#meta: sara

[addictedtostorytelling]

→ this whole conversation is so loaded because what sara wants to tell grissom but won’t—but can’t—is there is a hole in her life in the shape of him, and she doesn’t know how to fill it. as she will later reveal in episode 05x12 “snakes,” she moves to vegas for him more than she ever does the job, believing (not without reason) he has asked her to join his team because he wants to up the ante on whatever dizzying, undefined, long-distance thing they’ve been doing for the last two and a half years and try having a romantic relationship in earnest. she imagines when she does so he will become the cure for her lifelong loneliness: the measure of her time when she is away from the lab, her confidante, her partner in adventures, the sharer of her bed, the person she someday comes home to, leading the kind of love-filled existence which before now had always seemed out of her reach. but somehow what she hopes for never transpires. she answers his call, and at first when she arrives in his city, everything seems to be happening as envisioned: he is warm and welcoming, as glad to have her with him as she is to be by his side. only gradually do things shift—does he start by increments pulling away from her, his warmth fading, her welcome wearing out, until by the events of episode 01x16 “too tough to die,” nearly five months have passed since she left san francisco, and not only are she and grissom not a couple but their relationship is actually more distant now than when they lived 400+ miles away from each other. she isn’t sure what she did wrong—what she did to drive him off. all she knows is sitting with him in this dark room, having him preach to her how she needs more in her life than just the job he gave her, has to be some kind of special torture the universe invented to punish her for some grave, unspecified sin. he says she needs diversions, and she wants to shoot back, that’s what you were supposed to be! he asks her what she does for fun, and she only barely holds off from saying he would already know if he had stuck to the original plan; if they were, as intended, having fun together. he advises her she needs something outside of law enforcement, and it’s all she can do not to remind him he was supposed to be her something. he asks her what she likes and the only way she can keep from sobbing, you! i like you! and i thought you liked me back! is to lash out, belligerent, childish, and aching, with a lie, pretending she prefers having nothing in her life but the work which is now the only thing they two share at all. the worst part is, when he reveals to her his “something outside of law enforcement” is nothing more involving or connective than to ride roller coasters, she has some sense he is as lonely as she; his life as empty beyond the lab. she wishes she could ask him then what they’re doing. why they’re both carrying on this way, needlessly alone, when the solution seems so obvious.

[maespri]

so was anyone going to inform me that if you lose in the quick draw game in chapter 2 with shin as a partner that sara will literally tackle him in a last-ditch effort to protect him. or was i just supposed to figure that information out on a whim and have it ruin my day

like sure i know she also does this for her other two potential partners in this minigame (reko and nao) which, don't get me wrong, is just as heart-wrenching. but there's just something about this that strikes a chord in me because- she hates his ass! she's sick of this guy, he sucks to her, boo! mentally she is always throwing tomatoes at him!

and yet she still did for him what she would've done for any other person in his position. reko and nao are people she considers friends, and she says so multiple times. but shin? she hates this guy. she also doesn't hesitate to risk her life in an on-the-spot effort to save him.

it kind of reminds me of how shin spends his final moments of his life also giving back to sara (the joe AI). idk... something something humans are inherently good, something something deep down we only want to help others... something something psychology and adrenaline... yeah...

anyway this made me put my thinking cap on that is all

[kataraavatara]

use this post as a “i think the only reason they have daemon be physically violent towards rhaenyra is to make daemon look bad and not to explore rhaenyra herself or domestic violence in any meaningful way” button

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Never thought it necessary, but it has come to this.

Time to add a tag on Ao3 mentioning the non-association of my story to the piece of trash on screen.

Those of you who are true Asoiaf fans, should do the same to yours.

Because let’s make something clear. GRRM is no longer involved with that shit show. He hates it, and has clearly stated that we should separate his work from it. And he won’t be part of season 3. Therefore, if the trash “flourishes” have not been confirmed by GRRM, they are not canon (including Rhaenyra’s sexuality).

[mswyrr]

Since I keep seeing the same talking point, I wanted to address it:

Yes, even things like ages can be unknown about famous historical figures! You can get can overview of reasons why at this r/askhistorians thread

Hotd fandom is full of people who don't know about historiography in general, but specifically for the kind of medieval text the book is meant to imitate, holding forth on how obvious historical fact is when that's simply not so.

And as I've said in a prior meta - yes, people in queerphobic societies have actively and consistently erased evidence of queer people and their love.

Now, it would be artistically valid to make changes in an adaptation even if none of this were the case. But it is. It's entirely possible that records were unclear due to time and the chaos of war or other factors. And that it just seemed obvious to people, as the story was handed down, that the dowager queen, Rhaenyra's stepmother, *must* have been older than her, even though she wasn't.

What we know of the past is often very sketchy. It's a careful process of putting clues together to make best guesses in many particulars. No trained historian would look at a medieval account like the kind the book imitates and simply believe it as fact.

Each subfield of history has specific tools and practices for analyzing materials to come up with the best understanding - and then historians challenge and rework those understandings over time as they reevaluate evidence and find new materials!

[thevelaryons]

I’ve always found it interesting that of the lowborn/bastard women in the DotD, Marilda is the only one who doesn’t get slandered and insulted in the Westerosi history books.

Speaking specifically about the women who were rumored to have had affairs with noblemen, the women (Sara Snow/Alys Rivers/Nettles) in particular get derogatory descriptions for various reasons. The men they are linked to all either die or are unable to do anything about the rumors (Sara: her rumored lover Jace dies and her brother Cregan is far away in the North when those rumors become a thing in the South years later/Alys: her rumored lover Aemond dies and her son is obviously too young to do anything about the insults people are saying about his mother/Nettles: her rumored lover Daemon dies). Regardless of whether any of the rumors were true or not, it's still the women in the relationships who were described in a negative manner. Even men like Aemond or Daemon don't get as slandered, despite their more controversial actions.

Sara may or may not have existed (the fact that her existence alone is doubted speaks for itself) but in the history books she is described as an "unwashed" bastard. Even the fact she was a virgin at the time of her affair with Jace is called into question. Alys gets descriptors like "slattern" and "cow". She is reviled as a seductress and witch who would sacrifice her own children. Nettles gets insulted as well, both by characters around her and the maesters/septons recording the histories. Beyond the classism, there is also a racial angle to the insults with her skin colour always being at the forefront when she gets called "dirty" and "creature". It’s unfortunate but Westerosi society is unfair to women, especially those of a lower social class, and so they do often have to rely on the men in their lives, whether that’s a male lover/husband, their father, brother(s) or son(s) as a source of protection. Characters like Sara/Alys/Nettles don't get that protection.

Then you get to Marilda's descriptions in the book, and it's completely clean. Not a single insult is uttered against her despite her supposed involvement with two different Velaryon men. Whether her affair was with Corlys or Laenor, it occurred at the time when they were married men. Laenor is dead by the time when he's claimed to be the father of Marilda's sons. But Corlys is alive and well. Not to mention, he's a very well respected figure in Westerosi society. That being said, I can’t see Corlys doing any major PR control here since he does not have the means to do so.

Alyn, however, could ensure his mother did not get negative remarks. He's the one said to have fostered close ties to the Citadel and a positive relationship with the Faith. On more than one occasion, he was anointed by the High Septon himself, which is something that's typically reserved for the King or his Kingsguard. So I think Alyn might’ve used that influence to his favor.

While Alyn does seem like the type who doesn’t care much about what others think of him, he clearly respects his mother so I doubt he would want her to have a bad reputation. Even concerning the rumors of Alyn's potential affairs, the maesters are somewhat dismissive about them and call the rumors "unreliable". They don't give much credence to what third parties are saying on such matters. As for Alyn's mother, she is spoken of with nothing but respect and even flattery at times.

History is truly written by the victors.

[dusty-daydreams]

I can’t help but wonder if what happened at the end of episode 5 triggered Simon’s trauma with his dad.

It seemed like they were trying to tone down Micke this season - make him a disappointing alcoholic rather than the abusive drug addict they implied he was in season 1 - but the fact of the matter was Micke didn’t blink an eye at slamming his son against walls and grabbing his face violently. Suggesting that Micke had been violent with Simon before.

Then we have Wille who bottles everything up until he bursts into a violent rage. He bottles up his pain at his parents until he is yelling at them and smashing presents in front of his shell shocked boyfriend. He escalated to the point he threatened someone with a gun. Frankly it makes me wonder if the nightclub fight that started everything was the result of Wille bottling his stress until someone harassing him at a club made him explode.

In some ways both Simon and Sara have partnered up with people like their father.

Sara has found herself with an addict.

Simon has found himself with someone who explodes violently.

I hope it gets resolved it just makes me sad

[heliza24]

Let’s talk about parallels between Wilhelm and Sara in Season 3 of Young Royals

Because there are so many! This is a continuation of sorts of this meta that I wrote about them being A and B plot protagonists in season 1 and 2. I don’t know that I would describe them exactly that way in season 3, but I do think their plots, character arcs, and themes are meant to mirror each other very closely this season.

One of my favorite things about the parallels between Wilhelm and Sara this season is that comparing them really makes you hold Sara’s friendship with Felice on the same level as Wilhelm’s romantic relationship with Simon (and Sara’s with August) which I think is so important. Both Wilhelm and Sara go through breakups over the course of the season (I think Felice’s reaction especially frames her friendship breakup with Sara similarly to a romantic breakup, which I love). And both of their arcs are about mending those relationships.

Sara and Wilhelm both need to experience the world outside of Hillerska before they can mend those relationships. Sara is able to glimpse some independence, even just through getting her license. The whole world is open to her now, as Felice says in ep 6. I don’t know that she would have been able to make her decision not to go back to August without experiencing that freedom. And Wilhelm also needs to experience the full force of what life in the monarchy would be like before he is able to decide to leave it. Because of this they also act as our window into the two different worlds outside of Hillerska, the palace and Bjarstad. They create the larger context in which we understand Hillerska this season.

I love that both of their journeys of personal growth are symbolized through cars. Wilhelm is always getting trapped with his mom or a member of the court in a fancy car; it’s where almost all of the monarchy’s most onerous instructions on how to live are delivered to him. So it’s huge when he leaves his parents in the chauffeured car at the end of episode 6 and goes to find Simon, Felice and Sara in Sara’s beat up used car. Meanwhile, Sara has traded in horses for the car. This is stated pretty explicitly when her dad asks her if she would like to work with horses and she declines, saying that she has come to realize that horses are simply traded by rich people as status symbols, and her dad suggests she get her drivers license since it will help with any job she wants. In seasons 1 and 2 Rousseau is pretty heavily associated with August, along with the pressures put on August and the other elite kids at Hillerska to conform to expectations (@bluedalahorse has written the Bible on that here), so the fact that Sara swaps out the horse for a car that can take her anywhere feels like a step away from both August and the prescriptive norms of Hillerska.

Sara and Wilhelm both reject what they saw as their destined future. This is obviously really clear for Wilhelm; he assumed he would be prince and then king after Erik died, and his greatest moment of character growth is when he decides he doesn’t have to fulfill that assigned role if it will keep him from being happy and living authentically. I love the scene where Sara talks with her dad about her fears that she will fail in the same ways that he did because she also has autism and adhd. This is a less clear-cut assigned destiny, but that fear of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy is equally overwhelming, especially because Sara has already let down someone she cares about in a way that’s not dissimilar to how her father breaks promises. The fact that she’s able to come to terms with her dad’s influence in her life, but realize she really is in charge of her own future, is really powerful. (I also think it’s such smart writing about the way disability and internalized ableism can really affect your self image).

In order to break free of those predetermined destinies, both Sara and Wilhelm need to see a father/mentor figure as more than black and white. Wilhelm needs to acknowledge that Erik wasn’t perfect, and did help contribute to some of the abusive traditions of Hillerska. Sara needs to recognize that even though her dad isn’t a perfect parent, she still loves him for the care he is able to show to her and wants to have him in her life. I love that both Wilhelm and Sara learn to hold multiple conflicting emotions about their loved ones. They can be disappointed by some of Micke and Erik’s actions, but they can still value their relationships with those family members and recognize them as complex, complete people.

They also both go on a similar journey with how they see August. Wilhelm comes to recognize that August is both a perpetrator and victim of the class system and Hillerska’s systemized abuse. Sara similarly realizes that August is an adult who needs to be responsible for his own emotions. She’s no longer interested in saving him from his complex feelings of guilt, and recognizes his potential to find self healing. Both of those new assessments of August grant him more maturity and complexity than earlier in the show. (They also reflect the way that August grows, in fits and starts, over the course of season 3. If there was a season 4 of the show, I think we would really see August respond to Sara and Wilhelm’s new attitudes towards him in a way that would fuel future character growth).

Viewing Erik, Micke, and August more complexly also allows Sara and Wilhelm to forgive themselves for the ways they are similar to those people. They are able to acknowledge the shame they feel around their actions, but also forgive themselves in the same way that they forgive others.

Both Sara and Wilhelm have specifically let down Simon in pretty big ways (Sara by secretly dating August, Wilhelm by perpetuating the royal family restrictions onto Simon). But they are able to recognize those mistakes and reconcile with Simon.

Wilhelm and Sara both leave the monarchy (Wilhelm literally, Sara by refusing a relationship with August), but they also leave a kind of prescriptive romance behind. Wilhelm says no to having to monitor Simon, to having to roll out his relationship in a certain way to please the court, and to having their future together mapped out and their decision around children made for them. Sara says no to a smaller set of requirements, but the traditional ways that August sees romance are so influenced by the monarchy (which is in turn so influenced patriarchy) that they are similar in some ways. Sara says no to having to do August’s emotional labor, to managing him so that he will fit the image of a good heir. She says no to waiting for him to visit on weekends while he does military service. She says no to this grand plan that he has. (This was @bluedalahorse’s point originally that she shared with me, and honestly I think it's so smart). Wilhelm chooses a romantic relationship that he and Simon are free to create together without rules; Sara chooses a friendship based on honesty and support. Both are valid options that give the characters a sense of peace and freedom. And they would not have been able to make those choices without all of the growth they went through over the course of the season.

I think Sara and Wilhelm's arcs compliment each other so well, and it was one of my favorite things about season 3. I loved watching both of them get to grow so much and end up in such a happy place.

[atopvisenyashill]

THE PACT OF ICE AND FIRE

so there's an aspect of this one i don't think has really been delved into that I think may be important when it comes to canon jonsa and I wanted to do my own lil analysis, along with maybe some tin hatting at the end here.

this is what the pact is (or what we know of it at any rate, Munkun is not exactly a good source of information):

Cregan Stark and Jacaerys Velaryon reached an accord, and signed and sealed the agreement that Grand Maester Munkun calls “the Pact of Ice and Fire” in his True Telling. Like many such pacts, it was to be sealed with a marriage. Lord Cregan’s son, Rickon, was a year old. Prince Jacaerys was as yet unmarried and childless, but it was assumed that he would sire children of his own once his mother sat the Iron Throne. Under the terms of the pact, the prince’s firstborn daughter would be sent north at the age of seven, to be fostered at Winterfell until such time as she was old enough to marry Lord Cregan’s heir.

There's two parts to this that I think are important here. Here is the first, which is the basics of the pact, and that most Jonsas are familiar with:

Jacaery's First Born Daughter Is Fostered At Winterfell -> She will marry Cregan's first born son and heir.

Obviously, this never happened for several reasons and the pact is forgotten but perhaps it will be fulfilled anyway by...

Jon, a secret Targaryen bastard, is "fostered" at Winterfell -> he will fulfill the pact by marrying a Stark Maiden aka Sansa.

Basically, it's a genderswapped version of what the pact entails. I think given George's fondness for how Tolkien was a hater of Macbeth because he thought the "no man of woman born" should have indicated a girl and not just a man born via c-section, I think the genderswap aspect fits George's style.

The second part however, has more to do with Jacaerys and Sara and I feel like it's glossed over a bit. See here:

They had spoken their vows in Winterfell’s own godswood before a heart tree, and only then had she given herself to him, wrapped in furs amidst the snows as the old gods looked on.

Jacaerys, a "secret" Targaryen bastard who gets his family name and allegiances through his mother, not his father -> Rumors of a secret marriage in front of a Weirwood with a Stark bastard, Sara

Listen. It doesn't matter whether Sara Snow is real, you believe whatever makes you happy! But what IS real and relevant is that this part was included in F&B for a reason, and is indicated to be the catalyst for the pact. Jace and Sara get secret married in front of a Weirwood, and this is what calms down Cregan so they can make their pact. And here is how (I believe) it applies to Jonsa:

Jon, a secret Targaryen bastard, but who gets his look and his allegiance not through his father but Lyanna's blood -> Jon, a Stark bastard, will marry an Heir in secret in front of a Weirwood tree.

THAT is, imo, the most important aspect of this scandalous story from Mushroom - that a secret bastard, a targaryen and a stark, secretly marry in front of a Weirwood tree just before a bloody war kicks off. People tend to make Sansa the Sara in this part, which is valid, but I think Sansa's role in this is not just to be the pretty Stark maiden, but to be the HEIR that is secretly marrying for love, like Jacaerys is, and that Jon's role will be about his status as a bastard, so that both parts kind of apply to both characters. And given that, if Jace and Sara had married, their daughter would have been a Starkgaryen with "secret" bastard heritage (from both her parents), marrying a Stark Heir, it does make sense (at least in my mind) that this may apply to Jon and Sansa's future plot. the That's something I touched on here in my "what will Jon's endgame" post.

Then there's the Vermax of it all...

Mushroom also claims that Vermax left a clutch of dragon’s eggs at Winterfell, which is equally absurd. Whilst it is true that determining the sex of a living dragon is a nigh on impossible task, no other source mentions Vermax producing so much as a single egg, so it must be assumed that he was male. Septon Barth’s speculation that the dragons change sex at need, being “as mutable as flame,” is too ludicrous to consider.)

This brought to mind the ole' Jonnel and Sansa (the first) thing - beyond the J&S similarities (Jacaerys & Sara, Jon & Sansa, Jonnel & Sansa), I think it's also important that Jonnel and Sansa never have any children, though they're married for several years. Jacaerys and Sara also never have children, yet there's the rumor Vermax laid eggs in the crypt, with some believing this may have meant Sara was pregnant (but perhaps miscarried) when Jacaerys left. I think however, the fact that both J&S couples kind of mysteriously do not have children of their own, and that their Houses descend from someone else to be important.

I've kind of briefly gone into the idea that Bran rules in a parliamentary style over (what's left of) Westeros, and while I'm not too committed one way or the other on whether he physically has children or whether they elect the ruler on the Iron Throne more often starting from Bran, the succession is significantly less of an issue because of the permanent Great Council/Parliament that will exist. Sansa (and Jon, for that matter), however, is the heiress to a long line of kings and lords and needs some sort of heir. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibililty that while in the Vale, she connects with some of Jocelyn Stark's descendants (the famous "Vale cousins" that Catelyn mentions as heirs for Robb) and makes one of them her heir, or even names the children of Arya her heir, and pulls a Queen Elizabeth, but then I thought of Vermax laying dragon eggs that are never found, and Jonnel and Sansa never having children, and George's love of threes and thought...perhaps Jon and Sansa will have an heir, but Sansa can't claim the child as hers.

In that same vein, it’s noteworthy to me as well that Serena and Edric (Sansa's younger sister and Jonnel's younger brother) have TWO sons but the line completely bypasses them. We have no idea how the Northerners felt about these marriages beyond the fact that they didn't like Lynara's sons because their rules were plagued by troubles. Is it possible that they chose to bypass Edric's sons because of the incest, and Sansa/Jon may be forced to reconcile with how the realm views him (as Ned's son) and what he actually is (Lyanna's son) when it comes to the line of succession? IE - Vermax is rumored to lay an egg in the crypts but no one ever finds out, Sansa is rumored to have have had a child with her “brother” but no one ever finds out the truth.

TO SUM UP: I think the Pact of Ice and Fire is a hint that Jon and Sansa will secretly marry in the godswood of Winterfell, and it's likely that when Sansa is named Queen in the North, her heir will be "fathered by a wolf" or a "wildling" and she and Jon won't be able to tell anyone that Jon is the father.

[ride-thedragon]

Something always grinds my gears about the narrative that hotd is a feminist telling from both the writers and the audience who use it as an insult because it chooses to neglect for the sake of naming the thing and relating to the culture the fact that feminism, especially in media can't be analysed by the definition alone.

Feminism occurs in both waves and theories. The writers and reviewers sight nothing but the name itself. Hotd isn't based in Marxist feminism or liberal feminism and I'm not entirely sure anyone who says it's feminist can tell me which wave it belongs to, what theory it is. This is a bigger issue with the trend of political critiques turning into buzz words and then depending on how the culture sees the word, into a marketing strategy to relate to the audience.

I know the hotd writers are guilty of this with the constant reference to American political figures and narratives when describing characters in such a concerning way.

I don't think that this is a problem with only this show but this show is falling short with audiences because what they deem as feminist rather than tying themselves to any definition outside of the cultural one and then applying their own perceptions of feminism into the narrative.

This leads to a lack of clear definition and a gross oversight, which in turn leads to a historically masculine space salivating over the failure of feminism and attempted intersectionalism as though it's the real thing.

House of the Dragon as it is written doesn't subscribe to feminism. What it does is have writers from the Imperialist West who are raised in an individualist society and the cultural influence of the waves of feminism recorded that they lived through and leaned towards based on personal experiences (sidenote I hate acting as though I know the writers personally, and can judge them as people, this is just a framework that can be applied to Americans.)

The writers have biases that influence what they write, which isn't inherently a bad thing, but because it's marketed as a feminist show, it's fundamentally failing its audience.

[addictedtostorytelling]

Ahhhh your metas on Sara's behaviour/past/how well the character was written (up to S9, of course) and portrayed. This is my first rewatch as a very self-aware adult and I can't believe how heartbreakingly true to reality her behaviour, experience with trauma etc is. And I love they didn't do a "love cured my depression!" thing like so much media does. Basically, I'm going feral over this and glad someone else gets it lol. Your Gil metas are great too... I also see the ace/demi in him.

aw, shucks, anon!

thank you for your kind words! i'm so glad you enjoy my metas!

the early seasons of the show do such a wonderful job of showing, not telling, where sara is concerned.

with the way her character is constructed, there's no way she's going to talk openly or even obliquely about her past, so everything has to be implied with her; slipped in between the lines.

it's all about not only what she doesn't say but also when she doesn't say it—what weighs heavy in those silences when some case has triggered her.

the show does such a good job filling in the negative space around her history that by the time they actually shade the thing in, it fits perfectly within the frame.

it really is a treat to see how the whole thing unfolds (and also, at least for a few seasons afterward, while the writers are still interested in character development, how sara continues to negotiate her trauma even after she finally confides her secret in grissom).

i'm glad to know you enjoy her storyline so much, too. ❤

[maespri]

i just saw a youtube comment that was like "i was surprised shin didn't talk to kanna and prioritized turning on joe's AI instead during his final moments" and i was like... wow... like there's something really beautiful there. especially considering that the last thing he asks sara is if she "really hates him that much," and she tells him that she does. she does hate him. he still does that for her. he still spends the last shred of his life giving some semblance of closure to the girl whose vote decided his fate, to the girl who beat him, to the girl who he hated first. he doesn't talk to kanna because he needs to tell sara thank-you. thank-you for letting him die. for taking him instead of kanna. Anyway

[black-queen-rising]

Me desperately trying to find this so-called "bias" it often feels like a solid two thirds of this fandom claim that the HotD producers/writers have towards Rhaenyra when literally every single change to other characters has fundamentally come from minimizing/obfuscating/or otherwise reducing her narrative and overall characterization and character.

Yes, I'm sure this woman who they have invented continual bad decisions, internalized misogyny, blatant disregard for the people closest to her, ineptitude, blindspots, and blatant, borderline unbelievable public disdain for in their adaptation of her character; who's background as a victim of child abuse, of continual misogynistic psychological and eventual physical violence, who's love of both other women and her own womanhood, infamy in her charm and popularity and continual attempts (and yes, often failures) to rise above the positions she was forced into they have also ERASED...is actually someone they're going out of their way to portray sympathetically?

Oh, but they favor her because...idk they haven't shown her being violently raped or repeatedly physically abused? Because you believe they actually think that making her seem like an idiot who never knows or thinks about what she's doing is somehow favorable?? Because it seems like ANY of these changes have actually endeared her to the fandom much less the show's general audience??? I literally cannot explain it most of the time, it baffles me.

I know I shouldn't be because why should any of us ever be shocked by misogyny in media anymore? By the portrayal of a woman for a mass-media (and heavily desired male) audience that's reductive and hollow?? But it's simply unreal to see how so many people somehow believe that this was done out of some sort of benevolence or favoritism. That so many people believe any of the changes made in the opposite direction of, and often active opposition to Rhaenyra's portrayal in Fire and Blood, were made out of some sort of desire to make her a tangibly more sympathetic or broadly understandable character, is something I'm not sure I'll ever be able to fully understand.

Except, of course, in the view that I really hope not everyone who says this sort of thing actually believes; that a self-confident woman who exercises her own agency is such an affront that even an unsympathetic, inconsistent, reductive, and idiotic cardboard cutout of a character is still a more respectable alternative.

[drakaripykiros130ac]

All anger aside, it’s really sad what’s happening to the Asoiaf world. Because the books were/are amazing. And now, because of these idiotic shows, you have people calling this and that canon, even if the author never approved it.

GRRM should have had someone more trustworthy to put his work of art on screen, or forced the showrunners to sign an agreement, through which they are not allowed to stray from the books or add any sort of flourishes unless he says it’s okay. Because from the way he recently spoke about the second season, it’s not okay with him. And the fact that he won’t be in the writers’ room for season 3 says a lot.

He is disappointed. But he should have seen this coming, especially with all the political agendas going around these days. All I see in the comment section is “it’s good for representation”. That’s all they care about. Not the story itself. At this point, they should have Daemon and Caraxes hook up. It would be good for zoophilia “representation”.

If these showrunners are so proud of their work, I wonder, why do they constantly feel the need to justify themselves after the episode is out?

I wish someone would redo the Dance of the Dragons, with actors looking exactly as the characters are described in the books, and the actual storyline. Every single thing. I do not care if it’s predictable for book readers. Good. I want to see what I read come alive on screen.

And I want to give a shoutout to @sweetestpopcorn who wrote a wonderful version of the Dance of the Dragons, while staying true to the characters. That’s how it’s done.

[daenerystargaryen06]

Hot take: but maybe it would have been better in the show if in Daemon's most recent vision within Harrenhal it was Aemma he was with over Alyssa.

I have seen both sides of the argument here for and against Daemon's scene with Alyssa. But overall I still get a sense of disgust and question wtf the writers were on when they made that scene with Alyssa and Daemon. If you like the scene, great, more power to you. But overall a good majority of people were revolted by this scene. And I think that if they had replaced Alyssa with Aemma, the scene still would have the same effect, just in a different narrative.

Let's go with the theory that Alys is attempting to use the visions Daemon has as a means of building him up as King. Making him think he should have had what Viserys did, because he was better. Ultimately her goal for this theory is drive Daemon mad and make him think he would make a better ruler over Rhaenyra, thus turning him against her.

Let's begin with a breakdown of this vision. Daemon is committing incest and sexual acts with Alyssa, while she praises Daemon. Here is what all she says to Daemon: "Daemon. Daemon. You were always the strong one. The finest swordsman... the fearless dragonrider. Your brother had great love in his heart... but he lacked your constitution. Viserys was unsuited for the crown... but you... Daemon, you were made to wear it. If only you'd been born first. My favorite son." This dialogue is reminiscent to what Viserys tells Daemon in season 1 episode 4. Daemon was their mother's favorite. He had that in regard above Viserys.

But, why need to showcase him having sex with his mother just for this? The scene could work just as well if you replace Alyssa with Aemma, and it feels so less revolting if it had been Aemma. The reason Aemma would work just as well in this scene is because she is also the representation of what Daemon never had but Viserys did: -A loving wife and Queen with him as King -Their daughter, Rhaenyra, who Daemon clearly favors

-A stable marriage and the appearance of a good life (despite Viserys' actions against Aemma regarding childbirth and her death)

Aemma could have been the Queen Daemon could have gotten if represented in this vision over Alyssa. She could have been implemented as a way of saying- "See? You could have had all that your brother did and more if you had only been born first or made King over Viserys. You should be the one to rule, and Aemma should have been your queen, not Viserys'."

Daemon was stuck in an unhappy, loveless and childless marriage when Viserys was with Aemma. She could have been shown in this vision as a "what Daemon could have if he was King" over what he had been (or what he felt he had been) burdened with. Aemma also possessed Targaryen blood despite also being an Arryn, and has the Targaryen look in the show. She also could have been another known face Alys uses against Daemon to weaponize him against Rhaenyra (like how he saw young!Rhaenyra and Laena).

The dialogue Alyssa says in the show could also be rearranged to fit Aemma: "Daemon. Daemon. You were always the strong one. The finest swordsman... the fearless dragonrider. Your brother had great love in his heart... but he lacked your constitution. Viserys was unsuited for the crown... but you... Daemon, you were made to wear it. If only you'd been born first. My favorite [one/husband/lover/brother (not incest brother but favored brother out of him and Viserys)]."

Really only one word needed to be changed to fit this. The dialogue overall is neutral before that one word 'son' comes into play (fucking nasty). They wouldn't even need to change the blood that was on Alyssa for Aemma either. Aemma had died in childbirth, as Alyssa had, mirroring Daemon's mother's own fate. It still would have had the same effect, which is planting the idea in Daemon's head that he should be King (and should have been made King before Viserys) and manipulating him.

I just feel it would be better if it was Aemma? His mother was a weird take. I get somewhat what the showrunners were trying to do here, as I've said: I've read the arguments and points for Alyssa's implementation into the vision. But it still feels wrong. Targaryen's practiced incest, yes, but never parental x child incest. I get that Daemon never knew his mother but including her into a scene such as that was just... jarring and did not leave the taste I think the showrunners wished it did. I had liked Daemon's arc within Harrenhal up until that point. It was like a gut-punch and just felt icky in the end. And even MANY had assumed that it was Aemma in the vision over Alyssa, which just proves Aemma could have been a better fit over Daemon's own damn mother in this scene and it still would have been just as effective.

Or... maybe, just maybe- if they really were so damn set on it needing to be Daemon's mother in that vision- they should have done it differently.

Idk maybe have Daemon walk into the Throne Room, and instead of young!Rhae, he sees Alyssa. If it has to be intimate, make her treat him like an actual MOTHER would and not a fucking lover. Daemon missed out on having motherly love and affection -don't fucking come in my comments saying 'but Daemon never had motherly love so it makes sense he sees it as sexual since he views women as sexual blahblahblah' go read the fucking books- so they could have used that scene as a way of showing Daemon something he never got to manipulate him and add in the dialogue and boom, same impact.

It's just fucking gross, all right? I wish it was Aemma. I don't wanna see someone having sex with their MOM on screen. It's gross. Never bring that shit before my eyes again.

[chasingfictions]

"i'd rather be fighting you anyway" "mutual" isnt QUITE in the continuum of spuffy marriage moments but it is in the sense that it represents the ouroboros of their relationship that once they enter into knowing each other they are always already loving and losing each other forever the moment they meet in school hard fighting to the not-death they are already clasping hands in chosen full of love as he burns to ash for her. do u understand. anyway whats my line is like. spike's whole deal for his WHOLE LIFE is that he is obsessed with slayers he wants slayers all day every day meanwhile he finds out there are now TWO OF THEM. there's TWO. and he doesnt even ask any questions. this man is a slayerologist and he is presented with the impossible extstence of kendra and he's still like wait ok but i miss buffy where is she. i wanna fight her please. he does this same thing with faith in s7 like they are buds but he doesnt express any urge to like, mystically fight to the death with her or anything. like the teleology of spike's slayer obsession is then coded to actually just be about buffy the whole time. william the bloody gets obsessed with slayers in the 1880s bc buffy summers doesnt exist yet, but she one day will, so he has to get as close to her as possible. in a sense every slayer he kills gets him one step closer to buffy existing so she can kill him. DO YOU SEE. how i am losing my mind.