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abybweisse · 2 years ago

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Correction:

Agni can mimic Sebastian's moves (as a "mere" butler) even without using the Right Hand of Kali. In ch17, Agni doesn't even unwrap the bandages from his right hand, but he has no difficulty in keeping up and mimicking/mirroring Sebastian's moves.

This is a parallel to Prince Poo (yes... I know) in Mother2; the prince can mirror any enemy except perhaps bosses. You could say that, like this, Prince Poo is a parallel to Agni and Prince Soma combined, but only when Agni is following orders or protecting his prince (and personal god). Funny thing about Soma and Agni (as Prince Poo) is that Agni is always making Indian/Bengali foods, and the only time I see Soma eating traditional British cuisine is when Agni prepares it. Sebastian has to make curries (also not really Indian, but that's another matter) for Soma to eat what he makes. This parallels how Prince Poo only regains a significant amount of energy/health when you give him "eastern foods".

Anyway, in ch18, Agni goes into samadhi to fight Sebastian (with the deer head and while carrying Soma), and Sebastian's best option is to just keep out of the way of Agni's attacks... which absolutely wreck Harold West's belongings and home.

So when Agni goes into samadhi to protect Soma (his master, his god) and still can't best the enemy -- can't even mirror him -- you know that's a very strong enemy... like a boss fight.

In ch 129,soma said that he saw THEM,and couldnt possibly mistake who thay are,does that mean that soma knows who polaris is too? Or maybe ot's just a mistranslation

Whom does Soma see?

Sounds like you were reading a fan translation, because here's the licensed English translation:

"I saw it as clear as day!" With "it" meaning the gun, the shooter, etc. What was directly in his face. "That is one face I would never mistake for another." Meaning the shooter and only the shooter. Because Soma is staring back at the gun and the person pointing the gun.

He's so completely sure the shooter is our earl because he never looked at the photo pieces handed to him by Agni; he still doesn't know in that scene that there are twins. Either real Ciel wears an eye patch just to make Soma think it's our earl... or Soma is too shocked to realize the shooter isn't wearing an eyepatch.

As far as Polaris is concerned, it's like he was hardly even there. Soma could hardly register much of anything about "Knife Dude" and probably just assumed Polaris is Sebastian. They are probably of similar height and build.

It seems to me that Polaris doesn't necessarily come inside at the same time as real Ciel. Because Agni looks like he wasn't even expecting this second person to attack. Real Ciel retreats as Polaris says he will take care of the rest. If Polaris' voice can also be confused for Sebastian's, then even more reason to think that Polaris is a dude and was once a butler for the Phantomhives. But, then again, I don't think Soma was being nearly as observant as he thinks he was, and, sadly, we can't ask Agni his own assessment of the attackers.

If Agni was paying attention (and he probably was), then he'd probably have said the shooter looked like our earl but wasn't wearing an eyepatch. He might have even taken note of the shooter's hair parting on the opposite side. Heck, Agni might have even noticed the shooter wasn't wearing the Phantomhive "blue candy" ring or the signet ring. And for "Knife Dude"? Agni might have noticed two major things:

This guy has half his face under a hood, so whoever this is, they want to be anonymous -- Sebastian wouldn't even bother to do something like that, particularly if he were truly with his own master.

This guy doesn't fight the same way Sebastian does -- Agni can mimic Sebastian's fighting style while under the samadhi of the Right Hand of Kali, which he uses against this "Knife Dude", but to no avail.

Therefore, Agni would definitely know he's not losing this battle to Sebastian... and he probably realizes that shooter isn't our earl but the twin in the torn/burnt-edged photo. But Agni isn't able to convey any of that information to Soma beyond handing him the bits of photo... which Soma apparently never looks at.

And so, Soma doesn't actually know who the attackers are; he just makes an assumption. The only reason Soma has any cause to think it's our earl and Sebastian is the warning our earl gave for them to get out of his business and leave.

It's a parallel to the misunderstanding that makes Pokey Minch become Ness's sworn enemy in Mother2 (and that animosity carries over to when he's King Porky and antagonizing Lucas in Mother3).

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petalsonfacesnovinesthough · 2 years ago

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Hot take: Gamzee Makara is partially inspired by Porky/Pokey Minch. I have evidence of... Something!

(Please be known that Porky will be used for Mother 2, and Pokey for EarthBound. Same character, different name in translation. For facts that apply to both, the original name will be used.)

((Also, I will be starting with the HomeStuck facts, then EarthBound.))

1. Best Friend of The Protagonist

The first troll we, as readers, control is Karkat Vantas. The EveryMan of Alternia. His best friend, the next troll we control, is Gamzee, and he's very vocal about his relationship with the Troll of the Crab.

As for both Minchs, he is stated to be Ness' best friend through NPC Dialogue, but for obvious reasons, Ness doesn't say it out right. Porky does.

2. Abusive Homelife

All trolls are supposed to be raised by a lusus, developing a symbiotic relationship. Of course, with all parents, not all are stellar. Gamzee's lusus, a seagoat, should be near the hive. He rarely is, though, thus leaving Gamzee neglected, which lead to the Goatfish Troll abusing Soporifics, due to not being guided against eating sopor slime.

Porky, is stuck under a different kind of abuse, depending on the translation. In EarthBound, it's verbal abuse, which both Pokey and his brother Picky live with. However, in Mother 2, Porky and Picky are physically abused, being hit by their dad rather than told off for running off.

3. Connection to The Main Evil of Their Story

Gamzee's one of the most tied-up characters in HS's giant time loop, being a fourth of the big bad of the comic, Lord English, leading to Gamzee's killing of Equius.(Nepeta was probably not in LE's plan)

After Ness finishes up in Onett, he heads off to Twoson, and by extension Happy-Happy Village, finding The Happy-Happiests, led by Mr. Carpainter, and Porky, influenced by The Mani-Mani Statue, the physical representation of Giygas's corruptive power, which follows the boy all the to the end of the game.

4. Still Wanting a Connection with their Friend

The nail in the coffin that ended Murderstuck was stopping Gamzee. In doing so, Karkat stepped in as leader and calmed him down, creating a moiraillegiance between the two trolls.

Once Mr. Carpainter is defeated, all the Happy-Happiests wake up, including Porky. However, his thoughts on it change based on translation. Pokey asks for forgiveness, but it turns out he's lying. Porky however, is perfectly earnest. But, since Ness is a silent protagonist, he doesn't answer. Either way, he runs off.

5. Washed Brain... Big Time

So, once Gamzee comes across Lil' Cal, he stares right into LE'S soul and gets hijacked, continuing the time loop, never being in control of himself for the rest of the comic aside from one panel.

Remember how I said Giygas had a corruptive power? Well, it also affects Porky. He joins The Mani-Mani Statue in venturing to Fourside, manipulating Monotoli into kidnapping Paula again. After Ness and Jeff catch up with him, he steals the helicopter and disappears until the final boss fight, joining Giygas. He even goes from general clothes, to a suit, to the tell-tale sign of a human under Giygas' control; his skin turns blue.

6. Unkillable

Due to the time loop, Gamzee's destiny is to die in the final fight between the human kids and Caliborn. Until then, he can't die. Like, at all. He gets shot, and still lives. He gets kicked off a cliff, and lives. You just can't kill the clown.

Porky, due to being a child, can't die. Due to escaping at the end, and becoming immortal in Mother 3/hiding in the Absolutely Safe Capsule, he will never die.

So, now that I've laid out all my evidence, go ahead and think on it. Perhaps I'll change some minds. And yes, I'm a Gamzee apologist.

#theory #earthbound #homestuck #gamzeemakara #porkyminch

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incorrectsmashbrosquotes · 4 years ago

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Wow, so Ganondorf has his own Black Ops team? That's cool. Is there any way we can get a little more info about the other Hounds members?

- Liquid Snake (Metal Gear Solid):Enslaved by Ganondorf using his own Nanomachines, Liquid is sort of an unofficial leader of the team and will go to brutal lengths to keep them in line.

- Porky Minch (Earthbound/Mother): Enslaved using Dark Magic, Porky is less of a front lines fighter and more produces terrible and dark weapons for the other Hounds.

- Nightmare (Soul Calibur): The only willing recruit of the Hounds, Nightmare is firefly loyal to Ganondorf for his unrelenting power and unstoppable will. He is Ganondorf’s will on the team.

- Frank Fontaine/Atlas (Bioshock): Trapped in his monstrous form by Ganon’s dark magic, Frank serves Ganondorf out of a promise to one day restore his humanity. It will never be fulfilled.

- Vaas Montenegro (Far Cry): Technically enslaved by Ganondorf, Vaas serves the Dark Lord more for the fun of it than anything else. While far from the most physically powerful of the Hounds, Vaas is certainly one of the most ruthless and sadistic.

- Adria (Diablo): Tricked into believing she’s serving Diablo once more, Adria provides support from behind the more melee inclined Hounds. Her magic is no less deadly than one of Nightmare’s blows.

- Validar (Fire Emblem): Not actually a member of the team, Validar acts as a liaison between Ganondorf and the Hounds. If Nightmare is his will than Validar is his voice. It is from him that the Hounds get their orders.

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utopianparadoxist · 6 years ago

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PROTECT KARAKO oh also some lore thoughts i guess

oh no i love this tiny little clown boy ;_; hes so good. OK theres a lot to talk about so lets start. big time spoilers below

Classpect:

The bottom line is I tentatively agree with the take that Karako’s a Lord of Mind, though Page seems like a plausible runner-up guess. Lord makes a fair bit of sense to me. There’s some obvious connections--Karako somehow ended up with a gold tooth, mirroring Caliborn’s.

Karako’s most emphasized attribute is his youth, Caliborn is identified by his eternal immaturity, and Porky Minch and Bastian (the two characters who most seem to infliuence Caliborn’s Lord status) are also either defined by an inability to grow up, or deal with a possible failure to do so, respectively.

And Karako does seem to operate pretty much off instinct, much like Caliborn. That the Reader is left to carry on his will to punish the Horror-Terrors is particularly compelling--the Reader has to make the CHOICE (Mind) to follow Karako into death, and getting onto the carousel is their reward for doing so.

As an ask pointed out back when we were talking about Boldir, we might expect circles to pop up in relation to Lords as well as spirals, and indeed circles pop up with Karako in several ways. His symbol contains a circle, and the dog tag his symbol is printed on is a gold circle itself. @wakraya also pointed out the cans can be seen as Tallcircles which seems like a stretch but still, worth noting.

But the most interesting circle in the Sim is definitely the Carousel. What we’ve got here is a circle, a wheel, that spins endlessly, always pulling the horses that exist within it around and around. They’re bound to the wheel, stuck in it.

Much like everyone who exists in the circle of LE’s causality. I think this has its roots in LE’s nature as a Demiurge, and so a direct offspring of “Abraxas”, the abstract God that we could see as Paradox Space itself.

Abraxas is always depicted with twin snakes pulling in different directions, and in this notable depiction, the snakes themselves are pulling/guiding horses along.

To me, this evokes Caliborn and Calliope exerting their twin influences on the narrative, with the horses representing individuals living under their influence.

Whether it’s a psychic projection of Karako’s or some kind of afterlife (and we’ll come back to that question soon), the Carousel seems like a pretty succint presentation of the Mirthful Messiah’s entire Lord English-centric religion.

We’ve got the conflicting tragic/comic masks, Gamzee raising Caliborn (red sun, green background) and Callie (green sun, red background), and of course a wheel/circle that many horses are bound to.

Its interesting to note that this makes it pretty clear that the Mirthful Messiah was a seperate and distinct figure from Callie and Caliborn in the cult’s doctrine--it is specifically Gamzee, not the cherubs or LE’s later incarnations.

Of course, Callie isn’t really being worshipped here--the carousel is an altar to LE, not Abraxas.

Yaldabaoth was real big on being known as the “one true god”, and being himself unaware of the higher orders of God who created him. It’s unsurprising that his cult would be lacking that higher-order imagery, and would place its highest emphasis on the symbol of LE’s looping dominion.

The Dream version of the Dark Carnival that Meenah and (Vriska) visit in the dreambubbles is empty and lacks the historical frills describing Gamzee and Callie, but the religion’s most important symbol, the Circle/Carousel, remains. That’s the most prominent recurring memory.

(Aside: This might answer why horses are so ironic--horses bound/stuck to a wheel are a prominent symbol of LE’s dominance, and free horses running as they please are a suitable undermining of his symbolism.)

(Aside x2 combob: Akio Ohtori from Revolutionary Girl Utena is a Yaldabaoth figure quite similar to Caliborn, and his power/dominion too ends up being depicted through carousels. Chalk it up to shared gnostic symbolism I guess, but still, odd coincidence.)

Back to Karako.

Its worth noting that coming into conflict with highbloods/high class members of troll society was one of the few things we were expecting from Karako-it fits the motif of his Joker Card--oh yeah, a bunch of the purplebloods in Hiveswap seem to match Joker Cards from the ICP’s albums in their designs:

“ The first Joker's Card, Carnival of Carnage (1992), is a representation of the ghetto and the violence that occurs within. It takes the form of a traveling carnival which doles out the same brutality on those who have ignored the inner cities' cries for help. The Card issues a warning against the upper-class and government's negligence toward the lower classes.”

So yeah. That line of inquiry seems to be checking out so far. Really there’s a bunch of parallels between Juggalore and the Mirthful Messiah cult/LE in general, but I happen to know someone else is working on that, so I’ll leave it there for now.

Now to what is to me, the most interesting part: the vision of the carousel itself.

There are two possibilities here, I think:

1) This is a psychic projection Karako’s putting out in his dying moments. Its a quick vision meant to provide some small moments of comfort before they die. 2) I think more likely, we’re getting a glimpse into how death works in Paradox Space, absent dreambubbles. It seems likely to me that this is a dark carnival afterlife created by the collective unconscious of Alternia and, specifically, it’s fervent cult of Mirthful Messiahs.

Karako was led to it because he’s part of the group that collective consciousness recognizes--ie: it’s likely a burgundy would be rejected as one who doesn’t belong, or led somewhere different in Alternia’s collective consciousness. The MSPA Reader was recognized because Karako recognized them, specifically, and was able to extend his afterlife’s promise to his friend.

Either way, we have no way to know and there’s more interesting questions. I’m struck by the fact that considering this is a promised afterlife of spiritual fulfillment, the vision we see is distinctly non-spiritual--in fact, it’s deliberately artificial.

There are angels, but they’re mannequin props strung up by string. There are happy inhabitants, but they are also mannequins made of wood. It’s like a theatrical parody of an afterlife, depicting the physical presence of holy attendants and subjects, but not the spiritual/magical influence that makes them true.

Basically, it’s a very Rage-y afterlife--it’s theatrical, it’s artificial, and above all it’s physical, not spiritual or magical. It all reminds me very much of the concept of “Maya” from various Indian philosophies--including Hinduism, from which we got the name “Makara” for Gamzee.

How Maya is treated by different cultures varies, but the basic gist is of a magical power of illusions, of creating real, physical/material things that don't actually reflect spiritual reality. To quote wikipeds:

Māyā connotes a "magic show, an illusion where things appear to be present but are not what they seem".

Māyā is also a spiritual concept connoting "that which exists, but is constantly changing and thus is spiritually unreal", and the "power or the principle that conceals the true character of spiritual reality".

The thing is that according to this framework, basically all of physical existence, or at least quite a lot of it, is ultimately Maya and thus illusionary. Physical existence is might or might not be “real”, but it is constantly changing, and so does not reflect spiritual, eternal truth.

Māyā is the empirical reality that entangles consciousness. Māyā has the power to create a bondage to the empirical world, preventing the unveiling of the true, unitary Self—the Cosmic Spirit also known as Brahman.

I’ve suspected for a long time that at its core, the nature of Chucklevoodoo/Rage powers stem from an ability to manipulate the experience of Maya.

Chucklevoodos employ illusions that are physically real (the Jack Noir doll in John’s room, or Dave’s dream copy of Lil Cal), and inspire people to be afraid/paranoid/angry--binding them to their physical experiences of the world.

Enlightenment in these Maya-centric frameworks generally means becoming one with these eternal principles of spiritual truth, and thus moving away from Maya/physical reality and the fear/confusion it produces.

So here’s the thing: That’s pretty much exactly what the MSPA Reader begins to experience after Karako is killed.

They come into awareness of the fact that everything they’ve been experiencing on Alternia, everything about Paradox Space, is kind of profoundly unreal.

Which it is! Because its just a story being told to us, the players. They seem to become very aware of this unreal/illusionary nature to their own existence and that of the world of the Friendsim.

And instead of continuing to treat it as real/something to be afraid of, the Reader chooses to stand up for moral virtues, generate them into the world themselves.

And as they move on from the illusionary world of Alternia, they’re rewarded by becoming aware of an eternal, universal, spiritual truth:

Friendship.

Of course, the MSPA Reader is still on their path. If they’re going to keep up this metatextual evolution and eventually reach enlightenment, coming to understand the true nature of their own existence, then there’s a lot more to learn. (Here’s hoping Lanque will teach them (and us) something about Astrology, Alchemy, and Aspects.)

What I’m wondering is, how much longer before they start becoming aware of the part of their reality that is well and truly outside of the visible realm? How much longer before the MSPA Reader becomes aware of us?

#Karako Pierot #Karako #Hiveswap Friendsim #Hiveswap #MSPA Reader #Lord of Mind #Page of Mind #Rage #Maya #Illusions #Theater #Mirthful Messiahs #Lord/Muse #classpect #My MSPA Analysis

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