#ml discussion

[bklily]

I haven't seen the special yet I'll only be able to in a few hours. But why am I seeing so many people mad that Marinette "kept the secret from Adrien"? I thought we knew this? Why would they take away one of the biggest sources of conflict for S6 in a special?? That's just common sense I fear. I get that the misunderstanding and keeping secrets trope isn't everyone's cup of tea but that's literally what Miraculous has always been about so I don't get what's so different

[gameguy20100]

You know, Felix's "love" for Adrien doesn't really make sense.

In Felix, as well as Risk and Strikeback. Felix seemed to outright hate him. Trying to ruin his social life for no reason, belittling him for being abused by Gabriel. Even though he knows how Sentimonsters and Amoks work

But in Emotion, he claims that he's doing everything he is to protect Adrien and free him from Gabriel. If Adrien truly is a sentimonster, then he's completely incapable of disobedience towards whoever holds his Amok, and Felix knows that.

But Felix's behaviour with another person betrays the Truth. Kagami.

Remember in the episode Gabriel Agreste? We got this image.

That glare. Kagami is slightly wary and suspicious. But Felix seems to outright hate her.

What changed between then and Emotion when Felix insists he loves Kagami and wants to save and protect her?

He discovered she was a sentimonster.

So either Felix recently discovered Adrien is a sentimonster (most likely Risk) or at least that event caused Felix to assume he is.

[gale-gentlepenguin]

I was re-watching the season, two ending of miraculous ladybug, and I think it was far better than season five ending

Season 2 does have the most hopeful Finale, and it’s the only Finale where you could argue it was a win for the heroes.

Season 3 finale could be argued as a stalemate, but Team Hawkmoth got more information and fixed the Peacock thus becoming more of a threat, while team Ladybug lost an ally.

Season 4 Finale was a win for Hawkmoth/monarch since he got a ton of miraculous. But it was at least more hopeful as it showed Paris fighting With Ladybug. It is my personal fave finale.

And Season 5 finale… the less said the better. I’d rather not go into it

[isaangie-art]

Actually, I miss the time when Miraculous S2 was still airing... when I got into this fandom for first time it was in that era (":

[monpetitchattriste]

Put your clothes back on. We are going to talk about why it makes perfect sense for Marinette to lie about who Monarch was. And even with the consequences that she might face it was a good decision in that moment. How it was very in character for her. How they definitely hinted at the truth getting out. How the whole special was about the lie she told and how she will one day have to deal with those consequences. How it set up the next season so well.......ect....

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I know you’ve said in the past that you don’t think switching marinette and adrien’s kwamis would solve anything writing-wise, but do you think having the kwamis switch personalities would do the trick? marinette still has ladybug/creation, but with plagg’s personality, and adrien still has black cat/destruction, but with tikki’s personality. thoughts?

No, I don't think that this would fix anything because it's approaching the problem as if the issue is some flaw in the show's base setup. As if you have to make major changes for Miraculous to work. My stance has always been that the base setup is totally fine. The problem is the execution. In fact, I think that the current kwami personalities are a great choice, the problem is that they're not being used well.

Marinette has a pretty strong personality. She knows what she wants, but has a tendency to get caught up in her own head and a tendency to make snap judgments. Those tendencies make her occasionally fail to consider alternate paths or points of view. That means that what she needs most is someone who will make her consider those alternatives. Someone who will be direct, talk her out of mental spirals, and keep her focused. A voice of reason, if you will. Tikki is perfectly suited to that role. She is not the kind of kwami to sit passively by. Plagg, on the other hand, would just encourage Marinette along the path of glorious chaos or let her do whatever she wants so long as he gets his cheese. While I think that could be genuinely fun to watch, it's not really benefiting Marinette much and this ask appears to be treating the Kwamis as potential mentors, so I will, too.

Adrien is a little more complex. Given his rather depressing home life, I can see why someone would want to pair him with loving Tikki over more-detached Plagg, but I'll explain why I think that Plagg is the better fit IF you actually let him mentor.

Adrien is a passive follower. He never fights for himself and he bows to authority at the drop of a hat. While those traits are arguably strengths for his role on the battlefield, they're not great for him in his day-to-day life. There's nothing wrong with being more passive and more of a follower, but he needs to learn that he can make his own choices, too. The best way to do that is to give him the kind of mentor who doesn't just hand him the answers. Someone a little chaotic whose style is subtle pushes and not just handing him a possible path to take because Adrien would absolutely just take the suggested path. Plagg is perfectly suited to taking on this style of mentorship and it is a crime that the show never let him shine.

Example scenario: Adrien feeling left out in season four. (Note the following is a very rough draft)

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Tikki: You need to talk to Ladybug and tell her how you feel! Ask her when she's free to meet up! Adrien: Okay, what should I say? Tikki: Tells him what to say.

This is solid advice, but Tikki is just handing Adrien an answer. He's probably not going to learn from this and may even flub up his talk with Ladybug without Tikki walking him through it because he's just doing what he's told and not coming to this path on his own. Contrast this to Plagg in his ultimate form (by which I mean mentor Plagg, not eldritch horror Plagg):

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Plagg: And you're left watching from the sidelines every time? Adrien: No, not always. Plagg: So she's sharing the cheese now? Giving you slices instead of the whole wheel? Adrien: yeah, I guess. Plagg: why? Adrien: what do you mean why? Plagg: why'd she start sharing? Adrien: I don't know. Plagg: Huh. Too bad. If only there was a way you could find out. I guess it will remain a mystery. Adrien: (annoyed) Ladybug knows! Plagg: And? Adrien: And... I guess I could ask her? Plagg: I mean, if you started sharing my cheese, I'd be demanding answers! Adrien: I'd never share your cheese! Plagg: You promise? Never? Not even if you were starving? Adrien: Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was an emergency or something, but I wouldn't share it without a good reason! Plagg: And Ladybug's different? Adrien: What do you mean? Plagg: She does things without a good reason? Adrien: Of course not! She's brilliant! She always has a plan! Plagg: Interesting. Might want to keep that in mind for your little talk. Adrien: (after a thoughtful pause) So you think I should talk to her? Plagg: Is there another way for you to find out what's going on? Adrien: No. Plagg: Then why are you bothering me? Sounds like you only have one option!

Note that Plagg never gives Adrien a clear answer here. He just asks questions in a bored manner and lets Adrien think things through. He's guiding Adrien to a specific answer, but making Adrien really think about it, better prepping him for the coming talk. This mentorship style would drive Marinette crazy, but I think it would do wonders for Adrien! The difference is that, in this situation, Marinette probably already knows what she needs to do and is just avoiding it while Adrien genuinely needs help realizing that he can speak up. This doesn't mean that Adrien should never get direct, clear advice, I just wouldn't make that the standard as it's not helping him with his passivity.

All of this is a big part of why I love Plagg so much. That little cheese gremlin is just brimming with potential and it saddens me greatly that canon will never give it to us. They gave him the perfect personality, they just missed the fine details of how that personality should function as a mentor.

[yunyin]

Have people talked about this skull motif on Marinette's dress?

This feels like such an odd choice to me. I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

[wield-the-mighty-pen]

When the most normal person in your friend group is a formerly homeschooled trust-fund baby model, who plays soccer with his hands, smells faintly of cheese, and moonlights as a catboy, you know you've goofed up

[gameguy20100]

Watching the Finale again gave me this thought.

Isn't it a massive red flag Felix keeps the peacock rather than destroying it? He got what he wanted, Gabriel is gone. He doesn't need the miraculous anymore.

What gives him the right to have the power to kill Adrien or Kagami anytime he wants? His whole thing was that nobody should have power over others, yet him having it is fine?

Felix you are a bastard and I hate you.

[generalluxun]

I hope it's not untoward to jump in, I think the Adrien angle has been well covered but the OP mentioned other subjects and hey, why not discuss them?

Lila-her transformation is... Meh? Like, she hadn't been fleshed out enough for me to be upset. Her lies were always ridiculous, her plots were always just 'because we said so' and her having 43 mothers 57 identities, and an evil lair? Sure, why not. She's not a person, she's a trope. I figure they wanted to avoid another Chloé mistake(humanizing a hate sink) and just made her so unbelievable that 'Supervillain' is the only thing that fits. The fact that she's a teen girl and only the two teen girls are 'absolute evil' is a whole different discussion worth having bit it isn't this one.

Nathalie- Isn't actually fridged? Fridging involves the injury being for the trauma/motivation of the male/important character. Gabriel cared for like... An episode or two. Her condition is more to play for sympathy in the audience leading up to her 'redemption' and to give her a reason to turn on Gabe. It's 'poor Nathalie, look what she did for love! She's just so loving and good and forget about the fact she hired Cash to kill Sifu and killed Sentibug'

Cat Noir Crush-yeah, they murdered the lovesquare quickfast to get to Adrienette, then retconned in the traumaplot for several episodes. S5 really feels like a final season where they wanted to hit all the points instead of pacing them out. I'm guessing it was written before S6-8 were greenlit. Is it unfortunate? Yes. Elation's Marichat is basically my favorite part of S5.

Zoé- I've talked about her lots. Maybe not on tumblr? She's such a pointless character *who did not have to be* If all they needed was a blonde not-Chloé kinda bratty girl Aurore was *right there* to be tapped in. Unrequited crush on Marinette? Kagami. 'Protection' is basically the perfect setup for a Kagami based 'Adoration'. The *only* narrative purpose for introducing a 4th season half-sister into the Bourgeois family is to *be a catalyst for change* and I don't mean for the whiny rich white man. It even looked like Zoé might... Then they just did nothing with her. She is a character who exists only by what she carves out of other people's stories. The most interesting part of canon!Zoé is how her Wasp-namesake fits how she invaded and took over the hive like a parasite. She could have been so much more.

Cheating- they ignore *both* parties cheating in NYC. Luka drops Marinette off and you can still *see him out the bus window* when she starts gagaing at Adrien. Setting the NYC between seasons was such a weird choice. It was the only time they were both taken. Audrey's infidelity is one of those 'we are ignoring it because we also ignored how Chloé having a sister only a yr younger than her when we already showed her mother leaving a toddler Chloé while not looking pregnant is really weird' it's a hole they're just paving over. Bad? Yeah. Par for the course though.

Weird events-S5 is a mess of 'wouldn't it be cool if' and creator indulgences. Again, if it were a final season it kind of makes sense? I don't *like* a lot of the choices but I can see why you go wild with your finalé material. I expect a big reset for S6. They need to build up a new status quo and somehow break this 'utopia' they created. Utopias may be fun to live in, but they're very boring to watch. There's a reason Star Trek follows the people out on the fringes, not the prople hanging back chilling on post-scarcity earth.

These are all my opinions etc etc. feel free to tag me if you want to split any off to their own discussions.

There does seem to be a trend in the specific sect of this fandom that I circulate where people are only openly against writing decisions that impede Adrien's role in the story. Nothing was ever discussed on my dash about the following:

Lila's bizarre transition from a normal mean teenage girl (a strong narrative antagonist for Marinette's civilian conflict) to a weird Machiavellian criminal

Nathalie's (and Emilie's of course, but I'm saltier about it with Nathalie) role in the story being a prime example of a Fridged Woman

The way Marinette's long-coming crush on Cat Noir was tossed aside after two episodes

Zoe still not bringing anything to the narrative

The weird undiscussed presence of cheating in relationships in this whole show (Adrien apparently cheating on Kagami with Marinette in the NYC special, Audrey Bourgeois blatantly having cheated on her husband)

The increasingly bizarre events in this show that, to me, clearly just exist to make people go :O, not unlike how shows like Riverdale became increasingly bizarre over the course of their run in order to get viewers because they knew they couldn't grab viewers with their mediocre premise alone (Chloe becoming mayor, Felix and Kagami's weird little play, etc)

There's a lot more I wanted to add here, but figured were more my opinion than an actual Thing to be discussed.

Never saw any of this discussed in my circle of Tumblr, but I HAVE seen an absolute ton of discussion surrounding Adrien's screen time, Adrien's family dynamics, Adrien's role as a hero, Adrien's internal struggles, and how the writers apparently don't explore any of those things to their full potential.

And it makes me wonder why people are so fixated on him. Because I'm sorry to say this, but I've personally always seen him as a pretty unremarkable character. Don't misconstrue my words and say I said I don't like him, because I do like him. But I hardly consider him the most interesting character in the show.

My theory? He's just an easy character to fixate on, for the following reasons:

None of his struggles come from his financial, racial/cultural, or other kind of protected background, meaning discussions on his struggles don't have to be "difficult."

The fact that his primary antagonist is his father (as his father, and not as Hawk Moth) means fans can easily take the "I want to adopt him and give him a good home" route of character analysis

He's perpetually positive, meaning it doesn't require a lot of mental energy to like him-- he can just be a lovable "sunshine boy" to people.

On the rare occasion he IS upset, fans become obsessed, because who doesn't love more emotional depth?

When he's positive/nonplussed about something that he morally should be upset at, fans can easily explain it away as a result of his upbringing.

He's cute. There's no way to talk around this. He's got big green eyes and baby cheeks and flippy blond hair and a soft voice and cute habits like scratching his neck when he's nervous. The first three things are traits character designers often employ to get audiences to like their characters. The last two things are examples of things you can do to get people to subconsciously like you irl. This part is just psychology, and it makes me wonder if people would be affected by all the above points if he didn't look the way he does.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to like Adrien for any of the above reasons. I just want some people to think about their opinions of this show and ask themselves whether they feel as strongly about other writing decisions as they do about the ones that "hurt" Adrien, and, if they don't, why they feel so drawn to Adrien in the first place. Because it's definitely not because the show does him dirtier than everyone else.

[imultimouse]

I never come on here, but I wanted to discuss something since I've seen a couple of salt posts discussing Adrien's "sudden" shift of feelings towards Marinette in season 5, and I don't think some of you are understanding the whole lovesquare arc. Adrien has ALWAYS loved Marinette, ever since the umbrella scene. His feelings gradually grew more and more, but since he had already taken interest in Ladybug, he suppressed those feelings. This was the whole point of the "just a friend" phase. It was DENIAL, not genuine disinterest. If you go back and rewatch the show from the beginning, you'd notice that Adrien unconsciously behaves in a way that makes his crush on Marinette obvious. Ex:

Feeling uncomfortable kissing Chloé in season 1, but feeling perfectly comfortable with Marinette.

The constant heart eyes we got throughout the show.

He carries her lucky charm with him all the time, and he even made a gift especially for her

He called her his "everyday Ladybug", which we all know how much that means coming from him.

Effortlessly dancing romantically with her, TWICE.

Etc, etc. Keeping all that in mind, what happened in Puppeteer 2 isn't when he started DEVELOPING feelings, it's when he started REALIZING those feelings. He said it himself, the way he reacted to her going ahead and kissing him shocked him. Not to mention that in Chat Blanc, he straight up told her in his confession that he had always felt this way, he just didn't understand what he felt.

All their interactions thus far had Marinette somehow friendzone their encounters, so Adrien never had the chance to think about his own feelings, except in Weredad, but he was too preoccupied with his intense feelings for Ladybug to notice. And it's because of that, that after Marinette kissed him, he started noticing the similarities between her and Ladybug, causing his feelings to grow even further.

"You remind me of the girl I love."

Then, he started paying more attention to her, and noticed how she always cheers him up and makes him laugh, and is always there for him when he needs her.

Finally, we reach the season 4 finale, and he realizes that Marinette truly understands him for who he is, not the image he kept up, and it's THEN that he fully realizes there is something there, but he is too confused to know for sure, which is directly supported by his confession in Chat Blanc.

That is when Determination comes into play, and Adrien finally realizes what the butterflies in his stomach meant this entire time. This is also why that every time he discovers Marinette is Ladybug, he is instantly relieved and overwhelmed with joy, because that makes the two people he loves the most one person, and there is no more dilemma in his heart.

So this is it, a summary of Adrien's development of his feelings towards Marinette, which also explains why it's so sincere from his end. It's not sudden for sure. Yeah, it could have been written a lot better, but what do we expect from MLB writers anyway? If you've made it this far, thank you for reading, and let me know what you think.

[generalluxun]

I think one of the failures of the show is trying to portray chloe as this menacing opposition towards the protagonist either fisrt as an antagonist and later as a villain, but the problem is that she kinda isnt.

Like when has chloe ever won at just one of the conflicts she is ever present, she always loses it, no matter the stakes so its difficult to take her seriously, second as far as the shows establish, she doesnt have any skills or knowledge that lets her compete or surpass the rest of cast (and never seems to use her supposed ballet or other skills outside of specific circumstances that never amount to much) she uses her fathers (not hers) money and influence and is literally nothing without that.

In chloe goes back in time AU this could be an important plotpoint, when she took the ring from chat noir, broke her akumatization and run away with it, that was hers and ONLY HERS victory, within the framework of how she sees her life know, this is truly her triumph, and only leaning into it (by beign purrge) she has value, otherwise chloe sees herself as nothing.

Poor plagg is gonna have his hands full with this, if he gets even a simple understanding of chloe current state, he wouldnt want to leave her even for all the cheese in the world, because this kitten needs him ASAP.

yeah, the canon had this weird mix of trying to make Chloe out to be an actual threat but also using her as the buffoon. You can't really have it both ways. She was best as the buffoon who never did serious damage. When they tried to make her out to be a 'real villain' it just didn't work with what they had set up. Lila fits as a 'real villain' because she never loses anything important. Even being 'caught' amounted to nothing. She discarded the personality of Lila without a second thought and walked away undeterred.

Chloe WOULD have thought of taking the ring as a victory in Chloe goes back in time AU, but then it was Adrien. Yes she's angry at Adrien, but in a different way than she is angry at Cat Noir. So when one became the other it turned into a bit of an emotional implosion. Victory turned to ash, and now he's got new ways to be angry, ways she hasn't had time and doesn't have the experience to understand.

She's running on instinct, and she's never done that before. It's terrifying.

[coccinelledemoiselle]

I watched the back half of season 5 in like two sittings and it felt like a fucking fever dream

I tagged spoilers just in case but spoilers ahead.

The Finale/last five or so episodes felt insane. Chloe straight up got dumber, all the Lila nonsense just to reveal she's some rando, the bit with Émilie and Amelie being like.... pregnant with sentimonster children?? The lack of explanation of what the fuck Kagami being "made for Adrien" (but apparently actually for Felix) was all about, the W H O L E Luka thing (leaving and then traveling and becoming a monk?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!!), Marinette literally trusting the villain for a single second (she should have learned by now like oh my god), and the Jojo-ass "This is a new universe where the other stuff never happened but one person remembers it in its entirety because they slipped through the cracks"????

Honestly I could go on for days about this

I was re-watching the season, two ending of miraculous ladybug, and I think it was far better than season five ending

Season 2 does have the most hopeful Finale, and it’s the only Finale where you could argue it was a win for the heroes.

Season 3 finale could be argued as a stalemate, but Team Hawkmoth got more information and fixed the Peacock thus becoming more of a threat, while team Ladybug lost an ally.

Season 4 Finale was a win for Hawkmoth/monarch since he got a ton of miraculous. But it was at least more hopeful as it showed Paris fighting With Ladybug. It is my personal fave finale.

And Season 5 finale… the less said the better. I’d rather not go into it

[pinkandbluewrites]

Adrien knows Marinette's identity...

Hey guys, I believe that Adrien Agreste knows Marinette Dupain-Cheng is Ladybug. I have evidence that I have gathered and analysed. Believe what you want. I'm happy to hear rebuttals, but after all is said and done, I really think you will believe me.

Okay, so it started in Troublemaker. That was when Adrien first suspected that Marinette could be Ladybug. So, at the beginning of the episode, Adrien sees all the pictures in Marinette’s room and assumes that she has a crush on him. As Chat Noir, he goes into Mari's room, and LB is being very weird and telling him, 'They can take the tour later'. LB gets defensive, and Chat Noir is like, “Wow, lots of pictures,” blah blah blah. Later, when Trouble maker steals one of Ladybug's earrings, half of her face is exposed, and that’s when Chat can see half of her face right.

Chat Noir landed by the window.

This is where Marinette was - and the window is over to the back right.

She is detransforming away from Chat Noir, but then she turns around and grabs her earring, now facing him, to put it back in.

She is side-eyeing so hard lmao maybe looking at Chat Noir?

If Chat Noir was looking, he had a clear shot of seeing her side profile, though not completely clear because her hand was slightly in the way. However, he can see her eyes, nose, and mouth, which can't be completely covered by the quantum masking at that point.

Chat Noir then walks up to her, and says, "That was a close call,"

This can be interpreted in two ways, "I almost found out who you were" or "Hawkmoth almost got your earrings."

I think Marinette interpreted it as the second one because when he says, "Certainly not how I dreamed we'd share our secret identities."

This is her reaction:

Then Chat says, "Oh no, not like that" which doesn't seem very reassuring, but it convinces Marinette that he doesn't know her identity yet, because this is how she reacts:

Notice how awkward Chat Noir looks? He doesn't look very reassuring. To me, the vibe of this scene is just strange, but it makes sense if that small glimpse of Ladybug's face made Chat Noir begin to wonder if she really could be Marinette. When you see a small glimpse of someone you think you recognise, you wonder if it is actually them or someone who just looks similar, and your brain is tricking you; most of the time, you do a double take and realise it is just someone who looks similar, Chat didn't get the opportunity to double take, so he was left wondering.

However, I think he tests his curiosity in the next scene...

In the locker room.

When Mari arrives, and Adrien scares her, he is smug, smirking, etc. It makes sense because he thinks she likes him, but Adrien has never acted like that before. It was almost like he was acting as he does as Chat Noir, and who is the one person who knows how he acts as Chat Noir? Ladybug...

He's very overconfident when usually he is just 'smiles' and 'kind gestures,' and he is getting in her personal space, smirking at her, and downright being flirtatious.

Ok, I want to point out that he looks at her side profile, which you should remember for later because, in the upcoming episodes, he does it a lot. Which may be him trying to see Ladybug in her or the glimpses of Ladybug he thought he saw. Anyway, what really gets me is what he says next. I try so hard to understand what it could mean, if anything but the only conclusion I can come to is that what he says, is him trying to test Marinette.

"...and photographs of me everywhere, even in the most unlikely places.” 

Then Marinette giggled and went, “Yeah, who would have a photograph of you under a bed.” 

And he’s just like “Right.” 

First of all, Chat Noir is the only one who saw the photo under the bed “in the most unlikely places.” It’s almost like he’s alluding to his secret identity to see how she reacts. If she was LB, she would know Chat saw where they were, right? Like he’s almost admitting it?????

Anyway, I think Marinette was a little dense with that scene, but I think if anything it's proof that Adrien really thinks Marinette could be Ladybug.

I don't think he is 100% sure at this point, but I really think he is considering it.

Moving on, when Adrien walks out of the locker room, he is looking back at her:

Then in the end card:

HE IS LOOKING AT LADYBUG!!!!!

They could have chosen any scene, any picture of Adrien, but they chose the one where he is looking back at her, almost analytically if you will, and have Ladybug follow his line of sight. I'm sorry, but with this many clues, there's no way that I'm just reading into it. Even if I'm wrong in the end, I'm literally right.

The evidence does not stop here.

Multimouse. Now, many people believe that this is what really got Adrien to stop believing or kill the idea that Marinette could be Ladybug.

I'm sorry, but no, you are wrong.

Okay, so we know the jist. Plagg and Tikki get caught (almost) by Miss Mendeleev, and she is on the reality TV show. Adrien and Marinette recognise the drawings for their kwamis and realise they must have done something, and this is probably bad. so Marinette leaves, and Adrien sees Marinette leaving and is like, 'huh?'

Surprised Adrien fr.

ANYWAYS the next scene is dumb, like hella dumb, cause Adrien sees Marinette on the phone, walking through the locker room, and is deep in thought and Plagg interrupts and then he's like...

"What if Marinette were Ladybug?"

The way this is worded makes it seem like this isn't the first time Adrien has considered this... Hmm. Hence Troublemaker.

Plagg goes “Marinetteee? Nahhh!”

First of all, great job Plagg you’re an actor. Lmao, not very convincing.

“Besides, you shouldn’t be trying to find out more. If you discovered ladybugs' true identity, you’d have to give your miraculous back! So, if I were you, I’d act like nothing's going on! That’s what I always do when there’s a problem, and it’s always worked out just fine for me." 

Okay, so first of all, Plagg, really? He is essentially saying, like ok, you found out, but just pretend you don’t know anything so you can keep your miraculous.

If Adrien was using his logical brain, which I think he was because he agreed with plagg, he would have thought the same. If it were anyone else, Plagg probably wouldn't have said that because there would be no risk of him losing his miraculous unless he was guessing right.

And Adrien goes, “Maybe I should listen to you this time.” 

But of course, as the curious kitty he is, he still asks LB when he is there. 

“This kwami Buster villain, she’s from Francois Dupont High School, right?" 

(Note this part for later)

Ladybug shuts him down, saying, “Remember the rules chat noir… blah blah” 

Okay, can I point out the fact that if Chat Noir thinks Marinette is Ladybug, when she detransforms cause of kwamibuster and shouts 'No, don't look over here', don't you think he would be hearing Marinette's voice at that point because she is already on his mind, so wouldn't that be proof enough for him, anyways, continuing on...

Later on, they both lose their miraculous and Adrien is in the banana suit. The next thing he sees is a bunch of kwami's charging toward him, and one stops in front of him, with multimouse on its back.

Conveniently, it is the original multimouse without an extra miraculous.

Marinette says, “Pssst chat noir is that you?” 

And he goes, “Ladybug just when I think I finally know you, you manage to surprise me again.” 

And she says, “That’s very sweet of you, but I’m not ladybug,” and points to her earrings, “I’m Multimouse ladybug sent me to fetch your miraculous, to defeat kwamibuster.” 

Adrien ends up giving Multimouse his ring. I truly think this is because he still believes that Ladybug/Multimouse is the same person, aka Marinette. (I don't think he would have given the ring so easily if not, because look how he reacted with Alya as Ladybug in season 5; he is trusting but only toward Ladybug.)

I believe this because this is his face when Ladybug drops down in front of him beside Multimouse.

Agree to disagree, but he definitely thought that Multimouse was Ladybug.

So, he must believe that Ladybug is still Marinette, and Multimouse has to be someone else.

Furthermore, this is his face when Multimouse ends up being Marinette:

Literally flabbergasted.

Ok. So, I have a few points to cover here. I really think this would have left him very confused.

I think Adrien is a trusting person; he likes to see the best in people. Multimouse told him that she wasn't Ladybug, yet he was shocked when he realised that she wasn't. If I may, this is what I think could have gone through Chat Noir's head:

First, if Ladybug was detransformed, she'd go to the guardian for help to get a miraculous. Now, she couldn't transform into Ladybug, so logically, she would use another miraculous for herself because disguising herself and finding a random civilian for help would be a lot of effort (especially when transformed like, come on). So he probably didn't understand why Multimouse wanted to cover up the fact she was Ladybug, but as Adrien does, he likes giving the benefit of the doubt.

Second, in the illusion, there were no kwami's. There's no way there was enough time for all the kwami's to return to Master Fu between being realised and Chat entering the scene; logically, they would stay with Ladybug. Chat literally saw them earlier; Multimouse was being carried by them. I'm sure he thought a lot about this because Marinette not being Ladybug would be hard for him to accept, so I do think he would have picked up on this eventually.

Third, he didn't go in for a pound when he always does. It may just be the scapegoat for the poor writing because obviously if he went in for a pound it, the illusion would fall away, but he didn't. The only times prior where he didn't go in for a pound it was to take Kagami away when he was falling for her and to hug Ladybug, so the fact he didn't is strange, almost like he knew...

ALSO, Ladybug never convinced him that she doesn't go to Francois Dupont High School, only that Marinette isn't Ladybug, which I'm pretty sure she did the opposite of. It's almost ironic, if you ask me, that as soon as Chat Noir has the slightest suspicion that Marinette is Ladybug, bam, she somehow proves there's no way she ever could be. The thing is, Marinette didn't know Chat Noir was suspicious of her, so why did she need to pull a 180 on him?

Also, if Marinette 'isn't Ladybug', then how would you explain why she left early to go to the toilet? It was suspicious; it literally made Adrien think that she was Ladybug. If I were in the situation, I would think, okay, perhaps Marinette is friends with Ladybug; it would make sense because Ladybug trusted her with a miraculous when she was detransformed - but that doesn't explain away why Marinette would detransform in front of her and Chat Noir, if they were close friends than she would know not to do that, so something obviously doesn't add up.

Can I also point out the fact that Marinette, after she took of the necklace said “I’m so clumsy”

What was the first thing that LB ever said to chat noir? 

“I’m mar-a mar-a madly clumsy, I am so clumsy…” 

I really think Adrien figured this out because of how he acts in the next few episodes...

(Side note: I just wanted to point out that Marinette is so silly because she convinces herself that Chat Noir doesn't go to her school cause he refers to it as an elementary school when earlier he literally said,' Francois Dupont High School')

Anyways, Adrien was super convinced that Marinette was Ladybug, so much so to the point where this stunt didn't actually convince him she wasn't. How do I know, you may ask? Well, I will get to that, but first, we have an obstacle.

Puppeteer is in between Kwamibuster and the episode with my final proof.

So, how is it that we had to watch that disastrous episode and all the events in it if Adrien knew? Well, let's break it down.

Okay, so throughout the episode Adrien is trying to find a way to cheer Marinette up because he thinks she doesn't like him at all.

Adrien leaves it to the last minute before he jumps back and says, 'Eternity sounds like a long time,' it makes it sound like he is rejecting her right, but we later find out that this is supposedly when Adrien first started having feelings for Marinette because he enjoyed their 'kiss/almost kiss' so I think he was just freaking out because he's always thought that Marinette only sees him as a friend. He's never been reciprocated by Ladybug, so he doesn't know what it feels like to actually be flirted with by the girl he loves BAHAHA anyways this is my take on this.

Then what of the scene in the car? You may ask, well, look at it like this. This is how Adrien is looking at Marinette:

PLEASE

"The girl that I'm in love with doesn't like them either."

I know he is referring to them as two different people, but he's supposed to because Plagg told him to; he has to.

Ok, the evidence you've all been waiting for is plain as day. Chat Blanc.

When Marinette leaves the gift as Ladybug and Adrien sees, his first conclusion is that she is Ladybug. The evidence is right in his face, and because of the hearts, he realises that she loves him. Earlier, when the evidence was in his face, it was questionable, right? He wasn't 100% sure, but that little push of him catching Ladybug leaving a gift from Marinette made him sure.

The fact that she was multimouse didn't saude his made-up mind. he could have easily said, "No, Ladybug must be dropping off a gift for Marinette; she was multimouse."

She never convinced him when she made the illusion.

Obviously, it never happened. Adrien never made the conclusion because Marinette erased the timeline, but that means he's still sitting on the fence, waiting for that last little push for him to finally be able to confess he knows her identity. Do you notice the number of times that Adrien tries to get a reveal in seasons 1-3, then suddenly, in seasons 4 and 5, he stops? Yeah, he is upset they can't 'share' identities, but he never pushes. In season 4, he finally starts showing stronger feelings toward Marinette up to the point he starts to pursue her in season 5.

Do you remember in 'lies' when Adrien longingly looks at the lucky charm bracelet because Kagami thinks he loves Marinette now, not her, and she dumps him? Why does he look at the bracelet like that if it is Ladybug he loves. BECAUSE HE KNOWS THEY'RE THE SAME PERSON!!

In dearest family, when ladybug says the akumatised object is at home and he’s like ??? And she says I mean at their home.  

Ephemeral. Well, looking at that scene, he wasn’t even surprised to see Ladybug change into Marinette, he was just blushing and shocked that she was actually revealing, and yeah, he says, “I just found out that one of my best friends is also the girl I love and admire the most” 

Can we keep in mind that Adrien admitted that he started liking Marinette at the statue scene (He says this in season 5), right - so how is he calling her his best friend when he knew all along he liked her a little more than friends yk, because I think this could be interpreted in two ways Ladybug is his best friend, but so is Marinette, Ladybug is the girl he loves, but so is Marinette. So I think he is just saying that because he’s finally able to combine his best friend and someone he loves as one person… 

OK, now on to season 5. 

Adrien realised his feelings for Marinette, and he said it changed when she kissed him as a statue so how could Adrien know that she is Ladybug if he only started liking Marinette at that point when he’s loved Ladybug all along. 

Well, I think Adrien just decides to separate the two of them (Marinette and Ladybug) for secret identities. As mentioned before, I believe he knew she was Ladybug but was still sitting on the fence and choosing not to believe it.

I will admit there are some things that Chat noir says to Ladybug that don’t make 100% sense right. Chat said that Ladybug helped him realise his true feelings for Marinette. 

First of all, did he not tell Marinette that he realised his feelings for her when they were in the Graven Wax Museum, and she kissed him, and he liked it. He is either contradicting himself or he is not telling the full story. 

If you think about it, if Adrien knows that Ladybug is Marinette, it was easy for him to just be in love with Ladybug because it was safe when he believed that Marinette loved Luka and not him you know, but toward the end of season four (Which is very fast paced) he starts getting closer to Marinette right, and ‘realises’ his feelings because she’s always been there for him. But Adrien knew his feelings for her all along, and it just took him a little push for him to finally confess it to Marinette and start pursuing her, that push was Marinette repeatedly showing him that she was there for him, so I think a part of him began to believe that Marinette did love him, so he decided he would try to be with her. 

I know it may sound a bit far fetched, but there are some things that happen that just can’t be ignored. 

Adrien was desperately in love with Ladybug like hopelessly, and he just gives it up, to me it felt weird like he suddenly switched. With Marinette, she always loved Adrien even when she was pursuing Chat Noir, she was pushing Adrien away because she didn’t want to confront the reality that he liked her back, because she was scared. So yes, she does pursue Chat Noir for a short while, and personally I think it’s obvious that she loves him too, and has all along but we’re not getting into that. Anyway, Adrien is in full denial about his feelings toward Ladybug and I’m sorry the sudden switch just feels completely odd, like what the hell????

You know that part (I forgot the episode) I believe it is one of the last 5 of season 5 where Plagg says “Marinette is the most amazing girl in the world,” well, that is exactly what Adrien used to say about Ladybug… 

The switch up is just crazy to me, and the only way it makes sense in my head is if Adrien knows that he’s not ‘switching up’ he’s just pursuing the other side of Ladybug. 

SO there is three times I want to point out where I think it’s obvious that he knows. 

The first is when Nino tells Marinette about him and Alya being Rena Rouge and Carapace and confesses he told Adrien, and Adrien is like ‘innocent smile, wide eyes’ and looks at Marinette. Marinette is mad and is like “ADRIEN KNOWS? ALYA DID YOU KNOW ADRIEN KNOWS?” 

Im sorry but that scene is just so like Adrien looking at his lady, like whoops sorry my lady didn’t mean to find out, I feel like if Marinette was just a civilian she wouldn’t have been mad like that right, so how come Adrien wasn’t confused by her reaction??? She was annoyed, and yeah Adrien was shocked too when he found out but he had the reason that it was because he was doubting Ladybug’s character, but adrien doesn’t know any reason why Marinette would be mad by this, its just so like coded that adrien knows and he realises oh shit marinates not gonna like this YOU KNOW !/!?!?!? 

Anyways the second point is that in the finale when Adrien is about to tell Marinette his identity, he says ‘Time to drop the masks’ MASKS not Mask!!!! Like I was like why did they choose to say masks and not just mask???? It doesn’t make sense yk…. 

Ok and also Adrien’s nightmare, it was him as Anti-Chat or whatever, and he was holding Ladybug, and she was a statue, I was watching it and I was wondering where is Marinette in his nightmare, huh, why is she not there? The girl who he is supposed to love more than anything isn’t there… little does he know, she is there, in his arms, or perhaps he does know, he knows that he killed Ladybug/Marinette. That’s why he stepped back from Marinette’s balcony and couldn’t tell her. He couldn’t drop the ‘masks’ yet. 

Anyways, this is my theory. Feel free to comment what you think. 

[xwonderlandresidentx]

Just had someone tell me that Marinette telling Chloe and Audrey that they should bond over being toxic and entitled was okay because she was being sarcastic, and I just gotta say..... no? that doesn't make it better??

Thankfully this person was pretty civil, and open to having an actual conversation about that scene, and by the end of it we came to agree on some things.

But I still wanna blog about it, because I have a lot of feelings.

Even if Marinette was saying it to be ironic, which still isn't an interpretation that I'm fully on board with, but for the sake of argument, even if she was, that's still a horrible thing to say given the circumstances!

Marinette doesn't have to like Chloe, but if her first reaction to seeing a girl her age on the verge of tears while she asks her mother "Why don't you love me?" is to have a laugh and say "Well, you both suck, so you should be glad to be stuck together!" then that is terrible, and petty, and vicious!

If for some reason you wanna have Marinette banter with Chloe about it, at least wait until she isn't in the most vulnerable position possible, baring her deepest trauma while confronting her abuser.

Either way you slice it, Marinette had no right to say what she did! She was either giving harmful advice that she wasn't qualified to give, or she was being downright cruel.