#louis is upset with his relationship with claudia not what happened with lestat

[nashvillethotchicken]

some of you all really think louis and claudia got together in november 1917 and said "you know what would be so funny? if you wrote in your personal diaries that you didnt think anyone would read about how we were abused by lestat even though I wasnt/was exaggerating/ was the actual abuser so we could trick a bunch of white people in 100 years to sell a book and so I can kill myself. that'd be hilarious" and i need you to use your brains for literally 15 seconds

[cuntylouis]

I'm getting tired of hearing the sentiment that Louis doesn't care about Armand's trauma or have any sympathy for him. In the museum scene his expressions and body language were almost exactly similar to the scenes where Claudia and Lestat talk about their respective assaults. And in all these scenes he's mostly quiet. So does it mean Louis doesn't care about Claudia's or Lestat's traumas either? Of course not. It's just how he outwardly reacts in situations like this. He tends to shut down and doesn't know how to express his empathy and distress. Dreamstat represents Louis' hidden thoughts, but at the museum he's actually next to Louis listening quietly for the most of the scene. It's only at the end when Armand compares Marius, Magnus and Lestat to each other that dreamstat reacts angrily. And it's not mocking what happened to Armand, it's a manifestation of Louis' discomfort, him fearing that he's being manipulated and being uncomfortable that Lestat is brought up and that his relationship with Lestat is compared to Armand and Lestat's disturbing relationships with their own makers.

What Louis says to Armand in San Francisco is incredibly cruel. He's on drugs and extremely upset and intentionally trying come up with the most hurtful words he can think of, they both are. He very obviously deeply regrets it later. When he wakes up after the sun scene and remembers what he did and what kind of things he said before it he's ashamed and distressed. He's crying (though partially because of pain) and immediately tries to apologize to Armand and reach out for him. He's not angry when Armand leaves him in pain, probably thinking that he deserves it. When Armand later says "after what you put me through here i deserve this" Louis agrees. That's not someone who doesn't care or have empathy.

As often with Louis, i think the things he says to Armand are as much about Louis himself as they're about Armand. He sees himself in Daniel, and his entire speech to Claudia in 2.01 is directed also at himself, and he's projecting his own self-hatred and insecurities onto Armand. Louis fears that he is boring and dull. His husband repeatedly cheated on him and laughed in his face when Louis asked isn't he enough. During his depression years Lestat complained about Louis just reading and not leaving the house and how he was drawing Lestat into his gloom. He felt his sister-daughter was more interested in the theater and the coven than spending time with him. The coven mocked him and his passions and didn't find him that interesting after he stopped being a novelty. He was told that he didn't have much artistic talent. In the 70s his life seems to be repetitive and meaningless.

Louis subconsciously detests the qualities he recognizes in Armand that he recognizes and detests in himself - including being a victim. The interview was interrupted when Daniel criticized Louis for going back to Lestat and for his passivity and suicidal ideation. When he's fighting with Armand that all is on his mind. What he says about Armand's "daddy vampire grooming him into a little bitch" actually brings to my mind such scenes as how he derisively said in the second interview that he had become an unhappy housewife living with Lestat, and how dreamstat called him a "little whore". The shame of having experienced abuse and all the feelings of emasculation and degradation that came with it have never left him. Even in the second interview Louis firmly says to Daniel that he doesn't consider himself abused and that he isn't a victim. I don't think Louis consciously thinks that being abused makes someone a bad or weak person, but on some subconsious level he probably feels like that - at least if it's about himself. Again, in this same episode we see Louis acting like he deserves how Armand treats him after their fight and his suicide attempt

[fascinationstreetmp3]

i personally think something needed to understand louis, to understand his relationship with armand and his state of mind in dubai, is that he's severely depressed. and it's not just being suicidal that he struggles with because of it, it's being apathetic and numb and lethargic at one extreme; it's being reckless and angry and emotional at the other. he can spend years letting the world pass him by or years numbing himself with drugs and we've been shown both.

we've already seen armand facilitating the latter behaviour, however much he resented it— he stepped back and watched louis go on benders where he got high and fucked and killed men in the apartments they owned together, apologising for it before he doing it all over again. it was incredibly unhealthy and damaging behaviour louis was engaging in, but it kept his mind off of claudia and lestat and paris, it gave him time away from armand, it made him feel something. and even if they argued about it, armand probably never intervened the way he did until that night in 1973. we don't know how things were between them after that (from 1973 to 2022) yet.

their dynamic in dubai is partly borne of armand enabling the other extreme. louis is flat and doesn't engage with the outside world much at all, doesn't leave the house, and armand encourages this behaviour with the environment in the penthouse. he sands down rough edges, brings nature and food inside to louis, shutters the windows. he keeps anything that might disrupt this "calm" (numb) state away from him, anything that might hurt or distress him or provoke strong emotions, because in armand's mind the alternative is so much more destructive. & louis doesn't know he actually did try to kill himself in 1973, but he knows he's been suicidal multiple times before. and now he feels apathetic and empty all the time. he doesn't push back against it. he lets it happen and grows emptier every day in his safe melancholy.

and like... obviously this is not a good thing. this isn't a defense of armand's behaviour or pinning the blame on louis. armand says he "cares for louis more than he cares for himself" and "preserves louis' happiness". i think he's doing what he thinks is best for louis in dubai, but the end goal is really more what is best for himself. "happy" louis = "happy" armand, because armand is not alone. and the more detached and distracted louis is, the less he considers the past, the less he focuses on armand's role in all of it. so armand takes whatever placates louis at the time and pushes it to its extreme. and louis gets to remain numb, to not think about or reflect on memories or anything that upsets him... until his state of mind shifts in 2022, and he decides he wants to break out of this state, and he contacts daniel for a second interview.

[shesnake]

I wanted to know your thoughts on this but do you think it's fair to say either Louis or Armand are abusive in their relationship? Idek if this is a valid angle to view the characters from because I guess they're all monsters or whatever but a part of me thinks that it's kinda lukewarm to refuse to engage with the complicated themes of the show, which abuse is featured heavily and pretty clearly imo. This isn't aimed at you btw. Something I noticed is people tend to use some of Louis's less favorable moments to justify the violence he experiences. Like that post about Armand just matching Louis energy in ep 5, most of the notes are taking the stance that Louis is a cold, unempathic pimp who doesn't care about sa victims, that Armand genuinely is completely right when he says he is always cleaning up after Louis that he was only worried and tenderhearted and Louis escalated in the worst way and that after Louis said that he deserved everything that happened after. And I may be biased but to me that is so fucking crazy. To me it seems like fans, specially nonblack fans, have zero empathy for black abuse victims, actively enacting abuse culture even. But idk if that is a too reactive view. I don't want to say Louis isn't flawed because he is. But I mean we are watching the season about Armand getting Claudia killed on purpose and somehow people are still like Maybe Armand didn't do it, maybe it was all Louis, maybe Louis really asked for it. All of it. I think there's a problem there but idk I kinda feel a little crazy too. Btw disclaimer I fuckin hate Lestat this is not about comparing Loumand/Loustat lol

hi! and wow there is so much to discuss here...

I think it is fair to describe the actions of both Louis and Armand towards each other as abusive by definition but it's always important to remember that it is Armand in the position of greater power over him. Armand is older, stronger, owns dominion. He can walk in the sun, manipulate memories, and live without constant debilitating hunger for blood - all of which are things that impede Louis from being his own person outside of Armand.

Louis also faced this same predicament when he was with Lestat, but unlike Armand who uses his own innate powers against Louis, Lestat mostly used his social advantages of whiteness, wealth etc in addition to withholding key knowledge about vampirism to keep himself in control and Louis dependent on him.

and sure Louis can lash out all he wants! He can mock Armand's sexual trauma (trauma which Armand himself already gets them both to fetishise... but that's a whole different conversation...) he can hit back when Lestat hits him but when he's with either of those guys he is always going to be the victim. Nothing shitty he does to his partners, or to Claudia, or to Daniel, justifies what is being done to him by these men.

There absolutely has to be anti-blackness involved in any argument that says Louis deserves any of this. (Of course Armand as a brown South Asian man is not immune from fandom racism but his treatment is racialised in a different way that is also a different conversation). Any negative behaviour from a Black man is going to be seen by racists as exponentially more aggressive than it is, especially the cross-section with those you mentioned who aren't engaging with the complicated themes of this show exploring abuse.

They can see that Louis yelling at Armand is bad, but don't notice that Armand is being manipulative. They can see that Louis stabbing Lestat that one time during sex is bad (and still sexualise it), but don't notice that Louis is disassociating in every sex scene he has with Lestat afterwards (because they're too busy sexualising it). They can see that Louis making Daniel upset is bad, but don't notice that Daniel has been leveling dozens of racist and homophobic micro-aggressions at him since episode 1.

Armand got a few minutes to tell his tragic backstory in Louvre, Lestat had 2 or 3 different scenes in season 1 to recall his own. It's just been words. Meanwhile racists erase Louis' experiences with trauma because they never had enough fucking empathy for him to begin with to even register it happening to him! on screen! in real time! right in front of us!

And yeah Louis and Armand and Loumand are incredibly complex and compelling, and I do enjoy seeing Louis' moments of cruelty towards Armand! But he's never going to win against him in the game Armand built for him.

And in terms of Claudia, I do think that Louis failed her, as he has always failed her. And is responsible for her death in that regard. But that failure involved letting those other two fucking sharks eat her!!! I personally haven't seen anyone pushing the blame completely off Armand and onto Louis but I wouldn't be surprised. This week I've more pissed off about people levelling it all on Armand and think of Lestat as an unwilling participant.... this is of course the blonde white vampire show....

anyways sorry this is so long! thanks for the message this was really interesting to think about.

[lestcat-de-lioncourt]

In response to the assumption that Lestat never loved Claudia

Whilst there were moments describing that he didn't really care about Claudia, it's not certain but he seemed to think she was in the way, though, this story is told by Louis who is known very well to be a totally unreliable narrator with now Armand who is butthurt about Lestat running off from him as well, whispering in his ear. Likewise, Claudia's diary has multiple pages stripped out, and it's mostly the parts favouring Louis left.

Lestat gifted what was assumed to be a family heirloom, at least in fan theory, (the gorgeous antique necklace) rather than given to him by a marquis as he mentions upon doing so, something you would often gift to your child you ultimately cared for and saw as your child. Though, whoever gave it to Lestat, it was still a special gift.

Lestat taught Claudia a multitude of talents, which Louis would not teach her nor encourage her to do. Piano, chess, hunting to survive (not particularly done by Louis due to his vegetarian vampirism), and Daniel calls out a lot of what Louis has to say was her relationship with Lestat and how he's painting it to be.

Looking toward the time when they conspire to kill Lestat, children can be easily manipulated, not to mention that she has the mind as a young person and there's trials and tribulations we have to go through during puberty, and it's a rather vulnerable time.

He looked regretful when he called her a mistake as well.

I know people so often accuse him of not loving her just because he's telling her off, normally in situations that would literally threaten her life and anonymity, and safety, this drastic opinion and assumption parents don't love their kids if they tell them off during moments that could end up killing them, is really telling of who has got kids and who hasn't ever needed to look after one.

Maybe he loves her, maybe he doesn't, he certainly struggles with her, and it's the age old tale of one parent being jealous of the other, or feeling lonely once having kids as the relationship may because less consistently intimate with less time to spend together, alone. There's things she's done that upsets him. He struggles with her playing them off against each other, but that's what kids often do. It's a survival technique.

It's very clear that he's too messy to be a good parent. He needs a whole lot of therapy, but that doesn't remove someone's capacity to love their kids. He has a lot of love for them.

This isn't related to his unchanging polyamory taking on various lovers, which he was very clear about with Louis, and he'd initially consented to and even done himself.

People look at Lestats behaviour and immediately assume he doesn't care nor has any real love for any of them, but that's so not true. The reality of love and family dynamics aren't as clear-cut as people try to paint them and disqualify more complex expressions of their feelings towards one another.

It is stated that he is forever haunted with the guilt and shame of Claudia's death.

You can see love and hurt and a series of emotions he felt when Louis asked Lestat to make them a baby (in the adaption, though yes, it is an adaption), for them to start a family, that he wanted a kid with Lestat. In that moment, he did, though he says he made her as the ultimate gift for Louis, a daughter, a child, and starting their own family. This is a very raw feeling that people who decide to have kids will often experience. I don't believe he "baby trapped" Louis though, as many keep saying, considering he was worried about the consequences that would happen to her and her future as a child immortal. Seeing how distraught Louis was and empathetic to the potential death of the child, he changed her. He tried to highlight to Louis that in the end, it could do her more harm than dying.

I don't think he never loved Claudia, I may well be wrong, though.

[elrondsscribe]

Okay so here’s the thing. I freely admit I am Big Stupid. I forget things constantly. The Vampire Chronicles is a layered tale packed with constant retcons and gaps getting filled. Whole chunks of characters’ stories slip my mind on the reg.

So I understand I may be missing something major.

But.

From where I’m standing … I know that Armand was v upset when it happened, and given everything he’d been through to that point he’s absolutely allowed to be upset; but did Marius do wrong by turning Sybelle and Benjamin?

Hear me out: the rule of this universe wrt humans who tango with vampires is there’s only three eventual outcomes: death, madness, or vampirism. Obvs if Armand had his choice at that point in the series he’d have preferred them to have regular human lifespans and eventually die, but 1) given his history with Daniel, who knows if he wouldn’t eventually have changed his mind, and 2) it might not have been what they necessarily wanted for themselves. Cause the way both Sybelle and Benji talk makes it sound like they might’ve actually asked Marius to get vamped??

(And Pandora? Or wtf was Pandora even doing while all this was happening? She was there, what was she doing?)

Because here’s their response to it:

(…) Sybelle rose from the piano, and with her arms out ran to me. And Benji, who had been watching all the while, rushed to me also, and they imprisoned me gently in their tender arms.

“Oh, Armand, don’t be angry, don’t be, don’t be sad,” Sybelle cried softly against my ear. “Oh, my magnificent Armand, don’t be sad, don’t be. Don’t be cross. We’re with you forever.”

“Armand, we are with you! He did the magic,” cried Benji. “We didn’t have to be born from black eggs, you Dybbuk, to tell us such a tale! Armand, we will never die now, we will never be sick, and never hurt and never afraid again.” He jumped up and down with glee and spun in another mirthful circle, astonished and laughing at his new vigor, that he could leap so high and with such grace. “Armand, we are so happy.”

“Oh, yes, please,” cried Sybelle softly in her deeper gentler voice. “I love you so much, Armand, I love you so very very much. We had to do it. We had to. We had to do it, to always and forever be with you.”

Like, in the immediate aftermath, they’re both over the moon about it; they’ve even fed already. Later in the Prince Lestat era, they both seem fine; like I’m not recalling any major fledgling angst.

Claudia was eternally unlucky, and she was intensely lonely. Her relationships with both Lestat and Louis were complicated and strained (to the point that she tried to kill Lestat), she didn’t really have peers, and by the time she finally got a companion Armand was already engineering her death.

Daniel gradually went unhinged for a decade before becoming a vampire, and Armand might’ve blamed himself for Daniel’s full-fledged insanity afterward but it sounds to me like even if he’d somehow survived that horrible night he’d have lost his mind anyway. (By the way, who was it that kept Daniel fed while he was in that madness, huh?)

Benjamin and Sybelle are super lucky, relatively speaking; they have each other as peers, and Armand is somewhere between a peer and a guardian. From what we see in the PL era, they have their pursuits, they have a place in the vampire world — as fledgling vampires go, they seem to have as close to an ideal life as fledgling vampires get.

And like,, they got what they wanted: their Forever With Armand, with the sweet bonus of less physical harm to fear. And in the long run, after the … Veil-induced mania? wears all the way off, it seems like Armand isn’t that unhappy about it either.

So.

As much as Armand is totally allowed to have his feelings about it in the moment, all things considered it doesn’t seem like Marius “ruined” much of anything by turning them. At least not to me.

(Marius and Pandora? Tf was she doing?!)

[nalyra-dreaming]

https://www.tumblr.com/nalyra-dreaming/750916431920676864/hi-nalyra-i-may-be-reading-you-wrong-so-clarify

Regarding my last ask I have a rough idea but you can go ahead and explain

Sure!

So, buckle up ;)

So I just checked but the only true Loumand post I tagged “lol“ on was this one (if I saw that correctly):

Note that "I can SMELL the discourse that will happen already" there.

That is something I anticipate - because, well. Armand... is Armand.

I'll elaborate the (book) canon on that below the cut:

Armand has been a coven master for centuries, in the Children of Satan/Darkness and later as the master at the theater. He was literally tasked to uphold the laws of the vampires and did so as he saw fit. I have talked about them here, note also the difference these laws go through in the books:

Armand does what he sees is best, which does not always align with what others think is best. For example he usually hunts down rogue vampires, "cleaning up" so to speak, which is something that Lestat for example is loathe to do in the later books.

And he canonically influences Louis several time with the mind/spell gift, to make him do something - even after he promised Louis not to do so (here an ask with quotes):

Armand originally is interested in Louis because he is Lestat's ... he literally "imprinted" on Lestat when showed up after his turning, because Lestat reminded him so much of Marius.

Lestat goes to him to plead for Louis' and Claudia's life after Claudia tried to kill him, and Armand, though he did promise he would help Lestat if he asked him to, throws him into a dungeon instead, starves him, and then uses him at the trial against Louis and Claudia.

The trial itself happens because Louis - even deeply infatuated with Armand - decides to leave with Claudia and Madeleine after all. (And of course the coven knows, and insists on the rules.)

Armand uses the spell gift on him as they are taken by the coven to be tried.

Louis is sentenced to be entombed, something the original cult Armand was the leader of did to young vampires - until they're mad or manage to dig themselves out.

Claudia is sentenced to death. Madeleine as well. Later on it is revealed that Armand has a little surgical theater there as well, where he conducts the experiment of chopping off Claudia's head to sew it onto a grown woman's body. But he is unsatisfied with the result and puts Claudia and Madeleine into the sun after.

Armand digs Louis out after a while, and Louis feeds (a lot) and destroys the coven.

He thinks Lestat died there, but actually it is later revealed that Armand throws Lestat off a tower instead, and tells Lestat Louis and Claudia are dead.

Louis goes on, numb, and Armand... tags along, keeping a "veil" between Louis and the world.

Louis stays with Armand, because he has nowhere else to go - and despite knowing that Armand killed Claudia.

He stays until the veil is lifted and Armand finally tells him Lestat did not die.

Armand... is Armand.

We will see the horrific things he can do wrt the Devil's Minion arc with Daniel as well, because Armand hunted Daniel. And the beginning of their relationship was far from cute. I think that will be episode 5.

Also, Armand is not too big on consent. He does what he thinks best.

I reblogged something earlier wrt this as well:

So where does that leave us with the show and wrt my tag? :)

When Armand says he never hurt Louis then he is not lying. But look at their faces after:

That's history, baby.

Because no, Armand does not physically hurt Louis.

But he literally hurts everyone Louis loves in an effort to keep Louis for himself.

He experiments and then kills Claudia (and Madeleine). He hurts Lestat and tells him Louis is dead. He tells Louis Lestat is dead and keeps him under the "veil".

And it will be far from pretty.

[mameeta]

In regards to Lestat's apology to Louis, I commend Sam Reid because he really dug deep. What I saw going on in Lestat was something I saw happen to a friend of mine.

My friend grew up in an abusive household with a father that beat him and his mom to hell and gone and my friend, who had a temper, absolutely refused to become physically abusive with their partners, no matter how difficult they treated him. His biggest fear was becoming his father.

I think back to the dinner scene in season 1 where Paul asked Lestat about his relationship with Jesus. I remember what he said. Do you know what that kind of upbringing can do to a person? Then I remembered Lestat talking about how he was turned. Again a very traumatic thing. In fear for his life, then only to be left alone, neglected. He didn't want anything to do with being a vampire. What does this do to a person?

Fuck being a Lestat apologist. He apologized without making excuses and owned up to it. But what he really had to face is that he, in that act of violence against his lover, became like his father. He broke Louie like his father broke him.

So yeah that was amazing on Sam Reid part because in that moment, during that confession, I didn't see the adult sexy vampire man. I saw an upset boy.

I love that Claudia was there to slap away his words. One must never forget what happened, and as we all saw by now Louis will wallpaper over the worst of things to give it a better look and that would have done no one any good. Not him or Lestat.

And it's good that he understands that forgiveness for that is undeserved even if it was to be given anyway. He had that throat slit coming and he knew it. I guess he just wished it took.

[pynkhues]

I am SO CURIOUS about so many details surrounding the trial, and I'm sure we'll get answers to at least some things next season, but right now I'm curious, if Lestat is being held against his will (and I think he had to be, since if he weren't somehow imprisoned, he could have just saved Louis and Claudia by warning them), then the coven/Armand knew that he didn't want Louis and Claudia to die--so, assuming they didn't think he'd have the strength to mind control the audience like that, were they at all worried that he'd just go off script and start telling the audience to save them, or something? Or did they threaten him with something if he didn't go along with it? Since apparently they/Armand have enough control over him to keep him in Magnus's tower (as Sam said that Lestat wouldn't go there voluntarily)? It's just so intriguing--Lestat is lucid enough to behave the way we see him in that rehearsal flashback, and his displeasure at what's happening is clear, yet they seem to expect that he'll mostly go along with the trial and either not try or not be able to save Louis or Claudia.

And as I write this, I wonder if there is some of the torture/weakening stuff that the books have, and that Armand threatens Lestat with more if he doesn't comply, or something---but could it also be that Armand doesn't think Lestat LOVES Louis, or Claudia, enough to defy him for their sakes? That he thinks that even if Lestat doesn't like what's happening, he can't possibly care deeply enough about someone to sacrifice himself for them? Just thinking of the way Armand says "He loved you..." in ep. 8.

No idea if that's right, but it's just one of the MANY things I am curious about. Still so curious too about Lestat being in that tower and that whole interaction between the three of them and what was really going on.

Oh, interesting, anon! I hadn't actually considered that Armand and the Coven might think that Lestat didn't care deeply enough about Louis and Claudia to think he wouldn't try something. I've really been thinking they probably felt the combination of Armand's power (particularly with him being so much older than Lestat) and their own as a collective, on top of deliberately keeping him in a weakened state (I assume they're going to be feeding him the corpse blood like they do in the book given how unwell he seemed to be by the end) would be enough.

I actually tend to think that Armand knowing how much Lestat loves Louis and Claudia will be a part of what's motivating him to go through with the trial?

If they stick to that plot in the book and Lestat comes to Paris hoping to drink from Armand to finish healing, while Armand thinks he's come to see him romantically, it really does impact Armand two-fold. After all, now in the show, he knows exactly how much Louis hasn't been able to let go of Lestat, and if he knows how much Lestat loves Louis in return, Lestat's re-emergence doesn't just become a fresh rejection of Armand, but it poses a threat to Armand's current relationship with Louis too.

Armand's been starved of genuine love throughout his life, and a part of what's particularly fun (and upsetting!) about the Armand and Lestat dynamic in those early books is there's this genuine charge and connection between them, but Lestat always chooses some version of a family apart from Armand. First it's Gabrielle and Nicki, then its Louis and Claudia, and Armand's role in the destruction of parts of those families - cutting off Nicki's hands which leads to his suicide and the murder of Claudia - gives such a sense to me of like - - if he can't be a part of it, if he can't be the main part of it, he's going to destroy it.

I think that's a part of what's at play for Armand in the trial? He sees Claudia as a hindrance (a burden!) to his relationship with Louis, yes, but he's obviously hung-up on the fact that Lestat was her maker too, in the same way he derides Lestat for making Nicki. These falliable, imperfect children who somehow become more important to Lestat than he can ever figure out how to be himself, and I think it's interesting that he tells Lestat about Nicki, then Louis about Claudia, that neither of them were ever going to survive before becoming instrumental in their deaths.

I don't know if that makes sense, haha, it's still early here, but yeah! I think Armand knowing how much Lestat loved them is probably deep down motivating him, as opposed to something he's overlooked.

[licncourt]

I totally understand your opinion about amc Lestat but don't you think this could just be Louis' perspective on him? Or Claudia herself? They portrayed Lestat as a demon in first book, I want to give a chance to the 2 second , the show plays a lot with things from point of view and memory, I think people are giving up too soon...

I've talked about this before, but it was over a year ago now so I'll explain again.

While I understand where you're coming from, I honestly don't think it would matter to me. Even if what happened in ep 5 was 100% something Louis or Claudia dreamed up, I would still have major issues because:

Even though ep 1 had a content warning for Paul's suicide, there was absolutely nothing before ep 5, something that the viewers had established trust with the creators to do. I think there's one now on AMC+, but that was added weeks later after backlash. The showrunners doubling down and the episode director almost mocking fans who were upset was incredibly tasteless as well.

The story as pitched by the showrunners feels very much like bait and switch false advertising. It was pitched to the viewers as a gothic love story that was "the most faithful adaptation of IWTV ever". Not to mention the insane tonal shift into something that moved from fantasy violence against NPCs to brutal domestic violence and the vampire version of sexual assault. Anyone coming from the books had no reason to anticipate this dynamic between Loustat, nor would anyone who checked out the source material prior to see if they would be okay with it

If they go the "Louis/Claudia imagined this/made it up/misremembered the events" route, I think that's a questionable at best and offensive at worst narrative to put forth about domestic violence victims since the showrunners seem to not see anything wrong with it. Portraying it is one thing, not seeing how presenting domestic abuse as "the fallibility of memory" is pretty messed up is another

Especially considering Rolin Jones' comments after one of the episodes that he wanted to "play with race" as a white man, I find the ep 5 events combined with the dynamic in ep 6 gross as hell. It's explicitly referred to as being like a master/slave relationship, that's insane considering the stated goal of the show was to make the story modern and racially aware. Obviously AMC wants Loustat to be romantic endgame, but they're starting off with a white man basically owning his black partner and child like animals

My problems with the episode also extend to Claudia's sexual assault. Again, not something that was in the book at all but rather added by a white male creator because I guess that's the only way women are allowed to face adversity in media. Claudia is already an incredibly tragic character, that was absurd to add for what, drama? Having Daniel make cruel comments about it to Louis and having Lestat (a canon sexual assault victim) mock her for it is the cherry on top.

Overall it was just a really shitty thing for the creators to do no matter what the ultimate outcome. Several of my good friends who are book fans were extremely triggered by the scene and totally blindsided by something that felt completely gratuitous and honestly like shock bait to be edgy and generate social media buzz. Again, unbelievably tasteless.

I don't have any faith in the good intentions of the creators anymore, and that sucks because there were a lot of good things about the show before that.

[ca-suffit]

this is not aimed at you ur not doing this at all, but it bothers me when people say that they dislike the fight revisit for “making louis out to be no longer a victim” bc those people are telling on themselves without realising. i saw some comments online that were people genuinely upset that the show “retconned” his abuse and making louis unlikable. like okay so u think that lestat was justified bc louis said mean things to him? i do get having mixed feelings on it because of the fans that have genuinely taken it as an excuse for lestat’s violence but at the same time, the show shouldn’t have to present perfect victims in order to placate lowest common denominator viewers and abuse apologists. especially when the writing is screaming that lestat was the one in the wrong. the show, lestat, sam, everyone is saying lestat fucked up in that scene, not louis, they haven’t been subtle or ambiguous at all.

it's been mind boggling to see what I assume are adults rly get fucked up by all of this? even if u haven't had a fight to that level of violence, surely most ppl have otherwise had an argument?? I know this fandom is antiblack as hell so I can understand the concern about how the reactions to louis would be after this. otherwise tho, like I wrote in another post, that revisit didn't change anything? there is no such thing as a perfect victim and nobody ever lets black men be victims as it is. if lestat hadn't dropped louis, that would have just been a vampire-level couple's argument they prbly would have recovered from in like a day. it's not healthy but they're obviously not healthy. all these vampires come from trauma and backgrounds, especially as men, that don't allow them to understand how to communicate or even rly have relationships. they're all fucking bad at this (except claudia, RIP u had it figured out!!). I am taking a not-that-very wild guess that the show will be following them thru figuring this shit out *together,* especially louis and lestat.

the fight started to begin with bcuz of lestat's fear that louis was going to leave him. they had seven years of resentment of each other with claudia gone that finally came out that night. it was already over when lestat lunged at claudia. that was the breaking point and nothing beyond then mattered. it had already been unleashed. there's no tallying of this stuff in real fights but u know when the line is crossed, if it is, and like u said, it's been stated by every source now. there's no reason to keep looking for a change of story here. it happened and that alongside claudia's death will now hang over the both of them and we'll just have to see where it goes from here.

[blaqueswanzaghouliishiilikeda]

bare with me bc im fatigued but unable to sleep so i’m just here thinking and need to get my thoughts out, but i think much of louis’ passivity stems from his relationship with his mother and family. we don’t really see him become passive until claudia arrives. please correct me if i’m wrong but i believe that side of him is awakened once that traditional family structure is solidified in his home and i think the du lac family has a lot to do with why he’s like that and not just that he’s incapable of acting or choosing.

i see him and i see the child/mother that doesn’t want to repeat his mother’s failings on his own family but takes it so far to the extreme that it means he refuses to confront anything ever bc he feels he’s communicating the unconditional love he never received. he really is someone who wants the ones in his life to know they can be loved through anything. whether or not people receive it in the way he gives it i don’t think should be put on his shoulders as much it is.

he doesn’t have healthy understanding of discipline/consequences bc he was punished for things he couldn’t help like his queer identity. it doesn’t really seem like growing up he got into much trouble, again correct me if im wrong. other than paul his pimping isn’t really admonished by the du lacs bc it affords them their lifestyle. they are willing to distance themselves from it bc they get the house and the staff and the honeymoon trips etc. but they won’t overlook who he is. and it outweighs anything else. and that’s a weird thing to process being punished for bc the only thing you can do is deny yourself. but they know. so you hiding it and they know and they show you they disapprove even if you’re trying to play by their rules. it creates a complex.

then there’s paul. he’s the only one who really took it on to take care of paul and establish a relationship with him. i think florence probably didn’t push back against his institutionalization and grace seems to agree he belonged there. louis was the only one who saw how it negatively impacted paul. he loved paul that was his favorite person and then he killed himself and florence blames him for simply being there. this is where he starts to go from the favored son to the scapegoat which is a fucked transition to experience and i think its super underestimated how badly louis is impacted by it. it also happens when he starts to openly entertain lestat so it’ll never matter that his last moments with paul were expressions of love bc his all florence sees is that he’s been acting in sin and so of course he must of done and said something to kill her baby who he was raising and caring for in her place btw. when paul was upset he went to louis not florence. the last thing he ever said to paul was he loved him and he still died and florence blames him for it. he’s always punished for loving as far as he’s concerned.

then he does make “a choice” to become an immortal monster/companion/wife, which given all the circumstances is very much not much of a choice on his part, but he decides to go with what he wants and that choice is at the center of the unraveling of almost all the things he cares about and links to his human identity. and he clings to his human identity so i believe that fucks with his ability to trust his own decision making for sure. it’s the loss of his role in his family slowly but surely and everything he did he did for them. he always struggles with his decisions about how he supports his family and how he copes w the impact it has on his community. so if in choosing his own desire to love and be loved for once strips him of his family and his community what does that say about the decisions he made along the way? what was it all for? and then on top of that he didn’t even know what he was choosing in choosing immortality with lestat. he’s rocked by being faced with the reality of his choice so much so that he forgot his brother died for a moment. he’s probably developed an inability to take a step in any direction bc every step leads to a new rock bottom and he doesn’t trust himself anymore. that’s a very real thing that happens.

so how does that manifest when he has his own lil nuclear family?? well

with claudia he doesn’t ever want her to feel like she could ever lose his love for her for any reasons. like his family showed him. so bc his own punishments were correlated with who he was and not things he did really i don’t think he’s able to see disciplining claudia as guiding her towards better actions i think he sees it as punishing her for being as she is which he blames himself for and also for loving (where charlie is concerned but i’ll get to that…). it was his choice to bring her into this life so how can he trust himself beyond loving her unconditionally. that’s what he wants so that’s what he gives. claudia does what she does bc she’s a vampire and she didn’t choose that. he did. so he retreats when the consequences of that crop up and becomes passive. he doesn’t want to take a step in any direction on top of the patriarchal structure that the father is the law of the house, but then charlie happens.

claudia didnt kill charlie out of maliciousness. it was young love with all the demanding of the insatiable hunger of a vampire. even lestat recognizes that she got carried away so to louis punishing her or even makeing her feel bad for the action was too deeply entwined with punishing her for loving at all and that is a sensitive thing for him. he doesn’t handle it better than lestat that’s not what i’m saying what i’m saying is he doesn’t have the tools to guide her through this. what he has is the desperation to not repeat what harmed him growing up. it’s after this that he decides lestat cannot be the law of the household where claudia is concerned until he realizes his approach seriously blinded him to the fact that claudia ,yes is a doomed child vampire, but she’s a doomed child vampire making decisions and her actions have serious consequences for all of them and he doesn’t have the tools to guide. he can love her through anything, but how can he of all people really guide her. this isn’t as simple as no running in the house and listen to your elders. the mother is learning her daughter is her own person (and vampire) not an extension of her and with character traits like her father too. (plus the mother has to realize that she can’t heal herself through her daughter) whew. so louis decides to step back and to let lestat be the law again and then claudia LEAVES and on her way out she challenges his decision to turn her at all (with good reason. these two vampires should not be raising a baby!!) louis is literally so distraught he wants her to come home but he can’t bring himself to go after her and bring her home. he doesn’t want to take a step!! he doesn’t want to decide. it never leads to what he thinks it will. i don’t think he believes he can trust himself to make good choices. so he loves her unconditionally on broadcast for every vampire within radio earshot to hear because that’s what he can do. thennnn she’s harmed while she’s gone and i’m sure he’s feels in a way responsible. he wanted to be her protector so badly (when actually she’s his but i’ll get to that in a bit) and wasn’t able to. and of course there’s that scene™️ in ep5 with being put in a position where he was pressured to choose between lestat and claudia and because it LOOKED like he MIGHT choose claudia and because he didn’t IMMEDIATELY choose lestat disaster ensued. that’s a lot. fuck.

and when the nature of his relationship with claudia shifts more to siblings because she’s getting older, wants more agency and claudia realizes she is also a replacement for grace, this is where the passiveness that is the result of his relationship with grace developed. bc while its true claudia takes over for grace, she is the sister to louis that grace never ever was. on top of the fact that her solution for their issues was “you’re dead to me,” grace never actually accepted and supported his queer identity truly like claudia and she definitely never protected him like claudia either (defending mama du lac in regards to paul comes to mind and also her husband being the replacement son). and louis needs and wants both those things as well as someone who won’t abandon him like grace did and he let’s claudia be them but takes it to the extreme where the last two are concerned. Louis doesn’t think he can save himself from his situation and claudia believes she can save herself and him. she isn’t gonna leave him behind. he leans into that heavily. it’s not just that he can’t and won’t make choices to get them out of their situation it’s also that he’s traumatized by his past choices and also he’s also loving lestat unconditionally as well on top of that (in the way he’s able to). i don’t think louis could see a way out like at all. he was shrouded in darkness. the best he could do was compartmentalize his love for lestat to protect himself when things were at their worst that was his flashlight in that darkness. but like when it was necessary for the success of the plan that he allow himself to love lestat fully he said if i feel it there’s no way out of this fr fr. he knew he wouldn’t make good choices. choosing lestat is the decision he will always make for better or worse. but that’s at the expense of claudia on top of choking her.

like idk we joke about his inability to make decisions but that trait in him is drenched with trauma. and his family is a huge part of why imo. i just get so upset when i think about them. i really rambled on and on here. not sure how much sense this makes but i guess this ties into my feelings about this as well. but yeah not choosing as a trauma response and not just as a way to get out of confronting his problems even tho that is a symptom. if that makes sense. idk. my brain is mash potatoes right now.

[mythsofher]

finished anne rice’s interview with the vampire (book)! here are my thoughts:

(these are extremely out of order because i’m typing them as they occur to me)

- until claudia shows up i had a haaaard time getting through it. claudia’s determination and self actualization were so so good.

- book louis is only occasionally interesting

- one of those interesting times is when he kills the priest after confessing to him. found all of that fascinating, actually

- don’t know what anyone is talking about when they talk about loumand’s connection not making sense in the book. louis thinks armand has all the answers! armand answers his questions about vampirism and philosophizes with him. armand doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about, but louis doesn’t know that. their connection felt genuine to me.

- i got the impression from iwtv book readers that is lestat is hardly ever presented sympathetically and i find that to be somewhat untrue, though maybe i just misunderstood them. after louis talks to armand he starts regretting his hate of lestat (well, he decides he hated lestat for the wrong reasons, at least.) the whiplash from his attitude towards lestat at the beginning of the story versus the end is wild.

- anyone who ever said claudia and louis relationship in the book is not weird is wrong. it’s weird. it’s very weird and not even really about the word “sensual” though that’s weird too. he makes several mentions of wanting her. i want to hit him with a car

- claudia going off on him about turning her into a vampire is beautiful

- the racism and attitude towards his slaves at the beginning is deeply hard to read. even as he says that he was judging them wrongly at the time, even in the present he says that they could tell that he and lestat were vampires because they were more in touch with the supernatural?? i fear this maybe be an anne rice problem actually, at least thats the way it came off to me. like, sure it’s totally reasonable to assume that louis, former slave owner would still be racist even 300 years removed from it but it just read. badly to me.

- armand is fascinating in this book. i know that i’m extremely biased because i already love tv armand but. listen. his stoicism in the beginning, this allusion that he’s extremely wise when really he doesn’t know what the fuck is going on. he tells louis that he’s evil, and shows it. god i’m trying to put this into words but i can’t. the way he tries to get louis to run away with him before the abduction had me gasping. i’m not sure if armand really was the one who got rid of the guards, but i could believe it i guess. and armand leaves louis!!! he leaves him!!!

- the one ☝🏻 time that i was cheering for louis is when he tells armand immediately yeah, actually you could have prevented it. you’re the coven leader, you’re the oldest, of course you could have prevented it. go off

- aaaAAah when louis tells armand he already knew that armand was the one who killed claudia. the fucking fact that armand’s upset that louis’s not upset, because at least louis would be passionate about something having to do with armand again. these aren’t thoughts, these are just me recounting the story to you but goddamn this moment was so . so!

- claudia makes me extremely sad. all she wanted was to be put first by someone. that scene where she beats the hell out of a doll. goddamn. she’s too smart to have to grace louis with her presence, unfortunately she needs him because she has the body of a five year old.

- rest in peace madeleine. i wasn’t a huge fan of you in this but whatever i’m sorry you’re dead

- oh wait speaking of. death. paul’s death in the beginning and louis imagining what would have happened if he had just told paul he believed him and spoken kindly to him genuinely had me choking up for a minute

- book daniel you hardly exist and don’t have a name. that’s all i have to say about that

-OH WAIT the fucking way claudia gets turned is crazy?? like louis tries to murder her multiple times (tries. more like tries uncontrollably) and can’t because… her heart’s too strong? she’s five. louis. she’s five! AND LESTAT LOCKS HER IN A COFFIN WHEN SHE’S STILL HUMAN. one of the most horrifying things in this whole book, genuinely.

i probably have more but this is it for now i think.

[blueiight]

Another major change is Louis and Claudia are in each others heads and have been telepathically communicating since ep4 even when things were peaceful and we can see this has an effect on Lestat in feeling left out.

Then you have Claudia's anger about her stunted life that was exposed only 5 yrs in and has its own arc here as opposed to the books where Louis is just haphazardly trying to guess why Claudia's upset for decades and it only comes out in Paris.

The decision on her part to be his sister/caretaker is completely absent in the books too like there was no violent beating so Claudia had no reason to be protective of him against Lestat. In fact it was more Louis being protective of her against Lestat's threats. Like to me the beating happening cause Louis tried to stop Lestat from hurting Claudia and her subsequent role as HIS protector completely alters the book dynamic that just simply can't be 1:1 anymore.

No matter how many violent threats book Lestat made, it just cannot compare to actually watching him beat your loved on in front of you and then spending years nursing him back to health.

a visual medium wont be 1:1 to the books, a good adaptation would necessitate a different display of similar thematic beats in the source material (verbal v. physical+ verbal abuse) AND ima add that an adaptation also has its own conversation to tell. the switcharoo of who’s the caretaker, whos protecting who book v show wise is intentional& could very well be colored by the perspectives of those telling the story. past louis saying he’ll be claudia’s knight while claudia is actually. the knight here. and show louis being far more of an agentic party in the murder plan than book louis bc of what happened to him + that long sense of mental communication he has w/ claudia here (which ive argued is a metaphor for their race b4 somewhere but i digress) than his book counterpart but modern show louis attempts to frame his involvement in the murder as ohh i was just seducing lestat while claudia did the hard work. yet hes the one who cuts lestat’s neck in the show. so! all this to say.. idk . i never argued show lestat+ claudia had the same exact relationship in the show as they did in the book, my original point is that they have similar dispositions + ways of processing their immortality which is similar in tone to their book characters

[nalyra-dreaming]

Do you think Louis will be more upset at Armand for using his mind gift to make Louis turn Madeleine? I read that part on here somewhere and considering Louis saying that was the last of his humanity leaving when he turned her, I figured he would be more upset lol I think Louis just told Armand not to do it again. 🤣 Or does Louis just not care because he’s in love. I’m really interested in that part .

Sooo, the part you're referring to is this one, right (a discussion between Armand and Louis, prior to the trial):

“ ‘But if it’s any consolation to you...surely you realize I had a hand in it.’ “ ‘That I did it to be free of Claudia, to be free to come to you... yes, I realize that. But the ultimate responsibility lies with me!’ I said. “ ‘No. I mean, directly. I made you do it! I was near you the night you did it. I exerted my strongest power to persuade you to do it. Didn’t you know this? “ ‘No!’ “I bowed my head. “ ‘I would have made this woman a vampire,’ he said softly. ‘But I thought it best you have a hand in it. Otherwise you would not give Claudia up. You must know you wanted it....’ “ ‘I loathe what I did!’ I said. “ ‘Then loathe me, not yourself.’ “ ‘No. You don’t understand. You nearly destroyed the thing you value in me when this happened! I resisted you with all my power when I didn’t even know it was your force which was working on me. Something nearly died in me! Passion nearly died in me! I was all but destroyed when Madeleine was created!’ “ ‘But that thing is no longer dead, that passion, that humanity, whatever you wish to name it. If it were not alive there wouldn’t be tears in your eyes now. There wouldn’t be rage in your voice,’ he said. “For the moment, I couldn’t answer. I only nodded. Then I struggled to speak again. ‘You must never force me to do something against my will! You must never exert such power...’ I stammered. “ ‘No,’ he said at once. ‘I must not. My power stops somewhere inside you, at some threshold. There I am powerless. However... this creation of Madeleine is done. You are free.’

I think this Louis will be more upset, yes.

However, I think the scene in the show will mirror the quoted discussion... in the break-up scene. Because Louis refuses to leave Claudia, despite Madeleine's turning. (We'll see, but I think that's this scene:)

I'm... just not sure whether it will include this admission of forcing Louis.

Because, Armand still does this in Dubai. He says: "I protect Louis from himself, always have." So maybe that admission will be something that will happen later. And the vow not to force him again never happened.

Though, tbh, it happens again in the book as well, he spell-binds Louis to leave the theater after the trial

And Armand’s eye said, Sleep.

and there is this comment from Louis later on that when Armand finally tells him that Lestat isn't dead after all that the veil that is between him and the world is suddenly thinner:

But when I heard this now from Armand it was as if the veil that protected me were thin and transparent, and though it still hung between me and the world of feeling, I perceived through it Lestat, and that I wanted to see him again. And with that spurring me on, we returned to New Orleans

So Armand obviously doesn't quite ... honor that promise as he should.

Personally I think that Armand likely kept Louis from bigger emotional outbursts. At the very least.

In the show the apology in episode 2 comes to mind, for the tear. Louis "resting" in-between. Armand coming and calming down Louis. Armand always watching.

So yes, when that falls away? When Louis will not buy into it all anymore?

I think he will be very upset. (What did Jacob say in the recent interview? Dubai would be explosive?)

Of course it will depend heavily on whether he suspected before and what the interview is actually for. Is it because he needs some kind of trump card to force Armand's hand? Or his own? Of course Daniel would be perfect for that, and of course using Daniel's relationship to Armand is a double-edged sword as well, given their history.

IF Armand did promise Louis not to force him again... then this Louis will definitely be beyond pissed when he can break free.

And, depending on what he will find when he does break free - that might be devastating for him. And then... things will likely unfold.

Given what is to come this will only be one aspect of the whole mess though and so... We'll see :). I do think the show has already hinted at all this, and I also think Jacob has done so in the last interview.

And wrt to him being in love... I do not doubt that Louis will fall for Armand, maybe even head-over-heels for a while. But that will shift, through all that happens. And a lot of things will weigh much heavier than that infatuation. The time after the trial is wrought with pain, and Louis trying to numb himself. And we have literally only had a glimpse... it will be very interesting to see what has to happen for this Louis to stay with the one who kills his daughter.

I think Jacob spilled the beans already a bit when he mentioned that Louis would choose that relationship "again" - that happens in the books as well, that Louis does go back to Armand at some point, and I do think that this is what we see in Dubai.

So no, I do not think Louis doesn't care because he's in love.

I think there's a lot more to it and I don' think they'll shy away from it^^.

[sideeffx]

Sorry this concerns ep 5 and #that scene. Had a few stray thoughts regarding it. The sentiment seems to be the entire scene was out to paint Lestat as “abusive,” which I put in quotes because I feel as if the tip over the line had happened long ago. Maybe somewhere around the time he turned Claudia but it was brewing much earlier. But I was kind of ruminating on how maybe part of it was also to establish how Louis can’t ever fully run away from his victimhood? It’s easy to justify Lestat’s gaslighting, repeated actions to get a rise out of Louis etc but it’s not easy to justify something that quite literally leaves you bedridden for an indeterminate amount of time right? And we see that this is around the time Louis becomes even more of an unreliable narrator. “Unreliable” in the sense that he makes Lestat look better than he actually is. Daniel’s snarky comments compare Louis to someone who is still in love with their abuser but I’m kind of thinking part of the retelling while it comes from a place of still loving Lestat also comes from Louis all these years still being upset at his perceived emotional weakness.

He contradicts himself multiple times in his explanation of the way he and Lestat’s relationship unravels where it seems like it was a case of him not being able to fully let go of his human nature and thus not living up to what Lestat wants but at the same time Lestat’s role as “the monster” bleeds into his interpersonal relationships so hard that his two spawn are utterly terrified of him. Notably, a lot of his lack of tiptoeing around Lestat’s more deplorable actions is specifically when Claudia is in the picture because she makes her opinions of Lestat clear and even by the end he tries to play an “ultimately she loved him too” card on Daniel. Only for it to be refuted immediately because none of that is at all consistent with Claudia’s own thoughts written on paper. Louis is still somewhat trapped in the prison of his masculinity and pride where he simply can’t admit to himself he was in a situation that left him powerless emotionally and mentally. Thus the only real “abusive” action is when he gets in a fight with Lestat that he loses miserably. The physical pain a reminder of what transpired compared to the emotional rollercoaster that Louis can choose to forget about the next day. “I am not a victim,” only said clearly once, but reminded to you through his own biased storytelling. Really he means “this was all partially my fault, for being weak.”