#like not stuff that has actually been omitted/changed

[moghedien]

With every season it becomes increasingly clear to me how many book fans would really benefit from looking at a timeline of what events happen when because people just don’t know how spread out some of these things are

[shithowdy]

this is your periodic reminder that for all the artifacts and errors and "tells" one could possibly list, the only reliable way to actually determine if an image is ai generated is to investigate the source. it is becoming increasingly common for "fake classical paintings" to circulate around curative aesthetic blogs, and everyone should be using this as an opportunity to not only exercise their investigative skills but also appreciate art more in general. you're all checking out the artists you reblog, right? 🫣

so what are some signs to look for? let's use this very good example.

what a lovely late-impressionist piece blended with evocative leyendecker-esque themes! why haven't you ever heard of this artist before? surely tumblr would be all over an artist like this. who is justin brown?

your two options from here are to do a search for the name, or a reverse image search. i prefer reverse image searching, particularly when it comes to a common name like "justin brown". so what does that net?

Immediately, without looking at any text, something is wrong: it barely exists. an actual historical piece would turn up numerous results from websites individually discussing the piece, but no such discussions are taking place. Looking at the text, though, does show the source-- and at least in this case, the creator was honest about their medium.

But let's also look at the "exact matches", in case a source doesn't make itself apparent in the initial sidebar results like this.

This section will often tell you post dates of images, and here it can be seen that the very first iteration of the image was posted 15 days ago. It did not exist online prior to that.

Seeing how long an unsourced image has been floating around is a skill applicable to more than just generative images! See a cool image of an artifact or other intriguing item with a vivid caption? Reverse search it! If all the results are paired with that caption and only go back a few months, you might just have viral facebook spam.

Sometimes generative creators are dishonest about their medium and do not tag it like in the example, so that's when establishing "jpeg provenance" becomes important. While it can be a little trickier to determine if someone is using generative images and not admitting to it if they aren't trying to pass it off as a classic, something to consider is the age of their account and the frequency with which they post. Here are some account red flags:

-Did they only start posting art after 2022, or if they did before, did their style/skill level WILDLY change? Not gradual improvement-- I'm talking amateur graphite portraits straight into complex digital renders. Everyone starts somewhere, newness is not a red flag alone; it's newness combined with existing in a vacuum away from any community.

-Do they post fully-finished paintings several times a week? -Do many of these paintings seem iterative of a similar theme or subject matter ("three well-dressed young men face each other under shade and dappled sunlight")?

-Does their style change in inconsistent ways? An artist that can swap between painting like Drew Struzan and Hokusai should be pretty well known, right? Why is no one hyping this guy?!

-Do they have social media besides the source instagram? If so, what are they posting about? Are there any WIPs? Doodles? Interactions with other artists? Gallery dates? 3am self-doubt posts? Or is it all self-promo? Crypto? Seemingly nothing art-related at all for someone pushing out 3 weekly paintings?

Basically, if it's important to you to omit this stuff when you curate, please don't just smash reblog if the source doesn't seem to be the OP themselves. Seeking out sources was important even before this became an issue, now it is more than ever.

peace n love

[cowboys-tshot]

Circe and Odysseus in Epic: The Musical

EDIT: DO NOT TAKE MY WORD AS THE 100% TRUTH!!

I took some classes and wrote a paper about ancient Greek culture, but I am in NO WAY an expert. Please read through the reblogs to see some good criticisms and discussion about this topic further. My point overall stands that you can't apply modern rules and standards to ancient stories, but my evidence is undoubtedly flawed! This post has been edited to try and better reflect this.

I'm seeing everyone pointing out the possible issues with Epic the Musical's deviation from the original story of Circe and Odysseus, and as someone who's studied Ancient Greece/ancient Greek myths a bit, I wanted to say some stuff about it. This will be a bit of a long one, so apologies for my rambling!

Note that I'm not trying to shit on SA survivor's perspectives and (completely valid) arguments. I'm just trying to offer some context surrounding the original myth and how it fits (or rather, doesn't fit) with a modern audience. If I'm wrong with any of this, feel free to call me out! Criticize the shit out of me! I like learning about Greek culture and myths and would 100% love to hear other perspectives on this.

So, a few points about Ancient Greek myths to kind of explain the context around Circe and Odysseus:

Greek myths often did not have good views/depictions of women. Women were very often depicted as conniving, selfish, sexually insatiable creatures. There are a few deviations from this trope, the most prominent of which being Penelope herself—she's basically the ideal Greek wife, staying loyal to her husband for 20 years and all that.

Adultery often only applied to women. Husbands cheating on their wives wasn't merely tolerated, but kind of expected. Men often cheated on their wives with various kinds of prostitutes, concubines, mistresses, etc. Although, sleeping with unmarried women (that weren't specifically prostitutes) or married women was still looked down upon. Women didn't have this same standard. They could only sleep with their husbands—hell, their husbands (and family) were pretty much the only men they could even interact with once some really sexist Asiatic practices were brought to Athens.

The original myth has Hermes very plainly lay out how Odysseus' confrontation with Circe will go: Odysseus will eat the moly, draw his sword at her, she'll proposition him, and Hermes directly tells Odysseus to accept. Basically a "sleep with her if you want your men to live" situation. (See this post for more specifics on this).

So, let's apply this to Epic: The Musical. Here's some reasons I think may explain the Circe myth being changed:

The Greek "women being evil" stereotype is... problematic. While I 100% understand that it's important to acknowledge male victims of SA, I don't think the original myth was focusing on Odysseus being a victim—I saw it more of an emphasis on Circe being a sexually selfish woman, as women were often believed to be. Changing Circe to be less conniving and evil deviates from the concerning Greek stereotype.

The SA in the myth is not actually very clearly SA. Yes, with a modern perspective, it absolutely is sexual coercion, but for ancient Greeks, not so much. It made sense to them that sex could be transactional, especially when gods were involved. It's already been established that Epic, while still generally accurate to the original myth, does change things relating to morality/themes in order to better align with modern Western ideas (i.e. OG Odysseus not being as remorseful and merciful, as that was expected of a Greek hero, but Epic Odysseus having more empathy because that's more modernly heroic). If something from the original myth doesn't translate well into modern culture, then it's understandable to want to change or omit it.

In the case that the original Circe myth wasn't SA (I'm not saying one is more right than the other, I'm just covering all the bases), then it wouldn't even constitute as cheating. Like I described earlier, men often slept with women that weren't their wives. Plus, being a goddess, she's already kinda exempt from being blamed if Odysseus slept with her—only women are ever really blamed for sleeping with (or being SAed by) gods, and even then, their husbands sometimes don't even give a shit. But modernly, we would not see it that way. To us, it's not societally acceptable for a married man to sleep with another woman (without his wife's consent, at least). While Ancient Greeks viewed Odysseus as a good (or at least okay) husband, a modern audience wouldn't. Making Odysseus loyal to Penelope and not sleeping with other women (assuming this wasn't SA, but again that's one interpretation) makes him the good, loyal, empathic, modernly heroic man that Epic is clearly aiming for. Repeating my last point: If something from the original myth doesn't translate well into modern culture, then it's understandable to want to change or omit it.

Applying modern perspectives on Ancient Greek society and mythology isn't worth it. Like, we all joke about Greek mythology/Ancient Greece being super gay, but it was often just what we consider pedophilia (it's called pederasty if you'd like to know more). Y'know the Hades and Persephone story? Like, the original one with the kidnapping? Yeah, that was kinda normal in some areas. The myth of Demeter and Persephone is tragic, yes, but it was so normal that a lot of wedding ceremonies included references/recreations of it! Girls got married off ASAP after their first menstruation to men of at least 30 years old. We don't tolerate that shit today (for the most part, at least)! But it was normal in Ancient Greece. Applying modern rules and standards to ancient culture just does not work.

Anyways, I'll shut up now! I'm gonna go keep listening to The Circe Saga lmao

[malenjoyer]

tim used to be my fav robin a long time ago but I've started to understand why so many ppl don't like him

he was an okay character in the 90s/2000s but now with all of the other characters that have been added to the batfam he just brings so little to the table. he pales in comparison and has just become white guy with blue eyes number 738393. everything that stood out about him can be found in other characters, in the other robins, but better (big brother-little brother with dick&damian, solo robin adventures with damian, detective robin with maps, timsteph with daminika, family outside of the bats with damian or maps, etc).

it's so bad that in adaptations he's the most likely to be omitted (and can we blame dc?). steph is omitted as a robin more than him but in her case it's misogyny; what's tim's excuse?

he contributed to some important aspects of modern robin but those aspects are far better utilized by other robins. and I think steph is better off as a cass cain cast character bc, although dc is misogynistic and racist, cass has far better longevity than tim as a character and I think she has so many great things to achieve. so steph becoming part of her cast is a far better option for her popularity + perhaps steph could have her own solo stuff in the future bc she also is more interesting than tim. steph even has her own hero alias as spoiler which is already far more than tim has done post-robin. I frankly can't blame dc for not knowing what to do with him bc there's not much to work with and he doesn't stand on his own as a character

I actually had a lot of difficulty liking Tim or getting started on Tim at first because of this but the Old Media Lover brain took over. I think, yeah, it’s super doomy to think about the future of Tim drake and I have pondered what could be done about him and whether they’ll let him move on.

I really do think the power of being a fan is being able to take the character you loved before and simply create a universe for them where they have that future that you want for them. My friend and I have discussed a potential future for Tim that we really like and it honestly involves an aspect that other people probably won’t like- leaving gotham and leaving the “batfamily”. It’s one of my secret projects.

I guess once you realize that you don’t have to wait for DC to give your favorite character a better ending, you can just write it or draw it, it’s easy to stay a lot more optimistic.

Because when you say this for Tim drake, it’s hard to not say the same thing for Batman- the incapability to move on. For Batman, it’s part of the charm, but you realize gotham will never heal, Batman will never heal, or else the story will change. That’s the consequences of being a story that must go on. Once you think about that, it all gets very depressing because you realize eventually characters have to regress or stagnate because they are a product.

My point is, as a fan even though these are valid criticisms, I don’t believe you have to lose interest in characters if you truly don’t want to. A company doesn’t have control over your imagination. You can fix him. You can give him what he needs. It’s easy to get swept up by the negativity of being a comic fan especially with other people saying the same points and agreeing with you but you are put on this earth to be happy and enjoy life. So you can give him a new path if you want

[evolutionsvoid]

Anything can be an ecosystem, it is just a matter of nutrients and consistency. So often we think that habitats are things that only exist outside our walls, where civilization hasn't fully taken hold. Some folk think we sapient species live completely separate from the natural world, that our lands are omitted from everything else. To them, there is a clear line between what is "nature" and what is "civilization" and once you cross those boundaries, the other ceases to be. But in truth, it is all connected, and our homes are a part of the system like everything else. A city may seem vastly different from any other habitat on the planet, but it is still an ecosystem nonetheless. We are but the fauna running about within, and one of the species that thrives in it. And to the shock of some, there are other creatures that do incredibly well in these man-made habitats, finding living within them just as comfortable as we do.

Sewers and dumps don't seem like much but areas of pure filth, but there is still nutrients to be found. Just because we don't eat the stuff doesn't mean it is useless. Look at the dung beetle, an insect that lives off of fecal matter. While a sewer would be a vile land for us, it would be a paradise to such a coprophage. Things in the wild feed off of waste, it is a natural thing. So when we make areas that are nothing but filth, then some species flock to it, seeing an endless buffet. The Otyugh is one such creature.

When one first sees an Otyugh (probably in illustration over real life), it may be hard to wrap your head around what it actually is. The anatomy seems all over, with arms, legs and heads starting to blur together. Some would claim they are a three-legged species with two tendril arms and a large eye stalk, which is an understandable mistake. The Otyugh is hard to decipher as it moves and feeds, and its anatomy changes depending on the situation. In truth, it is actually a large echinoderm, one that possesses six limbs. Two of these arms are sensory, while the other four are designed for feeding, manipulation and moving. All six have sensory organs for smelling and tasting the world around them, but only two have prominent eyes. These organs are much stronger on these limbs, versus the crude eyes on the others that can only tell between light and dark. All arms work together to help the creature move and feed, though hunting for food isn't exactly a challenge for an Otyugh.

As I made clear, this species is one that feeds entirely on waste, finding poop and filth quite delicious. It isn't just feces, it is anything rotting, foul and discarded that they eat. Their central mouth is a complex arrangement of grinding plates, shredding teeth and potent acid, all designed to consume absolutely everything that gets shoveled in. They are the cleanup crew of the world, like all scavengers, and will erase any detritus or corpse that has been left behind. They are practically immune to poison and disease, devouring plague ridden carcasses without worry. They are essential creatures to areas rife with rot, which is why they have found their way to humanity's sewers.

Otyugh are a species that originally relied on dragons and other megafauna to survive. Their vast amounts of waste gave the Otyugh sustenance, and thus they were commonly found near dragon lairs. Small creatures don't offer enough for such large beasts, but that changed when some species started stockpiling their filth. When the Otyugh caught wind of humans creating places specifically for waste and trash, they were quick to move in. Here was another consistent source of food, in a place that seemed tailor made to them. At first, people were repulsed, but then they realized if they didn't want the Otyugh there, then they would have to go down there and drive them out themselves. Suddenly, no one was complaining anymore.

While most folk don't bother with these creatures, times do come where people do confront them. I know in some big fancy cities, they don't like the image of a giant poop eating seastar dwelling below, so they got the bright idea of getting rid of them. In other cases, their population gets out of control and they start looking for extra sustenance in face of all this competition. Whichever the reason, trying to drive one out or fight it will quickly make you regret your life choices. Otyugh may be sewage suckers, but they can be extremely dangerous. Their tendrils are dexterous and thorny, capable of whipping them with deadly force. Their limbs are many, allowing them to attack from many angles and continue the battle should they lose one or two. The maw in the center of it all is an "everything-grinder," which can reduce an armored warrior to juice if they get too close. On top of all that is the fact that they are dripping with filth and vileness, which can lead to nasty infections or sickness should one be exposed. Sometimes slayers will succeed in killing an Otyugh, only to succumb to a horrible rotting disease weeks later from a mere scratch they had received. In most cases, fighting them is straight up not worth it. It should only be a last resort, for when the Otyugh start spilling out from their sewer homes and begin eating "fresher" things.

To go back to that earlier mistaken description, of a beast with "three legs, two arms and one eye stalk," there is a reason that was a common belief. When Otyugh are feeding, they are laying down in the ocean of filth, positioned like any seastar you would see on the coast. Mouth down, arms out, just enjoying life. When buried in this waste, you can't really see them. Their bodies are colored and designed to fit in with piles of manure and disgust around them (as if anything would want to eat them), and thus folk miss them most of the time. However, when threatened, the Otyugh will rear up to look much larger and expose its pulverizing maw. This is done by using three tendrils for support, like legs. Two feeding limbs are flailed about in a threatening manner, while a sensory tentacle is held high for it to see its attacker. Now that it has made itself obvious and known, people start paying attention. This is why that description became commonplace, as these postures were how folk even got to see them most of the time!

A funny thing to note is that humans are probably way more familiar with the Otyugh than dryads. Honestly, it was a while before I even got to see one myself! This is because dryads collect and compost their waste at home, making sewer systems rare in our towns and cities. Due to large efforts to recycle and reuse, we don't have large areas of the stuff for an Otyugh to settle in. This isn't meant to be a dig at humanity, more just a neat observation. I will say that some dryads made a business of utilizing an Otyugh to rapidly breakdown substances and objects a normal household couldn't properly handle. It is like a rapid transformation of waste into fertilizer, for those who don't want to wait. Bring your junk to these places, let the Otyugh eat it and get its fertile expulsions in return. An odd business, but it seems to be working pretty well! Of course, there are also rumors that some of these establishments earn the real coin from folks who want certain "somethings" to "disappear..."

Chlora Myron

Dryad Natural Historian

-----------------------------------------

"Otyugh"

While this entry is written by Chlora, it is one that I would say is not canon. Mainly because I know the DnD company is incredibly litigious and not fans of their stuff being used anywhere else. I mainly drew this thing up because I thought it would be fun and the entry was me exploring the "what if" scenario.

But hey! An Otyugh that is an echinoderm! Hmm. Like a big ol seastar! Hmmm! Perhaps like a starfish! HMMMMMM!

[frereamour]

Isa frereamour's non-definitive gay incest book list

Here it is: a mix of stuff I've read and intend to read. Quality varies greatly. I'm omitting all examples of erotica because that doesn't interest me, even though many of these novels have sexual content. "But why isn't Game of Thrones, Flowers in the Attic etc here?" because I hate you and straight incest means nothing to me. The family relationship takes precedent over consanguinity. Random order.

BrotherBrother

The Carnivorous Lamb, Agustín Gomez Arcos - A classic, really romantic exploration of the relationship between the two brothers against the backdrop of Francoist Spain. You've read this, and probably reread it.

My Loose Thread, Dennis Cooper - Really intense and disquieting, typical of the author, although the relationship between the brothers is more central here than in other works where it's more peripheral. Recommend all oeuvre.

Not Forever, But For Now, Chuck Palahniuk- Some really interesting meditations on youth and growing out of being 'prey', but lost me in the end. We/us pronouns type brothers.

Querelle, Jean Genet - Thief, murderer, prostitute, brotherfucker. We all know and love Querelle. Movie good as well.

Gemini, Michel Tournier - Twincest, more we/us brothers. I have to be honest I stopped reading this because I started playing a video game, and by page 63 there still wasn't much in terms of incest. I want to finish it though. Jean Genet liked it.

The Power of the Dog, Thomas Savage - I asked my wife for recommendations and she mentioned the movie, which is based on this book. When I asked 'but wasn't it about the kid', she said 'no, it's about the brother, trust me'. I have watched neither movie nor read the book but I believe my baby.

Twins, Bari Wood - The book behind Dead Ringers. Twincest again. You also know this.

A God Against the Gods, Allen Drury - Details the power struggles of pharaoh Akhenaten to establish a monotheist religion in Egypt, the cult of the Solar Disc Aten, and his relationship with brother, lover and heir Smenkhara. Has a sequel.

The Winter Prince, Elizabeth Wein - This book keeps being recommended, one day I'll read it. The interest here are brothers Medraut and Lleu but there are other incestuous relationships (possibly mother-son? I don't care)

Brothers Bishop, by Bart Yates - To be honest this book is not very good but it does have an explicit relationship between the two brothers. Thanks Anon for the rec.

The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. Le Guin - Another fav!! All the incest happens before the book starts, but it's a big part of the background of one of the characters. The characters in question are actually not men, but the book uses he/him pronouns for them and refers to them as brothers. Thanks for the rec Anon, I've been meaning to read this for ages, completely unrelated to incest content

On the Black Hill, Bruce Chatwin - About two twins who run a farm together for 80 years. This book doesn't have anything explicit about their relationship but it's a similar dynamic to The Power of the Dog so I thought it might fit. Thanks for the rec Anon!

Salvation Army by Abdellah Taïa - Moroccan coming-of-age autobiography where the author remembers being in love with his older brother. Thanks for the rec Anon!

chinese webnovels:

Brother, 人体骨架 - Really lovely exploration of a relationship between an older brother who is the caretaker for his disabled younger brother (the nature of his condition is kept vague, a severe form of autism, perhaps)

Flying Gulls Never Land, 回南雀 - Younger brother goes to prison for murder and now that he's out there's only one thing on his mind. Really fun read.

Wu Chang Jie, 水千丞 - One of my favourite xianxia novels due to how balls to the wall crazy the protagonist younger brother is. Plot is somehow secondary to him making his older brother fall in love with him again after a lifetime of uhm let's call it torture to keep things classy. Best translation by Corgi unfortunately not available.

Can't be left behind, 尤萨阿里塔 - This isn't usually my style, and the writing isn't that great, but, when I started reading this I couldn't put it down, which must mean something. Younger brother runs away to live with older brother after parents divorce. Other incest novel by same author being translated in the same website, don't care for it, but check it out.

DadSon

Nocturnes for the King of Naples, Edmund White - Epistolary style novel in which the narrator addresses an older lover who, it becomes apparent, is an idealized version of his father, with none of his predatory nature, but all the wealth.

Nuestra Parte de Noche, Mariana Enríquez - There sure is a lot of child sexual abuse happening around this father and son, sure wonder what that could all mean, considering their own turbulent relationship. Guess we'll never know.

Pages from Cold Point and other Stories, Paul Bowles - Only the title short story is incestuous as far as I know, and it was pretty bad. Father deals with homophobic population complaining about his son sleeping with all the men by sleeping with him himself.

The Familia Grande, Camille Kouchner - Speaking of bad. Account of how the author's brother was raped by their stepfather and how this affected her. However, really fun example of women in male dominated fields if we consider it from the "how can I make this about me" angle. The brother didn't even want her to publish the book!

Fire from Heaven, Mary Renault - First book in the Persian Boy trilogy, detailing Alexander the Great's life from childhood to young adulthood. Much has been written about his relationship with mother Olympias but uhm, that takes second stage to what he and his father were doing to each other. Father anxious to ensure his son will be sexually dominant when having sex with other men, while struggling with the conflicting desire to dominate him sexually. Tale as old as time.

The Spanish Gardener, A. J. Cronin - Intensely jealous and controlling father suspects son's and gardener's relationship isn't just friendly.

Lost Souls, Poppy Z. Brite - All kinds of fun things can happen when your dad is a vampire. I actually really like two other characters in this, fun book all around.

The Chosen, Ricardo Pinto - Fantasy trilogy that keeps showing up when I look for both gay and incest. I haven't started reading it yet, but the dad is introduced with 'his father's beautiful face' so I'm making an educated guess about the nature of the incest in this book, but not ruling out that the protagonist might end up with a cousin, in which case we all kill ourselves or something.

Warchild, Karin Lowachee - Scifi trilogy that deals with children/teens at once recruited to be prostitutes or child soldiers, and the similarities between the two. Each book has a different protagonist, but they're all connected. Recommend the three books, love this series.

Dream Boy, Jim Grimsley - Teen boy victim of father's abuse, finds comfort in relationship with classmate, but homophobia threatens his happiness.

Try, Dennis Cooper - Heavily features adoptive father(s)/son sexual abuse. Thank you, Neil for the rec.

Arturo's Island, Elsa Morante - The main character is a young boy who's painfully in love with his father and is extremely angry when his dad brings home a new bride. Thanks Anon for the rec.

Henry Henry, Allen Bratton - Reimagining of Shakespeare's Henriad, transposing the legend of Henry V's wayward youth into 21st-century Britain. Thanks for the rec, problematicvacationbrothers!

chinese webnovels:

Blossom by River Country, 孔恰 - Translation work ongoing, which is why I haven't read this, but makes me really wish I could read chinese because I have a feeling the prose in its original form would be great. Slave boy adopted by intransigent general who learns to love him.

Stars of Chaos (Sha Po Lang), priest - Orphan boy adopted by cold and distant general who spends a lot of time away, despite this the two grow closer over the years. There's also a war or something, and big machines.

Imperial Uncle, 大风刮过 - (uncle x nephew) I haven't read this, but I kept getting recommended, since it's the only uncle x nephew example I'm sticking it here, until a beautiful time comes when I have enough recs for an uncle x nephew section by itself.

SisterSister

Sharp Objects, Gillian Flynn - You've probably also read this. Also a good example of momdaughter but as I have nothing else for that category I'm leaving it here.

We Have Always Lived in the Castle, Shirley Jackson - Another classic. There are people who know this is a book about incest, and there are people who are dumb as rocks.

Into the Forest, Jean Hegland - Two sisters together at the end of the world. Very slow at times, but I liked the claustrophobia. Didn't like the random guy who showed up to mess up the vibe.

The Blindness of the Heart, Julia Franck - This is a war novel across several generations, I'm putting it here from a specific rec, but my interest in reading it is very slim.

Bright Lines, Tanwi Nandini Islam - Another book from a rec, three girls across two continents who discover family secrets. Really scared that this is just cousincest but being very hopeful and crossing my fingers and leaving it here.

The Thirteenth Tale, Diane Setterfield - Gothic suspense novel. Several examples of incest, but the focus here is pair of twin girls + their sister whose identity is a mystery for much of the novel.

The Sinner, Petra Hammesfahr - Another rec by mia belissima moglie, she's going off what happened in the tv show, but I'm trusting that the show follows the book. A woman who would do everything for her sister.

Sisters, Daisy Johnson - This cover and synopsis are very suggestive, and yet I wonder. However goodreads shelves indicate I shouldn't. And yet I can't trust like that. Hopefully one of you can let me know for sure.

Cassandra at the Wedding, Dorothy Baker - One of my favs on this list! Cass is one of the best to every do it. She's gay, she's a twin, and she's pretty unashamedly in love with her sister. The book is about her sister's wedding which Cass, of course, tries to sabotage. Thanks for the rec Anon, I'm so hype for this one!

Honorable Mentions

Everything that is somehow adjacent, or in which gay incest isn't central but still shows up.

Nefando, Mónica Ojeda - Crazy good book that deals with themes of child sexual abuse and exploitation. Includes three siblings who have been abused by their father, the two girls and one boy are lovers as adults

Boys Alive, Pier Paolo Pasolini - Deals with the lives of destitute street boys in Rome, left to fend for themselves, many are rejected or abused by parents, all involved in petty theft and prostitution to some degree.

The Vampire Armand, Anne Rice - My favourite of the tvc books, and I think it's pretty easy to read Marius' relationship with Armand as well as the other boys as parental.

The Magician, Colm Tóibín - This is a loooong book and the incest is only nominal, which is why it's just an honorable mention. This is a novelization of the life of Thomas Mann, who wrote in his diaries that he was in love with his oldest son for a time. Thanks for the rec Anon

The Piano Teacher, Elfriede Jelinek - This book is absolutely wild in a lot of ways but one of the central themes is the protagonist trying to escape her domineering and possessive mother (who forces them to share a bed!). Thanks Anon for the rec!

Xenogenisis Trilogy, Octavia Butler - I hesitate to recommend this even though it's an amazing series. A lot of the incest is various brother/sister couples, but the two later books have a lot of characters who are a third gender (or not yet male or female) and there's a lot of general discussion of incest. Thanks for the rec Anon, I'll include it.

[angelsdean]

I need people to understand how S&P (standards and practices) works in television and how much influence they have over what gets to stay IN an episode of a show and how the big time network execs are the ones holding the purse strings and making final decisions on a show's content, not the writers / showrunners / creatives involved.

So many creators have shared S&P notes over the years of the wild and nonsensical things networks wanted them to omit / change / forbid. Most famously on tumblr, I've seen it so many times, is the notes from Gravity Falls. But here's a post compiling a bunch of particularly bad ones from various networks too. Do you see the things they're asking to be changed / cut ?

Now imagine, anything you want to get into your show and actually air has to get through S&P and the network execs. A lot of creators have had to resort to underhanded methods. A lot of creators have had to relegate things to subtext and innuendo and scenes that are "open to interpretation" instead of explicit in meaning. Things have had to be coded and symbolized. And they're relying on their audience to be good readers, good at media literacy, to notice and get it. This stuff isn't the ramblings of conspiracy theorists, it's the true practices creatives have had to use to be able to tell diverse stories for ages. The Hays Code is pretty well known, it exists because of censorship. It was a way to symbolize certain things and get past censors.

Queercoding, in particular, has been used for ages in both visual media and literature do signal to queer audiences that yes, this character is one of us, but no, we can't be explicit about it because TPTB won't allow it. It's a wink-wink, nudge-nudge to those in the know. It's the deliberate use of certain queer imagery / clothing / mannerisms / phrases / references to other queer media / subtle glances and lingering touches. Things that offer plausible deniability and can be explained away or go unnoticed by straight audiences to get past those network censors. But that queer viewers WILL (hopefully) pick up on.

Because, unfortunately, still to this day, a lot of antiquated network execs don't think queer narratives are profitable. They don't think they'll appeal to general audiences, because that's what matters, whatever appeals to most of the audience demographic so they can keep watching and keep making the network more money. The networks don't care about telling good stories! Most of them are old white cishet business men, not creatives. They don't care about character arcs and what will make fans happy. They don't care about storytelling. What they care about is profit and they're basing their ideas of what's profitable on what they believe is the predominate target demographic, usually white cis heterosexual audiences.

So, imagine a show that started airing in the early 2000s. Imagine a show where the two main characters are based on two characters from a famous Beat Generation novel, where one of the characters is queer! based on a real like bisexual man! The creator is aware of this, most definitely. And sure, it's 2005, there's no way they were thinking of making that explicit about Dean in the text because it just wouldn't fly back then to have a main character be queer. But! it's made subtext. And there are nods to that queerness placed in the text. Things that are open to interpretation. Things that are drenched in metaphor (looking at you 1x06 Skin "I know I'm a freak" "maybe this thing was born human but was different...hated. Until he learned to become someone else.") Things that are blink-and-you-miss-it and left to plausible deniability (things like seemingly spending an hour in the men's bathroom, or always reacting a little vulnerable and awkward when you're clocked instead of laughing it off and making a homophobic joke abt it)

And then, years later there's a ship! It's popular and at first the writers aren't really seriously thinking about it but they'll throw the fans a bone here and there. Then, some writers do get on the destiel train and start actively writing scenes for them that are suggestive. And only a fraction of what they write actually makes it into the text. So many lines left on the cutting room floor: i love past you. i forgive you i love you. i lost cas and it damn near broke me. spread cas's ashes alone. of course i wanted you to stay. if cas were here. -- etc. Everything cut was not cut by the writers! Why would a writer write something to then sabotage their own story and cut it? No, these are things that didn't make it past the network. Somewhere a note was made maybe "too gay" or "don't feed the shippers" or simply "no destiel."

So, "no destiel." That's pretty clearly the message we got from the CW for years. "No destiel. Destiel will alienate our general audience. Two of our main characters being queer? And in a relationship? No way." So what can the pro-destiel creatives involved do, if the network is saying no? What can the writers do if most of their explicit destiel (or queer dean) lines / moments are getting cut? Relegate things to subtext. Make jokes that straight people can wave off but queer people can read into. Make costuming and set design choices that the hardcore fans who are already looking will notice while the general audience and the out-of-touch network execs won't blink and eye at (I'm looking at you Jerry and your lamps and disappearing second nightstands and your gay flamingo bar!)

And then, when the audience asks, "is destiel real? is this proof of destiel?" what can the creatives do but deny? Yes, it hurts, to be told "No no I don't know what you're talking about. There's no destiel in supernatural" a la "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" but! if the network said "no destiel!" and you and your creative team have been working to keep putting destiel in the subtext of the narrative in a way that will get past censors, you can't just go "Yes, actually, all that subtext and symbolism you're picking up, yea it's because destiel is actually in the narrative."

But, there's a BIG difference between actively putting queer themes and subtext into the narrative and then saying it's not there (but it is! and the audience sees it!) versus NOT putting any queer content into the text but SAYING it is there to entice queer fans to continue watching. The latter, is textbook queerbaiting. The former? Is not. The former is the tactics so many creatives have had to use for years, decades, centuries, to get past censorship and signal to those in the know that yea, characters like you are here, they exist in this story.

Were the spn writers perfect? No, absolutely not. And I don't think every instance of queer content was a secret signal. Some stuff, depending on the writer, might've been a period-typical gay joke. These writers are flawed. But it's no secret that there were pro-destiel writers in the writing room throughout the years, and that efforts were made to make it explicitly canon (the market research!)

So no, the writers weren't ever perfect or a homogeneous entity. But they definitely were fighting an uphill battle constantly for 15 yrs against S&P and network execs with antiquated ideas of what's profitable / appealing.

Spn even called out the networks before, on the show, using a silly example of complaints abt the lighting of the show and how dark the early seasons were. Brightening the later seasons wasn't a creative choice, but a network choice. And if the networks can complain abt and change something as trivial as the lighting of a show, they definitely are having a hand in influencing the content of the show, especially queer content.

Even in s15, (seasons fifteen!!!) Misha has said he worried Castiel's confession would not air. In 2020!!! And Jensen recorded that scene on his personal phone! Why? Sure, for the memories. But also, I do not doubt for a second that part of it was for insurance, should the scene mysteriously disappear completely. We've seen the finale script. We've seen the omitted omitted omitted scenes. We all saw how they hacked the confession scene to bits. The weird cuts and close-ups. That's not the writers doing. That's likely not even the editors (willingly). That's orders from on high. All of the fuckery we saw in s15 reeks of network interference. Writers are not trying to sabotage their own stories, believe me.

Anyways, TLDR: Networks have a lot more power than many think and they get final say in what makes it to air. And for years creative teams have had to find ways to get past network censorship if they want "banned" or "unapproved" "unprofitable" "unwanted" content to make it into the show. That means relying on techniques like symbolism, subtext, and queercoding, and then shutting up about it. Denying its there, saying it's all "open to interpretation" all while they continue to put that open to interpretation content into the show. And that's not queerbaiting, as frustrating as it might be for queer audiences to be told that what they're seeing isn't there, it's still not queerbaiting. Queerbaiting is a marketing technique to draw in queer fans by baiting them with the promise of queer content and then having no queer content in said media. But if you are picking up on queer themes / subtext / symbolism / coding that is in front of your face IN the text, that's not queerbaiting. It's there, covertly, for you, because someone higher up didn't want it to be there explicitly or at all.

[naurius]

this one's a bit more straightforward, but I still wanted to ask if we think anything changed/who or what changed it, so I added those options too. As always, feel free to share your thoughts!! I'll put some of mine down here ↓

Something I wanted to include in this discussion was really just this photo

Cuz as we know, this is the one where they were able to find the recipe, and also a photo that Lu Guang had apparently been staring into for a long time before declaring the case a lost cause. Which has always seemed kinda strange to me, especially considering that this was the only photo (that they were aware of at the time) where cxs would possess Lin Zhen instead... so you'll have cxs rooting through the fridge and inventories and whatnot but don't even want to try going through the one who actually knows the recipe's phone or apartment or something?

I've seen the idea floating around that maybe Lu Guang repeats stuff in order to aid in Cheng Xiaoshi's character development (or however you'd word that lol), which I do think could potentially be the case (and will probably be a pretty big deal when it comes to our next mission...). As we know, he has let some things play out the exact same as it has even though his knowledge could have sped up the progress, so it's not too crazy to imagine him fabricating a helpless moment so that Cheng Xiaoshi can find a little glimmer of hope in the situation and beat the odds

BUT if that is all true, then I kinda want to know the story behind this picture

Seeing as this one is easily the most helpful photo... is this something they had missed previously that lg let slip through the cracks again in order to give cxs that moment? Or is it possible he hid this photo intentionally to give cxs that moment? Or maybe he didn't even know about this picture bc it was omitted/he missed it last time?

cxs ends up using this photo to get more noodles too, is that the same? Is this the same?

I mean, nothing really important or life-changing happens in this dive anyways (unless you wanna talk about the intelligent management thing I suppose?) so it also wouldn't be too crazy for lg to have secretly allowed cxs to dive in and just pretended to be surprised. Buuuut of course it's also just fun to imagine that cxs is always keeping lg on his toes when it comes to silly little moments like this :3

[blueikeproductions]

An update on the Transformers CyberWorld situation.

Without a shadow of a doubt, it’s the next cartoon as a new copyright notice on Hasbro’s part includes animated series.

So we’re moving on from EarthSpark. A well intentioned successor to Rescue Bots aimed older that … just didn’t stick the landing for many reasons (no Nightshade being Enby isn’t one of them, but among certain groups it didn’t exactly help either…).

So what can we expect going forward.

Honestly I think we’re in the middle of a shift, creatively.

Cyberverse & EarthSpark clung to a lot of IDW centric ideas about how the Autobots are shady & the Decepticons are the actual heroes.

Skybound and TFONE are to be returning to traditional Heroic Autobots and Evil Decepticons. Starscream & Shockwave are absolutely psychotic, Soundwave is more professional in an ends justify the means capacity, and Skybound Optimus being praised for a much needed return to the strong enough to be gentle vs the introverted millenial/Gen Z kid most stuff lately has cast him in. And just by official trailers and snippets alone, ONE’s fixed a huge problem with the cast system thing started by Aligned, by making future Autobots into the oppressed miners and from what we can tell, the future Decepticons being among those who either benefited from the system or joined Starscream’s splinter faction, a faction that likely has no benefits to Cybertron as a whole.

It does feel like there’s a bit of course correcting to go with a more traditional route most casuals expect. Even a recent toyetic promo for ONE where the actors play with the toys with some football players, among them is the one who calls himself Megatron, & the players express mild skepticism on an origin story, when they all know Optimus & Megatron are mortal enemies so why bother having them be friends previously or some such. I can always appreciate when a studio expresses self awareness and happily pokes fun at itself.

It also feels like they’ve realized they’ve both overexposed certain characters and also realized certain characters don’t work.

I think RotB and Skybound’s willingness to kill off Bumblebee shows even Hasbro might be sick of him now. His absence so far in early CyberWorld leaks seem to point in this direction too. A recent promotion and opening animation with Squad Busters doesn’t have Bee, but instead uses Elita. It also keeps Megatron and the Decepticons as the villains.

I don’t think Bee is going away, since he’s a major component of TFONE, Reactivate (whenever that sucker comes out), and that separate racing (?) game thing, but outside of EarthSpark, it does feels like they’re trying to move away from him a little. Cyberverse also sticks out as it’s pretty clear the writers wanted nothing to do with Bee after S1, but Hasbro marketing and rebranding made Bumblebee a huge focus, confusing matters, as despite the rebranding, Bee’s role had greatly diminished. (Like realistically, it should’ve been Bumblebee leading the Autobots during the Quint occupation, not Hot Rod if Hasbro was that insistent about it.)

Elita is also an interesting change. For years, Hasbro seemed content to ignore her (and her squad) in favor of Arcee, with Hasbro & IDW trying to beef up female presence with “OCs” Windblade & Pyra Magna among others to little fanfare. Indeed, Windy appears to be benched in favor of Elita-One who has gotten more attention post Netflix WFC (that god awful show did one thing right and it was bring back a Female Autobot people actually like to complement Arcee).

I stand by the series still has a villain problem, and EarthSpark didn’t help by trying to make the Decepticons sympathetic moody Autobots, but also not properly taking advantage of Mandroid, Croft and (so far) the Quintessons. This has been an issue for the bulk of IDW, Cyberverse, & RotB as well, by either omitting Megatron, trying to redeem Megatron into a good guy and/or his replacements not being up to snuff/killed off too quickly. Scourge & Mandroid were steps in the right direction but alas. The Quintessons are also a step in the right direction but Hasbro seems semi hesitant to do much with them, despite their increased presence. (I’m leaning towards it being most toys related to them don’t sell, which is what will make a future Void Rivals toy line interesting…)

So now we’re at CyberWorld.

The lack of Bee in favor of Mirage due to his popularity from RotB seems telling among the Autobots, though we don’t have Elita so far in this series curiously.

All we have to go on Decepticon wise is Galvatron, Scorponok, and Sky-Byte, but that’s still a pretty big change up.

While they still have relevance in TFONE, Screamer & The Waves’ roles in EarthSpark are mostly minor, with Starscream as the standout (in a bad fan fic kind of way). Skybound mostly has ignored Megatron, slowly building up to him in stuff like Cobra Commander, with Starscream getting the crap beaten out of him, and as of the recent issue, Shockwave’s fate isn’t looking too good, leaving Soundwave. It does feel like Hasbro is willing to experiment more outside of Screamer & The Waves, given their absence this far in CyberWorld. Galvatron is also a surprise, given the “Let’s make Megatron an Antihero!” phase started in IDW, that carried over to stuff like Prime Wars, WFC, CV & ES.

I feel like using Galvatron is an attempt to both move away from Megatron for a bit, but to also still technically use him (as a villain) as usually Galvatron IS Megatron. Scorponok, at least in comics and the Headmasters anime, is typically a main villain, but how that works here we don’t know yet. He’s either G1 Marvel Scorponok or BW Scorponok, there’s very little inbetween.

So I think what we have is a big change that is going back to basics like Skybound did, but is willing to still experiment with other characters to add variety. Plus let’s be honest, having multiple Megatron toys from three different things with little visual difference is a sign of stagnation. Shaking it up with Galvatron is an improvement post TFONE.

[mybrainproblems]

hello, i'm finales georg...

i don't want to further clutter up the notes on this post while responding to the tags below but the persistence of the "finale is short/scenes are missing/extra ad break” conspiracies drives me absolutely bananas when i've watched the finale ten times and have posted about this A LOT trying to clear things up. (disclaimer that yes, i'm a goddamn destiel shipper but i care about Facts above all.)

ok but this is weird because i'd swear the episode was shorter (11 missing scenes!) but okay. maybe we all mandela effected ourselves into #beleving that. because it felt shorter. but i will die on the hill that it had another ad break. i understand this person has the thing #recorded with ads so i am thinking maybe different ad breaks in different idk time zones??? #because the finale did air an hour earlier in canada so maybe idk i am reaching here but maybe different states or whatever had different #ad breaks??? as for the last minute changes - wasn't the cover band asked for permission to use their version of carry on like a week before #the thing aired??? so even if the episode was 42 minutes and had no additional ad break - which i am side eying but lets say all was normal #i will always say they were changing thing until the absolute last minute (carry on my wayward son X 2 #the crew on the bridge which is not only giant 4th wall breaking but also wow they really got all those people in one place in times of #covid???) #anyway. tinfoil hat stays on sorry guys :/ (via @officialmisha)

short and snarky: there are plenty of real and sourced examples of network homophobia and scripted/directed destiel scenes being cut to point to. we don’t need to make this stuff up just bc the finale wasn’t what we wanted. so it’s not the mandela effect — it’s ppl repeating a conspiracy/rumor bc it supports their narrative and it’s easier and more fun to repeat something that supports a narrative they already believe (misha or something destiel was cut) vs the boring act of fact checking.

longer circumspect answer with links bc like many ppl i am in my debunking era and i rewatched "roblox_oof" last night.

like i said. i've watched the finale ten times. i’ve gone over the episode with a fine toothed comb and posted a detailed breakdown of timing marks on my blog. it’s actually extremely obvious where the ad breaks are once you know roughly where to look for them (they have a longer fade to black instead of a quick cut scene change). there’s no room for extra ad breaks and i think this conspiracy/rumor persists in part bc the episode feels so sparse in terms of cast and the fact that the episode’s momentum hits a barn post (and rebar) less than 20min into an hour-long programming block.

also i’m begging ppl to actually look at that timing mark post. it’s very straightforward and i spent a lot of time on it. i don’t care if ppl plagiarize it at this point if it means this conspiracy stops. i've got almost every second accounted for.

the "eleven missing scenes" that you're thinking of are probably from the finale script of questionable authenticity that @spnscripthunt acquired back in 2021 which can be found here. it's dated as the “final draft” from 11 sep 2020 and filming on 15x20 wrapped on 10 sep 2020. as noted at the bottom of this superwiki page "[the] script came from someone claiming to have been the person who did the closed captions for the show in Russia. There are some indications that it possibly may not be authentic, but this has not been confirmed."

if we go with the possibility that this was a transcript meant for subtitles, the "omitted" scenes were probably written but never filmed since it's the "final draft" and not a color revision (blue, green, yellow, etc). unfortunately, i’ve lost track of where i read it and a preliminary duckduckgo search isn’t bringing it up bc there's a program for script writing called final draft, but iirc the “final draft” version of a script is a transcript of what was filmed (e.g. there are parts of that 15x20 script that ended up being deleted scenes on the DVD). spnscripthunt also has an example of a confirmed final draft for 09x02 (funnily enough, also a dabb-penned ep). if anyone can confirm with a source that i have the purpose of the “final draft” version designation wrong, please let me know! i love being proven wrong with Facts.

i do want to acknowledge that the two “final drafts” do look different from each other and the 15x20 one doesn't look like a “real” final draft script since it lacks the revision/versioning dates that a script would normally have on the cover page. it could be that it was intended for subtitles; there's the chance it's been re-typed to anonymize it if there was anything indicating who the "owner" was, tho that seems a wee bit cloak and dagger to me. and again: it's considered of questionable authenticity. there are some things that don't quite line up but oh dear god i don't want to get even further out into the weeds than i already am.

i won't disagree that it's weird as hell that neoni only got asked about using their cover seven days prior to the episode airing (tiktok here). my personal theory is that they were hoping to get a more expensive song (maybe a zepp song, idk) and didn't manage to secure the rights in the end. again: this is pure conjecture on my part! but i could absolutely see someone working on the show hearing neoni’s cover and liking it and then maybe they were using it as a placeholder until it got down to the wire and they had to make a call/send the ep to networks. because yes, it is baffling they played a song and then a cover of it with only a 40 second break between. (i do actually really like the neoni cover! the placement is just weird and i think it could have worked if they had the kansas version at the beginning and closed with neoni's full cover.)

as to the 4th wall break COVID stuff: robert singer talked with variety magazine about filming the last two episodes and the logistics of filming during a pandemic. whether they should have been filming during a pandemic is a separate discussion but their use of office vs set pods, strict quarantining and daily testing meant that they had zero positive tests in the month they were filming (18 aug to 10 sep). so given all that, i personally don’t think it’s totally out of pocket to have everyone standing outdoors on a bridge for maybe an hour to get a drone shot of them together. (i won’t get into incubation periods and viral load, but if everyone tested negative that day and every day for a month prior, it was a fairly low risk scene to film outdoors and for all we know everyone was masked until the last possible second. there were plenty of outdoor masked protests in 2020 that weren't superspreader events.)

and before anyone brings up “but misha was in vancouver!” i know someone who looked into it and they said no dice, nothing matched up between the backgrounds in those pics and places in vancouver. his statements about “us” going back to set over the summer were pretty generic in hindsight and “we”/"us" could be him or the spn crew generally. unfortunately i’m not able to find those tweets but the use of “we” was likely so as not to give away he wouldn’t be returning to set. (bc we were absolutely casbaited!) and bc it comes up a lot: the "onion field pic" was from when they were filming 15x17 and was not taken while filming 15x19 and 15x20.

besides, it would be ridiculous to go through the financial and logistical headaches of bringing someone into the country to film during a pandemic, only to cut their scenes in the end! honestly, the script is pretty tight when the scenes are given so much breathing room! the only thing i could see being further cut down is The Monologue and even then, i don’t think there was any intent to cut it down given it was filmed in fairly long takes.

i’ve said it many times before, but i believe the finale was fucked long before they returned to set. walker got the green light in sep 2019 and it was being marketed heavily as a “follow on” show to spn given jared’s involvement. the demo they were courting for walker has little to no overlap with the demo for destiel fans — why would they want a finale that catered to a demo they weren't interested in courting? we just went through a historic double strike that exposed so much of the rot of business interests overriding creative vision. this isn't completely unfounded conjecture.

i will not apologize for the length of this bc i wanted to be thorough, but i do want to give context that i think the reason these conspiracies and rumors grind my gears so much is because anyone can fact check all of this. the truth is out there and absolutely none of it is that hard to find. the most time consuming/difficult part of this was finding someone who had a DVR’d copy of the finale from when it aired live and they actually found me themselves after i’d been low key asking around for a year!

and like. i get it. conspiracies are fun. but there are so many sourced instances of network homophobia and destiel being cut that it's like. why is this something folks are hanging onto? the cw is notorious for having upper level meddling with finales bc there's a follow-on show they want to shuffle fans along to and spn is no exception.

[firecooking]

Hello. Sorry if someone has already asked before, but how many languages do you speak? I’ve been reading through your TUGS series on AO3 and noticed you write dialogue in English, French, and Hebrew. That and using old 1900s slang… it’s such a neat facet of your works—it provides cultural richness and makes the stories and characters feel much more colorful. But it did get me wondering about the author!

Heyo!

Actually no one has asked me about this before!

I actually only 'fluently' speak English [tho that could be contested with my grammar and spelling habits], altho I'm somewhat capable of conversation in German and can do basic exchanges in Spanish. I've completed most of the duolingo course in Esperanto but my recall on it is rusty, and I've spent time learning Welsh, Canadian French, and Klingon lol

Fun fact about me is I had to teach myself to read and write [educational neglect for students with special education plans is VERY real]. All of the grammar and writing knowledge I have is from books I've read and my German classes in high school.

Most of the languages I use in my fics are very carefully translated! I think any successful internet user who wants to interact with non English speaking areas should be able to read up and learn the translation rules for any language you wish to 'speak' with. It makes it very easy to open a translation dictionary and then get the result you want! Other languages don't work like English you have to learn how to get it done.

That even goes for other ways we used to speak English! We used to speak almost a completely different language mechanically 100 years ago. It is a very careful balance of writing accurate dialogue in the fics where you both use the English lexicon of the time period, get the voice of the character across, try not to have the characters say anything out right offensive [altho that's a touchy subject, words I find offensive may not be for others or others might be offended by what I deem safe to write, its a very careful balance], and omitting words that meanings have changed significantly [like awesome was a very common 1920s word, but you can't exactly have Captain Zero saying that, it'd sound wrong to 2020's ears]

I take my historical research very seriously! I am now very disabled and kinda a loser; so I'm home bound and bored a lot of the time. Things like my fic and art are pretty much my full time time occupier, so I absolutely love spending time getting nit pikcey and specific!

I'm so glad you are enjoying my work! I hope that going forwards I can continue to excite and provide good fic, lord knows the TUGS fandom needs it. Feel free to drop a line any time! I love answering questions about my AU and TUGS stuff in general! Hell ask me questions if you need help with your own stuff haha

[badaziraphaletakes]

In which some poor innocent unsuspecting reader submitted an ask and I respond by throwing an entire textbook at them

Like seriously i won’t even be upset if no one reads this PhD dissertation, like actually what is wrong with me omg

The ask:

I want to start by saying I love this account and really appreciate the rebuttals I see here to some of the messed up stuff the fandom’s spit out over the past few years. That being said, the most recent post about “the creepiest take you’ve ever seen,” was one I disagreed with strongly. It’s entirely normal to enjoy watching media where characters have breakdowns. It is not a desire to see a person breakdown. It is a desire to watch a good story.

(Edit: Just realized I somehow omitted to include the full text of the ask here. I apologize for the error! Will fix it soon. -Mod X)

My response:

Hi and thank you for your kind words! (Also idk why there is this huge gap in the text here, sorry haha!) If it were a necessary part of the story, or a part of the story that made sense, I would agree. But it’s not necessary (esp not at this point in the story) and therefore wouldn’t be “good”, if we are defining good art as being emotional truthful, which I imagine is a pretty uncontroversial definition.

Side note: We already saw him have this exact shattering breakdown in Uz. So that renders most of what I am about to say (and arguably some of what you have said) somewhat moot. But I’m going to continue anyway because some of the points brought up here touch on issues that I think bear re-visiting often.

It’s cathartic, it’s engaging, and it helps people who’ve been through the same thing see themselves reflected. For example, I like watching someone on tv hit rock bottom with their addiction because I’ve been through that, and seeing them finally realize they have to work on recovery and actually do it is motivating and empowering.

I’m so sorry you’ve been through that. I haven’t (although I am estranged from an entire side of my family due to alcoholism and meth addiction, which is a whole fun thing), so I can’t comment on this too much.

But addiction is not the same as an ab*sive relationship. (I do have knowledge of those, both from life experience and from my previous job in ab*se research. I edited a newsletter about family violence research for several years.) Seeing a person suffering from addiction realize they want to work on recovery, and realize that the substance they are addicted to is messing up their life, can make sense. Especially if they're in a place where they're able to work on it and have the opportunity to try to change.

But seeing an ab*se survivor “realize they need to get away from their ab*ser because they’re evil and have a breakdown about it” doesn’t make sense, because being trapped in an absive situation is not about “motivation” or what they think about the abser or even, really, about "empowerment". (Side note that word is thrown a lot to delude women into thinking our capitalist system is working for us rather than oppressing us. But I digress.) It boils down to the fact that they are in danger if they leave. The situation is not within their control.

(This next part is not directed at you, but at the general readership, in case this is helpful discussion for anyone: A lot of addictions aren’t within people's control at all either. It depends very much on the drug we’re talking about, the health of the individual, the quantity and duration of the addiction, whether the person has access to the healthcare they need to be cured, and whether there’s a way for them to get free from the broader societal dysfunctions that led to them being trapped in this situation in the first place.)

Also, with addiction, people can absolutely get past that without losing their sense of self and their identity. If they go through that kind of crisis in the process of healing from addiction, I would argue that something is very wrong. (Not with them, but with the society around them). In a best-case scenario, a person suffering from addiction would have access to the kind of mental and physical healthcare and support system that lets you get free from that without a shattering breakdown or loss of sense of self.

Besides, not everyone who has an addiction has toxic beliefs about themselves or their own identity or other people, etc etc. (Babies who are born addicted come to mind, if we want to talk about the most extreme example.) So I find the idea that addiction is down to toxic beliefs about one's self very suspect. I would argue that 95% of the time, addiction happens because your life sucks. The mental health community is starting to have this conversation about depression and anxiety - Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to work on one's "limiting beliefs" and "destructive thought patterns" can only do so much to help you feel better when your whole life is shit anyway. And it can actually make it WORSE if the victim is made to believe that their depression is the fault of their "Faulty thoughts" rather than a reasonable reaction to a shitty situation. Not necessarily saying we should throw CBT out the window altogether, but I am saying that mental healthcare will be a LOT more effective when it learns to truly take the broader societal context into account. I suspect, I hope, we'll soon be having a simialr conversation around addiction.)

And that’s doubly the case for ab*se survivors. They’re not stuck in that situation because there’s something wrong with them that they need to fix. They’re stuck in that situation because there’s something wrong with the ab*ser.

Regardless of the victim’s personal worth as an individual, regardless of whether they’re a good person or what-have-you, they don’t deserve to be ab*sed.

(I'm just waiting to hear about how some therapist tells a victim to work on their "limiting belief" that they need to stay with their ab*ser in order not to be killed, and/or tells them that fearing their ab*ser will kill them is a "cognitive distortion", and tells them to stand up to their ab*ser and/or leave, and then the ab*ser kills them. But I digress.)

And the loss of self when separating from a toxic system that’s defined your whole life is a real thing some people go through. It’s not bad consider that Aziraphale could also go through that, or to want to see that experience reflected.

I want to be very clear that I don’t have the smallest objection to people wanting to see that in a show. But a. that’s not what the person was saying, and b. they were also saying it’s necessary. IT’S NOT. I can’t emphasize this enough.

Loss of self is the worst-case scenario for how something like that goes. Nothing good comes from that. That is a side effect of ab*se (because the ab*ser’s the one who says that “Everything you are is bound up in me and you’re nothing with me"), not an integral part of the process of getting away.

Trauma is not necessary for character growth.

The way these things should go is that the person is able to gradually and mindfully work through the beliefs that are poisoning them with the help of a therapist, trusted friends, etc.

I know what I’m talking about. I worked in trauma research for over seven years. Please trust me on this one.

And again, Aziraphale can’t “separate” from them anyway. There’s nowhere he can go where they won’t find him. So his beliefs are irrelevant to his situation. And if the show implies that his beliefs “need to change” as part of the earth being set free from heaven-hell’s tyranny, or that he “needs to change” in order to be free, I will be writing a strongly-worded letter to the creators.

But more importantly, *they didn’t just say giddy.* They also said apprehensive. Perhaps they’re apprehensive because they know it could be painful to watch. Or because they don’t want to see it handled poorly.

“Giddily apprehensive” sounds an awful lot like “excited” to me. I admit it is ambiguous, though, so I’ll give you that one. I maintain that the OP expressed themselves with an exceptional lack of grace, however. And fwiw, they’d be FAR from the first person to want to see Aziraphale suffer because they are mad at him. I think I have good reason to believe that's what they're getting at here, given how many people in the poster's orbit say the same kinds of things and how many other things I've seen the OP say that are along those lines. I acknowledge I should have made that clearer in my original post.

They aren’t giving this advice (if one could call it that) to a human. They’re saying they’re excited to see a character breakdown. Character arcs like that are common and enticing for good reason.

I have yet to see a reason why I should believe that the things people say about Aziraphale are different than the things they say about people in real life.

I would point you to a couple lines down where you say yourself that we respond to characters the same way we respond to real people.

Personal growth ≠ character growth.

But what makes a good character is that they act like real people.

As an audience, character growth (even negative) is engaging.

Yes, absolutely. But we can absolutely do character growth in a way that does not spread harmful mindsets or misinformation about what ab*se and recovery from ab*se looks like. In fact, I would argue that character growth can’t happen if the writer doesn’t write the characters to behave in a way that is realistic to real life.

Characters follow the same rules, though. We respond to characters the same way we respond to real people. The same general rules of personal development and so forth apply.

The idea that “Aziraphale realizes his ab*sers are terrible” is something he needs to do for his “personal development” is highly objectionable. He doesn’t need to grow in this area. He just needs his ab*sers to leave him alone. Side note: We should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he already does think they’re terrible and only stays with them because he is terrified. Even if this hadn’t been strongly and frequently hinted at in every episode going all the way back to S1E1 - almost every scene, in fact - we should still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, even if we say, for the sake of argument, that Aziraphale was a terrible, awful, horrible person - I know you’re not saying that, to be clear - even then, he still wouldn’t “need to realize his ab*sers are terrible” or “have a complete breakdown” or “lose himself” in order to grow. That's not how growth works. The best growth happens when people are at peace and safe and loved. Not frightened and confused and alone. He never chose them in the first place, he never wanted to be on their side. If he were left alone, he would just spend the rest of eternity reading his books and eating Eccles cakes and snuggling with his former-demon. That’s who he really is. There’s nothing about him as a person that needs to change. I agree a story where a person loses their sense of self after escaping from an ab*sive system would be interesting to watch, but I maintain that it does not make sense for the context of this particular story. And, such a story would NEED to make clear that the person wasn’t bad or wrong for deriving some part of their sense of self from the ab*ser and that they shouldn’t have had to have a catastrophic breakdown in order to develop their own sense of self. No one should have to go through that.

It’s not the same thing as asking for personal growth from a real human being.

Good characters do not operate according to different emotional and psychological rules than we do, though. If they didn't, we wouldn’t have millions of people sobbing about how real Aziraphale and Crowley feel to them. We would be the biggest dodos in the world if we were reacting this way to paper dolls 😄

Comparing the desire to see a character go through a dramatic storyline like that (and to come out of it strong and shining) to fundamentalist rhetoric is… just total bullshit.

You said this blog has been a good place for you and I want it to continue to be that way for you. So I want to give you a chance to revisit this part and see if you can say something more constructive. Because I've gotta admit, this really made me upset and I can't let it go without saying something. It’s not cool to call someone’s commentary “bullsh*t” like this.

I heard the line “we must die to ourselves” many, many times from the high-control religion of my childhood. It is a classic cult line. Hence why so many cults have "burial and rebirth" rituals, make people change their names, etc.

I am not just making up a comparison. This is a real phenomenon. Controlling ab*sers are the ones who’ve given us this idea that “death of the self” is character growth. It’s not. Character growth happens in spite of those excruciating emotional crises, not because of them.

Growing as a person is supposed to feel good overall. Not always easy, but on the whole, it should be a positive experience.

Also - Again, they said he “needs” to do it.

And they didn’t say anything about Aziraphale “coming out strong and shining”. You added that in. I think it's wonderful that you want to see that for him (so do I) but that’s not what this person was saying

If they'd said that, I wouldn't object to it at all. But they didn't. That part was left out. Which I think may be very telling in itself.

There are a myriad of reasons someone could have that desire, including having gone through something similar themselves.

Having gone through something similar doesn’t necessarily mean it makes sense for another character. It also doesn’t mean it’s necessary. And having been through something that went a certain way does NOT mean that it happening that way makes sense for someone else.

Deconstruction from a religious upbringing is different from leaving an ab*sive relationship

Aziraphale doesn’t have religious trauma. (I’m not going to talk much about religious trauma and deconstruction here, because it’s outside the scope of this blog, largely because - as attested by no less an authority than Neil Himself - Good Omens is not about religion. But I’ll say a little bit.)

Heaven and hell are not a “religion” in his world - they’re real. His fear of hell (and of heaven) is absolutely, one hundred percent, completely legitimate and appropriate, and NOT something he should be “reasoned” out of. Saying otherwise gives “your ab*ser isn’t actually that evil and scary”. But regardless, in either scenario, that kind of traumatic personal crisis is not a necessary part of the healing process. My heart aches for all the people whose deconstruction process was emotionally shattering. But what makes it ache even more is how for so many of them, the takeaway is somehow that that kind of crisis is necessary - rather than "dear god, i hope no one else ever has to go through that kind of hideous experience to get away from their shitty religion", which surely is what the takeaway should be (assuming there even is a lesson to be learned at all from an experience like that, which is doubtful) - and they go on to demand it of other survivors and gatekeep against people who haven't gone through the exact same thing they did in the process of getting away.

How, HOW did we get to a point where so many people’s deconstruction is a fucked-up, scarring experience that we think it’s inevitable for deconstruction to be that way????? I grieve.

I know the idea of killing one’s old self is inherently wrong to many people.

It’s not about whether it’s *wrong*. If that's valid for someone and they get where they need to be - you do you. It’s about the fact that it’s painful and it’s unnecessary to the process of growth.

Furthermore, it is the kind of thing ab*sers WANT to see happen to their victims when they leave. They want victims to think that they have to have that kind of crisis if they want to leave them. Because then they’re less likely to leave. When we encourage that kind of thinking, we are playing directly into their hands.

What should happen is that the victim should be given the opportunity to realize that all along there was much more to them than their ab*ser.

I don’t personally desire to watch Aziraphale do that, especially because there are so many wonderful aspects of the Angel he’s been since the beginning

Agreed.

But fwiw, this is giving a faint whiff of perfect victim syndrome. Even if he were an asshole, he still deserves to just have his ab*sers leave him alone, not to have some kind of shattering, soul-crushing emotional breakdown. They will always, always be worse than him.

but it’s not wrong to want to see that. People do go through it, and their stories are incredibly compelling.

I don’t disagree. For me it’s rather about the place this is coming from. OP was saying it’s necessary. There’s a difference between wanting to see a show address this issue overall because it’s interesting, and demanding that a specific character go through it because you think it’s necessary, or that their process of leaving and healing won't be legitimate (or whatever word we wanna use) if it doesn't happen.

And, as you said, it doesn’t make sense for Aziraphale. If the character is an asshole, I’d be able to see it a little more (although again, I still very much question the entire idea in the first place) But he's not an asshole. I find anyone’s thinking it “makes sense” for him to be highly questionable.

I know Aziraphale is much more than a character to many people

Speaking as a (very, very, very slightly, lol) professional writer and actor - every character should be “more than a character”, if they’re well-written. They should feel real if the writer and/or actor has done their job well. I like NG's line that "If you write someone who is utterly and completely themselves, you get people coming up to you and going 'Oh my God, you wrote my life!'

a desire to watch him go through a psychological breakdown is not some poorly concealed desire to watch real people go through that.

It may or may not be. I agree that it isn't always.

In this person’s case, though, I very much did get concerning vibes. Poorly concealed. (As an ab*se survivor, you start to know the vibe of victim-blamers after awhile.)

Regardless, though, the way we respond to characters is the way we respond to people in real life. Story is a primary vehicle through which people learn how to interact with one another and their environment. If it wasn’t, discussing media along these lines would be pointless, and I'd just spend all my time talking about how good David Tennant looks in those tight pants 😁 Or, probably, I would take up a different hobby altogether.

I wouldn’t have wasted my time starting this blog if the things people say about this story and especially about Aziraphale didn’t have real-world applications (not to mention making a lot of ab*se survivors feel very unsafe in the fandom - before we turned off anonymous asks, I got an average of two messages a day from ab*se survivors and other oppressed people telling them how this blog has made them feel so much safer in the fandom) - and if their views about the characters didn’t mirror the kinds of things they’d say about people in real life. (All the anti-Aziraphale autiphobic takes come to mind.) I flatter myself I have enough judgment that those takes wouldn't have troubled me so deeply if they weren't reflective of real-world societal problems and indicative of problematic attitudes in the people who write them.

In this case, the wording is identical to the kinds of problematic things people say about real-life victims/survivors. Yes, the person may not actually consciously want (or want at all) to see real-life ab*se victims/survivors suffer. But I absolutely, one hundred per cent guarantee you that anyone saying this has some major problematic biases/assumptions that are contributing to how ab*se survivors are maligned, degraded, and oppressed in our society. (I never want to see Disabled people suffer, but if I say ableist things, I’m contributing to it whether I mean to or not. I may not want to see women suffer, I am a woman, well more or less anyway lol, and I've identified as a feminist my entire adult life, but nevertheless there have certainly been times in the past when I've said sexist things. It's something all of us will always have to be vigilant against in ourselves. I suspect at this point I'm preaching to the choir, because you do not strike me at all as a bigoted or ignorant person, but I figured I'd re-iterate all that again anyway, because screaming it through a megaphone as often as possible is what this blog is for lol. :)

And what’s worse, they are spreading that rhetoric. I’ll be damned if I’ll let it go by without saying something.

Hope this makes sense and cleared some things up.

With love and respect,

Mod X.

[ntktblog]

Backbone chat 1/29

So, I'm posting this on a sideblog that way any notes won't get in my main blog and my non-SL friends don't need to deal with this. I am not mad, I'm just documenting everything, but if I got my $2k back and they admit they fucked up with this WHOLE PR Crisis, I would not complain.

Let's start with the basics:

TL;DR: Backbone got caught using AI (source: River's Bsky post)

Read more for sanity and not long dash scrolling. Line breaks are because Tumblr hates long form, nothing has been omitted or changed.

This morning I thought I'd be a little catty but the group chat ate my message and the opportunity was missed. Then River was ejected from the group. So I rolled up my sleeves and got to work, deciding to be genuine and ask about it.

[16:09] Skye Winchester: I'm late to this conversation but how much of Backbone's products contain gen AI and why wasn't it disclosed? [16:21] Skye Winchester: (my chat dropped, sorry if this is sent twice/thrice) -- The silence is alarming tbh. There is no ethical gen AI, it all scrapes work by actual humans who are not compensated for it. If there are products using gen AI, they need to be disclosed so people who want to support artists will not be tricked into purchasing them. [16:39] Skye Winchester: I'm taking the silence for what it is. I guess in a world where everything is user created, it's disappointing that such a big vendor would rely on computer generated art that actively steals from actual artists in order to make money, and then go and charge like 5-10$ USD to sell it to unaware consumers. It's disingenuous at best, and exploitative at worst. All AI is a dangerous tool we don't know how to wield yet, and we're slinging stolen art across the metaverse with no consequences.

The response was deader than a doornail and the chat kept crashing. Unsure if this was intentional attempt to 'mute participant' or if the chat really wasn't about my life today (assuming the latter) And then...

Someone sent their weird little AI bot after me at the same time. IMs from non-friends don't work well on Skye cause SL thinks it's a fun little game, so I got two... but but none from the admin.

Let me repeat that: I DID NOT GET ANY IMS FROM AN ADMIN. Anyways, back to the dumpsterfire. The Clowns decided to audition for the circus.

[16:40] ItsIntuitive: How do ya'll like your steak? [16:41] Chrissy Rhiano: medium is the way to go :) [16:41] VolkKoroleva: What happened? O-O [16:41] Houdis Hancroft: medium-rare…ONLY [16:41] BrianA Corleone: medium well is the only right answer [16:41] SangriaKalakaua: I'd have medium well. [16:41] Samson Rowley: waves hi [16:41] BrianA Corleone waves back [16:41] Kirra Ayashi: I agree with Jettt Medium Rare for life lol [16:41] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): I like my steak like I like my art…hot and stolen! [16:42] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): So I used to be scared of ordering my meat with any pink and I started doing so a couple days ago and LOVE IT. [16:42] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Medium well <3 [16:42] Oakan Corvinus: Med rare [16:42] LilTasty Pudding: I like how ya'll are glossing over people bring up the concern of gen Ai stealing from creators who actually work hard to make the things they make. This group is unhinged, I'll see my way out. [16:42] Ŝɑɱѕση Ẅɑуηε ℜσωℓεу (samson.rowley): best way to have it right [16:42] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): It really is [16:42] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): tears for not being heard [16:42] Gemifer Saphir: I like the rainbow effect thats on slices of meat, looks really amazing. [16:43] LeoProspero: its almost like when you order BBQ, if the restaurant puts sauce on everything, its defnitely n ot good. [16:43] Skye Winchester: It's not their art being stolen, they don't know any artists or do art themselves. That's the sad part. [16:43] genemc: Liltasty, it's best you and Sky take that stuff elsewhere [16:43] Dr Sangria NἶօɾŚαnкợƒα-Kalākaua (sangriakalakaua): Steak with a little pink is easier on the digestive system than steak well done, great choice.

[16:43] BrianA Corleone: wait, what? backbone is using AI theft? [16:43] Ƙαтєяιηα Ƙ. Mιѕfιт (volkkoroleva): I am unsure of what happened o-o [16:43] Skye Winchester: Or what, Calvin? Are we a sundown town suddenly? [16:43] Calvin (genemc): I'll get my steak mid-rare at a place that knows how to properly cook… Medium otherwise [16:43] Skye Winchester: I asked how many products Backbone has used Gen AI on since their latest desk thing has it, and why it was not disclosed. [16:44] YuriBloodfang: Unless it can be proven to be AI art, I don't believe people when they scream it. Seen actual artists accused of using AI when they have the STREAM VIDEOS of them creating the work. [16:44] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I am scared to order rare, I'll have to work up to it [16:44] Calvin (genemc): oh, I won't go rare [16:44] Avery Bae: Rare or medium rare has more flavor imo [16:44] Skye Winchester: It was confirmed to be Gen aI. [16:45] Skye Winchester: By Kiana. [16:45] SufferingFrom Lockjaw: I like my steak blue. [16:45] Calvin (genemc): Let's not feed the trolls [16:45] Riley Amore: You mean still MOOING! lol [16:45] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Blue? [16:45] Leannan McC. Trevellion (sufferingfrom.lockjaw): Yeps:D [16:45] Skye Winchester: No trolls here, just someone who has spent a lot of money and should be allowed to know what the money bought. [16:45] Leannan McC. Trevellion (sufferingfrom.lockjaw): as my Momma used to say, "Just cut its butt off, wave it at the grill three times, and give it to her." [16:45] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): cries for Skye [16:46] Avery Għøυł-Bae (avery.bae): You like to make sure it's still walking across the plate lol [16:46] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): anyway…steak [16:46] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): delicious [16:46] LesliePlain1: why use AI on it? all I can see that could even be worth the effort is the screeen background [16:46] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): cries for Skye [16:46] Maple Moose (drakona.lewellen): Can easily see it n the Peek-a-Boo box and the Glitch. Glitch is an older item so they've been at it for a while

[16:46] Skye Winchester: That was where the gen AI was used, Leslie. And looking at some other stuff now seems suspect, so it should be disclosed. [16:47] Neramew: O.o the new gamer zone is the secretlab desk, that's pretty neat [16:47] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): What kind of jam or jelly on ya toast? [16:47] Avery Għøυł-Bae (avery.bae): Blackberry [16:47] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): Crunchy or Smooth Peanutbutter [16:47] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): CRUNCHY [16:47] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): hell yea [16:47] Skye Winchester: Changing the subject doesn't stop genuine questions, nor does 'cries for' or threatening us to 'take it elsewhere' [16:48] Atheria Vampurr: boysenberry jam [16:48] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Oh and mention of the gamer zone set, I love it so much [16:48] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): more tears…for you know who [16:48] Calvin (genemc): Trolls don't ask genuine questions, they stir the pot for the attention and to cause drama for others…. don't feed 'em [16:48] Leo Prospero (leoprospero): Ai is all over SL now, let it go. [16:48] Nera Ryuka (neramew): I kinda want them to make the standing desk version now for the new release [16:48] Atheria Għøυł-Bae (atheria.vampurr): and smooth peanut butter [16:48] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): feed em jelly [16:49] Skye Winchester: Yes, I paid 2k to get into this group 3 years ago just to troll it now asking about gen ai. [16:49] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): standing desk? Like no seta? [16:49] Nera Ryuka (neramew): Yeee [16:49] Nera Ryuka (neramew): It looks exactly like the magnus desk from secret lab, they have a pro version that rises! [16:49] Leslie Plain (leslieplain1) looks baffled. "yeah, there's a tonne of PD art they could have used that would have taken nothing away from it"

[16:49] Skye Winchester: I'm asking a question and you're all thinking it's funny to troll tells me you don't care and that's fine, but I do. [16:50] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I think that be cool, I'd love to see animation on the desks alone. [16:50] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): You are asking the wrong people Skye. [16:50] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): I love there game sets [16:50] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): gamer [16:50] Skye Winchester: I am asking in the group, for Backbone, about Backbone products [16:51] Skye Winchester: Whereas y'all are talking about… barbecue to detract from the question. [16:51] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Me too, they are so lovely [16:51] Avery Għøυł-Bae (avery.bae): You may have better luck going directly to the creator [16:51] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): ^^^^ [16:51] Calvin (genemc): mmmmm…. BBQ…. I could go for some brisket about now [16:51] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I'm just a consumer ^-^ [16:51] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Ooo brisket [16:51] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive) drools like homer [16:51] Skye Winchester: I don't have IMs on from non friends. And it doesn't turn on, call it a silly SL glitch. So messaging is pointless. [16:51] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): I now want steak and PBJ [16:52] Ŝɑɱѕση Ẅɑуηε ℜσωℓεу (samson.rowley): oh me too [16:52] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I want another juicy steak [16:52] Avery Għøυł-Bae (avery.bae): Then that sounds like a you problem

[16:52] Calvin (genemc): this weekend would be a good time to smoke something [16:52] commandhat: I logged in late enough that I missed Skye's actual question. What was it? [16:52] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Lemme get a plate [16:53] Skye Winchester: How many previous backbone products use Gen AI and why wasn't it disclosed? [16:53] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): ion know [16:53] Calvin (genemc): We're customers, stop being a troll [16:53] Skye Winchester: So am I, Calvin [16:54] Skye Winchester: Again, paid 2k 3 years ago and have bought plenty since then [16:54] Katty TopHat: better question, how many creators in SL use it and don't disclose it? Probably most? I mean….I [16:54] Katty TopHat: oops…not sure they need to disclose it [16:54] Caine MacIntyre (commandhat) blinks, tries to think back… [16:54] Tersa Beverly: eh. probably because when it started it wasnt considered the issue it is now by those that dislike it. and really if that kind of thing is problematic for someone, its up to the consumer to check on the things that bother them and if they find a product that doesnt align with their values they are free to go elsewhere [16:54] Leslie Plain (leslieplain1): sigh, gonna have to reconsider buying any more products here, a pity, they do good work [16:54] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): Look here, Katty! You REALLY care about this! I know you do :p [16:54] Calvin (genemc): Do you go into the grocery store and ask customers where the beef comes from or do you call their corp office? Please stop the drama [16:55] Katty TopHat: lol Jett…mhmm!

Dun dun dun, and then--

As you can see, there is not a single admin/mod in this chat.

[16:55] Skye Winchester: For what? [16:55] Skye Winchester: Jules, answer for what? Asking a question? No one replied except trolls? [16:56] Katty TopHat: I replied…and not a troll.I'm saying I don't see the need for creators to disclose that. Who else discloses it? [16:56] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I joined the group when it was free some time ago, I think my first purchase was Gamer's Heaven Work Station Set [16:56] Jett Hancroft (houdis.hancroft): cries for the trolls [16:56] Caine MacIntyre (commandhat): IIRC they disclosed they were using AI to complete a few of the features in the Winter skybox, Northern Lights Hideaway. They used AI to generate snow textures, to make the textures on the rezzer for the lights themselves, and to create concept art for the house itself, but the furniture models were hand-made. I think that's the first piece they actually used AI for. [16:56] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): I couldn't tell you my 1st purchase. I'm an old SL lady. [16:57] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): oh i feel that in my soul riley [16:57] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): i am ollld [16:57] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I'm just 4 years in [16:57] Caine MacIntyre (commandhat): Does that help, Skye? [16:58] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): oh you're still a baby then nevaeh hahaha

[16:58] Skye Winchester: That would be great if it's true that it was disclosed, that's what I'm genuinely wondering, how many products. [16:58] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): it scares the crap out of me that ive been in here for 16 years [16:58] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): My AV just hit 20 [16:58] Vicious Witch: Skye is right, it was proven to be Gen AI, the creator even admit to it. Then Kiana Writer had the audacity to fling someone out of the group for voicing a concern as well as asking them to fix this and not use the AI anymore. As customers it's our right to decide what we want to support and not to support. Being petty about it won't help the cause. [16:58] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I am but I will say I feel like I caught on quickly, I love it here [16:58] Skye Winchester: And Jules tried to kick me just now but because my SL is so much fun, I'm still in this chat [16:59] Skye Winchester: And being rude to people who have genuine questions is absolutely ridiculous, y'all, come on. [16:59] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): im glad you love it Nevaeh :) honestly i just came back after a hiatus and im re learning and finding new fun places XD [16:59] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): I wonder what sl will be like by the time I hit my double digits [17:00] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): Hopefully less TP crashed

[17:00] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): Crashes. [17:00] Atheria Għøυł-Bae (atheria.vampurr): righttttt [17:00] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): that will be fun to find out..its crazy how much has changed. [17:01] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): ugh i dont think tp issues will ever be fully solved, but at least our shoes arent in our butts anymore [17:01] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): LOL I think I've been experiencing tp crashes lately more than usual [17:01] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): SHOES IN OUR BUTTS? [17:01] Calvin (genemc): yes… even when just logging in [17:01] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): yessss it was hilaaarious [17:01] RíƖҽყ Sɳσσԃʅҽ-Aɱσɾҽ (riley.amore): Same, when I log in I have to relog imediatly most times [17:02] Skye Winchester: Alright, who is the actual creator since everyone in this chat lost the plot and I'll go log in my alt and message them since my IMs are wacky [17:02] Calvin (genemc): You've been in SL for 6 years and don't know how to figure that our yourself? [17:03] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): we are just moving on from the conversation skye. you said your piece and we have nothing further to add. [17:03] Calvin (genemc) facepalms [17:03] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): big facepalms indeed [17:04] Calvin (genemc): You've been in SL for 6 years and don't know how to figure that our yourself? [17:04] Skye Winchester: Kiana is the creator of the group, and she clearly does not want to deal with any commentary, or Jules. [17:04] Maple Moose (drakona.lewellen): Thankfully for anyone that doesn't want GenAI in the stuff they buy, there are resources for that c:

[17:04] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): thats cool maple [17:05] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): ugh im trying to remember the name of the chair i bought like 5 years ago. (rummaging…) [17:05] Caine MacIntyre (commandhat): I will add one more thing, then snooze the chat. It's possible to like things without liking the creator. I'l going to continue to buy BackBone regardless of their AI use. That doesn't mean I support their ideals, it just means I like BackBone. I'll vote with my wallet when that tactic doesn't exclude a supermassive majority of the things I otherwise need to survive. [17:06] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): if you bought it in store you can possible check the vendor [17:06] Skye Winchester: And I want to be aware of the items I want to purchase using any sort of AI. Especially at the prices [17:06] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): mm good idea nevaeh. i hae too much inventory to remember anything haha [17:07] Katty TopHat: Hey Skye…read the room [17:07] Calvin (genemc): trolls just want attention [17:07] Skye Winchester: I am, it's clear y'all don't care, and that's fine, but I won't be shouted over because you don't care. [17:07] Myka Winchester: Just because she doesn't subscribe to the group mentality shown here, doesn't mean her concerns aren't valid. [17:08] Katty TopHat: and I'm not saying her concerns aren't valid, but to keep saying the same things over and over doesn't change it [17:08] Skye Winchester: The fact that Jules tried to eject me from the group without saying a dang thing and other people being thrown out for voicing their opinion is not reflecting well, and y'all just licking the boots. [17:08] Katty TopHat: smh [17:08] Skye Winchester: People keep asking what my question was, what am I supposed to say "you missed it, sorry" [17:09] Roonani Phade (tersa.beverly): AHA. found the darn chair. its a pouffe. headdesks [17:09] Calvin (genemc): We're customers. Stop trying to stir us up and go have a rational conversation with the right person, if it's that important to you. [17:09] ღ νıҳɛŋ Pнøɛŋıҳ (vixenbelle): Could always block and move on.. its what I do when I find someon annoying or what have you. [17:09] Avery Għøυł-Bae (avery.bae): So I have questions but don't want to keep shit going. [17:09] ღ νıҳɛŋ Pнøɛŋıҳ (vixenbelle): someone* [17:10] Skye Winchester: I thought I was asking the right people, meaning the mods of the group, and there was no reply and I was ready to let the matter drop until I was belittled and told 'best take it elsewhere' like I'm in a sundown town run by racists. [17:11] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): Oh wow [17:11] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): That's wild [17:11] Nevaeh Lockhart (itsintuitive): but anyways Imma have to check that pouffe out [17:12] Calvin (genemc): Pouffe sounds more like a pastry than a chair

Then, just now... as I'm typing this. (I'm still somehow in the chat despite being ejected.)

[18:08] Kiana Writer: Thank you all for your support ♥ We truly appreciate it and apologize for the silence, while we were getting the team together to address the concerns as quickly as we could.

[18:24] Skye Winchester: While ejecting people who were asking genuinely? The Gen AI thing isn't even as wild as the PR crisis you just gave yourself. God speed y'all, you'll need it.

[18:27] Calvin (genemc) facepalms [18:28] Kiana Writer: Instead of reaching out to us Skye, you started this group. That's not ok. The only people ejected were you for group harassment and the person posting chat logs on social media. That's not ok. A simple notecard or IM would have been sufficient. That's all I will say about this to you knowing this will end up screenshotted too.

[18:31] Rain McKenna: I must have Skye blocked, cuz i haven't seen anything, but is this mess REALLY still going on an hour later? [18:31] Skye Winchester: I did not start anything, I asked a question about it after someone else did out of concern, not once did a single admin or mod reach out to me in this chat or this group to address it or tell me to stop. I only got dogpiled on by members of this group. And as for posting chat logs, I'm about to post mine with everything and I don't care, cause group messages are not against TOS. [18:31] Kiana Writer: Nope! Not anymore Rain! We do have a new group gift in the store, have you grabbed that yet? :) [18:31] Skye Winchester: But yeah, good luck. [18:31] Rain McKenna: Thank goodness. <3 Ooooh, nope, I sure will pop right in! [18:32] Kiana Writer: Also excited to announce the new Monthly Mystery Madness Theme: Valentine's Vault! ♥ Pre-orders begin Feb 1st and the boxes will be out on the 10th already to enjoy on time for Valentine's Day! ;)

Ironic Rain McKenna decided to pop her head up when she cost my best friend's estate about $300 USD for squatting on his region after he died and LL still thought it was active even though she was told to pick up her shit and go while I tried to get it shut down but I digress.

Anyways, this is long as hell and I did barely anything but copy and paste it, record has been recorded, do with this as you will!

The update:

10:20pm est 1/29/2025

Update 2

Ultra is fighting for his life in my comments to justify AI use by Madpea and Backbone as being 'past tense', despite current proof being held.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi Nalyra!

Could you please expand on what you mean by ‘huge potential there’ regarding Louis and Daniel possibly getting the TOTBT-plot next season? If that is what you mean? Would love to know what you speculate? Plz do tell! Of course it’s very early days, but I think you’re right if you think they are doing that plot at some point - Rolin basically flat out said so I think? And Raglan James' whole deal and him asking for reciprocation is a still an unresolved plot line (I know some people think it’s the Talamasca getting to edit the book, but they always had that opportunity when they became Daniel's only potential publisher).

However, do you really think that plot takes place before Louis' and Daniel's conversation at the end of the last episode? I just don’t’ really get the sense that they have been on another separate ‘adventure’ already there. Also wouldn’t it be too confusing to have that episode imply that Armand turned Daniel in Dubai to then change it so drastically? Sure the show sometimes shows one thing and then reveals another to be the case, but i don't know… It also doesn't seem to be the case in light of Rolin's comments. I'm happy to be wrong though!

I do personally think Daniel's turning is a disappointment, as it occurs off-screen and may have been out of spite/hatred. Also because if DM didn't happen in the past that means we lose out completely on a humanDaniel/VampireArmand relationship dynamic, as they've already turned Daniel. Which makes me a bit sad, as a lot of the most important aspects around DM is kinda built around that. And if they are doing an enemies-to-lovers thing instead, that’s even more reason to show the turning - as it mirrors ep5 and becomes a vital part of their relationship story. I just find it so weird to skip that completely (I understand skipping it in ep8 but then say they won’t revisit it at all is disappointing, and a bit boring writing frankly). But I’m trying to have faith in that the show writers know what they are doing and that the DM relationship will be interesting and actually explored.

All this to say that I like the idea that there might be more to Daniel’s turning - I really liked the idea of them doing it in connection with TOTBT plot. But given that Daniel has already been turned I don’t think they are going to have him in some way be turned again. Of course one alternative would be to have that plot have taken place already, but given Louis and Daniel’s conversation at the end of ep8 I don’t think so? I don’t have any idea on how they might do TOTBT though, nor what Louis’s and Daniel’s plots will be about next season. Rolin did say they were setting up plots for them in interviews.

Would love to hear your thoughts! Thank you!

I definitely think there is more to Daniel's turning. There might be more to Daniel's turning than Louis knows, too!! I mean, Louis says it was "out of spite" - but we know Louis' memories were edited, and especially around that time frame of San Francisco back then. Louis... might simply not know.

Personally I think part of DM happened in the past... and the inverse chase might happen in the present. I'd love that, actually^^. It would open up the mirroring in a really nice way, too, while keeping the dynamic extremely interesting, in both past and present.

If TtotBT happened already, or if Daniel is really a vampire already? We'll see :)

As per TtotBT:

The thing about doing that plot with Louis and Daniel, and maybe omitting David and even Gretchen is the following (which >I< find extremely interesting):

We know they want to keep Louis more involved. Louis and Lestat have that weird "Netflix and chill era" then in the books. They visit each other, often. Have stuff at each other's houses. And so on. By not "only" keeping Louis for the scene later in the story where Lestat wants him to turn him again, Louis is then (likely) pulled into the whole sickness and seeing Claudia phase. The trouble with Marius (that is only hinted at in the book but might be expanded in the show).

Daniel and Louis both are strong enough to find ways to do the chase, and as said before, personally I wonder if the changing eye colors of Daniel have something to do with the "proof of concept" that Rolin hinted at when he said he would need to establish the concept of a soul.

Now, you need the concept of a soul for body switching, spirits, and, of course ghosts (and the Memnoch adventure I guess, but I doubt they'll do that one).

Claudia's ghost being there, and being something Lestat sees would be a huge pull for Louis. In the books he suffers from the fact that he never saw her (until the end of Merrick, and it is debatable if that was really her ghost then).

Daniel in turn would be along of course because he has relations with Raglan - maybe he even let Raglan experiment with body switching before, hence the changing eye color. I think there is a high chance this might be the "favor" Raglan asks of him. And then, when Raglan knows he can... he steals Lestat's body.

Which would make Daniel in part responsible, or at least he might feel that way. I think he and Lestat will get along like a house on fire actually, at least eventually, and him then being responsible for maybe introducing? Facilitating? the theft might be the reason why he tags along.

Daniel, with his already established connections to the Talamasca might be the one to connect to their side - while Louis will maybe be the one to.... soften the blows from the vampiric side. We'll see.

A lot will depend on whether the show will actually "have David" - and in what capacity.

But I think, as said, that the changing eye color likely was a hint... and I don't think show Louis would stay away, even if he would hold to his principles - especially not if he knows Lestat sees the ghost of their daughter.

[thewertsearch]

Ask Comp 19/10

That's true - we don't know for sure that Trollian can fully emulate Sburb's surveillance capabilities.

If the trolls were sufficiently motivated, though, they wouldn't actually need to. Sollux could probably hack one of the kids' computers, to gain access to their Sburb viewport - although if he did, he wouldn't need a camera to snoop on their messages.

Is there a paranoia Aspect? I think I've finally found my calling.

anonymous asked: heya! ive just finished re-reading your ENtIRE liveblog and i to send asks about some stuff but i waited to finish so im sendind everything at once! (im gonna send stuff in a bunch of small asks so cat can stop just one instead of the whole thing in case of accidental spoilers) (aslo hi cat!) (also its ninnoy, havent sent an ask in a while but i changed my pfp to something slightly more spoilery so im in anon now) [...] the jade pen pal thing, do you have any new theories on who it could be?

None! I'm sure that it's someone derived from Grandpa Harley, but everything else is a mystery.

I have no particular theories about who he is, how he knows Jade, where he got his hands on so many endgame weapons, or why he's got such an antiquated accent if he's watching movies from the 80s. I assume time travel is involved, but that doesn't really narrow anything down in a comic like this. He (she? they?) is a complete enigma, and I'll just have to wait to learn more.

ALsO WHEREs YOUR sONAs? we havent seen them in so long im afraid sahlle might have actueally died of meteor strike (joking of course) also have you realized that "sally" and "cat" are both one letter of from a valid kid name? you could lend her one of your "L"s

I've actually been workshopping some Quest stuff for Sahlee this week! I suppose I'd need to figure out her Title first, though, and for that, I'd need to get a more solid idea of her personality, and how her experiences on Alternia have shaped her.

in one of your last posts you seemed to imply that the multiverse exists inside the timeline, but ive always read it as the opposite, the timeline inside the universe that would explain why the trolls can pick any time from the humans universe to talk to them but cant have private conversations with their own futute/past selves, its not an inherent part of trollian, they are just outside the human timeline (the memos are still trollian being time fucky) dont know if that makes any difference but its a thought also i realize the tag may be unecessary due to my quirk, but its too late to stop now

(NOTE: quirk omitted for readability, but the substitutions are [t -> 7, s -> 2] - sort of a variant of Sollux's quirk. I actually don't think we've seen any quirks which add a 7, so the voice here is distinct from any trolls we've seen so far. I like it!)

Originally, my assumption was that each timeline contained a duplicate of the entire multiverse. Doomed timelines don't seem to let you communicate with other universes/dimensions, though, so they don't need to contain other sectors of reality. I'm currently of the opinion that doomed timelines only contain an instance of the dimension they were doomed in. The only timeline which contains the entire multiverse is the Alpha.

This mechanic keeps doomed timelines simple, but in-universe, I don't know why it exists. Much like the Alpha itself, it's a mystery I can only speculate about.

has the shipping chart been updated since the last time we saw it? also you (at some point) said that equius<>feferi was a controversial ship so i had to go back to check the notes and i was the only person i found talkig about it so i guess im the whole controversy? if thats the case i would like to thank you for recognizing me as the equius<>feferi number 1 hater (all jokes of course)

I got a few skeptical asks about Equius<>Feferi, but you're the only one who discussed it on the post itself. I guess by some measures, you are the most dedicated hater, because your hate was posted publicly! 🤣

I could make one or two changes, but I don't want to post a new chart until the kids meet the trolls in person, hopefully at the end of the Act!

The Scratch, naturally - but I'm also looking forward to seeing exactly how WV was Exiled. He's currently on Skaia, and Jack has lost interest in him, so who's actually sending him through the portal?

Tavros is barely a presence on the Land he's ostensibly the hero of, and all of his actions are being dictated by a third party who can physically control his body. This third party does not acknowledge or respect Tavros's own desires, effectively forcing him to play the game in a way that she personally approves of.

She claims it will make him stronger.

@bladekindeyewear submitted: That was a long, thorough, and fantastic response! It's fascinating seeing your opinion on these things-- and I'm glad to see that considering the questions we've given you seems to have made you more paranoid. But I'm just not entirely sure you're paranoid ENOUGH. Not yet. Much like how you just found that "BREEZE" quote in your Breath research, back at around the time you've now reached in the comic, we had dozens of theory-miners combing back through everything that had been said and shown in Homestuck, over and over again, searching for anything we might have missed that might have been of some importance. [...] So, uh….. how do I put this… Would you prefer to strictly handle that sort of thing all by yourself, as you've said? Which I'd agree is still the best way that you should keep to, for the most part? Or would you mind if I gave you just a CRUMB of an example, only one? A tiny bit of text that we in the theory community only found at about the time you've reached in the comic, even though it was more than a thousand pages earlier?

Shit, this is such a dilemma. I'm honestly really torn.

See, I'd probably find old fandom theories absolutely fascinating to analyze. I'd love to know how closely my ideas align with those of the early Homestuck fandom, and whether I'm saying anything really out-of-pocket. My analysis of Sollux's ~ATH script was apparently an original theory, and it's honestly one my proudest moments.

But that's also sort of the problem, isn't it? If I dive too deeply into other people's fan theories, they'll start to affect my own - and if I'm introduced to a really compelling fan theory, it could end up replacing any homegrown theories that I could have developed in lieu of it. If someone had send me a well-reasoned ~ATH theory before I did my own analysis, I'd probably have been less motivated to make the analysis in the first place. After all, many of my questions would already have been answered by a clever theory I just read.

People are free to send me their own off-the-cuff opinions on what's happening in the comic, or their own takes on any meta I write. I get a lot of asks like that, and they're some of my favorites.

Obviously there's a fine line here, and whether a given ask is a theory or just an opinion is a little subjective - but in my opinion, the influence that asks and submissions have had on my analysis has been relatively minor. I don't think many of my theories have been spawned from an ask, or killed by one.

This is a little different, though, because it's part of a theory that was crowdsourced over several years. It doesn't sound like something that could be inferred by an individual, so I'm not sure if it's something an individual liveblogger should necessarily know about? If I start crowdsourcing my analysis, my theories will be less Wertsearch and more fandom consensus, and I don't think I'd enjoy that as much.

I really want to know, but I think I'll enjoy the liveblog more if I don't. When I finish the comic, I'll gleefully analyze any fan theory that anyone sends me - but for now, I'll just have to wonder, and come up with theories of my own!

Yeah, we've really been getting into it with Vriska lately. I've enjoyed trying to explain and predict her actions, and I'm glad people don't think I'm going overboard when trying to analyze her.

When a character does something interesting, I don't like to move on until I have a theory about why they did it. Sure, it may be refuted later, but it needs to be something that's consistent with what I currently know about their personality.

Vriska takes a particularly long time to puzzle out in this way. Her motivations are derived from a complex web (lol) of factors, including Scratch, Spidermom, her rivalry with Terezi, her horrendous relationship with Tavros, classism, teenage hormones, quadrant politics, highblood society and the Alternian culture of violence. They all inform her decisions, and any combination of them could have been the catalyst for the latest Vriska Incident.

I want characters to make sense to me, and Vriska is written to deliberately challenge my attempt to achieve this. Her meta is fun to write, so I'm glad it's also fun to read!

[procuder]

what is this.

Seriously, like, what on earth is happening. What on earth is happening here. I thought it would turn out better, but no, I raised my hopes too high.

How they portray og Lloyd's character??? Like, god excuse me Lee Hyunmin-nim, but what the hell??? Are you? ???????????

At first, I didn't think it would be this bad. What makes you think that Lloyd's mistreatment of Javier for so long was simply because he didn't know what to do when he was a kid, and he always wanted to be Javier's friend? I was quite interested in Lloyd's character. So this is it. FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT THE HELL??????????????

It was almost good, because, of course, he felt inferior to Javier when Arcos adopted him. It's normal for a 10-year-old to feel jealous and feel like they're about to steal their affection, especially if that child looks better than them in every way. And especially if they know that they will never be like that because they don't think they are good enough. Of course, that's just his own pov btw. I already know how much his family loves him. But that's what can happen, right? Because I don't like who I am also, and I know in my heart that my family loves me, but still🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

And yes that shit happened. So 😮‍💨

BUT IF. IF. If he could think like whatever you made him in the webcomic, he would have done it a long time ago. If this were his actual character's trait, he would have done it long ago. I didn't even think he'd apologize for something like this and in this way, you know? He always thought that he would change something in his life in the next life instead of. Yeah. Whatever tf he is doing in the webcomic here. I won't argue with you that Lloyd feels guilty for his family. But. Not with Javier. He hated Javier as much as Javier hated him, and he always would. I really wonder what makes you see Lloyd like that? Great. Now people who only read webcomic will 😮‍💨😮‍💨🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ SHAKING MY HEAD.

“I'm sorry I broke that wooden sword. Actually, I want to be friends." MY ASS what????? Is this where you sacrifice so many details for?? what??? I have so many things to say, but my God. I'M DONE.

And more than that, you changed Lloyd's will just because he was reincarnated as Suho? He doesn't want to deal with human stuff anymore, and he wants to be reincarnated as a whale because he doesn't like the stuffy atmosphere of hell. Yes, that's it. Easy and simple. The funny idea of someone who has been hiding in hell for a long time and fears of being eaten by the devil. But now you have changed him to want to be reincarnated as a human again to be a better person and work harder than Suho???

Excuse me, WHAT? He wants to work hard?? What makes you think that way out of all his character? Oh my god, they also cut out the scene where Javier, despite not liking Lloyd, wishes him a good new life. Huh? Okay??

THEY EVEN CHANGED HOW TIME RUNS. What is the point. WHAT IS THE POINT??? How important is it to change it? How important is it? From 1 month = 1 day to 1 month = 1 hour?? I wonder if there's any need for you to change it. Are you making a new story or adapting it?

But considering the fact that bk_moon approved every change, then it was...okay, never mind.

Anyway this chapter is pain hold your disappointment before reading it...😭

Oh yes, more than 3 times of Hellkaros thoughts of wanting to go home were completely omitted and now Javier and Lloyd were going to find the Dragon King. Great.

:(

I want my cookies back.