#lyanna stark x elia martell

[blue-rose-of-wolves]

Elia Martell week 2024, Day 2: Elia with her partners. Elia and Lyanna

@asoiafrarepairs @eliamartellappreciation @saltywinteradult @forcesmuggler @love-dragoneyes @irisewithsunyourisewiththemoon

[swee26oy]

Lyanna stans have a big mouth for criticizing Elia/Rhaegar ship and calling it unrealistic (when they were literally married in the books and had 2 kids). But they are the same people who ship Lyanna/Jaime, Lyanna/Arthur, and many others. Mind you, there is not a single reference in the books to these relationships. But you know who does. Elia Martell has a correlation with these men and it is a Canon according to the books and she had several suitors before she married Rhaegar. So once again Lyanna stans are jealous because their bitch doesn't have that by the way they call her Princess Lyanna and there is no way she can be a princess. It's completely unrealistic. Even if she married Rhaegar, the most she would get is a noble lady. Elia Martell is already a princess because that's her birth title, she didn't get it from Rhaegar. Elia is her own person.

(Also just because elia stans posted fan art of elia with rhaegar doesn't mean they like rhaegar. It's too big for your little mind to comprehend).

[elainarcheronstotebag]

saddest part of elia’s story is that she didn’t even get to haunt the narrative. her death literally meant nothing to no one except for dorne/house martell. no, instead show!lyanna, the woman who ran away with her husband gets the sympathy and her legacy lives on. her ghost haunts robert/cersei/ned, but barely anyone even mentions elia’s name except for oberyn. elia died is such a tragic and cruel way with her children, and will never receive justice because to do so would harm lyanna’s memory.

and i don’t blame book!lyanna, because she was young and most likely a victim herself, i would like to think she’d be angry that elia died like that “for her.” i literally fall to my knees and sob anytime i think of my poor sweet beautiful angel elia and her babies:(

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

Why do you think the tides have slightly turned from "Elia deserves better than Rhaegar" to shipping her and Rhaegar together? Like what is the psychology behind these people because I've seen some of them like/reblog anti Rhaegar posts while also shipping Rhaegar x Elia at the same time.

hey anon! my thoughts are a bit messy, but i’ve done my best to explain them coherently :)

so, rhaegar was the best man anyone could have when elia was alive, and most people want the best for their favs. he was considered the most handsome, didn’t have a bad personality, and he was crown prince—meaning elia was almost queen, which is often seen as the greatest role a woman can have. the narrative also treats rhaegar as a beautiful, tragic, haunting figure, and elia actually had this very aesthetically pleasing man all to herself at one point! she was married to him, had children with him, and her life was so close to perfect! but rhaegar just had to go and ruin it. 😠

for many elia stans, if rhaegar hadn’t fallen in love with another woman (they want him to have been a completely different character), then everything would’ve been perfect, and elia would’ve had the best, most desirable life. however, that’s not what happened—elia met a very tragic end, and as a result, these stans feel double the bitterness. because of this bitterness, they blame rhaegar for everything (even though it’s not logical to do so), but he’s just too ‘perfect’ to let go of. so, for years these stans have made rhaegar revolve around elia, filling his tag with posts about her out of bitterness. so, i do believe that this obsession with rhaegar x elia has always been there, but i think it’s become a more favorable stance on the elia stan side of the fandom because of a mix of reasons.

plus, rhaegar is one of the few canon relationships we know elia had, since she’s not much of a character. because of this, and the fact that most people don’t like to stray too far from canon, most elia stans are forced to focus on rhaegar, which has created an echo chamber. basically, if a sentiment about elia and rhaegar’s relationship becomes popular, then the whole elia stan side of the fandom will likely regurgitate the sentiment. (also, this desire to stick close to canon is likely why the elia x arthur ship was so popular. while it’s a total crack ship, it had good aesthetics, and since elia and arthur at least knew each other, it allowed the stans to create their perfect fanfiction whilst sticking it to rhaegar. but remember, elia was actually married to rhaegar and had children with him, so while arthur is cool, rhaegar was always ‘top dog,’ meaning arthur would never be able to match up to rhaegar to most elia stans. also, the arthur x elia crack ship is likely her second most popular ship, which just shows how little elia stans have to work with, so they’re always forced to eventually return back to rhaegar for a lot of things.)

however, even if the elia x rhaegar ship gains more popularity, these stans will never stop hating rhaegar because he wasn’t ‘perfect’—and he wasn’t perfect because he didn’t love elia. plus, rhaegar loving another woman and supposedly kidnapping her is what began the war that led to elia’s tragic death. that’s bitterness times 1000. and while i don’t actually blame rhaegar for the war, i do think that this is how an elia stan sees it. i also don’t view rhaegar’s complex relationship with elia as a bad thing—it’s actually a very realistic take on an arranged marriage between two decent people. but most elia stans will never be able to get over the fact that they almost had everything, which is why many have it out for lyanna, as they consider her a thief who ruined their ‘perfection.’

tbh, that might be why so many elia stans are so obsessed with the idea that rhaegar only got with lyanna because of the prophecy—they don’t want to believe that rhaegar actually loved a different woman and not their perfect self insert elia. that’s a bit mean of me… but i don’t know what else one would call the ‘elia’ elia stans have created.

now that i’ve laid all those thoughts out, i’ll try to explain why the tides seem to be turning… i think it may have something to do with the ‘targaryens are all evil and bad’ sentiment losing popularity. i think this shift has occurred due to a mix of factors, such as years of fandom fights and fandom cycles leading to the targs being more liked now than before. it helps that canon doesn’t actually condemn the targs/favors them quite a bit, and the influx of new targ fans from HOTD has also contributed. this combination of reasons seems to have shifted the way the mainstream fandom discusses all the targaryen characters, including rhaegar. so, with this shift, it’s only natural that some elia stans/elia x rhaegar shippers—who’ve always been there—are using this opportunity to push their agenda. while these stans still hate rhaegar and see him as the bad guy, they just can’t let go of him. and as the mainstream fandom moves away from the anti targaryen sentiment, these smaller corners of the fandom, which tend to be echo chambers, are also affected, which has therefore led to a rise in rhaegar x elia shippers and the ‘shifting tide’ that you’ve also noticed.

[dr3adlady]

February 2024 Romance Drawing Challenge

Day 8: Elia Martell and Lyanna Stark

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[cowboysanddragons23]

Debunking Rhaelya shippers' arguments:

-"Dorne doesn't frown on polygamy.": Dorne is very sexually liberal in many things, but polygamy is not one of them. They are still a class society (ex. Oberyn would never marry Ellaria even though he genuinely loves her, Quentyn Martell was a virgin and Arianne would never marry Daemon Sand.) and polygamy is illegal under the eyes of the Old and New Gods and since Jaehaerys I outlawed it and for a very good reason.

-"Elia and Rhaegar had an agreement about his affair with Lyanna." "Elia would have been ok with Rhaegar going with Lyanna." "Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife along with Elia.": Elia would have never agreed to Rhaegar cavorting with Lyanna, because that would be giving her enemies a recently sharpened sword to murder her and her children, as she knows that the cause of the Blackfyre Rebellions was the anti Dornish sentiment towards Myriah Martell and her son Baelor. Also, Maegor was the last Targaryen king who attempted enforced polygamy having a dragon and even he couldn't make the Faith bow. Rhaegar has no dragons to inspire obedience.

-"Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love." "Rhaegar and Lyanna was a love story." "Rhaegar would have been a great king." "Rhaegar would care about Jon." "Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been a great king and queen.": There is no evidence that points out that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love, aside from the testimony of Barristan Selmy (who was never at the Tower of Joy, thus he doesn't know what truly happened). Rhaegar was Summerhall made flesh; obsession with prophecies, grandiose plans to save the world and willingness to sacrifice women into its altar. He took Lyanna because he wanted to prove that the prophecy that led to his birth was real and that the sacrifices his family made were worth something. Whatever fondness he had for Lyanna, his Third Head of the Dragon always came first. Rhaegar and Lyanna wouldn't have been good parents to Jon, because the former would give up on him from birth because he isn't the Visenya he wanted and the latter would be too young to be a mother (Viserys II and Larra Rogare everyone?). And besides, thousands died for it and the same happened when Duncan Targaryen married Jenny of Oldstones (who are exactly the romantic love story Rhaelya is erroneously interpreted as). Rhaegar is too obsessed with prophecies and Lyanna is utterly disinterested in ladylike pursuits.

[queen-helaenas-pet-spider]

Satin Flowers Theories That Spark Joy:

1. He is a highborn!!!!

DEFINITELY POSSIBLE!!!!!! Satin having skills that mainly a highborn would have {reading, writing, etc}, him being bad at keeping fires in Jon's fireplace going {which is something a servant would do, and not a highborn}, etc.

2. He is the real Prince Aegon Targaryen {son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Princess Elia Martell *who was "killed" when Tywin Lannister and his army sacked King's Landing*} and not Young Griff!!!!

A little out there, I know, but it's a fun theory!!!!!!!! If Satin is Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon, and Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's Aegon {or whatever Jon's real name might be, I really hope it's not Aegon}, then that means Jon Snow has been one - sidedly trying to court his half brother for 3 books {knowing the Valyrian's, that's not a bad thing, but they're both men, and one or both of them might not be into it}.

And if they're both Rhaegar's sons, them and Daenerys {Rhaegar's little sister} completes yet another 3 headed dragon {Dany as Aegon The Conqueror, Satin/Potential Aegon #? as Rhaenys, and Jon/Potential Aegon #? as Visenya. Walk with me. W A L K W I T H M E ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! }

More cons: 1. Satin being Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon would mean that another heir to the Iron Throne has thrown his life away to serve at a place that will kill you if you try to quit. And 2. As far as we know, Jon and their friends are the only support he has, and that wouldn't be enough to help him reclaim the throne {that Daenerys is also fighting for}.

3. He is one of Robert Baratheon's bastards!!!

Robert {a Baratheon man with Targaryen blood} was in love with a Stark man {Ned Stark, and not Ned's sister Lyanna *who went to war for, but couldn't even remember what she looked like*} and now Jon {A Stark man with Targaryen blood} in love with another potential Baratheon man with Targaryen blood?!?!?!?! {They'd still be related, but not as close as they'd be if he was Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon!!!!!!!!}

---

Satin Flowers Theories That DO NOT Spark Joy:

1. He is one of Littlefinger's MANY spies!!!!

WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT?!?!?! I mean, if it somehow ties into Littlefinger's whole climb up the Ladder plan, sure. But other than that, he would just wasting his time, money, and a very pretty boy that can make him even richer.

2. HE IS ONE OF JON SNOW'S KILLERS!!!!

No matter Satin's possible station in the world, he literally has NOTHING to gain from killing Jon!!!! Jon comforted him when he was scared, stayed by his side while fighting, elevated his status {which includes living with Jon in his chambers instead of barracks full of men that hate him}, verbally tore apart all who talked shit about him, etc!!!!

The only thing Satin gains from killing one of his very few supporters, would be getting hurt and killed by enemies. Saying that Satin Flowers is one of the men that killed Jon Snow is about as believable as Sansa Stark causing the Doom Of Valyria {which happened centuries before she was born, but knowing Sansa antis, I'm sure they've found a way to blame her for that, too 🙄🙄💀💀}.

---

Or, Satin Flowers could be just as GRRM introduced him as: A former sex worker turned into a man of the Night’s Watch, nothing more, nothing less. But I have a feeling that GRRM has plans for Satin, and I PRAY those don't include hurting or killing him right after the mutiny, or him being a traitor. Either of those would kill Jon....again....💀💀💔💔

[alishaaxo]

im sorry but i can never be a lyanna stan guys.

just lemme explain.

obviously this is only if she willingly went w rhaegar

To begin with, the situation in its simplest form is that Rhaegar and Elia are married, amicable yet not in love, and Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna, causing chaos to ensue amongst the realm.

Even if no war occured and everything was fine, how can Lyanna try to justify running away with a married man, especially on the way to her brothers wedding which feels very selfish, even if Brandon didn’t want to marry Cat, like she still ruined their wedding day.

Not to mention, that running with Rhaegar meant that shes inserted herself into his marriage which is Elia’s place. How nonsensical it is to run away with a married man and somehow marry him!

There’s two routes people go to justify it, and I’ll explain why I think they suck:

1) E-R-L is a polygamous marriage: This is not appeasable to the realm at all! Nobody will accept that. The only reason Aegon+Rhaenys+Visenya were accepted was because they were conquering Westeros, and like you can’t say shit about the guys conquering you!! Also the Targs were on thin ice then, and Maegor also tried, and look what happened afterwards!

2) E-R was annulled and R-L are married: I don’t think this is reasonable at all. Considering that Rhaegar is only HEIR, just like Daemon, for example. Both wanted annulments and both need the permission from the King and/or High Septon, but also considering how the likes of Aegon IV couldn’t annul his own marriage, do you really think a measly heir could?! At least in Daemon’s situation, he had no children, but as Aegon IV and Rhaegar both had kids (Elia giving birth twice in 3 years) theres no grounds for annulment, and it would disinherit his children potentially anyway, or even start a second Dance. As soon as you have a second wife, whether polygamous, annulled or dead first wife, war will be almost inevitable between the potential heirs.

Also Ik its not possible.. but can we stop with the E/R/L shipping in a serious manner (crackship is fine but in canon is 😐)

Like genuinely thinking mid-20s Elia would want to romance a 14 year old girl, would be fine with her husband romancing said 14 year old, or join in together, is so crazy to me. Like, yes Rhaegar is very much in the pedo-realm but why would Elia also follow suit??!

And like not to be a huge Robert Baratheon stan here (i hate GOT era him) but you can’t deny that it is the rebellion+it’s repercussions on his life, that change him so heavily into this twisted abusive, pedo man. He was not a great guy pre-rebellion, he slept around, was loud and rowdy, but I feel like you can’t really say that Lyanna somehow predicted that he would be this abusive evil man, tbh it seems like she just disliked his promiscuity which is valid, but in doing the same to Elia, her point gets invalidated in my eyes.

Also next point is the age-situation.

Now i know that obviously in a real life situation, a 14 year old girl is at no blame for the groomer actions of the adult…. however just look at how GRRM perceives this. like not as an “oh medieval girls married at 14, its fine” because they were still mentally children… but i mean how GRRM perceives relationships akin to R-L and characters by Lyannas age in ASOIAF-verse.

Ok so GRRM thinks R-L is romantic, which means that the groomer undertones aren’t necessarily meant to be there, and its meant to be more of a Romeo-Juliet situation (which heavily fucked over Romeos girl Rosaline ie Elia). He also believes Dany-Drogo and San-San is healthy, so I don’t think age heavily affects characters romantic feeling and actions much then.

Then if we see character Lyanna’s age, they’re treated as adults (yes some do have child impulses but overall adults). You have Robb acting impulsively like a kid, but ultimately being treated as an adult and being killed. I feel like even though they have kid impulses, they’re meant to get adult consequences for their actions.

Also ages as a whole is fucked up in ASOIAF in comparison to real world, like you have baby Rickon Stark going feral in Skagos, you have 3 year old Joffrey Velaryon/Strong squaring up to Aemond, and you even have 11 year old Benjicott Blackwood being an absolute beast of a warrior when in the real-world, he’d be just a kid, useless in defence.

[katshuya]

No matter what George does. No matter if he twisted it into "Elia was ok and never felt humiliated nor used, and the Martells didn't mind what Rhaegar did" or if George decided never to talk about Elia. R x L will always be disgusting and not a tragic love story.

Any sane human being can see that.

Even in a creepy scenario where she was ok with it OR one where she didn't love Rhaegar, he will always be to blame, and he still used her.

That's why the R x L stans always try to either ignore her existence or reduce it into nothing and her into some kind of supernatural alien human that is ok with everything dirty done to her.

Because they know their oh so tragic, self insert true love story will always seem disgusting because of Elia's existence in the story.

No amount of excuses or fanarts will ever change this truth. No matter which characters George will make accepting and supporting of them (Ned, Arthur, Oberyn, Doran, Ashara, Lewyn and even Elia herself....ect). Why? Because it's unrealistic.

Even if R and L's were running away from Aerys, then suddenly *accidentally* saw a prophecy or fell in love.

OR Even if George made it that Rhaegar wouldn't have left her if she had been able to give him another child. It doesn't change that he abandoned her and their children in the worst way possible with no protection against Aerys and his loyal kingsguard. And even then, it's hard to believe she'd accept just because he told her : Hey, I see in my dreams that I have to have 3 children or we all die. Like, what is this? She almost died for that, no thanks to you and your one after another impregnation.

It's disgusting and not well-written at all.

That's just the plain truth.

That's why a huge part of the fandom dislikes it. Not because they "didn't read the books" or "they lack critical thinking".

It's actually because they know how to think instead of inserting themselves as not like other girls girl and shipping themselves with terrible husband and father, charismatic depressed prince charming.

Poor Rhaegar had a sense of doom following him and knew he'd die soon so Elia let him be? That's very idiotic.

No. Elia being fine with annulment or polygamy isn't normal unless she is forced to. And you know it.

[stasiereads]

rhaegar targaryen k*lled his whole family. I said what I said.

this is one of the most unlikeable male targaryens, I never understood why so many people obsess over him and defend him. this guy is a cheater and would be a shitty king (was a shitty prince, husband and father after all).

[swee26oy]

I was reading fanfic about Elia Martell, Robert's Rebellion and all that. And I discovered something really funny. lyanna stans are so desperate that they try to steal everything elia has. Her title as a princess she was born with, her kindness, her love for children and the thing that made me laugh so hard even her friendships with the characters they tie it all to lyanna they are so obsessed that they make aegon and rhaenys love lyanna and hate their real mother. Also elia is like a whore in these stories. The most embarrassing thing is the authors who claim to love elia but are willing to have rhaegar be in a relationship with every female in asoiaf except elia and this follows them stealing everything about elia and putting her in that character or making their own character based on elia as well.

All of this makes me think how perfect Elia is.

[whateverthought]

It's tragic love. You just don't WANT not CAN'T like Rhaegar x Lyanna. You think life is white and black and that as long as Elia is not loved by Rhaegar you should find fault in their love.

Whats tragic about it? What did Rhaegar see in this little girl? The only nice thing he ever does for her is naming her "Love and Beauty" at a tourney. Which, depending on Lyanna's situation could have actually hurt her? If Robert Baratheon had been a jealous, abusive man, seeing another man show interest in her could have caused her problems. Hell, if her father was an abusive man, he could have called her a whore and punished her for just the Thought that she was with the Prince, who she never met.

Other than that? What else is there? Stealing her away in the night? Something that started a War and put her siblings in harm's way? He took her from her Horrible Betrothement and then what? Put her in a tower?

We do know Rhaegar was obsessed with his Family History and the Prophecy especially. We do know Elia couldn't give him anymore children, just one short. We do know he knew about the Ice and Fire part and its 'importance'. We also know Lyanna hated that Robert, her fiance/betrothed, slept around even though they were 'together'. And we know Lyanna had a strong moral compass, or belief in Right and Wrong.

Saying you KNOW what I'm feeling is crazy. It's not my Black and White View that's causing me problems, its the established characterization that I'm hung up on.

I don't care if Rhaegar Loved Elia, personally I don't have enough on these characters to care.

[swordsandarms]

Saw this post by @queenaryastark and just wanted to add my two cents in spite of the problem always having been that people just want things to be what works better for them and "to make sense" in a simplified way and don't want to hear otherwise-

There are a very few things known about Elia Martell - that the author finds relevant enough to even share with us about a small background character - and yet one of those few things is that she had a good relationship with her arranged husband (political, non-romantic and all, "complex", but he took the time to outline that it was not one of those cases when these things have negative connotations). The only other relationship I can think of that he finds relevant enough to be known the quality of is that with her brothers - because it is a key element to the Dornish plot, no less. And he places her dynamic with Rhaegar beside it!

# No, we do not know that she was best friends with Ashara and depended on her and that she would have done anything out of love and how she was angry because her life was actually awful because of her husband! (she's merely one of a dozen ladies in waiting - a political position meant to benefit one's noble family - who just happens to be the only named one, and that for other plot reasons than Elia)

# No, we do not know that Rhaella loved her dearly and hated her son and thought he was so awful and they both see him as awful and (a silly puerile little fic that made me laugh once) wanted to make her "Crown Princess" ...instead .... somehow! We don't even know if they had a relationship. They didn't live in the same city, and Rhaella's day to day life is heavily monitored and controlled at ths point in her life. It's questionable whether they could even be in any amount in eachother's confidence, hence, even through letters, even if you take out the distance.

ETC.

We don't even know what kind of relationship she had with her own mother. People just want it to be good. They don't want details like putting a daughter with frail health in a very dangerous situation no matter how "responsible" Rhaegar turned out to be for ambition and spite against a political adversary to speak of anything negative. And I'm not saying it is a must for it to have been negative. What I am trying to get to is people are trying to write any other relationships of hers we know nothing about, or might not exist, or might actually have negative correlations from as much as we know as definitely deep and good and rewrite the only other relationship we are given other than her brothers that we are actually told what it was, and make it bad and weak instead. We don't know her dynamic with her own mother to be good, yet we know it is with Rhaegar.

It is a noted fact in the story, and the fact that the author cares little or not at all about others on the other hand but this was noteworthy to write makes it significant, too. And it isn't even a matter of being isolated and lonely and making do because she has no one else to have a pleasant relationship with. She is surrounded by men and women alike, Dornish no less, loyal to her, and they also get along with Rhaegar.

And if we are to take most of Dany's vision of them as real (as there are details like him seeming to talk to her at the end that may be skewy) then they are on good terms until nearly the end. If fanon that claims she hated him/thought herself as slighted and humiliated after the flower crown were true, then this would actually do characterise her as a simpleton/'doormat' instead, which there being an understanding behind his action would not and it doesn't seem to me that the author wants Elia a simpleton.

Yeah, yeah, consequences of his actions ultimately hurt her, though. And so people walk backwards then on the apparent idea that if someone's actions hurt you in any circumstances, then it can only be willful, and someone doing something that ends up hurting someone can only be an 'abuser' and such. All over the place, there are dramatic fanon theories about these two to rewrite what is canon of their dynamic as 'abuser' and 'victim', so that it would simplify the concept of his actions indirectly hurting her.

Canon doesn't support that. Canon gives the fact that he removes his arranged wife from the capital where there is the danger of his father, although that means the removal from the centre of political power, during a very tense political dynamic (literally described as 'like before the Dance'!). Canon says that when Aerys' cruel actions start a Rebellion, and he removes Elia and her children from the relative safety of Dragonstone (with authority no one can undo), Rhaegar comes forth to lead Aerys' armies. And fanon (against previous signs) paints it as him being a one-dimensional evil creature (from the author praised to write things complex) who cares not about fighting Lyanna's family or his lawful spouse and children being in danger near that man... rather than the fact that he is known as looking out for Elia's safety from his father, told to have had his last straw after said father rejects his daughter that he seems to have inspired love and trust in - hence the likelihood of him being caught in between and having no more choice than Dorne. Less, because he also has to go against the family of the girl the author says he's 'lovestruck' about also, because Aerys is dangling Elia and the children, that the author cared to give hints he cares about. Or the fact that he hints of having reached THE breaking point about his father as a follow-up fact at this point through Jaime's memory.

"Are you saying she was complicit in endangering herself? On purpose?"

It is very exhausting to hear such a train of thought from people who supposedly read books, and understand how conflict works, and that being a 'realistic story' with complex characters it means they don't know/understand everything and things are out of their control and happen unexpectedly.

That's how you get ridiculous theories such as "Rhaegar then planned it all to go exactly how it went and knew each thing that would happen and it was for some magical mass sacrifice or whatever!!" Because this is how things work. People make plans and it happens exactly as they expect, bullet points and all. And you'd have millions claiming that's a good writer who does well foreshadowed 'shocks' that the character would not know about and needs to be re-read to fully comprehend and appreciate.

Yeah, it doesn't mean that the plans and goals they may have had would be summarised as 'choosing Rhaegar mistresses from a catalogue' the way I saw it put somewhere. Yeah, that is dumb. But if we don't have the information on characters' train of thoughts from a point in time we don't fully understand, it doesn't mean it is fine to change base facts (the relationship of the two) to make a simple version that explains it away.

"Are you saying she is dumb to think this or that would work certain ways, whatever they thought they were doing/going towards for whatever reasons?"

Again, are we even reading books here? Have we not seen smart characters (sometimes older than these 2) making certain sound sounding choices with certain predictions at the time, and in the end none working out and everything falling apart? Don't we applaud it as good writing? Isn't Varys for example cathegorised as one of the BIG manipulators of history and planner, yet what we hear from people working for Young Griff is the frustration of plans changing all the time because what he predicts/wants/plans doesn't work as intended multiple times?

And since we're on the topic and fanon has mythologised characters like her into ridiculous heights, let's stop for a second to think who Elia Martell would be as a (actually honest) baseline. Young, inexperienced, sheltered by privilege as anyone of her rank and more so for her own health (according to her brother), very optimistic sounding, etc. Yes, most likely intelligent (described as witty), but it doesn't change the implications of the previous qualities. Rhaegar is also most of that (at least idealistic if not optimistic) - though I would say he would at least have the perspective of "harsh realities" due to his family situation, while hers was a loving one as far as we're concerned. So, yes, she could have even made/agreed with "naive plans" as well as him, and they could even have been intelligent about it too, as they both seemed to have been, but it being beyond the point because the world works chaotically and there's no smart enough character that never had plans go wrong ever in ASOIAF.

Another thing that I mentioned but want to emphasise again, though it is hard to believe that a fandom that wouldn't give a break even to characters 16 and younger for 'miscalculations' and not having it all figured out and not doing everything perfectly is... they are both young, too! I don't know what's the overall age demoraphic in this fandom, but it always baffles me that this is not addressed - early 20s is clueless, young, and inexperienced. If one is past it they should know it. There are way too many young characters I guess to conceptualise that (but, again, it is not like this fandom give the VERY young characters a break also so I don't know), but it is very odd when these two are seen as 'very adult' who should have known better (Rhaegar) or knew 100% everything like some 'hit by godly visions' Cassandra (Elia), especially, again, when you account for both being inexperienced and privileged. The 16 and lower characters we know would rank above them both (especially sheltered Elia!) simply by actually being forced into learning experiences.

All in all, whatever the details are or how things can be explained from that point on, people have to accept the fact that the writing makes it more understandable that they would have been 'in cahoots' rather than a cartoonish evil being and a young woman without agency whatsover that is cutie pieing with the man who she is also angry at for doing some great misdeed against her.

Would she think otherwise by the end, when all fell apart? Would there be targeted hate and blame? We can theorise either way, but I am thinking how Lyanna is theorised as such in spite of the author writing roses in her hand when she dies in the same wavelength as writing her brother's hand holding hers - just like we only know of noteworthy positive relationships in Elia's life being a brother and Rhaegar, to the writer.

Sorry, but we're reading a story, and if you don't like what the author writes and implies it's fine. But at the same time you are wrong by default in 'predictions' as to what he would write next instead.

"You are victim blaming if Elia thought or did anything ever than being a silent perfect victim who just had things happening to her while having the foresight of a God and the wisdom of a 100 years old and if it were up to this sheltered inexperienced early 20s woman she would have REAISTICALLY Mary Sued her way through it and everyone would agree and kiss her feet. REALISTICALLY!!!"

No, you are. This fandom is famous for victim blaming (young) female characters most of all who have no control over circumstances around them, not being able to predict the future, not having experience, or just mean well and think better of the world, as long as they are anything but 'perfect victims' whose whole act is expcted to be being pitiful stoned mummies that things happen to, and are held up to unfair standards by the heavy in expectations pedestal that's supposed to be a compliment.

[cowboysanddragons23]

Every FanFiction about Lyanna and Rhaegar is an exact copypaste of the same concepts:

-Elia is ok with Rhaegar going with Lyanna and agrees with Lyanna being taken as a second wife.

-Lack of change in the political landscape.

-Rhaenys and Daenerys are reduced to be concubines of Jon.

-Rhaegar and Lyanna are universally adored as King and Queen.

-Aegon and Rhaenys prefer Lyanna over Elia.

-Rhaegar and Lyanna are in love (note that the in love is used loosely).

-Aegon is conveniently impotent or dead so Jon can take the Throne.

[dalekofchaos]

Targaryen restoration au

Imagine if the following happened.

Rhaella lived through childbirth and got to take care of Dany and Viserys

Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were able to escape to Dorne before the sacking of King's Landing

Arthur Dayne took a pregnant Lyanna to Starfall to find proper care to deliver Jon. But let's say in this au Rhaegar told Arthur the Prince that was promised must be named Daeron III

Jon Connington is called and returns to serve his lord's children

At some point they all link up and begin to plot to restore House Targaryen and take what is rightfully theirs. With Fire & Blood

With Rhaella, Ser Willem, Elia and Arthur around. Viserys never descends into madness and becomes more well adjusted.

Lyanna survived childbirth. Lyanna could not return home. She's too ashamed after her actions led to the deaths of Rickard and Brandon and she knows if she returns with her son, Robert would kill them. Arthur and Lyanna raised Daeron together. One thing led to another and they fell in love.

With outside forces preventing the crown from finding them(Doran, Varys and Illyrio) the Targaryens are never found.

Dany has a happy childhood and while they move every often, she has happy memories with her mother, brother and cousins.

With Rhaella, Doran, Oberyn Arthur and Jon Connington around, Aegon, Rhaenys, Viserys and Daenerys all grow up well versed into politics. Arthur and Oberyn properly turns Aegon, Daeron, Rhaenys, Dany and Viserys into warriors.

Because of Arthur's presence, he would not allow or tolerate Jorah Mormont.

With the vast wealth of Illyrio and Varys influence, an army of sell swords are at their disposal. They have the Golden Company, Windblown, Second Sons, Unsullied, and Storm Crows

With an alliance with Dorne, Aegon is betrothed to Arianne, House Tyrell are known Targaryen loyalists. Daeron is betrothed to Margaery and Daenerys is betrothed to Willas, The Targaryens could reach out to the Greyjoys and promise revenge and plunder. Viserys is betrothed to Asha.

I don't know if the dragons would factor into this au. Maybe there is a ritual, magic via the red priests/priestesses or something they found that could hatch the dragon eggs. If so the dragons are given to Rhaegar's children because prophecy. Aegon's Dragon will be named Visenya(Drogon) Rhaenys' dragon will be named Meria(Rhaegal) and Daeron's will be named Ghost(Viserion)

The War of the Five Kings turns into the War of Kings & Dragons.

Renly runs back to Stannis after he finds out the Tyrell's true allegiances. The brothers put behind their grievances and stand together.

When Cat goes to treat with Renly, she is surprised that Stannis and Renly stand together. They offer Robb a choice, join us. The Lannisters must be dealt with and then deal with the invading Targaryens.

Battle of the Blackwater ends with the Stark-Baratheon alliance victorious. Robb rescues Sansa and Joffrey is executed. Cersei is executed and Tommen is fostered at Casterly Rock by Tyrion. Tywin falls in battle.

Littlefinger is executed and Varys escapes in time to meet with the Targaryens.

The Targaryens arrive. They are met with Dorne, the Ironborn and the Reach.

All out war.

The Targaryens obviously win. But they are smart. They give their enemies the chance to bend the knee.

Then the Targaryens, Starks, and Baratheons unite their forces and marches North. to face their true enemy.

Aegon VI's small council

Hand of the King:Jon Connington

Grand Maester:Marwyn

Master of Whispers:Varys

Master of Laws:Oberyn Martell

Master of Ships:Mace Tyrell

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard:Arthur Dayne

Meanwhile I can see Euron return and hire a Faceless man to kill Willas Tyrell. Euron tries weasels his way into Dany's good graces. There are two ways we can play this. Dany sicks the Kingsguard to kill him or he slowly begins to corrupt her. Blame Viserys and cause Targaryen infighting. And after Viserys is out of the picture. Euron helps Dany take the throne and cement the Targaryens and the Greyjoys alliance through marriage, let the Long Night kill her cousins and they can rule the Iron Throne together and he has the means to bind the dragons to her will.

In the scenario where Dany stays loyal to her family. Euron is captured and is awaiting his execution. With no dragons to burn him. Dany has him executed by Wildfire. "Dracarys"

Ending 1:Rhaegar's prophecy is true and his children save the realm from the Long Night

Ending 2:Aegon, Rhaenys and Daeron sacrifice themselves to end The Others, while Dany brings peace to the realm

Ending 3:The unholy union of Euron and Dany plunges the world into darkness.

[davinamikaelsonalwaysandforever]

Rhaegar's rubies = Rhaegar’s blood.

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.