#littlefinger must die

[jackoshadows]

A tale of two marriages.

The vast difference in how Jon Snow deals with the marriages of Arya and Sansa Stark has already been mentioned. However, I noticed there are also other differences in the overall narrative as well.

First, two Kings - Robb Stark and Stannis Baratheon - refer to and use Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion to affirm that Sansa will never get Winterfell while positing that Jon Snow should be Lord of Winterfell.

“Young, and a king,” he said. “A king must have an heir.  If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north  would pass to her.” His mouth tightened. “To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north.” - Robb Stark, ASoS

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa."

"Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father's seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow." - Stannis Baratheon, ADwD

In contrast, two Kings - Mance Rayder and Stannis Baratheon - are trying to save Arya Stark from her marriage to Ramsay Bolton for Jon Snow.

He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis - Jon, ADwD

Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl. - Jon, ADwD

It’s interesting that Stannis has this ‘tender sentiment’ while vowing that Sansa will never get Winterfell considering that Arya too is married to his enemy Ramsay Bolton. Maybe he intends for Ramsay Bolton to be dead soon which would free Arya to make other alliances. Or maybe he hates the Lannisters more than the Boltons.

Additionally there is no other mention of the Sansa/Tyrion marriage in the Northern context, no Northern houses or lords who bring it up, no secret plotting that revolves around this marriage. In contrast Arya’s marriage to Ramsay is mentioned in the four corners of the North, from the Wall to Winterfell, from Deepwood Motte to White Harbor and is a driving force for many of the characters’ actions and plotting. It’s more important in terms of ‘The North Remembers’ and Northern uprising against the Lannisters in King’s Landing, the Freys and the Boltons considering it revolves around Lady Arya Stark present in Winterfell.

This is why - as GRRM has pointed out in interviews - Arya’s marriage to Ramsay is a necessary and important book plot.

Unintentionally. A little change in a long narrative can have big changes further on. You know, when we remove Jeyne Poole from season one, then you don’t have Jeyne Poole to be the fake Arya, as happens in the book. So what do you do then? The butterfly effect has done that.

It’s not Jeyne Poole’s marriage to Ramsay Bolton that is driving all these mini subplots in the North.Yes, it’s sad that no one would care if Ramsay married Jeyne just like no one cared that Jeyne got send off to the brothels while Sansa was a high value hostage of the Lannisters. Just like no one cared about Jeyne’s story in the books until the show replaced her with Sansa and suddenly there were discussions about rape in the series.

GRRM: I was trying to set up Jeyne for her future role as the false Arya.   The real Arya has escaped and is presumed dead.  But this girl has been in Littlefinger's control for years, and he's been training her.  She knows Winterfell, has the proper northern accent, and can pose as Arya. Who the hell knows what a little girl you met two years ago looks like?  When your a lord visiting Winterfell, are you going to pay attention to the little kids running around?  So she can pull off the impersonation.  Not having Jeyne, they used Sansa for that.  Is that better or worse?  You can make your decision there.  Oddly, I never got pushback for that in the book because nobody cared about Jeyne Poole that much.  They care about Sansa.

In the books, it’s Arya marriage that has two kings trying to save her, the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch breaking sworn oaths, the Mountain clans and Northern houses marching with Stannis for the Ned’s precious little girl. They all think that’s Arya Stark in Winterfell. Arya may not be physically there, but it’s the marriage of Arya Stark in Winterfell in front of the Heart Tree, being given away by kin, Theon Greyjoy, that’s being used to hold the North and lend legitimacy to Ramsay Bolton as Lord of Winterfell.

[jonsnowunemploymentera]

Others: the gentle giant (Hodor), Frankenstein and his monster (Qyburn and Robert Strong), the mentor/father must die (Ned Stark)

Put anything else in tags :)

[scientistservant]

I have never heard of the Dark Crystal until I saw your posts. What is it about, and what do you like about it?

Oh ho?

Sit down, anon, and let me tell you the tale of... The Dark Crystal.

*theme music plays*

In a world called Thra, there exists a powerful gem called the Crystal of Truth. It is in tune to all of Thra, including the planet's most civilized race, the Gelfling.

A thousand years ago, new beings came to Thra: the Skeksis. The Skeksis, wise, hedonistic and benevolent, were tasked with protecting the Crystal of Truth by Thra's avatar/mother-nature of sorts, Mother Aughra. Because of their wisdom the Skeksis also ruled over the Gelfling and their seven Clans, while Aughra journeyed the stars and space.

But one day, the Crystal cracked, causing the Crystal to become corrupted, and a miasma, the Darkening, to spread throughout Thra. In an attempt to fix the Crystal, the Skeksis discovered Essence - the soul or life-force of every creature on Thra. Instead of taking life from the Crystal, they decided to take life from something else - the Gelfling. Because the Gelfling are the closest creatures to Thra, their Essence is pure, more potent.

The Skeksis became obsessed with Essence, and obsessed with draining Gelfling, killing them and drinking their Essence to obtain eternal life and youthfulness. All Skeksis, but the Emperor especially, were terrified of death. For when Skeksis die they do not return to Thra.

And so, a genocide occurred, and all Gelfling perished.

All but one. For there was a prophecy, told of a young Gelfling named Jen, who is destined to heal the Crystal and bring the Skeksis reign to an end!

What I love about The Dark Crystal is its world-building and characters. Its cast isn't just black and white in morality, it's more than that. The protagonists can make mistakes, and so can the antagonists. The Skeksis were good once upon a time, they once cared about the Gelfling, but their greed and fear of death overtook them. Thra is beautiful with many different settings and wildlife, even the Castle of the Crystal is gorgeous with it's fantastical and alien gothic architecture.

I'm mainly talking about the prequel series, Age of Resistance, here. It was made almost 40 years after the original 1982 film, but unlike many modern sequels and prequels it's not a cash grab at all; it was made with love and respect to the original, expanding on the world of Thra. Not saying the original film was bad, it's a wonderful piece of media! I just think it's lacking a bit in world-building and context, and Age of Resistance helps immensely.

As for characters, I'll be talking about the Skeksis, Gelfling, and Mother Aughra. There are other characters and creatures too, but I don't want to venture into spoiler territory!

The Skeksis

As I said above, the Skeksis are not from Thra. They are reptile-like alien vultures with a very hedonistic lifestyle. They adore food, various forms of entertainment, the most lavish of robes, and being praised for their wisdom and status as Lords of the Crystal.

Each Skeksis has a title and role they must uphold. For example, the Ornamentalist makes his fellow Lords' robes and decor for the Castle, while the Scroll-Keeper is in charge of the Castle library and keeps records of tomes and scrolls going back a thousand years of Skeksis rule.

All the Skeksis are important and unique, but the most popular and well-known by far is the Chamberlain. He has a "whimper" as a tic and speaks in slight broken English, yet is the craftiest, manipulative, and cunning of the Skeksis. A very Starscream/Littlefinger-type character, he's fantastic to watch. (He's one of my favourite characters, but not my top favourite, that honour goes to the Scroll-Keeper.)

The Gelfling

The Gelfling are small, elf-like humanoids that vary in looks, culture and skill between their seven different species/Clans. There is the Stonewood, Vapran, Drenchen, Spriton, Dousan, Sifan, and Grottan. Unfortunately, many Gelfling tend to be xenophobic and untrustworthy towards other Clans, though some do manage to become friends despite their differences. Most Gelfling are also illiterate, but there are a very small few that can read and write.

Gelfling are the closest beings to Thra, and have the special ability to Dreamfast with one another - a rather intimate gesture that allows them to share their memories and thoughts by touching hands.

They also differ between genders; female Gelfling have wings, while male Gelfling do not.

Because of their small noses and large eyes and ears, some of the fandom tend to call Gelfling "fairy mice", even giving them whiskers and tails!

Mother Aughra

Mother Aughra is Thra, and Thra is Mother Aughra. She is as old as the planet itself, and perhaps as old as the Crystal of Truth, too. She is connected to the Crystal, able to tell when it is healthy and when it is not.

She and the Skeksis used to be friends, admiring their wisdom and beauty, yet that all ended when she discovered what they had done to the Crystal of Truth.

Aughra is sassy and somewhat grumpy, yet she loves and cares for all the creatures of Thra, especially the Gelfling, who see her as a mother-figure. She has the ability to remove her one eye and use it to spy on others or to see things up close, even from far away.

If you enjoy the fantasy genre, puppets, practical effects, and alien worlds, I highly, highly recommend The Dark Crystal and The Dark Crystal Age of Resistance! There are also graphic novels, and YA novels by J.M Lee.

The world of Thra must never die!

[agentrouka-blog]

Dany fan here: I think other Dany fans think Jonsas are over the top with Dany hate because of pol!Jon. I follow many Jonsas because I’m perfectly fine with Jonsa. It’s not for me but I see the vision. That said I’m a bit of an unusual Dany fan in the sense that I’m a big fan of the Meereenese Knot essays and think the interpretation of Dany presented there is pretty spot on. I personally think Dany has a good heart but that circumstance and experience and terrible coping mechanisms have led her to act in villainous ways and whether or not a character is a villain is determined by their actions regardless of whatever goodness is in their heart. But anyway I do not like the pol!Jon theory. I think it’s out of character for Jon and needlessly cruel to Dany. I think it’s possible that he ultimately kills her and that could be fine and I don’t reject that theory, but I think the idea of Jon deceiving and sexually abusing Dany and then killing her for the sake of Sansa is what Dany fans think of when they think of over the top hate because they assume every Jonsa shipper also believes in pol!Jon.

I do understand why people thought Jon was deceiving Dany in the show though because their relationship was just so poorly executed and Kit and Emilia had no chemistry on screen. Imagine fucking up your show’s romance so badly that people think the script confirming that the love was mutual must have been tampered with.

Hi there!

(I think Dany is a compelling tragic villain, and it's lovely seeing someone loving her for it!)

I do think that pol!Jon (under duress, esentially) is a not unreasonable theory that grew out of the way the show presented their relationship. If there was sexual abuse I think it's fair to say it was in the hands of the more powerful party, though.

That said, I don't see it happening that way in the books at all and I think all characters will be better off for it. I agree it wouldn't feel right.

Certainly not in a punitive "you thought he would love you but he really loves Sansa, now die!!!" way. That cheapens jonsa as much as it cheapens the complexity of the conflict between Dany and Jon.

It's just a deeply uninteresting way to explore their existing conflict or their respective strengths. Not to be a hater but it's not exactly riveting literature watching Dany be manipulated by Daario and it's unlikely to be more so in a repeat performance with Jon who isn't even her type. Same as watching Jon go through a repeat of the abusive Ygritte plotline would be less than compelling.

We'll have instances of romantic manipulation. Littlefinger is practically begging Sansa to use his own obsession against him, and Arya gives us a preview when she lures Raff to his death wearing "Mercy's" face. That's been set up since the first book, and it works as a satisfying response to the way everyone has been telling Sansa how weak and simple she is. It's very personal, very steeped in their respective histories, very poetic.

But for Jon and Dany I think we can expect something more universal and even-handed than that. They are both at varying points manipulative and earnest, highly clever or unexpectly outmaneuvered. And neither will be in this conflict all alone and without advice. Not to mention, we have both of their POVs and watching one just miss all the clues of the other manipulating them would be flat. This only ever works with one POV withheld. The show tried that with Jon Snow live on the screen, to disastrous results. No way is that GRRM's plan.

I'd rather watch two clever adversaries play a big game of chess. And given GRRM's love for that game, I am certain it's also what he would prefer to write.

[hell-heron]

So. Nedbert Timeline. Especially good shippy moments/fanfic hooks highlighted

(sources: A search of ice and fire, A wiki of ice and fire, this fanmade timeline for some travel times)

262 - Robert born, around the middle/later part of the year probably. Brandon born, a little earlier the same year

263 - Ned is born

264 - Stannis is born, earlier in the year. Rickard visits KL but I wanna say doesn't bring the babes? But possibly that's when the fostering is decided if he had occasion to meet Steffon also

266 - Lyanna is born, late in the year, I really want her to be 15 at Harrenhal lmaooo

268 - Benjen is born (canonically have a similar age difference to Arya and Bran which I believe is 18 months) . Robert and Stannis visit court with their father, which would have made perrrrrfect sense as a stop on the way to the Eyrie where Robert was left with Jon at KL and Stannis went home with dad, but nooo. Couldn't have it.

271/272 - Ned and probably also Robert begin their fostering at the Eyrie. Meh. It's late fall or, if 272, the beginning of a "terrible cruel" winter, btw, great time to do this journey to the mountains. Great job making safe choices for these children, Rickard, Steffon and GRRM. Anyhow GRRM stated both boys were able to visit home during this time and divided their time between home and the Eyrie freely after turning 16. During this time, they also engaged in an orange fight in the great hall of the Eyrie

277 - Renly is born

278 - Cassana and Steffon leave early in the year to find a bride for Rhaegar. Robert turns 16 and goes home. Probably about the end of the year, Cassana and Steffon die in a shipwreck in the waters of Storm's End on their return.

279 - Rhaegar and Elia betrothed. Robert abandons lordship and young brothers to go straight back to the Eyrie and conceives Mya (he must be 16/early 17 as according to Ned he was younger than Mya is in AGOT, love these riddles). Note that I can't imagine Robert right now gleefully embarking on a ship, at least not from Storm's End, and KL-Vale is like two months' journey by land according to Tyrion's movements. He really peaced out of there fast. Possibly Ned is absent/has also gone briefly home for his majority? The winter also begins here around mid-year

280 - Wedding of Rhaegar and Elia which may or may not be attended by the Vale gang. Mya is born. By this time both boys are back in the Eyrie as Ned held Mya as a babe. Princess Rhaenys is born in the last quarter of the year also.

(some point between 280-281) : Ned visits Winterfell where Robert and Lyanna's betrothal is announced and they have the conversation about Mya and Robert's faithfulness

281 - Tourney of Harrenhal. Ned states he "came down from the Eyrie" to go there. This is in the third quarter of the year according to vibes I get. False spring lasts less than two months, in the last quarter of the year it's winter again. In the last month of the year, Aegon Is born.

282 - In the first month of the year, Rhaegar vanishes with Lyanna. Around the same time, Littlefinger and Brandon duel with all the drama that is involved. The Cat/Brandon wedding is probably scheduled around the second/third month but we know that doesn't happen. All this time however Ned appears to be in the Vale pointedly not attending 👀👀. Brandon and Rickard die. Various drama in the Vale with Ned and Robert going home to raise their hosts. Do Mya's vague memories of Robert work with her being two years old when she last saw him?? Anyhow. Ned and Robert spend the rest of the year apart to raise their banners and for the latter fight at Summerhall and Ashford

283 - Largely using the wiki at this point bc twoiaf says The Trident was in 282 and just no. Spring probably begins at some point this year. At some point between late 282 and early 283 Robert is wounded, hides at the Peach and conceives Bella. Ned and Hoster Tully arrive to save his ass. Battle of the Bells. Ned and Jon's wedding to Lysa and Cat, all within the first couple months of the year I believe based on Robb's nameday. Battle of the Trident - Robert is once again wounded (by Rhaegar??) so Ned goes to assault KL alone. At this point it's decided Robert will be king. The sack has to be within about a year of the start of the war, so first half of the year? Robert reaches the city, pardons are made, Ned is horrified by Robert's reaction to Aegon and Rhaenys's deaths. Ned leaves to interrupt the siege of Storm's End and do the Tower of Joy stuff.

284 - By this point it's summer. Stannis's assault of Dragonstone. Robert marries Cersei. DOES NED ATTEND THAT WEDDING? Canon says Lyanna's death reconciles them after their fight about the the Targaryen babies, so they saw each other after the Tower of Joy. Would Ned really bring Jon to KL, even if hidden? Did he send him home with Howland and went to Winterfell himself only later? Cat does say by the time she reached Winterfell "Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence" though also that "Ned brought Jon home with him". All this, btw, taking in account all the travel times, implies a Robb possibly 1 year old being able to walk and talk by the time he first saw his father, with relative disruption of bonding and possible struggle for Cat to get him to accept this strange man initially, all while she's in agony over Jon... take notes, NedCat week participants!

(it's not known whether Robert and Ned had any occasions to meet again in this 5 year span. A winter comes and goes sometime in this period)

289 - Greyjoy rebellion. Seems to have been spring/later summer. Ned and Robert are together for the siege and assult of Pyke. Unknown whether Ned also attends the tourney of Lannisport or any further celebrations. As we know Robert chooses to celebrate the happy reunion by immediately renewing Ned's child murder trauma from their last argument by giving him his own child hostage <3 unknown whether that was Robert's idea or Ned's ofc but I prefer the first personally.

292/293 - Seems to have involved a visit of Cat and Ned to the south as Cat recalls meeting 5 years ago Lysa and infant Sweetrobin and Ned recalls seeing Tommen during his breastfeeding years, however he claims to not have seen Robert after the Greyjoy rebellion. Interesting choice, could def use some fic and fanwanking. At this point Robb's 9, Sansa 6, Arya 3/4, Bran 2 - Joffrey 6, Myrcella 2, Tommen 1 - Theon 13 - Sweetrobin around 1 too but a few months younger than Tommen, to give an idea.

298 - Robert's visit, we know what happens

[ihaveastorminme]

Joseph Lorusso, Soft Eyes

“I can have Baelish arrested.” 

Her eyes were drawn to him by force of fear. “No. He’d have them all killed.” 

“Then he would certainly die.” Jon countered. “I can get him to tell me where he’s keeping them, Sansa.” 

“He will not.” She was sure of it. 

He tilted his head a fraction to the side, as if to tug her into a memory they shared, something she should already know. “There are ways to get answers out of people, lady.”

“I well remember.” Sansa shook her head. “But Littlefinger is a man to anticipate such solutions. I would, if it were me. I'd have a dozen people watching my mark. I'd have standing orders to bring the prisoners back in pieces; one for every one of my bruises.”

His jaw clenched, a muscle to the side of his temple flexed with the tension of it. but he did not deny the truth of it.

“You must be ready to defend your position in the council. He will move against you; already he has stacked the deck in your disfavor - that little piece of theatre with Corbray was no accident and neither was Harry insulting you, forcing your hand into a violent confrontation. The only thing that remains to be seen is how all of it fits together.” 

“If he does not suspect I am helping you, then why do you think he will move against me?”

Sansa shrugged. Why did Littlefinger do anything? “Self-preservation, at the very least, if what you suspect about the slave trade is true,” Sansa admitted. Then she said what was harder to admit, and still no less true. “And because any measure of my favor is enough to want you dead.”

how ruthless are the gentle -

[ichooseviolence]

I've been mulling over the idea of Sansa or Tyrion, or both, seeking out an annulment. Many people brush it aside and assume it's impossible or simply too difficult. I'm the silly, goofy type of person who believes there is a possibility. It would, of course, be very challenging at this point in the story, which is why I think it is possible in the future. A shift in power could make a difference. But I'm interested in your thoughts here.

According to GRRM, neither Tyrion nor Sansa would need to be present to annul their marriage, but at least one must request it. Unless Tyrion manages to find out and somehow objects, Sansa shouldn't be faced with too many challenges (under normal circumstances, of course). Of course, the more power and influence you have, the easier it will be. With the aid of Littlefinger, or anyone else with more influence, it just might be possible. Depending on who is acting High Septon, bribery would be an option. Although, as of now, Littlefinger shows no interest in going for an annulment and for sound reasons. As long as the Lannisters are still in power, Sansa will remain a wanted fugitive. So for now, he's relying on the death of Tyrion (so he says.)

Reasons for annulments:

Non-consummation

Marriage was forced

Crazy scenario where Tysha is alive and makes an appearance, and the "annulment" made by Tywin is proven to have not been legal. (Thought it was crazy at first, but someone explained to me why this would be a very real possibility, given the writing style of George.)

I'll say now, I think #2 could possibly be turned down by The High Septon or Council (even though it would require basic common sense to understand she was forced), and #3 would only be plausible if the Tysha theory were true. Obviously, the first option is our greatest one.

Non-consummated marriages that were dissolved/annulled:

Lancel and Amerei: Lancel joins the Warrior's Sons

Baelor and Daena

(am I forgetting any?)

Non-consummation is the main factor of their annulment. Of course, we all know that Tyrion and Sansa never consummated their marriage, and it was becoming common knowledge throughout the Red Keep. Proof of non-consummation is never suggested or hinted at. I would be surprised if a request for annulment was dismissed simply because a maiden's hymen is no longer intact, especially if she is not required to be present. I assume even Septons would be aware that a hymen could break from other activities, however difficult it may be. Basically, I think they would need more confirmation than that to rule it out. Note that non-consummation may not be the only ground for an annulment.

Let's take into account that even consummated marriages have either been annulled or requested an annulment:

Tyrion and Tysha: annulled by Tywin, and against either of their wills

Daemon and Rhea: Turned down by the king, Daemon banished by Viserys

Duncan and Jenny: requested by Aegon V, Duncan is forced to abdicate

Renly plotting an annulment between Cersei and Robert

Some of these examples prove that power and influence don't always work out for an annulment. As for Littlefinger's plans, I once saw a theory stating that Littlefinger may be planning to have to local religious authorities of the Vale declare Sansa as she was before her marriage to Tyrion, a maiden fit for marriage. (When the time is right, of course.) How feasible is this plan? There are other options, of course. Is LF really waiting around for Tyrion to die, is he truly intending for Sansa to marry Harry, or is their betrothal all he really needs before his ultimate plans fall into place?

A few more questions, if you're interested in expanding the discussion.

Will Sansa and Tyrion end the series a married couple?

Will they end the series married but separated?

Will one of them be widowed? (Who do you think will live?)

Will they eventually get an annulment?

[atopvisenyashill]

What would happen if Joffrey executed both Ned and Sansa?

I mean…a small riot happens? but maybe not? things definitely get more tense between the north and the iron throne that’s for damn sure. There’s not a reason to execute Sansa - she cooperated, she tried to help Cersei, and she’s eleven, and Ned specifically confessed to keep Sansa safe. If Joffrey says “all traitors and traitor’s blood must die” and then has eleven year old Sansa’s head lopped off in front of a crowd, i do imagine this is gonna ruffle some feathers.

There’s a few flashpoints here - the actual execution, Robb’s reaction to it, and Tywin’s reaction to Robb. Take the execution first.

there’s not a lot Ned can do in this situation but if Joffrey is stupid enough to say he’s going to kill them both, Ned is not going to willingly walk to his death. He’s gonna start screaming that Joffrey is a bastard born of incest, or he’s going to insist that Sansa is innocent and he never told anyone of his treason, but either way he’s gonna get the crowd riled up and start acting up to get Joffrey to change his mind, and let us remember how recent it was that a stark father pleaded for the life of his child and a stark child pleaded for the life of their father In This Very King’s Landing. If this becomes A Whole Big(ger) Scene, that’s bad. If Joffrey kills Ned and THEN says “actually bring Sansa up here too”  - and doesn’t Sansa pass out at some point after Ned is killed?? - what does he do here? Has her woken up so he can kill her? has her executed while she’s passed out or heaving and sobbing and saying she never betrayed him and she loves him? I don’t think Joffrey has enough reason to execute her, and if Ned, Sansa, or both are yelling and pleading as they’re held down and executed, it’s gonna give a lot of people flashbacks. He can do it, of course, but I do think there will be some hesitancy, maybe some arguing, and probably some loudly expressed opinions. and meanwhile Arya is watching all of this happen with Yoren. What is KL going to even look like after this? by the time Tyrion gets there, what’s happened without Sansa there? Dontos is dead. Littlefinger has to go back to fixating on Catelyn. Joffrey has started sexually abusing random maids and ladies because he has had no Sansa outlet for his temper. They can’t hold onto staff because Joffrey put Sansa’s head on a spike and won’t take it down and it’s freaking people out. Cersei and Joffrey keep having knock out fights in public over what to do about Jaime. Joffrey is devolving much faster here, and Jaime’s life hangs in the balance. 

Then there’s Robb’s reaction to whatever the hell happens in this scenario. He has just captured Jaime, and remember Cersei was nervous about Joffrey killing Ned bc Robb might kill Jaime in reprisal. If Joffrey executes Sansa? I think without Sansa as a hostage, Robb gets more reckless on the whole. I don’t think he’ll do anything stupid - nor would the lords at Riverrun agree to anything they thought was stupid - but Rickard Karstark and Edmure Tully as well as several other lords, are pushing for Jaime to be killed. He’s not fighting to save anyone at the capital anymore; this has strictly become a rebellion. I’m sure the Lannisters would try to lie about having Arya but Robb has Jaime, he has Riverrun, he has the North, he has everything to lose, and the Lannisters have no bargaining chip. Even if you assume battles and tactics stay completely the same, would Catelyn release Jaime in this scenario, if she knows Sansa is dead, and they have zero proof Arya is alive and zero explanation for her disappearance? I think it’s more likely she’s either continuing to work as an envoy, praying she’ll get word of Arya from someone if only she keeps asking and searching, or somehow in contact with Tyrion, trying to get more information on what may have happened. It’s possible she still gets herself in trouble, but is she going to just randomly set Jaime free? No, not without proof Arya is alive. Robb could choose to use Jaime in his terms - acknowledge me as King in the North and of the Trident, get your people out of the Riverlands, agree to these borders, and I’ll give you Jaime back - or give into the anger of the people around him and send Cleos Frey back to KL with Jaime’s head and a note that says fuck you and your family. Even if Stannis and Renly are still acting dumb (likely), and Catelyn comes back with Brienne and a wild story, does Robb just send her back out as an envoy to someone else? I mean potential shadow baby assassins notwithstanding, Jaime’s presence at Riverrun (or death to lord over everyone) is useful for Robb here. 

(I keep dancing around Arya because - is Yoren unable to stop her from straight up storming the execution, if Sansa gets brought out? In the commotion of whatever scene is happening, does Arya get lost? Get caught? Get hurt? Are there more guards out looking for her because she’s the only chance Cersei has of trading for Jaime now? Can she even get out of KL? Is Yoren more desperate to hand her off quickly now that he’s seen Sansa get executed? Lots of factors here!) 

Then there’s Tywin’s reaction to Robb. Jaime may or may not have been executed but he’s certainly in a much more perilous situation. Even with Roose helping to sabotage shit (would Roose decide this is the time to enter his villain era or would he figure joffrey is too much of a risk, and bide his time a bit more??), even if Robb still sends Theon with the exact same deal, at the exact same time, and that happens the exact same way, Tywin has to take into account that Jaime is a hostage in Riverrun when he gets to king’s landing to scheme the red wedding up, OR he gets to King’s Landing ready to scheme the wedding up and devices something 100x more brutal because Robb killed Jaime. Lannister dynamics are WILDLY different here with Jaime not coming back with Brienne, too!! 

Uh anyways the point is I think most everything in Westeros is affected by this.

My opinion is that KL becomes much more stressful to live in, because Joffrey has to crack down on the population, because they didn’t appreciate him killing Sansa, and also Cersei is hysterically angry with him, Tyrion has a much harder time getting control of the city back, the Tyrells are much more nervous about negotiations with Littlefinger in Bitterbridge, and Catelyn does not set Jaime free, which puts both the Iron Throne and the North/Riverlands in a weird ass position. 

[esther-dot]

hello! i’ve followed for a while but never talked to you. thank you for being such a great jonsa and asoiaf source. i’ve been thinking lately about how sansa’s vale arc might proceed and was curious if you know of any theories about when/how her marriage to tyrion might end.

sansa needs to be unwed for littlefinger’s schemes to work. he seems to want sansa to believe he’s just waiting around for tyrion to die, but that doesn’t seem in character for him. it seems more likely he is actively trying to end her marriage behind the scenes.

do you think she’s likely to stay married to tyrion for much longer? or might her married/unmarried state end up as convoluted as the northern succession, maybe with a decree of annulment floating around somewhere like robb’s will?

Aw! Thank you so much for saying so! I really enjoyed your tags contributing to the Rhaegar & David parallels, and your post about his name.

I haven't been reading much meta this year, so I may have missed it, but I don't know that we've ever developed a specific theory about when Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would be handled! We've sometimes talked about a nice ol' widowing which is fun (but not what we'll get imo), @kellyvela found an exchange in which Martin said that someone doesn't have to go to the High Septon for an annulment but obviously will have to request it in their own name and it would reveal their location (link), so that means, it can't be safely done while Sansa’s pretending to be LF's daughter. She could do it once in Winterfell, and we've talked about the possibility of Tyrion trying to bring the North to Dany's side in DoD 2.0 via his marriage to Sansa, and if that is the route Martin wants to go, it would be pretty juicey, and really fuel Tyrion's rage if Sansa has already had their marriage annulled. That's a fun way to play it.

We've also talked about post a girl in grey trip to the North, considering loyalty to Ned and hatred for Lannisters, the North might just say fuck it, we don't recognize that forced marriage. Or, and I really do think this is possible for drama's sake, we have the two religions, and they might use that to defend not recognizing the marriage and, considering the byronic Jon quote, and how often bigamy pops up in gothic/victorian lit, I don't dismiss the idea that Sansa might marry someone before the old gods prior to an annulment being secured. That might mean, the annulment doesn't happen until close to the end of the story. I personally like the idea of a secret Jonsa wedding, but lot's of Jonsas expect it to be public after R+L=J to reconcile the Jon KitN turning out to be a Targ debacle. Either way, this would mean when Jon reunites with his friend Tyrion, they're both married to Sansa which is also a very sick twisted fun way to play it! (Stop throwing tomatoes, y'all know that would be funny!)

As for LF's current plans, I have no idea! He believed Cersei would end Tyrion, he'd then get rid of Cersei, and that at that point he could reveal who Sansa was:

"A marriage . . ." Her throat tightened. She did not want to wed again, not now, perhaps not ever. "I do not . . . I cannot marry. Father, I . . ." Alayne looked to the door, to make certain it was closed. "I am married," she whispered. "You know."

Petyr put a finger to her lips to silence her. "The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely widowed. And you must meet the boy and win his approval. Lady Waynwood will not make him marry against his will, she was quite firm on that." (AFFC, Alayane II)

No man can wed me so long as my dwarf husband still lives somewhere in this world. Queen Cersei had collected the head of a dozen dwarfs, Petyr claimed, but none were Tyrion's. (TWOW, Alayne I)

The mention of the queen's name made her stiffen. "She's not kind. She scares me. If she should learn where I am—"

"—I might have to remove her from the game sooner than I'd planned. Provided she does not remove herself first." (AFFC, Alayne I)

Cersei had the motivation to go after Tyrion, so it made sense to me he thought she'd handle it, and then he'd handle her, but seeing as what he wants to do is reveal Sansa as herself, get the KotV to go North and reclaim Winterfell, I'm not sure what he is currently planning, now that he says his timetable is screwed? Unless he thinks the mayhem of KL, Cersei's current trouble there, Aegon and then Dany's arrival will allow him to get the annulment undiscovered? Cersei is at odds with the High Septon, so maybe he thinks he could get away with it? That doesn't make sense to me though, not with the way news flies. I guess the weather is something of a shield, but not enough. Maybe he planned to kill someone and try to pass them off as Tyrion? Marry Sansa to Harry quickly after and take her North where Cersei wouldn't be able to get her? The emphasis is on Tyrion being alive, not the annulment, but maybe that's a misdirect. I really can't say. If any of you have spec, let me know and I’ll reblog it!

[istumpysk]

Hi Stumpy! Now that you've finished the re-reading project, what do you think will the Tyrion's actual ending in the book? I'm in favor of beheading as an imbecile seems to be giving her heads as gifts. What a pity that all giants must die in the end! (lol)

I wish I had a solid answer for you, but Tyrion's ending remains the most challenging to predict among all the major POV characters.

Knowing what I know about George and his use of foreshadowing, I'm relieved I wasn't assaulted with hints about him becoming Bran's Hand of the King. If that were the ending, it should have been more apparent, but it wasn't.

When I think of Tyrion's excessive foreshadowing, five things come to mind:

Losing his tongue

I used to believe this was way too obvious to be true, but so is Jon losing his eye.

Drowning

It's hard to determine if it was intended as foreshadowing for events in ACOK and ADWD, a hint about Tysha being the Sailor's Wife, or his actual ending.

Something connected to giants

I don't have a clear conclusion from this, and characters like Littlefinger, Gregor Clegane, and the real giants only add to the confusion.

Something connected to monkeys

Good luck with this one.

Something connected to gargoyles

Falling, shattering? Much of this is intertwined with lions, making it difficult to discern whether it's more related to Tommen, or Cersei and Jaime.

I know George well enough to recognize Tyrion's complete ending is sitting in plain sight throughout the text, but I'm finding it challenging to piece it all together.

Just to give you something, I'll say this: I believe at some point he'll betray Daenerys, I believe at some point she'll detain him, and I believe at some point someone will cut his tongue off. What happens after that, I couldn't tell you.

[lovespxll]

══zodiacs as game of thrones characters🌹 ⭒˚

═════Aries: Daenerys Targaryen

"I am the mother of dragons. I will take what is rightfully mine." (Fiery, determined, leader)

═════Taurus: Brienne of Tarth

"My loyalty cannot be bought." (Reliable, strong, devoted)

═════Gemini: Jaime Lannister

"The things I do for love." (Two sides to their personality, complex motivations)

═════Cancer: Sansa Stark

"No. Littlefinger. I watched you kill her. I watched you smile as you did it." (Deeply emotional, protective, transformation)

═════Leo: Tywin Lannister

"Any man who must say, 'I am king' is no true king." (Commanding presence, desires power, ruthless)

═════Virgo: Samwell Tarly

"Books are a better life." (Analytical, detail-oriented, thirst for knowledge)

═════Libra: Oberyn Martell

"Then everyone is missing half the world's pleasure." (Diplomatic, balance, charismatic and just)

═════Scorpio: Cersei Lannister

"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground." (Passionate, vengeful, complex morality)

═════Sagittarius: Arya Stark

"A girl has no name." (Independent, adventurous, thirst for revenge)

═════Capricorn: Jon Snow

"I don't know if I'll be a good king, but I know I won't be a bad one." (Ambitious, duty-bound, responsible)

═════Aquarius: Bran Stark

"The past is prologue." (Visionary, detached, unconventional)

═════Pisces: Daario Naharis

"Love is a battlefield." (Romantic, emotional, follows intuition)

[hilarychuff]

SanSa soulmate au 🥺

wip titles tag game

sansa soulmate au!!!! believe it or not there HAS been progress on the i carry it in mine front...... not only did i recently figure out some very upcoming chapter snaggles/spacing BUT i also got some help from @cellsshapedlikestars as i puzzle through some of my larger plot tangles down the horizon.

it's gotten tricky as we get to the point where the show really flattened some things/made them silly and i can't promise nOT to have anything silly or simplified etc bc like... i am very much adapting from the show in many ways. i like to try and pull from the book but also the books are!!! very big and expansive. clearly hard to write even for the actual author himself!!!! but i am trying to do things in a way that makes at least a little bit more sense. follows through a little more on some threads.

i've got a good chunk of the next chapter down (or at least the first pass at it). maybe a scene and a half more??? idk i don't want to say too much BUT there will be travel soon!!! and i may be able to find a snippet or some notes to share if anybody wants a preview

in the meantime here's my notes from the scene where jon goes feral in the crypts

He is no friend of ours, are the words she settles on. He has made me another cage. We do not need the army. I will make us other allies. Please, Jon. Forgive me my foolishness. Free me.  The letter arrives and they talk about it and jon is like @ bran and arya if you don’t find some dirt on him STAT i s2g i’m just gonna kill him idc if it is bad for business he’s dead :)  then jon goes all chokey-chokey on littlefinger in the crypts but not sure yet if he straight up kills him right there (CLIFFHANGER????????) Littlefinger talking about how tyrion must be trying to marry Sansa against her will again is like “I love Sansa as I loved her mother….. and once we are wed she will come to love me the same” and that is when Jon is like….. you will die

[mvndrvke]

canon divergence.

i'm going to follow the basic course of the series ( primarily show but books to a certain degree ) up until arya leaves braavos, with the inevitable small changes here and there, then i'll be following this plotline rather than the show's canon. it still follows the basic beats of what the show gave us, but changing her primarily in how she views her "list" and why she goes south with jon and dany. trigger warnings : death, ptsd please do not reblog

arya flees braavos after leaving the faceless men, and catches a ship back to westeros. killing meryn trant did not satisfy her as much as she thought it would, nor did the other deaths she managed to cross off her list. she decides to give up her quest for revenge after one final act– the destruction of house frey.

using her skills as a faceless man, arya kills much of house frey before she begins the long journey north. she must acknowledge during the trek that much of her quest for revenge was to avoid grief. it gave her something to do other than feel the loss of her family and friends. she’s angry at herself for leaving westeros and her family behind– sansa especially, who had been left to the lions when arya had been spirited away from king’s landing. 

reuniting with sansa is the most intimidating of them all, but she’s more determined than ever to mend her relationship with her sister and never let her down again. she uncovers littlefinger’s plotting and works alongside sansa to sow the seeds of discord to lure him into their trap. arya kills him, and solidifies herself not only as an ally to her sister, but as someone to be wary of. 

arya fights during the long night, and is one of the lucky to make it through. she ends the fight by killing the night king when he tries to kill bran. she mourns the losses the north has faced. 

there’s one last battle left before them. arya rides south with jon; she won’t let him die like ned had, or robb. she can’t bear it. they are separated during the fight in king’s landing, and are only able to reunite after daenerys’ death. 

furious at jon and struggling with the guilt of seeing too much of herself in his actions, arya returns north and lets herself be lost to grief. but this time, she does not have to face it alone. she has her sister. the she-wolves of winterfell raise the banner of house stark together.

[jonquilete]

AGoT

“That night at the feast, Eddard Stark was more hopeful than he had been in a great while. Robert was in high good humor, the Lannisters were nowhere to be seen, and even his daughters were behaving. Jory brought Arya down to join them, and Sansa spoke to her sister pleasantly. "The tournament was magnificent," she sighed. "You should have come. How was your dancing?"

"I'm sore all over," Arya reported happily, proudly displaying a huge purple bruise on her leg.

"You must be a terrible dancer," Sansa said doubtfully.

Later, while Sansa was off listening to a troupe of singers perform the complex round of interwoven ballads called the "Dance of the Dragons," Ned inspected the bruise himself. "I hope Forel is not being too hard on you," he said.

Arya stood on one leg. She was getting much better at that of late. "Syrio says that every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better."

Ned frowned. The man Syrio Forel had come with an excellent reputation, and his flamboyant Braavosi style was well suited to Arya's slender blade, yet still . . . a few days ago, she had been wandering around with a swatch of black silk tied over her eyes. Syrio was teaching her to see with her ears and her nose and her skin, she told him. Before that, he had her doing spins and back flips. "Arya, are you certain you want to persist in this?"

She nodded. "Tomorrow we're going to catch cats."

"Cats." Ned sighed. "Perhaps it was a mistake to hire this Braavosi. If you like, I will ask Jory to take over your lessons. Or I might have a quiet word with Ser Barristan. He was the finest sword in the Seven Kingdoms in his youth."

"I don't want them," Arya said. "I want Syrio."

Ned ran his fingers through his hair. Any decent master-at-arms could give Arya the rudiments of slash-and-parry without this nonsense of blindfolds, cartwheels, and hopping about on one leg, but he knew his youngest daughter well enough to know there was no arguing with that stubborn jut of jaw. "As you wish," he said. Surely she would grow tired of this soon. "Try to be careful."

"I will," she promised solemnly as she hopped smoothly from her right leg to her left.

Much later, after he had taken the girls back through the city and seen them both safe in bed, Sansa with her dreams and Arya with her bruises, Ned ascended to his own chambers atop the Tower of the Hand. The day had been warm and the room was close and stuffy. Ned went to the window and unfastened the heavy shutters to let in the cool night air. Across the Great Yard, he noticed the flickering glow of candlelight from Littlefinger's windows. The hour was well past midnight. Down by the river, the revels were only now beginning to dwindle and die.”

possibly the best day they ever had in that court. i miss ned so much fr

[dulcewrites]

What do you think of Alys? There are lots of rumours surrounding her, but I think we both know how men used to write about women who refused to play the victim in patriarchal society and actually achieved something. She was Queen of Harrenhall after all. But what is more disturbing to me is that some people say that she used Aemond for her own goal which was to climb on social ladder and give birth to royal child. I just can't help but think yep, she was supposed to be happy that she will spend her entire life as bastard serving her family which contained father who surely treated her poorly (since when bastards are treated well to begin with? Apart from Jon and Sand Snakes obviously) and his wife who surely wasn't happy about having to see the living proof of her husband's cheating and half brothers Harwin and Larys who most likely didn't care about her at all. Look how men who really work hard to better their position within Westeros society even though they weren't much influential from the beginning of their life, managed to climb really high due to their intelligence, wit and dedication - Varys and Littlefinger. And yet they are called masterminds, their morals are questionable but still their ability to achieve things because they were smart is impressive. They serve first and foremost their own interest, but when men does it, it's alright but when women they are condemned to hell. When a woman called Alys Rivers has ambitions, most likely doesn't want to spend the rest of her life as servant since she did it for like 30 years and has every right to have enough of it, aims for something better, doesn't play damsel in distress even for a second - she is evil, seductress, femme fatale who will help Aemond descent into darkness in order to gain something from it lol the level of misogyny is so high I just am shocked people still think like this where this mentality should be gone long ago

I think the conflicting way people speak about alys comes from 1) the extremely weird way she was written in the book (f&b in general is not good but that’s another discussion for another day) and 2) the very binary camps people put women, and through that, female characters into.

If she is a victim of her circumstances, she must be the right kind of the victim. If she “rises above” (which in of itself titers into misogyny bc why is it either she was ‘strong enough’ to pull herself up by her bootstraps or she was too ‘weak’ not to), it must be in a way the audience finds palatable and of their liking. People are extremely uncomfortable and frankly very nasty when women do not show responses to trauma in the way they like. Hence why people are fucking awful when it comes to Alicent.

If people want to see alys as some seductress that’s their prerogative. I think that is a very shallow and weird way to look at a woman who probably went through sexual trauma in her life. Same with people thinking Aemond is going to assault her. Once again, very odd to theorize that someone who in show canon was assaulted himself is a r*pist. I personally find the she got pregnant then sent him to his death on purpose argument not only weird but also.. lacking any sense. If she was trying to secure the bag, why on earth would she want to essentially kill the one person who could confirm they were together and the baby is his???Now I’m of the belief that Aemond was going to fight Daemon regardless but the notion alys put it in his head bc she knew he would die is frankly nonsensical to me.

I think alys is indicative of her time. It’s why I think her story, along with nettles and maybe even Sara if they include her, are important. The surface level way she gets talked about and sometimes erased in this fandom is a literal representative of how bastardy for women plays out. The fact that people want these three women wiped from the show is so wild to me. Another convo we will eventually have is how gross it is how this fandom treats the people that actually represent them. You are not a targaryen.. you are the smallfolk

Idk if this answered your question. I feel like I’ve answered this before in different ask and I always regurgitate the same stuff. I may not be making sense lol. I like Alys. I’m excited for alys. Here’s a shameless plug of how i truly see her

[archive-ofmyheart]

Because he’s Littlefinger, and he must die. That is the rule of all self-inserts. Plan canals and kill Littlefinger for whatever excuse you can come up with.

– Chapter 6, Into The Old Falcon - Salamon2 - ASoIaF [Ao3]