#modesty culture

[spurgie-cousin]

Re: the Bates kids not changing denominations; I think a big part of that is how their specific denomination has changed, at least in its outward presentation, over the past 10-20 years. Like, all most of the kids really wanted was to be able to wear what clothes they wanted and to do whatever activities and watch whatever media they wanted, and it appears the “standard” has become a whole lot more lax their circle. Trendy is fine, shorts/pants are fine, even bathing suits; it’s fine to play sports and watch movies and TV, as long as you’re “mindful” of it. Because they’ve gotten the changes they personally wanted, and there’s been no (as far as we’re aware) major scandals of abuse, they see no reason to challenge the rest of their beliefs. The Duggars tried to hold on to the same standards their kids never cared for, and had J*sh right in the middle making clear how useless the whole charade was.

(It probably also helped that they had a much smother transition to becoming Influencers due to the lack of familial scandal, so there’s no “why isn’t God providing like we were told” to start pondering over, just “God is so good! Swipe for 50% off”)

Yea I get what you're saying, but the Bates specifically were kind of a one-off in their denomination as far as their early standards of dress. the vast majority of even southern baptists are not as strict with their clothing choices as the Bates were, whereas the Duggars definitely held baptist values but weren't as eager to attach themselves to a denomination in most of the early days.

The common thread was their involvement in IBLP, which I do think the Duggars leaned into more overall, bc with Gil being a specifically Baptist preacher, the Bates by default had a structured approach to church/worshipping, if that makes sense. but the Duggars put more emphasis on home church, and structured it around the values of Gothard as opposed to an existing denomination, so I think when the time came it was just easier for the Bates to slip out of that thinking for that reason. as members of an outside church they had more examples of "godly" people who weren't uber modest, whereas the Duggars mostly held home church with people who held their exact same values on everything, including modesty.

That's an oversimplification for sure, but I think JB was the bigger Gothard fan girl at the end of the day, and I think it has something to do with the differences bt the Bates/Duggars as adult kids.

[sundaychurchcoffee]

So does anyone have parents who tell you to dress a certain way and to "cover up"? Like

No short shorts

No V necks,

No see through material or shirts that have any openings

No two piece swimsuits,

All that.

Ever thought, huh...weird. Guess what they're perverts.

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

"Dear Muslim Family & Friends...

It was your job to investigate whether what my grandparents taught you was actually true. It was your job to open the Quran & Hadith books and qustion everything before committing your life to this scam. The red flags were everywhere... you would have known it had you not been so invested in your own delusions.

❤️ an ex-Muslim"

"Dear Muslim Family & Friends...

I wish you would have shown more anger for FGM than for a cartoon made in France.

I wish you didn't hypersexualize and put all the blame on me or any woman for the actions of men, or not wearing 'modest' clothes properly as per Allah.

Why can't you hold men accountable of their actions?

❤️ an ex-Muslim"

"Dear Muslim Family & Friends...

I wish I could express to you how much I hate and do not want to cover my face. it gives me the feeling that I'm just a commodity that exists to sleep with a strange man and live with him for the rest of my life.

❤️ an ex-Muslim"

"Dear Muslim Family & Friends...

I am depressed & suicidal even after leaving Islam... Mother, you shame me because I am not modest enough in front of my father. Talking against child marriage is a sin. I can't talk to anyone about my thoughts... And when I speak, you make fun of my illness. Do I have to end my life to not be objectified or trapped in Islam?

❤️ an ex-Muslim"

"Dear Muslim Family & Friends...

You make me live in fear and enver give me freedom.

I'm a prisoner.

I'm a girl.

❤️ an ex-Muslim"

[myriad--starlings]

Apologies if this is too personal but what cult were you in? Or type of cult?

Nah I've talked about it pretty extensively on here in the past. I was raised in fundamentalist christianity, specifically my parents joined Bill Gothard's cult Institute of Basic Life Principles/Advanced Training Institute (IBLP/ATI). If you've heard of the Duggar family (TLC show 19 Kids and Counting, 20 Kids and Counting), they are currently a part of that cult. While my parents cut ties with ATI specifically after Bill Gothard was unmasked as a pedophile and predator, we continued to attend Independent Fundamental Baptist churches, all of which were completely bought in to the same doctrines and ideas, and full of people who had been involved with ATI. If you're curious the documentary Shiny Happy People does an excellent job breaking down the elements of this cult, though heads up for child abuse, csa, and a lot of discussion of sexual harassment and grooming.

[slugshatereligion]

Had to go to church this morning for the first time in a long time so here's a collection of my thoughts.

- misogyny is strong in church's

- saw two guys who I heard that SA family members. They are both respected members of the church even through I'm pretty certain everyone has heard rumors about it. (I don't think either was one formally charged)

- the music gets you. I don't believe it trying not to sing but it still gets you when the whole congregation is singing

- modesty is a scam and way to police other people appearance

- appearances matter more than everything else

- the church wants money I forgot how often they would ask for money

- no mention of current events at all I guess there nothing big happening that will definitely impact everyone there

- Bible interpretation is wild. Dude speaking like he knows exactly what the author meant based on this spefic English version.

- Christianity steals a lot of stuff from Jewish traditions and then they pretend that it's theirs but also stop following those traditions

[the-expose-on-girls]

Toxic Policing of Arbitrary "Modesty" rules in the Church

How a Biblical virtue has been twisted into a weapon and a disguise for the jealous and insecure

Those were the days, when church summer camp was the best week out of the entire year---even better than Christmas morning. Days spent adventuring in the great outdoors, evenings spent in worship, late nights playing crazy games with friends, hearty food, and the level of sleep deprivation that makes everything hilarious. The first morning after camp was over, after sleeping for twelve hours straight to make up for the past week, we all began looking forward to next year's camp.

Sadly, the magic at that camp ended well before my friends and I aged out of attending. It ended when some people hit a point where they started stupid heart-breaking, friendship-ending drama everywhere they went, especially at camp. One of these little episodes involved a fresh-out-of-high-school youth leader, who was also the leader of the popular girl clique at church. She was the darling of worship team (guitar player AND lead vocalist), the Dream Christian Girl who everyone wondered how she could be single. (If asked, she would say that she was waiting for God to bring her The One.) She was the girl all the guys 13 through 22 had a crush on at some point. She was the prettiest, the most pure, the most Godly, the most talented, the most selfless, the most kind. She was THE Proverbs 31 Woman and any guy who got her would be the luckiest guy in the world, right? Of course.

It was the summer of 2014 and everyone was preparing to board the buses for an excursion to the lake. Sunscreen? Check. Towel? Check. Change of dry clothes? Check. I had all my things ready to go and stood in the lobby talking with my friends while I waited for the call to board the bus. Miss Popular meandered through the groups of kids, making sure everyone had a towel in hand. Suddenly, she approached me and ordered me to go put on longer shorts, saying that mine did not meet the Modesty Rules. I was surprised, explaining that I had bought these specifically for camp because they were the longest pair the store had. They were the longest pair of shorts I had. For the record, they reached the tip of my thumbs when my hands were at my sides, only a couple inches away from the fingertip Modesty Rule. Did I not get credit for trying? What did she want me to do, sew my own clothes?

"I don't care, go put on longer shorts," she demanded, her Proverbs 31 Woman smile fading away. The whole lobby was staring at me now, eyeing my "scandalous" clothing.

"I don't have anything longer. And even if I did, there is no way my mom could bring some from home in time for us to leave for the lake," I defended myself, justly upset at this point.

There was no arguing with my defense at that point, so she fell back on an accusatory lecture about modesty as everyone continued to watch the show. Basically, she implied that I was a slut (without actually saying a non-G-rated word like "slut"), was trying to get male attention, and wasn't a Good Christian Girl. NOTHING could be further from my mind than getting guys' attention; I just wanted to go have fun at the lake with my friends. After dropping that bomb on my head, she marched off, feeling in control for humiliating me.

The excitement of the bus ride quickly got my mind on better things after that run-in. We swam, played games, picked berries, had a picnic, then swam some more, for HOURS in the summer sun. At one point, I sat down on a log in the shallows to rest and that's when I noticed Miss Popular for the first time since we arrived. She was soaked after participating in a game and her thin, low-cut tank top had only sunk lower and gotten more see-through from the lake water, revealing her skimpy bikini underneath. When she leaned forward even a little bit, she flashed everyone in front of her. Her short shorts had ridden up her legs after all the running around, making my shorts look like guys basketball shorts by comparison. When she leaned forward even a little bit, she flashed everyone behind her. She looked ready to strike some teasing poses on a Hawaiian beach for a magazine cover. Although, in some circles, they would refer to her look as a wardrobe malfunction.

She frolicked around the lake like that all day and no one said a word to her---not the youth pastor, not a fellow leader, not one of her friends. No one. Oh, but the guys sure stared and enjoyed the show. Whenever she sat down, she had a nice little posse of admirers around her, looking SO not casual. Afterwards, the way she interacted with me was as if nothing had happened.

It's also worth noting that another camper that year had a similar wardrobe malfunction during our pool trip and no one, not even Miss Popular, said anything to her. I still wonder why.

Meanwhile, 17-year-old little me looked in the mirror and saw an ugly duckling, a half-drowned rat in my prudish shorts, raggedy old t-shirt, half-dried frizzy hair, concealer-free face, and scuffs of lake mud everywhere. I had a blast at the lake that day. But the conflict with Miss Popular annoyed me. I already hated the way I looked; did she have to humiliate me in front of everyone on top of it? And then the mustard on the paper cut was her strutting around like a half-dressed Vogue model the whole day. I felt even worse about my appearance.

For context, the church's Modesty Rules stated that for swimming trips, girls were required to wear a one-piece swimsuit with a baggy t-shirt and long shorts over the top. (Why the swimsuit type mattered if it was just going to be thoroughly covered up, I have no clue.) Miss Popular broke every part of that rule, but insisted on policing me about my shorts that were longer than hers. AND she said nothing to the other camper dressed like her!

That episode has annoyed me for years. The hypocrisy, the injustice, the unfairness eats at me. Plus, the way she embarrassed me in front of everyone and twisted the knife in my self esteem as a nice little cherry on top. (Not to mention, the slander against my character, accusing me of being a boy-crazy attention whore.) It has taken me YEARS to build up my self esteem and conquer my body image issues. I know, "forgive and forget", right? I don't hold a grudge about it, but I hold onto it to remind myself that she is not truly the nice person she pretends to be at church and not a safe person to be close to. I retell that story to teach myself and others a lesson about seeing the spec in your brother's eye, but not the log in your own. (Matthew 7:3-5) Basically, don't police others about shortcomings that you yourself suffer from.

Now, we come to the point where we try to unpack the motive, the reasons behind the whole incident. Why did she do that to me and no one else? Why did no one say anything to her about the way she was dressed? WHY? A few theories spring to mind...

She has since posted quite a bit on social media about how she felt pressured over the years by people around her to maintain a slim figure. She lived on salad and spent a lot of time at the gym trying to maintain that look. It's possible that my super skinny figure made her feel insecure to the point that she would resort to verbally attacking me to make me hide the figure that bothered her. She didn't do the same to the other girl dressed like her because that girl's figure didn't make her feel insecure.

Male attention was obviously something she enjoyed on that trip. Maybe (though very unlikely), I wasn't as ugly as I thought I was and she felt threatened by me. She saw me as competition for the attention of a particular guy, and wanted to cover up that competition. It bothered her enough that she lashed out.

Maybe she was upset about something else unrelated and felt like venting that anger on someone. Once she did, she felt no need to do that to anyone else breaking Modesty Rules.

Maybe she's just genuinely a mean person underneath all that Good Christian Girl coverup and saw me as an easy target that day.

Whatever the reason(s), it's clear that the motivation wasn't teaching a fellow young lady to be more righteous, or she would have done the same to the other camper dressed just like her. If that was her motivation, then she also would have been leading by example. No, the scriptures were just used as a disguise to hide a very non-Biblical motive and a weapon to carry out a non-Biblical attack. If it was truly about the Bible, then all the girls there would have been held to the exact same standard by all of the leadership staff. But she was the only one doing the policing and she only had one target.

No one said anything to her about her own clothing because she was the golden girl and above reproach.

No one said anything to her about her own clothing because they enjoyed the show.

Am I a hypocrite for calling out what she was wearing? No. BY HER OWN WORDS (not mine), BY HER OWN RULES (not mine), she was intentionally dressing like a slut. Expecting her to live by her own rules she put in place is not hypocrisy.

This is just one, personal example of how modesty policing within and by the community of Christian women can be EXTREMELY toxic. It is selective, used as an excuse to shame only those fellow women who look "too good". It is an excuse to body shame, to make others feel bad about their bodies and cover them up, so the police-er feels better about her own body. It is a disguise for jealousy, used to slander and take down women who rattle one's insecurities just by existing.

[liberaljane]

We shouldn't have to dress modesty to be respected.

digital illustration of a fat witch sitting on a beach towel. She's wearing a bikini top, short jean shorts, a witch hat and fishnet socks. On the towel is a cat, sunscreen & docs. Text reads, 'we shouldn't have to be modest to be respected'

[feministfang]

Just watched a video on insta where hijabi women were pranking their husbands and male relatives to remove their hijabs that too in their own homes and these men started abusing them for that. This is what liberal leftists want to normalise by calling it "a free choice". Hijab is a symbol of oppression not a choice. And i am not listening to any muslim woman's opinion either on why is it her choice to wear it. You either have a hijab on your head or a brain in your head. Modesty culture is not empowerment, it’s slavery. You are a slave.

[slugshatereligion]

Purity culture fucks you up for a long time. I've left the church a couple years ago and I still struggle with it.

white people ruined the non sexual intimacy of nakedness methinks

[spurgie-cousin]

Part of me thinks it’s Jill’s 1980s/90s cosmetology schooling that makes her do this to her daughters (I just looked up 1980s makeup and the thin comma brows definitely show up) because that’s all she knows how to do, but also there’s a small part of me that’s beginning to agree with the snarkers that think she fucks up her daughters’ appearances on purpose because she wants to be the most beautiful one in the house and can’t let her daughters outshine her.

I know that’s a common theory with probably no solid proof, but Jill’s phone is with her all the time, there’s no way she doesn’t see any current makeup and hair trends online. Or even in real life. They travel enough that surely Jill and the girls have seen that very few people are doing their hair and makeup that way anymore? Unless they believe it makes them stand out? But that doesn’t mesh with their alleged beliefs on modesty and being humble.

Jill is a hornet's nest of contradictions tbh, especially in the modesty department. I think Jill would've finished up home/high school in the 90s, if she was born in '78 and got her cosmetology license at at least 18 or 19, that puts her in '96ish at the earliest? which makes her choices even more baffling tbh bc that's closer to Y2K than the mid 80s.

I think, like with her religious beliefs, Jill decides something is true and then that's that, she's incapable of evolving past it for the most part lol. She'll change little things here and there, like the eyebrows I pointed out, but the basics start pretty much the same: dark lipstick, dark bottom eyeliner, big, dyed hair. She probably learned her basics from her mom in the 80s (who also loves her a big 70s/80s hairdo) and then just locked that in for the rest of her life.

Just based on the clothes/makeup/hair Jill has put on herself, I'm not sure if I'm totally in on the theory that she's trying to make her daughters uglier, esp considering the fact that she believes that looking good is second only to motherhood as far as what makes you a good biblical woman (again, hornet's nest of contradiction). I think she wants her daughters to be hot, her idea of hot is just kind of clownish and outdated. I think just like Jill, a lot of the girls just locked in the beauty basics she taught them and threw away the key. For Nurie though I think it's also possible that years of over-plucking really fucked up her brows ability to grow back (I did that shit to myself in the early 2000s too) and she just doesn't know what else to do with them besides trace over what's there.

Also what you said about standing out, I do think that's true for their clothing choices at least. Jill has said herself that when it comes to modesty, she almost over does it to make sure everyone who sees her family knows they're being modest on purpose. Like when we see the girls in otherwise modest dresses that still have a tshirt underneath, or the boys in jeans in 100 degree weather at the beach, that's on purpose according to Jill.

[serpentface]

how do you come up with the ways cultures in your setting stylize people/animals/the world in general in their artwork, i.e. jewlery, rock carvings, statues, etc? Each culture in your world seems to have a very unique "art style" and I love it a lot - makes them seem that much more 'real'. This is something I struggle with a lot in my own worldbuilding and I'd love to pick your brain if possible 😁

I think a starting point is to have a research process based in the material realities of the culture you're designing for. Ask yourself questions like:

Where do they live? What's the climate/ecosystem(s) they are based in? What geographic features are present/absent?

What is their main subsistence method? (hunter gatherer, seasonal pastoralist, nomadic pastoralist, settled agriculturalist, a mix, etc)

What access to broader trade networks do they have and to whom? Are there foreign materials that will be easily accessible in trade and common in use, or valuable trade materials used sparingly in limited capacities?

Etc

And then do some research based on the answers, in order to get a sense of what materials they would have routine access to (ie dyes, metal, textiles, etc) and other possible variables that would shape how the art is made and what it's used for. This is just a foundational step and won't likely play much into designing a Style.

If you narrow these questions down very specifically, (ie in the context of the Korya post- grassland based mounted nomads, pastoralist and hunter-gatherer subsistence, access to wider trade networks and metals), you can direct your research to specific real world instances that fit this general idea. This is not to lift culturally specific concepts from the real world and slap them into your own setting, but to notice commonalities this lifestyle enforces - (ie in the previous example- mounted nomadic peoples are highly mobile and need to easily carry their wealth (often on clothing and tack) therefore small, elaborate decorative artwork that can easily be carried from place to place is a very likely feature)

For the details of the art itself, I come up with loose 'style guides' (usually just in my head) and go from there.

Here's some example questions for forming a style (some are more baseline than others)

Are geometric patterns favored? Organic patterns? Representative patterns (flowers, animals, stars, etc)? Abstract patterns?

Is there favored material(s)? Beads, bone, clay, metals, stones, etc.

When depicting people/animals, is realism favored? Heavy stylization? The emotional impression of an animal? Are key features accentuated?

How perspective typically executed? Does art attempt to capture 3d depth? Does it favor showing the whole body in 2 dimensions (ie much of Ancient Egyptian art, with the body shown in a mix of profile and forward facing perspective so all key attributes are shown)? Will limbs overlap? Are bodies shown static? In motion?

Does artwork of people attempt to beautify them? Does it favor the culture's conception of the ideal body?

Are there common visual motifs? Important symbols? Key subject matters?

What is the art used for? Are its functions aesthetic, tutelary, spiritual, magical? (Will often exist in combination, or have different examples for each purpose)

Who is represented? Is there interest in everyday people? Does art focus on glorifying warriors, heroes, kings?

Are there conventions for representing important figures? (IE gods/kings/etc being depicted larger than culturally lesser subjects)

Is there visual shorthand to depict objects/concepts that are difficult to execute with clarity (the sun, moon, water), or are invisible (wind, the soul), or have no physical component (speech)?

Etc

Deciding on answers to any of these questions will at least give you a unique baseline, and you can fill in the rest of the gaps and specify a style further until it is distinct. Many of these questions are not mutually exclusive, both in the sense of elements being combined (patterns with both geometric and organic elements) or a culture having multiple visual styles (3d art objects having unique features, religious artwork having its own conventions, etc).

Also when you're getting in depth, you should have cultural syncretism in mind. Cultures that routinely interact (whether this interaction is exchange or exploitation) inevitably exchange ideas, which can be especially visible in art. Doing research on how this synthesizing of ideas works in practice is very helpful- what is adopted or left out from an external influence, what is retained from an internal influence, what is unique to this synthesis, AND WHY. (I find Greco-Buddhist art really interesting, that's one of many such examples)

Looking at real world examples that fit your parameters can be helpful (ie if I've decided on geometric patterns in my 'style guide', I'll look at actual geometric patterns). And I strongly encourage trying to actually LEARN about what you're seeing. All art exists in a context, and having an understanding of how the context shapes art, how art does and doesn't relate to broader aspects of a society, etc, can help you when synthesizing your own.

[violapeeps-blog]

Modest Person: I dress modest as a choice! I do it for my own personal reasons or for faith, but it's my choice. It's more than just dressing this way, to me modesty is-

Everyone: Oh mY gOsH! WhO's MaKiNg yOu Do ThAt? I fEel sO bAd fOr YoU!!!!

Modest Person: Oh-It's actually my choice

Everyone: I jUsT fEeL SoOoO bAd? WaNt To bOrrOw My ClOtheS? I wOn'T teLL.

Vs.

Influencer: *wears a modest outfit in a pic*

Everyone: Omg! What a cute trend! Long skirts are sooo cute!

[religion-is-a-mental-illness]

Did you know that "hijab" (literally, "cover") rules also apply to men?

They also apply to your house.

[incognitopolls]

For the purposes of this poll, "veiling" refers to wearing specific types of garments to cover specific parts of your body, usually in a religious or cultural context. Examples include hijab, kippah/yarmulke, a nun's habit, etc.

–

We ask your questions so you don’t have to! Submit your questions to have them posted anonymously as polls.

[lewmagoo]

Whatcha gonna to wear to the Atta Boy concert?

*whispers* wear something slutty 😘

i think i’ve settled on wearing a casual black dress and a chunky cardigan with some boots! it’s not the sluttiest thing bc i’m not that brave but perhaps i will let the titties breathe by exposing a little cleavage lol 🤭

[blackswaneuroparedux]

Modest about our national pride - and inordinately proud of our national modesty.

- Ian Hislop

Photo by Frank Habicht in Swinging London of the 1960s.