#moiraine moiraine my very favorite moiraine

[wearethekat]

ROTATING HER IN MY MIND AGAIN (moiraine sedai).

her secret GAY AFFAIR with her boss

her continent spanning morally dubious PLANS and SCHEMES (murder those youths)

her queerplatonic SWORN BODYGUARD.

her HIGHLY PUBLIC oath of banishment to her gay affair boss (who's also the wizard pope)

her DEPRESSION ARC (suicidally cut off from her magic)

her queerplatonic DIVORCE ARC (they were never equals. THEY WERE NEVER EQUALS. she's lied to him this whole time)

screaming crying throwing up. THEY WERE NEVER EQUALS. moiraine sedai lives in my head RENT FREE.

[puddinginthemix]

My favorite thing about the Wheel of Time TV series is the way it lets middle-aged women be desirable, desiring, and hot. Moiraine and Siuan have very visible wrinkles! Alanna Sedai is played by a 41-year-old actress, and she's living her best life as the soft domme of a MFM throuple! Especially in high fantasy, I feel like this sort of thing is really unusual and I love it.

[asha-mage]

Since it's my birthday my friends got me the amazing gift of 'watching the Wheel of Time show while occasionally stopping to discuss/let me loose my mind' for which I am incredibly grateful. A few random observations from this time through, as I attempted to view it through the lens of the entirely WoT uninitiated (as my friends are)-

The group shots, where the camera passes from one of the Emond's Field 5 to another, do this clever trick where Rand is never actually standing on his own. He's always standing beside or behind someone in one of these shots, so the camera doesn't actually have to cut or pan away from someone else to get to him. This serves the purpose of highlighting him in contrast to his friends, but also to subtlety downplay his presence to the audience, and build up to the Dragon reveal in episode 7 very effectively.

The cinematography in general is so exceedingly rich and delicious- the stark white of the Whitecloak camp contrasted with the bloody reality of their actions. The bright primary colors used to make the Aes Sedai visually pop and feel magical and strange, even as they are dressed (for the most part) practically for their traveling (a complaint I had about the Witcher, aside from everything being brown and grey all the time, is that the mages show up to battles dressed in ballroom dresses instead of you know, clothing that would make sense). The subtle use of lighting and camera angle to create a sense of vast isolation of Shadar Logoth, fear and danger in the Ways, and cramp sweltering heat in the Blight.

Moiraine's opening narration in episode 1 is essentially a summary of the information we get from one of the epigraphs at the ending of the Eye of the World prologue, to whit:

"And the Shadow fell upon the land, and the world was riven, stone from stone. The oceans fled and the mountains where swallowed up. and the nations where scattered to the eight corners of the world. The moon was blood and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the shadow, and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon." - Aleth nin Tearin alta Camora, The Breaking of the World, author unknown, the Fourth Age "The world is broken. Many many years ago men who where born with great power attempted to cage darkness itself. The arrogance. When they failed, the seas boiled, mountains where swallowed up, cities burned, and the women of the Aes Sedai where left to pick up the pieces. These women remembered one thing above all else, the man who brought the Breaking of the World. And him, they. named Dragon." - Moiraine

This makes me suspect their was an earlier version of the script that actually used the epigraph (maybe even both of them). I have mixed on feeling on this, as the epigraphs are one of my favorite artistic choices of Jordan's and really help emphasize the history and depth of his world, but I think filtering it through Moiriane and making it slightly less opaque was a smart choice to convey the information to the audience. I also think this works on a character level as well- here is Moiraine's understanding of this information, shaped by her biases.

Every re-watch also makes me more and more comfortable in my 'the show is a future/past turning of the wheel from the books, the broad events and truths being the same, but seen in one of those endless variations we hear about' interpretation of the series. The heart of the story and characters is the same, and the broad strokes and framework are the same, but it's in the details where things emerge as different. This interpretation has the benefit of fitting really really well with the meta-narrative stuff Jordan always liked to pull, and in freeing I think the show expectations of being a one-to-one recreation.

That said I defiantly felt the cracks in the final two episodes as a result of the Covid shutter and loosing Barney Harris more strongly this time- some of that being that this is my first re watching of season 1 since I've seen season 2. You can practically see the things they wanted/planned to do that had to re-worked because of circumstances beyond their control. Mat's absence in the group argument scene (and the 'I am so tired of you two fighting over her' line that was clearly meant to be Mat's), as well as the lack of bigger/more cohesive battle scene in Tarwin's Gap. You can also tell they hadn't quite figured out how they where going to re-work season 2 yet given that the ending for season 1 had to be changed last minute (for example, their is no reason for Moiraine to just outright admit that she released Lan's bond unless they hadn't yet decided that was where their arc was going yet).

I think the show does an exceedingly good job of structuring it's exposition to the un-intiatited, trying to stagger it so that audience is largely learning new things in pace with the characters. I know people where frustrated that things like the War of Power have yet to come up in earnest even in the Latra and Lews scene, but I think the slow and steady reveal of things matches both the core idea of 'their is always more you don't know', and trying not to overwhelm the audience. My friends had no trouble following what was going and picking up the bigger implications/subtext that underpins a lot of information. 'But why did the Dragon try to cage the Dark One? It doesn't seem like it was that simple.' came up a few times especially.

The detail that what jump-starts Perrin's wolf brother connection is having his wound healed/cleaned by the wolves in that scene from episode 2 is so incredibly clever, and a good twist on the traditional 'werewolf bite' mythology.

I love the deliberate choice to incorporate so many random ruins and remnants of things in the background of shots. Not just the 'dilapidated stone buildings' that the characters camp in, but things like the trio of carved faces that Egwene and Perrin run past while fleeing the Whitecloaks, or the boundary stones Mat and Rand pass on the road, or even just the small carvings and pillars scattered about the cave where they are holding Logain. It all helps to make you feel that ancientness, that brokenness of this world more effectively.

The reoccurring use of the Dragon's Fang to symbolize violence and destruction: the Trollocs using it as a scare tactics, it appearing in the blood in the pool after Nynaeve kills the Trolloc, being burned into Siuan's ruined childhood home....and the way that contrasts with it's use in the finale episode, when we see it whole and unbroken in the seal/yin yang symbol for the first time was really really clever. One of my friends actually gasped out loud and went 'oh' at the first shot of the whole seal when it clicked.

The show does an exceedingly good job of maintaining that core idea of the series that it's about our relationship to violence- violence never being casual or simple or easy, but always raw, hard and bloody and a little bit ugly. EVen subtle things like the way the show depicts Moraine hurling stones at the Trollocs with uncomfortable frankness, trying to literalize what in most fantasy media would be an abstract. Take it from I cast stone 2, to I inflict horrible blunt force trauma on another creature. And of course everything re: Perrin and his ax.

I have more thoughts, but I think I'll save some of them for after we watch season 1, because they relate strongly to stuff from there.

[mswyrr]

wheel of time 1x06: romance and narrative economy

I think this episode is a great example of how to convey a complex and powerful romance in a limited amount of time. True, the episode is just over an hour long, but not even all that time is focused on the romance and yet it hits beautifully.

Their first move is that, since the audience has been introduced to Moiraine, one half of this grand love affair, the story begins with Siuan's origin story - we begin with the home where she grew up, we begin by learning the innermost rooms of her heart.

We see the last time she ever felt wholly safe and loved and free to be herself:

The day we see with her father is also the day Siuan begins to come of age, leaving this place of innocence and total safety - because of how magic is handled in this society, there are limited spaces for her to embrace her power, have the opportunity to learn, and be accepted as a grown woman.

Notable that, in her parting, her father uses these words to connect them, to create a bridge between this home and the life she will build:

Look at me. You're gonna do great things. And if any of them bastards tries to shame you, you show them who you are. Siuan Sanche. Daughter of the river. Clever as a pike. Strong as the tides.

Her father is giving a vision of herself--and the knowledge that he loves her deeply--to her that she can hold close for the rest of her life.

Then we see Moiraine and Siuan as mature women in the Aes Sedai order that has formed their adult selves. We witness the power and burden Siuan carries as the Amyrlin Seat, the masks these lovers must wear to pursue the larger goals they share - but that very sharing separates them. It requires them in different places; it requires that they conceal who they are to each other as well as their true inner selves.

It's after this display of politics and power that we learn that, despite all of this, Siuan and Moiraine trust their inner selves to each other.

Before meeting her lover, Moiraine strips herself down to her own girlish state - no formal, restrictive outfits, no ornate hair, no carefully chosen jewels. Just her.

It's in this exposed state that she approaches the magical portal

And everything comes together! Moiraine walks into Siuan's innermost heart, her childhood home. This is the secret place they share, the place they built together (presumably?) with their magic and where they love each other. Siuan can still be safe and free with someone - she has a family still, and it is Moiraine.

In this place of safety there are echoes of their lives outside, however:

Moiraine: Am I forgiven, Mother?

Siuan: I hate it when you call me that. So much for the Amyrlin Seat remaining neutral, without favorites…. No life. No love of one's own. Nothing but the Seat.

Moiraine: When have we ever followed the rules?

And, of course, there's the deliciousness of Moiraine's "on your knees" and how it interplays with Siuan's earlier command, as the Amyrlin Seat, for Moiraine to kneel before her. In the Tower, one must obey the Seat or face punishment; in love, one obeys because one wishes to, an even stronger compulsion than threats of violence one might argue lol

This play of identities and truths--innermost heart and their political identities, their status and power--culminates in Moiraine turning her political punishment, framed as a command to swear and oath of obedience to the Amyrlin Seat into a personal oath--a wedding vow, if you will--to Siuan herself.

Siuan: You are exiled from this Tower. To ensure your acceptance of this penance, you will swear fealty to the judgment of this Seat on the sacred Oath Rod. Swear your oath, Moiraine Sedai… before your sisters, in this… sacred Hall. The One Power renders it unbreakable and eternally binding. By the Light and my hope of salvation and rebirth… I, Moiraine Sedai, swear to obey the judgment of the Amyrlin Seat and never return till she calls me home, or may the Creator's face turn from me and darkness consume my soul.

Moiraine: By the Light and the hope of my salvation… and rebirth… I, Moiraine Sedai, do swear to honor and obey Siuan Sanche… Daughter of the River… clever as a pike… strong as the tides… and never return until she calls me home. Or may my Creator's face turn from me… and darkness consume my soul.

Moiraine is the only one giving these "wedding vows" and yet we know Siuan commits to her just as much - because Siuan shared her father's parting words--the ones she has kept close to her heart, the core inner self she has protected with those words--with Moiraine alone. By sharing those words Siuan committed to Moraine and now Moiraine is using them to commit herself to Siuan.

Moiraine touches Siuan's true, innermost heart even in this moment of her exile and them being parted by fate for a long period of time. In this moment of farewell she reflects back to Siuan the little girl she was, the woman she has grown into with that love at her heart, the love she shares with Moiraine. She reflects back their shared purpose and love for each other, even though Siuan has to be the one to command this exile.

And once again, tears mark the separation from home/heart and the blessing of giving someone a vision of themselves they can carry with them while you are parted.

It's really gorgeous work all around - but it starts with the writing, which is a master class in depicting a complex romance in a limited period of time.

[markantonys]

My Mom Reacts To: wheel of time season 2 episodes 1-4 (season 1)

episode 1

"if i had to carry water all that way for a bath, i'd get a smaller bathtub" you know what? that is a very fair point. just get a smaller tub, moiraine!

mom, #1 Lan Stan: so, he doesn't have any powers, right? except cunning and strength and loyalty of course me: of course

mom: so liandrin wants nynaeve to become red because she........doesn't want her to have a warder? me doing a great aes sedai truth-telling: nynaeve is really powerful so liandrin wants to recruit her for her own team

my dad predicted moiraine was scamming bayle domon and loved it when it was revealed that she was. as always, not too much commentary from him because he remains silent and seems to not be paying attention for most of the time, only to randomly come out with a completely correct prediction or read on a scene.

"i don't think it's true that neat and tidy things can't be worthwhile 🙄" clearly my mom subscribes more to the Egwene School Of Thought than to the Alanna School Of Thought

lan to moiraine after she is Mean to him: make dinner yourself mom: GOOD FOR YOU

when lan brings her the plate later and puts it on top of the maps: "what if he gets greasy food all over her maps?"

"ugh i hate dark scenes where i can't see anything" [scary fade appears] "okay maybe it's good that i can't see"

episode 2

my mom got all confused about rand's dream of him killing his friends and wondered at first if it was real, please pray for her when tel'aran'rhiod is introduced later

"HE'S BALD??????" all of us when we first saw s2 rand's new look djkfgjh

"they must like him here if he gets free food" my boy, beloved wherever he goes :')

she wasn't particularly fond of mat last season, but he's gotten quite a few laughs so far this season! (notably the moment when we ALL fell in love with New Mat, when he was miming liandrin locking the door)

she gave an annoyed TUH! at elayne dissing egwene's room, but didn't comment further, possibly because i'd just told her 20 seconds earlier that elayne was my favorite character and she didn't want to offend me jdkfgh

she was like "wait, is she blue or green???" during a scene where alanna was wearing a slightly-darker-than-normal green outfit, so i think it was definitely a good call by the show to dress aes sedai in their ajah colors always. hard to keep track otherwise!

after moiraine had her hand on her knife when verin revealed she knew about the dragon: "what was she gonna do?? just stab her right in front of all the others??? that's ridiculous!" djkfjg points were made! poor moiraine just kinda panicked and lost all her braincells for a moment there.

my mom was a randgwene shipper last season so i thought she was gonna be pissed about rand hooking up with a strange new woman whilst egwene mourns his death, but she has not said a single word about that situation yet! i did once catch her reading lanfear's wiki article which she'd gotten onto after reading lan's because "i just want to know what happens to him and i'm not going to read all those books" so maybe she retained some info from lanfear's article that made her suspect something fishy with selene?

she recognized min from s1 right away and hastened to add her to her handwritten character list, when other characters needed a couple scenes to get that honor, and i remember she laughed a lot at min's lines last season and she did again today. guys, if my mom becomes a min stan, i may never recover lmao (i'm mostly kidding, show!min has done nothing wrong and is cool. MOSTLY kidding.)

re: the list, i told her she wasn't allowed to google and print out a list of characters because she would see spoilers, only to accidentally spoil her myself last season by instinctively writing liandrin's name down in the "bad guys" column and making her ask "wait, so she's ACTUALLY a villain, not just mean??", rip (but i played it off as "oh she's just unfriendly to moiraine so that's why i put her there" so we shall see whether or not she ends up being surprised by the black ajah reveal)

when min was saying how she sees glimpses of the pattern, my mom made a connection to perrin seeing the past earlier, which i thought was very interesting! (since we hadn't yet learned that what he saw was actually a sending from the wolves.) min's viewings and wolfbrothers are the two major magical powers that have nothing to do with the one power, and it always minorly bugged me that they don't Fit In to the rest of the magic system (despite my apparently-hypocritical mocking of people who get hung up on lore rules etc haha), so i just thought it was neat to think of them in conjunction with each other.

mom, shocked and dismayed: MAT'S GOING TO KILL RAND???????? me: [vibrating with glee over The Great Cauthor Stabbening]

when nynaeve is taken to the arches: "so is she getting a promotion?"

there was some line during the moiraine-lan divorce that got a big offended gasp from our #1 Lan Stan, but i forget which one it was (it wasn't "we were never equals" it was an earlier one)

my dad just laughed when they first showed suroth and her redonkulus getup jkjfg the correct reaction to the pomp and ceremony of seanchan high blood

episode 3

when the aes sedai were saying nynaeve was ready to take the test my mom was like "NO SHE ISN'T!!!!" and was pressed about them rushing her into it

during the bandit attack in the test: "boy, i wouldn't want to live in this world!"

when nynaeve left the tower my mom was like "is this what happens in the books?!" and i couldn't reveal yet that it was still part of the test so i just instinctively said "you'll see" which is my response to everything, and she was like "no i won't, i'm not reading all these books" lmao

my dad during the version of mashiara playing during the lanaeve reunion: why is "somewhere over the rainbow" playing

sheriam: she wasn't ready mom: THAT'S WHAT I SAID!!!!!!!!!!!

she was genuinely very upset for a moment because she thought nynaeve was dead, but i think she then guessed pretty quickly that It Ain't Over Yet

scene transition from nynaeve being left in the arches over to the seanchan: "we're going from bad to worse!"

i was dithering over uno's impending death because i didn't want to spoil them but i thought my mom might want a trigger warning, and thankfully my dad went "that horn looks like it's in a dangerous spot" when they first made uno kneel, so i was all clear to say "yeah this is about to get gory" lmao

my dad wondered if suroth was the dark one which fascinated me! i think everyday negroes had the same thought, iirc. i guess it IS the logical conclusion when you know that ishy is the dark one's right-hand man and in this scene we see him being suroth's right-hand man!

my mom thought elayne might be evil or a spy! how could she! i guess she isn't accustomed to wheel of time strangers just being friendly without an ulterior motive djkfg i didn't outright say her theory was wrong because i'm not about to be a booksplainer, but i'm sure i was so visibly baffled at the idea of elayne being evil that i shot down the theory nonetheless haha

when liandrin goes to visit mat again: "how does she have time for all this? she has her sick son, she has mat, and she has whatever else she does at the tower"

when liandrin blames mat for nynaeve's death: "this lady is CRAZY!!"

mat's "is that an 'i'm here to murder you' stare or a 'light i never realized how handsome you are' stare" line was a big hit! love to see my boy getting some appreciation in this house

...............which he promptly squandered when he a) initially left his cell without freeing min too, and b) did not go comfort egwene. but i pointed out that liandrin's been psychologically tormenting him for months into thinking his friends are better off without him, because i couldn't bear to see them judge my boy!

"it's like we're in 18th century france!" was the first thing out of my mom's mouth when they went to the cairhienin party, i'm sure the costume designers would be thrilled!

mom: how did this lady from the poor district get them into a fancy party? and how could she afford these clothes? 🤨 me: 🤷👀

when logain pours out the wine: "AFTER ALL RAND'S HARD WORK TO GET IT!!"

why did my dad laugh when the inn was on fire jdkfg maybe he just likes to see rand have a bad time

mom: jeez, maybe rand shouldn't stay in other people's houses anymore me: i'm sure rand's thinking the same thing

mom at the end of the test: it's so sad that they keep getting glimpses of the nice lives they could've had 😔

episode 4

mom 2 seconds before the camera reveals who the visitor is: is her little sister moiraine? [camera shows moiraine] mom: I GUESSED SOMETHING FOR ONCE

"it's pretty rude to show up to someone's house and then say 'i don't have time to hang out with you'!"

selene: the fire wasn't your fault rand mom: well it kinda was actually

there was some moment where my dad referred to "sneezing and burning down an inn, or whatever he did" and it killed me, i wish i could remember the context bc it was even funnier in context

"i speak with the amyrlin every time i open my mouth" was also a hit! as was perrin asking if he would turn into a wolf and elyas saying "don't be stupid"

mom when moiraine waltzes into the foregate dressed to the nines: i thought she wanted to keep a low profile

just earlier that day we'd been bemoaning the lack of pockets in women's clothing, as one does, so my mom was like "[delighted] now THAT'S a pocket!" when moiraine fit a whole-ass knife into the pocket of her fancy dress. WOT costumers understand the importance of giving girls pockets! lanfear's outfits have a lot too

my dad said "she seems like a bad guy" about selene during the mountaintop scene, he been knew! but he ended up falling asleep and missing the reveal that he was right

meanwhile, mom: "i'm just waiting for a monster to crawl up that cliff and get them"

when alanna & co go through lan's bags to get the poem: "aww, i thought they were his friends! 😔"

mom: too bad moiraine won't just ask her sister about rand, she talked to him at the party! anvaere: so if you want to know where that redheaded boy is, you'll have to ask me very nicely over tea mom: [just as smug as anvaere]

when ishy shows up at min's room: "how is he EVERYWHERE????"

she didn't seem TOO surprised when liandrin attacked the girls, and she clocked that liandrin was working for ishy after this scene with min (or rather, she asked me if that was the case and i said "you'll see")

she let out the fondest chuckle when rand was like "[choking back tears] i'm going to leave now, thank you" he is BABY YOUR HONOR!!!

as the Lanfear Reveal started my mom said "i just knew she was evil" so that must be why she was so silent on the relationship and so un-judgmental of rand, she must've clocked selene's Bad Vibes from the start! or else she retained something from reading lanfear's wiki article a while back lmao

even so, she went "OH MY GOSH!!!!" and clapped her hands over her mouth in shock when moiraine slit lanfear's throat, which i think is one of her biggest reactions to anything in either season so far! the initial stabbing, zero reaction, but the followup throat-slitting, freakout.

the "i'm a monster too" line + Undead Lanfear Moment has her CONVINCED that forsaken are some kind of creatures or zombies, i'm trying to explain they're just humans who are really powerful and evil haha

at the final shot of lanfear: "i'm going to have nightmares! i'll have to go read my murder mystery to calm down before bed." duality of woman

[dropoff99]

Reminder for those in their first read through:

Jordan is a firm believer in an unreliable narrator. I’ve been seeing some absolutely WILD takes on on certain characters that I can only assume are from people that haven’t hit later books yet. Most characters have a number of things they won’t admit to themselves, even within their POVs. Some are thinly veiled so you identify them early, others are not and are often a product of that character not knowing themselves or others very well yet. Also when Jordan felt a character had a wrong impression of someone, he felt that it shouldn’t be corrected unless they saw direct evidence to contradict their views on other characters. And while characters certainly miscommunicate It’s not always because Jordan wanted to stall the plot, he just legitimately wanted flaws in the way they thought and understood what was going on in the world.

My POV reliability ranking is below (yes there are spoilers in regards to large character beats but no plot) ranking on how intellectually honest/reliable WoT characters are within their POVs. Note it doesn’t mean I think the people at the top are always right, just that you can trust their internal narrative as being consistent with how they really feel and their read on others is somewhat accurate. Additionally I only ranked the EF5 and some other big characters. If they aren’t on here it has nothing to do with how reliable I believe they are, just that I didn’t rank them.

One last thing: I legitimately love the tool of an unreliable POV character. It allows you to adds depth, intrigue, and unpredictability. It is not a coincidence that the bottom 3 of this list are my favorite characters of the series.

1 Egwene - controversial I know but her time with Gawyn/Wise Ones reveal this the most. Additionally she has a self-awareness about her dynamic with the rest of the cast. Rand and Nynaeve really stick out in this regard. she figures out their dynamic with her a lot quicker than they do. She is generally a step ahead of others and accurately portrays what she sees and experiences IMO.

2 Thom/Lan - their POVs reveal their motivations pretty clearly and they also are very consistent across the series. Additionally their analysis of other characters is really helpful due to general knowledge of the world. I put them behind Egwene because Jordan is very stingy with their POVs.

3 Min - she is the most openly conflicted of the main cast (especially regarding Rand). But I can’t put her reliability as high as the others because Jordan intentionally obscured her interpretations of her visions for obvious reasons and that is such a big part of her character that it drops her.

4 Perrin - as internally honest as they come (especially his guilt) outside of his love interests but this is a HUGE blind spot for him.

5 Rand - despite what some would say on this topic, it’s not so much that he lies to himself, but there are specific and intentional inconsistencies that are plot related. Additionally, the pressure Rand is under definitely clouds his judgement throughout the story but this is usually apparent to the reader.

6 Moiraine - her internal conflict about her schemes/plans as well as her habit of obscuring the truth places her outside of the top 5 but I generally think her POVs are incredibly revealing about what she thinks/feels when you do get them.

7 Elayne - I know you might be thinking… how is she this low? But I believe she lies to herself (even if thinly veiled) on many occasions, especially how she feels regarding her family and close relationships.

8 Mat - the guy is genuinely just a compulsive liar. He lies to himself and others routinely throughout the story. The amount of times he says “this is the last time I (insert any particular thing he does regularly)” even within his POV is astounding. But he does this in such a predictable rhythm that you get used to it very quickly. Also his read on other people within the story is at times so outlandish that you can’t believe he really thinks what his internal dialogue is saying.

9 Aviendha - absolute lunatic internally. I love her to death but what she truly believes is often hidden early on in her POVs and because she comes from such a unique culture Jordan intentionally makes her evaluation of any given circumstance a little confusing. The only reason I would rank her above Nynaeve is because there are legitimate plot mysteries that Jordan did not want to unveil with her early on making her less reliable, which isn’t the same thing as what happens with Nynaeve.

10 Nynaeve - I really don’t want to say much about this because I believe her POV is actually done brilliantly in a lot of ways, it just makes for a frustrating read before you understand her. But to put it simply she is not honest with herself generally and you have to rely on Jordan’s prose and her literal actions to know how she truly feels.

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

But Caitie, why are you so pressed about bad faith criticism from book fans about the wheel of time show? Great question I’m glad you asked.

From what I have observed book fans who are saying that it’s a bad adaptation and not worth watching have criticisms that usually boil down to one or all of these three objections.

1. They’re spending time in the show on characters who aren’t the ta’veren boys/Rand

2. Any changes have been made at all in order to adapt the story to film

3. There are too many queer characters and actors of color

All three of these talking points became a common refrain during season one, largely driven by the hilariously un-self aware manpilled alt-right shitheads in the /r/whitecloaks subreddit which got shut down for harassing other subreddits in 2022. It should be obvious that a lot of the motivation there was a misogynistic and racist misreading of a deliberately feminist and multicultural book series. If you think RJ would find this diverse show full of badass and well fleshed out women a poor adaptation of his work you are kidding yourself.

And regarding the other less obviously white supremacist complaints: Rand is not the only important character. Anyone who has read past like book two should be well aware that every main character’s point of view is important to the overall narrative. There are only 8 seasons in which to get through all of those main characters’ arcs. Of course they are starting them all now. Are the boys getting less screen time than they get pov chapters early in the books? Sure. This is necessary because once again, the ta’veren boys are Not the only characters that matter. I don’t know why people are so surprised that ALL of the main characters of a book series with over a dozen recurring pov characters are going to have character arcs.

And again if you’re just mad that it’s more queer and polyamorous. Fuck off.

There are valid criticisms to be made about this show if you engage with the show in good faith and judge it by its own merit instead of just comparing it scene by scene to the books. For instance I think it’s fairly obvious that the first season suffered as a result of late stage rewrites made to account for a shortened episode count, and Perrin’s arc in particular was off to a rough start.

But in season 2 I think they are doing a lot of things right, and the change of speeding up his acceptance of his wolfkin powers is a Very good one I think.

And the rest of this season rules to be totally honest. All of the Moiraine and Lan stuff is Great and really sets up for later events so well. And I am enjoying Everything about how the show is handling the Forsaken so far. Episode 4 was my favorite yet, Lanfear is fucking Perfect. This season is absolutely nailing character beats for all the most important characters, and doing excellent character work around the major themes of the book series and setting up for future key events. Every scene with any of the Aes Sedai is my favorite. And some things have been markedly improved by the show over the books. I cannot get over how good the team up of Mat and Min is so far. And the normalization of polyamory in the culture of randland is Brilliant for the long term series.

If this show gets cancelled because so many of the book fans refuse to even try to engage with it for what it is instead of what isn’t, it will be a goddamn tragedy. And if you’re just really disappointed that you can’t as easily skip the scenes with the girls the way you skipped the POV chapters of all the women when reading the books then please take a big step back and ask yourself if unchecked misogyny is a good look in 2023.

[differentluminaryllama]

Books and a Cup of Tea (part 8): The Wheel of Time: The Eye of the World by Robert Jordan

Warning: fangirling ahead. Lots of fangirling. I'm serious. This is your last chance to turn around.

Oh, you're still here? Well, then -

When I started reading the Wheel of Time, it took me a little time to get into the writing style. Everything felt slow and a little bit lengthy at first, but in the end, now, after having finished the book yesterday... Wow. What first felt like a peculiar, drawn out writing style that hinged too much on descriptions of - well, everything... quickly became my favorite part of the book. Jordan describes a lot, and very detailed too - you will find yourself mentally standing in eight different common rooms of inns while reading this book alone, and if you ever questioned how to best describe clothing and dresses? This book is for you, my friend. Jordan describes everything in so much detail - the cities, the wilderness, the people - without ever making it boring. You simply feel as if you were a fly on the wall accompanying this bunch from the Two Rivers all the way to Fal Dara.

Next: the characters. They were all so lifelike. Well, Moiraine is my favorite, no questions asked. She's a queen. I love her.

But what's most refreshing about the Emond's Fielders is that they are realistically afraid. Instead of just accepting their fate, and welcoming it, they are full of doubts and flaws. I mean, Rand is afraid even after he traveled basically across half the continent and goes into the Blight to get to the Eye of the World. He doesn't say: "oh, I'm important to the Pattern, I got this". He's afraid - even 729 pages in, when he's almost at the finish line of a months long journey, he's afraid.

Light help me, I've never been so afraid. I don't want to go any further. No further!

from: The Wheel of Time: The Eye of the World - Chapter 49: The Dark One Stirs, p. 729

He doesn't adapt as quickly as other main characters do in current fantasy novels, which is refreshing.

I mean, just compare this to The Atlas Six, where at least three main characters have a god complex after the first two books.

They are so many interesting characters and lore and story to this world Jordan created. It's all amazing.

I did not see a single plot twist coming.

So, in a nutshell, EotW is above all else one thing: Glorious.

[anghraine]

fanny-price-defense-squad replied to this post:

@anghraine who was it???

Oh!! I was so foggy when I posted the "which Austen character mainly contributed to my dissertation" poll that I actually completely forgot it existed. The people actually did vote, if barely, for the right choice—Mary Crawford!

(Darcy was right behind her in the poll but barely mentioned in the dissertation, while Henry Crawford—who only got 1.5% of the vote—also figured pretty significantly.)

Now I'm looking at other results of my own polls over the last year, as well:

The "Why is Elrohir's name in Gondorian rather than Elvish Sindarin" poll result: a strong vote for "actually it's Númenórean Sindarin" (the assumption I've always made myself, but it was interesting to think about other possibilities, since Tolkien never explained it).

The "Pick a fave from my Tolkien faves from each major text" poll result: Faramir narrowly beat out Gandalf with everyone else far behind (the closest was Lúthien).

The "pick a fave from my faves from five fandoms" poll result: Faramir again, closely beating out Luke Skywalker and Fitzwilliam Darcy (Moiraine and Gwen Thackeray never had a chance).

The "best dead guy from my dissertation" poll result: Jonathan Swift just squeaked past Olaudah Equiano!

The two women's wrongs polls: the first poll result was Clytemnestra, the second Azula.

The "what's your headcanon for the unexplained reasons the Stewards were not in the line of succession despite being descendants of Anárion" poll: by a huge margin, actually, the people chose "they were formally removed from the succession in exchange for the powers of the Stewardship."

The "pick your favorite video game/series" poll result: a very unsurprising and easy win for the Mass Effect trilogy (with BG3 the only thing even remotely near).

The "why do those of you who also like fics about ostensibly cis male characters in canon being genderbent to women" poll result: it's interesting to imagine how the character and plot would be affected, slightly beating out the option for "I neither like nor dislike the fics as a genre, I just like the good ones."

The "vote between my top Spotify Wrapped songs" poll results: "Landslide" by Fleetwood Mac slightly beat out Florence + The Machine's "King" and Queen's "Who Wants to Live Forever" (both exactly tied in close second place).

The "what is the best non-canon FemShep pairing" poll result: Shepard/Jack won pretty handily!

The "which of my ~controversial headcanons do you like best" poll result: Elizabeth and Darcy have separate bedrooms and this is good for their marriage.

The "which non-canon Darcy ship is best" poll result: Darcy/Anne Elliot, which mildly surprised me (I like it but am not sure they'd get around to talking to each other), beating out the world conquest pairing of Darcy/Emma.

The "which of my selected Queen songs is the most purely beautiful in your opinion" poll result: "Under Pressure" (with David Bowie), narrowly beating out "The Show Must Go On."

The "what would be the most awesome class/subclass for my Seldarine drow in BG3" poll result: Paladin of Vengeance! (I actually did make her and am just getting back into playing BG3 again after dissertation hell derailed her avenging of injustices.)

The "who played your favorite Marguerite St. Just" poll result: Jane Seymour, easily.

[deeplyridiculouslyinlove]

Ranking Wheel of Time Characters and their Narrative Arcs

I've been thinking about a post like this since probably book 8, so here we go. My ranking of the arcs of the major characters in the Wheel of Time book series, and separately my ranking of those actual characters (because they are not the same!!)

Arcs:

Nynaeve

I could say a literally never-ending amount of things about my darling Nynaeve. I think she has the most internal development of any character in the series, which makes her feel especially human to me. Getting to watch her learn that her anger is rooted in fear and a lack of control and to confront that was so powerful and it felt very real. Watching her grow from hating Moiraine to standing beside Moiraine at the end with Rand made me so emotional. And speaking of Rand, it was so nice to have one of the original Emonds Fielders with him in the later books to witness his descent--I think it added depth and believability both to her character and her position having cared for the younger ones when they were kids, and also really helped humanize Rand. While I tend to think Nynaeve's relationship with Lan is really random since they barely speak to each other when they fall over their skis in love with one another (apparently), by the end of the books I'd accepted it and it also made me emotional when she went behind Lan's back to find all the other Malkieris to ride into battle with him. I just feel really proud of Nynaeve and want the world for her and I'm glad that she was given a real growth arc the series.

2. Mat

So I grew from thinking Mat was a bit annoying and childish, to finding him fine as a character but listening to his chapters at 1.6 speed because I didn't care about carousing at inns or random bands of fighters, to having his chapters be my favorite. And I think that's because Mat really evolves throughout the series in a way that still feels very believable and true to the same person/character. He's is written so well as a character learning lessons while staying true to the core of who he was in the first book. I felt a lot of pride for Mat when he rescued Moiraine, and although I saw some chatter by folks on the internet that they'd be fine if the Daughter of the Nine Moons thing doesn't happen in the show, I actually really liked his relationship with Tuon because it was one of the few relationships we saw actually build and develop slowly. Despite being a fated relationship, they also spend time together and develop a rapport. It was a fated marriage not fated love, and I thought that worked much better than the fated loves of Rand’s polycule. I also liked that Mat and Tuan's relationship had some ambiguity until the end; although they clearly cared for one another, we never saw them come to really understand one another, which felt authentic to the situation they were in. Mat is also one of the very few men in these books who actually recognizes that there are things he doesn't know and doesn't need to be involved in, and I appreciate that from a male character in what ultimately remains a pretty patriarchal world despite RJ's structural changes to society (I can back up this statement about patriarchy, but that is a whole separate post). I think this is likely at least in part because Mat doesn't engage with the Power, which is the part of the books that most upholds patriarchal stereotypes and values. Now I'm rambling about Mat more than his arc, but I think he both has a lot of depth and grows internally in significant ways and I really appreciate it!

3. Aviendha

I love Aviendha as a character, and I think her arc is another really good example of slow internal growth. We see get to see her go from Maiden to Wise One to the person who discovers the new message hidden in Rhuidian and what that means for her entire people. We see her struggle with what it means to have left the Waste and what she feels is right for the future. And all of this without that many point-of-view chapters compared to other characters! Aviendha's relationship with Rand also feels the most authentic to me of any of his three women. We actually get to see their dynamic build and see them spending time together, it’s not just like “oh I’m fated to love him!” They also spend time apart and Aviendha doesn't spend that time pining over him, but rather focused on her own goals and the bigger picture. From the narrative, I get why they like each other and also why they are a good match for each other. I don't love her getting injured in the way she does at the Last Battle because I'm not really sure what purpose it serves (I guess it's the ultimate sacrifice for an Aiel to not be able to walk or fight?), but if my biggest qualm with her arc is only at the very end, I'll still rank it quite high.

4. Egwene

When I started reading the books and talking to friends about the gender dynamics in them and the female characters, so many of them mentioned how Egwene gets one of the best arcs in the series. And while I don't disagree with that (I have her ranked in the top 5 still!), I think the fact that Egwene is not a ta'veren in the series really hurts her arc in the later books. Once she's Amyrlin, and particularly once she goes back to the tower as Amyrlin, I feel like she starts to get plot armor that detracts from her actual development. All she has to do is talk and people are completely swayed to her side in a way that I think sort of stunts her internal growth. I loved her time with the Wise Ones in the Waste and with the Aiel and I think it really showcased her eagerness and dedication in a way I related to, and it made her growth in Tel'aran'rhiod and becoming the Amyrlin feel really deserved. Her ending was tragic and powerful and somehow it both doesn't feel like what she deserved but also feels like it lives up to Egwene and I feel really conflicted about it!! I'm was very meh on the Gawyn stuff, since I don't think it really added anything and he's a bit of a downer of a character--honestly, Egwene is the character in the books I most wish had just not had to have a romantic relationship. That said, unlike a lot of other relationships in the seires, we at least see Egwene's feelings for Gawyn develop over time in the dream world so it wasn't as frustrating for me as some other characters' romantic arcs.

5. Rand

For me Rand's and Egwene's arcs are really really close in terms of how much I like them, but I think there are things missing in the execution of Rand's arc that make it a bit lower for me--had it been done slightly better (from my perspective) I think it would have edged out Egwene. I really *want* to empathize with Rand starting around book 11 when his PTSD and the weight of everything else he’s carrying really starts to impact him. But because he spent the first five books whining about how everyone is trying to use him as a puppet (and particularly suspecting literally any woman with power before he had been given any reason to do so), his later arc doesn’t lead well into him then being someone you’re supposed to empathize with in my opinion. Particularly because his whole arc in the later books is about love and compassion, but I don't feel like we get that from him in the early books? I find it very confusing. I think for that progression to work we really needed a part of his arc where trusting and/or showing compassion to someone leads to serious harm, then he turns hard, and then he remembers the need for compassion. Maybe I’ve just forgotten it but I really can’t think of anything at all like that first step in the books? He distrusts the people who eventually hurt him? And things generally work out for him, even though he’s struggling internally? Anyway, this rating is higher than it otherwise would be because of how much I *want* it to work because having a chosen one who so clearly struggles with the weight that destiny places on him is interesting and the madness angle is also interesting to me. Oh also, I think Rand should have actually died at the end and that not doing so makes his arc more boring, sorryyyyy.

6. Faile

Faile is another character I really wanted more for. I hated the weird dynamics in her relationship with Perrin, but I could have liked them together without the physical abuse and if the power dynamics had felt more consensual and didn't have this whole element of her expecting Perrin to behave towards her in a way that he clearly didn't want to. Her being the lady to his lord was cute! I also liked Faile's progression from being a Hunter of the Horn to guarding the horn at the end. I like how self suffiicient she was and how she was able to find a way to combine what she was born for/raised for and what her parents wanted for her (being a noblewoman) with what she wanted (adventure and love).

7. Perrin

I have very few real issues with Perrin's arc and I’m sure other people liked it a lot. My ranking it relatively low is much more that it bored me and I left the series unsure of what it was trying to say than it being a bad arc or doing Perrin a disservice. I hated Perrin's relationship with Faile, and I hated that I hated it because (as discussed above) I think it had a lot of potential. Like Mat, I appreciated that Perrin did not think he needed to be involved in everything nor that he was always right, and I found his growth from boy to man quite believable and that it took place over the course of the books in a way that was well-constructed. I found the whole question of hammer vs axe and his contemplation of the Way of the Leaf to be really interesting! But I'm not sure I fully grasped the resolution of that debate and what the entire focus on it in the narrative was trying to say. And I feel the same about his struggle with the wolf side of him. Is the point just that violence is sometimes needed? And/or that it eats us up from inside? (But also that we have to accept that?)

8. Elayne

I want to do my best to separate Elayne from her arc, since I personally don't love her character for reasons purely of personal preference. I think the reasons her arc specifically is lower for me is that I feel like we don't get to see her growing into being a queen, since one of her primary character traits is that she is already so royal when they all meet her. I think the decision to have her win her crown in Caemlyn with a battle where they just snuck up behind the other forces was a weak one -- why couldn't they have defeated these people before if it was that easy? I also don't love that she gets no time to like learn how to be a queen before she is more focused on becoming a mother. The whole pregnancy arc doesn't sit quite right with me. She sleeps with Rand literally once and it's basically just to get pregnant? But this just builds off of what I dislike about how she just decides she's in love with Rand one day because she is fated to be. Give me the scene where they bond over war strategy and thinking like rulers like six books earlier instead of in the last book! It also seems like there's no reason she and Aviendha couldn't have become friends before realizing they both liked Rand instead of because they are forced into proximity by that fact, and I also feel like she and Rand should have spent actual time together before falling for each other--to my mind the way her part of the polycule goes down weakens Elayne's relationships with both Aviendha and Rand, which otherwise could have been interesting.

9. Moiraine

I have far too much to say about my baby Moiraine. I'm including New Spring in these arcs, and reading that made me want to reread the whole series in a new light. I love her. I love her I love her I love her. And to me New Spring makes her arc in the main series both more powerful and more tragic. Seeing in New Spring just how determined she is and also how much self-doubt she carries and how much her Aes Sedai serenity of the later books is disguising inner turmoil is so rewarding. I wish we had gotten to see so so much more of it. I know that she has to be mysterious to our main characters, but I don't think she has to be mysterious to the readers, particularly once we are more than a few books into a fourteen book series. To that end, I know why she had to go away (she is the Merlin character after all!), but I wish she had come back a few book sooner and we could have seen literally any interiority about reckoning with her time in the Tower of Ghenjei. The Moiraine in New Spring would have been going CRAZY both leading up to knowing she had to go through that archway and while stuck in the tower--even if she was being tortured, which she also would have withstood for a while. The fact that she couldn't take action that it was such a passive way of supporting Rand and his mission would have killed her, but also she would have been so very resolute, and I wish we could have seen that more. Instead, she just like shows up right before the last battle, speaks her piece, goes to help Rand (presumably thinking she's going to die??), and we see none of it from her POV! She never sees Siuan again and because we can't see into her mind that's just like...chill?? And obviously I hate the book pairing her with Thom, particularly her *offering to give up her abilities* for him. I see what it adds for his character arc, but what does it add for hers? Plus there is literally no reason to remove her powers and give her that powerful ter'angreal instead. That's just RJ's obsession with disempowering women and I despise it.

10. Siuan

Oh Siuan. My other baby Siuan. I'm only ranking her arc this high because I think it had a lot of potential to be telling an interesting story, but I think her ending was so horrible I can barely think about it. There was so much potential here to be telling a story about how you can have power and influence and be important even if you are less powerful and that the strength to manipulate and steamroll people is not the only way to make a difference, but I feel like this would have been a much more interesting message if she was the only (or one of the few) powerful women to get knocked down like this rather than it happening to literally every woman with power at the beginning of the series in one way or another. I particularly hated that with Siuan they did this knocking her down a peg in a way that made her younger and pretty for an old man (when she was only like 40 in the first place I might add!)--and she also started acting younger in a way that felt strange. I liked her teaching Egwene, but why couldn't she have some of the teacher vibes Moiraine did? And the way she dies with no one noticing or caring and it making basically no difference to the plot is so horrible. And, I'm sorry, it's not what the character deserved. Nor was it in line with the message I thought her arc was trying to send about the ability to have an impact no matter how unpowerful in traditional ways. And it happens because she doesn't stay with a man?!?! No one even knows she mattered after she was deposed and it’s all so unfair.

11. Lan

I feel like Lan doesn't really grow that much as a character since he spends the entire series basically just expecting to die in various ways at different times. Even with New Spring I don't feel like we get a good sense of what his character is meant to be doing besides impacting other characters in the series. I am not against his relationship with Nynaeve, but I don't think the books flesh it out very well. And I'm still mad he ends the series mad at Moiraine--where is their New Spring dynamic of him vibing with her even when he's annoyed with her? Obviously his leading the Malkieri into the blight really hit me in the feels and was a great culmination of his plight, however, which is why I still think the arc deserves an honorable mention.

12. Thom

Thom's arc is basically just from hating Aes Sedai to marrying Moiraine, and getting continually paired with weirdly young women. I guess he learns to overcome prejudice based on his nephew's death? I do like the role he plays with Rand and Mat and their respective character development as they grow up from the Two Rivers to adventurers, but I'm not sure that's really his arc or development. But for that I'm giving him a higher ranking than his Moiraine arc alone deserves.

13. Tuan

I don't think think Tuan gets that much of an arc. While she becomes Empress, she doesn't seem to grow or change her mind on things during the series, and mostly she puts aside things she doesn't like very much with intentions of dealing with them later. BUT I like how her and Mat challenge each other and engage with each other, and I think the internal growth is somewhat implied or is something that would have happened if we had had more time with her. I wish the entire Seanchan plot was more resolved at series end, but that's not specific to Tuan.

14. Loial

This may be controversial, but I don't like Loial's arc very much! I don't think he needed to get married! I'm glad he seems happy about it in the end, but it feels unnecessary. I loved him adventuring and writing his book and being sort of childlike in a really endearing way, but everything with his mom and with Erith took him out of the story for a long time and seemed to be sending the message that ultimately everyone wants to settle down. Let him explore and write his book and be a late bloomer! Idk.

15. Min

I am ranking Min even below the characters that only have a fraction of an arc because I loved Min so much in the earlier books and I hate the way the series treated her subsequently. When we first meet her she is determined to be fully herself, despite a talent that makes her stand out and a personality inclined against confrontation. She's brave and interesting! I hated watching her become more ladylike for Rand, and for a while essentially being absolutely nothing more than a lover and comfort for Rand. I really wish we had had more lingering payoff for the many books that Min was reading and trying to parse out what the prophecies meant, but it felt like Cadsuane was basically like "yes I agree" and then...it was no longer about Min having figured it out?

And just for fun, here would be my list of these same characters from ones I like most to ones I like least (although I like them all tbh!!)

Characters:

Moiraine (main trilogy + new spring)

Nynaeve

Egwene

Moiraine (main trilogy only)

Aviendha

Mat

Siuan (main trilogy AND main trilogy + new spring)

Loial

Rand

Lan (main trilogy + new spring)

Perrin

Lan (main trilogy only)

Faile

Elayne

Tuan

Thom

[moiraineology]

Hi ❤️ I was wondering, how did you like New Spring if you've finished reading it?

Personally I think it was a great choice to read it even before getting into the Eye of the World and I enjoyed all the details about Moiraine, Siuan and Lan's backgrounds/relationships. It made reading EotW even a little easier to me. The only complain I have is that it was too short 🥲

BTW do you have any favorite parts that you'd like to see as flashbacks on the show?! I would love to get a scene of Moiraine and Lan meeting for the first time or their first bonding!

Oh no! I am so, so sorry for not replying sooner. I really didn't mean to leave you hanging. I was excited to receive this question, and then neglected to respond for...two weeks? Oh boy. I apologize.

I did truly love New Spring. Ripped through it in a couple of days over my reading break (a highlight!). I actually totally agree with you re: reading order. I'm not particularly stringent about that in any case, but I say, if you most ardently adore enjoy a character, just dive in and read everything ever directly written about them :D

It has now been a while since I read it, but I think that most of all I appreciated these very flawed, smart, and funny characters it brought to life. I've mentioned this before in a post, but I'll say it again as many times as possible: I love (love! LOVE) Mo's social ineptitude. Or at least that she treats most social interactions like a dramatic performance, where she has to put on a certain face based on her training and her upbringing. I find the part of the book where she learns about power structures in the Blue Ajah, and the fact that she picks up on this complicated dance of deference and authority that someone (Eadyth?) must then explain verbally, to be incredibly moving. Who among us hasn't felt the temperature of an intricate web of social relations, not natural but cultural (or maybe a combination of the two, where difference is felt and ostracized accordingly, sometimes in a very insidious and subtle way) and been utterly confused, and wished that someone would just explain what the fuck is going on between people? All of this says a lot about her background: culture, class, and also her particular brand of neurosis. I find it very endearing and more relatable than I care to admit (outside of this space). Yeah, also I think she's autistic. I'm nd as all hell and I think so, so it must be true.

Also, I love that we get mean Mo. Impatient Mo. Stubborn, obstinate, and immature Mo. She really did grow up with Lan. I think that's gorgeous. These two are actually kids when they meet, and then it's just them for 20 years on the road, and they learn to be PEOPLE, and to not communicate, and to fulfil the roles that are required of them/all that their duty really entails/how to navigate the politics of their world. Just the two of them. I would kill for flashbacks to times after they initially bonded, and how they were able to grow so close after a rather sticky beginning. I think the answer lies in the empathy that is inherent in a bond. Lan sees Mo as a stubborn child, but when he finally feels the fear and doubt and uncertainty she struggles with every day... a child doesn't normally feel those things. She struggles with the weight of the responsibility that has suddenly been thrust upon her, a responsibility that, to her great credit, she approaches bravely and willingly. Mo, too, can't stand Lan at first (I personally think she is jealous of his gravitas and his calm: we know she wants to be that way, but can't yet. Not until she grows up a little more), but she will soon meet the man who has been raised from birth to be the king of a nation that no longer exists. And what that does to a person. And exactly why Lan must be the way that he is (and how much she can learn from him). Also, I actually cried laughing and just gleefully clapped and giggled when Mo was pranking Lan and her inner voice was just...so conniving and sneaky and clever. "He would meet the wasps in perfect health." I genuinely think it's the funniest line ever written (perhaps that says more about my dumb sense of humour than RJ's comedic ability, but to his credit, he is really fucking funny sometimes).

And I can't end my little rant without talking about Siuan. I so appreciated the chance to get to know this character, who is introduced so beautifully to us in the show at the height of her power. As someone who is more than a little bossy, strategic, and clever, and who is very accustomed to being in control of a room. I love seeing what that looks like in a young person. She has the confidence, personality, and work ethic, but not yet the experience to be an effective leader. However, she leads Moiraine. And Moiraine likes it and she lets her. Again, relatable. More than I care to admit outside of this space. I also am fascinated by the cultural and class differences between the two women. The qualities they share (curiosity, drive, ambition, and so, so much integrity) are almost outweighed by those differences (Siuan is measured where Mo is impulsive, Siuan is frugal where Mo spends lavishly, Siuan is irreverent and unconstrained by the expectations of her rank, while Mo is and has always been bound by them). It's cool to see how they change one another. And the ways in which they remain unchanged into adulthood. Right up until we meet them together in the show. Also I think it's really fucking cute that Moiraine wanted to sugar momma Siuan so bad that she tried to buy her a horse. Who?? among us?? hasn't lived that fantasy?? No? Just me? (I would love to sugar momma my baby girl, if only I had the means).

Will you tell me what you thought about it, too? I would love to hear all of your thoughts. What would you like to see explored in the show?

Thank you so much for your thoughtful asks. I love answering them, even when I take too long.

[nalebifrie]

Things I noticed on my rewatch: s2 ep2

Rand taking care of Errol is very lovely every time I am seeing it

and this:

More on Rand. He is part of the community in the forgate. He gets his breakfast thrown to him both the times we see him on his way to work in this episode. I like that he has connections besides Lanfear.

And I made my screen as bright as possible during this rewatch and he is crying when they talk about what the relationship means to them (I brightened the shot):

Liandrin and the crimsonthorn, when she is bying the sweetcakes I thought she takes coins out of her pocket but she actually takes the crimsonthorn bottle out again and kind of plays around with the chain! (It is better to see in movement but I don't know how to make gifs)

speaking of Liandrin:

Mat has very great lines in this episode!

"You should at least knock, I might have been naked!"

this conversation is the right amount of awkward:

Elayne mentions her fear of having to live somewhere secluded twice and we learn that she is clever and it sets up her arc for the season very good imo

I'll make a separate post about Moiraine and Lan in this episode because she is my favorite character and I have more thoughts than can't fit this post

[butterflydm]

wot rewatch 1x7: the dark along the ways

spoilers for s1 of WoT and through Knife of Dreams in the books; minor spoilers for one of the s2 character blurbs

Aaaaah, my angel Tigraine is here to kick ass and have a baby. This cold open floored when when I first saw it and it still floors me. It's amazing. I'm looking forward to more Maiden action in s2 so much. Not just the fighting here, but the emotion -- how frustrated she is that they won't just let her have her baby in peace, how she finally has a moment to herself and then this new potential threat shows up and we hang in that moment. Fantastic episode opener and it really makes me excited about what we might get in s2 for the cold opens.

So... given that she left Andor to chase a prophecy to save the world and has found herself on Dragonmount about to give birth... Tigraine could probably guess who her kid was going to be at this point, I feel like? She was very well educated, first in Andor and then in the White Tower, so I'm sure she would have known the Prophecies (maybe she even figured out when she learned that the female warrior society of the Aiel was called the Maidens of the Spear?)

The Emond's Field people want to get Mat but Moiraine must refuse because he's literally in recasting limbo right now. I love how Rand just instantly lost all trust in Moiraine the second she refuses to open the Waygate. She won him to her side by helping Mat, then immediately lost him once she stopped. Rand (and Nynaeve) are so protective & defensive over Mat in this episode and I really love it.

Of course, Rand is now probably also about, like 75% sure that he's actually the Dragon and so there's no need to worry about Mat anyway. But Moiraine is absolutely not sure who the Dragon is and it very well could be Mat (imo if she wasn't worried that Mat was a potential channeler, it would be pointless to send the Red Ajah after him).

Rand's little despairing looks back at the closed Waygate and his instant defense of Mat against anyone who says a word against him (even Egwene): catnip to a newly-minted Cauthor shipper.

Yeah, Mat is 100% Moiraine's least favorite child -- she 'knows' what choice he would make, she says (the wrong one). So, there are actually two different ways that the show could go with Mat -- Moiraine could be either right or wrong that Mat would make the wrong/evil choice and it depends on how they've decided to handle the Seanchan. Because if they follow the same storyline that the books did, Mat does essentially choose to embrace evil along that path (even if Jordan never admits it) when he decides that he's okay being married to an unremorseful and unwilling-to-change slaver. If Tuon stays the same way that she is in the books, then Moiraine was right about Mat. If Mat and Tuon's storyline gets changed/updated to be less... awful, then Moiraine will have been wrong about Mat.

Lan tries to tease Nynaeve to cheer her up but fails, so he tries to reassure her instead, telling her that Mat is safer where they left him. It's a sweet little moment.

Both Egwene and Rand are more open in this moment than they were in episode 2 and are able to share a snuggle as they sleep (but Egwene also checks in with Rand first this time and waits for him to essentially nonverbally give her a 'yes' before snuggling in). Rand is also a lot less raw about the breakup and they're hovering in a weird 'maybe we're not broken up after all' space.

People's worst fears clawing at them is a lot more informative kind of existential terror than just gore-whispers.

Honestly, given how on-edge everyone is put by the Black Wind, it would more surprising if it didn't lead to tensions and arguments. That was a rough experience for them all.

Lots of Lan backstory in this episode! His title, people from his past, etc.

Poor Moiraine looks so exhausted. Pretty much now until the end of the season. This is also when Moiraine has the message sent to the Red Ajah about Mat, which Lan is not around to hear, I note.

Perrin engages in some Fainspotting!

Oh, I notice that when Min serves drinks to the ta'veren, she keeps her eyes down. To avoid seeing all the viewings maybe? And I'm pleased to say that show!Min remains likable on rewatch, despite my bad experience with book!Min in my reread! She actually is a world-weary and well-traveled woman who has been through Too Much and is Tired instead of feeling like a tweenager cosplaying as one. And Moiraine literally has to blackmail her into sharing her viewings about the EF5.

And reading the new s2 summary about Min also tells us why Moiraine threatening her with exposure is enough to make her crack -- she was forced to be a carnival act! Yikes, Min's aunts!

Also that does look like the same baby from Rand's vision in the next episode, at least to me, so I think that's what she was seeing.

The EF5 all confronting Moiraine. I do wonder if it was the whispers of the Ways that made her decide to open up to them about how the non-Dragons will die when the Dragon faces the Dark One. And though the group does fracture into an argument after this discussion, they do present a united front against Moiraine here.

This argument also does a good job in laying down Egwene's philosophy and her reasons for wanting to do this. And we get another passionate defense of Mat from Rand.

It's fascinating how quickly Nynaeve jumps the conclusion that Rand and Perrin are 'fighting over' Egwene (something that both Rand and Egwene find initially baffling). I wonder how long Nynaeve has been expecting this to come up as an issue between them, that she goes there so quickly. Back in ep1, she sends Perrin away from Egwene's celebration to spend time with his wife and then in this episode, she notices Perrin noticing Egwene and Rand snuggling together. She is on "Perrin->Egwene HIGH ALERT" at all times and it's just kinda fascinating. If she'd just let them argue, I sincerely doubt that Perrin would ever have let anything slip.

Perrin's staring at Rand's mouth while saying "only woman I ever loved was my wife" moment. With a single shot, Perrin comes across as infinitely less heterosexual than his book counterpart.

We get some more good Lan content in his scenes with Moiraine and then Nynaeve. It's nice to get to see a piece of Lan's culture and for him to share it with Nynaeve. All the scenes that he has with both of them in this episode are really good. Lan comparing his devotion to Moiraine to Nynaeve's protectiveness over the Two Rivers' kids; I like it.

And this scene with Egwene and Rand is his last stab at denial. He wants to pretend that he can still be Egwene's husband/Warder. But if he doesn't give up on his denial, he might be condemning Egwene, Perrin, & Nynaeve to a painful death. What Egwene says here (that she will stand by Rand if he's the Dragon) is also related to why he goes off on his own and pretends to be dead imo -- he knows his friends wouldn't abandon him and so he has to abandon them for their safety.

And we reach the point where everything is at a crisis point and Rand can't keep denying every strange thing that's been building up since the night the Trollocs attacked.

This scene with Rand and Min is very good. Again, show!Min is doing a lot better than book!Min. Also, Min, I'm holding you to that "three beautiful women" viewing.

Aah, the kindness of how the show did Rand's birth really gets to me. The story is so much... colder in the books. That show!Tigraine gets to have a last moment of connection before she dies, and gets some assurance that her kid will be taken care of. It was an incredibly compassionate change to make.

lol, the poor awkwardness of the three Emond's Fielders (before they realize that Rand has disappeared with Moiraine).

Moiraine's thoughts, probably: "shit, it's one of the boys. Well... at least it's not Mat".

[asha-mage]

DELICIOUS LEWS THERIN AND ISHY SCENE

"I know how much you hate being alive. But I don't want to do this again." WOOF

Fascinating that this was apparently a targeted strike at the different Forsaken, probably picking them off before the strike against The Pit of Doom.

INTRO RETURNS AW YEAH

A part of me was kinda hoping for a new season 2 one with the Heroes of the Horn, but Spoilers probably meant it couldn;t be. Maybe next time. (Also the Aes Sedai one slaps anyways)

I will NEVER be able to forgive them for making so many hateable men so god damn hot, Bornhold topping the list. And by 'never be able to forgive' I mean 'never be able to thank enough'. (see also: Masema)

28 feels like to small a number of damane for the Seanchan to have in Falme, but I suppose it's a rough estimate and also not including those still in 'training'

The Watches Over the Waves have always been one of those loose threads that never really got touched on. Glad their getting a glancing shot here.

"Prophecies are just the lies of long dead witches" intereeeesting. Not a shocking take for the Whitecloaks to have.

AW YEAH THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE ROAD TRIP EVER

Dang Lanfear cold blooded still.

Perrin and Avi! Aw yeah again!

......Interesting. What is that mist I wonder?

I continue to be so happy they nailed the Aiel so right.

Man Lanfear and Ishamael really sound like they ARE trying to seduce Rand to be their third.

FUCK that's clever (re: The Whitecloak smoke trick)

Their changing the framing of the Egwene rescue a bit, but their keeping Nynaeve's half of it pretty the same, so I'm hoping it will play out like in the books. Still one of my favorite scenes in the series.

Of course Ishamael steps out of that room and IMMEDIATELY knows that Lanfear is trying to play him

Mat! And Padan Fain! Surprised we aren't getting more of a reaction to Padan Fain is A Darkfriend from Mat, but that is a reveal that's pretty old to the audience at this point.

Moiraine and Lan! Platonic marriage re-established!

I like that they gave this speech to Loial re: heroes of a new age. It's very fitting for his character.

Offff. At least it's white cloaks so Egwene isn't going to have nearly as much guilt for slaughtering them.

FUCK

RANDA AL'THOR YOU ARE THE FUNnIEST PERSON ON THE PLANET

on the one hand i've always loved the Turak vs Rand duel, on the other....yeah probably does not have the sword trainining needed to do that this time round.

By Turak! At least you got to take Suroth down a peg this time!

Glad they kept the ritual suicide of the So'jhin re: Turak's death. It's one of those moments for hitting home just how fucked the Seanchan culture is.

.....Interesting choice to cut Ingtar's confession, especially after making a point to show the Shienar falcon early in the season. By Ingtar!

Oh hey Domon! You took Moiraine's advice I see.

'Take them to the deepest part of the ocean and dump them' Pffffffft. Peak Lanfear

MAY MAKING A NAGINTA WITH THE DAGGER IS SO A?UAHGAUSDUGHASUDGHASDGAUHSDGASUHFADSUHFASDFUH?ASDFASDFASDFAS

[It was at this point that I lost all coherence and stopped being able to liveblog effectively so here are some of my assorted post credits thoughts]

MOIRAINE AND LAN KILLING IT ONCE MORE

I have conflicted feelings about Egwene actually killing Renna, related mostly to the scene from the books being so important to the under laying themes of justice and fate, but I also can't deny that with it's shifted framing, it makes complete sense for the characters, and it heightens the ongoing theme of 'The Forsaken where to Lews what the EF5 where to Rand'.

I also have conflicted feelings about Nynaeve not being the one to heal Rand's wound, but I understand the logic of the choice, even if I don't agree with it.

On the other hand it is BRILLIANT AND INCREDIBLY SMART CHOICE to have Bornhold Senior be the one to kill Hopper, and Perrin to kill him in revenge. It's going to make the Two Rivers stuff A Lot More. It will also make Perrin's conviction to give himself up to the Whitecloaks make a lot more sense.

MAT BEING A HERO OF THE HORN IS INTERESTING BECAUSE MAT SPECIFICALLY WASN'T IN THE BOOKS- HE REFUSED REPEATEDLY THROUGH MANY LIVES. This lends credence to the 'future turning of the wheel' credence of the show which I've always favored anyways.

The scene where all these pivotal character moments are happening while Mat blows the horn, all these different arcs turning on their head, is SO FUCKING BRILLIANT

ALSO CONGRATS ON THE PROMOTION TO HERO OF THE HORN UNO

They don't specifically name drop any heroes in the scene, and I'll have to go back with X Ray to see if any are named, but THEIR SURE IS A BLONDE ARCHER LADY IN THAT SHOW SO FOR NOW HIGH BIRGITTE

ALSO HIGH ARTUR HAWKWING I ASSUME on the one hand it feels weird for your line to be directed at Mat instead of Rand. On the other your part in this scene originally was really just to drive home beyond any shadow of doubt, any ability of Rand to deny it to himself for a reason beyond stubbornness, that he was the Dragon. Rand's already accepted that here so you're not strictly speaking necessary for that, but still.

The shot where everyone is standing united against Ishamael is SO FUCKING GOOD.

Also by Ishamael! We'll see you in a few seasons in your newer, hotter, twinkier body!

(I don't envy the actor that has to live up to Fares Fares, it's going to be no easy task).

ALSO ENTER: THE OTHER FORSAKEN, dun dun dun!

Moggy fucking with Lanfear is so fucking good. FEED IT TO ME SLOWLY WITH GRAPES

GIRL SET HER TRAP AND WAITED FOR LANFEAR TO WALK INTO IT JUST SO SHE COULD GET THE UPPER HAND AND GLOAT IN AN OVERWHELMINGLY LESBIAN WAY WHAT AN ICON

Oh man I am going to rewatch and binge this entire season like FORTY TIMES.

[mass-convergence]

I’ll be honest with you - in season 1 of WOT:

I didn’t exactly love what I’m calling the Main Character Squad (Rand, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Nynaeve). Like don’t get me wrong - I didn’t hate them. I just thought they were … idk … boring? And this may warrant a rewatch, I’ll admit I was not in the best place emotionally while watching the season. But I just felt like they were kind of flat with maybe the exception being Mat and Nynaeve who I was kinda like 👀 what’s going on. Mat had that whole corrupted by darkness thing going on with him and Nynaeve was just a fucking badass and seemed highly motivated to protect her friends from the get go. But idk Rand felt like he was just kinda …… there? Same with Egwene and Perrin.

(This is ending up turning into an essay so I’m gonna put shit below a cut)

They were cool characters and I obviously was rooting for them to get reunited and stuff but I was like “eh???” Until maybe the very end when things started falling in place and the plot became a lot more sticky (as my friend describes plots that suddenly have a lot of competing motivations all coming together)

So I think my main issue was with their writing rather then the characters themselves. I’m coming at this as a complete outsider to WoT - never read the books and even if I did, I believe an adaptation must be able to stand on its own. And what I think happened was that season 1 like *had* to catch everyone up on the lore of the world, why Moiraine was so hellbent on finding the Dragon, what the hell the Aes Sedai were, etc. etc.

And it may have somewhat put characterization on the backburner until the end when they were like “we caught you up to speed now here’s the plot”. I guess they felt passive, like the plot was just happening to them instead of them driving the plot. Like we got hints of stuff - I was confused about what was going on with Perrin, then really intrigued towards the end when the wolves attacked the White Cloaks camp. And then of course the whole Eye of the World thing and Ishamael being released and him cutting Moiraine off from the One Power.

But idk, most of that season just fell flat to me.

The second season however, whooooo boy did I get fucking invested in those crazy kids. I was like “why can’t Nynaeve deliberately channel? [Insert Spiderverse “can’t do it on command” meme here]”, “oh fuck how is Egwene going to get out of this and also fuck you Renna”, “Rand please don’t go crazy”, “Perrin is like spiritually connected to wolves??? I need to know more about how that is a thing”, “Mat I swear to god you better not be evil because I’m like rooting for you”.

And of course I was really invested in the supporting characters - like Moiraine’s journey, Liandrin’s betrayal, Lanfear’s … everything (god I love her).

And oh god was it almost empowering to see their arcs play out.

- Rand struggling with the fact that he is indeed the Dragon Reborn and that male channelers tend to go batshit and kill everyone they love.

- Perrin becoming more familiar with his wolf-powers (I forgot what they were called or if they even had a name I’m sorry) … and being caught between his humanity and his wolf side. RIP Hopper, I’m glad you were avenged almost immediately.

- Egwene first off like: struggling with the fact that Nynaeve was kind of distant (because Nynaeve was obviously dealing with her own issues) but sticking with her friend. And then getting fucking captured and enslaved and like thrown into one of the most disempowering positions one can get into… and she fucking still held her own and never gave in. God I think her arc is like my favorite one this season. Fuck you Renna I’m glad you fucking got what you deserved.

- Mat dealing with the aftermath of the dagger and just having this darkness inside of him. He had been pushed down and kicked all his life, people viewed him as a loser, and he had that attitude towards himself as well. I felt like a connection to him because yeah, that boy is just a touch depressed, and as someone who’s dealt with their own mental health issues and ADHD absolutely making me feel like I’m constantly failing everyone including myself …….. good lord did his arc make me feel some feelings. Like he took that darkness - namely the dagger - and he used it to fight his way out. And then he’s a fucking hero of the horn. That is unironically super fucking inspiring to me.

- Nynaeve not being able to channel on command, being almost afraid of the power she can wield (I think that’s the angle they’re going for at least - though it also does seem to be very attached to her emotions). Out of all the main character squad: I liked her the most in the first season. She was very much motivated to protect her friends. Like I do see her kind of as the mother figure of the group (and not in a derisive way - like she will absolutely fuck a person up if they hurt her friends as we saw in season 2 with that sul’dam), the “heart” in the five man band. Like *almost* like Katara in a way and I really loved Katara so there you go.

- honorable mention to Moiraine because she thought that she had to handle this shit on her own. She had to figure out what Ishamael and the Dark One were planning while protecting Rand and also dealing with the aftershocks of her being cut off from the One Power. Something that Verin very much analogized to being assaulted or raped. And Moiraine just kept trucking, carrying the burden of what she felt like her own responsibilities like she carried those fucking buckets up the hill. The season was her realizing she could rely on others and she didn’t have to be as closed off as she was being. And oh my god once she got the One Power back she (a woman who was already plenty fucking badass during this entire season) like went to fucking S-tier levels of badass. God I fucking love her.

Basically: I’m saying that I loved season 2 very very much and I’m now rooting for these crazy kids to fuck shit up and save the world.

Also I love every single woman in this show who’s not Renna or the Seanchan because fuck those slavery loving assholes.

[markantonys]

i'm thinking about nynaeve's line to egwene in the testing vision about how egwene will be a better "servant of all" than nynaeve ever could be. i love that moment so much! because it plays into one of my very favorite Themes from the books: the difference between heroes who focus on the greater good, sometimes at the expense of individuals (egwene, rand, moiraine, elayne) and heroes who focus on individuals, sometimes at the expense of the greater good (nynaeve, perrin, mat). and neither is inherently better or worse than the other, it's just two different ways of looking at the world! for each character, we see moments where their outlook is a strength as well as moments where it's a weakness/flaw.

i saw someone say that nynaeve undersells herself in that line because throughout the show we've seen HER be a servant of all. and that's very true............IF we define "all" as "the two rivers." nynaeve would die & kill for Her People, and for any other individuals she comes across who need her help, but she doesn't care so much about broader causes or ideals. her arc is really unique because it's an inverse leadership arc, i.e. she starts off in a leadership position but then as the story progresses, she realizes that she is not suited to leadership on the huge scale that's needed for the last battle and steps aside to let people like egwene and rand, who ARE suited to it, take up that leadership.

(if you will allow me a bit of #gawynposting, gawyn actually has a very similar arc in this respect: he starts off expecting to become first prince of the sword, but then when he gets his first real taste of large-scale leadership as the leader of the younglings, he's miserable. he doesn't care about the younglings' cause, he just wants to protect his specific loved ones, elayne & egwene, because at heart he is an Individuals Guy, not a Big Picture Guy. and so in the end he rejects his role as first prince and dedicates himself to protecting one specific person, egwene, as her warder. but the tragedy of his character is that even after all this he still can't shake the My Duty Is To The Big Picture conditioning that's been drilled into him since childhood, and thus focusing exclusively on protecting one single person during the last battle makes him feel selfish & guilty about "wasting" his fighting abilities and he decides it's his duty to sacrifice himself for the greater good. sob!)

anyway, i love this line because it's not true and also it's true. nynaeve IS a selfless servant of all, but egwene will be a better servant of all-all than nynaeve could be. because egwene is more able to set aside her personal feelings to focus objectively on what's best for the greatest number of people, whereas nynaeve just can't stomach the ruthless calculus of war (which, again, is not a knock on either character, they're simply different kinds of people and BOTH kinds are needed to win the last battle). and that's why it could only ever be egwene who got the amyrlin arc, even though you might initially expect it to go to nynaeve due to the setup of her being the most powerful aes sedai of the age.