#ml discussion

[bklily]

I haven't seen the special yet I'll only be able to in a few hours. But why am I seeing so many people mad that Marinette "kept the secret from Adrien"? I thought we knew this? Why would they take away one of the biggest sources of conflict for S6 in a special?? That's just common sense I fear. I get that the misunderstanding and keeping secrets trope isn't everyone's cup of tea but that's literally what Miraculous has always been about so I don't get what's so different

[gameguy20100]

You know, Felix's "love" for Adrien doesn't really make sense.

In Felix, as well as Risk and Strikeback. Felix seemed to outright hate him. Trying to ruin his social life for no reason, belittling him for being abused by Gabriel. Even though he knows how Sentimonsters and Amoks work

But in Emotion, he claims that he's doing everything he is to protect Adrien and free him from Gabriel. If Adrien truly is a sentimonster, then he's completely incapable of disobedience towards whoever holds his Amok, and Felix knows that.

But Felix's behaviour with another person betrays the Truth. Kagami.

Remember in the episode Gabriel Agreste? We got this image.

That glare. Kagami is slightly wary and suspicious. But Felix seems to outright hate her.

What changed between then and Emotion when Felix insists he loves Kagami and wants to save and protect her?

He discovered she was a sentimonster.

So either Felix recently discovered Adrien is a sentimonster (most likely Risk) or at least that event caused Felix to assume he is.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

I was re-watching the season, two ending of miraculous ladybug, and I think it was far better than season five ending

Season 2 does have the most hopeful Finale, and it’s the only Finale where you could argue it was a win for the heroes.

Season 3 finale could be argued as a stalemate, but Team Hawkmoth got more information and fixed the Peacock thus becoming more of a threat, while team Ladybug lost an ally.

Season 4 Finale was a win for Hawkmoth/monarch since he got a ton of miraculous. But it was at least more hopeful as it showed Paris fighting With Ladybug. It is my personal fave finale.

And Season 5 finale… the less said the better. I’d rather not go into it

[isaangie-art]

Actually, I miss the time when Miraculous S2 was still airing... when I got into this fandom for first time it was in that era (":

[monpetitchattriste]

Put your clothes back on. We are going to talk about why it makes perfect sense for Marinette to lie about who Monarch was. And even with the consequences that she might face it was a good decision in that moment. How it was very in character for her. How they definitely hinted at the truth getting out. How the whole special was about the lie she told and how she will one day have to deal with those consequences. How it set up the next season so well.......ect....

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I'm personally not a fan of the 5 minutes to detransform rule. It was fine in the earlier seasons, but it's ultimately not a fun gimmick. It makes the five segmented designs of the miraculous seem pointless, specifically with adults. I, personally, would have the segments represent uses (i.e. five sentimonsters, five cataclysms, five time jumps through burrow, etc.) before they have to consciously detransform to recharge the kwami powers. I think it gives the characters more purpose than just being a one time use power per battle/episode (and they can still contribute without the abilities), and it nerfs some of the more overpowered abilities to create more risk.

Hey, same brain! I argue for a very similar fix!

My ideal version of the miraculous is that you get five charges that the spots, claws, etc. count down. Then, once the charges are used up, the spots, claws, etc. reappear and start counting down. I don't think you should get all five charges at once, though. I think you should either need to train to get more or that getting more should be a product of age.

I take this stance because I like the idea of older or more experienced Chosen having more power, but I hate canon's one-or-all approach. It just feels silly. There's no buildup to more power. You just randomly get it one day. Boring! Way more fun if the characters get it slowly over time.

It would also fix another issue I have which is that the miracle cure shouldn't be free. It should cost Ladybug the same way a lucky charm does. It would be so interesting if she could do it mid-battle, but then also have to recharge, making it way more of a strategic thing than just a final cleanup move. It goes perfectly in line with my preference for Chat Noir having a sister move that is the opposite of the cure. Ladybug can do a wave of Creation, Chat Noir can do a wave of Destruction, but both cost a move so they have to be careful about when and where they use them. That just makes so much more sense lore wise!

[coffeebanana]

it is fun how nobody is in agreement about wtf really happened to adrien/the amoks KAJBDFKJSFDKBF

[yunyin]

Have people talked about this skull motif on Marinette's dress?

This feels like such an odd choice to me. I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

[gameguy20100]

Watching the Finale again gave me this thought.

Isn't it a massive red flag Felix keeps the peacock rather than destroying it? He got what he wanted, Gabriel is gone. He doesn't need the miraculous anymore.

What gives him the right to have the power to kill Adrien or Kagami anytime he wants? His whole thing was that nobody should have power over others, yet him having it is fine?

Felix you are a bastard and I hate you.

[generalluxun]

I hope it's not untoward to jump in, I think the Adrien angle has been well covered but the OP mentioned other subjects and hey, why not discuss them?

Lila-her transformation is... Meh? Like, she hadn't been fleshed out enough for me to be upset. Her lies were always ridiculous, her plots were always just 'because we said so' and her having 43 mothers 57 identities, and an evil lair? Sure, why not. She's not a person, she's a trope. I figure they wanted to avoid another Chloé mistake(humanizing a hate sink) and just made her so unbelievable that 'Supervillain' is the only thing that fits. The fact that she's a teen girl and only the two teen girls are 'absolute evil' is a whole different discussion worth having bit it isn't this one.

Nathalie- Isn't actually fridged? Fridging involves the injury being for the trauma/motivation of the male/important character. Gabriel cared for like... An episode or two. Her condition is more to play for sympathy in the audience leading up to her 'redemption' and to give her a reason to turn on Gabe. It's 'poor Nathalie, look what she did for love! She's just so loving and good and forget about the fact she hired Cash to kill Sifu and killed Sentibug'

Cat Noir Crush-yeah, they murdered the lovesquare quickfast to get to Adrienette, then retconned in the traumaplot for several episodes. S5 really feels like a final season where they wanted to hit all the points instead of pacing them out. I'm guessing it was written before S6-8 were greenlit. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Elation's Marichat is basically my favorite part of S5.

Zoé- I've talked about her lots. Maybe not on tumblr? She's such a pointless character *who did not have to be* If all they needed was a blonde not-Chloé kinda bratty girl Aurore was *right there* to be tapped in. Unrequited crush on Marinette? Kagami. 'Protection' is basically the perfect setup for a Kagami based 'Adoration'. The *only* narrative purpose for introducing a 4th season half-sister into the Bourgeois family is to *be a catalyst for change* and I don't mean for the whiny rich white man. It even looked like Zoé might... Then they just did nothing with her. She is a character who exists only by what she carves out of other people's stories. The most interesting part of canon!Zoé is how her Wasp-namesake fits how she invaded and took over the hive like a parasite. She could have been so much more.

Cheating- they ignore *both* parties cheating in NYC. Luka drops Marinette off and you can still *see him out the bus window* when she starts gagaing at Adrien. Setting the NYC between seasons was such a weird choice. It was the only time they were both taken. Audrey's infidelity is one of those 'we are ignoring it because we also ignored how Chloé having a sister only a yr younger than her when we already showed her mother leaving a toddler Chloé while not looking pregnant is really weird' it's a hole they're just paving over. Bad? Yeah. Par for the course though.

Weird events-S5 is a mess of 'wouldn't it be cool if' and creator indulgences. Again, if it were a final season it kind of makes sense? I don't *like* a lot of the choices but I can see why you go wild with your finalé material. I expect a big reset for S6. They need to build up a new status quo and somehow break this 'utopia' they created. Utopias may be fun to live in, but they're very boring to watch. There's a reason Star Trek follows the people out on the fringes, not the prople hanging back chilling on post-scarcity earth.

These are all my opinions etc etc. feel free to tag me if you want to split any off to their own discussions.

There does seem to be a trend in the specific sect of this fandom that I circulate where people are only openly against writing decisions that impede Adrien's role in the story. Nothing was ever discussed on my dash about the following:

Lila's bizarre transition from a normal mean teenage girl (a strong narrative antagonist for Marinette's civilian conflict) to a weird Machiavellian criminal

Nathalie's (and Emilie's of course, but I'm saltier about it with Nathalie) role in the story being a prime example of a Fridged Woman

The way Marinette's long-coming crush on Cat Noir was tossed aside after two episodes

Zoe still not bringing anything to the narrative

The weird undiscussed presence of cheating in relationships in this whole show (Adrien apparently cheating on Kagami with Marinette in the NYC special, Audrey Bourgeois blatantly having cheated on her husband)

The increasingly bizarre events in this show that, to me, clearly just exist to make people go :O, not unlike how shows like Riverdale became increasingly bizarre over the course of their run in order to get viewers because they knew they couldn't grab viewers with their mediocre premise alone (Chloe becoming mayor, Felix and Kagami's weird little play, etc)

There's a lot more I wanted to add here, but figured were more my opinion than an actual Thing to be discussed.

Never saw any of this discussed in my circle of Tumblr, but I HAVE seen an absolute ton of discussion surrounding Adrien's screen time, Adrien's family dynamics, Adrien's role as a hero, Adrien's internal struggles, and how the writers apparently don't explore any of those things to their full potential.

And it makes me wonder why people are so fixated on him. Because I'm sorry to say this, but I've personally always seen him as a pretty unremarkable character. Don't misconstrue my words and say I said I don't like him, because I do like him. But I hardly consider him the most interesting character in the show.

My theory? He's just an easy character to fixate on, for the following reasons:

None of his struggles come from his financial, racial/cultural, or other kind of protected background, meaning discussions on his struggles don't have to be "difficult."

The fact that his primary antagonist is his father (as his father, and not as Hawk Moth) means fans can easily take the "I want to adopt him and give him a good home" route of character analysis

He's perpetually positive, meaning it doesn't require a lot of mental energy to like him-- he can just be a lovable "sunshine boy" to people.

On the rare occasion he IS upset, fans become obsessed, because who doesn't love more emotional depth?

When he's positive/nonplussed about something that he morally should be upset at, fans can easily explain it away as a result of his upbringing.

He's cute. There's no way to talk around this. He's got big green eyes and baby cheeks and flippy blond hair and a soft voice and cute habits like scratching his neck when he's nervous. The first three things are traits character designers often employ to get audiences to like their characters. The last two things are examples of things you can do to get people to subconsciously like you irl. This part is just psychology, and it makes me wonder if people would be affected by all the above points if he didn't look the way he does.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to like Adrien for any of the above reasons. I just want some people to think about their opinions of this show and ask themselves whether they feel as strongly about other writing decisions as they do about the ones that "hurt" Adrien, and, if they don't, why they feel so drawn to Adrien in the first place. Because it's definitely not because the show does him dirtier than everyone else.

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

When the most normal person in your friend group is a formerly homeschooled trust-fund baby model, who plays soccer with his hands, smells faintly of cheese, and moonlights as a catboy, you know you've goofed up

[imultimouse]

I never come on here, but I wanted to discuss something since I've seen a couple of salt posts discussing Adrien's "sudden" shift of feelings towards Marinette in season 5, and I don't think some of you are understanding the whole lovesquare arc. Adrien has ALWAYS loved Marinette, ever since the umbrella scene. His feelings gradually grew more and more, but since he had already taken interest in Ladybug, he suppressed those feelings. This was the whole point of the "just a friend" phase. It was DENIAL, not genuine disinterest. If you go back and rewatch the show from the beginning, you'd notice that Adrien unconsciously behaves in a way that makes his crush on Marinette obvious. Ex:

Feeling uncomfortable kissing Chloé in season 1, but feeling perfectly comfortable with Marinette.

The constant heart eyes we got throughout the show.

He carries her lucky charm with him all the time, and he even made a gift especially for her

He called her his "everyday Ladybug", which we all know how much that means coming from him.

Effortlessly dancing romantically with her, TWICE.

Etc, etc. Keeping all that in mind, what happened in Puppeteer 2 isn't when he started DEVELOPING feelings, it's when he started REALIZING those feelings. He said it himself, the way he reacted to her going ahead and kissing him shocked him. Not to mention that in Chat Blanc, he straight up told her in his confession that he had always felt this way, he just didn't understand what he felt.

All their interactions thus far had Marinette somehow friendzone their encounters, so Adrien never had the chance to think about his own feelings, except in Weredad, but he was too preoccupied with his intense feelings for Ladybug to notice. And it's because of that, that after Marinette kissed him, he started noticing the similarities between her and Ladybug, causing his feelings to grow even further.

"You remind me of the girl I love."

Then, he started paying more attention to her, and noticed how she always cheers him up and makes him laugh, and is always there for him when he needs her.

Finally, we reach the season 4 finale, and he realizes that Marinette truly understands him for who he is, not the image he kept up, and it's THEN that he fully realizes there is something there, but he is too confused to know for sure, which is directly supported by his confession in Chat Blanc.

That is when Determination comes into play, and Adrien finally realizes what the butterflies in his stomach meant this entire time. This is also why that every time he discovers Marinette is Ladybug, he is instantly relieved and overwhelmed with joy, because that makes the two people he loves the most one person, and there is no more dilemma in his heart.

So this is it, a summary of Adrien's development of his feelings towards Marinette, which also explains why it's so sincere from his end. It's not sudden for sure. Yeah, it could have been written a lot better, but what do we expect from MLB writers anyway? If you've made it this far, thank you for reading, and let me know what you think.

[theboredhooman]

probably unpopular opinion but while the animation for season 6 is pretty good i find the redesigns were atrocious 😭 photo for reference and more thoughts under the cut because spoilers

they did so many of them dirty...like Zoe girlie what HAPPENED dear god 😭 okay harley quinn

also alya and Sabrina for some reason I just do not like how they look. like at all. also rose that hairstyle....I get it's to better show her cancer but like.....what did they do to you 😭

do NOT get me started on Adrien hsdjkeuwirjskhfskjhgjak

yk what maybe its the photo. I haven't watched illustrhater yet so maybe it's fine and all the posts I've seen just have poorly taken photos. 🫠

[coccinelledemoiselle]

I watched the back half of season 5 in like two sittings and it felt like a fucking fever dream

I tagged spoilers just in case but spoilers ahead.

The Finale/last five or so episodes felt insane. Chloe straight up got dumber, all the Lila nonsense just to reveal she's some rando, the bit with Émilie and Amelie being like.... pregnant with sentimonster children?? The lack of explanation of what the fuck Kagami being "made for Adrien" (but apparently actually for Felix) was all about, the W H O L E Luka thing (leaving and then traveling and becoming a monk?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!!), Marinette literally trusting the villain for a single second (she should have learned by now like oh my god), and the Jojo-ass "This is a new universe where the other stuff never happened but one person remembers it in its entirety because they slipped through the cracks"????

Honestly I could go on for days about this

I was re-watching the season, two ending of miraculous ladybug, and I think it was far better than season five ending

Season 2 does have the most hopeful Finale, and it’s the only Finale where you could argue it was a win for the heroes.

Season 3 finale could be argued as a stalemate, but Team Hawkmoth got more information and fixed the Peacock thus becoming more of a threat, while team Ladybug lost an ally.

Season 4 Finale was a win for Hawkmoth/monarch since he got a ton of miraculous. But it was at least more hopeful as it showed Paris fighting With Ladybug. It is my personal fave finale.

And Season 5 finale… the less said the better. I’d rather not go into it

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I know you’ve said in the past that you don’t think switching marinette and adrien’s kwamis would solve anything writing-wise, but do you think having the kwamis switch personalities would do the trick? marinette still has ladybug/creation, but with plagg’s personality, and adrien still has black cat/destruction, but with tikki’s personality. thoughts?

No, I don't think that this would fix anything because it's approaching the problem as if the issue is some flaw in the show's base setup. As if you have to make major changes for Miraculous to work. My stance has always been that the base setup is totally fine. The problem is the execution. In fact, I think that the current kwami personalities are a great choice, the problem is that they're not being used well.

Marinette has a pretty strong personality. She knows what she wants, but has a tendency to get caught up in her own head and a tendency to make snap judgments. Those tendencies make her occasionally fail to consider alternate paths or points of view. That means that what she needs most is someone who will make her consider those alternatives. Someone who will be direct, talk her out of mental spirals, and keep her focused. A voice of reason, if you will. Tikki is perfectly suited to that role. She is not the kind of kwami to sit passively by. Plagg, on the other hand, would just encourage Marinette along the path of glorious chaos or let her do whatever she wants so long as he gets his cheese. While I think that could be genuinely fun to watch, it's not really benefiting Marinette much and this ask appears to be treating the Kwamis as potential mentors, so I will, too.

Adrien is a little more complex. Given his rather depressing home life, I can see why someone would want to pair him with loving Tikki over more-detached Plagg, but I'll explain why I think that Plagg is the better fit IF you actually let him mentor.

Adrien is a passive follower. He never fights for himself and he bows to authority at the drop of a hat. While those traits are arguably strengths for his role on the battlefield, they're not great for him in his day-to-day life. There's nothing wrong with being more passive and more of a follower, but he needs to learn that he can make his own choices, too. The best way to do that is to give him the kind of mentor who doesn't just hand him the answers. Someone a little chaotic whose style is subtle pushes and not just handing him a possible path to take because Adrien would absolutely just take the suggested path. Plagg is perfectly suited to taking on this style of mentorship and it is a crime that the show never let him shine.

Example scenario: Adrien feeling left out in season four. (Note the following is a very rough draft)

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Tikki: You need to talk to Ladybug and tell her how you feel! Ask her when she's free to meet up! Adrien: Okay, what should I say? Tikki: Tells him what to say.

This is solid advice, but Tikki is just handing Adrien an answer. He's probably not going to learn from this and may even flub up his talk with Ladybug without Tikki walking him through it because he's just doing what he's told and not coming to this path on his own. Contrast this to Plagg in his ultimate form (by which I mean mentor Plagg, not eldritch horror Plagg):

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Plagg: And you're left watching from the sidelines every time? Adrien: No, not always. Plagg: So she's sharing the cheese now? Giving you slices instead of the whole wheel? Adrien: yeah, I guess. Plagg: why? Adrien: what do you mean why? Plagg: why'd she start sharing? Adrien: I don't know. Plagg: Huh. Too bad. If only there was a way you could find out. I guess it will remain a mystery. Adrien: (annoyed) Ladybug knows! Plagg: And? Adrien: And... I guess I could ask her? Plagg: I mean, if you started sharing my cheese, I'd be demanding answers! Adrien: I'd never share your cheese! Plagg: You promise? Never? Not even if you were starving? Adrien: Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was an emergency or something, but I wouldn't share it without a good reason! Plagg: And Ladybug's different? Adrien: What do you mean? Plagg: She does things without a good reason? Adrien: Of course not! She's brilliant! She always has a plan! Plagg: Interesting. Might want to keep that in mind for your little talk. Adrien: (after a thoughtful pause) So you think I should talk to her? Plagg: Is there another way for you to find out what's going on? Adrien: No. Plagg: Then why are you bothering me? Sounds like you only have one option!

Note that Plagg never gives Adrien a clear answer here. He just asks questions in a bored manner and lets Adrien think things through. He's guiding Adrien to a specific answer, but making Adrien really think about it, better prepping him for the coming talk. This mentorship style would drive Marinette crazy, but I think it would do wonders for Adrien! The difference is that, in this situation, Marinette probably already knows what she needs to do and is just avoiding it while Adrien genuinely needs help realizing that he can speak up. This doesn't mean that Adrien should never get direct, clear advice, I just wouldn't make that the standard as it's not helping him with his passivity.

All of this is a big part of why I love Plagg so much. That little cheese gremlin is just brimming with potential and it saddens me greatly that canon will never give it to us. They gave him the perfect personality, they just missed the fine details of how that personality should function as a mentor.