#lore discussion

[gaygreenultimatecatboy69]

With the end of 2.5, I realized just how much the Yaoqing trio needed each other.

Jiaoqiu needs people who he can feel like he can help, who he can feel like he makes a difference for. Without them, he loses all motivation for life.

Feixiao needs people who she can be herself with. People who she can feel accepted and welcomed by. Without them, she has a hard time fully accepting her history.

Moze needs people who know his past and accept him for it. People who see his past, accept it, and help him through it. Without them, he sinks into the past and lets it overtake him.

This was just a little thought I had, tell me if I accidentally mischaracterized any of them (⁠*⁠´⁠ω⁠｀⁠*⁠)

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I know you’ve said in the past that you don’t think switching marinette and adrien’s kwamis would solve anything writing-wise, but do you think having the kwamis switch personalities would do the trick? marinette still has ladybug/creation, but with plagg’s personality, and adrien still has black cat/destruction, but with tikki’s personality. thoughts?

No, I don't think that this would fix anything because it's approaching the problem as if the issue is some flaw in the show's base setup. As if you have to make major changes for Miraculous to work. My stance has always been that the base setup is totally fine. The problem is the execution. In fact, I think that the current kwami personalities are a great choice, the problem is that they're not being used well.

Marinette has a pretty strong personality. She knows what she wants, but has a tendency to get caught up in her own head and a tendency to make snap judgments. Those tendencies make her occasionally fail to consider alternate paths or points of view. That means that what she needs most is someone who will make her consider those alternatives. Someone who will be direct, talk her out of mental spirals, and keep her focused. A voice of reason, if you will. Tikki is perfectly suited to that role. She is not the kind of kwami to sit passively by. Plagg, on the other hand, would just encourage Marinette along the path of glorious chaos or let her do whatever she wants so long as he gets his cheese. While I think that could be genuinely fun to watch, it's not really benefiting Marinette much and this ask appears to be treating the Kwamis as potential mentors, so I will, too.

Adrien is a little more complex. Given his rather depressing home life, I can see why someone would want to pair him with loving Tikki over more-detached Plagg, but I'll explain why I think that Plagg is the better fit IF you actually let him mentor.

Adrien is a passive follower. He never fights for himself and he bows to authority at the drop of a hat. While those traits are arguably strengths for his role on the battlefield, they're not great for him in his day-to-day life. There's nothing wrong with being more passive and more of a follower, but he needs to learn that he can make his own choices, too. The best way to do that is to give him the kind of mentor who doesn't just hand him the answers. Someone a little chaotic whose style is subtle pushes and not just handing him a possible path to take because Adrien would absolutely just take the suggested path. Plagg is perfectly suited to taking on this style of mentorship and it is a crime that the show never let him shine.

Example scenario: Adrien feeling left out in season four. (Note the following is a very rough draft)

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Tikki: You need to talk to Ladybug and tell her how you feel! Ask her when she's free to meet up! Adrien: Okay, what should I say? Tikki: Tells him what to say.

This is solid advice, but Tikki is just handing Adrien an answer. He's probably not going to learn from this and may even flub up his talk with Ladybug without Tikki walking him through it because he's just doing what he's told and not coming to this path on his own. Contrast this to Plagg in his ultimate form (by which I mean mentor Plagg, not eldritch horror Plagg):

Adrien: I feel like Ladybug doesn't need me anymore. She keeps calling in other heroes! Plagg: And you're left watching from the sidelines every time? Adrien: No, not always. Plagg: So she's sharing the cheese now? Giving you slices instead of the whole wheel? Adrien: yeah, I guess. Plagg: why? Adrien: what do you mean why? Plagg: why'd she start sharing? Adrien: I don't know. Plagg: Huh. Too bad. If only there was a way you could find out. I guess it will remain a mystery. Adrien: (annoyed) Ladybug knows! Plagg: And? Adrien: And... I guess I could ask her? Plagg: I mean, if you started sharing my cheese, I'd be demanding answers! Adrien: I'd never share your cheese! Plagg: You promise? Never? Not even if you were starving? Adrien: Well, I mean, I guess I might if it was an emergency or something, but I wouldn't share it without a good reason! Plagg: And Ladybug's different? Adrien: What do you mean? Plagg: She does things without a good reason? Adrien: Of course not! She's brilliant! She always has a plan! Plagg: Interesting. Might want to keep that in mind for your little talk. Adrien: (after a thoughtful pause) So you think I should talk to her? Plagg: Is there another way for you to find out what's going on? Adrien: No. Plagg: Then why are you bothering me? Sounds like you only have one option!

Note that Plagg never gives Adrien a clear answer here. He just asks questions in a bored manner and lets Adrien think things through. He's guiding Adrien to a specific answer, but making Adrien really think about it, better prepping him for the coming talk. This mentorship style would drive Marinette crazy, but I think it would do wonders for Adrien! The difference is that, in this situation, Marinette probably already knows what she needs to do and is just avoiding it while Adrien genuinely needs help realizing that he can speak up. This doesn't mean that Adrien should never get direct, clear advice, I just wouldn't make that the standard as it's not helping him with his passivity.

All of this is a big part of why I love Plagg so much. That little cheese gremlin is just brimming with potential and it saddens me greatly that canon will never give it to us. They gave him the perfect personality, they just missed the fine details of how that personality should function as a mentor.

[house-of-mirrors]

Charm told me to go look at the Rat Market and whoa... can't believe they did nothing while we were out to zee hunting lifebergs

They made the freakin... three witches from Shakespeare into rats akshkshdjdj

Three aspects of Hecate... three fates, three furies... the number 3 in fairy tales... the rule of three (a motif appears and on the third time it is relevant)... Hunter's Keep... three sevens... the number nine in the discordance and the inferno... so interesting. Three bodies, the sun, earth, and moon, aligned for an eclipse.

Detailed analysis under the cut!

The Absent Rat references something from Irem (which also to me suggests this was written by Bruno... we do talk about Bruno)

Revisionist history, of course. Well, we know from Mr Menagerie in skies that there was a world before the Judgements. I wonder what that was. The colonization theme, and also the theme from cosmic horror that "there is always something greater."

The Erased Rat.

The Sequence - The Great Chain. And it was at this moment I fully realized what the name New Sequence implies, as if I didn't already know the theme: it's just a new tyrant.

Also the watchdog line is doing things to me

The Hollow Rat of course references parabola. Storm-toss'd kin, I wonder if that references The Prophet Exile in the Well of Wonders. And surely there are other wells with parabolan criminals.

Iambic Pentameter <3

[dovorionbird]

The Void

My bro got time to flirt but got no time to comfort his children

[xiaomainlmao]

Discussing the Fatui and the "war"

Disclaimer: Extremely long, badly put thoughts because I'm not sure how to word this

The more I think about it, the more questions I ask about the Fatui, their strengths, their ideals, and their leaders.

In the Capitano animated short that we just got, they just reinforced that only people of Natlan were being supported by the Night Kingdom during the war. Even those without Ancient Names were fully revitalised.

On the other hand, the Fatui didn't even have a single advantage- neither during the fight, nor after. And yet, under The Captain, they were willing to give their lives. The Captain's underlings fully supported, acknowledged and admired their Harbinger. They all were willing to give their lives for Natlan's cause.

After the archon quest, my friend asked "But why did the Tsaritsa just allow The Captain to abandon the final gnosis and fight for Natlan instead? How did The Captain get the right to drop the Tsaritsa's goals for another nation's?"

Is that how the Tsaritsa shows her love for her people? "She's a god with no love left for her people." And yet she's supposed to be the god symbolising love, like how the anemo archon symbolises freedom, electro archon symbolises eternity and so on. Maybe she's no longer a gentle god, but one that is only marching towards her goal? And the only way she shows "love" is by respecting the Harbingers' individual morales?

Mavuika said that the Tsaritsa won't give up, another Harbinger is probably on their way for the gnosis. The story of Natlan is not yet over, only Natlan's war is.

Another war is coming.

Or rather, it has "already begun".

The Tsaritsa, the Abyss, are they both after the "throne in the sky"? The one that Vennessa ascended to?

Actually wait, Varka wasn't the only one forgotten during Natlan... Vennessa was too. Isn't she originally from Natlan, a child of "lady Murata, the Lady of Fire"?

But I digress, else I'll end up talking about Mondstadt, especially Venti if I start now.

Back to the Fatui...

How are soldiers appointed to their Harbingers? If they're appointed randomly, wouldn't some of them feel out of place if their ideals don't match their leader's? And if they get to choose, then how many would willingly choose each Harbinger as their leader?

There's Childe, the battle freak but with a strong morale when it comes to those he cares about (and the traveller has been added to that list too, so we know that Childe is likely to support us when we confront the other Harbingers).

There's The Captain, a man "worthy of respect" (Arlecchino) and with a great sense of justice.

There's The Doctor, a twisted scholar from the Akademiya. His "parts" live everywhere- in the past, present and the future.

There's The Knave, who raises orphans who are to join the Fatui when they're older. Does she receive recruits from outside the House of the Hearth as well? She's probably one of the few (if not the only) Harbingers to have members from outside Snezhnaya, due to her adopting children from all over Teyvat.

And so on and so forth...

Each Harbinger's ideals are respected by the cryo archon. All of them pursue their own goals, while also assisting in the Tsaritsa's grand scheme.

The Fatui members are either the most cunning, the cruellest, heatless being you'll meet, or the most determined, steadfast people you'll encounter.

Katarina, Victor, Lyudochka...

Hell even Lyney, Lynette, Freminet, and the other members of the Hearth that we met during Arlecchino's quest, the members that were allowed to leave the House of the Hearth by "dying".

Just what kind of organisation is the Fatui? How much more complicated are the relations within them? They clearly don't trust each other, so how will we trust anyone when we get to Snezhnaya? "A conflict with the Fatui is unavoidable the moment you step foot into Snezhnaya." We've both fought with (Natlan) and against the Fatui (Inazuma). We helped the Fatui in the Chasm, we helped Viktor in Mondstadt, but had The Fair Lady killed after a duel.

Will we, perchance, get to meet the Fontaine siblings + Arlecchino + Childe in Snezhnaya? Will The Captain's subordinates be on our side?

And what happened to The Balladeer's subordinates when he was erased from Irminsul? Were they randomly placed under various other Harbingers? How will they explain the absence of the 6th Harbinger?

So many questions... 😮‍💨

[missycolorful]

I know there's often complaints about the c!Syndicate and how they didn't really do a whole lot, that their existence almost felt pointless because they didn't do anything. Not even regarding how Techno's condition and then his passing severely affected this storyline, I think these complaints sorta misses the point of what the Syndicate became and why people like this group so much.

Like, yes c!Techno initially created it in the aftermath of Doomsday, a way to ensure no governments were being formed or used to hurt or corrupt others. He gathered others who shared the same beliefs. They had even gone to Snowchester to ensure that nothing suspicious was going on. And before his passing, cc!Technoblade had wanted to work on that plot involving Cyberknife, to give the Syndicate story a bit more meat. Which would've been great, yes.

But then you look, and you have all these moments of them just... they're just bonding; if not as a group, at least in sections: the streams of Technoblade and Phil connecting with Ranboo, Techno and Ranboo becoming mentor and mentee, Technoblade's birthday party. And then you hear how the Syndicate really mattered to these characters: how Niki was beginning to heal around those who made her voice feel heard, Ghostboo saying that Phil and Techno did care for and love Ranboo, Technoblade outright stating he had friends now thanks to the Syndicate.

And then there's the last Syndicate stream, which I think also sums this up well. There's no Syndicate meeting, no talks of taking down any governments. It was Philza and Niki making a cake. It was Philza panicking over hearing voices, and Niki being a physical presence for him when he seemed to be lacking one at the time. It was Kristin finding the members of the Syndicate and taking them someplace safe. The Syndicate made it to the End, alive and not necessarily okay now, but someday.

And it's just... yes, I would've loved to see more concrete stories of the Syndicate combating corrupted governments and tyrants. But just because they didn't serve their initial purpose as much as we anticipated, does not mean that this group coming together was pointless. If anything their story is a solid example of fighting against a constant narrative in the server; the cycle of power and revenge.

Cause I think about Las Nevadas. People who banded together who, for the most part, did not make deep connections or find comradery. Or even if they did, things fell apart (only Foolish really stayed with Quackity by the end of the Las Nevadas lore). All because Quackity lost himself in his quest for, well, power and revenge. Las Nevadas could've been more than Quackity's need for control and power, but it was never able to reach that point.

Then you look at the Syndicate. Where from the start of the Syndicate's creation, Techno made sure everyone in the Syndicate was equal, that no one was in control of another. Where they never sought violence, wanting to only resort to drastic actions if they believed a location was a threat to others. Where they celebrated Technoblade's birthday and took pictures and had cake and were just friends. I just think there's something a bit profound, intentional or otherwise, in how the Syndicate may have tragically been underutilized, but the group wasn't just an anarchist group. It was a group of people hurt by a nation coming together and not actively seeking any goal toward gaining power or control over others. Yes, they wanted to fight against power. But they also wanted to just... be.

Just something I think about when of the few who managed to survive the Dream SMP, the ones who managed to escape with their lives were the ones who formed this anarchist group, a group that people say didn't do much, and... yeah, they're right, but isn't that a good thing?

[scribe-of-ariel]

Another beautiful breakdown of the themes and relationships in Legacy of Kain by Strictly Fantasy.

I especially like their take on Kain and Raziel’s relationship. How Kain’s betrayal of Raziel was so much worse than what he had experienced, because of the loyalty Raziel had previously shown him. How it differs from how Kain was betrayed.

How Raziel benefited from Kain’s mentoring, even if it did result in such a brutal betrayal. And the interesting antagonistic dynamic following the betrayal. One that I think did come full circle and was resolved at the end.

The comparison between the two is very interesting.

I don’t think there will ever a be a game series that captures my imagination as much as Legacy of Kain.

[epicthecandydragon]

Nobody ever talks about how Bettel has claws. Or the fact that he’s most likely corrupted and that’s why his fingertips look frostbitten.

Also this means that every member of Vanguard deals with corruption in some form. And that they all undermine the core mission of Guild TEMPUS by existing.

[anotherdragonbird]

Why I think the common perception of “Kiryu keeps running away” is incorrect

In this thread (or essay I guess) I will go through most of the games one by one to talk about the examples I've seen brought up for Kiryu's tendency to ‘run away’. 

My thesis boils down to: there's two different kinds of “running”. One is Kiryu thinking he's taking responsibility for something he's blaming himself for. The other is him taking responsibility for Haruka and his own happiness and basically an act of emancipation from Kazama.

Yakuza 0

So far I have not actually seen people bring up examples for Y0 actually. But Kiryu is a very different character here. At this point - at least at the beginning - he's still believing in the Yakuza. He doesn't feel like he has something to repent for yet. This changes through the game, especially with Tachibana’s death. If I'm missing anything here, let me know and I will add it to the list.

Yakuza (Kiwami)

Heads up that I only played Kiwami and not the original Yakuza, but since the story and the main plot points are the same, this shouldn’t really matter.

Kiryu taking the fall for Nishiki 

Personally I don't see this as running away at all, but I've seen Kiryu blamed for the consequences (especially Nishiki’s downfall and even his death and Daigo joining the Tojo Clan because he's so shocked by Kiryu supposedly killing his father) and it being called ‘running away’, so here we go, especially because it’s the first time we see Kiryu “running”. 

This is a very good example of Kiryu taking the blame/taking responsibility, because he basically thinks he's responsible - here for Nishiki (who's his kyodai and can't leave his sister behind) and Yumi (blaming himself, because he should have been there to prevent all of this from happening and probably even thinking this happened because of Yumi's connection to him). 

And in a way this is also a way out for him. For me the beginning of the game (I played it after 0) feels extremely depressing. Because Kiryu feels completely disenchanted with the Yakuza. To me it felt like at this point he was living this life because of other people and their expectations. He's climbing the ranks because he feels like he owes that to Kazama and he can't leave Nishiki. He gives Yumi the ring because that's what Reina and Yumi seem to expect him to do. Taking the blame for Nishiki is him taking action for himself, therefore an act of freedom (it's even the opposite of what especially Kazama would want him to do) and the very first example of Kiryu's self sacrificial nature when it comes to taking responsibility for others and the clan, thinking it's the only solution. It’s a pattern we see with Kiryu again and again: he’s taking the blame, thinking the only and best way out is to sacrifice himself. It’s not always what’s actually best for him, the situation or the people around him, but it’s the opposite of running, it’s facing the responsibility he thinks he has head on.

Kiryu resigning as chairman, giving it to Terada instead 

And here we go with a great example of “running” as a form of emancipation. It's one of the few times where Kiryu is actually selfish and not taking responsibility for the Tojo, but something more important and more personal instead. And I honestly think it's the best choice he ever made. Because while he's not taking responsibility for the Tojo, he's got something more important now: Haruka. He's responsible for a child and he obviously does not want this child to grow up the way he did. He knows he can't be a good father if he’s chairman. 

So why is it also a little bit selfish: it's literally his only way out of the Yakuza without consequences. It's not an organization you can simply *leave*. The people who held him in the Yakuza and in Kamurocho (Yumi, Reina, Nishiki, Kazama) are gone. And the only thing that's worth staying alive for is Haruka who needs him and she needs him *out of the Yakuza*. And it's his only way to be free from the Yakuza without making the Clan an enemy by being exiled or banished. Because he's the boss. You can argue about Kiryu's choice (Terada), but who else was he to choose? Majima to him was an extremely powerful man, but Kiryu has no reason to believe at this point that he would be reliable enough to lead the Clan. We see him as someone who abuses his underlings (including Kiryu, it's literally their first scene together), kidnapped Haruka and has an obsession with violence and chaos. The fact that this is a mask does not change it, because Kiryu has no reason to assume it is and even if he can't expect Majima to not use the mask as chairman. And he has no reason to trust Majima at this point. As far as Kiryu knows Majima’s loyalties lie with Shimano and/or himself. The other option could be Kashiwagi, but it's pretty safe to assume he wasn't interested. And to a degree Kiryu has some reasons to distance himself from Kashiwagi at this point considering he was just as involved with failing Nishiki and probably knew that Kazama killed their parents. It's nothing Kiryu would say out loud I think but subconsciously it's there. (And no, I don't think he magically owed it to Daigo to stay, but I already made a thread about Daigo's and Kiryu's relationship). And there’s also the very simple reason that Kiryu has no leadership experience, has been out of the Clan for 10 years and has to deal with a ton of survivor’s guilt, while he just learned that his father figure killed his parents. So that’s honestly not running at all. 

Yakuza (Kiwami) 2

Heads up again, I only played Kiwami 2 and not the original.

The only thing I can personally think of and I’ve seen brought up, is Kiryu being willing to die on the roof. And wonky writing aside, I think him being willing to die up there is a culmination of his survivor’s guilt mixed with the guilt he feels towards Kaoru, feeling responsible for her family’s death (even though he was a child himself) and also blaming himself for leaving the clan to Terada. It’s his first big “atonement by complete self sacrifice”. He’s not running, he thinks he’s solving the problem by taking himself out of the equation.

(Side note: it’s one of my least favorite scenes of the series because it feels extremely OOC. I think the writers/devs were going for some Hollywood action movie ending with Kiryu and Kaoru making out on the roof, etc, but do you really want me to believe he wouldn’t try to make Kaoru leave and get to safety and be totally fine with Haruka watching him die? Like, for real. It’s ridiculous).

If you squint, you could possibly count him not becoming chairman again, but my point from above still stands. That’s not running. It’s emancipation.

Yakuza 3

I think Kiryu leaving for Okinawa is one of the three times I see brought up the most as examples (the first being him running away from being chairman). And just like the first time I think it can count as running away, BUT just like the first time he actually does it for his own happiness and wellbeing and Haruka. It's him taking responsibility for his family. He's “running” from the Tojo and Kamurocho, but again: he doesn't owe it to anyone to lead a life of crime being unhappy, when he can have a happy life while his daughter has an actual happy life and childhood. Furthermore he assures that Daigo has people around him who have actual leadership experience (Majima, Kashiwagi, Yayoi), he has no reason to stay and sacrifice his and Haruka's happiness, especially considering Kiryu has no leadership experience and staying could also be seen as him challenging Daigo's power. So it’s not running, it’s once again emancipation.

Yakuza 5

The third big example I keep seeing brought up is Kiryu leaving the orphanage and start a new depressed life in Nagasugai. This, in my opinion, is another great example of him leaving = thinking he's taking responsibility and doing what's best for the people he loves, in this case Haruka and the other Morning Glory kids. And it's not that he's doing it because he wants to, but because Mirei Park successfully made him believe that the kids are better off without him, playing into a fear he very clearly already had before and that sticks with him for the rest of the games. I'm not saying Kiryu is doing the right thing here. In my opinion what he should have done was telling Park to fuck off and stay away from Haruka, but it is very Kiryu. Right until IW he feels like he has to repent for all the Tojo Clan ever did even though he hasn't been a part of it for a long time and they fucked up his life and keep dragging him back in. I think it's very smart of Park to get him out of the picture and completely isolating Haruka, so she can swoop in and manipulate her in this very fucked up Idol industry, making her think this was Haruka's dream. (Do you ever realize that if Kiryu told Park to fuck off a lot of sad stuff wouldn't have happened? Well). (Side note: I don't hate Park, she's a great and compelling character. But she's just like Arakawa: an abusive, manipulative parent grooming a kid for their own selfish reasons).

So: Kiryu's not running away. He's thinking he's doing the right thing by once again taking responsibility, taking all the blame and being self sacrificial. It's the wrong choice. But it doesn't mean he's running away.

Yakuza 6

Kiryu leaving for prison

in my opinion, another great case of him making a decision to take responsibility and atone for his Yakuza life, born basically out of what Park told him in Y5, that his past will ruin the kids’ future. I think none of the kids would agree, especially not Haruka and I'm not thinking it's the right decision, but it's very easy to see where he's coming from. And when Haruka leaves for Hiroshima (and then leaves Hiroshima when she learns she's pregnant) she's doing something very similar. I often saw “she's running away like she learned to run away from Kiryu”. No. She takes responsibility for others and her kid's safety the way she learned from Kiryu. Was it the right decision? Maybe not, but she is still very young and I will honestly fight for her right to make decisions that aren't perfect. And you can see where she's coming from, when she leaves Morning Glory. It's so much like Kiryu leaving in Y5 because he was convinced his past will ruin the kids' lives. It’s once again the opposite of running.

Kiryu faking his death

The top example of him taking responsibility and trying to repent for his life by condemning himself to loneliness, giving up everything he loves because he's convinced that's the only way to keep the kids safe, because they will never be safe as long as he's around. Mixed with his tendency to be self sacrificial and thinking he doesn't deserve to have happiness because of the people who died while he stayed alive, while he keeps endangering his loved ones. (I'm not touching the weird letter to Daigo here, because I already did that in a different thread).

Gaiden

I saw him not staying with the Jimas near the end brought up as an example of him running away, which in my opinion is just not working. He was basically forced out of hiding to help with the dissolution. That was a deal with the Daidoji. Why would he stay and endanger the orphanage when he just earlier saw that acting up could endanger the kids? I do think he cares about Majima and Daigo (and has respect for Saejima), but their feelings aren't worth risking the kids' lives for.

Infinite Wealth 

Kiryu not staying in the Jima-self-pity-shack

To say it bluntly: why would he? Coming there was already a huge risk. He's currently working on solving the mess the Jimas left behind, even though it should be none of his business. I see a lot of Kiryu hate for this scene, while I mostly was angry at Daigo, Majima and Saejima. Because time and time again Kiryu is dragged away from his civilian life to solve the mess of the Tojo Clan, that usually has nothing to do with him. At all. It's often started by Daigo being a weak chairman. (And no, I don't think Daigo is Kiryu's responsibility. Daigo at the point of becoming chairman has Yayoi, Majima and Kashiwagi with him. Why did Kiryu apparently fail Daigo, but they didn't?) But back to IW’s infamous 3Jima confrontation. Kiryu has every reason to be as pissed as he is. He had to help the dissolution during Gaiden, being basically sold by the Daidoji to the Yakuza cause. All of it wasn't his idea. Then the heads of the dissolution didn't see it through, flee into a fisher hut and it's once again Kiryu who suddenly has to solve the mess they left behind while being terminally ill. And then they have the audacity to ask him to abandon the cause and stay with them. Kiryu leaving with the Ichigang isn't only taking responsibility, it's also the right thing to do. And it's definitely not running away. 

Running from treatment instead of fighting 

Kiryu's lack of will to fight against the cancer is the culmination of his self sacrificial nature. It's on point. Because in the end he thinks that's what he deserves for his life and being alone with so many loved ones dead and people being added to the pile (like Rikiya, to his knowledge Kashiwagi, etc). He's just going full circle. He's alone and at this point he sees dying as being able to repent, join his loved ones and to a degree freedom from loneliness and the Daidoji leash. And in his mind the people who are still alive are better off without him, because as long as he's alive, he's a risk to their safety. With him gone, the Daidoji have no reason to threaten the kids anymore. It's very Kiryu. It's him on the roof in YK2 all over again. Finding his will to live again and fight is basically like him refusing to be chairman and leaving for Okinawa: because he's finally doing this for himself and his own happiness and not for the Tojo. And it makes so much sense that it happens through people who aren't Yakuza, but Date fighting for him, showing him all the people who love him and Ichigang as well, not the Tojo people.

But why the misconception?

Well, I feel like it's something that manifested as a belief in the fandom that a lot of people just stick to without actually questioning it. And a lot of times, it seems to be to make Kiryu responsible while taking responsibility from other characters (especially Daigo, Majima and Kashiwagi). In solidarity with one character another character gets the blame and that's - funny enough - usually Kiryu. He's magically ruined Daigo's life (I made another thread about why I think Kiryu's not as responsible for Daigo as some make it out to be) and responsible for basically every death in the series. If you read some takes, you could believe Kiryu's the true villain of the story. This is especially interesting because all those characters do similar things, but somehow that’s fine. Kashiwagi fakes his death and starts a new life. Majima drops Tojo responsibilities in Y2 to have a construction company (it’s not a civilian life though), he runs away from his (extremely young) wife, he leaves Kamorucho behind during the 3K-plan, he leaves the Yakuza grunts to hide in a fishing hut and he fakes his death in Y5. Daigo leaves the Tojo to drink his brains away with his nepo baby money, he basically vanishes in Y5 leaving the clan in disarray, he leaves during the 3K-plan and leaves with Majima once again when the dissolution isn’t easy. All of those characters have reasons for their behavior, Kiryu’s not more or less of an asshole for doing similar things. 

That’s my essay. It got far too long. Thank you, if you read all of this. 

I’m open to discussing my points. I’m not open to Kiryu being called an asshole just because a popular account says he is. 

[bababonzer]

OK I’ve got to obfuscate some highly contested things about SOTE, specifically involving Miquella’s seemingly bizarre choice of partnership:

Spoilers ahead

So, a lot of people are upset that Miquella chose to revive the soul of Radahn instead of Godwyn. Seems like the obvious choice. Godwyn was the person in the statues in the Haligtree, Miquella sort of ran the Castle Sol thing, even the existence of the golden epitaph sword calls into mind the strength of Miquella’s feelings.

So why Radhan? Let me flip it, why NOT Godwyn?

We know that Godwyn was the victim of the night of black knives. They carved a half of the curse mark of death into his back. At the same time they engraved the other half on Ranni. This leads to Ranni’s body dying but her soul remaining, and Godwyn’s body remaining but his soul dying. Keep this in mind for later.

The attempt of revivification at Castle Sol failed. The spirit at Castle Sol recants, “…The sun has not been swallowed. Our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…”

They tried to usher in the eclipse, but for whatever reason, it did not work.

In SOTE, Miquella absconded with Mogh’s remains so that he could call down Radahns soul.

I believe that Miquella DID choose Godwyn first. He tried at Castle Sol with a different ritual. The attempt at Castle Sol made clear to Miquella that Godwin’s soul was gone. Truly gone. It wasn’t that the ritual was done wrong, it’s that there was no soul left to call upon. Godwyn was the only character to fall to that specific half of the curse mark, in a land where death does not occur normally.

With this version of events posed, it makes sense that Miquella knew he needed to do something drastically different. Maybe it was after that realization that he made a pact with the next strongest demigod. It wasn’t because of a long standing underhanded relationship between the two, it was because his first choice got obliterated in soul and contorted in body.

It could also be, that because Godwin’s body remained, a surrogate could not be used. He had to choose another.

Now, why Radahn specifically? Well…

- His twin is afflicted with the scarlet rot - an affliction that even he in all his wisdom could not heal.

- Mogh and Margot were omen born and little known. Accursed blood ran through their veins. Perhaps they were just not strong enough? Revered enough? It could be that Miquella didn’t know of their godly lineage. There could be a lot of reasons.

- Rykard was a sadist blasphemer that turned into a giant serpent. Not a good companion for the kindly Miquella, who favors compassion and mercy.

- Ranni died lol

- Godwyn because of possibly the reason’s I stated above

Who does that leave if not Radahn?

But why not a mortal? Why not any of the Needle knight crew?

Against someone as powerful as Radahn, what mortal could possibly compare in raw power? None exist. Miquella’s lord had to be the strongest! He’s ushering in a new age after all.

Thank you for reading so far. If you have any thoughts to add, or if I got an aspect of the lore wrong - I’d love to hear from you.

[atalante241]

About Genshin Impact and the technology of Teyvat

We get a kamera at the start of the game from Xu for the “Snapshot” world quest. In it Xu remarks that the kamera is a new invention from Fontaine.

Xu shows surprise at the Traveler knowing what it is, this supports the idea of the kamera being a new invention meaning it’s pricey and rare to have at this point. Later on, on the Traveler’s journey, we get quests to take pictures of things. This could mean that the kamera is becoming more widespread a time goes on, or just the knowledge of it.

During the 4.3 Fontinalia Festival the focus was placed of films. This was an attempt by the Fontaine Film Association to introduce films to the populace, making the main point of the festival the films produced for it.

This would give idea to films still being a new invention, as they aren’t widespread, just like how the kamera was at the start of the game which was about 3 years ago. And based off of Furina’s Character Demo “Furina: All the World’s a Stage” we can assume that the films recorded were black and white in quality. Unless, we assume that the mini-games during the 4.3 “Roses and Muskets” event were canonical in the way they showed the film quality. No noise was shown in either, but one was in color the other not.

This gives us an estimate of where — technological advancement vice — Teyvat is compared to our world. Films started becoming a thing at the end of the 1800s and start of the 1900s. Colored film started showing up around the 1930s, but became more accessible and profitable later on. Films started getting sound added to them around the mid-to-late 1920s. This gives us an estimate of around the start of the 1900s placement vice.

Now I’d like to bring up Khaenri'ah. It was heralded as “the pride of humanity” as said by Dainslief. Khaenri'ah has more than one notable scientific aspect linked to it, one of these being the “Field Tillers” aka Ruin Machines. Ruin Machines vary from “simple” Ruin Guards to a Ruin Serpent(s).

Ruin Machines seem to have been around for a while, since the Archon War even given the Ruin Hunter stored by Guizhong in a domain. This means that the technology may have been around for 1000s of years, likely being used as a defense method during the war and preserved thereafter. The knowledge of this technology didn’t spread much beyond Khaenri'ah, this showing through how the people of Teyvat started calling the Ruin Machines “Ruin Machines” after they spread globally after the Cataclysm.

Around Sumeru there exist three giant Ruin Machines called “Ruin Golems”. These were giant mecha style machines were piloted by a crew of people, and — get this — include a colored screen. By screen I mean the type of screen you’re viewing this through, footage from outside the Ruin Golem being broadcasted to the screen to allow the people piloting to see where they’re going or what they’re doing.

During the “Vimana Agama” world quest that was apart of the Aranyaka quest line we can go into the Ruin Golem in Devantaka Mountain by Port Ormos. There we can use the actual screen and see through it. This being a machine that has sat unused for hundreds of years. And its screen is still in working condition.

So, simply put. Khaenri'ah was very mechanically advanced.

BUT!

I have yet to mention the Terminal Viewfinders in Fontaine. You know, those eye ball machines you use to transfer energy to terminals in puzzles in the Fontaine Research Institute area. You know, the machines with working colored screens. Mind you this isn’t technology you’re able to find all through out Fontaine, only in certain areas usually accompanied by a researcher from the Institute. So it would be more comparable to machines found in laboratories and not accessible to common people.

But still. At the very least Fontaine is near the mechanical advancements of Khaenri'ah either a few hundred to thousands of years ago.

And I have yet to mention everything going on in King Deshret’s places in the Sumeru desert. And I’m not going to go into more than this mention because that is a headache I have yet to even get around to in game.

TL;DR Khaenri'ah was very technologically advanced to the point of hundreds of years later working colored screen technology. Fontaine is around that point with the Research Institute while normal day to day people are around silent movies in advancement, while I have no idea what’s going on with the Sumeru Desert.

[morn-yvri-winters]

Fun CogDis Fact [+ Some Theory Crafting & Regards to Lore itself] (STORY SPOILERS... for a 15 year old fan-game)

So i was doing some data mining (as in looking inside of the game files for fun to see how the game ticks and works, and boy howdy let me tell you, RPG Maker 2003's UI scares me, props to Otherhand for navigating through these... many variables, numbers, & symbols going on, because it honestly overwhelms me) I had learned that:

Cerue appears in the Maria & George Magicant Flashback as one of the background Gieegs behind the windows. While this most likely is just a matter of reusing sprites, it should also be noted that not all Gieegs in the "allthegoogs" sprite sheet actually get used. Like, i want to say around 3/4ths of them actually ever get used (there are a total of 4 Gieegs in "allthegoogs".

(UPDATE 1: She's actually present for one more scene, i think? For whatever reason, her event handler has two pages but she appears for both pages, from what i can guess, she is meant to be the Gieeg that appears during the sequence where Maria & George are walking down the hallway [i think i want to say when George wants to show off the mental amps to Maria, since they share similar variables "0049: maction", which is meant to be the activation of an event via some number inputted by some handler)

(UPDATE 2: Yep, she is present for the scene when George & Maria head to the giant vault door to then breach using the Mental Amplifier Device, yet she doesnt seem to look, which could mean Otherhand forgor to make her turn or she wasnt meant to be there)

Another fun fact, the two Gieegs (referred to as goog 1 & goog 2 internally) that appear when Giegue has his overstimulation moment by Maria's Melody are actually using Giegue's Sprite Sheet (referred to as "Newgiegue")

(a part of me wanted to say its probably due to Giegue being the only "stock-standard" looking gieeg to have a moving sprite, but that isnt even remotely true since the gieegs from "allthegoogs" ALSO have walk sprites as well)

...the fact that the misc googs dont get used here either really feels like there was some manner of implication there by the dev. Personally i feel like its meant to imply that this is Giegue's actual parents but that would be a MONSTROUS conclusion to jump to, especially when there is ZERO mention about the BG Gieegs other than them appearing in scenes and the "(They're watching)" interaction.

Actually, the only real plausible theory to make here would be that Cerue was around for the Human Caretaker Experiment/Goog's Arrival to the Solar System. I mean, the fact that she knows about Giegue and refers to him as an anomaly, seems to imply she knows a LOT more about Giegue (as in a majority of his history/biography) than what the player already knows (who he is, what he is, what he becomes, etc.), in addition, she has a Starman in a chamber and seems to know about their origin/capabilities, even calling their transformation into Starmen a mistake yet compliments the design itself.

Which reminds me of something else, the timeline of events in CogDis which are awfully questionable in terms of order (at least for 1 to 4):

"QUESTIONABLE" TIME OF EVENTS

(190X) - The Gieegs arrive to the Solar System and successfully neutralize the Martian's Space Station's Inhabitants to ensure they have the element of Surprise on their hand.

(190X) - The Gieegs arrive to Mars and engage in war against the Martians. They are successful in doing so and assimilate the Martians into their Army/Empire as the "Starmen" (?).

(190X) - Maria & George find Giegue out in the wild, they are then kidnapped and Maria is supposedly in a mini coma for over a week??? Regardless, George & Maria take care of Googie (also George works out some arrangements with the Gieegs to make sure that everything is comfortable to their liking).

(190X) - 2 or so years later, the event occurs, Maria gets Magicant'd and George runs away with the Mental Amplifiers.

(190X -> 198X) - Mother 1's Back Story involving George's Return to Earth occurs and eventually leads to the events of Mother 1 itself (also apparently PSI spreads out across Earth itself?).

I refer to this as being "questionable" as I am highly unsure as to whether or not the Gieegs were the only ones present on the Mothership OR if the Gieegs had done Mars dirty, assimilated the Martians into their Army as the Starmen and then went to Earth.

Personally a part of me wants to believe its potentially the former, as them getting pissed off at Humanity and taking it out on the Martians seems fitting in terms of MOTHER/Earthbound Logic (problem is that this wouldnt really align too well with the Mars' Data Log).

However it might actually be the latter considering that the Gieegs come from outside the Solar System, and by this time the Martians are the only one with a Space Station/Satellite, them getting neutralized by the Gieegs feels fitting, as the Gieegs themselves REALLY dont like it when another race has PSI (or at least, if they do, they dont like them being a potential threat to their goals, whatever THAT may be).

[tl;dr version of this paragraph, either they got super pissy and took out their hate on Mars or they are the equivalent to the Viltrumite Empire from INVINCIBLE and neutralized Mars so nobody would know and potentially warn others who about their arrival]

(now im thinking of the "THINK MARK! THINK!" meme in my head but with Giegue & [insert fitting character role here])

(Also if you're wondering why i've come to such a strong assumption about the Gieegs, it mainly has to do with a friend of mine bringing up a really good point when i was discussing lore stuff about my sona's world (aka the one in my pfp and which i have a ref sheet to), that being "Why would a race that seems peaceful, need weapons of mass destruction to defend themselves? That would imply that they aren't peaceful in the slightest or have blood on their hands." and it sorta stuck with me. Like, the best example I can currently think of is: An alien race comes down to Earth and says "we come in peace" and then pulled out a nuke and vaporized an entire forest after one deer spooked them; thats sorta what the Gieegs feel like to me whenever i think about them now, CogDis obviously doesnt make them peaceful and afr kind of 'shifty' but Official Mother (Game) Lore never actually quite describes what their intentions even were in the first place, only that they were afraid of Humanity having access to PSI and that Giegue needed to stop them)

Actually, i find it even more weird as to what could have possibly had occurred to the other Gieegs. So if we were to go by the theory of "Cerue being around", then there was probably at least... Three to Four unique Gieegs total?

(Hell, maybe there could of been even more aboard the Mothership for all we know, considering that when Maria is running through the halls, she mentions that the aliens on board all sorta just looked at them without stopping them, never brings up if they were just other Gieegs or what, just that they were being observed)

We know Cerue could have potentially disembarked at some random point (maybe potentially after the Human Caretaker Experiment OR after the Mars Invasion, depending upon which happens first) and goes into hiding on Mercury, basically collecting various creatures from around the Solar System (some either being alive or dead).

We do not know what happens to the other 2 to 3 Gieegs except that they were present for the Human Caretaker Experiment & The Invasion of Mars, as they were most likely responsible for the majority of opposition & were described as being all-powerful by the Mars Super Computer's City Records, so I imagine only a few were needed to take over.

Giegue is the only one around on the Mothership (excluding Niiue) but doesn't know where Cerue went.

(...potentially, Niiue's dialogue about him knowing that she doesn't want to meet him could imply that he's referring to his true identity as Giegue & knows that Cerue possibly sensed him but as Giegue and not his own unique being, which is why she said she only trusted the Applechasers [the main 4] and doesnt try to erase their memory).

(WARNING LINKS LEAD TO FANDOM WIKI, CARRY A BLOCKER) Oddly enough, the fandom wiki for Earthbound has a really interesting tidbit of a theory regarding as to what Giegue's Race even was or what may have happened to them (since after Mother 1, Giegue's People gets ZERO mention), mentioning that after he returned to the ship, he may have ended up killing his people in a fit of distress & deterioration before eventually transforming into Giygas, but its fandom wiki so take it with a tablespoon of salt.

(if youre wondering "why not use WikiBound?", it mainly tends to be game information rather than like, external media information..? Idk, i personally feel like i found more substance to Giegue's Fandom Page than compared to his WikiBound Page)

something i will mention however, is that the fandom wiki uses a lot of information from the novel for Mother 1 (apparently?) as a means to sorta fill in information regarding events that occur between the games. Also its the only wiki with a page regarding Giegue's Race, also this really cool illustration of the Mothership:

Anyhoot, I'm done rambling now, i just sorta wanted to share this because it was on my mind. Gonna stop now before my brain overheats and combusts from thinking too much, also i am hungry, its lunch.

(UPDATE, 12/23/202X, I've realized Cerue's Sprite has different opacities, which might mean that she's been sticking around quite a bit when George makes his discoveries & when the two escape)

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Marinette asked Tikki and Plagg what was Gabriel's exact Wish in the London special and they said he gave up his life for Nathalie's and that was it, nothing more to it. So the equivalent of the Wish was acquired, a life for a life, and nothing else negative nedeed to happen in order to balance out the universe after Gabriel's Wish according to the established lore. In Origins Gabriel wouldn't have been willing to give up his own life, which means he would've sacrificed an innocent person's life to revive Emilie. I guess the S5 finale is considered a win for the heroes according to the writers' own words cause they prevented Gabriel from sacrificing an innocent person for his Wish (as Gabriel can't be considered as such) even they couldn't prevent his Wish.

I guess that's why they walked back on reviving Emilie cause 1 life for 2 wouldn't fly (as this one's already stretching it considering that Gabriel was mortally wounded by the Cataclysm when he used his life up as an offering for the Wish) and I think the writers didn't want to bother with more consequences for the Wish.

(Post that spawned this ask)

I have yet to see the London special, but I took a look at the transcript and you're right. That does seem to be the official word:

Marinette: What did Gabriel Agreste wish for? Plagg: (sadly) He... gave up his life. Tikki:(sadly) In return for Nathalie's, knowing she was gravely ill. Nathalie:(shocked) He... did that?

*clears throat*

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? That's it??? That's the wish??? The entire universe was rewritten so that a domestic terrorists didn't need to suffer the consequences of her own fully informed choice?

Gabriel: I told you never to use the Peacock Miraculous! Nathalie: I had no choice, sir. I had to save you! (coughs) Gabriel: It's damaged. It's way too dangerous. Nathalie: I want to help you all the way to the end. (smiles) Gabriel: (glares at her but then smiles) Thank you, Nathalie. (puts his hand on top of hers) For everything.

Don't get me wrong, Nathalie living was obviously part of the wish, I just expected more. If you're going to have the villain win, then go big! (I will die on the hill that, if they wanted to "redeem" Gabriel via a wish, then the wish should have been to make the sentikids real humans.) Then again, this does fall perfectly in line with things like the season three and four finals. Something major that should have changed everything, but that ends up having almost no meaningful impact on the story.

Having an official word on this doesn't actually change my stance on the wish, though. If Gabriel making a wish is not a massive no, then everything about the story was pointless in my eyes. If Gabriel was willing to change his mind in his moment of triumph after a season where he was at his absolute worst, then I do not believe that he would have been unwilling to change back in Origins. That's simply not the story that the writers told.

Based on what canon actually gave us, Gabriel would have been willing to change his mind at any time so long as he saw that video of Emilie saying "don't revive me." That video wasn't even directed at him personally! It was an incredibly tepid plea for Nathalie to not mourn her:

Emilie: (from the video recording) Don't be sad, Nathalie. You know that I had agreed to it, that Gabriel never forced me to do anything. But he should never try to bring me back. No one should have their life stolen from them because of the mistake that we made. You must continue to be happy, even though I'm no longer here. As long as there's love, it is possible. Adrien will be well-surrounded. He'll have you, Nathalie, and he'll have his father if Gabriel agrees to give up on his madness... and on me. (Gabriel breaks down.) Adrien... will have all the love he needs to be happy. Bug Noire: And that's what happened. Adrien has learned to live, and built his own happiness while cherishing the memory of his mother. She would be proud of him. Gabriel: (whilst his shaky hands reach for the paused image of Emilie on the phone) I... just can't live without her. (sobs) I loved her so much. When she left me, the world shut down around me. I still remember her smile the day Adrien was born. When I placed him in her arms, for so long, we've been thinking that we would never be able to have a child. Adrien was our little miracle. (voice breaks) Everything was so... perfect, until Emilie became ill. She is— She was right: Adrien was not alone. He had Nathalie and me. I've ruined everything. Nathalie's about to disappear, (the tip of his index finger shatters) and so am I. Adrien will have no one left.

If this lackluster moment could change his mind, then lots of things would have because there's no way in hell that the video was new information. It's even arguable the video didn't change his mind. At least, not the way I'd expect if we're going for a positive, meaningful message. Gabriel still doesn't want to live without Emilie. What we see in this scene and the official word of god is that Gabriel picked death over a life without Emilie:

Émilie will not be brought back to life as Gabriel has finally mourned her death, which Adrien has already done for a long time. But Gabriel cannot live without her and decides to die with her.

I would not call this good, meaningful growth for Gabriel. Nor would I call it a positive, uplifting message for children. I'd call it a horrifying and disgusting message for anyone who has ever suffered intense grief from the loss of a loved one, but let's not dwell on that too much. Instead, let's keep our focus on what Gabriel's choice means for the overall story.

The word of god and the implications of this scene are also that talking it out was all anyone ever needed to do:

In the end, it is not violence or strength that wins, but people talking to each other and opening up about their feelings. It is when people are not subject to their emotions, but instead try to understand them to think better and take the right decisions.

If this is true and it's okay for Gabriel to pick suicide over a life without Emilie, then all of Paris pointlessly suffered because of a simple communication issue. Ladybug and Chat Noir should have just asked Gabriel what his wish was, told him that he'd have to sacrifice himself or a willing third party to make that work, and then let him decide if he wanted to switch places with Emilie. Alternatively, he could have sacrificed himself for some innocent like a cancer patient and gone to be with his wife in death in that person's place. Same ending, just with the bonus of saving someone from cancer! You cannot convince me that he wouldn't go for it based on what we see in canon.

As a quick final note, letting Gabriel make the wish not only ruins the story, it also ruins the lore because we have to actually consider what the wish does now. As you said in the ask, it doesn't make any sense. If Gabriel is literally moments away from dying, then how can he give up his life for Nathalie's? And why do you need to rewrite the universe when the wish is something so minor? How does rewriting the universe make the wish come true? What actually changed? Did Nathalie now never use the peacock? Did her illness just switch to Gabriel? If so, how? I have so many questions that I know will never be answered because they don't exist. The lore is simply not strong enough to hold up to up any level of scrutiny.

[house-of-mirrors]

Hmm. Comparisons between Classical Mythology and Judgements. Keep in mind not everything is a direct parallel/not every detail matches, but: my thoughts.

The King Who Wars and the King Who Speaks: Ares and Athena. Different aspects of war with battle, strategy, and parley.

The King of Hours: Kronos. Associated with time, and he consumed his child's life to survive.

The Sapphir'd King: Hades. Domain of the dead, riches, and jewels. There are different regions of the Blue Kingdom/Underworld including The White Well/Tartarus.

The Merchant King: Dionysus, of course. From Skies we know the High Wilderness has dolphins... that would be a fun connection to make a headcanon with.

The Black: Janus. There are straightforward parallels in the text with two faces and doorways.

The White: A character symbolizing Old Europe deserves a parallel to a Germanic deity, I think. So, maybe Woden? Associated with wisdom, foretelling the future, wolves, appearing amongst mortals in disguise, and a winter holiday.

The Garden King: Demeter fits well enough, I suppose. However, I'm also thinking on vibes alone about the death of Baldur in a treachery which was a harbinger to Ragnarok (the Liberation of Night).

[cloudberriess]

Lyney & Lynette Lore Dive

(Idk if anyone has ever thought of this, probably, but I just did too-)

I was recently watching a streamer play Act 1 of Fontaine, and the more I thought about the part where Lyney reveals his past I couldn't help but theorize it.

When Lyney was younger, he and Lynette got taken in by that one noble yes? The one that gave her to another creepy dude as a 'gift'. When talking about it, Lyney recalls what the noble had said to him when he asked about Lynette's whereabouts, 'She caught the eye of the most eminent person at the banquet, so I sent her over as a gift. I mean you'll be able to perform your magic regardless of who your assistant is, yes?'

Really focus in on the second sentence of that.

'I mean you'll be able to perform your magic regardless of who your assistant is, yes?'

Now taking that, if you go back a little ways into the quest when Lyney was revealing his trick to the Traveler for the trial, he specifically said that he personally loves that trick due to the fact that him and Lynette are the only ones who can perform it.

You see where I'm going with this?

That part in the trick where Lynette pops out of the box dressed up as Lyney certainly did not have to be added in to make it a great trick. Sure it adds more to the shock factor when Lyney appears in the other box only seconds later, but it also isn't entirely needed. He added that part so only Lynette and him could pull off that trick. Only him and Lynette. No other assistant would work for that.

I see it as his retaliation and almost fear to the fact that he wants to make it where he can't have another assistant. He wants to make it where only Lynette can be the one to be on stage with him.