#meta extrapolations and those posts that are like why do fans ignore this character did xyz or stop acting like this didnt happen

[qprstobin]

I don’t understand why you’re so caught up in what other people choose to interpret as canon what does “acting like this is canon” even mean. we know nothing about steve’s parents apart from slight clues that people take a lot of liberty with interpreting, you included. also fanon popular stobin is way off from canon stobin too. so why is it such an issue when people take details about the other characters and interpret them how they want. the whole tommy and carol thing, you just don’t want them to be shitty people, you love steve so much but you’re fixated on makings excuses for them and trying to downplay how awful they were to him. it makes no sense. he wants nothing to do with them, they were never his real friends and that is canon

I mean I just get frustrated with people taking non-canon things as canon because people use it as an excuse to bash characters and their fans lol. The whole post that prompted this was someone claiming that Steve let Tommy and Carol bully Robin back when they were friends, and that was why she had a good reason to dislike him before (in response to a mutual saying that Robin's reasons for disliking Steve were petty). That's exactly what I mean when I say "acting like something is canon". That doesn't exist in the show! People made that up! But people are talking about it like it's true and not just their headcanons.

Also where did I take liberties with Steve's parents lmao. His dad is a cheater, Steve says that on screen. Can't remember the last time I made a meta or headcanon post about his parents.

I also never said that Carol and Tommy weren't shitheads, I just don't think they were bullies and that I don't think canon supports the common claim that they were bullies. They were assholes but so is.... everyone in the show? The kids spend an entire episode calling El "the psycho" instead of her name lmao. I also disagree that they were so incredibly horrible to Steve or were never his real friends because they seem pretty close on screen but that is something that I think we don't see enough of to tell for sure!

Honestly, even if they were horrible to Steve, I am in fact allowed to like characters my fave doesn't get along with lol. Like I disagree that that is what the text of the show tells us, but it's weird to me to be like "oh I HAVE to hate those characters because they were mean to my fave :((( I'm not allowed to think that they are more nuanced than just being mean to my fave :((("

[dotthings]

Let’s talk about Dean lashing out at Cas and his line “you’re dead to me,” in context of the current situation and what we know and have seen from Dean as a character. This kind of lashing out when Dean is in a great deal of pain, most often because he is terrified of losing, or has lost, someone he loves, is consistent for the character.

No it’s not OOC. No, SPN does not hate Dean. No, it’s not “abusive” and I wish to hell all the TFW lanes would wake up and realize the way some carelessly slap that “abusive” label onto Dean, or onto Cas, or onto Sam, trivializes abuse and hurts fans who are abuse survivors and who relate to the TFW characters for very good reasons. Unhealthy coping mechanisms or way too harsh, or misguided, they do hurt each other. Nothing in me idealizes the TFW relationships or characters and there are all kinds of problems in that familial team which I have blogged about here for actual years. They do have some repeat/cyclical behavior. 

They also have character development and I’ve watched as they grow more self-aware and lesson some of their more unhealthy coping mechanisms and grow more honest with each other. It’s one reason I love S14 so much, it’s so character driven and the characters are vocalizing so much more honestly than they used to. I’ve waited so long for SPN to do a season with this tone. Each of them still makes mistakes but they seem increasingly quicker to realize it, to fully confess to each other what they were thinking, and vocalize their motives. In Dabb era in particular I’ve noted how some things I was used to extrapolating in earlier seasons, things that were tacit in the story, in the build of the characters, are now more often in addition to the story showing it, also being vocalized by the characters themselves.

Character development is good and it is sad when they slip back into unhealthy coping mechanisms again, but they are by nature imperfect characters and in fact those flaws are part of why we love them. So much as they progress, it’s not going to be all self-acceptance sunshine and roses and nothing but mutual understanding and kindness. So long as I am also seeing character development, I’m not going to hit the ceiling every time they mis-step.

Stuff you need to put my post in further context: 

I’m speaking here as someone who writes a lot on Cas pov as well as Dean pov. I’m not someone who bashes the others in Team Free Will and only talks about Dean. I consider myself a dual fan of both characters (I love Sam too but that’s for another discussion, I relate the most to Dean and Cas and that’s just how I’m wired). I’ve been defending Cas for a decade. A literal decade and I don’t bash Cas, I love him, and I wish more Cas fans could at least extent some basic courtesy back and understand that if Cas hate hurts them, Dean hate will hurt people who love Dean.

I’m feeling terrible for Cas right now and I’ve already made a number of posts on his motivations and pov. He withheld information and he shouldn’t have done that, but we know it isn’t all on him, Sam and Dean have already vocalized they know it isn’t all on him, and we also understand why and we know he doesn’t deserve the harsh words Dean said.

Does this mean Dean is a horrible abusive person who doesn’t deserve Cas, doesn’t deserve love (from Cas or fans), because he lashed out?  No.

Does this mean Dean is OOC, has never done anything like this, would never, and the writers are “destroying” the character?  No.

Dean is getting a lot of hate right now. A lot. And he doesn’t deserve it.

What a trap is it to try to counter, in meta, the extreme hot takes of the farthest character pole extremes. Because if I catalog the previous examples of Dean lashing out at a loved one because he’s scared, grieving, hurt, worried, about another loved one, all that will go into standom’s hot takes machine and get spit out as “gotcha! See? He’s abusive! Look how mean he is!” 

They will ignore how soft he is. How he is 90% of the time the biggest softest softie that ever softed. All the instances of how forgiving he is, how loving he is to those he loves, how protective, how gentle. That all flies out the window because Dean lashed out.

Some claim he’d never. Oh yes he has, oh yes he does, and oh yes he just did and there is nothing OOC here.

So I won’t make an extensive list of when he’s lashed out, and an extensive list of his soft squishy loving center would just not fit into one post anyway. But in case you don’t believe me that this lash out here is consistent, remember he screamed “then let it end” at Bobby, Dean broke lamps over Kevin’s death flinging the entire contents of a bunker library to the floor, MoC Dean lashed out at Sam over Charlie’s death, he yelled at Sam for calling Cas, who Dean was gravely worried about in S11, an “it,” he yelled at Sam out of his grief for Cas in S13. Which by the way, Dean again got a ton of hate for, from Cas extremists, who ironically claim Dean isn’t caring enough for Cas, but if he shows the intensity of the pain he is in due to his grief for Cas, that’s wrong too. 

In 14.18 Dean lashes out for a complex set of reasons. Yes, a lot of it is his fear/grief on Mary’s behalf. Losing her is devastating to him and he’s going through it for the second time. A lot of it also is the fact that Cas kept information from him, didn’t go to him. Even though later in the episode Dean follows Sam’s confession about his own need to believe in Jack with his own, even though Dean vocalizes his shared culpability with Cas. The culpability isn’t the only factor here. Dean trusts Cas so much and he loves Cas so much and I think Dean’s also hurt Cas kept something from him and hurt that Cas thought he should fix the thing all on his own and it’s a little too similar to Cas in S6 an we know how that turned out. That doesn’t mean Cas is like he was in S6, I’m talking deep in Dean pov here, what Dean’s fears are and that it reminds him of it and that hurts extra.

I’m not saying it’s not mostly about Mary. But those things about Cas, the closeness of his bond with Cas, and a sense of personal trust being stepped on, that Cas didn’t, personally, go to him, didn’t lean on him, ask for him, confide...that’s also driving why he lashed out. Had Mary not been in peril, Dean probably wouldn’t have impulsively lashed out so hard, but he still would have been hurt Cas kept this from him and said something acerbic. 

None of the dual Dean and Cas fans defending Dean are telling anybody they have no right to be upset or no right to be hurt. Nor are we hand-waving to make Dean perfect. That’s the whole point. I don’t need a perfect Dean to still be a Dean fan.

The lashing out isn’t a healthy coping mechanism and it’s sad what went between Dean and Cas in this episode, but it’s not the destruction of their relationship by any stretch. We already got, right in the episode, self-awareness from Dean’s end, we got Cas’s full emotional confession why he did it. Dean lashed out but Cas didn’t run, he didn’t assume he was no longer wanted at all, I think Cas understands Dean and he, like Dean, is forgiving, and nobody has told Cas to be gone from their sight never to return. It’s just going to take time.

Dean is really isolated right now, reflected in the framing of the TFW scene at the pyre and the TFW in the kitchen, where Dean is shown physically separate in scene blocking. He’s an island. He’s still freezing Cas out, but he needs some time. Let’s see what ep 19 and 20 bring.

Also where am I making excuses for Dean or treating Dean as perfect in this post or blaming Cas? Nowhere, that’s where. 

I’m not interested in countering the Dean bashing by shoving blame onto the writer, because I thought this episode was a complicated honest emotional wallop, and I’m not going to deny Dean the right to be imperfect and complex by saying “he’s OOC” every single time he isn’t the sweetest softest best most supportive softie, every time he has a vulnerability, every time he says something he shouldn’t. It’s fair to say that writers control the character so if you don’t like what a character did, blame the writers, they’re the puppet-masters. But in this case it’s not doing Dean any favors by taking that defense, by denying how complex he is and waving around the “OOC!” flag to try to make it all better. Better IMO to talk about Dean’s pov and motivations and what makes him tick and give him some love that way. 

[stormcloudrising]

The Lord’s Chamber, Season 1 Callbacks and a Certain Scroll – A Season 8 Theory Essay

March 31, 2019

This is a speculative essay about the final season of Game of Thrones and it discusses some of the cast and crew interviews leading up to the premier of the show.  I will read interviews by the actors as a show or movie is about to premier but I also like to avoid learning about any specific spoilers.  By definition, discussing these interviews is not really talking about spoilers but one cannot ignore that sometimes actors or crewmembers do inadvertently make comments that could point to the potential direction of a story.  As I know not everyone will have read the articles and some may not want to know what the actors said, the rest of this discussion will take place under the cut.  If you proceed, do so with the understanding that the subject is about “potential spoilers.”

I’m intrigue by the season 8 photo of Sansa posted above.  It’s possible that it is from an indoor scene but I tend to think that it’s outdoors.  However, it’s hard to say definitively.  To me, it looks like she could possibly be standing in front of a tent or one being set up and that’s part of the reason I find the photo so intriguing.  It makes me wonder whether it is an image of Sansa away from Winterfell.

Of course, if it is a tent, it does not mean that it is not one in the vicinity of Winterfell.  There are a lot of troops arrayed outside the castle and so it could be that she is just visiting the camp with Jon and or other leaders to give the troops encouragement before the great battle.  Nonetheless, I can’t help but extrapolate out based on comments made by the actors, directors and writers in interviews during the publicity rounds for the season premier.

When I first speculated here that Cersei would send the Golden Company north to kidnap Sansa, I suggested that it would happen when Jon sends her away from Winterfell to White Harbor or the Vale for her protection.  I still think that might be how things play out.  In fact, after reading various interviews I’m now more incline to think that will be the case.  A final confrontation between Cersei and Sansa is also a plot thread that has been hanging since season five and while I don’t expect them to meet again in the books, it seems like a foregone conclusion that they will on the show.

For this reason, I’m wondering if the photo of Sansa with what could possibly be a soup bowl in her hand is of her on the road to the Vale and if the scene potentially occurs right before her retinue is attacked by the Golden Company.  The item in her hand does not quite look like a soup bowl—at least not one that would be used by the lords and ladies of the realm.  However, it might be one used by common soldiers and so it’s possible that it is one of them who offer her soup.  This is of course pure speculation on my part and so the scene could be of something totally different.

The actors and those behind the show have stated that there will be a lot of callbacks to the first episode of the series and we can already see this will be the case from the trailer.  Arya is in Wintertown as Dany arrives just as she was in episode one when Robert came to Winterfell.  There is a young boy shown from a roof looking at the army as it arrives just as Bran watched the knights of Robert’s court.  As an aside, I fully expect bad things to happen to the little boy as it did to Bran.  And of course, Sansa greets Dany as Ned welcomed King Robert and hands Winterfell over to her for the duration of her stay.

With so many callbacks shown in the trailer, it’s to be expected that there will be more in the actual show.  In point of fact, I expect there to be a callback to one of the two most important scenes from the first episode of the series, and which also jumpstarted the entire story.   I am of course talking of Cat receiving the scroll from Lysa and the message stated therein.

The scene took place in the Lord’s Chamber.  Ned and Cat were lying in bed after making love when Maester Luwin arrived with the scroll from Lysa saying that the Lannisters murdered her husband.  On the show, the Lord and Lady of Winterfell are in robes and so it is not as obvious as on the pages that they had just made love.  In the books, we get the end of the encounter and Cat thoughts about it. She also gets out of the bed naked in front of Luwin after he arrives with the scroll.  When Ned comments that she is embarrassing the maester, she responds that he has birth all her children and so has seen everything she has to offer on multiple occasions.

After reading Lysa’s note, Ned decides to accept Robert’s request that he become the Hand of the King.  On the show, Cat is resistant to him going while in the books, she encourages him to do so.  In both instances, she is looking to protect her family.  And so Ned heads to Kings Landing with the king where he meets his death and his family’s life is all but destroyed as a result.  As a callback, I think that we may get a similar scene this season involving a scroll but it won’t be one that comes via a raven.

Many of us have speculated on the possibility of something of a romantic nature happening in the Lord’s Chamber between Jon and Sansa.  For myself, I’ve felt that it was a strong possibility since the writers made a point of letting the audience know that Jon had arranged for her to have the suite…especially as it was done in the same scene that he gave her that longing forehead kiss. My theory is that once the truth about Jon’s identity comes out, the emotional scene that David Nutter mentioned will occur between him and Sansa in the Lord’s Chamber and it will lead to them making love.

“The fans will not be let down,” says director David Nutter. “There are a lot of firsts in these episodes. There’s the funniest sequence I’ve ever shot on this show, the most emotional and compelling scene I’ve ever shot, and there’s one scene where there’s so many [major characters] together it feels like you’re watching a superhero movie.”-David Nutter, Entertainment Weekly

I think this for several reasons.  First, as I’ve mentioned, with all the callbacks to the first episode, it makes sense that there is one of the scene between Ned and Cat in the Lord’s Chamber as it was so important to the story.  Secondly, Sansa having a romantic encounter with a man who loves her for herself and not her inheritance has been part of her character arc in both on the show and in the books.  On the show, Petyr sold her to the Boltons and we all know what happened there.  Unfortunately, I don’t rule out something similar happening in the Vale from either Petyr or Harry the Heir.  It maybe just an attempt but I definitely can see it happening.

Since she escaped from Ramsay’s clutches on the show, Sansa has been understandably protecting herself both mentally and physically.  Part of this self-protection is reflected in how she dresses.  She is always covered from head to toe and she dresses in clothing that are difficult to take off.  Even her hands are not available for anyone to touch.  The only people who have been allowed to touch any part of her have been her family when she reunited with them.  These have included a few notable moments with Jon—when she grabs his hand and most notably when he gave her the forehead kiss.  

A part of Sansa’s arc has also been about learning to trust again and to allow a man in.  It is without a doubt not the only part of her arc and it is not even the most important.  Nevertheless, it is an aspect of her story and the likelihood of a romantic encounter between her and a man has been percolating throughout her arc.  The only question is with whom.  

Unlike what some think, it won’t be with the Hound as in my opinion, his part in her story…especially in the books will ultimately be shown to be about Jon or at least Jon as he will be upon his return.  The Hound’s savage nature reflects what Jon will be like when he returns from the dead after his consciousness spends some time in Ghost.  I think it’s why Martin gave him a moniker reminiscent of a wolfhound.  And as Sansa tempered the Hound, she will temper Jon.  Plus, Sandor Clegane is old enough to be Sansa’s father and relationships between older men and girls young enough to be their daughters are one that George’s writings shows to be abhorrent and must end.

It also won’t be Tyrion for too many reasons to list…least of all being that Sansa would never join with a Lannister after what they did to her family.  Plus, that is not the story either George or D&D have been writing.  And it most certainly won’t be Gendry or Pod…two men she doesn’t know.  In my book, this only leaves Jon.  A romantic relationship between the two has been hinted at in both the books and show.  And as there are only 6 episodes left, it has to happen this season.  

We also need to remember that this is Game of Thrones that we are talking about and the writers like to throw sex at the audience.   With war and almost certain death looming for most of our heroes, it’s almost guaranteed that there will be at least one this year as well and I suspect it will be the most important one of the entire series.  Making love and connecting to another human being before going off to war is a popular trope in both literature and the visual medium.  When one knows that one is facing death, it forces you to deal and acknowledge what is most important.  

Another reason I think that there will be a romantic encounter between the two eldest remaining Starks in the Lord’s Chamber is because since they reunited, D&D has written them with the angst George described in his original outline for Jon and Arya.  And so it seems possible to me that based on D&D’s writing George quite likely switched things up with the sisters.  There are many great metas out there that breakdown the many book clues point to a potential romantic relationship between Jon and Sansa and so there is no need to delve into those them here again as this article is about the show.

The scene I propose will occur between Jon and Sansa may also explain why things were downplayed in the one between him and Dany.  I think the emotional baring of the soul by Jon’s in regards to the truth about his heritage, the fact that he was killed by his men and an examination of his scars both of the physical and mental variety will take place between him and Sansa.  The examination of both their scars will be between them and I am of the opinion that this is the emotional scene David Nutter referenced in the EW interview.

If as I proposed there is a romantic encounter between Jon and Sansa that harkens back to the one between Ned and Cat from episode one, then I think that just as Luwin knocked on the door of the Lord’s Chamber after N&C made love, Sam will do the same with the younger Starks.  Like with Luwin, Sam will come bearing a scroll with bad news.  And I think that it will turn out to be this scroll that Sophie was referring to in her interview.  

However, unlike the one from Lysa, it won’t arrive via a raven.  Nonetheless, just as the one from Lysa resulted in Ned, the Lord of the House heading south, I think that the one Sam bears will mean the same thing for Sansa, the current Lady of Winterfell as Jon sends her away for protection.  I also think that in Kings Landing, we will get to see a reenactment of the tale told by the common folks in the books of how she escaped from the Red Keep.

"The dwarf's wife did the murder with him," swore an archer in Lord Rowan's livery. "Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws."

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VII

If the scroll that Sam bears does not arrive via a raven then the question becomes, where did it come from.  Well, as I’ve speculated in other posts, I’m of the opinion that it was unknowingly brought to Winterfell by Sam himself.  In fact, I suspect that it is the very same scroll that Sam is shown stealing in the scene below of when he left the Citadel.  You can find the specific theft at the 2:07 mark.

We are shown hundreds of scrolls on the shelves and yet Sam only takes one. And now we find out from Sophie and Maisie’s interview that a scroll will play an important role in the final season.  I don’t know about you but I’m adding 1 and 1 and getting 2.  

To add more fire to my theory, consider the photo released of Jorah and Dany standing in what looks to be an office with a shelf filled with scrolls behind them.  Just happenstance?  I say not.  I suspect that this is the same office that Sam has been using since he came to Winterfell and knowing him, he most likely just stashed the scroll he took from the Citadel in with the ones already on the shelf with plans to look at it later.

Now if I’m right and the scroll in question is the one Sam stole, the size of it suggests that it is not the type that usually bears a message.  The fact that it was taken from the Citadel also indicates that it contains old and possibly even truly ancient knowledge.  If so, then it most likely has something to do with the mystery surrounding the Night King and the White Walkers.

Things get even more interesting when you consider the fact that Sophie’s comment about the scroll being given to her as a memento of her time on the show strongly suggests that whatever is in it has to do with the character of Sansa Stark.  The obvious question then becomes, why would an ancient scroll about the Night King have something to do with Sansa?  Nothing would be the obvious answer!  Unless that is, the scroll in question has something to do with the Corpse Queen.

The story of the Night’s King is also the story of the Corpse Queen.  The two go hand in hand.  In this instance, I am talking about the book version and not the Night King from the show.  However, as his tale in the books is knotted to that of his queen, I believe that there also must be one on the show.

Many in the fandom have proposed that because white has been introduced into Dany’s costume in such a way as to promote the idea of her as the Night’s Queen (the fandom name for the Corpse Queen), it must mean that she is the one that the NK is after.  I for one think that is just the writers working to throw people of the true trail.  The Corpse Queen is ice not fire.  

The only two remaining female characters on the show that fulfill the necessary criteria are Arya and Sansa.  I happen to think that the elder Stark daughter with her “kissed by fire” hair will turn out to be queen in more ways than one.  And as I proposed in this essay about her kidnapping by Cersei, Beric will give her the “kiss of life.”  Sansa will literally have been kissed by fire when Beric brings her back.  Hence, when she ascends to the throne…whether of all of Westeros or just of the North, she will for all intents and purposes be the Corpse Queen.

Now, I have to say that I strongly think that things will play out in a totally different manner in the books.  I’m not saying that Sansa won’t be the modern day version of the Corpse Queen.  I think that will also be the case in the books.  However, I think that the seeds George sprinkles in his garden to get there will be much different than Dan and Dave.

Before I end, I want to mention a couple of other callbacks I think will play out in the final season.  Based on the trailer, I would not be surprise to see a version of the scene between Ned and Cat in the Godswood from the first episode.  We don’t see Sansa in the shot of Jon by the weirwood tree but I suspect that she is either sitting on the limb and Jon’s body is hiding her or else, she will approaching him just as Cat did to Ned as he was cleaning Ice.  

I also think that the scene of Dany approaching Jon in the crypts is a call back to Ned and Robert visiting Lyanna’s statue in season one.  While the obvious thought is that Jon is standing in front of the statue, I’m not quite sure that is the case because as @thelawyerthatwaspromised pointed out in her breakdown essay of the scene, Dany’s approach from the other side of the crypt does not match up with the location of Lyanna’s statue (unfortunately, I couldn’t find the essay in question to post a link).  It’s possible that the positioning of the statue is a mistake on the part of the show but I doubt it.  

I don’t know the reason but even if he is not standing in front of his mother’s statue in the trailer, I suspect that he and Dany will still have a conversation in front of it.  It is here that I suspect Jon and Dany will have the conversation about her burning Sam’s father and brother.  Her face as she approaches him is filled with trepidation.

What she did to Sam’s family and the other men who didn’t bend the knee is partially why just as Ned did not tell Robert the truth in that the moment, Jon also will not reveal his true identity to Dany.  He will fear the danger the revelation could mean to him and his family as well as the effect her potential actions could have on the battle against the White Walkers.  Plus, he has no interest in the Iron Throne.

As I said at the beginning, this is purely a speculative essay but with the many callbacks expected, it’s quite possible that some of these scenarios I proposed might indeed play out.

[i-want-my-iwtv]

I'm going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way. Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really? I want to do a thread, but I don't want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous. And I sincerely apologize if I've offended you by asking the question. I just dunno.

[By the way, I usually answer things with a relevant fanart/image/gif, but in this case, I think it’s too serious a topic for that.]

“And I sincerely apologize if I’ve offended you by asking the question.”

No offense taken, it’s a fair question! 

I am a little wary that this is a bait set out by those who see things in RP/fiction as “promoting” something in real life. A bait set to invite the kind of anti-shippers who are looking for a way to tear me down regardless of how I respond, when all I ever want to promote is:

The 3 Laws of Fandom.

(And I’ll quote a relevant piece of it from @ozhawkauthor, but please read the whole post):

���Much (though not all) fandom is about shipping. There are as many possible ships as there are fans, maybe more. You may have an OTP (One True Pairing), you may have a NOTP, that pairing that makes you want to barf at the very thought of its existence.

It’s not up to you to police ships or to determine what other people are allowed to ship. Just because you find that one particular ship problematic or disgusting, does not mean that other people are not allowed to explore its possibilities in their fanworks.

You are free to create contrarian content, to write meta about why a particular ship is repulsive, to discuss it endlessly on your private blog with like-minded persons.

It is not appropriate to harass creators about their ships, it is not appropriate to demand they do not create any more fanworks about those ships, or that they create fanwork only in a manner that you deem appropriate.

These three laws add up to the following:

You are not paying for fanworks content, and you have no rights to it other than to choose to consume it, or not consume it. If you do choose to consume it, do not then attack the creator if it wasn’t to your taste. That’s the height of bad manners.

Be courteous in fandom. It makes the whole experience better for all of us.”

I want to make it very clear that I’m answering this as someone who supports exploring dark themes and taboo topics in fiction/RP. As long as you are not violating real living person’s rights, or invading any real living person’s space*, then you are doing nothing wrong. I’ve been blocked. I try to tag for things that can be triggering/upsetting to others, but I will not self-censor to appease everyone, so I absolutely support ppl unfollowing/blocking me if what I post makes them uncomfortable.

*Posting your fic/RP with the appropriate warning tags is a form of respecting others’ space and rights. If they don’t like your writing, they can block you, too. Their dashboard is their responsibility.

“I want to do a thread, but I don’t want to trigger anyone or make it look all grim and incestuous.” 

I think grim and incestuous could be very interesting to explore; not every fic/RP can be a fluffy Coffee Shop AU! 

Re: Concern about triggering anyone, I’ll repeat myself, it is everyone’s responsibility to curate their own fandom experience and as long as you are tagging and putting content under cuts, it is their responsibility to protect themselves. If they are incapable of that, then they should ask a trusted person to monitor their internet use. 

People are triggered by many things, not just taboo and darker themed writing. This person’s triggers are Jello, Popsicles, Soup Broth, please read it! And to quote from that post, “a lot of ‘activists’ on tumblr aren’t looking to actually help anyone or make anything better: they’re sadists cruising for new victims.”

TL; DR: Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing.** If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly. 

**If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing that with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it. 

Hit the jump for my response, cut for length, and discussion about possible incest between fictional characters.

“I’m going to be roleplaying with someone and they want to do a mother/son relationship, like not in the usual way.”

Is there a “usual way” to RP? If you’re suggesting in the ship way, it is something I’m sure exists.

Ppl RP with canon in mind, or without it. 

“Like, what is the ACTUAL relationship between Gabrielle and Lestat? What is it really?”

That is a question with a ton of landmines, so I’m not going to say that they are definitely a ship or definitely not, it’s up to the individual reader/RPer to decide based on their reading of canon, or diverge from canon and write the characters however they see fit. This kind of exploration is one of many ways to engage with the characters and I see nothing wrong with canon-compliant or not canon-compliant writing, either way.

Personally, I can see both sides of the argument. 

>>Not as a ship: There are some who see them purely as a mother and a son, and DEFINITELY nothing more. She does come to his rescue at the rock concert (how did she know to go to him? She has telepathy, but being his fledgling, she cannot read Lestat’s mind; she could have picked up the warnings from other vampires, or Louis might have contacted her), there are several times in canon when she asserts herself in an authoritative manner. She’s protective of him when he’s in a coma, and she slaps some sense into him when necessary. All these things can be filed under “motherly.”

It’s easy to not ship them, so I don’t really need to provide further canon evidence, they are, biologically, mother and son! There’s nothing more to add to that.

>>As a ship, Unpopular Opinion: one could argue that they can be shipped, because:

A) He becomes her maker, which changes their relationship to him being more of the “parent.” 

- During the initial phase of Lestat turning Gabrielle in TVL, as he’s taking her life, he says she’s no longer his mother (to be fair, this is the kind of intimacy a vampire feels when feeding on anyone, but still, worth mentioning):

Myknowledge dimmed and flickered and there was no mother anymore,no petty need and petty terror; she was simply who she was. She wasGabrielle.

- Then, once she’s turned, she insists on being called by her name instead of “Mother,” so some take that as proof that she doesn’t see herself as being his mother anymore, in the mortal sense of the word. 

B) The act of making a vampire is extremely intimate, it has been compared to childbirth. It’s the most intimate act a vampire can share with anyone. I believe in fanon that it creates a physiological bond between maker and fledgling, so one could extrapolate to say that the act itself could create a ship. 

Note: In most maker/fledgling relationships, there is some assumption that turning the fledgling is done to bind maker and fledgling as a ship; essentially making the fledgling into a companion for the maker and the maker into a companion for the fledgling. In this case, Lestat turned Gabrielle in order to save her life, not knowing if he would even survive the act, so I don’t think this was a factor here, neither of them necessarily intending to be in a relationship together, but the physiological bond discussed above would still be a possibility.

Also worth mentioning is that he asks for her consent, as he had not been asked for consent himself, and the question is very clear:

No words again, just the silent thrust of it, and the question, more immense than could ever be put into words, Do you want to come with me now? DO YOU WANT TO COME WITH ME INTO THIS NOW? I hide nothing from you, not my ignorance, not my fear, not the simple terror that if I try I might fail. I do not even know if it is mine to give more than once, or what is the price of giving it, but I will risk this for you, and we will discover it together, whatever the mystery and the terror, just as I’ve discovered alone all else. With her wholebeing she said Yes.

^This could be construed as him wanting her for a companion and her agreeing to it. 

C) LET’S TALK ABOUT SEX. This is a point of debate for many fans, whether the Ricean vampires can have penetrative sex. In my opinion, in canon they cannot, and while penetrative sex is NOT A REQUIREMENT to a relationship (there are relationships where there is no penetrative sex and they are no less valid than those which do have it, in my opinion), the incestuous aspect of a Lestat/Gabrielle ship is alot less squicky for me knowing that they aren’t able to literally bone in the mortal way. Some would argue that the bloodsharing is more intimate than penetrative sex, and that’s fine, but still, being unable to literally bone is just so much less squicky, in my opinion. But ppl made fanart of essentially that and it was still very funny, to me! 

Call it what you will, but the first bloodkiss shared in canon is between Lestat and Gabrielle on the night she is turned.

^^^ALL THAT SAID, I wouldn’t shoot anyone down who ships it, they are both adult fictional characters. One could argue that there is some canon evidence to support it, but canon evidence is unnecessary. 

Again, Anon, do what you and your partner are comfortable doing. If RPing it as a ship squicks you both out, don’t do it. If Rping it as a ship is exciting to you both and you want to explore that taboo, go for it! Just be sure to tag it with the right warnings, and add cuts so that ppl will be protected from content they may not want to see. You can also RP privately however you like, there is no rule that says RP must be done publicly. 

If your RP partner is pressuring you to RP something you are uncomfortable with, then I would suggest not RPing with them, and similarly, if you are pressuring your RP partner to RP something they are uncomfortable with, I would suggest not pressuring them into it. 

[tonyglowheart]

1, 5, 19, 22 for the salty fandom asks

hey, anon, thanks for playing! (….I only realized now just what a can of worms I may be opening, but hashtag yolo, I go down, I go down in a blaze of salty glory I guess)

under a read-more because this…..got long………why am I even so salty why can’t I Chill,,,,,, :’)

[send me more numbers if you want to see more of me being a messy salty windbag lmao :’)]

1. What OTPs in your fandom(s) do you just not get?

Honestly I don’t even consider this an OTP bc I’m so ??? but like….phl/int?? I just. Do not understand. And to this day. Still do not. And yet it’s sUCH a huge one in the fandom???? somehow??????

Honestly I kind of have an idea of some of the impetus but that is something I don’t even want to get into right now lmao.

5.Has fandom ever ruined a pairing for you?

oH BOY, has it 8) 8). e.g. I literally Cannot with st*cky bc of the shit some of the nastier ppl put us (st/ony/tony fans through) back in the day. Like…..I literally had to blacklist bc I cannot even look at them 8) and every time I wanted to find Steve meta it was all st*cky stuff somehow. Plus, there was a time when the prevailing characterization (or at least that I saw) was really REALLY like……codependent and stuff? Like honestly I didn’t even hate/dislike any other ships at first, I even watched Kings just for Seb Stan?? Who I thought was great in it, he’s got a real way of angsting wordlessly that’s really effective. And also benefited him as the Winter Soldier. But like……I have him blacklisted now because I just 8) 8) when I see that/stucky stuff. 

19. What is the one thing you hate most about your fandom?

the fact that canon is just so *massages temples* like all the time? Like honestly, on one hand I get the whole “ignore canon and enjoy it anyway” dealio, but on the other hand, I actually AM really resentful that I was trying to get into comics RIGHT as there was just…so much shit going on? Like I think one big moment I remember was during AXIS, which is…yikes. and then SIM, which we don’t talk about, which is more yikes? And then idk some other stuff, and incursions and prevailing grimdark culture (like it was all “hah, you thought superheroes would save you? Think again, NO ONE can save ANYONE!” like. c’mon, guys. You still WANT to make money, right?), and then whatever the heck secret wars/battleworld was. And then CWII???? and then Neo-Nazis Everywhere now. So like. y i kes.

and I wasn’t even really around during the first CW, and I’m already incredibly tired of it everywhere, including in MCU. Plus, I feel like Steve has been REALLY getting the short end of the stick with regards to everything. He’s sort of been at the mercy of whoever’s writing, and I kind of get the feeling ppl have just been sublimating their own vision of who the Captain America ideal should be (or subverting it for grimdark ~gritty~ ~realism~) and then extrapolating Steve from that, even though they COULD have done interesting stuff with juxtaposing those standards, Steve’s own moral standards, and maybe the conflict between him being a symbol for people but having his own views and stuff. I only just now in CW feel like I REALLY got a sense of who Steve is as a character, but unfortunately what coalesced is hardly flattering to the character :/

And like……honestly there’s a lot of stuff fandom-side, too. Off hand, I don’t think there’s much I hate about the Stevetony fandom? but I guess in terms of who I think about for that, it’s a specific subset of people I’ve seen around and interacted with or have followed for a bit. Like I haven’t really followed anyone new for a while now. but the marvel fandom at large….like….yike…………..the MCU fandom…… so much yike there. That specific subset of shippers who still think shipping is a great expression of LGBT allyship, who are the ones going “who do people even ship xxx??”, or just like….hating on people lmao.

Another thing I lowkey hate that isn’t necessarily directed at individual ppl is like….when non-Stevetony/tony fans are like “wow why are stevetony/tony fans so hateful/mean, they keep calling Steve a snake” or w.e Like….I get it bc they’re part of, e.g. the stucky fandom, and they’ve had the blessing of only coming into contact with nice ppl and never was on the receiving end of attacks or bullshit. But boy howdy, have Stevetony/Tony fans Been Through Some Shit. There’s a lot of, honestly, hurt there, and part of it is we spent so much time like mild about it and apologetic and we want some turnabout. It’s like that one tumblr post that’s like “fuck anyone who says forgive them ‘for my sake’ I’ve worked hard to hate them,” like for a LONG time, we were like “yes we love Tony, yes we know he’s not perfect, yes we acknowledge his flaws,” like we couldn’t just straight-up say we loved him as a character, we had to caveat it, and it was seen as a perfectly normalized part of the experience, to expect someone to come like “okay but also he’s evil because xxx” and have to be like “yeah okay we acknowledge xxxx but xxx.” Honestly I will fight for the right of ppl to their salt and try to contextualize as much as I can when I see stuff like that. bc you may not know but we haven’t forgotten :’)

There’s also a thing where I can’t tell if they’re in the stevetony fandom or they just….make posts, but those like …. “relatable” shipping posts that I sometimes will see bc mobile will rec it? Like I honestly hate those lmao. I find them cringey and painful to see. (those ones that are like “people think I’m so sweet and innocent but really I’m thinking of my gay ship fucking” or w.e like. maybe at some point I was like “omg same!” but now I’m like “please get this away from my face.” Or those ones where it’s like chat format like “isn’t xx sad?” “yeah isn’t it sad my ship isn’t canon?” or whatever like. D: D: that just makes me nnnoOOOOooooOOOOOooo inside. If you search a smattering of tumblr popular ships in tumb search You Will See Them. like, if you search johnlock destiel sterek or something like that. bc these ppl tag them with a million ship tags)

on that vein, really anyone tagging stuff with like character/ship tags that, imo, really....aren’t so much abt the ship but about themselves? Like, someone tagged their salt ask answer post with the character tags and I had to see someone say they don’t like stevetony and think comics Tony is a dick. Can You Think Before You Goddamn Tag pls and just Not. like ppl who bARELY mention Tony and still tag him in the tags........you realize it’s all going in a page right? it’s not just for your own blog? (but even then, what use is it to your blog when you mostly say “yeah I’ll be talking about him a lot!” but don’t.....actually say much about him.....in your post.............

There is still a lot of tony hating but honestly I’ve got so many ppl blocked now that I see more ppl referencing the antis in the tags (ugh) than I do actually antis anywhere. which honestly also kind of annoys me bc like. I am going into the Tony tag for content on my fave not content on the antis. 

I am just now realizing the original question said “one thing” and I went on about Many Things, so I am cutting myself off now lmao whoops

22.Popular character you hate?

I think honestly the closest is probably Coulson lmao. Like. I just. Don’t see the appeal in him as a character at all. And recently I was watching a bunch of vid compilations for Iron Man and EVERY TIME there was like “and there’s someone else you pissed off. his name is phil” i”m like “:/ :/ but did that part REALLY have to be there??” like sure I get it it’s their vid compilation. But just. What Is The Appeal.

And honestly……I’m kind of :/ about MCU Clint, too? Like, Fraction’s Hawkeye is awesome, but somehow that doesn’t really register as Clint to me. AA’s Clint is fine, but for some reason my mind tends to default to MCU Clint unless there’s further elaboration, and I just :/ :/ >:( re: him.

I also hate Howard but idk if he’s “popular” lol. I seriously hope not 8)