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givehimthemedicine · 17 days ago

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time for my big lumax rantpost. I used to be way more of a shipper but upon reexamining some of my GA-era assumptions, I'm here to tell you why it sucks, and why I don't look forward to lumax endgame if it's the same lumax we've been getting.

lumax has fantastic potential, but needs lots of work to actually become the ship most of the fandom thinks it is.

I get the sense most on here consider lumax ST's darling perfect ship which is sullied by weak and/or racist writing. while I wouldn't argue at all that the writing does right by Lucas, I do think it's important to recognize lumax as an intentionally-written badly flawed relationship, NOT a poorly-written perfect relationship. (the writing for 5 has a lot to prove so we'll see)

lumax is obviously happening. no ending to Lucas's story makes sense other than him getting the girl. however, I don't like that from either character's standpoint.

from hers - Max is not a prize. and from his - Max is no prize.

Max is a pretty shitty girlfriend.

we've never seen her show Lucas any interest in learning anything about him. I can't remember a time she's complimented him, said anything nice about him, or done anything purely for his benefit. virtually all of their serious conversations have been about her, and the scant few that are sort of about him are inevitably just a lead-in to him offering support to her.

Lucas and Max's relationship - pre, during, and post dating - is 100% about what he can do for her. he's the one making 100% of the effort.

it seems like most of their interactions are him walking on eggshells trying to placate, reassure, or convince her, all for the reward of.... what. being allowed to continue existing near her? like yeah, she's a cool girl, but. that can't be it.

what good is getting the girl if the girl doesn't really offer anything?

. . .

through the seasons, semiquickly:

season 2

Lucas and Dustin both like Max, so they invite her trick or treating, offering to protect her from bullies and show her where the good candy is. in other words, the first Max / Lucas interaction is him offering something to benefit her. Max returns no appreciation or even response to the invite, yet still shows up to reap the benefits.

that pretty much sets the tone.

Max wants to be included, but that's a sensitive subject, so she puts on aloof airs to protect herself. it's an act, but nonetheless it's all Lucas receives.

the facade slips on multiple occasions though; Lucas is permitted to see her vulnerability, and we can see she's actually more desperate to make the connection than he is.

Dustin seeks Steve's manipulation tactics to use on Max, but Lucas wins her over by treating her like an equal and offering her genuine friendship.

he risks both his place in the party and his safety/life to include her, gives his undivided attention when she talks to him, asks questions that show his interest and concern, he reassures, uplifts and compliments her, and physically protects her.

in return, Max. uhh. well she does apologize for being a jerk, although she doesn't exactly stop, lmao. this is one of only two moments I can think of when Max reveals any regard for what Lucas thinks of her.

lumax is off-balance before it even starts, although s2 is when I think that dynamic is most permissible. since Max is a newcomer, Lucas has the advantage in many respects, and it makes sense for him to be the one extending a hand to her.

when Billy attacks Lucas for hanging out with Max, he could be gravely hurt if not for Steve taking the beating instead. Max joins in the momentary group hug but never says a word about this. (I suspect the writers mean for Max's bus apology to have proactively served as a veiled "sorry my stepbro is racist" but more felt needed in that moment.)

then they go to the dance and she kisses him and it's cute and everything is happy for ten whole seconds.

between 2 and 3

even though the summer of '85 is "the good days," this relationship is already careening downhill.

we learn that Max has dumped Lucas five times - such a regular occurrence that he takes it in stride and is well practiced at winning her back as a result.

unfortunately it's Lucas taking to heart the "happy wife happy life" policy from his dad that's set up lumax as something that seems to serve only Max. her awareness of the policy means she holds all the cards.

season 3

Max has secured her place in the party and the relationship, and now it's time for her to bring something to the table, but I honestly can't name one thing. it's still Lucas bending over backwards and Max sometimes being a bit of a jerk. (another act. we'll come back to this)

from the start of 3 we see an excessively secure Max and an obsequious Lucas. she doesn't show him any of the vulnerability that made her endearing in 2. they share fun moments, but we can infer that she doesn't treat him very well in ways that matter.

at one point she even plays mad just to watch him panic. you get the feeling this boy can never feel secure in his relationship. yeah she's just teasing, but do you think Lucas is allowed to tease too?

when El comes to Max for advice, she tells her that "boyfriends lie all the time" and this is before we see Lucas lie to her.

when Mike comes to Lucas for advice, he confidently schools him on how to get back in El's good graces by buying her a present - making clear he's been following his dad's advice all summer long and it's been working:

L: Dad? When Mom's mad at you, how do you make her not mad? C: First, I apologize. Then, I get your mother whatever she wants. L: Even when she's wrong? C: She's never wrong, son.

the mall confrontation is the first time we see Lucas really lie to Max, but even then, the girls don't actually have proof Nana isn't sick.

it's telling, actually, that Lucas's loyalty goes to Mike instead of Max in this moment. in s2 it was the other way around (Lucas pissed off the whole party by including her in the group and telling her the truth - a technically banishable offense). but now he's back to his s1 bros before hoes policy, and not only backs up but expands on Mike's lie. after dating almost a year, his loyalty to Max should be even stronger, but here we see the opposite. if Max had been at least as good a friend to him as Mike, I'm inclined to think he would at least have tried to be noncommittal here.

Max is so confident Lucas will have nothing on his mind but winning her back, as always - meanwhile who we actually see Lucas apologizing to is Will.

she may have had Lucas wrapped around her little finger all summer, but we're seeing that start to uncoil. if Lucas apologizes, it's offscreen.

when Billy tries to break out of the sauna to kill Max, Lucas slingshots him and body shields Max during the fight. next thing you know, Max is back to being cliquey with El in the bathroom (making fun of Mike even though he was the only one who did anything to save El's life?? girl you're being shitty to boyfriends that aren't even yours)

they seem to be a couple again by the end of 3, but the relationship is weakened...

between 3 and 4

..which sets the scene for how the two apparently drift when Max ends it once again. she's not playing this time - she uses the term "break up" instead of "dump" and Lucas has accepted that it's over.

depression makes it hard for Max to connect with him, but the way she treated him in 3 has likely also eaten away at his insistence on prioritizing her. if you push someone away over and over you can't be too surprised if they stay further away each time.

so Max withdraws socially and Lucas apparently doesn't go to his usual lengths to pursue her.

he's still making effort though! the "stalking" comment makes it clear he's been trying to approach her. we know he's been inviting her to his basketball games. him already knowing her favorite song as of 4x4 is more evidence of him taking an interest in her between seasons.

he clearly still cares a lot about Max, but good for him for pursuing his own hobbies and friendships as well.

season 4

Lucas finally asks Max to do something to support him for once (come to his game), but she shuts it down hard.

we know Max still cares about him, but that's just it - WE know. he doesn't. to his face, it's bristling rejection even while he literally begs for the chance to support her.

saving Max's life is a group effort, but Lucas knowing her favorite song is the key that saves her life, and it's only after that that she's friendly towards him again.

the only time I can recall Max expressing any concern for Lucas's wellbeing is when she asks if he's okay in 4x6 - and he only gets a few sentences to process Patrick's death before it's time for him to turn it into an apology to her. sigh.

Lucas is the only one of Max's friends to voice any objection to her suicide mission of a Vecna plan, and pitches for them to gamble a stranger's life instead. he once again risks his life to hang out in the Creel house with Max, personally taking on the huge responsibility of making sure she doesn't die.

Vol 2 Max finally shows Lucas some long-awaited appreciation ("you might have been there" and "I'm glad you're here") which is very nice to see.

I'm conflicted about the movie invite scene, but we'll talk about that later. textually: he asks her out, she accepts, it's totes adorbs.

unfortunately, Max being tranced out by the time Jason walks in means it's time for Lucas once again to get attacked by an older, stronger guy who's wrongly convinced he's a danger to her. (again not her fault, but kinda because of her)

everything goes sideways, Max gets Vecna'd, and Lucas holds her while she dies. we end on a bruised Lucas sitting loyally at Max's bedside, reading to her just in case she can hear it inside her coma.

Lucas hasn't been perfect but he has spent yet another season physically protecting and emotionally supporting Max at great personal expense, and with little appreciation and no support in return.

. . .

the movie doodle didn't fix lumax

Max has had an epiphany, but a change of behavior has scarcely begun. being nice isn't the same as making amends. they've resolved zero of the old issues, plus 4 (even if the plan had worked) has heaped a ton of new shit on both of them.

she's still a grieving, neglected, depressed and passively suicidal child of a triply-broken home. dating doesn't fix that. they already broke up once under the same conditions.

plus Max has new catastrophic emotional traumas, some of which which explicitly exacerbate those very issues. she has catastrophic injuries and disability to cope with (and this is a girl who withdraws under stress normally). with a shred of realism, she's waking up in less a mood for dating than ever.

Lucas has also taken on new traumas, between the basketball team stuff, getting beaten up and almost shot/strangled, and watching Max get Vecna'd and die. he already has a history of guilt about not being there for her enough, so he's going to have a lot more about failing her in that moment (definitely not his fault but he'll still feel bad) and will likely be even more focused on her.

to me, this all sounds like a recipe for the same old dynamic except worse than ever. if they get sleeping beauty'd directly back into lumax, it'll be a disservice to both characters.

. . .

now let's talk about why Max treats Lucas the way she does 🔬

she's not a conniving bitch, she's just a scared kid from a toxic home. that doesn't excuse her behavior but it does make it understandable.

Max CAN be a great friend. she's just not to Lucas.

Max absolutely showers El with the good qualities she'll barely show Lucas. in fact I could loosely say Max is to El what Lucas is to Max.

Max is suspicious and disparaging towards Lucas, even while trusting that he can be counted upon to grovel. meanwhile El never apologizes for intentionally hurting Max both physically and emotionally, yet the moment El acknowledges her (only because she wants help), Max is instantly forgiving, kind, gentle, caring, generous and supportive towards her.

she throws her loyalty behind a friend of 1 afternoon over her boyfriend of a year who's been the only person in Hawkins to show her any true kindness and emotional connection.

if Max was half the friend to Lucas that she is to El, she'd be a decent girlfriend. why isn't she?

we can name a few reasons why Max IS so nice to El, but why she ISN'T to Lucas is a separate question. kindness isn't zero-sum.

she told us why. boyfriends lie.

and it's ANY boyfriend, not just hers. Nana's sick? more like Mike's a lying piece of shit! Suzie from camp? fake! Dustin's obviously lying! the only one of the boys Max has never accused of lying is Will - the only one who's been single the whole time.

just. the state of being a boyfriend (or even just liking a girl is close enough), makes any boy automatically a liar.

Max believes "friend" and "boyfriend" are mutually exclusive

"Friends don't lie!" "Yeah, well, boyfriends lie all the time." <- it's all right there.

back in 2 when Lucas was her friend, she was more open and trusting. she gave him the benefit of the doubt that monsters were real and he knew a girl with magic powers. starting to date flipped the switch, and now she doesn't trust him about mundane stuff.

now they're not friends, they're boyfriend/girlfriend, and she expects to be treated in a whole different way, including all the baggage that comes with romantic relationships in her mind.

what baggage?

Max's childhood is full of examples of awful, manipulative men and abusive, broken relationships.

her dad: I'd only be speculating about why her parents' marriage failed, but in 2 Max misses California because her dad is still there, then by 4 acts like it's doubtful he can even be tracked down for delivery of what's basically her suicide letter. it's clear she desired a relationship with her dad but was abandoned. Neil: abusive asshole who rules the household with an iron fist. I'd be shocked if he hasn't abused Susan, and see little reason he wouldn't do it in front of Max (after all, we see him verbally and physically abuse his first wife in front of his son, in a bad fight over suspected lies/infidelity). in his grief over Billy, Neil and Susan have "bad fights" and he leaves the family. he's not missed, but it's still a second abandonment by a father figure. Billy: Max's peer example of guys in relationships: a sleazy, two-faced asshole who treats girls like trash and completely changes his persona to manipulate them for sex or whatever else he wants (Max appears to be all too aware of his sex life and is disgusted). abandonment issues with him too: a good relationship with a big brother would've meant the world to her, but he rejected and probably abused her for years; her letter at his grave reads "ever since you left" - same word she used for Neil.

Max desperately hopes Lucas is an exception to the rule, but these are the behaviors she would naturally fear from any guy she dates.

Max is especially terrified of being abandoned (and that she deserves it)

to be abandoned over and over can naturally leave a kid wondering if it's their fault, if this is the treatment they deserve.

Lucas is overall quite honest, and there's not an abusive bone in his body. the most realistic one of Max's fears to apply to him is that someday he'll leave her, too.

and that's the worst fear Vecna chooses to voice in Lucas's form: realizing he's been wrong about her, that she's fundamentally bad and he's glad she's going to be killed. a gutting abandonment from the guy she most wants to trust.

Vecna-Susan also tells Max that she deserves what's going to happen to her, that she's "broken everything" and that her letters can't make things right. because he's in full Vecna mode when he says it, I just took those as very general condemnations at first. but they hurt even worse when I remember they're still coming from "Susan" - revealing that Max feels she has broken her family.

she wanted Billy to die, and she figures Neil left because Billy died, so that's two of the abandonments being "her fault". if that's true, Max would also feel responsible for destroying her mom's life - having cost her her marriage, home, and financial security.

in her addictions Susans has, in an emotional sense, abandoned Max just like all her other family members - and Max fears she deserves it. how desperate she was for this hug... :(

anyway, back to lumax: let's reexamine those s3 dumpings

what exactly did Lucas even do? we never find out.

on first watch, I took "boyfriends lie" at face value and assumed Lucas got caught fibbing. but that doesn't fit so well.

he's maybe the party member most invested in "friends don't lie". honesty to his friends is a pillar of his character. again, he caused friction in 2 because he so strongly prioritized honesty to Max. to assume based on one line from an unreliable narrator that he randomly became a huge liar over the summer is unfair.

via their counseling of Mike and El, Lucas and Max tell us what's been going on with lumax

Max tells El:

He'll come crawling back to you in no time, begging for forgiveness. I guarantee him and Lucas are totally wallowing in self-pity and misery right now like "ohh, I hope they take us back!"

I think we all clocked that one: Max thinks that because El followed her technique, Mike will come crawling back - because Lucas has come crawling back to her several times now.

but I haven't seen much discussion about how the spying scene (which "he'll come crawling back" is paired with) shows Lucas assuring Mike that he's been dumped for an unfair and illogical reason because that's what Max has done to him several times now.

M: I just don't understand what I did to deserve this. L: Nothing. Nothing. That's my whole point. You are the victim here. Stop asking rational questions. M: I know, I know, you're right. Because women act on emotion and not logic. L: Precisely. It's a totally different species.

Max is pissed. but has she been irrational, acting on emotion and not logic, and dumping him for no apparent reason all summer? signs point to yes.

and I understand Lucas saying this. it's not pure misogyny out of nowhere; he's been told that his mother expects gifts and apologies even when wrong, Max acts that way too, and now so apparently does El. all of his examples concur that this is just how women in relationships are. (Charles Sinclair how many relationships will your advice destroy lmao)

both Max and Lucas are bringing preconceptions from home.

Max acts this way on purpose

I don't think she's dumped him over truly nothing (although that's how it looks to him). I'm thinking she blows real, minor missteps out of proportion.

any time Lucas does something slightly insensitive, it looks like the first red flag to her, and instead of communicating in a constructive way, she just throws up this "boys aint shit" force field and dumps him. of course she doesn't truly want to be rid of him, she's just sorta snapping the leash.

I think Max knows what she's doing. I think she wants to keep Lucas always on his back foot, because the relationship isn't as scary if she feels like she holds all the power.

she's always trying to cover up fear/sorrow with anger, because anger gives an illusion of control. and she's been conscious of that anger, and the fact that it's unfair to Lucas, since the beginning - that's what she apologized for on the bus. "I guess I'm angry too, and I'm sorry."

she was mature enough at 13 to see the error in her behavior, but still not mature enough by 15 to fix it. every season has just been a slightly different flavor of "leave before you get left".

so, that's my take on Max's relationship behavior. but again, explanations aren't excuses. Lucas deserves to be treated well, and that's not happening.

what needs to happen?

simply maturing more will help them both a lot. being 15 is a terrible condition in of itself.

I don't see Lucas dumping Max's ass, but she should take her own advice before the relationship continues: explain herself and fix the garbage parts of her behavior.

before Max can be the girlfriend Lucas deserves, she needs a substantial period of physical and emotional healing.

she needs renewed connections with her friends and family, and a lot of general growth in the area of communication and processing her feelings.

in regards to Lucas, she needs to work on her trust issues, and learn to extend him the treatment warranted by his behavior, not the behavior she fears from others. she needs to learn that "friend" and "girlfriend" aren't mutually exclusive, that real friendship is the key to their relationship, and is a two-way street.

any Billy racism/assault acknowledgement would be better years late than never, especially if grieving Billy continues to be a focus in front of Lucas.

Lucas could also use a little work

the relentless positivity doesn't serve Max well. often it turns out to be empty reassurances which make her feel let down (so, a soft version of the lies she fears). she let him know in 4x4 that this hurts her, but he kept doing it for the rest of the season.

but the big one is that "happy wife happy life" doesn't serve him well, and rewarding unfair treatment perpetuates the problem. yes, the ability to compromise, swallow pride, and be the bigger person are healthy parts of a relationship, as well as the willingness to extend grace to your partner/friend when they're struggling. but it always being on one designated person is a recipe for dissatisfaction and resentment.

Lucas should voice to Max that he, too, has struggles and needs support. I'd like to see him pursue outside interests unapologetically.

no, this isn't an exhaustive list, and I don't expect to see everything fixed at once, or explicitly processed onscreen. but I sure hope we get some evidence of change, and that this has all been part of an arc.

for instance, I'd love for the final lumax reconciliation to be Max asking Lucas to take her back.

I kind of hope not to see them officially together until the very end. in fact I'd so much rather see ST end on a good Max / Lucas friendship with an implied romantic future than jump back to the status quo.

l don't want to see lumax until it's a new lumax, based on real, reciprocal friendship.

#even with the length I rambled this is still oversimplified and left out stuff re: both. but. just to get the conversation started.#you don't want elm*x because lucas. I don't want lumax because lucas. we are not the same #I think people fawn over lumax because they're kind of a milkvan foil and therefore must be perfect?#lowkey seeing lucas date someone else for a bit would straighten 4 max out. girlie careful acting like you're the only fish in the sea <3 #the more I think about it the more I'd like lumax to completely break up and live in different towns and then try again as adults #if the max waking up scene has a kiss in it I'm turning off the tv #lucas sinclair #max mayfield #lumax #givehimthemedicine analysis

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bylertruth3r · 10 months ago

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Mike and Will literally share shoes (and Will might be sleeping in Mike's room) and might not be dating yet when they start dating they're gonna share a whole closet and flirt with each other about how good they look in each other's clothes and just being obnoxious (I will rewatch those scenes so many times) what if they're sharing/swapping shoes because it's the 80's and they're in a really homophobic and conservative town and if they want to give little hints that they're dating and want to openly show it (to at least their friends) they have to be subtle about it? and maybe when they're at home they share clothes without feeling like they have to be careful with how they act around each other and can be openly affectionate (like them in s2)

Thank you for pointing it out @cler1csfink

Confirmation that they're the same shoes and they're both size 10 so yeah they're sharing shoes

and Mike brought these shoes from Hawkins which means the puma suede belong to Will

and in a leaked footage El and Mike broke up/ were already broken up because Mike says "we'll still be friends" and "i wanted to tell you first" which makes me think he might have came out to her (and in that video he was literally wearing his boyfriend's shoes)

video from @nowmemoriees

in s1 during that scene on the train tracks they're friends and in the leaked video they were wearing similar clothes to what they were wearing in that s1 scene where they were friends and could trust each other. i think Mike's gonna come out to her (as gay) there which would explain why El was crying, and why Mike said "i wanted to talk to you first", in s1 Mike said "friends tell the truth" to El and in s5 it's Mike's turn to be honest about himself and maybe he'll tell her he's in love with Will or maybe he'll tell her that he's dating Will

it's the same song that played when Robin came out to Steve, obviously Steve had a crush on Robin but she's a lesbian and can only love him platonically while even though Mike tried to love El romantically he couldn't do it because he's gay and he didn't even bother to close his eyes and kiss her back

plus in a deleted script it says he was mad at himself

and the song playing when Mike and El were kissing in s3 "can't fight this feeling" is about someone being in love with their friend and not knowing what to do about it while already being in a relationship with someone else so it's about Mike being in love with Will and not knowing what to do so he represses it and pushes him away to get over him but then realizing it's not working (which is something he realized at the end of s3) and he's gay and he want on a double date with Will and Lumax after that

and Mike in s4 was trying to be normal and might be into new things (men, because dnd is not new)

and

and in s4 "in the closet at rink o mania" started playing Mike took what Will said "and us?" as romantic and felt the need to clarify that they're friends and Will said they used to be best friends and the camera panned back to Mike plus synth music is his thing since he has "Smalltown Boy" (gay song) as his first song on his spotify playlist, it's a song about a gay man leaving his homophobic town to start a new life and Finn said he wants Mike to leave Hawkins

and he has a "one way" sign pointing to his closet because he's gay and closeted and in his room he has a poster of a shirtless man while the others (Steve, B*lly, and Lucas' "friends") all have women posters because they like women, Mike has all the things he loves the most in his room, a wizard (Will) and buff men <33, and a buff male dragon for some reasons and he has Will's drawings in his room

Mike being obsessed with Superman? and him having a poster of a shirtless man while Steve, B*lly and the tigers all had posters of women in bikinis (because they like girls) Will has a skinny pink panther poster in his room which symbolizes his type in men (Mike) Mike has a shirtless man poster and a buff male dragon poster which symbolizes his type in men (Will) (he's not really buff but he's stronger than Mike) they're each other's type and love each other plus you can see Mike looking at Will's arms during some scenes

also in s3 he was happy about Dustin having a gf and asked him about her but then in s4 when he "finds out" Will has a crush on a "girl" he doesn't ask him about "her" and acts distant (he was pretending he didn't care but he was jealous) and he asked Will about the painting because he was hoping it was for him (it was)

and he realized Will loves him back in the van scene, Mike wants to feel needed and Will needs him, Mike felt lost without Will, Will felt lost without Mike, Will loves him, Mike loves him back, they both think the other doesn't love them, they will prove each other wrong in s5 when Mike finds out Will lied about the painting and loves him back, they love each other the way they want to be loved

and he was so happy to see Will drew a heart on his shield

which is literally an engagement ring, no hands because they'll be more than friends in s5

they've been filming a lot at that farm.. and Ross and his wife said that they enjoyed eyewitness

and Lukas and Mike both have internalized homophobia (Lukas was dating a girl to be normal and then he breaks up with his gf and starts dating Philip,his male best friend)

and if this leak is actually correct there would be another parallel. the episode 2 of s5 is called "the vanishing of ***** Wheeler and if Holly goes missing then Mike and Will are gonna go looking for her in the upside down and maybe they'll kiss there (maybe that's where Mike's gonna get injured)

because in eyewitness Lukas gets injured and his boyfriend stays with him and he kisses his forehead, Lukas' dad sees it (he's ok with it)

and in s2 Mike stayed with Will at the hospital so now it's Will's turn

they've been filming a lot at that farm.. and Ross and his wife said that they enjoyed eyewitness and they filmed at like 3 or 4 different farms (one of them has swings) and they're literally filming at one right now

more s5 leaks and Mike and El staying friends after the break up and Mike being worried for Will <33 and Mike and Robin bonding over their partners being in danger

Will is wearing one of Mike's shirts in s5, Mike wore something similar in s3 it's a gap shirt and Eddie said Mike wears gap shirts and Will has never worn something like this in the previous seasons and he didn't bring that many clothes back to Hawkins so he's gonna have to wear Mike's if he's staying at Mike's (the Wheelers added 2 chairs to their breakfast table and Will's tiger plushie is in Mike's room, it makes me think that they're already dating in the scene because Will is wearing blue yellow and green which are Byler's colors

Noah liking another byler edit? fork found in the kitchen. pic from @iamforbyler from here . there are hints that Mike and Will's first kiss will be in s5 episode 7 (during Jopper's first kiss there were boxes that said MW705, Mike and Will s5 episode 7) they definitely told him to promote Byler again to introduce Byler as boyfriends to the GA and Millie is not promoting mlvn anymore and when they asked her what her favorite pop culture couple was she said the couple from twlight instead of mlvn

Will's wearing Mike's black jeans, the blue shirt looks like something s2 Mike would wear but the undershirt looks like Will's in s4. he's just stealing his boyfriend's clothes atp because Will has never worn black jeans before and he's wearing blue (Mike's color) and Mike's the only one in the party who has worn black jeans and Will might be staying at Mike's because his tiger plushie was in Mike's room and the Wheelers added 2 chairs to their breakfast table plus Will has to stay at Mike's since he doesn't have a house in Hawkins and the cabin is too small for all the Byers to live in.

maybe he's wearing Mike's black jeans from s5 instead of the s4 ones but either way they're still Mike's jeans since Will has never worn black jeans before s5 and Mike has, Will is stealing his boyfriend's clothes, plus Mike is wearing Will's shoes in s5 <33

Byler is so obviously gonna happen even without all those proofs because they gave mlvn the stancy storyline of Nancy not being able to say "I love you" to Steve because she's in love with Jonathan and they didn't give that storyline to Jopper, Lumax and Jancy or even Duzie which are healthy couples who don't lie about who they are to each other and never felt unloved by their partners, and Mike wants to feel needed and Will needs him and El doesn't and Millie said El realized she's her own superhero and that she's gonna figure out who she is without Mike and Millie is not promoting mlvn anymore

Mike and Will spent s3 acting like they were the exes because in s2 Mike was overly affectionate with Will but he stopped doing that when he got a gf because he saw what he did as romantic so in his mind being affectionate with Will even just hugging him or just holding his hand like he did in s2 would be cheating because he's in love with Will and he's gay

Mike becomes less and less interested in El the more feminine she becomes, it becomes more difficult for him to pretend he's straight i mean he "fell in love" with her when she looked like a boy and people kept calling her a boy..

Mike probably thought she was a boy at first, everyone kept calling El the boy with the buzzcut at first in s1 and Mike said "that's not Will" instead of "that's a girl" and interesting thing is the more feminine El becomes the less interested in her Mike becomes, he probably thought El was a boy at first and she was wearing a yellow shirt (Will's color) maybe she reminded him of Will?

I mean Mike being gay aside who would you rather for him to be with?

A, with someone who doesn't understand him and he feels like he has to change himself to be with and who makes him feel insicure?

B, with someone who he feels like he can fully be himself with and who understands him and who puts him on the first place and makes him feel loved? B right? with Will

Jancy had their "we're just friends" moment and they kissed in 2 and Jopper had their "it's just 2 friends getting together for a nice dinner" moment and they kissed in s4 , Lumax had their "she's not my girlfriend" moment and they kissed in s2 and Byler had their "we're friends, we're friends" moment (started by Mike who doesn't know Will is gay) and they'll kiss in s5, there were no moments like these between Dustin and Lucas because they're not in love with each other

Byler's first cameo in a book and they're kissing and holding hands<33 it's about Alina wanting to ask a guy out and she catches the guy (Ben) kissing his boyfriend (Janos), there's carved "W+M" on the tree and a "byler" sign in the second pic, they probably asked permission to Netflix and people who worked on st to add them which makes Byler already canon? the author of the book reversed the arrow on Mike's pocket to point at Will.. and it's close to his heart.. that's adorable

pic from here @sususu34

originally El was supposed to die in s1 (I'm glad they didn't kill her) and they were already planning to make Will in love with Mike since s1? plus if they wanted to make Will move on they would've given him a bf in the previous seasons like with Dustin and Suzie because Max didn't like Dustin back. So basically Mike and Will are gonna get together in s5

JEALOUS MIKE WHEELER WELCOME BACK, Will getting his own love triangle as he should, or maybe it's just Mike since it says "a love interest" not "a new love interest".. I kinda want to see Mike being in pain for a bit tho since I had to witness Will being in pain for 4 seasons, I kinda want a guy to flirt with Will and Will tries to get to know the character to move on from Mike and Mike gets mad and jealous about it, although they did say there were no new characters in it.. and the only new boy is Derek who's Holly's age so maybe the love interest is just Mike, and Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend, they literally just confirmed Byler because they said Will is getting a boyfriend and they said they won't add any major characters in s5 so that means Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend

they literally just confirmed Byler is endgame because they said Will is getting a boyfriend and the Duffers said they won't add any major characters in s5 so Mike's gonna be Will's boyfriend since the only new characters are a woman a boy who's 10 and a family with 2 little kids and the Duffers said that Will's emotional arc (his relationship with Mike) is gonna tie up the whole season, if they wanted to give Will another boyfriend they would've done it in the previous seasons (like how they handled Dustin's unrequited love for Max in s2 and gave him a gf in s3) instead of making Will in love with Mike for 4 seasons

Mike is gonna be Will's love interest and boyfriend and they know it that's why they only allowed their subscribers to see this tweet to avoid a lawsuit, leak here, this leaker is really reliable and from Reddit

There's a leak about how Mike and Will are gonna clean each other's wounds in s5 episode 2 like Jancy did in s1, maybe Mike is gonna get hurt while protecting Will from something and Will is probably gonna be there scolding him while cleaning Mike's wounds and Mike is just staring at Will's face and not listening to a single word and blushing

this leaker has a source that was an extra for 2 weeks, take everything as a grain of salt, nothing is confirmed, Mike's gonna kiss Will first (and it's gonna be angsty) after he finds out Will lied about the painting and loves him back, the kiss is gonna happen halfway through the season or later

So according to a leak Mike has finally accepted that he's gay and he's not trying to be normal (straight) anymore, and he's discovering things about himself, he's gonna kiss Will first

So Finn's new st playlist (for s5) is really interesting.. Mike is gay, "it's a passing phase" "give it a hundred years, it won't go away' (from "angst in my pants")"I don't want to be the one whose coming out first" (it's from "don't ask me to explain) Mike wants Will to come out first and to confess first, and "should you need a love that's true, it's me" (from "what you're doing), Will needs Mike and Mike knows it, Mike and Will both have "just what I needed" as the last song in their playlists because they need each other, Mike also has a song about dreaming and thinking about a person they know they're not supposed to, it's his POV of Byler

This is the playlist (STurn), Finn makes playlists for characters he plays for inspiration

Mike tried to lie to himself and pretend that he could love El but he can't (because he's gay and in love with Will), there's a song called "don't ask me anything" in his playlist and the lyrics are "it's so easy to lie to myself and pretend i could love you but i can't" the last lyrics are about a failed relationship with a girl

in s5 episode 4 there will be a flashback with 8 yo Mike and Will and 13 yo Jonathan, the fact that they're spending so much time on Byler (and even giving us Miwi flashbacks) and that we already got confirmation that Will's gonna have a boyfriend (it's Mike) should tell y'all everything (they're gonna get together), they spent s2 and s4 together and they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) in s5 and spend most of s5 together, they're gonna film the scene in early July, Mike's the only one with lines so the scene is gonna be shot from his POV of Byler

Mike and Will are gonna spend most of s5 together because they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) and they're gonna have scenes with Rovickie where they're gonna be a group, Mike's obviously gay because otherwise they wouldn't have put him with other queer people, plus El's gonna have a separate arc from Mike (because they're gonna break up and she's gonna be more independent)

we're gonna get a scene of Byler riding a bike with Holly, Holly's gonna have to thirdwheel Mike and Will, good luck to her, Will's gonna spend most of S5 with Mike and they're gonna be a team (jopper parallel) and if Will's boyfriend was gonna be another boy they would've made Will spend most of S5 with that guy so basically Mike's gonna be Will's boyfriend

Pics here

Will's staying at Mike's which would explain the Wheelers adding 2 chairs and it would explain Mike and Will sharing clothes/items and it would explain Will hanging out with Holly, plus the Byers don't have their old house anymore

Now that we know that Will's staying at Mike's house we're gonna get so much domestic content like them sharing clothes/shoes, them sharing Mike's bed, them taking care of Holly together, them kissing, them going to school together .. They're so married

the mlvn make out scene people are talking about is just a kiss at the beginning of s5 which is gonna be their last kiss (a break up kiss?) which is gonna parallel stancy's last kiss in episode 1 s2 before they broke up and Nancy got with Jonathan ,I think they're doing that to compare Byler's first kiss (which is gonna be passionate and desperate) to mlvn's last kiss, also more confirmation that the painting is gonna be really important in both Mike and Will's storylines, a byler got these things confirmed by 2 sources but they said to not worry because this is not bad for Byler, it's actually good for us, production is also trying to keep Byler hidden (they're gonna get together),

Pics here

They're trying to keep Byler hidden because they're gonna date and the painting is gonna be really important to their storylines because that's how they're gonna get together

happy 2 years anniversary to the most obvious foreshadowing ever (making willelmike walk in their love triangle formation and making El walk away from them and picking up the same dead flowers Mike gave her at the airport because their relationship is dead and making Mike stay with Will and putting Byler with other couples and putting them in the center because the're gonna focus on that relationship in s5 and making them breath in sync while the other couples were holding hands, and they made the music pick up while they showed us the couples, Mike and Will are gonna get together in s5)

video of the scene here

so from what we know so far: a guy is gonna hit on Will and Will won't reciprocate, Jonathan hates that guy for hitting on Will and Mike and Will's relationship is gonna be extremely important in s5 and they're gonna be a team, it's kinda obvious what's gonna happen (Mike and Will are gonna get together), what if Will starts dating Chance and starts hanging out with him more to get over Mike and Mike gets mad and jealous about it and they fight about it and then we have another Byler rain fight but this time Mike's the jealous one? btw Jonathan HATES Chance for hitting on Will, he's a Byler shipper fr, pics of the leak here

Mike said he's the only one that CARES about Will because he's in love with him and he said he cares about El because he's trying (and failing) to love her the way he loves Will but when El called him out on him not loving her anymore he got defensive because he's not in love with her ,he's in love with Will and he's gay

Mike only said those things because he thinks El commissioned the painting and he felt like he owed it to El and you can tell that because he only started saying those things after Will said "you're the heart" and they called the soundtrack of the scene "you're the heart" because Mike now thinks the things Will said in the van were from El, in this scene Mike was trying to recreate the shed scene but the difference is no one pushed Mike into saying those things to Will and he didn't repeat any word he heard from others when he spoke to Will, in s5 he's gonna realize Will loves him back and that he lied about the painting and he's gonna kiss him, Mike likes to plagiarize things, pics here

THE OG PARTY IS BACK and so is the Byler height difference <33, Mike and Will being the IT couple in high school <33, Will is sitting in front of Mike during lunch <33 they're gonna be such a cute couple i just know it, they're gonna be the couple who plays footsies under the table, Holly has a gay thing in her room, maybe to support Mike being gay?

only the couples said to each other or about each other that they were "friends" while the actual platonic friends (Dustin and Lucas) never said it because they never felt the need to, and Mike said it about Will while not even knowing that Will is gay and in love with him.. he said it because he was thinking of Will romantically so he said "we're friends, we're friends" to convince himself not Will

the Duffers called Mike and El their E.T and Elliot (which are platonic friends) and the dead flowers El picked up at the end of s4 were the same flowers Mike gave her at the airport, dead flowers represent a dead relationship, hopefully after the break up they'll be able to communicate more and to actually get to know each other and rhat they'll be actual friends, Mike does love El but he loves her platonically even though he's been tryng to force himself into loving her romantically but he can't because he's gay and in love with Will, parallels here

Byler, Jancy and Lumax all held hands in the same episode in s2

Byler's parallels with Jancy: Nancy couldn't love Steve because she's in love with Jonathan, Mike can't love El because he's gay and in love with Will, Nancy talked to Jonathan about Steve on a car after the break up, Mike talked to Will about El on a car after the fight, Jonathan lied and said Steve asked him to bring Nancy home, Will lied about El commissioning the painting, Nancy yelled Jonathan's name in the upside down and he went to save her, Will yelled Mike's name in the upside down and Mike snapped Will out of his episodes

Byler's parallels with Lumax: Mike stayed with Will in the lab, Lucas stayed with Max in the hospital, Will yelled Mike's name during his episode and Mike snapped him out of his episode, Max yelled Lucas' name and Lucas was there for her, they played a song used in a s2 Lumax scene (on the bus) during Mike and Will's heart to heart and used the interruption trope (a romantic trope) in both scenes

Fun fact: they used "heroes" in s3 again but they cut the "and we kissed as though nothing could fall" lyrics that they used in s1 when Mike was hugging his mom and thinking about Will, those lyrics are reserved to Byler and I think they're gonna use this song again during Byler's first kiss, Acid (a leaker) said that Mike's arc in s5 is about self-discovery (which could be Mike understanding who he belongs with, Will) and that he's not gonna try to be normal (straight, Finn said that Mike was trying to be normal in s3 and s4) in s5, plus I think Mike and Will are gonna have another rain fight before the kiss since Shawn Levy hinted at another Byler rain fight, plus s5 is gonna be Will centric and Mike and Will's relationship is gonna be really important in s5

In the first picture Mike is looking at Will (the boy he's in love with) and in the second picture Trevor is looking at Lucky (the girl he has a crush on), Netflix posted this on Instagram

Mike and Will are gonna spend s5 together as a team (Jopper parallel) and their relationship is gonna be really important in s5, also Will is definitely staying at Mike's since he's hanging out with Mike and Holly so much

Mike is filming a lot of scenes with Robin (canon lesbian character) because he's gay, Will is gonna clean his boyfriend's wounds <33, is Robin gonna be Mike and Will's gay mentor and help them get together? i would love that, Mike and Will are sharing two pair of jeans and sharing stuff is a thing for couples

He called El a weapon in s1 and he wanted to send her back to the lab and only changed his mind when he realized she knew where Will was and that she could help him find him, he absolutely DID NOT fall in love with her her at first sight, if he actually loved her he would've chosen a moment where he actually showed that he was in love with her, plus he's gay and in love with Will, He said he fell for El at first sight because he saw Argyle say something similar about Eden and he tried to copy him, he got caught for plagiarizing something at school so it wouldn't be the first time for him doing that, plus he copied what Eddie said about Dustin and said it to El, plus the Duffers said that they don't believe in love at first sight and the first thing Mike said/thought when he first saw El was "that's not Will", he was trying to recreate the shed scene except that in s2 they won and no one lied to him and his words to Will were genuine and sincere while in s4 Will lied to him and made him think El commissioned the painting (which is why he said those things, he didn't know what to say before Will said "you're the heart") and they lost

The actress who plays Suzie ships Byler, Noah and Finn also ship Byler and Brett also ships Byler and Millie ships Byler and the actor who plays younger Henry ships Byler

why did they make Mike say he loved El in s3 and then made him say he forgot he said it and then in s4 he couldn't say it anymore? it makes no sense because he knows El heard him and he just could've just said it again to her face in s3 instead of acting dumb, also in s4 he put the blame on other people instead of on himself and instead of trying to comfort El and he was all defensive and stuff like Nancy when she broke up with Steve, Mike meant it platonically and he's gay

CALEB SAID THEY MADE PLAYLISTS FOR THEIR CHARACTERS, SO STURN (Finn made this playlist) IS ABOUT MIKE AND HE'S GAY (it has lyrics like "it's so easy to lie to myself and pretend that I could love you but I can't" which is about mlvn and "besides I don't want to be the one whose coming out first") which is about Mike wanting Will to come out as gay first because he's scared and it has a song about a milkshake and about how a relationship wasn't built to last (which is also about mlvn since they had milkshakes in s4), and he could also be referring to Mike's bassment beats, which has smalltown boy on it and that song is a gay song about a gay man leaving his homophobic town to find a new life and Finn said he wants Mike to leave Hawkins, or maybe it's the Wheeel playlist, Mike (Wheel)er, Finn made it for Mike, you use the wheel to drive and he put a song called "gay thoughts" in it because Mike is gay

Noah liked a byler edit yesterday (he already knows how the show ends since he's read the last episode script and he knows the endgames, so Mike and Will are gonna date)

Lukas from eyewitness is gay and has internalized homophobia and dated a girl to try and be normal, Mike is gay and has internalized homophobia and he's doing the same thing with El and Lukas has some parallels with Mike

these colors represent El, Will and Mike (i love how Mike is next to his boyfriend instead of in the middle) also i love that Mike wears make up (i have no idea what that thing does), Will is Mike's favorite <33

Will's love interest and boyfriend, they're gonna spend s5 together I can't wait, Mike and Will are still filming together and they're filming the final episodes, they're gonna be a team

Mike thinks he's unlovable but Will loves him like breathing <33, and he makes Mike feel loved instead of insicure and he understands him like no one else could and loves him the way Mike wants to be loved

Mike is wearing Will's clothes again, sharing clothes is a thing for couples

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship, and as it goes on you kinda realize that Will does.. am i allowed to say this?" we already know that Will is in love with Mike, why couldn't he say it? Why is it a spoiler? Because Mike loves him back and he confirmed that Will is still in love with Mike and he's not moving on, reminder that Noah has read the script of the last episode and he knows all the endgames (including Byler)

Mike's monologue made El angry and she knows he was lying to her, does she also know that Mike is gay? She knows Mike doesn't love her in a romantic way even if he tried to in s4

well now that we know that Will is still in love with Mike and that he's not moving on from him.. this leaker basically confirmed that Mike is gonna be Will's boyfriend (they made Will spell "lover" in the words game in the s5 bts pic)

So basically Mike is gonna go on a journey of self-discovery in s5 (accepting that he's gay and in love with Will)

Noah and Finn cried during the final table read , the Duffers said that they put a lot of time in the show to have a proper pay off and the fact that Finn said that the van scene will pay off in the end??

Noah saying: "Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" Cara Buono saying: "Mike goes on his journey in s5" (self discovery, accepting that he's gay and in love with Wll), Millie dodging the monologue question, her becoming a byler after reading the s5 scripts, Noah and Finn both crying at the final table read, Finn saying that the van scene will pay off in the end (the Duffers told him that), the Duffers saying that they put a lot of time in the show to have a proper pay off, Mike and Will sharing clothes and Will's shoes in s5, Finn making that STurn gay playlist about Mike and Caleb confirming that they made s5 playlists for their characters

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship"

"bye Will, see you Will🥰"

THIS MIKE WAS ALREADY IN LOVE WITH WILL :(

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THIS Mike realized he was in love with Will, this part of the letter matches with Mike's thoughts so well, he wants things to go back to how they were in s2 when things weren't awkward and he didn't know he was in love with Will

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THEY'RE IN LOVE

"only love makes you that crazy sweetheart"

"crazy together"

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" THIS Mike was already in love with Will and he thought he lost him forever without being able to confess to him :(

"Mike was always super protective of Will and Will always leaned on him, and you could never really tell if it was something romantic or just a really special friendship" this scene was always supposed to have romantic undertones because they're in love with each other

them playing "every smile you fake" while Will was faking a smile while dancing with a girl (he's canonically in love with Mike) them playing "and we kissed as though nothing could fall" while Mike hugging his mom while thinking about Will (because he's in love with Will), them using these lyrics was intentional

Karen Wheeler wanted to read lines for Joyce's play with Patty so she could kiss her, she's bisexual, she's queer like Mike

Byler looking at each other's lips <33 also Mike noticed something was wrong with Will before Will touched his neck because he was already looking at Will instead of watching the movie <33 i love the Byler and Lumax double date sm and Mike being a protective and worried boyfriend over Will

happy 7 years of this scene which was basically a love confession <33 in "st the first shadow" Henry was possessed by the Mindflayer (like Will) and Patty used the "power of love" (like Mike) to help Henry, and Will used the hand Mike held to communicate to the others to close the gate so basically gay love saved Hawkins <33

Mike has all the things he loves the most in his room, a wizard (Will) and buff men <33, and a buff male dragon for some reasons and he has Will's drawings in his room

the Duffers put "the Birdcage" on the s4 DNA board which is about a GAY MAN pretending to be straight in the same season where Finn said that Mike was trying to be as NORMAL as possible and where he was acting awkward around Will and in the season where he kept staring at Will's lips and where they played a song called "in the closet at rink o mania" when the camera panned to Mike and he started talking again", the closet is thin air atp, he's so gay

in s5 Mike is gonna go on a journey of self-discovery (accepting that he's gay and in love with Will),and he's not gonna try to be normal anymore Finn said that Mike was trying to be normal in s3 and s4 (he was trying to be straight), "he might be into some new things" (men), dnd is not new for him so the Hellfire Club was not new for him, the word "normal" has only been associated to the queer characters of st

the fact that Mike was trying to make things less gay but he made it gayer by acting weird around his "best friend" who he has "no feelings" for... like all Will wanted was a hug from his best friend of a decade.. homotron 7000 can't even hug his "best friend" anymore who may i remind you has NO IDEA WIll is gay and literally thought Will had a crush on a girl and made the painting for her and Mike got jealous and petty about it... oh and in s2 and s3 he had no problems with hugging Will or being physical with him..

if it was because they drifted away they would've made Will act awkward around Mike too but they didn't, It was confirmed by Finn twice that Mike has no idea Will is gay and he thought Will had a crush on a girl so why was he acting like that? Cuz he was jealous of the girl and gay panicking about Will's glow up

Mike uses his Will voice in Dustin's book and he's afraid of losing Will (and El), Dustin mentions all the things in his healthy relationship with Suzie (like having things in common and being honest with each other) and Mike can't relate to that (they spent s3 and s4 lying to each other) and he doesn't know what to talk to El about, this book was made by a professional writer who's a Byler shipper

in s2 in the shed scene they showed Byler while the lyrics said "if you say that you are mine" "i'll be here till the end of time" , they're the only fully romantic lyrics in the song

THIS was Mike's pov not Will's which is why Will is blurred out but after this Mike turns to Will and he looks happy but then Mike looks back at El and he looks sad and i think there are 2 reasons for that

1 he was scared of how El would react to the truth (he's gay and in love with Will)

2 he was trying to make Will jealous (cuz he knew Will was in love with him during that moment) but then he noticed that it didn't work and he got sad about it, at the airport he was also trying to make Will jealous by kissing El's cheek after he learned that Angela would be at rink o mania (and he thought Will had a crush on Angela), the parallels with Rovickie were intentional cuz we're gonna have 2 queer couples instead of one

they called the van scene the most heartfelt scene in s4? heartfelt means: from the heart, sincere, genuine, which means Mike lied during the monologue cuz they could've called that scene the most heartfelt scene of s4 but they didn't

Holly is gonna go missing but at least Mike and Will are gonna look for her together in the upside down <33 (and maybe that's where they're gonna confess and kiss?), they posted Byler, Jancy and Jopper for st day (and Robin and Vickie's chairs)

maybe we'll get a Byler rain kiss? because in August Noah posted a picture of Byler and a bts picture of him sitting on a chair wrapped in a towel and Shawn acknowledged a post that said that they wanted another angsty Byler scene like the s3 rain fight, hopefully they'll play heroes during Byler's first kiss

Mike said "I didn't know what to say" about his fight with El as if she wasn't literally begging him to say the words "I love you" AND Mike relating and nodding to Will saying "what if they don't like the truth?" Why wouldn't El like Mike "loving" her? She literally heard Mike saying it in s3 and she liked it, so why was Mike so scared of the truth? Because he's gay and in love with Will and he has abandonment issues AND internalized homophobia and he's depressed, the El scene has another meaning behind it: Nina waiting for her lover to come back but he doesn't come back and Nina leaving the station= Mike not being able to love El the way she wants to be loved and her breaking up with Mike in s5 (tho i think it will be a mutual break up)

in s4 Mike bit his lip while checking Will out, because he's gay and in love with Will

Mike listened to his boyfriend's heart in s1, he was so happy to see Will<3, I hope we'll get a scene where Will listens to Mike's heart instead, maybe while they're cuddling in s5?

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