jfc.

and fyi, I never, never, NEVER in my entire life read anything by a jewish wwii survivor or a jewish wwii historian or anyone jewish discussing wwii/writing about wwii/making movies about wwii where the message was your message. the message usually was ‘we were the main targeted party but other people were with us as well and we can only hope it never happens again if everyone knows about it and talks about it’, and I can assure you I read wwii fiction, nonfiction and such on made by people of every damned background including memorials of camps survivors.

I mean, you ever read this is a man?

written by italian jewish chemist-then-writer primo levi who survived auschwitz and later killed himself out of survivor’s guilt?

I mean, if I were you I’d consider reading this shit and then avoiding saying things that go directly against what actual auschwitz survivors had to say about the entire thing while automatically having a greater understanding of how human nature works than any of us in this discussion, but what have you, you have the infused truth given to you and no one else around here has and you’re all, constantly, treating world war two as if it happened in a social context that’s, guess what, the usa’s.

it. was. not. deal with it and for the love of fucking everything at least if you want to call me an antisemite do it to my fucking face and not vagueblogging about me and only c/p-ing comments and not, like, THE ENTIRE OP.

but hey, we all know that if you knew you were in the right you would let your followers read what I actually said in the first place.

but honestly, honestly, I’m fucking appalled that I had to write all of this crap down and that we’re fucking comparing AUSCHWITZ CAMPS BECAUSE Y’ALL WANT TO MAKE A POINT ABOUT A DUMBASS *FICTIONAL FANFIC THAT WASN’T EVEN WRITTEN YET* AND YOU’RE DOING THIS OVER SHIP FANDOM DRAMA.

I mean, it seems to me that discussing this shit over fucking fandom drama is tasteless and honestly insulting af but whatever, you have the incensed truth of it.

please come at me and tell me how wrong I am.

to my face, thank you. btw: it’s rich of you to assume that poland in wwii was the template for how every other country behaved especially bc poland has a specific history that’s not shared by most other european countries, but reading your posts one starts thinking that according to you most of wwii got fought in poland while everyone else was chilling back and sending targeted categories to concentration camps while sipping a few margaritas and then all of a sudden the americans decided to drop the h bomb on the japanese BECAUSE THEY FELT LIKE IT (I mean you didn’t say that but knowing how tumblr talks about wwii I have a feeling it’s where it’s headed) and then it was all over but let me tell you, it’s so wrong and simplicistic and misinformed and misleading that I don’t think the level of a-historicism in all of your posts - and your friends’s which I haven’t shared because otherwise I’d have been here until tomorrow - is so mind-boggling it’s not quantifiable.

cheers. ps: technically I could report you for slandering me because that’s just about what you did. think about that. and no, you couldn’t report me for the contrary because differently from you I never said anything that wasn’t true or sourced and most of all I never once said jewish people weren’t the most targeted group.

have fun, I guess, if you read this far.

ah, btw, just because you’re demeaning consequences of wwii on civilians: my grandmother didn’t fight in it and wasn’t part of any targeted category, but they were starving so much during the war (and they were in the american side of italy good for them) that for the following sixty years up until she died she wouldn’t waste a drop of food, she wouldn’t spend a cent that wasn’t absolutely necessary and wouldn’t go to the doctor’s because IT WASN’T AS BAD AS THE WAR and every time anyone told her to take a rest she’d say that WE WEREN’T IN THE WAR SO WE COULDN’T UNDERSTAND and it ended with all of her kids having... issues that more or less go back to that and her approach on life made sure that she spent her old age suffering for shit she could have helped but wouldn’t because THE WAR and she died after one year of real fucking bad conditions BECAUSE SHE ENDED UP IN THOSE CONDITIONS BECAUSE OF HER ISSUES THAT WENT BACK TO FUCKING WWII and if it was like that for her try imagine people who fought in it or survived it or their descendants and come tell me to my face again that no one else suffered because of the fucking second world war.

sincerely, go fuck yourself. all of you. and I hope you feel half-ashamed that you went as far as this but I have a feeling y’all are so self-centered you wouldn’t get it.

ps: I’m done with this discourse from this point on but like if y’all think I’m letting you shit talk me behind my back you can forget it. :)

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

I understand you're interested in fascist masculinity in asoiaf. You should look up photos of Nazi doctor Karl Brandt he has a look about him that for me just screams young Tywin Lannister. He was in charge of the eugenics program and was considered an ideal Aryan Nazi, and also a very reserved, conscientious, serious workaholic and rabid Nazi. He just simply reminds me so much of Tywin.

I think this is a message for @joannalannister, so let me forward it over to her!

[toyourliking]

my grandfather was a nazi, and this is what i learnt from him

I feel like this post has been a long time coming.

Okay, right off the bat? I hate my grandfather. Immensely.

I never met him and for that I’m eternally grateful. All I’ve experience of him is the impact he had on my father and uncles, and that’s enough to enrage me.

Growing up I absolutely loved the Indiana Jones series, especially The Last Crusade. I’d watch them with my dad when I was waaay too young to be watching them. One of the ‘lessons’ I learnt from those movies was that all Nazis deserve to die in horrific ways, and my dad actually nurtured this belief. And being half German I also grew up knowing that I had a connection to this godawful history, and I should be knowledgeable of it. I just didn’t know how close I was until a couple years ago.

(My opa)

I knew my opa had been in WWII, but the reasons behind him fighting had always been unclear. I’d been told he’d been threatened, or his family was in danger if he didn’t sign up, but nothing consistent. It wasn’t until I was digging around (cause I’m a curious cat) and I found my family’s immigration records that I found out. My grandfather, my opa, was a member of the Hitler Youth, and then a full member of the Nazi Party, leaving the party only to join the air-force.

Finding this out was fucking devastating. But what this knowledge also did was open my eyes to how my dad behaves, and how that has impacted my brother and me.

(Around 1941, the grumpy baby is my eldest uncle, held by my great-grandmother)

My dad is fascinated by people. He’s always educating himself about different cultures; about their food, their language, their geography, their history. He’s like a little sponge for all this information, and he loves talking to people about all this. Finding out that his father was a Nazi suddenly made this make a lot of sense, in a weird way. Knowing that his father held such abhorrent beliefs, beliefs that resulted in the deaths of millions, it makes sense that my dad would then turn that around and instead grow his empathy for others. And this is something he’s instilled in my brother and me. Also definitely where I got my neurotic tendencies from; I’m constantly worried that I’ve offended someone lol.

Probably a strange lesson to take away from learning you’re directly related to a Nazi, but I’ll take it. I do enough things out of spite, and educating myself and becoming a more compassionate and open minded person are definitely some of the best things to do to spite a Nazi. Also can’t help but wonder how angry he’d be if he knew about his mentally ill lesbian granddaughter who was born with a facial deformity alskgjhdlg

But I also believe this gives me the responsibility of dealing with Neo-Nazis and white supremacists. I am a descendant of people who were responsible for a catastrophic atrocity, and as long as there is breath in my body I will not see it happen again.

[kinghamilton]

Good.

(x) The FIA is currently investigating Artem Severiukhin for doing a Nazi Salute on the podium yesterday ... as they should

[xxxdragonfucker69xxx]

nazis are bitches fascists are dumb as all fuck trump can suck rat dick

[motherboxing]

I have a vague memory of telling someone on tumblr to read a book once, and them responding with, essentially, “Oh, read a book? Well, Mein Kampf is a book, I guess you want me to BE A NAZI THEN” and like, I am sure that this happened but also it was so long ago and it is such a specifically stupid and offensive interaction to have had that there is a part of me that’s, like, “no, that cannot have happened, it’s way too on the nose.”

[tombwolf]

Teen Wolf - Blitzkrieg (6x8) Sneak Peek | The REAL Mr. Douglas

[espeoradar]

time to remind everyone that the germa 66 are very strongly implied to be a nazi/third reich allegory:

i get that law being a comics nerd is fun, but stop saying laws a secret fan of the germa when hes already said that he hates them

[dilfsisko]

thievesguilding replied to your post: thievesguilding replied to your post: ...

…………your dad is. such an asshole holy shit. calling someone Who Is Converting The Fuck To Judaism a nazi FOR NOT LIKING THE PRESIDENT is just so beyond fucked oh my god

he’s mad because i said it during a time where he was ‘honoring veterans’ but i know the man doesn’t actually CARE about ww2 veterans, he’s just using them to make himself look better. It is fucked up, and like im trying not to let it upset me but like god 

[janiedean]

Oh my G-d I'm just catching up on this discourse and it's....A Lot. I don't even know how discussion of the Shoah came up in fandom like this? I /think/ it had to do with goyim writing a N/azi fic, which is repulsive, but I don't see the harm in a user pointing out that other groups were also murdered by the N/azis. I don't think it's undermining my family's pain to broadly discuss the harm N/azis did: I think it's communal, a shared pain. But others might see different, I know that. Anyway.

like from what I hear because I was out and I just was there for the last part of that wank, but tldr someone wanted to write fic based off suite française but actually never did and at this point most likely won’t, and those people flipped and started with ‘it’s distasteful’ (discussion to be had but I can see why I mean I personally am not a fan of fanfic with nazi recasts or the romeo and juliet trope with the nazis done like a harmony book because I mean I haven’t seen that movie/read the book but the book is apparently excellent and I only heard good things about it I should read it asap) and then went into that and like one thing is discussing what’s an appropriate fic subject or not possibly explaining well-intentioned people why it might not be a good idea, another is ‘hey just these two groups have a say in deciding who gets to talk about this subject period’ and then if you tell them ‘er sorry those other groups also were targeted’ you’re suddenly a nazi apologist?? I mean I honestly can’t believe in the first place that this is a discussion people are having in order to stir fandom wank and honest that’s why I only butted in when it became about strict historical stuff and not FANDOM WANK because honestly what the hell, but.... eh. honestly the thing we were all trying to say was ‘obviously jewish and the roma were the most affected categories but other people also died during the holocaust you’re kind of sounding like you don’t care’ and apparently we’re being deniers. idek but like I hope this discussion dies down also because I’m blocking everyone involved in it I said my piece, but I honestly can’t with people actually comparing auschwitz and birkenau or bringing out the ‘concentration camps are in poland so the polish built them’ argument (I mean with all you can say to criticize the polish antisemitism I don’t think they were building concentration camps) because... fandom drama instead of educating that person about the whole picture re why wwii is not a good idea in most cases especially if you’re recasting someone as the nazi person. I mean you explain people why certain things are a bad idea especially if they’re well-intentioned, you don’t just.... do.... this whole thing.

/my very humble two cents obviously

[deanwinchestrs]

You know, I thought of something else disgusting about N*zi Castiel.

Wouldn't this be the second time now bucklemming has wrote a LGBT character being tortured by a nazi? They were the ones who wrote Charlie being tortured and killed by one. Now they took a character like Castiel, played by an actor who wants nothing to do with Nazism, and made him torture a lesbian.

Given the fragile history here, what the hell were bucklemming thinking? Did they just want to hurt Misha? Their LGBT fans? What was the point of this decision?

It feels deliberate. Especially because they didn't even give Misha any warning...

(x)(x)(x)—

[coldtomyflash]

So I've been following your tumblr for a while now, and I've seen everything you've had to say about the crossover. I should preface this by saying that I am white with no Jewish ancestry. So I suppose my place isn't the question, because this does not affect me directly. However: I do not understand how showing Nazis as villains is a bad thing. I am not questioning that it hurts people. I've seen that it clearly does. What I question is "Why?" I don't grasp why Nazi=villains is a bad thing.

I’m going to be bluntly honest here. I had to mentally dismiss about ten blithe responses to this that were on the order of that now-infamous tweet “I don’t know how to explain to you that you should care about other people.” I know that’s not what you’re saying, but I struggled, when I read this, to grasp how you could say that you see the harm (hurt) it is causing and yet don’t see that it’s wrong. 

And how it could be true that you’ve actually read this post, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and this one, and some of the other stuff I’ve put in my tag for the crossover, and yet still be confused about this. And one of those posts, mind you, explicitly explains why it’s more than just “they made Nazis the villains of the crossover”.

And part of why I was tempted to answer blithely is because, given all that, I think it’s been explained time and again what the issue is here, and how it goes so far beyond the fact that them making Nazis the villains is the problem. The other part is because to re-explain it, to break it down to its elemental components? That takes time - hours from the time I started thinking about this to the time I’ll be done writing it - and energy - in terms of research and resources. I’m doing a lot of labour for you, emotionally and physically here. And part of me wants to shirk that labour, to put it on you to do it.

But… I can’t. Because I can answer your question, at least from my own perspective, and it is an important one to answer. Because before I understood just how much my own privilege impacted how I see the world and started to actively push back against it and expand my perception, I probably wouldn’t have fully understood either.

So I can’t explain this as eloquently or succinctly as some other people. And I can’t explain this from the perspective of someone who’s directly being harmed by this crossover (because I am also white and a gentile). And I’m sure many people people who are direct targets of Nazis would tell you that “isn’t it enough that it is harming me?” and they would be right, full stop. That would be an acceptable answer.

But I’m going to do my best to give you the understanding I genuinely think you’re looking for, allowing for the fact that others may have more to add or clarify, and allowing for the fact that my answer is inherently limited by my privilege.

I trust that you’ll read to the end, even though it’s long. And if at the end you still can’t understand, or you think I’m exaggerating, then I urge you to think on this, to sleep on it, and to read more and more about it. And even without understanding, to respect the voices of the Jewish (and gay, and Rroma) people who’ve spoken out about these problems time and again when things like this crop up. Amplify those voices, even if you can’t see the long-term ramifications of why this is ‘Bad’ yet.

First, the issue here cannot be reduced to “Nazis are the villains of the crossover.” Because that [.] at the end is actually a […]. It really goes like this: Nazis are the villains of the crossover…

… and the premise is based on the notion that Nazis won and have world domination.

… and that premise implies that Nazis are so powerful that with a bit of ‘bad luck’ in history, Nazis could have won.

… and that premise contributes to the mythic aggrandizing of Nazism that makes so many people Nazi sympathizers or apologists.

… and many heroes doppelgangers are Nazis. 

… and Jewish-coded heroes’ doppels are Nazis.

… and a Jewish-coded hero who came to earth at age 12 and was raised on better principles than that still became a Nazi.

… and that notion spits on the original intent of the Jewish creators of these characters.

… and all of this implies that “good and heroic” people can still turn out to be Nazis, undermining the very message heroes should send. (Being a hero only when it’s easy is not being a hero at all. Doing the right thing when it’s against what society enforces is what makes them heroes.)

… and this turns the heroes that people (including Jewish people) look up to for hope and comfort into symbols of hatred and genocide.

… and the Nazis interrupt an interracial marriage between a Black woman and a Jewish-coded hero (who is canonically Jewish in parallel media like the DCEU) for the sake of drama.

… and the Nazi doppelganger outfits are designed to look ~*sexy*~ to an uncritical viewer.

… and the ~*sexy*~ doppel outfits include genuine Nazi symbols from WW2, which are pretty damn triggering to a lot of people. (But yet no sign of a swastika because that would most likely turn those uncritical viewers too far off).

… and they’re ~*sexy*~ enough that people already want to cosplay that Nazi and buy merchandise of that Nazi paraphernalia.

… and the promo photos show that a Jewish woman and a Black woman are going to be targeted specifically, thus capitalizing directly off threats and violence to actual historical victims of the Nazis.

… and the promo photos treat Wellsobard (many people’s fave villain) as an allusion to Dr. Mengele, one of the most infamously disgusting and reprehensible people to ever exist.

… and the promos show us images of a gay character and actor wearing a ‘Pink Triangle’ once again being used as a symbol of hate and shame.

… and there is a good chance that a Jewish character (Martin) is going to get killed off during this crossover.

…and the storyline is likely focused on the love story between a white gentile and a Jewish woman who gets targeted by his evil Nazi doppelganger.

… and the shows already have a history of antisemitism by putting a Jewish woman in a gas chamber (wtf Arrow), killing a Jewish one-off villain with radiation in a compressed chamber (Atom Smasher, wtf The Flash), erasing the Jewish identity of some characters (e.g., Ray Palmer) and failing to mention another’s (Martin’s) in three seasons (c’mon Legends), and no-doubt more.

… and … this list goes on. It really does. This is not exhaustive.

And you might be tempted to think “but if the Nazis are defeated, and shown unequivocally to be the bad guys, then isn’t it okay? Isn’t it historically accurate that the Nazis would target the Jewish and Black and LGBTQ characters and wear Nazi symbols anyway? Many of the main producers are Jewish or gay, they’re not trying to say anything good about Nazis.”

So this is where we have to talk about narrative framing, implicit associations, and sociological implications.

The concept of framing in psychology deals with how we can present the exact same information in different ways and get vastly different responses. How we present information, even paired down to simple basic statistics, massively impacts how people internalize and encode that information and therefore how they respond to it.

In narrative, we know that how we frame a character’s motives and background influence how they’ll be perceived by the audience. So many heroes in action movies kill and murder their way through a scene, but their crimes are justified by the narrative frame, whereas the villain’s won’t be. Or in order to humanize villains and make them sympathetic, the narrative may shift the viewer’s paradigm by re-framing the information: yes this villain is an asshole who hurt your favourite character, but they’re doing it because of [x].

So when we look at the crossover, we have to interrogate how it’s being framed. Are the Nazis villains? Yes? Good, check. … But the Nazis are also doppelgangers of our beloved heroes?… Okay, right off the bat, that’s bad. 

That will make some people inherently sympathize with the Nazis doppels and like them. We have an emotional and automatic response to these faces, to these people, that is going to work faster and parallel to how our conscious brain responds to them, and many viewers (those who don’t have an automatic and massively negative knee-jerk response to the premise or the symbolism already built in) will have to be consciously and continuously inhibiting any decision to feel some positive sense toward those characters, and many viewers aren’t going to put in that conscious effort, especially not while the narrative is so distracting. 

(For the record, if you consciously create this negative association it’ll become automatic. We aren’t born hating Nazi symbolism, we encode associations to it, and if you continuously encode negative ones, then you’ll hate other things associated with that symbolism too!)

So now in the crossover, by how our brain creates associations, if we have a positive association with that hero, there is an association now between that hero and their doppelganger, and that doppel and Nazi symbolism. That creates a link between positive feelings and Nazi symbolism. Say what? Look, our brains are simple in their associations and categorizations. There’s ways around this, but if we leave these associations unchecked, this can happen. Especially for viewers who won’t recognize and understand the symbolism like the ‘SS’ on Overgirl’s chest (i.e., younger viewers who are most impressionable and who the education system has seriously failed, and privileged viewers who weren’t taught to have strong negative associations to these less well known Nazi symbols). 

And we already know this is happening. This is literally why we have articles on popular press outlets saying they want to buy merch of Overgirl (Supergirl’s Nazi doppel)’s outfit, which is literally emblazoned across the chest with Nazi symbols. People are saying they want to buy actual Nazi merch and the crossover hasn’t even aired yet. Just… let that sink in for a sec?

So. 

That’s one reason why making heroes as Nazis is bad, and why making Nazis sexy is bad. Because of the automatic associations our brains make with those beloved characters, and even with attraction. If we find something attractive or beautiful, we tend to have automatic associations with that as ‘good’. Beautiful = moral is one of the stronger associations we have and it’s reinforced by media time and again. (Conversely to ugly = evil, or evil = queer. And female villains are often designed for sex appeal but it’s misogynistic anyway because it deals with a lot of bullshit about feminine purity and evil seductresses, and still conflates these associations our brains are going to make).

And look, it’s 2017. We have Richard Spencer the literal Neo Nazi on TV and articles about how this ‘alt-right’ leader is sexy and cool. We don’t need DCTV to jump on the bandwagon of making Nazis seem “cool”. Human beings experience approach motivations toward things we find attractive. The only option is to experience disgust and anger in response to people like Spencer and characters like Overgirl, or else we may fall prey to the implicit associations put forth by the media itself.

And that’s the problem: the media (the DCTV shows) are putting these associations there and forcing the viewers to work against them if we want to watch this and not come out of it as worse people for it. It’s designed to be entertaining and thrilling and they spent millions of dollars making it that way, and so much of that budget went to making the villains what they are.

So it’s not enough for them to say that Nazis are the villains or even to show them getting their asses kicked if they set the Nazis up to start as all-powerful world dominators. It’s not enough to have these characters say “I hate Nazis” when they show their doppels as Nazis and capable of those atrocities.

And if you’re starting to think “there’s an important message here. About how Nazis can look classically attractive but we shouldn’t be taken in by that, and about nature versus nurture and how we need to actively push back against evil within ourselves or else, in another dimension or if things had gone different, even we could be evil.”

That’s… tempting to argue. It’s an important message, to be sure. But given the stylized outfits and triggering imagery and the way they’ve set up the narrative, I don’t anticipate that’s the message we’re getting here. I mean, I think it’ll come up, most definitely, but I don’t think it’s what the viewer is ultimately going to take away from this. Not in the “I need to look within myself and push back against my own biases” sort of way. That’s not the way they’ve framed this.

And for a comparison point, if you want a narrative that says “White supremacists are all evil, don’t get taken in by one who seems ~reasonable~ and looks normal, and see what these modes of thought actually look like” then watch the movie Imperium (2016) and see how they handle it. (And then compare that to American History X, which apparently some Neo Nazis like, even though it’s inherently anti-Nazi, because it paints them as being powerful and is full of the visual symbolism they uphold).

Because the way they’re currently framing the CW crossover, it’s really just about amping up the drama? And they’ve capitalizing on intergenerational trauma of the Jewish community and the collective trauma of the Holocaust to the gay community. And I’ve said elsewhere that I have no doubt the intent was good, but good intentions aren’t enough. 

If the producers don’t understand the damage they can cause by making ~*sexy*~ Nazis literally capable of world-domination (they’re not, they never were, they were superstitious and put genocide and hate over actual scientific advancements and their disgusting experiments on humans didn’t teach us near as much as people pretend they did), and re-writing heroes as Nazis (which, if anyone recalls, created a huge outcry when Marvel wrote Captain America as a Nazi) then regardless of their intent, they need to rethink their storytelling. Or if they really think that the right way to make a statement about the rise of Neo Nazism in the wake of the Trump election is to put the ‘SS’ symbol on Supergirl’s chest and make Eobard into Dr. Mengele, to recycle imagery of actual Nazis from WW2 and put a pink triangle on a gay man’s chest in 2017…. they don’t get it. Whatever their intent and regardless of where they’re coming from, they don’t fucking get it.

Sorry, I’m getting worked up. My point is that if they wanted to make a statement about things today, there were a million better ways to do it, and I could list at least 5 off the top of my head right now. But those would be more controversial, harder to pitch and sell, and not as stylized or easy to promote. So stylish Nazis is what we got. And that’s just… such a problem, including literally the ‘stylish’ part of that sentence.

Nazism and white supremacy are inherently performative. Nazis were all about the #aesthetic. They aligned themselves with famous designers for their uniforms. They had the villainous dramatic flair, and they used it to their advantage. Having that in the crossover might be historically accurate, but it falls right into what the Nazis themselves do: make themselves look good to amp up this notion that they are good. 

And a problem with depicting them this way (instead of making them pathetic, vacuous, hate-filled to the point of self-defeat, self-important to the point of being ultimately silly and sad, punching down their notions of grandeur) is that actual Nazis like it. They like being portrayed as sexy, powerful, and cool. And depictions like that help them with their recruiting. “Look, isn’t Overgirl sexy? She’s like our mascot. They know that when we take back this country from foreigner invaders, this is how it’s gonna look.” Because they say when, not if, and they recruit by framing themselves as the victim in a struggle against invaders and usurpers. Make no mistake, white supremacy is a victim complex of untold proportions and having attractive, fan-favorited characters championing their cause helps spread their message.

But let’s get back to the crossover’s broader sociological message and stop talking about actual modern-day Nazis for a sec.

Nazis have been the villains in DCTV before. On Legends in 1942, and with Damien Darhk (again, actual literal Nazi, and again, the narrative has made him “entertaining” in the eyes of some viewers and keeps bringing him back over and over as a villain?). Nazis have also been the villain in pop culture for half a century. Indiana Jones. Star Wars comes to mind in particular. They’re not shy about the fact that their villains are explicitly based on Nazis and the Nazi regime. Which is working out so well considering how many people are mooning over Kylo Ren when he’s a genocidal fascist who murdered his own father (”but it’s okay because he’s just misunderstood, and by that I mean I find the actor attractive and I, too, have anger and angst so I identify with him, this Nazi”). At least in Star Wars it’s figurative, I guess?

And the thing about these narratives, the problem with these narratives, is that they fictionalize Nazis. This isn’t necessarily a reason to vehemently boycott these media or rail against them, but just, as a general phenomenon that’s happened over time, many people - and by this I mostly mean privileged people and people who don’t feel particularly targeted by Nazism - tend to think of Nazis as this cinematic enemy. This prop, this simple narrative device. This way of commenting on the past more than the present, or alluding to something about the present as a mere metaphor, and that metaphor tends to go over the heads of half the viewers anyway because most people aren’t taught to critically evaluate media except in high school english classes that no one takes seriously.

And fictionalized Nazis don’t look like real Nazis in the 21st century. So when real Nazis do gather, many people don’t realize just how bad that is, just how violent their coming together is going to be, and just why need to fight back against such demonstrations and against letting Nazis have any space or voice in our society. It’s like that “this is fine” dog cartoon where he doesn’t see an issue until the house burns around him? Making Nazis into a fictional narrative device can make it harder for many people to actually see the flames burning around them, because they’ve been taught that “real” fires look different than the ones already starting to burn their house down.

Finally, I’ll just come back to point number 1: this is hurting people. In a way that going to 1942 and letting Mick Rory roast Nazis didn’t. And as privileged individuals, we have a responsibility to call out and call attention to the issues in this media and to amplify others’ voices. But as human beings more generally? We also owe a duty of compassion to others. 

Sure, there are a lot of people who aren’t hurt by this, but there are a lot who are. Who are shaking and sick to their stomachs and afraid for what’s happening in 2017 and how the tides of the world are turning. Who worry that this crossover is just another example of how casual people are about Nazism and who worry about everything I’ve listed here in detail as the broader effects of media like this and its current framing, even if they don’t have the language to articulate it all in one place like this. People who feel these effects, and feel the target on their back.

We owe those people some compassion, yeah? So when they say it hurts, we don’t need to say: why? That can come later. Our first question should instead be: how can I help?

[valeriemperez]

There were a lot of nice moments in the crossover, but there were also a lot of really really ugly ones. (Hello, Oliver pointing a gun at Earth-X Felicity's head. Also the general humanization of the dopplegangers.) I don't know who thought N*zis was a good storyline, but I'm glad it's over.

The Earth-X Felicity moment was godawful for me on so many levels. Overall, even the parts of the crossover that tried to treat Nazis like the real-life threat they are also failed to connect the dots to present-day antisemitism and antiblackness, which is a massive fail. Not to mention that fact that our heroes didn’t even think about going back to Earth-X to save a planet full of oppressed people from genocidal racists. Stein died, but the purpose of the Nazis was to make Felicity realize she wanted to marry Oliver? Almost everything about that aspect of the crossover was garbage, because you either hit hard and make it an in-depth moral lesson (which you have no business doing on supposed family shows) or you just make it a fictionalized evil empire and don’t shove paraphernalia in everyone’s faces for 4 hours.

But yes, there were a lot of really nice character beats.

@eboniangelvibez said:

At least Oliver+Fefe admitted they couldn’t do better than Barry+Iris’ wedding vows!!

LOL, it’s the little things.

 I take it back, i thought there was going to be a re-do wedding and it didnt happen. Then olicity had the nerve to join in on their moment…

They’re getting the whole wedding next week, so I don’t get why they had to get married in the crossover.

I always hated the double-wedding idea, but I at least figured that it would’ve been at least kind of pre-planned, like they would’ve collectively agreed before Diggle showed up that they would get married with Barry and Iris. I didn’t expect them to have such little respect that Felicity would actually propose to Oliver right when Diggle was about to pronounce B&I man and wife (especially after vehemently saying she wouldn’t marry Oliver earlier on).

That’s what I figured too. I hate being wrong lmao.

Do you think we might still get a WA honeymoon? I thought we might with the hint that CP dropped but then B & I were talking about mai tai & beaches & now I’m thinking this is what CP was alluding to, just talking about it. What do you think?

No, I think Candice was alluding to her and Grant’s lines in their Legends scene.

Felicity was really unbearable in this crossover. How obnoxious can one character be? I feel bad for EBR having to play her. I thought she was going to redeem herself when she and Iris were working together (which was great) but then she sells Supergirl out to save herself and interrupts the Westallen wedding remix because she suddenly decided to marry the guy she’s been lukewarm to all season and whose doppelgänger tried to kill her like an hour ago. This whole thing was so gross for Olicity.

I had no issue with Felicity this crossover other than in the final scene. I don’t think she sold SG out, and I think she and Iris behaved admirably for most of it. But I do think at this point we have to assume that it’s part of her and Oliver’s characters to just make things about themselves lol.

I cannot believe that Iris & Caitlin ended up having more screentime in the other episodes of the crossover than in the actual flash episode. Honestly I found it strange in general that on most of the other shows episodes they generally focused on their characters during their hour, but with the flash we barely saw any of their mains (including Barry.) I know it’s partially because that’s when the climax was built up, but there had to be a better way to give the flash cast some focus.

Yeah, poor Barry was basically wallpaper the whole crossover, except for when he was trying to marry Iris. I am glad Iris got to do a little rescuing in The Flash episode, but it was only like 3 minutes’ worth. And poor Caitlin only got 20 seconds, Lord.

In the crossover Leo & Ray kissed, Alex & Sara kissed & ended up in bed, Olicity kissed & talked all about each other but WA got, in 4 hours, 2 small kisses & a lot of hugs. It’s just hard for me not to make comparisons between WA & other couples when the differences in their intimacy level is glaring. Do you think b/c WA is an interracial couple that the CW or WB is hesitant to give them more intimacy for fear of backlash?

I honestly don’t think it’s that. Aside from OF hogging screentime, they and WA both got two kisses. Plus, homosexual pairings also draw backlash.

What a bait and switch! They used WA to hype up the crossover only to sideline/downplay them in favor of focusing on others. Everyone was there for THEIR wedding, it was THEIR momentous occasion, but it felt like they took a backseat the entire crossover. Oh, and Oliver and Felicity are without a doubt the most selfish, self-absorbed couple on TV. WA deserved so much more.

Yup. Flash was out there doing charity work and has nothing to show for it. But that’s what charity is, so bless them for being so gracious.

For a crossover that was supposed to be largely centred around the Westallen wedding, there was A LOT of focus on O/F. Not even just the non-proposal/double wedding BS or even the fact that they overall had more scenes than WA, but I was also watching some scenes again and literally every conversation between Oliver/Barry or Iris/Felicity (or all of them together) always somehow ended up being about O/F’s relationship. I’m all for WA being the gold standard, but I feel like they were just used.

They absolutely were used. The crossover was all about Oliver (and by extension Felicity), with Kara getting a lot of screen time too.